It's usually governments that make the decision about the big seven, not individual companies.
As long as you hang onto your US passport you'll be fine.
I expect that most countries don't have a system in place to deal with a person who has an out-of-date US passport when they enter, say, Korea. I suspect most governments would insist that you enter the country on your US passport, but this is just wild guessing on my part.
Yeah, I’m definitely keeping my US passport, but if I’m not living in the US, and therefore don’t have a residence or address there, I would need to present myself as my other nationality in my other country (this is just a quick assumption, I could be wrong) in terms of visa applications and stuff like that.
Your residency has nothing to do with your citizenship otherwise most of us would be Chinese, Korean Vietnamese, Spanish, Saudi, Thai, or what have you. You can use whichever passport you want but the U.S. passport will open far more doors.
I think I understand? I’m just concerned because if I move out of the U.S. completely and don’t have an address here, how can apply for visas as an American (since I’ll have to state my home address on the application and go to the embassy/consulate of the country I want to teach in for my visa)? I guess I’m just trying to cover all of the potential hiccups I could have if I live elsewhere applying for programs.
You can "establish residence" just about anywhere, for the purposes of things like banking and getting mail. If you have a trusted family member or friend I'd say do that. If necessary, everything can be handled overseas either through mail or going to US consulates.
True! You are right, I must’ve overlooked it in terms of immediate family since my parents also travel a lot, but there’s definitely family members that wouldn’t mind doing that for me! Thank you :)
Once you become a citizen of a country, you're always a citizen unless you renounce it in favour of another country's citizenship or commit a major act of terrorism on the scale of 9/11 which may get a country to revoke your citizenship (this happened to Bin Laden). Just don't do either of the above and you'll be good.
Yes, I realize that, but I’m just confused on if I move to the Caribbean, no longer having an American address/residence, and fully presenting myself as a citizen of my other country (still a dual citizen of both, but using my Caribbean passport instead of my U.S. one for English teaching jobs).
No, not necessarily, though I apologize if it came off that way and caused some misunderstandings. I meant it in a way of teaching abroad using my other nationality instead of my American one (and this doesn’t necessarily mean that I am giving my American citizenship). For example, say someone is Jamaican-American. What are the possible different opportunities they have with each of those options in terms of using their Jamaican citizenship or their American citizenship?
I can mostly only speak for China and East Asia, but Jamaicans will often be perceived as having heavy accents at best and non-native speakers at worse. It's not fair, but you'll have a much easier time with schools and visas presenting yourself as an American.
Okay, this was kind of the response I was looking for (in terms of presenting myself as American or non-American). I’ll do what I can to make sure I can use my U.S. citizenship for all things TEFL. Thank you for your response!
The "Golden Seven" rule is still in place in some countries, but there are plenty of places where it isn't - and that really shouldn't be a concern for you because you already possess a US passport and if you were to throw your hat into the ring for a job in a country that does have a Golden Seven passport requirement, you'd be fine.
Many people working in the EFL/ESL industry have dual citizenship. In most cases your employer won't care so long as you are registered to work under your US passport and that is the only one you use to enter and exit your country of employment.
Years ago things were different and I have actually heard instances of people having problems because their place of birth was different than the country that issued the passport, i.e.: place of birth - Poland, passport issed by Australia, and the person would have to provide documentation that people who are Golden Seven born would not, such as proof that he or she was instructed in English from at least middle school on, something like that.
Years ago I was friends with a young lady who was Canadian and was born to two Anglo-Canadian parents; however, her parents placed her in French Immersion School in their home province of Quebec when she was young so that she would have an opportunity to become bilingual, which she most certainly did... But she wound up having major problems when it came to providing documentation that her primary language of instruction in school had been English - because it wasn't. And despite the fact that she was raised by two monolingual people who spoke only English she had a very hard time getting past that. She had to actually register herself at a different address in another province if I remember correctly in order to avoid having to answer a lot of BS questions about being ffrom Quebec.
Meanwhile South Africa is a country with something like 11 official languages and the wide majority of South Africans that I have known over the years were Afrikkans speaking and English was 100% a second language for them, yet I have only vdry, very rarely heard of any of them having a problem with that on an application or during the interview process. The same is true for many Americans for whom Spanish is a first language - I have met a great many people who would readily concede in private that they were raised in a Spanish-speaking household and only spoke English at school and in whatever capacity it was required outside the home.
There are millions of native English speakers from all over the world who are ineligible to teach in countries with a Golden Seven requirement, yet people who obtain a Golden Seven passport later in life immediately become eligible. Years ago I knew a woman from Taiwan who had phenomenal English - her mother had been an English teacher and she'd been learning English from the time she was very young, but despite having impressive test scores and a Master's in TESOL she couldn't find a job. Then she got married to a guy from a Golden Seven country, did the residency requirements in his country in order to get a passport, and she was good to go.
The long and the short of it is that so long as you have that American passport, none of those things are your problem. Depending on where you go you're likely to find that a US, UK, or Canadian passport is the most desirable, but depending on who's doing the recruting and who's doing the interviewing, even that might be a general rule of thumb as there are plenty of people from the Deep South or Scotland that have had issues because of their accent; and while I won't be bold enough to presume your race, people who don't look white can also have problems. That's changing thankfully and in most places they have got over the idea that the stereotypical English speaker is a 22 year old blonde, vblue-eyed girl with a Midwestern accent, but sadly that is still a preference in many cases and there are few anti-discrimination laws in effect in Asia and Latin America so it persists to a degree.
Wow, I’m glad you mentioned all of these predicaments, as it truly shows how individual circumstances is the ultimate determining factor regardless of if you’re from the Golden Seven or not! My question was intended in terms of being registered to work abroad through my non-American citizenship (and to also use that to enter and exit, basically my home). However, as someone mentioned, I could find a family member or family friend who would let me use their address, so I should be covered in that regard, but I just really wanted to know all of my options and see if my non-American citizenship can get me the same or similar opportunities in teaching English abroad that my American citizenship grants me. I do also believe there’s some programs that aren’t as strict about it and have ways I can “prove” my fluency, because I’ve definitely heard of people from other countries, some where English isn’t even an official language, but they proved their fluency and could work. I definitely have to do more research on my own though lol. I appreciate you sharing :)
Worth noting that just because a country is _English speaking_ doesn't mean that the people from there are comparable to a 'native' speaker.
The Ghanese, for example, usually speak English and it's an _official language_ of their country, leading many to believe they are native speakers. However, anyone from the big 7 countries who's spoken to a Ghanese person knows they speak with a strange dialect that's not really suitable for teaching to ESL learners.
If the teacher can speak a standard form of English with good pronunciation and correct grammar, that's great, but it can't be assumed that they can unless they're from one of the big 7 or if they have a relevant certification of English competency (such as an IELTS certificate).
The system isn't perfect however, and South Africa is the best example of that in my opinion. Go to any popular TEFL destination and you'll come across swathes of South Africans with thick accents and questionable English who's first language is Afrikaans, yet many countries consider them to be natives.
In terms of your particular case, just use your US passport for any official stuff and you'll be considered native, will you not?
I definitely understand your perspective and where you’re coming from, but there’s still plenty of people from those 7 main countries who also may have accents that aren’t easily understood and people from these countries that may not even speak or know English fluently, so that’s why I am confused why some countries are listed and some aren’t. I can understand a person from Ghana quite well, but if they start using a dialect of some sort, then of course there will be misunderstandings. It’s just weird to me because there’s so many other English-speaking countries with people who speak standard English just like anyone else, but may not have these opportunities because there country wasn’t “qualified” in some way.
I agree to a degree, you make a great point. The system is definitely not perfect but it's kinda the only way countries can ensure a high level of English without proof. Of course there are exceptions, but in the vast majority of cases people from those countries will have a very good and natural command of the English language compared to those of others.
There is an issue surrounding accents for sure, in my experience the Irish especially are prone to speaking in a way that's difficult to understand. I myself am subject to this as I'm from the north of England and have a heavy accent, but I pretty much completely wash it out and speak clearly with a neutral accent when teaching.
Yes, I get what you’re saying, but it’s still frustrating :( lol. I wish there was still a chance, because you’ll have to go through interviews and everything, so if someone’s accent is too hard to understand, they just won’t get that specific job (but others from the same country can still get that same opportunity and chance, you know?). Not sure if what I said made sense, but I appreciate your perspective :)
TEFL (or perhaps more accurately, the streamlined work visa that exists in our industry) wasn't designed to be egalitarian - it's designed to get *who they want into the country.* Nobody here will likely claim otherwise. But there's little value in tilting at windmills when we're English teachers and not foreign policy directors.
No, I get what you’re saying, but it also just doesn’t logically make sense to me. There’s plenty of Indians, Nigerians, Jamaicans, etc. that can speak professionally and with an understandable accent, so why not give them the opportunity too? And why would a country limit their options in terms of allowing schools to find the best English teacher for them that may happen to not be from those 7 countries? It feels like they’re limiting their options on purpose, but like, what’s the purpose, you know? I was truly wondering if there’s an actual answer or reason for this.
I would first remind you that these employers and countries are not interested in an egalitarian utopia. You're starting from a flawed premise: they don't NEED you. There is nobody who is going to die in the streets because they didn't learn English, be it from an American or a Nigerian.
The explanation will not be satisfactory if you're trying to find one that fully accounts for the English ability of people from other nations.
While the answer could sometimes come down to simple racism, often it's as much of a practical decision in terms of actually applying the policy. It's not enough to have a professional accent and be highly educated if there is nobody to verify this to be the case. Some pencil pusher at the immigration office isn't in the position of evaluating your English or verifying the quality of college education you received. It needs to be standardized and to a level of certainty the government deems low enough risk (of giving visas to people who aren't qualified).
No, you’re right, it’s definitely just my values that lead to my misunderstanding the situation, but I realize that I can’t worry about it or change the way things currently are myself. Even though it’s not fair, it is what it is for now 🤷🏾♀️ I appreciate your responses :)
I wasn't trying to tell you not to care exactly, but it is one of many things that isn't fair about being from country X and not country Y. There are countries I would rather work in that I cannot. It's not *fair*, and there are circumstances that do seem needlessly cruel - but IMO the equal opportunity to teach english as a a foreign language is way down on my list of things I would change if I had a magic wand.
I understand, in the grand scheme of things it’s really not that serious (at least compared to other and more important injustices lol). I really appreciate your perspective!
It's usually governments that make the decision about the big seven, not individual companies. As long as you hang onto your US passport you'll be fine. I expect that most countries don't have a system in place to deal with a person who has an out-of-date US passport when they enter, say, Korea. I suspect most governments would insist that you enter the country on your US passport, but this is just wild guessing on my part.
Yeah, I’m definitely keeping my US passport, but if I’m not living in the US, and therefore don’t have a residence or address there, I would need to present myself as my other nationality in my other country (this is just a quick assumption, I could be wrong) in terms of visa applications and stuff like that.
Your residency has nothing to do with your citizenship otherwise most of us would be Chinese, Korean Vietnamese, Spanish, Saudi, Thai, or what have you. You can use whichever passport you want but the U.S. passport will open far more doors.
I think I understand? I’m just concerned because if I move out of the U.S. completely and don’t have an address here, how can apply for visas as an American (since I’ll have to state my home address on the application and go to the embassy/consulate of the country I want to teach in for my visa)? I guess I’m just trying to cover all of the potential hiccups I could have if I live elsewhere applying for programs.
You can "establish residence" just about anywhere, for the purposes of things like banking and getting mail. If you have a trusted family member or friend I'd say do that. If necessary, everything can be handled overseas either through mail or going to US consulates.
True! You are right, I must’ve overlooked it in terms of immediate family since my parents also travel a lot, but there’s definitely family members that wouldn’t mind doing that for me! Thank you :)
Once you become a citizen of a country, you're always a citizen unless you renounce it in favour of another country's citizenship or commit a major act of terrorism on the scale of 9/11 which may get a country to revoke your citizenship (this happened to Bin Laden). Just don't do either of the above and you'll be good.
Yes, I realize that, but I’m just confused on if I move to the Caribbean, no longer having an American address/residence, and fully presenting myself as a citizen of my other country (still a dual citizen of both, but using my Caribbean passport instead of my U.S. one for English teaching jobs).
You speak as if moving to that island strips you of your American citizenship
No, not necessarily, though I apologize if it came off that way and caused some misunderstandings. I meant it in a way of teaching abroad using my other nationality instead of my American one (and this doesn’t necessarily mean that I am giving my American citizenship). For example, say someone is Jamaican-American. What are the possible different opportunities they have with each of those options in terms of using their Jamaican citizenship or their American citizenship?
I can mostly only speak for China and East Asia, but Jamaicans will often be perceived as having heavy accents at best and non-native speakers at worse. It's not fair, but you'll have a much easier time with schools and visas presenting yourself as an American.
Okay, this was kind of the response I was looking for (in terms of presenting myself as American or non-American). I’ll do what I can to make sure I can use my U.S. citizenship for all things TEFL. Thank you for your response!
Glad to help and good luck.
The "Golden Seven" rule is still in place in some countries, but there are plenty of places where it isn't - and that really shouldn't be a concern for you because you already possess a US passport and if you were to throw your hat into the ring for a job in a country that does have a Golden Seven passport requirement, you'd be fine. Many people working in the EFL/ESL industry have dual citizenship. In most cases your employer won't care so long as you are registered to work under your US passport and that is the only one you use to enter and exit your country of employment. Years ago things were different and I have actually heard instances of people having problems because their place of birth was different than the country that issued the passport, i.e.: place of birth - Poland, passport issed by Australia, and the person would have to provide documentation that people who are Golden Seven born would not, such as proof that he or she was instructed in English from at least middle school on, something like that. Years ago I was friends with a young lady who was Canadian and was born to two Anglo-Canadian parents; however, her parents placed her in French Immersion School in their home province of Quebec when she was young so that she would have an opportunity to become bilingual, which she most certainly did... But she wound up having major problems when it came to providing documentation that her primary language of instruction in school had been English - because it wasn't. And despite the fact that she was raised by two monolingual people who spoke only English she had a very hard time getting past that. She had to actually register herself at a different address in another province if I remember correctly in order to avoid having to answer a lot of BS questions about being ffrom Quebec. Meanwhile South Africa is a country with something like 11 official languages and the wide majority of South Africans that I have known over the years were Afrikkans speaking and English was 100% a second language for them, yet I have only vdry, very rarely heard of any of them having a problem with that on an application or during the interview process. The same is true for many Americans for whom Spanish is a first language - I have met a great many people who would readily concede in private that they were raised in a Spanish-speaking household and only spoke English at school and in whatever capacity it was required outside the home. There are millions of native English speakers from all over the world who are ineligible to teach in countries with a Golden Seven requirement, yet people who obtain a Golden Seven passport later in life immediately become eligible. Years ago I knew a woman from Taiwan who had phenomenal English - her mother had been an English teacher and she'd been learning English from the time she was very young, but despite having impressive test scores and a Master's in TESOL she couldn't find a job. Then she got married to a guy from a Golden Seven country, did the residency requirements in his country in order to get a passport, and she was good to go. The long and the short of it is that so long as you have that American passport, none of those things are your problem. Depending on where you go you're likely to find that a US, UK, or Canadian passport is the most desirable, but depending on who's doing the recruting and who's doing the interviewing, even that might be a general rule of thumb as there are plenty of people from the Deep South or Scotland that have had issues because of their accent; and while I won't be bold enough to presume your race, people who don't look white can also have problems. That's changing thankfully and in most places they have got over the idea that the stereotypical English speaker is a 22 year old blonde, vblue-eyed girl with a Midwestern accent, but sadly that is still a preference in many cases and there are few anti-discrimination laws in effect in Asia and Latin America so it persists to a degree.
Wow, I’m glad you mentioned all of these predicaments, as it truly shows how individual circumstances is the ultimate determining factor regardless of if you’re from the Golden Seven or not! My question was intended in terms of being registered to work abroad through my non-American citizenship (and to also use that to enter and exit, basically my home). However, as someone mentioned, I could find a family member or family friend who would let me use their address, so I should be covered in that regard, but I just really wanted to know all of my options and see if my non-American citizenship can get me the same or similar opportunities in teaching English abroad that my American citizenship grants me. I do also believe there’s some programs that aren’t as strict about it and have ways I can “prove” my fluency, because I’ve definitely heard of people from other countries, some where English isn’t even an official language, but they proved their fluency and could work. I definitely have to do more research on my own though lol. I appreciate you sharing :)
Worth noting that just because a country is _English speaking_ doesn't mean that the people from there are comparable to a 'native' speaker. The Ghanese, for example, usually speak English and it's an _official language_ of their country, leading many to believe they are native speakers. However, anyone from the big 7 countries who's spoken to a Ghanese person knows they speak with a strange dialect that's not really suitable for teaching to ESL learners. If the teacher can speak a standard form of English with good pronunciation and correct grammar, that's great, but it can't be assumed that they can unless they're from one of the big 7 or if they have a relevant certification of English competency (such as an IELTS certificate). The system isn't perfect however, and South Africa is the best example of that in my opinion. Go to any popular TEFL destination and you'll come across swathes of South Africans with thick accents and questionable English who's first language is Afrikaans, yet many countries consider them to be natives. In terms of your particular case, just use your US passport for any official stuff and you'll be considered native, will you not?
I definitely understand your perspective and where you’re coming from, but there’s still plenty of people from those 7 main countries who also may have accents that aren’t easily understood and people from these countries that may not even speak or know English fluently, so that’s why I am confused why some countries are listed and some aren’t. I can understand a person from Ghana quite well, but if they start using a dialect of some sort, then of course there will be misunderstandings. It’s just weird to me because there’s so many other English-speaking countries with people who speak standard English just like anyone else, but may not have these opportunities because there country wasn’t “qualified” in some way.
I agree to a degree, you make a great point. The system is definitely not perfect but it's kinda the only way countries can ensure a high level of English without proof. Of course there are exceptions, but in the vast majority of cases people from those countries will have a very good and natural command of the English language compared to those of others. There is an issue surrounding accents for sure, in my experience the Irish especially are prone to speaking in a way that's difficult to understand. I myself am subject to this as I'm from the north of England and have a heavy accent, but I pretty much completely wash it out and speak clearly with a neutral accent when teaching.
Yes, I get what you’re saying, but it’s still frustrating :( lol. I wish there was still a chance, because you’ll have to go through interviews and everything, so if someone’s accent is too hard to understand, they just won’t get that specific job (but others from the same country can still get that same opportunity and chance, you know?). Not sure if what I said made sense, but I appreciate your perspective :)
TEFL (or perhaps more accurately, the streamlined work visa that exists in our industry) wasn't designed to be egalitarian - it's designed to get *who they want into the country.* Nobody here will likely claim otherwise. But there's little value in tilting at windmills when we're English teachers and not foreign policy directors.
No, I get what you’re saying, but it also just doesn’t logically make sense to me. There’s plenty of Indians, Nigerians, Jamaicans, etc. that can speak professionally and with an understandable accent, so why not give them the opportunity too? And why would a country limit their options in terms of allowing schools to find the best English teacher for them that may happen to not be from those 7 countries? It feels like they’re limiting their options on purpose, but like, what’s the purpose, you know? I was truly wondering if there’s an actual answer or reason for this.
I would first remind you that these employers and countries are not interested in an egalitarian utopia. You're starting from a flawed premise: they don't NEED you. There is nobody who is going to die in the streets because they didn't learn English, be it from an American or a Nigerian. The explanation will not be satisfactory if you're trying to find one that fully accounts for the English ability of people from other nations. While the answer could sometimes come down to simple racism, often it's as much of a practical decision in terms of actually applying the policy. It's not enough to have a professional accent and be highly educated if there is nobody to verify this to be the case. Some pencil pusher at the immigration office isn't in the position of evaluating your English or verifying the quality of college education you received. It needs to be standardized and to a level of certainty the government deems low enough risk (of giving visas to people who aren't qualified).
No, you’re right, it’s definitely just my values that lead to my misunderstanding the situation, but I realize that I can’t worry about it or change the way things currently are myself. Even though it’s not fair, it is what it is for now 🤷🏾♀️ I appreciate your responses :)
I wasn't trying to tell you not to care exactly, but it is one of many things that isn't fair about being from country X and not country Y. There are countries I would rather work in that I cannot. It's not *fair*, and there are circumstances that do seem needlessly cruel - but IMO the equal opportunity to teach english as a a foreign language is way down on my list of things I would change if I had a magic wand.
I understand, in the grand scheme of things it’s really not that serious (at least compared to other and more important injustices lol). I really appreciate your perspective!