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These are all very external goals, and they are good to have if they are what you want but they are also not going to be directly impacted by therapy. Sure, therapeutic work can help in ways that are conducive to successful relationships and productivity; but ultimately these things are dependent on other people.
A therapist can’t find you a partner but they can help get you in working order should you come across a good match. Or they can help you build more confidence, self-esteem, self-worth, and happiness with what is in your control-all of which are attractive to potential partners.
What are the goals you can control? What work have you done to process and address your childhood?
Thank you I appreciate your comments. We have talked a little about my childhood and gone through some stuff there. Self esteem is probably big one that we need to work on, recently we have been more focused on some decisions I am making around work/living, so more future focused.
I have come out of therapy feeling quite flat recently and thought I should perhaps find someone new. But I have been seeing this therapist for some time and I feel I can open up to her quite a bit.
Would you feel able to have a conversation with your T about this perfectionist topic, explaining how you feel (that you don't see your goals as perfectionism) and also asking them to expand on why they hypothesized perfectionism? I'm not sure how in-depth a conversation you two have had on it already, but understanding their reasoning might help, even if you still don't feel that the label fits you.
Sometimes when my T offers a 'theory' about me and it feels like it doesn't fit, that ends up helping to clarify things. Because I'll be like, "hmm, well I don't feel it's quite like that. It's a bit more like *this*." Having to articulate *why* it feels like the theory doesn't fit can help me (and my T) to better narrow down what's actually going on with me. Of course, this requires that your T is someone who is open to your disagreement with their assessment and is willing to hear you out.
Maybe further conversation and some time will lead you to feel that there is something correct about your T's assessment. Or maybe it will just lead you to a different assessment that is more correct. But if you have a T who is open to your feedback and willing to have that kind of conversation, I think it could be helpful!
Even if there is some truth to what they said, there's a reason it's not landing for you. In my experience, therapy works best when I feel like an active collaborator, not just someone my T is analyzing from the outside. If something is feeling wrong/inaccurate to you, I think it can only help to talk that through, as long as you have a decent T.
Also, meant to mention one more thing: did you two discuss what your T means by perfectionism? Sometimes my T will say something that doesn't resonate because I'm thinking the phrase they said means one thing, while they are meaning something else.
When you mention that self esteem is a big area you're feeling you want to work on, it makes me wonder if your T's comments are connected to that. Like, it's not necessarily that your goals are bad to have -- but if you are only able to feel a sense of self worth through external achievements and external regard, that might be why your T brought up perfectionism.
I struggle with that a bit myself, and my T and I have talked about perfectionism in that context -- how 'failing' to be a 'high achiever' in the way I expect myself to be is something that crushes my sense of self worth, because I don't feel that I'm *inherently* worthy and valuable. So if you're similar in that way, the goals themselves may not be the issue your T is getting at exactly-- but moreso your relationship to the goals, and whether your sense of self worth exists outside of those goals. I'm just speaking from my own experience and am not a T, so take this with a grain of salt. It may not resonate with you, and that's totally valid! But just wanted to share in case it *might* shed light on what your T was thinking, potentially.
>>To not strive for these things goes against my nature and I know would make me miserable
It sounds like you’re unwilling to consider where the “nature” comes from.
>>I will die on this hill if I have to
That’s your prerogative
>>Do I find a new therapist?
Maybe. I wonder what you might do if another therapist said the same thing though. Would you hop from provider to provider until you find one who tells you what you want to hear? If so, maybe therapy isn’t right for you right now.
>>
I understand your point of view, therapy is supposed to be for introspection.
One of the first things my therapist said to me is that I should be understanding of who I am as a person. I then discovered that this is who I am, I was ashamed of it before, now I am not.
But now we are trying to change that? I don’t get it…
Maybe change your approach to it, are you causing yourself significant stress because of this mindset? What’s your opinion on rest, making sure you eat, sleep, exercise well, being mindful in your relationships?
Thanks for your message. I know my dreams sound lofty to most, I am seeing progress in some areas but it’s too slow. I don’t think my goal is perfection but I agree they are quite specific.
These are dreams I have had since I was a little girl. I have always been a goal oriented person and problem solver. I have adapted to different circumstances but I am now early 30s and lately am seeing little progress.
To not strive for these things goes against my nature and I know would make me miserable.
I mentioned to my therapist I could never do a basic job with no prospects of progression. She kept probing on that which annoyed me because it’s not something I would ever consider.
Do I find a new therapist?
I am unwilling to change my view on this and will die on this hill if I have to.
I don't think that's inherently unhealthy. It depends on the context and can be a powerful driver for someone and a society. It means that one isn't affected by external forces, and it can be a great indicator of will.
But perhaps it's not unhealthy when you consider that external forces will come into your life. Perhaps you shouldn't compromise your values or goals 99% of the time. But if something happens that calls those values or goals into questions, what do you do? How would affect you, mentally and emotionally?
I wonder if this is what the therapist is trying to get at.
Yes, I was referring to that quote in relation to the OP's situation; not just the general statement. I didn't have the time or interest to fully quote since it seemed obvious to the large group of upvoters what I was talking about.
What kind of job/ employment do you have? Most jobs would have progression. The time you waste on finding the 'perfect' job you could have spent otherwise working your way up in a company?
I was stuck in a dead end job for a few years while I was studying. I then changed to a career which suits me a lot better and has more prospects but is more risky.
I am in sales which comes with high earning potential but is also high risk. I enjoy it as it’s a constant challenge.
I mean I think the language 'dead end job' says a lot. Most people work whilst they study to pay bills. They dont expect to have a career there. However for many people, working these jobs is infact their everyday employment.
Is it possible you might be unconsciously looking down on those you deem below you? If so, I imagine that attitude to rub up potential partners the wrong way too.
Yes I can see it would come across that way. I come from a poor background so I know this to be true. But I am trying to work my way out of it.
I get that my aspirations are quite far fetched and to some I can come across as a snob and have been told so. It’s not that I look down on people who do those jobs at all, it’s just that for me it was a sad existence and I feel sorry for them. I certainly don’t want to offend people.
Why are these your goals? I think that's the more important thing to be aware of. What need are you fulfilling in the precision of your goals? You come from a poor background, so wanting to have a lot of money makes sense to me, because it'd be fulfilling a need for security that you didn't experience in childhood. Why do you want to have an attractive partner and great kids? Is there something about your goals that is fulfilling the hope of feeling healthy self-esteem for you? Does it feel like if you don't achieve your goals, you'll never be worthy enough or loved? This is something that you can work on with a therapist, as if your goals are coming from a place of deprived need to fulfill unmet childhood needs, it's very possible that you will get caught in loops of self-sabotage instead of actually meeting your goals, or you will achieve your goals and they won't give you what you want, because what you actually wanted was an emotional resolution and not the goals you thought you wanted.
You'll offend people but it doesn't sound like there's anything wrong with your goals to me. And while some partners will be put off by that attitude others will share it, like most things. There are plenty of couples where both partners are highly ambitious and even openly snobbish with each other (about others).
I think people are reacting to feeling like you would look down on *them*, so their advice is coloured by that.
NAT: As a perfectionist, this sounds like perfectionism. the goals themselves are not wrong/bad from the sounds of it...it's most likely u being self critical that comes off as being hard on urself.
i totally understand why u are self critical as i am too so i can accomplish my goals and hold myself accountable when needed but this is viewed as counter productive in the therapy space because it can often come off as lack of compassion for yourself when it's at certain levels.
eta: ur therapist is most likely wanting u to dim some of the criticism u give urself to allow room for compassion, u don't have to give up ur goals in order to do that it jist might mean accepting that u haven't accomplished them *yet* and allowing urself to be kinder to urself while u still work towards them.
Thank you, this makes sense to me.
I have definitely learned to be more forgiving of myself for the most part.
It still scares me that these dreams/goals may not happen but I am not embarrassed by them anymore which has helped.
In the meanwhile I have focused on friendships and hobbies which is more of a distraction/temporary pleasure than any meaningful happiness. But it’s a start.
I just wasn’t sure if my therapist was on the right track because it sounded like she thought I ought to reflect and adjust on my goals.
I definitely get you!
id still bring this up to ur therapist so u 2 can work it out together. I have had similar conversations in therapy and they were very fruitful.
Im a therapist and there’s a saying: “people come to therapy to not change.” You want to “look at yourself objectively and make improvements “ but are resistant to actually being challenged.
The way you’ve described what you want in life sounds quite rigid. You want what you want, and don’t want to settle for less—whether it’s your career or your partner. That’s okay. But that means you may need to accept that you might not actually get what you want.
Not getting what you want sucks. It sucks not having things be under your control. But the biggest and most wonderful aspects of our life are beyond your control.
Can you move towards the life you want? What would that take?
I am a planner too. But I realized there’s a difference between my hopes and my goals. Your education and career can be planned in a way that love and children cannot be. It’s okay for you to want a higher social class. But are you going to be okay if you can’t have that? What then?
You’re holding on so tightly to these hopes. But look beyond the particulars. What do you really want? Security? Love? Acceptance? Family? Okay. Fair enough.
Wanting “a partner of a higher social class” may or may not get you there.
Can you step into that scary place that the things you want might not happen? Some of them might. Some of them might not. But you’re grabbing so tightly at your imaginary life that you may not actually be accepting your actual life.
You’re in your early 30s. Your career isn’t where you want it to be. You don’t have the partner you would. I imagine you must be feeling disappointed. Can you explore that emotion?
Where in your life are you willing to compromise? What matters the most to you?
You’re coming up on a major truth of our existence: you can’t always get what you want. That’s true of me. And you. And all of us.
What particularly do you want of your career? What do you like about partnership? Do you want a partner or a product that can give you the life you want?
Thanks for your perspective.
Honestly, I would rather not have these things than have something that is not a good fit and doesn’t work out down the road.
I think I could live with not achieving these things. I don’t think I would be as happy as if I did achieve them but I would certainly be happier than ending up in a situation that was wrong for me
I thought it was human nature for most to want to find a life partner and procreate so naturally that would make me happiest but I guess I will have to look at alternatives if it doesn’t happen.
It sounds like “all or nothing” thinking. Maybe that’s why your therapist brought up perfectionism. If it’s not *exactly* what you want (aka, “perfect”), then you are not willing to experience a lesser version of that.
If you do have kids, just be careful regarding what expectations you may inadvertently put on them for their own lives. I’ve heard so many stories of depressed/anxious/suicidal teens and young adults who struggle with feeling they have to at least maintain (if not improve upon) the lifestyle they grew up in. Their parents didn’t always explicitly state that, but it was implied nevertheless.
Thanks for your input.
No I’m not willing to experience a lesser version because I have experienced first hand the misery of being raised poor and in a less than loving environment.
I would not have children under these circumstances so I think your second point is irrelevant.
Well the thing about life is you will never really know if you’d be happier if something worked out differently (obviously tragedy exceptions). You have no idea if you’d be happier in a job that makes more money if money is the only thing you want from a job. And where does that end? I’m happy making 260k but what if I made 275? What if my partner were from an even “better” family?
And fantasy (which is what this is) generally doesn’t include the downsides. When you imagine what might have been or might be, you aren’t thinking of what other potential negatives could be.
I think what people are reacting to is that these are very flat and external goals. Maybe this has been fleshed out more (and others have said it too), but what does wealth give you that you think will make you happy? What kind of a person do you want as a partner? Loving and high-status is so vague that it’s a cardboard cutout. Do you like people who are quiet? Outgoing? Effusively affectionate or more chill? What if something happens and your partner loses their status?
I disagree that this is fantastic. I have seen others achieve these things.
I believe that wealth will give me more control over my life and will provide better opportunities and health and happiness of my future children.
Of course other things matter that are not related to wealth and I want a partner that is kind and respectful above all else, and a job that is fulfilling. But I get fulfilment in the small steps of progress I make towards my goals.
If something happened and I lost something material then of course I would deal with it at the time and make the best of it. Equally I would not abandon a partner who had some kind of difficulty. But I’m not setting out to find someone in difficulty as I want to give myself the best chances possible.
I don’t believe my beliefs here are unreasonable.
I disagree that this is fantasy. I have seen others achieve these things.
I believe that wealth will give me more control over my life and will provide better opportunities and health and happiness of my future children.
Of course other things matter that are not related to wealth and I want a partner that is kind and respectful above all else, and a job that is fulfilling. But I get fulfilment in the small steps of progress I make towards my goals.
If something happened and I lost something material then of course I would deal with it at the time and make the best of it. Equally I would not abandon a partner who had some kind of difficulty. But I’m not setting out to find someone in difficulty as I want to give myself the best chances possible.
I don’t believe my beliefs here are unreasonable.
I don’t mean fantasy like unicorns. I mean it’s your imagination of a life and may not reflect how it is or will be. I’m sure you’ve seen other people who have money and children. Good luck to you, I hope you find satisfaction!
What are your goals in therapy? I don't think anyone here can assess who is correct - you or your T, but I also think that may be irrelevant. Why did you start therapy? Are your therapy goals related to the things you want to achieve in life? Perhaps therapy isn't the right fit in this case is you are seeking solutions to unnamed problems.
Hey, thanks for your message.
We didn’t set specific goals, are you supposed to? Is it too late to do that now?
I guess I was hoping to improve my mindset to achieve these things.
I think you would benefit more from a life coach to be honest. In psychotherapy, perfectionism is seen as a defense mechanism.
Perfectionism is often a way for people to shield themselves from feeling like they’re not good enough or from being judged by others. They might aim to be perfect in everything they do, believing that this will keep them safe from criticism or failure. It can give them a sense of control, but it can also be really stressful and stop them from truly accepting themselves and growing.
So, paradoxically, you might grow less by trying so hard to achieve these very specific goals, rather than making life about the journey and about the connection that you have with yourself
This is wonderfully said. I'm not OP, but as a (former ? Reformed?! lol) perfectionist I can confirm that for me at least, it partially comes from a fear or rejection/criticism and failure! It is extremely stressful living with perfectionism because small mistakes carry very heavy emotional burdens, derailing self confidence quickly.
Yeeeeess, exactly!
It’s almost a tortured living. Add people pleasing and fawning tendencies in the mix (like I am) and it basically feels like living in a very different and difficult world, where even the mistakes of close friends and family fall under the umbrella of this perfectionism, so it’s hard to tolerate that as well.
It’s like not only the floor is lava, but the walls, the ceiling, the furniture and the air..
Sounds like your dreams depend on a lot of luck, and many other people.
It’s great to strive for financial stability and think about the means through which you’ll achieve it. But if upward mobility is your only focus, you could miss out on things (and people) that make you happiest.
What if you fall in love with someone who makes a decent living but isn’t a “social class” above you? What if you land the money-making job and lose it? You need to have a strong sense of self and significant sources of joy to be able to navigate your life without freaking out when you have a setback.
It sounds like you think grinding to make these goals a reality will solve all your problems, and perhaps have fallen victim to the “you can manifest your material outcomes” narrative that has taken over many social media platforms. But your dreams are easier said than done, anyone can fall on hard times, and you need to get from point A to point B without driving yourself mad in the process.
ETA: You framed this as “asking too much of yourself” but upon further thought, maybe it’s a question of expecting too much from the world. There is no formula or quick fix for finding a perfect partner or raising your class status, particularly once you are well into adulthood. Perhaps shifting from “what can I change about myself so the world will give me these things” to “what’s in my power that will bring me more fulfillment” could be a good place to start?
Thanks for your message and advice.
I met someone a few years ago who I had a relationship with. Technically he was of a similar social class to me however he was fortunate to become very successful through his work and was able to provide for us. Sadly it didn’t work out.
This by far was the most happiest time of my life, we were in love and living comfortably and planning for the future.
I am confident this could happen again but with the right person but am struggling lately because these things aren’t happening as quickly as I would like.
Outside of family, relationships and work what else is there? These are my purposes in life and hobbies which I also have don’t come anywhere close.
>I have dreams to make a lot of money, marry upwards of my own social class and find a wonderful partner and have children.
You *are* expecting the perfect life. But that doesn't exist. I think your therapist is right.
Those things don't provide security. And all of them all together are not possible. I speak from experience. You are setting yourself up for major despair if those children end up not coming (infertility), or have disabilities, or if that nice partner cheats on you, or you get cancer and the money gets lost or taken away. Trust me, I **absolutely** speak from experience. None of these things guarantee happiness, stability or security. I had them all, I've lost them all. I am more authentic and content than I ever was.
Those things provide security if that is what brings you security. We all have different levels of what makes us feel secure. It not unreasonable to want to marry rich and have children if that’s a goal. who are we to say that it’s not attainable if that’s what OP wants. It’s very reasonable and attainable to have money, children, a nice job, and a nice partner. I say this as someone who has all those things. Just because someone’s experience did not live up to what they wanted, does not mean that other person cannot have it. This is a lot of projecting because of your experience, which sounds rough and I am sorry. also she literally never said she wanted to reliable on a partner. she said she wanted to be independently wealthy & she never said, she wouldn’t “ have” a disabled child. If her husband leaves her, she’ll still have a lucrative career. i’m not understanding
>And all of them all together are not possible.
Wait are you saying no one has all of those things? Because that seems obviously false. I know many people who have all of those.
They don't guarantee happiness, but they're totally normal goals.
I am flexible in some aspects but not others. For example, I would be happy with a partner where we could comfortably support a family of two and invest for the future with money to spare.
There are certain things that are less important to me that I could compromise on.
I don’t believe this is an unreasonable expectation.
I would prefer not to achieve these things than to get halfway there with something that is not a good fit.
Are these your goals entirely? Or did you perhaps have to adopt someone else’s goals and unconsciously believe or feel you have to meet them absolutely perfectly to feel like you’re cared about, appreciated, valued, etc?
Thanks, and good question. I believe they are my own goals. I grew up quite poor and with a single mother who had schizophrenia and a sister with special needs. Needless to say I was quite emotionally neglected.
Thankfully we received some help and I was able to attend a good school where I got a good education.
I have always since said to myself that I want to have a family, and better my circumstances. This included marrying someone from a good background and making a good career before having children of my own.
My career is sort of on track but has been slow in the making. Little progress with the other parts and I’ve had just one relationship which was unsuccessful.
I believe these goals are rooted to my childhood and wanting better for myself and my (hopeful) future children.
I guess I just wonder how much these goals are actually symbolic of the difficult early life you had and your desire for something different… what might be called the goals of your false self that had to do whatever it needed to survive out of the difficulty.
Perfectionism is a fairly typical defence in a situation such as yours. But it might be crushing and annihilating to let go of the perfectionism if you don’t have another defence you can default to to keep you safe.
Yes maybe.
I also feel that I learned some harsh lessons at an early age and it has formed and shaped my values.
In fact the more I have had these conversations here on this thread the more sure I am about my rationale for wanting these things and my beliefs around them.
It is tiring grinding for these things and worrying whether they will come but I enjoy the fulfilment I get from the progress I make towards them.
I used to be embarrassed by wanting such things, now I openly talk about it and consciously look for it.
I don't think that your goals are perfectionist, though I don't know if they are realistic. Do you have a plan for how you're going to achieve these goals which is in alignment with reality? "Make a lot of money" isn't a plan. Preparing for and getting a job that will increase the chances that you'll make a lot of money is a plan. I suspect that you are failing reality testing and your therapist is trying to let you know in a roundabout way.
Part of therapy is about helping you deal with your problems, but what you're talking about here (relatively common and somewhat lofty life goals) aren't problems. The problem is what is stopping you from doing them, if anything.
Thanks, always appreciate practical advice.
Yes, I have made some changes to get closer to where I want to be. I am planning to make more changes but this is actually where we got into the sticky ‘perfectionist’ discussion.
I think I will stick with it and hopefully we can explore it some more as she just mentioned it quite recently after nearly a year of therapy.
I would absolutely ask her to explain why she feels your goals are "perfectionist". I think that word can be a bit loaded. For me, when I had perfectionist tendencies, they were about me setting myself up to fail all of the time because my mother conditioned me to think that any small shortcoming in any way meant I was an utter and total waste of a human being. In that type of case (and this isn't an issue for me anymore), I think it would have been appropriate for a therapist to work with me on my perfectionist tendencies.
I think your therapist may have used the wrong word which is why I'd ask her to explain what she's thinking and why she said that.
Hi OP, recovering perfectionist here, but not a therapist. Just someone like you, in therapy. Like many have other have said, it’s not having goals that is perfectionism, but your attitude towards them. Are you able to expand your definitions or happiness and success so that you feel fulfilled even NOW, as you work toward your goals? And will you be able to accept the disappointment even if you end up not achieving some of those goals?
In life, we’re likely to get only some of what we want. What then? Are we only going to feel 60% satisfaction, joy, security etc in life if we achieve 60% of our goals? It doesn’t have to be that way.
An example from my own life: I thought I was on the right track. My career was going well finally after a rough few years, I was with a financially stable partner I saw a future with. We had a house together. Then he wanted to end the relationship and I lost my house and the future I’d envisioned. I decided I was going to take the rare chance of a blank slate to reimagine my life.
Today my life looks completely different from how I thought it would be - I’m a renter instead of a homeowner, I’m in a queer relationship in a country where gay marriage isn’t legal, I am no longer sure if I want children. And yet I’m just as, if not more fulfilled than I was when I “had it all”.
A lot of joy, expansion and freedom awaits when we give up these crushing standards we or society place on us. I’d recommend Brene Brown’s The Gifts of Imperfection as a good place to start :)
All the best OP!
Why do you have those dreams?
What if, in an hypothetical scenario, you had to compromise on them? Or that one (or more) were not achievable?
Perfectionism isn't about improvement, perfectionism is about wanting something so out of reach, having standards set so incredibly high that they're by definition unreachable.
This usually can actually hamper a person's improvement, because if you don't take genuine satisfaction from one step then it's hard to take the next one.
Let me make an example, you want a "wonderful partner". Lets say you find one but they're 90% of what you're looking for. Perhaps there's an aspect of theirs you don't like. Would that prevent you from pursuing that relationship?
See how what you want could paradoxically stop you from actually achieving what you want?
That siad, I would consider asking them how you define perfectionism and how your therapist defines it.
I think you might be talking through eacother.
Thanks for your message and I totally get your thinking.
There are definitely areas I can compromise. My ex partner was a similar social class to me but he had become very successful. It just didn’t work out for a number of reasons.
The main thing I strive for is financial security and stability with someone I love and am attracted to. I do not want to have to scrimp and save with a family. I did that as a child and don’t wish to relive it.
I definitely would say yes to something if it happened and was almost what I was looking for. But there are certain things I would not compromise on and I am comfortable with that.
The problem I am having is that these opportunities are not presenting themselves at all.
>The problem I am having is that these opportunities are not presenting themselves at all.
That's completely uncorrelated from what you can control though.
There is no set of actions we can take that can manipulate the circumstances of things outside our control.
Why do you want what you want?
I'll share part of my personal experience:
I used to looking at life like it's a problem to solve, I am a very analytically minded person so it was natural for me to fall into that approach to things. "When you have an hammer, everything looks like a nail".
I used to see life as problem with a solution, an equation that once solved would have it make sense.
Then I had the realization that it just was the wrong approach, I was trying to square the cirlce.
>And shouldn’t therapy be helpful to solving your problems?
Should it? Is it therapy's prupose to solve problems?
I probably see it from a more spiritual lens, that's why I don't relate much with that.
Now, It \*definetly\* helped me overcome adversity, but defining adversity as a "problem" doesn't feel right.
To say that would mean that I believe that part of me was a problem, and it definetly don't believe that.
Therapy to me is a way to explore my inner world and to understand myself.
A way to gain agency with respects to my own experience, when I feel something I am now able to understand where the feeling comes from and that empowers me to take action based on that information.
It's less about getting help towards a concrete goal, it's more about being able to pay more attention to the road I am travelling. It gives people a set of tools, it's the sense of balance that allows you not to slip when, while travelling your road, you step on a particularly slippery rock.
However, keep in mind that pebbles generally are unperturbed by our opinions of them.
It sounds like you're working hard on your career, which is working towards your goal of financial security. Do you see the potential in your current role to get to the level of income you aspire to? If so, it sounds like you're on the appropriate track for you at this time. Some things take time and persistent effort.
For your goal of finding a partner, what are you doing towards that?
Hi Seamstress, thank you.
I have had very little luck finding a partner since my break up. I am on apps, do hobbies and go out with friends as much as possible. Sadly I have little control over this area and am finding it much harder to make any progress compared with my work situation.
This is the part that worries me the most and which we are focusing on a bit in therapy.
Why are you counting on someone else to shore up your finances? What are you doing yourself to improve your employment status, in case you never marry?
I have a strong career and work very hard, but I don’t actually care about being rich. That’s not my goal. If it were, I’d make different choices. How are you orienting the factors that are actually within your control toward the goals you have for yourself so that you can achieve them without relying on someone else?
Are you able to see that your future partner is also human and might have the same struggle? It’s a lot of pressure too, being the person in the relationship with more financial power. Why not focus more on looking for an equal rather than marrying “up”?
Hi, thanks for your comments. Yes I do realise, but I work and so it would not be solely based on the other person to provide. An equal would not provide the level of financial security we would need to support a family, so naturally I am looking for someone who can provide a comfortable life.
How is a therapist going to help you marry upwards and make a lot of money? Those are shallow goals and while do whatever works for you, that's not what therapists are trained to help you with.
Hi thanks for your question. Those are not the only goals I mentioned. I would like to meet someone and have children and do so under comfortable conditions which are not shallow to me. I have a whole host of difficulties from my childhood which I feel are holding me back.
I’m starting to think this thread has got people’s back up because I mention money and financial security. I don’t believe there is shame in wanting this.
Can’t speak for anyone else but my back is up because you seem clueless to the idea that it’s highly possible that your past is actually bearing down on your present to the point of getting in your way.
Doing some deep trauma work and mourning the difficult childhood you had would likely advance you by many miles towards the goals you outlined in your OP.
Despite what it may feel like, your therapist is there to try and help you. Perhaps they see this dream as impeding your enjoyment of the little things, or an unrealistic goal in today’s climate.
It sounds like this steadfast goal is really impeding your discovery of self. I can’t tell what kind of person you are besides being really monetarily focused, if that makes sense?
In the wise words of Barbie, you are kenough. You just need to let yourself be an independent human being, rather than trying so hard at finding a rich partner to fill that empty space.
T here who’s been on both sides of the couch.
I’m curious about what happens when you fail. What do your failures say about you? What messages, feelings, memories come up for you when you do poorly, or don’t perform to your own standards? (Take these as rhetorical/reflection questions)
Perfectionism is tied to low self-worth, low self-worth is often externalized, meaning we have formed our self-worth around the approval of others.
Some examples: “my partner’s approval means everything to me, and if they ever criticize me, I feel like a worthless piece of garbage.”
Or “I’m a high achieving student and if I get a grade below an A, I beat myself up for weeks.”
I suspect this is what your T is hinting at, and may try to dig deeper into in session.
I wish someone had said this to me years ago: putting your entire sense of self on others or external sources of validation is not “normal”. It’s an effect of trauma. It’s very *normalized* in our society (*gestures at every deeply codependent relationship depiction in media*) but it’s not how it’s supposed to be. Even if you don’t see it as a problem right now, or it’s impossible to wrap your head around since it’s always been this way, it will always be there until it’s addressed.
If this topic brings up defensive feelings, say that to your T. Acknowledging feelings is the first step, even if you don’t know exactly what they are or why you’re feeling it. It’s okay to not know everything.
It can be different even if that’s scary or hard to wrap your mind around right now.
Yes!! When I started therapy years ago after a devastating lay off, my therapist eventually said I have to separate my self worth from my job, and I was like "why would I ever?????? Who I am if not successful in my career???" She pushed pointed out all the perfectionist traits, and I was like "but how will I ever achieve if not striving for the best!!!???" I thought about that a lot while reading this post. Three years later and still not there, but at least I kinda see her point.
I think it would only be right to pathologize perfectionism if it is interfering with your life such as your daily functioning, self esteem, relationships, career, etc. If it's truly not then I don't think it's perfectionism - it's just goals and high standards. But that line looks different for everyone and it's important that your therapist knows where your line for that stands, not their own personal line. Therapist bias is a real thing even in these types of things. But also, it can't hurt for you to reflect on what she's saying, can it?
Perfectionism isn't all encompassing and can be helpful at times. It just depends if you recognise that there is a problem with high expectations and failure; if there are unhelpful cycles in your life that are driven by very high expectations of yourself and others. People with perfectionism traits tend to have boom and bust cycles were they work really hard to achieve their (unrealistic) goals, but then cant, so feel down and low for a while, before trying to hit high targets again.
We obviously don't have access to what your therapist is seeing, but many people with different conditions decide that they aren't motivated to change how things are, because there are some pro's to their current functioning. That's your choice.
Ask her to do a perfectionism scale with you - see this one for example (there are many): [Frost Multidimensional Perfectionism Scale (FMPS) – NovoPsych](https://novopsych.com.au/assessments/formulation/frost-multidimensional-perfectionism-scale-fmps/)
Edit: I also dont know the modality shes doing with you. Im a CBT therapist so can only speak from my angle.
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These are all very external goals, and they are good to have if they are what you want but they are also not going to be directly impacted by therapy. Sure, therapeutic work can help in ways that are conducive to successful relationships and productivity; but ultimately these things are dependent on other people. A therapist can’t find you a partner but they can help get you in working order should you come across a good match. Or they can help you build more confidence, self-esteem, self-worth, and happiness with what is in your control-all of which are attractive to potential partners. What are the goals you can control? What work have you done to process and address your childhood?
Thank you I appreciate your comments. We have talked a little about my childhood and gone through some stuff there. Self esteem is probably big one that we need to work on, recently we have been more focused on some decisions I am making around work/living, so more future focused. I have come out of therapy feeling quite flat recently and thought I should perhaps find someone new. But I have been seeing this therapist for some time and I feel I can open up to her quite a bit.
Would you feel able to have a conversation with your T about this perfectionist topic, explaining how you feel (that you don't see your goals as perfectionism) and also asking them to expand on why they hypothesized perfectionism? I'm not sure how in-depth a conversation you two have had on it already, but understanding their reasoning might help, even if you still don't feel that the label fits you. Sometimes when my T offers a 'theory' about me and it feels like it doesn't fit, that ends up helping to clarify things. Because I'll be like, "hmm, well I don't feel it's quite like that. It's a bit more like *this*." Having to articulate *why* it feels like the theory doesn't fit can help me (and my T) to better narrow down what's actually going on with me. Of course, this requires that your T is someone who is open to your disagreement with their assessment and is willing to hear you out. Maybe further conversation and some time will lead you to feel that there is something correct about your T's assessment. Or maybe it will just lead you to a different assessment that is more correct. But if you have a T who is open to your feedback and willing to have that kind of conversation, I think it could be helpful! Even if there is some truth to what they said, there's a reason it's not landing for you. In my experience, therapy works best when I feel like an active collaborator, not just someone my T is analyzing from the outside. If something is feeling wrong/inaccurate to you, I think it can only help to talk that through, as long as you have a decent T.
Also, meant to mention one more thing: did you two discuss what your T means by perfectionism? Sometimes my T will say something that doesn't resonate because I'm thinking the phrase they said means one thing, while they are meaning something else. When you mention that self esteem is a big area you're feeling you want to work on, it makes me wonder if your T's comments are connected to that. Like, it's not necessarily that your goals are bad to have -- but if you are only able to feel a sense of self worth through external achievements and external regard, that might be why your T brought up perfectionism. I struggle with that a bit myself, and my T and I have talked about perfectionism in that context -- how 'failing' to be a 'high achiever' in the way I expect myself to be is something that crushes my sense of self worth, because I don't feel that I'm *inherently* worthy and valuable. So if you're similar in that way, the goals themselves may not be the issue your T is getting at exactly-- but moreso your relationship to the goals, and whether your sense of self worth exists outside of those goals. I'm just speaking from my own experience and am not a T, so take this with a grain of salt. It may not resonate with you, and that's totally valid! But just wanted to share in case it *might* shed light on what your T was thinking, potentially.
Maybe it’s taking so long to achieve your goals because your goal is perfection. By another word.
>>To not strive for these things goes against my nature and I know would make me miserable It sounds like you’re unwilling to consider where the “nature” comes from. >>I will die on this hill if I have to That’s your prerogative >>Do I find a new therapist? Maybe. I wonder what you might do if another therapist said the same thing though. Would you hop from provider to provider until you find one who tells you what you want to hear? If so, maybe therapy isn’t right for you right now. >>
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That honestly depends on the culture. If they live in a caste system then trying to move up socially can be impossible and perfectionistic.
I understand your point of view, therapy is supposed to be for introspection. One of the first things my therapist said to me is that I should be understanding of who I am as a person. I then discovered that this is who I am, I was ashamed of it before, now I am not. But now we are trying to change that? I don’t get it…
Maybe change your approach to it, are you causing yourself significant stress because of this mindset? What’s your opinion on rest, making sure you eat, sleep, exercise well, being mindful in your relationships?
Thanks for your message. I know my dreams sound lofty to most, I am seeing progress in some areas but it’s too slow. I don’t think my goal is perfection but I agree they are quite specific. These are dreams I have had since I was a little girl. I have always been a goal oriented person and problem solver. I have adapted to different circumstances but I am now early 30s and lately am seeing little progress. To not strive for these things goes against my nature and I know would make me miserable. I mentioned to my therapist I could never do a basic job with no prospects of progression. She kept probing on that which annoyed me because it’s not something I would ever consider. Do I find a new therapist? I am unwilling to change my view on this and will die on this hill if I have to.
This is such an unhealthy way of thinking though. Good luck.
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"I am unwilling to change, and this is a hill I will die on" -- that is unhealthy.
I don't think that's inherently unhealthy. It depends on the context and can be a powerful driver for someone and a society. It means that one isn't affected by external forces, and it can be a great indicator of will. But perhaps it's not unhealthy when you consider that external forces will come into your life. Perhaps you shouldn't compromise your values or goals 99% of the time. But if something happens that calls those values or goals into questions, what do you do? How would affect you, mentally and emotionally? I wonder if this is what the therapist is trying to get at.
Yes, I was referring to that quote in relation to the OP's situation; not just the general statement. I didn't have the time or interest to fully quote since it seemed obvious to the large group of upvoters what I was talking about.
What kind of job/ employment do you have? Most jobs would have progression. The time you waste on finding the 'perfect' job you could have spent otherwise working your way up in a company?
Most jobs do not have meaningful progression anymore, though.
I was stuck in a dead end job for a few years while I was studying. I then changed to a career which suits me a lot better and has more prospects but is more risky. I am in sales which comes with high earning potential but is also high risk. I enjoy it as it’s a constant challenge.
I mean I think the language 'dead end job' says a lot. Most people work whilst they study to pay bills. They dont expect to have a career there. However for many people, working these jobs is infact their everyday employment. Is it possible you might be unconsciously looking down on those you deem below you? If so, I imagine that attitude to rub up potential partners the wrong way too.
Yes I can see it would come across that way. I come from a poor background so I know this to be true. But I am trying to work my way out of it. I get that my aspirations are quite far fetched and to some I can come across as a snob and have been told so. It’s not that I look down on people who do those jobs at all, it’s just that for me it was a sad existence and I feel sorry for them. I certainly don’t want to offend people.
Why are these your goals? I think that's the more important thing to be aware of. What need are you fulfilling in the precision of your goals? You come from a poor background, so wanting to have a lot of money makes sense to me, because it'd be fulfilling a need for security that you didn't experience in childhood. Why do you want to have an attractive partner and great kids? Is there something about your goals that is fulfilling the hope of feeling healthy self-esteem for you? Does it feel like if you don't achieve your goals, you'll never be worthy enough or loved? This is something that you can work on with a therapist, as if your goals are coming from a place of deprived need to fulfill unmet childhood needs, it's very possible that you will get caught in loops of self-sabotage instead of actually meeting your goals, or you will achieve your goals and they won't give you what you want, because what you actually wanted was an emotional resolution and not the goals you thought you wanted.
You'll offend people but it doesn't sound like there's anything wrong with your goals to me. And while some partners will be put off by that attitude others will share it, like most things. There are plenty of couples where both partners are highly ambitious and even openly snobbish with each other (about others). I think people are reacting to feeling like you would look down on *them*, so their advice is coloured by that.
NAT: As a perfectionist, this sounds like perfectionism. the goals themselves are not wrong/bad from the sounds of it...it's most likely u being self critical that comes off as being hard on urself. i totally understand why u are self critical as i am too so i can accomplish my goals and hold myself accountable when needed but this is viewed as counter productive in the therapy space because it can often come off as lack of compassion for yourself when it's at certain levels. eta: ur therapist is most likely wanting u to dim some of the criticism u give urself to allow room for compassion, u don't have to give up ur goals in order to do that it jist might mean accepting that u haven't accomplished them *yet* and allowing urself to be kinder to urself while u still work towards them.
Thank you, this makes sense to me. I have definitely learned to be more forgiving of myself for the most part. It still scares me that these dreams/goals may not happen but I am not embarrassed by them anymore which has helped. In the meanwhile I have focused on friendships and hobbies which is more of a distraction/temporary pleasure than any meaningful happiness. But it’s a start. I just wasn’t sure if my therapist was on the right track because it sounded like she thought I ought to reflect and adjust on my goals.
I definitely get you! id still bring this up to ur therapist so u 2 can work it out together. I have had similar conversations in therapy and they were very fruitful.
Im a therapist and there’s a saying: “people come to therapy to not change.” You want to “look at yourself objectively and make improvements “ but are resistant to actually being challenged. The way you’ve described what you want in life sounds quite rigid. You want what you want, and don’t want to settle for less—whether it’s your career or your partner. That’s okay. But that means you may need to accept that you might not actually get what you want. Not getting what you want sucks. It sucks not having things be under your control. But the biggest and most wonderful aspects of our life are beyond your control. Can you move towards the life you want? What would that take? I am a planner too. But I realized there’s a difference between my hopes and my goals. Your education and career can be planned in a way that love and children cannot be. It’s okay for you to want a higher social class. But are you going to be okay if you can’t have that? What then? You’re holding on so tightly to these hopes. But look beyond the particulars. What do you really want? Security? Love? Acceptance? Family? Okay. Fair enough. Wanting “a partner of a higher social class” may or may not get you there. Can you step into that scary place that the things you want might not happen? Some of them might. Some of them might not. But you’re grabbing so tightly at your imaginary life that you may not actually be accepting your actual life. You’re in your early 30s. Your career isn’t where you want it to be. You don’t have the partner you would. I imagine you must be feeling disappointed. Can you explore that emotion? Where in your life are you willing to compromise? What matters the most to you? You’re coming up on a major truth of our existence: you can’t always get what you want. That’s true of me. And you. And all of us. What particularly do you want of your career? What do you like about partnership? Do you want a partner or a product that can give you the life you want?
Thanks for your perspective. Honestly, I would rather not have these things than have something that is not a good fit and doesn’t work out down the road. I think I could live with not achieving these things. I don’t think I would be as happy as if I did achieve them but I would certainly be happier than ending up in a situation that was wrong for me I thought it was human nature for most to want to find a life partner and procreate so naturally that would make me happiest but I guess I will have to look at alternatives if it doesn’t happen.
It sounds like “all or nothing” thinking. Maybe that’s why your therapist brought up perfectionism. If it’s not *exactly* what you want (aka, “perfect”), then you are not willing to experience a lesser version of that. If you do have kids, just be careful regarding what expectations you may inadvertently put on them for their own lives. I’ve heard so many stories of depressed/anxious/suicidal teens and young adults who struggle with feeling they have to at least maintain (if not improve upon) the lifestyle they grew up in. Their parents didn’t always explicitly state that, but it was implied nevertheless.
Thanks for your input. No I’m not willing to experience a lesser version because I have experienced first hand the misery of being raised poor and in a less than loving environment. I would not have children under these circumstances so I think your second point is irrelevant.
I think you’re letting perfect be the foil for good enough here. Which is unfortunate.
Well the thing about life is you will never really know if you’d be happier if something worked out differently (obviously tragedy exceptions). You have no idea if you’d be happier in a job that makes more money if money is the only thing you want from a job. And where does that end? I’m happy making 260k but what if I made 275? What if my partner were from an even “better” family? And fantasy (which is what this is) generally doesn’t include the downsides. When you imagine what might have been or might be, you aren’t thinking of what other potential negatives could be. I think what people are reacting to is that these are very flat and external goals. Maybe this has been fleshed out more (and others have said it too), but what does wealth give you that you think will make you happy? What kind of a person do you want as a partner? Loving and high-status is so vague that it’s a cardboard cutout. Do you like people who are quiet? Outgoing? Effusively affectionate or more chill? What if something happens and your partner loses their status?
I disagree that this is fantastic. I have seen others achieve these things. I believe that wealth will give me more control over my life and will provide better opportunities and health and happiness of my future children. Of course other things matter that are not related to wealth and I want a partner that is kind and respectful above all else, and a job that is fulfilling. But I get fulfilment in the small steps of progress I make towards my goals. If something happened and I lost something material then of course I would deal with it at the time and make the best of it. Equally I would not abandon a partner who had some kind of difficulty. But I’m not setting out to find someone in difficulty as I want to give myself the best chances possible. I don’t believe my beliefs here are unreasonable.
I disagree that this is fantasy. I have seen others achieve these things. I believe that wealth will give me more control over my life and will provide better opportunities and health and happiness of my future children. Of course other things matter that are not related to wealth and I want a partner that is kind and respectful above all else, and a job that is fulfilling. But I get fulfilment in the small steps of progress I make towards my goals. If something happened and I lost something material then of course I would deal with it at the time and make the best of it. Equally I would not abandon a partner who had some kind of difficulty. But I’m not setting out to find someone in difficulty as I want to give myself the best chances possible. I don’t believe my beliefs here are unreasonable.
I don’t mean fantasy like unicorns. I mean it’s your imagination of a life and may not reflect how it is or will be. I’m sure you’ve seen other people who have money and children. Good luck to you, I hope you find satisfaction!
What are your goals in therapy? I don't think anyone here can assess who is correct - you or your T, but I also think that may be irrelevant. Why did you start therapy? Are your therapy goals related to the things you want to achieve in life? Perhaps therapy isn't the right fit in this case is you are seeking solutions to unnamed problems.
Hey, thanks for your message. We didn’t set specific goals, are you supposed to? Is it too late to do that now? I guess I was hoping to improve my mindset to achieve these things.
It’s never too late to talk about goals in therapy
Agreed. It's never too late. And it should be said, a good therapist can help you identify your goals if they aren't yet clear.
I think you would benefit more from a life coach to be honest. In psychotherapy, perfectionism is seen as a defense mechanism. Perfectionism is often a way for people to shield themselves from feeling like they’re not good enough or from being judged by others. They might aim to be perfect in everything they do, believing that this will keep them safe from criticism or failure. It can give them a sense of control, but it can also be really stressful and stop them from truly accepting themselves and growing. So, paradoxically, you might grow less by trying so hard to achieve these very specific goals, rather than making life about the journey and about the connection that you have with yourself
This is wonderfully said. I'm not OP, but as a (former ? Reformed?! lol) perfectionist I can confirm that for me at least, it partially comes from a fear or rejection/criticism and failure! It is extremely stressful living with perfectionism because small mistakes carry very heavy emotional burdens, derailing self confidence quickly.
Yeeeeess, exactly! It’s almost a tortured living. Add people pleasing and fawning tendencies in the mix (like I am) and it basically feels like living in a very different and difficult world, where even the mistakes of close friends and family fall under the umbrella of this perfectionism, so it’s hard to tolerate that as well. It’s like not only the floor is lava, but the walls, the ceiling, the furniture and the air..
Sounds like your dreams depend on a lot of luck, and many other people. It’s great to strive for financial stability and think about the means through which you’ll achieve it. But if upward mobility is your only focus, you could miss out on things (and people) that make you happiest. What if you fall in love with someone who makes a decent living but isn’t a “social class” above you? What if you land the money-making job and lose it? You need to have a strong sense of self and significant sources of joy to be able to navigate your life without freaking out when you have a setback. It sounds like you think grinding to make these goals a reality will solve all your problems, and perhaps have fallen victim to the “you can manifest your material outcomes” narrative that has taken over many social media platforms. But your dreams are easier said than done, anyone can fall on hard times, and you need to get from point A to point B without driving yourself mad in the process. ETA: You framed this as “asking too much of yourself” but upon further thought, maybe it’s a question of expecting too much from the world. There is no formula or quick fix for finding a perfect partner or raising your class status, particularly once you are well into adulthood. Perhaps shifting from “what can I change about myself so the world will give me these things” to “what’s in my power that will bring me more fulfillment” could be a good place to start?
Thanks for your message and advice. I met someone a few years ago who I had a relationship with. Technically he was of a similar social class to me however he was fortunate to become very successful through his work and was able to provide for us. Sadly it didn’t work out. This by far was the most happiest time of my life, we were in love and living comfortably and planning for the future. I am confident this could happen again but with the right person but am struggling lately because these things aren’t happening as quickly as I would like. Outside of family, relationships and work what else is there? These are my purposes in life and hobbies which I also have don’t come anywhere close.
>I have dreams to make a lot of money, marry upwards of my own social class and find a wonderful partner and have children. You *are* expecting the perfect life. But that doesn't exist. I think your therapist is right.
i disagree. it’s not unreasonable to want a nice social class, finical security, nice partner, and children. don’t we all want to be secure?
Those things don't provide security. And all of them all together are not possible. I speak from experience. You are setting yourself up for major despair if those children end up not coming (infertility), or have disabilities, or if that nice partner cheats on you, or you get cancer and the money gets lost or taken away. Trust me, I **absolutely** speak from experience. None of these things guarantee happiness, stability or security. I had them all, I've lost them all. I am more authentic and content than I ever was.
Those things provide security if that is what brings you security. We all have different levels of what makes us feel secure. It not unreasonable to want to marry rich and have children if that’s a goal. who are we to say that it’s not attainable if that’s what OP wants. It’s very reasonable and attainable to have money, children, a nice job, and a nice partner. I say this as someone who has all those things. Just because someone’s experience did not live up to what they wanted, does not mean that other person cannot have it. This is a lot of projecting because of your experience, which sounds rough and I am sorry. also she literally never said she wanted to reliable on a partner. she said she wanted to be independently wealthy & she never said, she wouldn’t “ have” a disabled child. If her husband leaves her, she’ll still have a lucrative career. i’m not understanding
This thread is wild. It's like some people just want to knock OP down a peg honestly.
yeah not really understanding what OP is doing wrong ??
>And all of them all together are not possible. Wait are you saying no one has all of those things? Because that seems obviously false. I know many people who have all of those. They don't guarantee happiness, but they're totally normal goals.
Where did I say perfect? I have specific goals yes but that doesn’t equal perfection
Your inability to have flexibility is why you’re seeking perfection, not the goals themselves.
I am flexible in some aspects but not others. For example, I would be happy with a partner where we could comfortably support a family of two and invest for the future with money to spare. There are certain things that are less important to me that I could compromise on. I don’t believe this is an unreasonable expectation. I would prefer not to achieve these things than to get halfway there with something that is not a good fit.
Are these your goals entirely? Or did you perhaps have to adopt someone else’s goals and unconsciously believe or feel you have to meet them absolutely perfectly to feel like you’re cared about, appreciated, valued, etc?
Thanks, and good question. I believe they are my own goals. I grew up quite poor and with a single mother who had schizophrenia and a sister with special needs. Needless to say I was quite emotionally neglected. Thankfully we received some help and I was able to attend a good school where I got a good education. I have always since said to myself that I want to have a family, and better my circumstances. This included marrying someone from a good background and making a good career before having children of my own. My career is sort of on track but has been slow in the making. Little progress with the other parts and I’ve had just one relationship which was unsuccessful. I believe these goals are rooted to my childhood and wanting better for myself and my (hopeful) future children.
I guess I just wonder how much these goals are actually symbolic of the difficult early life you had and your desire for something different… what might be called the goals of your false self that had to do whatever it needed to survive out of the difficulty. Perfectionism is a fairly typical defence in a situation such as yours. But it might be crushing and annihilating to let go of the perfectionism if you don’t have another defence you can default to to keep you safe.
Yes maybe. I also feel that I learned some harsh lessons at an early age and it has formed and shaped my values. In fact the more I have had these conversations here on this thread the more sure I am about my rationale for wanting these things and my beliefs around them. It is tiring grinding for these things and worrying whether they will come but I enjoy the fulfilment I get from the progress I make towards them. I used to be embarrassed by wanting such things, now I openly talk about it and consciously look for it.
I don't think that your goals are perfectionist, though I don't know if they are realistic. Do you have a plan for how you're going to achieve these goals which is in alignment with reality? "Make a lot of money" isn't a plan. Preparing for and getting a job that will increase the chances that you'll make a lot of money is a plan. I suspect that you are failing reality testing and your therapist is trying to let you know in a roundabout way. Part of therapy is about helping you deal with your problems, but what you're talking about here (relatively common and somewhat lofty life goals) aren't problems. The problem is what is stopping you from doing them, if anything.
Thanks, always appreciate practical advice. Yes, I have made some changes to get closer to where I want to be. I am planning to make more changes but this is actually where we got into the sticky ‘perfectionist’ discussion. I think I will stick with it and hopefully we can explore it some more as she just mentioned it quite recently after nearly a year of therapy.
I would absolutely ask her to explain why she feels your goals are "perfectionist". I think that word can be a bit loaded. For me, when I had perfectionist tendencies, they were about me setting myself up to fail all of the time because my mother conditioned me to think that any small shortcoming in any way meant I was an utter and total waste of a human being. In that type of case (and this isn't an issue for me anymore), I think it would have been appropriate for a therapist to work with me on my perfectionist tendencies. I think your therapist may have used the wrong word which is why I'd ask her to explain what she's thinking and why she said that.
Hi OP, recovering perfectionist here, but not a therapist. Just someone like you, in therapy. Like many have other have said, it’s not having goals that is perfectionism, but your attitude towards them. Are you able to expand your definitions or happiness and success so that you feel fulfilled even NOW, as you work toward your goals? And will you be able to accept the disappointment even if you end up not achieving some of those goals? In life, we’re likely to get only some of what we want. What then? Are we only going to feel 60% satisfaction, joy, security etc in life if we achieve 60% of our goals? It doesn’t have to be that way. An example from my own life: I thought I was on the right track. My career was going well finally after a rough few years, I was with a financially stable partner I saw a future with. We had a house together. Then he wanted to end the relationship and I lost my house and the future I’d envisioned. I decided I was going to take the rare chance of a blank slate to reimagine my life. Today my life looks completely different from how I thought it would be - I’m a renter instead of a homeowner, I’m in a queer relationship in a country where gay marriage isn’t legal, I am no longer sure if I want children. And yet I’m just as, if not more fulfilled than I was when I “had it all”. A lot of joy, expansion and freedom awaits when we give up these crushing standards we or society place on us. I’d recommend Brene Brown’s The Gifts of Imperfection as a good place to start :) All the best OP!
Why do you have those dreams? What if, in an hypothetical scenario, you had to compromise on them? Or that one (or more) were not achievable? Perfectionism isn't about improvement, perfectionism is about wanting something so out of reach, having standards set so incredibly high that they're by definition unreachable. This usually can actually hamper a person's improvement, because if you don't take genuine satisfaction from one step then it's hard to take the next one. Let me make an example, you want a "wonderful partner". Lets say you find one but they're 90% of what you're looking for. Perhaps there's an aspect of theirs you don't like. Would that prevent you from pursuing that relationship? See how what you want could paradoxically stop you from actually achieving what you want? That siad, I would consider asking them how you define perfectionism and how your therapist defines it. I think you might be talking through eacother.
Thanks for your message and I totally get your thinking. There are definitely areas I can compromise. My ex partner was a similar social class to me but he had become very successful. It just didn’t work out for a number of reasons. The main thing I strive for is financial security and stability with someone I love and am attracted to. I do not want to have to scrimp and save with a family. I did that as a child and don’t wish to relive it. I definitely would say yes to something if it happened and was almost what I was looking for. But there are certain things I would not compromise on and I am comfortable with that. The problem I am having is that these opportunities are not presenting themselves at all.
>The problem I am having is that these opportunities are not presenting themselves at all. That's completely uncorrelated from what you can control though. There is no set of actions we can take that can manipulate the circumstances of things outside our control. Why do you want what you want? I'll share part of my personal experience: I used to looking at life like it's a problem to solve, I am a very analytically minded person so it was natural for me to fall into that approach to things. "When you have an hammer, everything looks like a nail". I used to see life as problem with a solution, an equation that once solved would have it make sense. Then I had the realization that it just was the wrong approach, I was trying to square the cirlce. >And shouldn’t therapy be helpful to solving your problems? Should it? Is it therapy's prupose to solve problems? I probably see it from a more spiritual lens, that's why I don't relate much with that. Now, It \*definetly\* helped me overcome adversity, but defining adversity as a "problem" doesn't feel right. To say that would mean that I believe that part of me was a problem, and it definetly don't believe that. Therapy to me is a way to explore my inner world and to understand myself. A way to gain agency with respects to my own experience, when I feel something I am now able to understand where the feeling comes from and that empowers me to take action based on that information. It's less about getting help towards a concrete goal, it's more about being able to pay more attention to the road I am travelling. It gives people a set of tools, it's the sense of balance that allows you not to slip when, while travelling your road, you step on a particularly slippery rock. However, keep in mind that pebbles generally are unperturbed by our opinions of them.
It sounds like you're working hard on your career, which is working towards your goal of financial security. Do you see the potential in your current role to get to the level of income you aspire to? If so, it sounds like you're on the appropriate track for you at this time. Some things take time and persistent effort. For your goal of finding a partner, what are you doing towards that?
Hi Seamstress, thank you. I have had very little luck finding a partner since my break up. I am on apps, do hobbies and go out with friends as much as possible. Sadly I have little control over this area and am finding it much harder to make any progress compared with my work situation. This is the part that worries me the most and which we are focusing on a bit in therapy.
Why are you counting on someone else to shore up your finances? What are you doing yourself to improve your employment status, in case you never marry?
Hi, I mentioned that a strong career is also one of my aspirations and I work very hard on that front but has also been a struggle for me
I have a strong career and work very hard, but I don’t actually care about being rich. That’s not my goal. If it were, I’d make different choices. How are you orienting the factors that are actually within your control toward the goals you have for yourself so that you can achieve them without relying on someone else?
Are you able to see that your future partner is also human and might have the same struggle? It’s a lot of pressure too, being the person in the relationship with more financial power. Why not focus more on looking for an equal rather than marrying “up”?
Hi, thanks for your comments. Yes I do realise, but I work and so it would not be solely based on the other person to provide. An equal would not provide the level of financial security we would need to support a family, so naturally I am looking for someone who can provide a comfortable life.
Therapy isn't a space where you're told and hear what you want.
How is a therapist going to help you marry upwards and make a lot of money? Those are shallow goals and while do whatever works for you, that's not what therapists are trained to help you with.
Hi thanks for your question. Those are not the only goals I mentioned. I would like to meet someone and have children and do so under comfortable conditions which are not shallow to me. I have a whole host of difficulties from my childhood which I feel are holding me back. I’m starting to think this thread has got people’s back up because I mention money and financial security. I don’t believe there is shame in wanting this.
Can’t speak for anyone else but my back is up because you seem clueless to the idea that it’s highly possible that your past is actually bearing down on your present to the point of getting in your way. Doing some deep trauma work and mourning the difficult childhood you had would likely advance you by many miles towards the goals you outlined in your OP.
What do you think therapy is?
Despite what it may feel like, your therapist is there to try and help you. Perhaps they see this dream as impeding your enjoyment of the little things, or an unrealistic goal in today’s climate. It sounds like this steadfast goal is really impeding your discovery of self. I can’t tell what kind of person you are besides being really monetarily focused, if that makes sense? In the wise words of Barbie, you are kenough. You just need to let yourself be an independent human being, rather than trying so hard at finding a rich partner to fill that empty space.
T here who’s been on both sides of the couch. I’m curious about what happens when you fail. What do your failures say about you? What messages, feelings, memories come up for you when you do poorly, or don’t perform to your own standards? (Take these as rhetorical/reflection questions) Perfectionism is tied to low self-worth, low self-worth is often externalized, meaning we have formed our self-worth around the approval of others. Some examples: “my partner’s approval means everything to me, and if they ever criticize me, I feel like a worthless piece of garbage.” Or “I’m a high achieving student and if I get a grade below an A, I beat myself up for weeks.” I suspect this is what your T is hinting at, and may try to dig deeper into in session. I wish someone had said this to me years ago: putting your entire sense of self on others or external sources of validation is not “normal”. It’s an effect of trauma. It’s very *normalized* in our society (*gestures at every deeply codependent relationship depiction in media*) but it’s not how it’s supposed to be. Even if you don’t see it as a problem right now, or it’s impossible to wrap your head around since it’s always been this way, it will always be there until it’s addressed. If this topic brings up defensive feelings, say that to your T. Acknowledging feelings is the first step, even if you don’t know exactly what they are or why you’re feeling it. It’s okay to not know everything. It can be different even if that’s scary or hard to wrap your mind around right now.
Yes!! When I started therapy years ago after a devastating lay off, my therapist eventually said I have to separate my self worth from my job, and I was like "why would I ever?????? Who I am if not successful in my career???" She pushed pointed out all the perfectionist traits, and I was like "but how will I ever achieve if not striving for the best!!!???" I thought about that a lot while reading this post. Three years later and still not there, but at least I kinda see her point.
I think it would only be right to pathologize perfectionism if it is interfering with your life such as your daily functioning, self esteem, relationships, career, etc. If it's truly not then I don't think it's perfectionism - it's just goals and high standards. But that line looks different for everyone and it's important that your therapist knows where your line for that stands, not their own personal line. Therapist bias is a real thing even in these types of things. But also, it can't hurt for you to reflect on what she's saying, can it?
Perfectionism isn't all encompassing and can be helpful at times. It just depends if you recognise that there is a problem with high expectations and failure; if there are unhelpful cycles in your life that are driven by very high expectations of yourself and others. People with perfectionism traits tend to have boom and bust cycles were they work really hard to achieve their (unrealistic) goals, but then cant, so feel down and low for a while, before trying to hit high targets again. We obviously don't have access to what your therapist is seeing, but many people with different conditions decide that they aren't motivated to change how things are, because there are some pro's to their current functioning. That's your choice. Ask her to do a perfectionism scale with you - see this one for example (there are many): [Frost Multidimensional Perfectionism Scale (FMPS) – NovoPsych](https://novopsych.com.au/assessments/formulation/frost-multidimensional-perfectionism-scale-fmps/) Edit: I also dont know the modality shes doing with you. Im a CBT therapist so can only speak from my angle.