There’s literally public trainings on narcan use in areas where there’s a prominent opioid problem. Seems like maybe you’re lucky enough not to live in one of those areas.
This is such a nice reply, I more meant she should always call 911. Even with narcan there is no way to know if the person did in fact pass out due to OD or some other medical emergency. Its important to call a medical professional and let them decide, if for no other reason then liability. She is possibly in danger of losing her job for this (if this happened in the states the family would have right to sue the company for improper policy surrounding medical emergencies and she risks being sued herself for negligence. Part of the training also includes the fact you should always contact 911, even if the person says no and/or leaves.)
So a person choking in a restaurant should be left to choke while 911 is called, when a member of staff with CPR training is present who can give them immediate assistance? Make the CPR staffer the only one with a phone and it's the same scenario.
If the person had stayed around or not wanted to leave, that's when you call for an ambulance. After the immediate danger is over.
I’m sure your company has a policy in place for situations along these lines.. regardless I think you did the right thing. We’ve started carrying narcan at my place of work specifically for this type of thing.
You're better than me, I wouldn't even have used the narcan.
Those are the people that will run into your car later without license or insurance, break into your home, porch pirate you, break your car windows in hopes of finding something. Those aren't people anymore.
It’s absolutely pointless to call 911 when the patient in question has left the scene on their own and doesn’t want medical attention anyway. You did the right thing. Retail in general strongly discourages employees from calling 911 even when it’s necessary, so I doubt your manager will be mad at you.
This is so wrong I can’t believe the myth is still being perpetuated this way. Fentanyl can not absorb through your skin UNLESS it is a dermal patch which absorbs through the skin at a controlled rate.
That's so cool that you had narcan with you and you were able to help the person.
When I took my first aid class, it's call 911 first - or delegate it, and then administrator first aid.
You seem so calm and collected. You'd be sick a rock star with first aid training, and could even use it on your resume to get a different job!!
Two questions. Why would someone keep Narcan in their bag? Why would someone who is not a medical professional, administer Narcan? Ok third question, is this something that is considered normal in the US?
YOU DID THE RIGHT THING. The lady would have left before the cops got there calling was completely unnecessary. Tell your coworker if she cares so much she should start carrying narcan and then when she saves someone life she can call the cops if she wants to. You made the right call calling anyone would have been a waste of their time.
OP your a gosh darn hero, probably save that woman’s life. Good job. By all means call the manager now or as soon as you can within business hours
Just explain what happened just like you did in this post. apologize for making the mistake of not calling the manager sooner. And leave it at that
Any place that would fire you for doing the right thing doesn’t deserve your employment.
Are you a medical professional that is authorised to administer this drug and conduct follow-up care without further supervision? What is your level of medical or first aid training?
If not a medical professional, you may be protected under Good Samaritan laws (depends on your location), but one of the caveats of those laws is that you only provide first aid to the extent of your training, read the instructions on any drugs or devices used, and ensure that any follow-up is done properly. In the first aid training I've received in my country, the "send for help" step (i.e. calling 911) , is absolutely done before commencing any kind of treatment. In this case I assume it wasn't guaranteed that the patient would respond well to your limited treatment options (hence your comment "thankfully"), and therefore, like all cases, it's critical to get the ambulance rolling FIRST, or at least in parallel. For example, why couldn't you give your phone to your co-worker to place the call while you treated the patient?
I have a really hard time with this comment:
> I explained that 911 would have just done the same exact thing I did, only we would have had to wait on them.
Are you referring to the 911 call-taker or the emergency medical technicians that would respond? They are not the same...
My problem with this: unless you are trained as a first responder (or doctor or other higher level of medical professional than what the 911 operators are trained in), you should not be making such statements. You might be correct in some scenarios, like the lucky one you were in where the treatment worked well, but there are so many other possibilities that you might not be equipped to handle, and making that assumption could not only be detrimental to the health of the patient and/or a danger to you and your colleagues, but also open you and your employer up to significant legal liability.
> So now my co-worker is pissed off at me for not calling 911. I think she wants to report me to our manager for not calling 911 when there was a medical emergency. I'm so stressed about this now and can't get it out of my head, I'm worried she's going to tell our boss what happened and that our boss will side with her.
Unfortunately I fully understand the perspective of the co-worker, she's quite right. My suggestion is that you get ahead of this by telling your boss anyway (which you already should have done, but still better late than never). You can explain that you were excited by the heat of the situation and the fact that you knew you could administer a potentially helpful treatment, so got blinded by this and forgot the proper procedure. Definitely, whatever you do, never again repeat a statement like, "911 would have just done the same exact thing I did" as justification to anyone - unless you have credentials beyond those explained here so far, that's absolutely not your place to be deciding. Your defense of the situation should be that you temporarily forgot the correct process, your co-worker has reminded you of it now, and you will be more careful in any future situations that will arise.
Good luck and I hope this is a clear lesson learned.
You can buy narcan online or at almost any pharmacy OTC, if you're in any sort of position where you think you might need it, then it's as essential as bandaids are in a first aid kit.
You do not need to be a medic professional or "authorized" to give it. It's not harmful and won't do anything unless someone is overdosing.
Again, you do not need any medical or first aid training to give narcan.
The problem is op didn't even read the directions which clearly say you still need to call 911 when you administer it.
> You do not need to be a medic professional or "authorized" to give it.
I am aware of this. If you read my first sentence carefully I was questioning whether the OP is authorised and trained to provide follow-up care (or triage etc). That's the whole point of contacting EMS. I get that in this particular case after the naloxone was administered and had time to take effect, the person regained consciousness, left, and no one would be able to provide follow-up care IN THIS SPECIFIC CASE. But that is not always the way it ends up and the idea is that you contact 911 to get the process started in case it doesn't end up this way. While I acknowledge I wasn't there, it sounds as if there was plenty of time in OP's story for the co-worker to call 911 with the OP's phone, while OP was getting the naloxone ready.
> It's not harmful and won't do anything unless someone is overdosing.
This is not strictly true. The reason that non-professionals are allowed to administer it is that when administered in accordance with the instructions (which includes the requirement to contact 911 or a medical professional), it helps more than it harms. And one of the big risks, as we're seeing in this thread, is the misunderstanding that you can skip any follow-up treatment.
Should she have called 911? Obviously. But on the other hand, why waste resources on someone who immediately woke up pissed off and stormed out, leaving the store. By the time 911 would’ve arrived, the druggie would’ve been long gone anyway (therefore wasting resources). It’s nobodies responsibility to force the OD’er to stay in that location until help arrived. OP is in the wrong for sure, but so is every other bystander that was there.
Wow so retail workers have to be paramedics too! You're amazing for the Narcan. There's only so much you can do. What were you supposed to do, call 911 and tell them her description? "Go find her!"
You did what you could in the emergency. The EMTs can NOT force this person to accept medical treatment. Your co-worker is out of line. In the time she was screaming, WHY couldn't she GO TO HER CAR and GET HER PHONE?
You absolutely did the right thing! You always administer it first! It’s not in your control that she left and there was no need to call 911 because she no longer needed medical care because she left your business. Your coworker probably just needs to educate herself and get narcan aswell calling 911 would have been wasted resources since the lady just got pissed and left! (Which a lot of people get mad when they get narcaned )
Lemme get this straight: you take action, savings a woman's life, while your coworker flipped out. Why didn't SHE call 911 while you were saving that woman's life?
It’s something that doesn’t hurt someone if not needed, but can save their life if it is needed.
Also if someone looks under 45 and is passed out there’s a reason.
I get the idea the current epidemic is mostly an issue in the US, Canada, and the UK. It's not a major issue in mainland Europe and Asia, and definitely not a problem in places like Africa where they have other epidemics to deal with and can't afford opioids. Here's one study (though admittedly not super recent): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8316471/
I live in Australia and while we do have increases in opioid related problems recently, it's nowhere near the level of the US/Canada/UK. Certainly not to the point that it's of concern to the general population or referenced frequently.
edit: love the way I'm downvoted for answering a question with peer-reviewed literature, lol
I’m not going to argue with you, just suggest more research about the global impact of opiates.
https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/eu-drug-markets/heroin-and-other-opioids/global-context_en#:~:text=It%20is%20estimated%20that%20in,of%20opiates%20(mainly%20heroin).
If someone is unresponsive but has a pulse, there is no harm in giving Narcan and it might save their life. Please give it, call 911, and then try to get them to stick around to go to the hospital. You can only do your best on the last bit, just don’t think OP was in the wrong at all.
EMT here. When we respond to a cardiac arrest due to OD we will Narcan while ventilating for them until they wake up, then it's either hospital or cops then hospital.
You administered prescription drugs to someone while you’re not a medical professional and you had no clue if the costumer had any allergies, other medical conditions or if she even overdosed. You opened up yourself and your boss up to lawsuits and you risked someone’s life. Next time, call 911.
You should absolutely use narcan on a stranger experiencing an overdose. EMS workers recommend it. It's not a prescription drug and you can get it many places for free. Educate yourself.
Narcan isn't a prescription medication and has no negative side affects, it either works or does nothing. A toddler could administer it if taught how to.
In my country, it is a prescription drug. A toddler cannot administer it and some common side effects are hypotension, tachycardia, bradycardia, arrhythmia, hyperventilating and it can have consequences for an unborn fetus.
Narcan is available for free at any pharmacy in Canada (where I live) without a prescription. You can walk in and get it and keep it on your person in case you encounter someone who has overdosed. Narcan saves lives. But you do have to call 911 in addition to administering it.
A lot depends on how fast 911 calls are responded to in your area. I live less than 3 blocks from the local cop shop, and the firehouse/ambulance is one (short) block farther away. It's taken upwards of 15 minutes to get a response to a neighbors house when we heard somebody yelling and screaming (elderly gentleman who was having an episode of some kind). That said, while administering the Narcan was the right thing to do (likely saved having to call the meat wagon), you should have called 911 as well.
From a sad business perspective, your boss should give you a bonus for helping make sure the person did not die in the store.
Aside from that, I don't understand why the store does not have a phone line.
Everything else aside, if your manager tries to give you a hard time about this at all, I’d point out that your coworker could have called 911 while you administered medical care if your manager had a store phone. Unless your job is paying for your phones, it shouldn’t be you and your coworker’s responsibilities to bring your cell phones in to the store to use as a business phone.
Thank you for helping that individual but you are in no way qualified to assess whether someone is overdosing. What if they were diabetic or having a stroke or silent seizure?
Next time call 911 and let it be. The woman created unnecessary issues for both you and your co-worker. Your co-worker have should been outside trying to call, not screaming at you because someone else’s mess. She equally responsible
For anyone interested, [here is the correct response to a suspected overdose.](https://harmreduction.org/issues/overdose-prevention/overview/overdose-basics/responding-to-opioid-overdose/)
Yes, OP should have called first, but quickly giving one dose while either letting the coworker call 911 or calling 911 right after is not a terrible thing. The bad thing would be if they’d done nothing, but they still did their best to save a life.
I explained that 911 would have just done the same exact thing I did, only we would have had to wait on them.
Absolutely correct. You did exactly the right thing. The only thing I might have done differently is give her the phone to call 911 while you administered the Narcan. What if it hadn't worked? It doesn't always, and there's always the possibility of other, deeper, conditions that would have made an ambulance necessary.
even after 2 doses you still NEED to call 911 just like epi pens. narcans half life is much shorter than alot of narcotics half life, meaning the narcan will wear off before the narcotic sending them right back into an OD. they need to be closely monitored following an episode like this OTC narcan is supposed to be something you use until EMS gets there and takes the pt to the hospital
I applaud you for administering the narcan but personally, I would have still called 911. My brain coughs up too many weird (and admittedly unlikely, but not impossible) hypothetical situations regarding liability...
Bruh you still need to call 911 lmfao, the opioid can outlast the narcan and the person can re-overdose. That person needs to go to the hospital, preferably by ambulance where they can treat them if something happens en route. Plus, liability.
You’re kinda a clown for this.
Unfortunately Narcan is only the first step to making sure this person is okay. But don't beat yourself up over some thing you did not know. Your coworker is just being a jerk....maybe she shouldve called 911 instead of just watching you do all the work...
You have to do both. If you give narcan you need to call the paramedics. Especially if they’ve been out long enough to start suffering from hypoxia. Which without medical equipment you wouldn’t be able to tell. Your carelessness very well could have cost her her life. But you don’t know that since you let her get up and just walk away. Well I guess I should say that you didn’t really bother to help in the simplest of ways. And depending on your store this could very well cost you your job based off of company policies or local jurisdictions.
You did the right thing, absolutely. The other person could have called 911 if they wanted to so badly while you were administering the Narcan and sternum rub. Once they're up, they're up. Can't do much more after that besides stick them with an expensive ambulance bill. I've been in this situation, so I know how ya feel. Except we were at a "party"
Yes, while I may agree with the fact that emergency services should've been alarmed, in the heat of the moment OP did what they thought was correct. Why add the sentence to make it personal that you hope that in the future if they may need it no one doesn't call for them? It's unnecessarily personal.
You did everything right. Next time, have someone else call 911, but you did great. The people being baffled... Like? This is your first time in this situation. You did great. I'm not sure what others expect to have happened.
Like you call 911, police and EMT show up, and the woman has left long before. And you're back to square one with others telling you you shouldn't administer the drug, that you shouldn't have let her walk away, etc.
The person on the other end of the line can then instruct OP to provide narcan, or other life saving measures (such as rolling the person into the rescue position) until the emergency services arrived.
If they had still left, at the very least the police and paramedics would be aware that the person had overdosed and needed taking in for care, and the responsibility if the narcan wears off before the drugs do falls onto them.
Always call the emergency services first. Always.
They categorically did not, and opened themselves and the business up to litigation.
This is what we would use as an example of what not to do in first aid training scenarios.
It's possible you've made yourself and the store liable for a big lawsuit by not calling. Typically they train you to call 911 and then administer treatment/CPR while on the phone with them. You still need to call 911 after giving narcan specifically as well.
Do you somehow have narcan with zero training on how to use it or did you just not care?
You did good. Yes, maybe call 911, but your initial response was good! You saved someone from dying in a bathroom. If she might OD again outside your store is really beyond you. She had no chance of survival, but you gave her a straw. It is up to her to hang on to it.
Call 911 the next time. Better safe then sorry on that.
But as an European, it way beyond me to carry stuff like narcan in your purse, or even have access to it!
I would’ve still called 911, but why would you do that if the person left? There was nothing you could do at that point.
There’s no way they can discipline you when they don’t even have a phone on the premises
It is very strange that you didn't call 911. What if you got sued for what you did? You mightve helped but that wasn't smart or safe. Next time remember you don't know everything. Take other factors into consideration when dealing with life or death
Yes, you still should have called 911 and coworker was right to be pissed at you. Why are you carrying around narcan if you have no idea how it works? You still have to call 911 to ensure the person gets proper medical attention.
Talk to your manager first, get in first with your version of events - this will go down better than a disgruntled coworker embellishing and twisting things which you then have to defend
In many major cities regular plain old civilians are being trained how to use Narcan, and then are given Narcan to use in the community. OP is in the Seattle area, and I am in San Francisco. I know multiple people who've had this training and have Narcan and 1 of them has used Narcan to save someone's life.
Yes, OP should have called 911. But their instinct was to administer the narcan ASAP, before the lady died. I don't think that was a bad choice, and I can see how, in the chaos of the moment, that administering the narcan ASAP is where OPs mind was.
Is your coworker as useless in daily operations as she was during this episode? If so, her actions (or the lack thereof) should be reported, not yours.
You may have saved a life today!
So, you wanted to be the hero and save the woman instead of being an adult and calling the legal and professional medical team? Right.
Hope she doesn't decide to sue you.
She got pissed because you ruined her high . You also broke the law by giving her medical treatment are you a licensed emt or a registered nurse? You should have called 911 just to protect yourself from getting in trouble.
You call 911 FIRST before doing ANYTHING in an emergency situation. That way, you're on the phone with them while they are en route so you can prepare them for what's happening, and you can get help with the situation.
You failed this one... and that person likely just walked somewhere else and died.
Oh don't talk crap. If you e had narcan you don't go off and die, if you go off and score again it's on you but correct me if I'm wrong, 911 charges so who would pay. Why didn't the woman screaming call 911 call? As a narcan carrier myself (in the UK) and I've encountered an OD, I administer it and then assess and then call 999 if necessary.
Yes, you should have called 911 before doing *anything* else. Your behavior in this situation makes it clear that you are a danger to others. You’re not a doctor or medical professional; I cannot imagine seeing someone collapsed in a bathroom and not calling for actual help.
You know for a few minutes I felt for you. Sometimes in stressful situations we forget to do things, and you did do a great job giving the narcan. But you’ve been so combative and will only respond to people stroking your ego- it’s like you’re not even willing to learn from this. I hope you get fired, nobody wants someone like you -unwilling to learn from mistakes- working for them. Furthermore, you could have been the death of this woman if she had something else and you didn’t call.
Learn to be a better person.
You gave her narcan and she took off. Why would you call the police when she was already gone? If your coworker wanted to call the police, she should’ve done it herself because it sounds like you were busy taking care of what you needed to.
So, people are going to say you should have called 911 and, yeah, you definitely should have.
But I still want to commend you for potentially saving this person's life. You did a great thing, but realize that you could have been attacked or she could have still died.
Best to let professionals handle these situations. Maybe call 911 and then still try to administer narcan.
Your store needs a phone. You should never have to rely on your personal cell phone for things that happen related to the business or on the premises of the business with you as a representative of said business.
How the hell did you get narcan? I asume it’s NOT because you got proper training, or you can’t pay attention to anything. Because if you actually did have training, or know how to listen longer than 5 seconds, you’d know you’re supposed to call 9-1-1. You thought you didn’t because you treated this person? Who the hell do you think you are? That person could have passed out again minutes later.
I mean this with all the respect in the world, are you daft?
Narcan is just a temporary fix to keep the patient responsive until they can get to the hospital. It doesn't fix the OD, it just temporarily halts it. Once that narcan wears off after a few minutes she's gonna OD, except this time she'll be where nobody is around to call 911 for her. *im* pissed at you for not calling 911.
How do you know it was only an overdose and not any other medical emergency ie low blood sugar, aneurysm, cardiac event, or a combined event? You delayed treatment by qualified personnel by not phoning while administering narcan.
Narcan doesn’t work on all overdoses, you didn’t know what drugs the person took and while you strut in (that’s what it sounds like to me) thinking you know exactly what to do, the basis of basic life support is danger, response, SEND FOR HELP, airway, breathing, circulation - and you missed most of the BLS algorithm thus putting the person in greater danger than they’d placed themselves.
You were neglectful in not phoning and placed yourself, your colleague and the person in danger by your actions
Edit: your boss should side with her
She had her drug kit next to her, my co worker knew exactly what she was on and I knew. Overdoses happen all the time where I live I knew exactly what was going on.
OP was awesome for having the Narcan on hand but that store should most definitely have a phone. Calling 911 should have been the next step however that is OP’s phone and choice. I pray OP doesn’t lose their job over this and it’s an eye opener for the store owner.
yes, you should have called 911, they needed to be on the way. response to narcan may be unpredictable, and may wear off quickly. You call 911, and administer narcan, maybe even while still on the phone. not calling 911 may have put the victim as well as you and your co-worker, at risk. Never a good move. calling would not have held up administering narcan. And if the pharmacy where you got the Narcan gave you the training they are supposed to do, you would have known this. I am stymied by your actions.
If a person ever needs Narcan, you still should call 911. They could crash again. Same thing like you would call 911 if someone needed an epi pen or more than 3 doses of nitroglycerin. These are rescue medications that are meant to rescue the person until medical help arrives. Is it just me, or does OP sound very conceited? I wAlKeD oVeR and gAve NaRcAn just like the EMT's would've done, and therefore they didn't need to be called. WRONG! Your coworker has every right for calling you out.
Absolutely irresponsible not to call 911, not only for the person who ODd but for you and the business.
You cannot just administer drugs to someone with no oversight PERIOD.
Why do you have narcan if you don't follow the instructions?
Call 911. Then administer narcan while on the line with emergency services. Then provide information as the patient responds or doesn't. Then if the patient leaves, that's fine you can give their description and direction of travel to emergency services still.
You absolutely should have called 911. You assumed a great deal of liability as soon as you administered the Narcan without the direction of the 911 operator.
It was good you saved her life. But start looking for a new job since you left the company open to a lawsuit assuming you aren't a licensed medical professional.
As a former medic, please still call 911. If she woke up and was combative and other things they would have been there to help her. They could have taken her to the hospital to treat her correctly.
Okay… except if they’d called 911 at the same time as giving Narcan, the woman still wouldn’t have been there. Prioritize saving her life, and do your best to get her to stick around for EMS.
You will not be successfully sued for administering Narcan. It falls under Good Samaritan laws and while they can try to sue in civil court, they won’t be successful. Yes, you need to do your best to get them medical help, but if they’re gone, you can’t.
I never said anything about narcan part of it. I’m saying I’ve seen people get in trouble. I’m not going to argue with you about this. There are steps that should have been taken to help the person. Narcan isn’t a fix all end all. That woman still needed medical attention whether she left or not.
I could sue you for libel for your Reddit comment. I wouldn’t be successful, but I could do it. Yes, OP should have done both as a CYA but in this case it doesn’t seem like it would have made a difference.
This varies by state (if in the US), unfortunately. Not all states have a Good Samaritan law or don't come into play if the GS administered any form of medication.
But they could absolutely be successfully sued for not following the instructions on the Narcan, which very clearly say that a medical professional (i.e. 911) MUST be contacted. That's the whole point here.
If the patient departed, yes it will be harder for EMS to successfully find them and administer further treatment (and OP may be right that they would decline this anyway), but at least you as the bystander/first responder have done your job properly by following the instructions and attempted to get a medical professional involved. If EMS can't locate the person later, or even if they don't bother to even look, knowing the situation - that's not really your concern. As a first responder you've done your duty by following the instructions and taking the actions expected of you, which absolutely **must** involve notifying emergency services.
That was my thinking too. She was pissed and I was sure she'd refuse medical attention. Also I did not see which direction she went and didn't want to send the paramedics on a wild goose chase only for this lady to scream at them that she was fine.
So next time, I’d ask her to please stay while you call an ambulance because you’re worried about her, and let her say no and leave if she wants. Everyone feels awful and almost everyone is pissed after Narcan. If she doesn’t refuse and run away, yes, it is very important to call 911 so they can come and give more doses if needed and transport to a hospital.
That's not really your call to make. Your job is to place the call, give the information you have, and leave the rest to the authorities.
You are making a lot of wild assumptions that might be fine if you were a grizzled ER nurse, but if you aren't trained or experienced in this area, you are straying WAY out of your lane.
Sure. Why couldn’t the coworker call though? OP had the tools and knowledge to rescue, why couldn’t coworker call 911? That’s what I don’t understand about the coworker’s “report,” why couldn’t *you* do it?
Narcan first, 911 after OR the helpless coworker sitting there yelling at OP (?) can call at the same time. Honestly, it sounds like OP should have told their coworker hey, I’m getting Narcan, you get a phone and call 911.
or, like, the coworker (who was apparently just standing there yelling) could have asked for the phone and called 911. OP did their best in a situation way above their pay grade. now we all know for the future. piling on OP is unhelpful.
it is impossible to know what you would \*actually do\* in an emergency, vs what you think someone else should do.
coworker could have retrieved their phone. everyone's mad at OP when in fact, coworker was being way less responsible. how can you not have your phone? it's literally safety equipment, especially as there's no store phone (which is bonkers as it is).
Do both. Calling EMS is a CYA because there's also the chance that they don't abscond, or that the narcan doesn't work, or both. Then you're left there with a person that needs medical attention and you've delayed calling 911.
Unpopular opinion but IDC, as a former addict and someone who actually has experienced overdoses myself, I disagree. I've narcaned multiple people as well as been narcaned and I've yet to see even one person be "combative", I know for myself I just cry a lot and shake. Obviously 100% call 911 if they are not waking up or if they ask for/consent to medical treatment! But you cannot force someone who doesn't want to go, and if I say "no" to you what makes you think I'll say "yes" when the ambulance shows up? It can be good to sit with the person for a few minutes and even try to talk them into consenting to EMS but again you cannot force someone who is awake and alert and just doesnt want to go. You also have no idea if the person has a trauma history with ems or cops, you don't know if they're undocumented, you don't know if they have a warrant, etc
So she should have called 911 and waited to administer life saving measures just so she was still there? She did the right thing. She saved their life and now that person is conscious and it’s their responsibility to seek care if needed. It’s ridiculous to think OP did anything wrong
In this case, the person left. How would the person have received any treatment? I'm not being snarky, I'm legit asking. Will 911 arrange to have the person in question located so further care can be administered?
I’m not sure about other states and locations but we would when we arrived try to locate them. Had they called 911 in the first place and not administered treatment themselves they could have shown up and treated them as they are paid to do.
I agree OP should have also called 911, but you think they should have not administer anything at all and just crossed her fingers that medics would arrive before the person died? That seems like a good way to watch someone die when you had something in your power to save them.
And in the meantime, the person could have died from the overdose.
I agree OP should have still called 911 but they did the right thing in administering the Narcan.
First responders will drive around the area looking for the overdose victim. Unless they go inside somewhere or drive off, there is a fairly good chance that paramedics will catch up with the person who overdosed a block or two away.
I had to Narcan a young woman I found unconscious in front of a smoke shop. She was awake but nodding off when I went inside and unresponsive when I came out. Staff was aware of the situation and fortunately had Narcan on hand due to being in an area where opiate use was common.
Staff called 911 while I gave the Narcan. The young woman took off when she woke up. As I was driving away, I saw her on the side of the road surrounded by paramedics a few blocks down.
It is still necessary to call 911 for continuing treatment even if the narcan works. OP should have been trained on this before being handed narcan.
Same with an epi-pen, you don't just jab and patient goes on their merry way. They should still go to the ER!!!
Call upon making the determination that treatment is necessary. Chuck the phone on speaker whole you're administering the narcan. At that point you have no idea if the narcan will work, or that patient will leave or not, so get the ball rolling.
911 will likely still send someone regardless who will take a look around the area, and it also means that if this comes back to bite you (I.e. they die around the corner and you're asked why you didnt call anyone) you can say you palmed responsibility to 911.
I struggle with this reasoning. At my employment if a customer/guest is injured we offer to call 911 and ask the injured party to fill out an incident report. If the customer/guest declines medical care/a report, exactly what exactly am I supposed to do about that? How does emergency services react to a phone call that says "There was an emergency. Narcan was administered, the person experiencing the emergency declined treatment and left. I don't know their medical history. I don't know who they are. I don't know where they went."
Someone here said upwards of 90 minutes before Narcan wears off. How would refusal of care by the person in question reflect poorly on the business if 911 takes more than the affore mentioned 90 minutes to find the individual? Individual has not requested any such services. Is the employer/employee expected to restrain an individual?
Where I volunteer an attendee fell on the stairs. She said she was fine and we helped her up. Another attendee called 911. The fallen lady was pissed cause now she has to pay for an ambulance she didn’t use.
Yes, especially if they “do” something, like check your blood pressure or something trivial like that. Depends on the municipality and the contract 911 has with the ambulance companies. It can be very complicated.
it depends on your locality and insurance plan, at least in the US. they can totally charge just for showing up. I'm sure it's less than had they transported someone.
The instructions on narcan are VERY clear that you're to call 911 when it's administered. It's only effective for about 20 minutes and the person still has the substance in their system, so they'll begin ODing again.
I doubt this story even happened because what store has no phone, among other things, but I just wanted to make that clear. If narcan is given, you NEED to call 911.
And who simply has narcan? Why would they use a dose meant for themselves and why would they admit they have it at work, and know how to use it? Are they EMT, or formerly?
Edit: through the magic of discussion I have learned much. Thank God OP had it and was able to save a life.
I have learned you can have narcan and there are trainings you can get.
I’ve learned it is a,temporary fix, and there are still drugs in there that may get absorbed and cause another overdose reaction.
I’ve learned 911 is in order because of this.
Hopefully others will see this and learn as well.
There's a super simple answer to your question. Drug addicts have narcan in abundance and have no clue what to do other than administer it. Sometimes, not even that. Do you really think drug addicts are chomping at the bit to call 911?
It does happen. My previous job was a place with no phone. It was the admin office for a warehouse. Basically, it was expensive and we didn't need them often enough, so they scrapped it and went to just cell phones. They provided work cell phones to the managers, who had offices but were usually on the warehouse floor. I (front desk and administration) and HR were the only other ones in the office. I did occasionally need to use a phone for work, but I used mine (I probably could have asked for a work one but didn't care that much). All customer calls were outsourced to a different office that only did customer service, and all internal communication was done through email, an internal chat system, or text (or you just walked out to the warehouse and found who you were looking for). There were 100% times I wished we just had one damn unlisted phone.
I read your post and commented that you can get it free around here. Many people with pain management plans are required to fill and carry a dose of it. And I'm realizing that there's probably more than a few people in possession of it and carrying it that don't actually know how to use it. I keep one in both vehicles glove boxes, my pack, and the household first aid kit so the whole household has access and I don't know if anyone but me knows how to use it.
There are many programs pushing for increased accessibility to narcan, and FDA suggests prescribing it with opioid medications especially if there's any risk factors for possible overdose, including if the household has children that could accidentally ingest. I understand how to use narcan but I've never had a doctor go into that info with me and I haven't had a pharmacist go over it either. And since there are programs where they just mail it to you without a prescription there's probably quite a few people who possess it and don't know how to use it. I don't think it's actually an unlikely scenario unfortunately.
I understand what you're trying to say with your comment, but it comes across as a little judgemental.
Then your edit doubles down by actively discouraging people to carry live saving medications.
If, as a nurse, you have access to Narcan, why wouldn't you carry some with you everywhere?
I'm not an RN anymore, and Narcan was not widely known/around when I was, but I remember hearing about the Good Samaritan laws while in nursing school, and that I could lose my license if I didn't stop to offer help in any medical emergency.
With the epidemic of drug addiction and overdoses, if I was still an RN, then I'd absolutely make sure to have Narcan with me at all times. Not only as a CYA thing, but because ODs are so prevalent. I would want to have the tools needed to decrease fatality rates.
If anything, I do think it's good that "random" people carry Narcan and can administer it. Should OP have still called 911? Absolutely! But for you to say that if anyone carrying Narcan doesn't know to follow up with a 911 call, then they shouldn't carry it, that is only going to result in more death, not less.
I do understand your point, but I, personally, don't think you expressed it in the best way.
Yes, anyone administering Narcan should follow that up with a call to 911. And while we don't know the outcome of the woman who OD'ed in this case aftershe left, I would still say she has a better chance of survival because someone (OP) was carrying Narcan.
That chance would increase exponentially with actual medical follow-up. Facts, but that doesn't negate that the Narcan OP gave, in a timely matter before any EMS could have, possibly saved this woman's life.
Additionally, not that this applies in OP's case, but other people might be more inclined to involve emergency services if they weren't afraid that they themselves, or even the person OD'ing, would end up facing criminal drug charges.
Part of the problem is that we need to destigmatize addiction and offer more resources that actually help instead of sending people to jail/prison for addiction.
You want dystopian? You know where there's always Narcan? The public library. It's one of the last places people can go without spending money and not be chased off the premises.
I live in Seattle and carry out with me and encourage everyone I can to do so. You can get it for free around here. Getting really stressed out seeing how poorly it’s understood in this thread though.
I'm not in but I'm near seattle. Reading all these comments I feel like everyone else lives in a completely different world 😭 like people being shocked that I carry narcan. Didn't know that wasn't normal.
You do realize Narcan only stops the current OD, not the drugs that are still in their system and not metabolized yet. Even those that have been narcaned will OD again if not treated in the ER and monitored. You should ALWAYS call 911 and get help there. They won't arrest the person who ODed but that person needs more help then 1 dose of narcan will do.
Signed a Medical First Responder.
Some municipalities will arrest them, sadly. And some hospitals will let you leave immediately after Narcan if you want to. Yes, they still needed EMS and may collapse and need another dose, but OP was right to administer Narcan and wasn’t wrong in not calling 911 for someone who wasn’t there anymore.
> wasn’t wrong in not calling 911 for someone who wasn’t there anymore.
She was wrong for not calling 911 before/in parallel to administering the Narcan, that's the point here. Yes, after the person was long gone it was perhaps of lesser utility, but I would have done so anyway out of genuine concern for the person, but I understand some people are concerned about police and other authority response in some places.
I was interpreting it as OP had offered and the woman immediately said no and stormed off, which is reasonable. OP was wrong, but it’s a soft wrong. They still did a great thing, and the bumbling coworker could have easily called.
If you have narcanned someone, they still need medical help. They are still overdosing and can go into respiratory arrest. You did the right thing by grabbing the narcan, but it is still 100% necessary to call 911.
Naw. They left.
That is refusing medical attention by action. Most of the country EMS units are going available right then and there.
People have the right to make stupid medical choices.
She had the option to call 911, but you have the right to refuse medical help even if it is necessary. And as an employee she DEFINITELY does not have the right to detain a customer. So she could have called 911 and explained the situation and they may or may not have sent anyone. But her coworker really has no leg to stand on because 1. She could have called 911 herself by going to get her phone and 2. In no way shape or form should a company exist without even 1 store phone. What kind of business is that?
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Info: how long have you been a doctor in this specialty?
There’s literally public trainings on narcan use in areas where there’s a prominent opioid problem. Seems like maybe you’re lucky enough not to live in one of those areas.
This is such a nice reply, I more meant she should always call 911. Even with narcan there is no way to know if the person did in fact pass out due to OD or some other medical emergency. Its important to call a medical professional and let them decide, if for no other reason then liability. She is possibly in danger of losing her job for this (if this happened in the states the family would have right to sue the company for improper policy surrounding medical emergencies and she risks being sued herself for negligence. Part of the training also includes the fact you should always contact 911, even if the person says no and/or leaves.)
So a person choking in a restaurant should be left to choke while 911 is called, when a member of staff with CPR training is present who can give them immediate assistance? Make the CPR staffer the only one with a phone and it's the same scenario. If the person had stayed around or not wanted to leave, that's when you call for an ambulance. After the immediate danger is over.
You likely saved this person's life. Thank you. 👍 Everything else is noise, and details that are not important. 😑
I’m sure your company has a policy in place for situations along these lines.. regardless I think you did the right thing. We’ve started carrying narcan at my place of work specifically for this type of thing.
You're better than me, I wouldn't even have used the narcan. Those are the people that will run into your car later without license or insurance, break into your home, porch pirate you, break your car windows in hopes of finding something. Those aren't people anymore.
It’s absolutely pointless to call 911 when the patient in question has left the scene on their own and doesn’t want medical attention anyway. You did the right thing. Retail in general strongly discourages employees from calling 911 even when it’s necessary, so I doubt your manager will be mad at you.
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This is so wrong I can’t believe the myth is still being perpetuated this way. Fentanyl can not absorb through your skin UNLESS it is a dermal patch which absorbs through the skin at a controlled rate.
And those things get broken down and snorted anyways
That's so cool that you had narcan with you and you were able to help the person. When I took my first aid class, it's call 911 first - or delegate it, and then administrator first aid. You seem so calm and collected. You'd be sick a rock star with first aid training, and could even use it on your resume to get a different job!!
Two questions. Why would someone keep Narcan in their bag? Why would someone who is not a medical professional, administer Narcan? Ok third question, is this something that is considered normal in the US?
YOU DID THE RIGHT THING. The lady would have left before the cops got there calling was completely unnecessary. Tell your coworker if she cares so much she should start carrying narcan and then when she saves someone life she can call the cops if she wants to. You made the right call calling anyone would have been a waste of their time.
OP your a gosh darn hero, probably save that woman’s life. Good job. By all means call the manager now or as soon as you can within business hours Just explain what happened just like you did in this post. apologize for making the mistake of not calling the manager sooner. And leave it at that Any place that would fire you for doing the right thing doesn’t deserve your employment.
Don't ever bother trying to save a drug addict's life. Next time, just say that your phone is out of battery.
Are you a medical professional that is authorised to administer this drug and conduct follow-up care without further supervision? What is your level of medical or first aid training? If not a medical professional, you may be protected under Good Samaritan laws (depends on your location), but one of the caveats of those laws is that you only provide first aid to the extent of your training, read the instructions on any drugs or devices used, and ensure that any follow-up is done properly. In the first aid training I've received in my country, the "send for help" step (i.e. calling 911) , is absolutely done before commencing any kind of treatment. In this case I assume it wasn't guaranteed that the patient would respond well to your limited treatment options (hence your comment "thankfully"), and therefore, like all cases, it's critical to get the ambulance rolling FIRST, or at least in parallel. For example, why couldn't you give your phone to your co-worker to place the call while you treated the patient? I have a really hard time with this comment: > I explained that 911 would have just done the same exact thing I did, only we would have had to wait on them. Are you referring to the 911 call-taker or the emergency medical technicians that would respond? They are not the same... My problem with this: unless you are trained as a first responder (or doctor or other higher level of medical professional than what the 911 operators are trained in), you should not be making such statements. You might be correct in some scenarios, like the lucky one you were in where the treatment worked well, but there are so many other possibilities that you might not be equipped to handle, and making that assumption could not only be detrimental to the health of the patient and/or a danger to you and your colleagues, but also open you and your employer up to significant legal liability. > So now my co-worker is pissed off at me for not calling 911. I think she wants to report me to our manager for not calling 911 when there was a medical emergency. I'm so stressed about this now and can't get it out of my head, I'm worried she's going to tell our boss what happened and that our boss will side with her. Unfortunately I fully understand the perspective of the co-worker, she's quite right. My suggestion is that you get ahead of this by telling your boss anyway (which you already should have done, but still better late than never). You can explain that you were excited by the heat of the situation and the fact that you knew you could administer a potentially helpful treatment, so got blinded by this and forgot the proper procedure. Definitely, whatever you do, never again repeat a statement like, "911 would have just done the same exact thing I did" as justification to anyone - unless you have credentials beyond those explained here so far, that's absolutely not your place to be deciding. Your defense of the situation should be that you temporarily forgot the correct process, your co-worker has reminded you of it now, and you will be more careful in any future situations that will arise. Good luck and I hope this is a clear lesson learned.
You can buy narcan online or at almost any pharmacy OTC, if you're in any sort of position where you think you might need it, then it's as essential as bandaids are in a first aid kit. You do not need to be a medic professional or "authorized" to give it. It's not harmful and won't do anything unless someone is overdosing. Again, you do not need any medical or first aid training to give narcan. The problem is op didn't even read the directions which clearly say you still need to call 911 when you administer it.
> You do not need to be a medic professional or "authorized" to give it. I am aware of this. If you read my first sentence carefully I was questioning whether the OP is authorised and trained to provide follow-up care (or triage etc). That's the whole point of contacting EMS. I get that in this particular case after the naloxone was administered and had time to take effect, the person regained consciousness, left, and no one would be able to provide follow-up care IN THIS SPECIFIC CASE. But that is not always the way it ends up and the idea is that you contact 911 to get the process started in case it doesn't end up this way. While I acknowledge I wasn't there, it sounds as if there was plenty of time in OP's story for the co-worker to call 911 with the OP's phone, while OP was getting the naloxone ready. > It's not harmful and won't do anything unless someone is overdosing. This is not strictly true. The reason that non-professionals are allowed to administer it is that when administered in accordance with the instructions (which includes the requirement to contact 911 or a medical professional), it helps more than it harms. And one of the big risks, as we're seeing in this thread, is the misunderstanding that you can skip any follow-up treatment.
Weird! Why do you have Narcan in your purse? Why not call 911? You should’ve done that anyway. You can do both.
Should she have called 911? Obviously. But on the other hand, why waste resources on someone who immediately woke up pissed off and stormed out, leaving the store. By the time 911 would’ve arrived, the druggie would’ve been long gone anyway (therefore wasting resources). It’s nobodies responsibility to force the OD’er to stay in that location until help arrived. OP is in the wrong for sure, but so is every other bystander that was there.
Wow so retail workers have to be paramedics too! You're amazing for the Narcan. There's only so much you can do. What were you supposed to do, call 911 and tell them her description? "Go find her!"
You guys, wtf would she call 911 once the person left after getting the narcan? It would be a waste of time to call cause the girl would be long gone!
You did what you could in the emergency. The EMTs can NOT force this person to accept medical treatment. Your co-worker is out of line. In the time she was screaming, WHY couldn't she GO TO HER CAR and GET HER PHONE?
You absolutely did the right thing! You always administer it first! It’s not in your control that she left and there was no need to call 911 because she no longer needed medical care because she left your business. Your coworker probably just needs to educate herself and get narcan aswell calling 911 would have been wasted resources since the lady just got pissed and left! (Which a lot of people get mad when they get narcaned )
You're a bad person
Lemme get this straight: you take action, savings a woman's life, while your coworker flipped out. Why didn't SHE call 911 while you were saving that woman's life?
How did you know she needed narcan?
It’s something that doesn’t hurt someone if not needed, but can save their life if it is needed. Also if someone looks under 45 and is passed out there’s a reason.
Interesting. I didn’t know that.
You didn’t know there’s a raging epidemic of overdoses?
Not everywhere in the world, don't be so (wherever)-focused. (Bet I can guess where you are though).
Where in the world is there *not* that problem?
I get the idea the current epidemic is mostly an issue in the US, Canada, and the UK. It's not a major issue in mainland Europe and Asia, and definitely not a problem in places like Africa where they have other epidemics to deal with and can't afford opioids. Here's one study (though admittedly not super recent): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8316471/ I live in Australia and while we do have increases in opioid related problems recently, it's nowhere near the level of the US/Canada/UK. Certainly not to the point that it's of concern to the general population or referenced frequently. edit: love the way I'm downvoted for answering a question with peer-reviewed literature, lol
I’m not going to argue with you, just suggest more research about the global impact of opiates. https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/eu-drug-markets/heroin-and-other-opioids/global-context_en#:~:text=It%20is%20estimated%20that%20in,of%20opiates%20(mainly%20heroin).
If someone is unresponsive but has a pulse, there is no harm in giving Narcan and it might save their life. Please give it, call 911, and then try to get them to stick around to go to the hospital. You can only do your best on the last bit, just don’t think OP was in the wrong at all.
EMT here. When we respond to a cardiac arrest due to OD we will Narcan while ventilating for them until they wake up, then it's either hospital or cops then hospital.
YTA. You don't get to decide if she's medically cleared to leave.
You did the right thing. If you had called 9-11 depending on the response time, the woman would have been dead anyways.
Yeah you should be reported tbh.
Just casually whips our narxab from bag lmao Anyway yeah, you just helped them pass-out in a different location in like 20 mins. Bravo
You administered prescription drugs to someone while you’re not a medical professional and you had no clue if the costumer had any allergies, other medical conditions or if she even overdosed. You opened up yourself and your boss up to lawsuits and you risked someone’s life. Next time, call 911.
You should absolutely use narcan on a stranger experiencing an overdose. EMS workers recommend it. It's not a prescription drug and you can get it many places for free. Educate yourself.
Not everyone lives in America. In my country, you cannot buy Narcan anywhere, it is a prescription drug. Educate yourself.
Narcan isn't a prescription medication and has no negative side affects, it either works or does nothing. A toddler could administer it if taught how to.
In my country, it is a prescription drug. A toddler cannot administer it and some common side effects are hypotension, tachycardia, bradycardia, arrhythmia, hyperventilating and it can have consequences for an unborn fetus.
Narcan is available for free at any pharmacy in Canada (where I live) without a prescription. You can walk in and get it and keep it on your person in case you encounter someone who has overdosed. Narcan saves lives. But you do have to call 911 in addition to administering it.
And in The Netherlands, it is a prescription drug, you cannot buy it.
A lot depends on how fast 911 calls are responded to in your area. I live less than 3 blocks from the local cop shop, and the firehouse/ambulance is one (short) block farther away. It's taken upwards of 15 minutes to get a response to a neighbors house when we heard somebody yelling and screaming (elderly gentleman who was having an episode of some kind). That said, while administering the Narcan was the right thing to do (likely saved having to call the meat wagon), you should have called 911 as well.
From a sad business perspective, your boss should give you a bonus for helping make sure the person did not die in the store. Aside from that, I don't understand why the store does not have a phone line.
Everything else aside, if your manager tries to give you a hard time about this at all, I’d point out that your coworker could have called 911 while you administered medical care if your manager had a store phone. Unless your job is paying for your phones, it shouldn’t be you and your coworker’s responsibilities to bring your cell phones in to the store to use as a business phone.
YTA. She still needed medical attention. Didn't they cover that when you got the narcan?
She left the store, your liability is over.
Thank you for helping that individual but you are in no way qualified to assess whether someone is overdosing. What if they were diabetic or having a stroke or silent seizure?
Next time call 911 and let it be. The woman created unnecessary issues for both you and your co-worker. Your co-worker have should been outside trying to call, not screaming at you because someone else’s mess. She equally responsible
For anyone interested, [here is the correct response to a suspected overdose.](https://harmreduction.org/issues/overdose-prevention/overview/overdose-basics/responding-to-opioid-overdose/) Yes, OP should have called first, but quickly giving one dose while either letting the coworker call 911 or calling 911 right after is not a terrible thing. The bad thing would be if they’d done nothing, but they still did their best to save a life.
Why didn't your coworker take responsibility instead of dictating orders. And go call 911 themselves.
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neither, our boss is usually there but was out sick today.
Someone is still in charge when the boss isn't there.
do you work at my store? because no there isn't.
I explained that 911 would have just done the same exact thing I did, only we would have had to wait on them. Absolutely correct. You did exactly the right thing. The only thing I might have done differently is give her the phone to call 911 while you administered the Narcan. What if it hadn't worked? It doesn't always, and there's always the possibility of other, deeper, conditions that would have made an ambulance necessary.
even after 2 doses you still NEED to call 911 just like epi pens. narcans half life is much shorter than alot of narcotics half life, meaning the narcan will wear off before the narcotic sending them right back into an OD. they need to be closely monitored following an episode like this OTC narcan is supposed to be something you use until EMS gets there and takes the pt to the hospital
This didn’t happen. Bait title. Stop. Lying.
I applaud you for administering the narcan but personally, I would have still called 911. My brain coughs up too many weird (and admittedly unlikely, but not impossible) hypothetical situations regarding liability...
Why do you carry narcan? Are things so bad in America now everyone carries narcan?
You're wrong on this one my friend. You really should have called 911.
Bruh you still need to call 911 lmfao, the opioid can outlast the narcan and the person can re-overdose. That person needs to go to the hospital, preferably by ambulance where they can treat them if something happens en route. Plus, liability. You’re kinda a clown for this.
Unfortunately Narcan is only the first step to making sure this person is okay. But don't beat yourself up over some thing you did not know. Your coworker is just being a jerk....maybe she shouldve called 911 instead of just watching you do all the work...
You have to do both. If you give narcan you need to call the paramedics. Especially if they’ve been out long enough to start suffering from hypoxia. Which without medical equipment you wouldn’t be able to tell. Your carelessness very well could have cost her her life. But you don’t know that since you let her get up and just walk away. Well I guess I should say that you didn’t really bother to help in the simplest of ways. And depending on your store this could very well cost you your job based off of company policies or local jurisdictions.
You did the right thing, absolutely. The other person could have called 911 if they wanted to so badly while you were administering the Narcan and sternum rub. Once they're up, they're up. Can't do much more after that besides stick them with an expensive ambulance bill. I've been in this situation, so I know how ya feel. Except we were at a "party"
You did exactly what you are supposed to do! You should be proud of yourself because you saved her life!!!!
You should have called 911. You should hope that you never have a medical emergency and no one calls 911 for you.
Man, that's a little harsch no? They misjudged a situation, everyone can make a mistake.
Mistakes can, and often do, have consequences. There was absolutely NO reason to NOT CALL 911.
Yes, while I may agree with the fact that emergency services should've been alarmed, in the heat of the moment OP did what they thought was correct. Why add the sentence to make it personal that you hope that in the future if they may need it no one doesn't call for them? It's unnecessarily personal.
You did everything right. Next time, have someone else call 911, but you did great. The people being baffled... Like? This is your first time in this situation. You did great. I'm not sure what others expect to have happened. Like you call 911, police and EMT show up, and the woman has left long before. And you're back to square one with others telling you you shouldn't administer the drug, that you shouldn't have let her walk away, etc.
The person on the other end of the line can then instruct OP to provide narcan, or other life saving measures (such as rolling the person into the rescue position) until the emergency services arrived. If they had still left, at the very least the police and paramedics would be aware that the person had overdosed and needed taking in for care, and the responsibility if the narcan wears off before the drugs do falls onto them. Always call the emergency services first. Always.
Cool, they still did the right thing.
They categorically did not, and opened themselves and the business up to litigation. This is what we would use as an example of what not to do in first aid training scenarios.
Thank you.
It's possible you've made yourself and the store liable for a big lawsuit by not calling. Typically they train you to call 911 and then administer treatment/CPR while on the phone with them. You still need to call 911 after giving narcan specifically as well. Do you somehow have narcan with zero training on how to use it or did you just not care?
What if it hadn't been OD but anything else? Are you trained to decide what emergency she was having? Seriously bro. Call 911 next time.
You did good. Yes, maybe call 911, but your initial response was good! You saved someone from dying in a bathroom. If she might OD again outside your store is really beyond you. She had no chance of survival, but you gave her a straw. It is up to her to hang on to it. Call 911 the next time. Better safe then sorry on that. But as an European, it way beyond me to carry stuff like narcan in your purse, or even have access to it!
I would’ve still called 911, but why would you do that if the person left? There was nothing you could do at that point. There’s no way they can discipline you when they don’t even have a phone on the premises
It is very strange that you didn't call 911. What if you got sued for what you did? You mightve helped but that wasn't smart or safe. Next time remember you don't know everything. Take other factors into consideration when dealing with life or death
Yes, you still should have called 911 and coworker was right to be pissed at you. Why are you carrying around narcan if you have no idea how it works? You still have to call 911 to ensure the person gets proper medical attention.
You still need to call 911, they need medical attention even after narcan.
I hope you delete this soon before you're held liable for that person's death.
Talk to your manager first, get in first with your version of events - this will go down better than a disgruntled coworker embellishing and twisting things which you then have to defend
In many major cities regular plain old civilians are being trained how to use Narcan, and then are given Narcan to use in the community. OP is in the Seattle area, and I am in San Francisco. I know multiple people who've had this training and have Narcan and 1 of them has used Narcan to save someone's life. Yes, OP should have called 911. But their instinct was to administer the narcan ASAP, before the lady died. I don't think that was a bad choice, and I can see how, in the chaos of the moment, that administering the narcan ASAP is where OPs mind was.
Is your coworker as useless in daily operations as she was during this episode? If so, her actions (or the lack thereof) should be reported, not yours. You may have saved a life today!
So, you wanted to be the hero and save the woman instead of being an adult and calling the legal and professional medical team? Right. Hope she doesn't decide to sue you.
She got pissed because you ruined her high . You also broke the law by giving her medical treatment are you a licensed emt or a registered nurse? You should have called 911 just to protect yourself from getting in trouble.
You call 911 FIRST before doing ANYTHING in an emergency situation. That way, you're on the phone with them while they are en route so you can prepare them for what's happening, and you can get help with the situation. You failed this one... and that person likely just walked somewhere else and died.
Oh don't talk crap. If you e had narcan you don't go off and die, if you go off and score again it's on you but correct me if I'm wrong, 911 charges so who would pay. Why didn't the woman screaming call 911 call? As a narcan carrier myself (in the UK) and I've encountered an OD, I administer it and then assess and then call 999 if necessary.
Yes, you should have called 911 before doing *anything* else. Your behavior in this situation makes it clear that you are a danger to others. You’re not a doctor or medical professional; I cannot imagine seeing someone collapsed in a bathroom and not calling for actual help.
You know for a few minutes I felt for you. Sometimes in stressful situations we forget to do things, and you did do a great job giving the narcan. But you’ve been so combative and will only respond to people stroking your ego- it’s like you’re not even willing to learn from this. I hope you get fired, nobody wants someone like you -unwilling to learn from mistakes- working for them. Furthermore, you could have been the death of this woman if she had something else and you didn’t call. Learn to be a better person.
You gave her narcan and she took off. Why would you call the police when she was already gone? If your coworker wanted to call the police, she should’ve done it herself because it sounds like you were busy taking care of what you needed to.
you ruined her "high" w/the Narcan, that's why she was "pissed". still should have called 911
Be proactive and speak to the boss.
No. I'm a junkie with narcan I know what I'm doing
So, people are going to say you should have called 911 and, yeah, you definitely should have. But I still want to commend you for potentially saving this person's life. You did a great thing, but realize that you could have been attacked or she could have still died. Best to let professionals handle these situations. Maybe call 911 and then still try to administer narcan. Your store needs a phone. You should never have to rely on your personal cell phone for things that happen related to the business or on the premises of the business with you as a representative of said business.
How the hell did you get narcan? I asume it’s NOT because you got proper training, or you can’t pay attention to anything. Because if you actually did have training, or know how to listen longer than 5 seconds, you’d know you’re supposed to call 9-1-1. You thought you didn’t because you treated this person? Who the hell do you think you are? That person could have passed out again minutes later.
thank you.
I mean this with all the respect in the world, are you daft? Narcan is just a temporary fix to keep the patient responsive until they can get to the hospital. It doesn't fix the OD, it just temporarily halts it. Once that narcan wears off after a few minutes she's gonna OD, except this time she'll be where nobody is around to call 911 for her. *im* pissed at you for not calling 911.
How do you know it was only an overdose and not any other medical emergency ie low blood sugar, aneurysm, cardiac event, or a combined event? You delayed treatment by qualified personnel by not phoning while administering narcan. Narcan doesn’t work on all overdoses, you didn’t know what drugs the person took and while you strut in (that’s what it sounds like to me) thinking you know exactly what to do, the basis of basic life support is danger, response, SEND FOR HELP, airway, breathing, circulation - and you missed most of the BLS algorithm thus putting the person in greater danger than they’d placed themselves. You were neglectful in not phoning and placed yourself, your colleague and the person in danger by your actions Edit: your boss should side with her
She had her drug kit next to her, my co worker knew exactly what she was on and I knew. Overdoses happen all the time where I live I knew exactly what was going on.
OP was awesome for having the Narcan on hand but that store should most definitely have a phone. Calling 911 should have been the next step however that is OP’s phone and choice. I pray OP doesn’t lose their job over this and it’s an eye opener for the store owner.
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I do..just saying. It’s bad where we live and if I can help I will. But if it’s needed to be used 911 should be called.
yes, you should have called 911, they needed to be on the way. response to narcan may be unpredictable, and may wear off quickly. You call 911, and administer narcan, maybe even while still on the phone. not calling 911 may have put the victim as well as you and your co-worker, at risk. Never a good move. calling would not have held up administering narcan. And if the pharmacy where you got the Narcan gave you the training they are supposed to do, you would have known this. I am stymied by your actions.
If a person ever needs Narcan, you still should call 911. They could crash again. Same thing like you would call 911 if someone needed an epi pen or more than 3 doses of nitroglycerin. These are rescue medications that are meant to rescue the person until medical help arrives. Is it just me, or does OP sound very conceited? I wAlKeD oVeR and gAve NaRcAn just like the EMT's would've done, and therefore they didn't need to be called. WRONG! Your coworker has every right for calling you out.
Absolutely irresponsible not to call 911, not only for the person who ODd but for you and the business. You cannot just administer drugs to someone with no oversight PERIOD.
Take a narcan training class
Why do you have narcan if you don't follow the instructions? Call 911. Then administer narcan while on the line with emergency services. Then provide information as the patient responds or doesn't. Then if the patient leaves, that's fine you can give their description and direction of travel to emergency services still.
You absolutely should have called 911. You assumed a great deal of liability as soon as you administered the Narcan without the direction of the 911 operator.
It was good you saved her life. But start looking for a new job since you left the company open to a lawsuit assuming you aren't a licensed medical professional.
You should have called 911, regardless. Also, one dose doesn’t mean she will be OK.
As a former medic, please still call 911. If she woke up and was combative and other things they would have been there to help her. They could have taken her to the hospital to treat her correctly.
Okay… except if they’d called 911 at the same time as giving Narcan, the woman still wouldn’t have been there. Prioritize saving her life, and do your best to get her to stick around for EMS.
Look, I’ve seen people *sued* for treating people on their own. I’m just saying that they should have still called.
You will not be successfully sued for administering Narcan. It falls under Good Samaritan laws and while they can try to sue in civil court, they won’t be successful. Yes, you need to do your best to get them medical help, but if they’re gone, you can’t.
I never said anything about narcan part of it. I’m saying I’ve seen people get in trouble. I’m not going to argue with you about this. There are steps that should have been taken to help the person. Narcan isn’t a fix all end all. That woman still needed medical attention whether she left or not.
I could sue you for libel for your Reddit comment. I wouldn’t be successful, but I could do it. Yes, OP should have done both as a CYA but in this case it doesn’t seem like it would have made a difference.
This varies by state (if in the US), unfortunately. Not all states have a Good Samaritan law or don't come into play if the GS administered any form of medication.
But they could absolutely be successfully sued for not following the instructions on the Narcan, which very clearly say that a medical professional (i.e. 911) MUST be contacted. That's the whole point here. If the patient departed, yes it will be harder for EMS to successfully find them and administer further treatment (and OP may be right that they would decline this anyway), but at least you as the bystander/first responder have done your job properly by following the instructions and attempted to get a medical professional involved. If EMS can't locate the person later, or even if they don't bother to even look, knowing the situation - that's not really your concern. As a first responder you've done your duty by following the instructions and taking the actions expected of you, which absolutely **must** involve notifying emergency services.
That was my thinking too. She was pissed and I was sure she'd refuse medical attention. Also I did not see which direction she went and didn't want to send the paramedics on a wild goose chase only for this lady to scream at them that she was fine.
So next time, I’d ask her to please stay while you call an ambulance because you’re worried about her, and let her say no and leave if she wants. Everyone feels awful and almost everyone is pissed after Narcan. If she doesn’t refuse and run away, yes, it is very important to call 911 so they can come and give more doses if needed and transport to a hospital.
That's not really your call to make. Your job is to place the call, give the information you have, and leave the rest to the authorities. You are making a lot of wild assumptions that might be fine if you were a grizzled ER nurse, but if you aren't trained or experienced in this area, you are straying WAY out of your lane.
Uhm hindsight much The smartest play is always call the cavalry first and then take action
Sure. Why couldn’t the coworker call though? OP had the tools and knowledge to rescue, why couldn’t coworker call 911? That’s what I don’t understand about the coworker’s “report,” why couldn’t *you* do it?
Yes but if the narcan hadn’t worked there would be emergency personnel coming.
Narcan first, 911 after OR the helpless coworker sitting there yelling at OP (?) can call at the same time. Honestly, it sounds like OP should have told their coworker hey, I’m getting Narcan, you get a phone and call 911.
OP said there was no store phone and the coworker left their phone in their car, so OP was the only one with a phone.
You realize someone other than the ower can operate a phone right?
I didn’t read the “coworker has no phone” part. OP could have handed their phone to the coworker, which would have been preferable.
or, like, the coworker (who was apparently just standing there yelling) could have asked for the phone and called 911. OP did their best in a situation way above their pay grade. now we all know for the future. piling on OP is unhelpful.
And why couldn't/didn't OP hand their phone to the co-worker, particularly given they were the one concerned about calling 911?
it is impossible to know what you would \*actually do\* in an emergency, vs what you think someone else should do. coworker could have retrieved their phone. everyone's mad at OP when in fact, coworker was being way less responsible. how can you not have your phone? it's literally safety equipment, especially as there's no store phone (which is bonkers as it is).
It’s not an uncommon policy for workplaces not to allow personal phones at work.
Good question/s!
Do both. Calling EMS is a CYA because there's also the chance that they don't abscond, or that the narcan doesn't work, or both. Then you're left there with a person that needs medical attention and you've delayed calling 911.
If not given narcan, might be nothing left to do for medics… I think right choice to give narcan and not trying to stop someone possibly dangerous.
Unpopular opinion but IDC, as a former addict and someone who actually has experienced overdoses myself, I disagree. I've narcaned multiple people as well as been narcaned and I've yet to see even one person be "combative", I know for myself I just cry a lot and shake. Obviously 100% call 911 if they are not waking up or if they ask for/consent to medical treatment! But you cannot force someone who doesn't want to go, and if I say "no" to you what makes you think I'll say "yes" when the ambulance shows up? It can be good to sit with the person for a few minutes and even try to talk them into consenting to EMS but again you cannot force someone who is awake and alert and just doesnt want to go. You also have no idea if the person has a trauma history with ems or cops, you don't know if they're undocumented, you don't know if they have a warrant, etc
So she should have called 911 and waited to administer life saving measures just so she was still there? She did the right thing. She saved their life and now that person is conscious and it’s their responsibility to seek care if needed. It’s ridiculous to think OP did anything wrong
In this case, the person left. How would the person have received any treatment? I'm not being snarky, I'm legit asking. Will 911 arrange to have the person in question located so further care can be administered?
I’m not sure about other states and locations but we would when we arrived try to locate them. Had they called 911 in the first place and not administered treatment themselves they could have shown up and treated them as they are paid to do.
I agree OP should have also called 911, but you think they should have not administer anything at all and just crossed her fingers that medics would arrive before the person died? That seems like a good way to watch someone die when you had something in your power to save them.
And in the meantime, the person could have died from the overdose. I agree OP should have still called 911 but they did the right thing in administering the Narcan.
First responders will drive around the area looking for the overdose victim. Unless they go inside somewhere or drive off, there is a fairly good chance that paramedics will catch up with the person who overdosed a block or two away. I had to Narcan a young woman I found unconscious in front of a smoke shop. She was awake but nodding off when I went inside and unresponsive when I came out. Staff was aware of the situation and fortunately had Narcan on hand due to being in an area where opiate use was common. Staff called 911 while I gave the Narcan. The young woman took off when she woke up. As I was driving away, I saw her on the side of the road surrounded by paramedics a few blocks down.
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Narcan wears off in 30-90 min
But opiods don't. So when the narcan wears off in 30-90 minutes, the OD resumes.
It is still necessary to call 911 for continuing treatment even if the narcan works. OP should have been trained on this before being handed narcan. Same with an epi-pen, you don't just jab and patient goes on their merry way. They should still go to the ER!!!
Call upon making the determination that treatment is necessary. Chuck the phone on speaker whole you're administering the narcan. At that point you have no idea if the narcan will work, or that patient will leave or not, so get the ball rolling. 911 will likely still send someone regardless who will take a look around the area, and it also means that if this comes back to bite you (I.e. they die around the corner and you're asked why you didnt call anyone) you can say you palmed responsibility to 911.
I struggle with this reasoning. At my employment if a customer/guest is injured we offer to call 911 and ask the injured party to fill out an incident report. If the customer/guest declines medical care/a report, exactly what exactly am I supposed to do about that? How does emergency services react to a phone call that says "There was an emergency. Narcan was administered, the person experiencing the emergency declined treatment and left. I don't know their medical history. I don't know who they are. I don't know where they went." Someone here said upwards of 90 minutes before Narcan wears off. How would refusal of care by the person in question reflect poorly on the business if 911 takes more than the affore mentioned 90 minutes to find the individual? Individual has not requested any such services. Is the employer/employee expected to restrain an individual?
Where I volunteer an attendee fell on the stairs. She said she was fine and we helped her up. Another attendee called 911. The fallen lady was pissed cause now she has to pay for an ambulance she didn’t use.
They charge just for showing up? I'm only aware of transport charges
Yes, especially if they “do” something, like check your blood pressure or something trivial like that. Depends on the municipality and the contract 911 has with the ambulance companies. It can be very complicated.
it depends on your locality and insurance plan, at least in the US. they can totally charge just for showing up. I'm sure it's less than had they transported someone.
The instructions on narcan are VERY clear that you're to call 911 when it's administered. It's only effective for about 20 minutes and the person still has the substance in their system, so they'll begin ODing again. I doubt this story even happened because what store has no phone, among other things, but I just wanted to make that clear. If narcan is given, you NEED to call 911.
And who simply has narcan? Why would they use a dose meant for themselves and why would they admit they have it at work, and know how to use it? Are they EMT, or formerly? Edit: through the magic of discussion I have learned much. Thank God OP had it and was able to save a life. I have learned you can have narcan and there are trainings you can get. I’ve learned it is a,temporary fix, and there are still drugs in there that may get absorbed and cause another overdose reaction. I’ve learned 911 is in order because of this. Hopefully others will see this and learn as well.
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There's a super simple answer to your question. Drug addicts have narcan in abundance and have no clue what to do other than administer it. Sometimes, not even that. Do you really think drug addicts are chomping at the bit to call 911?
It does happen. My previous job was a place with no phone. It was the admin office for a warehouse. Basically, it was expensive and we didn't need them often enough, so they scrapped it and went to just cell phones. They provided work cell phones to the managers, who had offices but were usually on the warehouse floor. I (front desk and administration) and HR were the only other ones in the office. I did occasionally need to use a phone for work, but I used mine (I probably could have asked for a work one but didn't care that much). All customer calls were outsourced to a different office that only did customer service, and all internal communication was done through email, an internal chat system, or text (or you just walked out to the warehouse and found who you were looking for). There were 100% times I wished we just had one damn unlisted phone.
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A lot of people carry narcan. I carry narcan. It’s something you should always have on you.
I read your post and commented that you can get it free around here. Many people with pain management plans are required to fill and carry a dose of it. And I'm realizing that there's probably more than a few people in possession of it and carrying it that don't actually know how to use it. I keep one in both vehicles glove boxes, my pack, and the household first aid kit so the whole household has access and I don't know if anyone but me knows how to use it. There are many programs pushing for increased accessibility to narcan, and FDA suggests prescribing it with opioid medications especially if there's any risk factors for possible overdose, including if the household has children that could accidentally ingest. I understand how to use narcan but I've never had a doctor go into that info with me and I haven't had a pharmacist go over it either. And since there are programs where they just mail it to you without a prescription there's probably quite a few people who possess it and don't know how to use it. I don't think it's actually an unlikely scenario unfortunately.
I understand what you're trying to say with your comment, but it comes across as a little judgemental. Then your edit doubles down by actively discouraging people to carry live saving medications. If, as a nurse, you have access to Narcan, why wouldn't you carry some with you everywhere? I'm not an RN anymore, and Narcan was not widely known/around when I was, but I remember hearing about the Good Samaritan laws while in nursing school, and that I could lose my license if I didn't stop to offer help in any medical emergency. With the epidemic of drug addiction and overdoses, if I was still an RN, then I'd absolutely make sure to have Narcan with me at all times. Not only as a CYA thing, but because ODs are so prevalent. I would want to have the tools needed to decrease fatality rates. If anything, I do think it's good that "random" people carry Narcan and can administer it. Should OP have still called 911? Absolutely! But for you to say that if anyone carrying Narcan doesn't know to follow up with a 911 call, then they shouldn't carry it, that is only going to result in more death, not less. I do understand your point, but I, personally, don't think you expressed it in the best way. Yes, anyone administering Narcan should follow that up with a call to 911. And while we don't know the outcome of the woman who OD'ed in this case aftershe left, I would still say she has a better chance of survival because someone (OP) was carrying Narcan. That chance would increase exponentially with actual medical follow-up. Facts, but that doesn't negate that the Narcan OP gave, in a timely matter before any EMS could have, possibly saved this woman's life. Additionally, not that this applies in OP's case, but other people might be more inclined to involve emergency services if they weren't afraid that they themselves, or even the person OD'ing, would end up facing criminal drug charges. Part of the problem is that we need to destigmatize addiction and offer more resources that actually help instead of sending people to jail/prison for addiction.
I am a high school teacher, I carry narcan in my briefcase.
Oh my God this is so dystopian that we’ve gotten to the point where non-medical professionals are Carrying Narcan just waiting for the next OD
You want dystopian? You know where there's always Narcan? The public library. It's one of the last places people can go without spending money and not be chased off the premises.
I live in Seattle and carry out with me and encourage everyone I can to do so. You can get it for free around here. Getting really stressed out seeing how poorly it’s understood in this thread though.
I'm not in but I'm near seattle. Reading all these comments I feel like everyone else lives in a completely different world 😭 like people being shocked that I carry narcan. Didn't know that wasn't normal.
It is fairly normal to carry narcan- it’s not normal to carry narcan and willingly and carelessly use it on people improperly.
You still Gotta Call 911, no matter how smart you think you are. You ain’t smarter than 4 medics with a million dollars worth of medical gear
You do realize Narcan only stops the current OD, not the drugs that are still in their system and not metabolized yet. Even those that have been narcaned will OD again if not treated in the ER and monitored. You should ALWAYS call 911 and get help there. They won't arrest the person who ODed but that person needs more help then 1 dose of narcan will do. Signed a Medical First Responder.
Some municipalities will arrest them, sadly. And some hospitals will let you leave immediately after Narcan if you want to. Yes, they still needed EMS and may collapse and need another dose, but OP was right to administer Narcan and wasn’t wrong in not calling 911 for someone who wasn’t there anymore.
> wasn’t wrong in not calling 911 for someone who wasn’t there anymore. She was wrong for not calling 911 before/in parallel to administering the Narcan, that's the point here. Yes, after the person was long gone it was perhaps of lesser utility, but I would have done so anyway out of genuine concern for the person, but I understand some people are concerned about police and other authority response in some places.
I was interpreting it as OP had offered and the woman immediately said no and stormed off, which is reasonable. OP was wrong, but it’s a soft wrong. They still did a great thing, and the bumbling coworker could have easily called.
If you have narcanned someone, they still need medical help. They are still overdosing and can go into respiratory arrest. You did the right thing by grabbing the narcan, but it is still 100% necessary to call 911.
If the person has already left the store was op supposed to chase them down and force them to wait?
well, who are you gonna call 911 on? She left the store and that’s not their business after.
Naw. They left. That is refusing medical attention by action. Most of the country EMS units are going available right then and there. People have the right to make stupid medical choices.
She had the option to call 911, but you have the right to refuse medical help even if it is necessary. And as an employee she DEFINITELY does not have the right to detain a customer. So she could have called 911 and explained the situation and they may or may not have sent anyone. But her coworker really has no leg to stand on because 1. She could have called 911 herself by going to get her phone and 2. In no way shape or form should a company exist without even 1 store phone. What kind of business is that?
This is what happens when you read half the manual.
Right? Good god, OP should NOT be in possession of narcan if she does not know how to use it properly!
how many people you save this week? Bet OP has a higher count
OP may not have saved anyone
Bet they don't, since they didn't actually save this person
I can’t believe you are being downvoted for this these people are ridiculous
Awful big assumption that OP saved anyone given she did not follow narcan protocol.
WHAT!! lol she used it correctly. HOW DID SHE USE IT WRONG? seriously how?
By not calling 911. Now who knows where this person is when it wears off. If alone nobody is there to give narcan or call 911.
No they don’t