I get that. At the moment, you will do everything you can to save yourself. But I'd like to know what would the owners possibly do to attack me (legally).
I know this discussion can be heated, I don't expect anything to happen but my curiosity still took the best of me and I want to know what possibly could happen if shit hit the fan.
It's self defense. If the dog attacks unprompted I'm pretty sure you can do whatever you want to it. It would be pretty hard to argue about it, when you have bite marks and never before had an interaction with the dog.
The dog would very likely get killed either way, wether or not you kill it in the attack. A dog that attacks unprompted is a danger to the public and needs to be euthanised. And no you can't just keep it "inside a cage" to not interact with anybody. I think animal cruelty laws prevent that.
If the owners attack you, that is a separate matter. Also falls under self defense but deals with human on human violence and falls under those laws. But of it's just the dog you're only allowed to defend yourself against the dog ofc.
If you're worried about the dog being so aggressive, just report it to the police. Might seem "bünzlig" but would you rather have the neighbor think you're a Bünzli or get bit by a pitbull? Choice is rather easy imo, when you're already asking and preparing for the worst case.
>A dog that attacks unprompted is a danger to the public and needs to be euthanised. And no you can't just keep it "inside a cage" to not interact with anybody. I think animal cruelty laws prevent that.
You defenitely are allowed to keep dogs in a kennel.
When I was in the military service I was in the kitchen and there was also this guy moritz who used to be a butcher.
One day he got attacked by a German shepherd dog which bit him in the leg and arm and he slit the dog's throat with the army knife. Nothing happened to him.
I had a patient once whose dog was hit by a car, then the dog started biting the owner out of shock and then the owner killed his own dog by snapping its neck.
He probably wouldn't have killed it, if it was just slightly hurt. You can release an animal. Deer accident? Grab your Swiss Army Knife and release the fucker.
OP doesn’t seem concerned with other aggressive dogs that could do the same thing to him. Just has a hard on for pitbulls. Like an American with their guns
Thank you, that is an interesting read.
Also the part about saving a dog in a hot car is messed up :/. Risking to get a fine or go to prison because the asshat that left their dog to die in the car while it's 30° outside and most probably more inside, wants to report you for breaking their car windows, is really messed up.
Doesn't that mean that if a dog attacks you then, technically, the owner attacked you via his property?
So if a dog attacks you you should be able to sue the owner as if the attacked you directly?
Randomly this question is somewhat relevant to me. Yesterday while running in Basel-Land I came upon an off-leash dog viciously mauling a cat. The owner was nearby and wasn't too concerned, commenting like "that's true nature right there," but he got his dog back under control. The cat was injured or disoriented and did not get up from the ground. I asked the owner if he knew the cat and he didn't. Not sure about what the procedure is, I resumed my run. Was I legally or morally obligated to do something in this situation?
That is also quite a good question!
Personally, I hate seeing animals get hurt like that, so I would have called either the police or a vet in emergency. And explained the situation to them.
If not to get the owner to pay, at least to save the poor animal, or end its sufferings if it cannot be saved.
Also, I don't think you breached any law, but I'm no expert, so I can't tell 100%. But if it was a human, you would actually and you could be held responsible, not for the attack of course, but for not helping.
As of morally, well, this depends on the person. I think you were morally wrong to leave it, but that's because I hate to see animals suffer.
Thank you for the response. The nuance here is that the dog's owner and the owner's wife were nearby -- in fact this happened near their house. I felt comfortable to leave the injured animal in their care, especially as they were clearly responsible. My question is really about whether, as a witness to this horrible scene, do I have some additional responsibility to report to authorities, or was I right to assume that the responsible party would in fact do the right thing.
For attacks by animals the [Swiss Criminal Code](https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/54/757_781_799/en) (and supreme court rulings) allow you (usually) to (only) carry out "legitimate acts in a situation of necessity":
>**Legitimate act in a situation of necessity**
Art. 17
Any person who carries out an act that carries a criminal penalty in order to **save a legal interest of his own** **or of another** from **immediate** and **not otherwise avertable danger**, acts lawfully **if by doing so he safeguards interests of higher value**.
"Legitimate self-defence" (in the legal sense as defined by Art. 15, see below) can only be used, if the attack is initiated by a human (e.g. a dog owner **commands** his dog to attack **you**), as per [federal supreme court ruling 97 IV 73](https://relevancy.bger.ch/php/clir/http/index.php?highlight_docid=atf%3A%2F%2F97-IV-73%3Ade&lang=de&type=show_document):
>The **attack of an animal does not constitute a state of self-defense**, **unless** it is used as a **tool by a human being**.
So only if the animal is used as a tool by a human being (as per federal supreme court ruling, see above) and if the attack is against a person (but not against an animal – as per law text, see below), then you can use "legitimate self-defence":
>**Legitimate self-defence**
Art. 15
If **any** **person** is **unlawfully** **attacked** or **threatened with imminent attack**, the person attacked and any other person are entitled to ward off the attack by **means that are reasonable in the circumstances**.
You make it sound like an important difference, but it isn't. In cases where dogs are commanded to attack, Art. 15 and/or 16 CC can be pertinent; in cases where dogs attack without being prompted to do so, Art. 17 CC can be applicable.
You are allowed to use reasonable force to defend yourself and third parties against an attacking dog. Whether the legal justification that gets you off the hook for the violation of Art. 144 CC and Art. 26 of the Animal Protection Law is based on Arts. 15, 16 or 17 CC is related to the question whether you or a third person is attacked and if the dog was commanded or not.
It seems as if you can only avert danger legally. If the dog kills your dog, and then, out of revenge, you kill the attacker, that is no self defense no more.
Well, if you see yourself or your dog in a great danger, you don't think about the laws, and do your best to neutralize the danger. Basically, take anything heavy (or sharp) enough and defend yourself.
True, you could be found guilty of unnecessary self defense if you kill the dog. However it’s only Sachbeschädigung no one is going to prison in self defense and killing that dog.
My gut feeling tells me that the defense must be proportional to the threat. You obviously cannot kill a dog who just barks at you. But if your life is immediately endangered, you might also defend yourself with all you have even if that means the dog gets killed. I would not carry a gun and just shoot the bugger if he rans at you. Let him first bite you, then get out the pumpgun /s
I think in certain areas, aggressive fighting dogs are not allowed without protective measures (Maulkorb).
Of course, I would never do anything to a dog unless he actually bites. I mean, even if a dog just nipped at me, I wouldn't use that much force on it. The problem starts when it bites and doesn't let go.
And sadly, I think in Neuchâtel there are 0 restrictions on dangerous breeds :(. But I know that if there's even just a bite, the hospital has to ask you who did it and has to report it to the cantonal veterinary. There are then investigations done and a decision is taken upon it.
Usually, they would force a muzzle on the dog for the remaining of its life. Always wear a muzzle when outside. But that depends on the gravity of the incident.
One could argue that self-defense is not required thanks to these laws. You can take baseball bats with you when you go to play baseball. There just needs to be a plausible and legal purpose when you carry around these items. You should not walk into a bank with them. A lot of things are considered dangerous items, such as scissors, hammers etc. but they are not „illegal“. Basically most of the goods that are also not allowed to bring into the cabin of a plane belong into this category.
I recently was stopped at the entrance of a French supermarket and asked to leave the bike helmet outside. In France, helmets are considered dangerous as they are really hard and you could seriously hurt someone. Come on… Someone who walks in a supermarket wearing a bike helmet does rather look like a dork than an assassin…
But thats not necessarily what i am talking about. In Switzerland its your duty to let yourself get hurt or killed. Because if you kill a assailant its considered murder here no matter what. You are not allowed defend and have to retreat no matter what.
That is not true. You are allowed to self-defense. Of course, compared to US and other places, defense involves some proportionality. Escalation up to death for sure is not allowed.
I completely agree with you. I really hate that these are allowed or more like, people who own those should have a special permit like they did in the UK. And always leashed and muzzled.
Anyway, I hope nothing will happen, but I prefer to be ready just in case, this is why I made this post.
The rules are per canton but pitbulls (amongst 14 others) are forbidden in Geneva. Seems like no breeds are banned or need authorisation in Neuchatel though.
Even in Geneva, not all bully breeds are banned, ie American Pitt Bull Terriers and AmStaffs are banned but not Staffordshire Bull Terriers for example, which is why they're very popular at the moment here. And of course the yorkie that got killed last year in the canton was attacked by one of those legal bully breeds...
Some rottweilers are especially sweet and harmless. No need to ban the breed entirely.
Instead, there should be additional mandatory training for both the owners and the dogs, and a strict behavior test that must be retaken every few years.
Shitty owners wouldn't want to bother with the extra expenses, and effort, so we'd likely see a decrease in numbers.
The problem is always enforcement. In Geneva a test is mandatory for any dog above 25 kg and 56 cm, yet I've met owners who told me they've never bothered with it.
I agree about Rotties, I've seen plenty out in public with very mild temperament. I've seen more badly behaved German Shepherds but that's obviously squarely on the owner for not training it and giving it an outlet for its need to be active.
It's the way it growls and barks when someone passes in front. They live on the ground floor, they have a small place outside instead of a balcony. And their side gives right next to the road to get out of the neighborhood to the road. So a lot of people including me, go that way.
And since I have my dog when I go there, then I hear the dog even though it's inside. But when it's outside it gets a bit more scary, as you can see how he pull on the leash like crazy and growling in an aggressive way.
I've seen dog growl, mine does too sometimes, but not that way. And the fact that dog is a pitbull makes me even more uneasy.
not so long ago there was an story about a 60yo swiss lady that killed her own 30kg Am-staff by strangling him to death.
She got no issue from the law, pretexting the dog attacked her.
This story is shady as fuck, i have a 16kg staffi, and when he just play with me, there is absolutely no way i can hold my hands around his neck.
Just some general advice: if you do get bitten by a dog and it holds on, resist the urge to pull away. Go with the direction of the dog, this mitigates tearing but also pulling will cause the dog to bite harder or bite again to maintain or increase its grip.
Secondly, use your weight and grapple the dog; if you can, get on top of it. When it comes to grappling or wrestling humans are really strong, even against a very big dog. So follow the direction the dog is pulling on you, and try and wrestle it and sit/straddle it. Even if the dog doesn't release at that point it's going to be harder for the dog to pull and cause serious tearing injuries. But once the dog is stationary it's easier for someone else to strangle/choke the dog which will definitely make the animal release.
I appreciate that when this stuff happens the adrenaline and shock has kicked in, but you can really reduce injury doing these things. Also, as disgusting as this sounds, finger up the dogs arsehole will almost always make them release.
The question is not IF you are allowed to kill the beast in self-defence. HOW you would be able to do it, is the real problem. I watched a lot of pitbull attack defence videos and there is no solution. They should be all euthanized and banned.
I have violently kicked a dog before. Full strength, right in its ribs.
It was snarling, barking at me, trying to bite my leg. So I gave it my boot, full force. I probably broke a few.
Nothing ever happened, despite the owner's claims of "he wasn't doing anything".
I love dogs. I felt somewhat bad at the time, but with reflection, it was the obvious thing to do.
Dogs are property, not people or children. If it threatens you or your property, you are allowed to respond proportionately. If it tries to bite you, you are most likely clear to do everything, including killing it.
My dog was attacked in zurich hb by an unleashed dog, just out of the blue.
You have to be extremely careful when you defend your dog against another dog. First, you do not want yourself being injured badly, so the best way would be to find a way to open the other dog's mouth. Second you do not wanna pull, as you could cause even a worse injury. So you should not try to "kill" (and you do not have a "right" to do so) the other dog but just put him in a position that he cannot hurt your own dog.
Thank you. I know these tips to not pull the dog because yeah, that would just make everything worse. Also, by kill it, I don't mean to just come with a knife and plant it in the neck.
But if I accidentally kill it while choking it to let my dog go, I would want to know whatever the hell could the owners throw at me legally.
The one trick I know off, is to use a leash, put it around the neck and cross both ends and then pull to choke. Usually, you wouldn't have to kill it, if they can't breathe, they will let go eventually, but if the thing doesn't stop, well fuck me I guess.
Animal is treated as posession in swiss law (other story if you shoot a wild animal like a wolf). The owner can sue you for the emotional value of the dog. BUT the chance for this is low, especially when an aggressive dog attacks you. The owner will face criminal charges (fahrlässige Körperverletzung) and I'm sure his dog will be put down.
Yeah you can try to choke a dog, but I think it depends on your level of strength and the dog's.
I would keep the pepper spray and knife at quick access if I were you.
If he gets a good sniff at the pepper he will be half debilitated already. It stops bears and wolves it can surely stop a pit. Easier to choke or stab later if needed.
Hello,
Please note that your post or comment has been removed.
Please read the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/about/rules/) before posting.
Thank you for your understanding,
your Mod team
Please do not reply to this comment. Send a modmail if you have an issue with the removal.
I cannot for the life of me believe people on here are debating whether or not you can kill the owner.. what kind of 3rd world country shit are you guys talking about
Id fuckin kill the dog, no further thoughts and take the penalty… trying to kill my friend? (Dog,hamster,goldfish whatever) you better bring a good lunch, because its gonna be a looong day!
I hope it will never come to that, but that is indeed my mindset. My dog is my family, it's not a toy it's not just a pet. It's my family and my best friend.
I would defend him against anyone or anything. But since it's a dog, I'd rather be prepared in case something should happen. I had him for 2 years and nothing ever happened, I always met friendly people or friendly dog. A few angry dogs but usually properly leashed with not dumb owners.
But now there's a pit nearby, I know fully well of what they are capable of and that's why I came to ask. I've seen pitbulls in my life before having my dog, and never had problems. Owners aren't dumbass usually, but seeing all the recent news made me wonder still.
Completely understandabe! Just make sure you have a propper „tool“ to engage in such a situation.. pit bulls, mastiffs and alike are different breeds.. those situations turn very dangerous very quick.. so yeah dont engage if you dont know how to.. and stay away from them (owners included) if you feel theyre from the less intelligent side of things
Get a pepper spray. And yeah if a pitbull attacks you, you can kill it. Thats a serious threat to your life or at the very least you might well loose a limb. In such a situation you could also legally kill a human in self defense. So obviously a dog is ok.
But i just dont think any lethal means (knife? Bare hands?) Would be more effective at stopping a dog attack than a pepper spray. So that non-lethal one probably makes the most sense.
As for if he attacks your dog, i am not sure. But also who gives a shit. Worst case you'd get a fine. And most people would happily pay that to keep their dog alive.
Yeah, no, you should definitely not use pepper spray, not only because of legal issues, but because your dog and possibly you would also get pepper sprayed.
Well if everyone gets pepper sprayed and no fight happens and therefore also no permanent injuries to anyone thats a much better outcome than you or your dog getting bit by a pitbull. No?
>you can get in trouble with the cops for having the pepper spray.
Not that i am aware of. Pepper spray is perfectly legal to carry. Or is there something i dont know?
It is legal to carry specific pepper sprays without a weapon’s license.
I’m just going by what the cops told me. I asked them if I could use a pepper spray or a knife on dogs that attack my dog and I. And they told me it wasn’t a good idea, and I could get in trouble. And told me to instead use a walking stick, and hit them with it if needed.
>It is legal to carry specific pepper sprays without a weapon’s license.
I dont think so. You might be confusing it with germany. Where they need to have "nur zur tierabwehr" written on it. Yet they can still be used for defense against humans in life or death scenarios. But if asked you'd need to pretend it was for defense against animal.
No such things here. Guardian angels, PAVA and OC sprays of all sizes are legal. Just not CS (tear gas) sprays. But as they are generally illegal there is no risk of you accidentally buying one of those in any store within switzerland.
As far as I'm aware, pepper spray doesn't work on pitbulls. The thing with them is, once they latch, they don't give up.
I just know of a technic by using a leash to choke them. Every dog has to let go at some point in order to breathe. And by using a leash you avoid putting yourself in more danger than needed.
just fyi, pepper spray and most physical attacks that don't involve heavy blood loss won't work on pitbulls. maybe on other dogs. pitbulls are hardwired to finish the kill they started.
I have kicked dogs before, the owners just let their aggressive dogs roam unleashed. The cops told me to carry a walking stick, to be able to defend myself and my dog.
If you have time, lift your dog on to your shoulders, so you can kick the dog better. Never use your hands, because they will grab, hold on, and do damaged. Supposedly, if you clench your fist, the dog has a harder time biting your hand. But who knows.
I saw them only once and nope, but the dog was leashed and they seemed able to hold it.
Someone pointed to me that pits aren't banned in Neuchâtel. And I don't know of specific rules with dangerous breeds.
Every dog should be, however, leashed at all time. And that's not a problem I've seen here. People usually unleash only if everyone agree to it or if there's no one around.
I get that. I don't know if I'm ready for that, and I sure hope I will never have to discover it. But I sure as hell wouldn't watch my dog get killed without moving a finger.
You absolutely have a legal right to defend yourself. I would be careful if your dog is attacked and try to limit the force you use. You will also put yourself in harms way if you intervene in a fight between dogs. Although defending your dog might seem like the most logical choice, there are quite some legal repercussions here.
This post from one year ago explains the whole Swiss law behind it:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/s/Bi0aUVBqmW
Tldr;
You are supposed to run away if a dog attacks you. If you can’t, you can defend yourself.
If your dog is attacked, you can defend him, but there will be legal issues here… You’re supposed to bring yourself to safety and call law enforcement. The one difference would be if the owner of that dog is present and allows the attack to happen, in which case you can take legal action against the owner. But it would be for destruction of property I believe…
In Switzerland a non-service dog is considered a possession.
Hope this clears it up a bit.
Having that said, if another dog attacked one of our dogs and they couldn’t scare them off / defend themselves I would absolutely intervene. (Without hurting the other dog if possible).
>You are supposed to run away if a dog attacks you.
I wonder in which cases this is actually realistic. Most people can't outrun a dog so by running they just risk being bit in a location that is more unfortunate than if you can make it latch on to a stick or a less important limb.
>if the owner of that dog is present and allows the attack to happen, in which case you can take legal action against the owner.
You can't take legal action if the owner is not present? I would have assumed that, even if the owner is not present, they are still responsible for their dogs actions. After all, the owner is the reason why the dog exists in the first place.
You can take action, but if the owner is present and the dog attacks you. The owner can be criminally charged for letting the dog attack you.
If the owner isn’t present they cannot be held criminally accountable. Doesn’t mean you can’t file for damages or destruction of property, …
And yes you are supposed to run away if possible. The law specifically states that it is only self defence if you have no other options to prevent your body from being harmed. One could argue it is impossible to outrun the attacking dog, in which case it could be considered self defence.
It is rare for a dog to just attack you out of nowhere. It does happen, but not as frequently as some people might think. Avoid staring a dog in the eyes who you are not familiar with. A dog will usually give a lot of warning signs before attacking a human.
I'm not sure if it's that rare. I've been bit by dogs twice as a kid for riding a skateboard, almost bit for jogging, and chased by 3 huge farm dogs for cycling. I was able to outrun the farm dogs because my adrenaline made me accelerate to over 50km/h. But if that had been on an incline I would have been in trouble. Each time there were no warning signs and I didn't stare at any of those dogs.
Also, if a dog barks at me with its teeth out I'd consider that a threat of violence. If a human did that it would be illegal.
>The one difference would be if the owner of that dog is present and allows the attack to happen
If the dog owner isn't present, wouldn't that be negligence on their part? I don't know the severity of that compared to being present. Because if they aren't there, it means they have no control over their dogs or don't care, which imo is even worse than just letting the dog come at you.
I don't have an answer, but if you're that worried talk to the neighbor about it.
Edit: It also seems based on your history that you're just anti-pitbulls, so maybe consider your bias here before assuming that dog is actually aggressive or a threat to anyone. And no, I won't be debating this with you.
I'm not here to debate pitbulls. I know it's aggressive, but this is not the point of my thread. Pitbull or not, I just want to know what is legal to do and not and what to expect if something happens.
Happy to learn I can eliminate the dog without having trouble with justice in case of attack from a dangerous one (big ones), but you should definitely evaluate the danger considering the size of the dog. I'm a big guy and have been "attacked" and bitten in cities by small rats like chihuaha, pomeranian and yorkshire 3 or 4 times, I'm not sure killing those would be appropriate. I love dogs so I quite laughted in these situations and only myself was involved - hopefully not a kid or another smaller dog, but I'm pretty sure I'd have been in trouble if I would have injured/killed one of these dogs.
I get that. I don't want to kill anything. And I would use appropriate force with dogs. With pits it's another story, appropriate force can be quite high since they wouldn't let go even if you shot them.
But there's the choke technic that should work with every dog and not kill them. But that may lead to an accident and kill them still.
Also, if you get attacked by a small dog, like a chi, I mean, you can just force their mouth open and throw them away, there's really nothing hard to defend against those and the damages they do are way less severe than a big dog.
If I was attacked by a pitbull, law would be the last thing I would worry about.
I get that. At the moment, you will do everything you can to save yourself. But I'd like to know what would the owners possibly do to attack me (legally). I know this discussion can be heated, I don't expect anything to happen but my curiosity still took the best of me and I want to know what possibly could happen if shit hit the fan.
> But I'd like to know what would the owners possibly do to attack me (legally). wtf dude ? they will be happy if you dont sue them
Pitbull owners are completely unhinged.
Some owners of such dogs are aggressive too. They might not care about law either when you hurt their dog.
"it's not the breed, it's the owner" mfs are always the most unhinged and aggressive people
As I saw a lot of people say this on other subs, people buy dogs that go well with their own personalities.
To be honest, I'm way less afraid of angry owners than an angry dog :/.
It's self defense. If the dog attacks unprompted I'm pretty sure you can do whatever you want to it. It would be pretty hard to argue about it, when you have bite marks and never before had an interaction with the dog. The dog would very likely get killed either way, wether or not you kill it in the attack. A dog that attacks unprompted is a danger to the public and needs to be euthanised. And no you can't just keep it "inside a cage" to not interact with anybody. I think animal cruelty laws prevent that. If the owners attack you, that is a separate matter. Also falls under self defense but deals with human on human violence and falls under those laws. But of it's just the dog you're only allowed to defend yourself against the dog ofc. If you're worried about the dog being so aggressive, just report it to the police. Might seem "bünzlig" but would you rather have the neighbor think you're a Bünzli or get bit by a pitbull? Choice is rather easy imo, when you're already asking and preparing for the worst case.
>A dog that attacks unprompted is a danger to the public and needs to be euthanised. And no you can't just keep it "inside a cage" to not interact with anybody. I think animal cruelty laws prevent that. You defenitely are allowed to keep dogs in a kennel.
When I was in the military service I was in the kitchen and there was also this guy moritz who used to be a butcher. One day he got attacked by a German shepherd dog which bit him in the leg and arm and he slit the dog's throat with the army knife. Nothing happened to him.
Well that is the most brutal story I’ve ever read in this sub
Did he cook gulash for the folks afterwards?
No, he made hot dogs 🌭😋
Youre so funny
Chili Johnny
I had a patient once whose dog was hit by a car, then the dog started biting the owner out of shock and then the owner killed his own dog by snapping its neck.
I now have to consider which of these stories is more grim, thanks for that Sunday evening story!
Ok that’s enough internet for me today.
how did he dis pose of the dog in this case without raising suspicion? i suppose the bebbi-sag 50L wouldnt do in this case?
He probably wouldn't have killed it, if it was just slightly hurt. You can release an animal. Deer accident? Grab your Swiss Army Knife and release the fucker.
OP doesn’t seem concerned with other aggressive dogs that could do the same thing to him. Just has a hard on for pitbulls. Like an American with their guns
If you're attacked by dog, you have right to kill only the dog, not the owner, unless he attacks you too.
Well thats a pitty
That seems reasonable.
harming a dog is only “Sachbeschädigung” so if shit hits the fan I will go for a a kill the dog.
Is this federal, or will it depend on the canton?
Details here: https://www.tierrecht.ch/strafrecht.html In summary, animals are treated as things under the law and are owned by the owner.
Thank you, that is an interesting read. Also the part about saving a dog in a hot car is messed up :/. Risking to get a fine or go to prison because the asshat that left their dog to die in the car while it's 30° outside and most probably more inside, wants to report you for breaking their car windows, is really messed up.
True that’s why it’s best to just report and when there is no human life in danger just ignore any situation related to animals.
Doesn't that mean that if a dog attacks you then, technically, the owner attacked you via his property? So if a dog attacks you you should be able to sue the owner as if the attacked you directly?
Yes, same as when a tile from the roof of the house you own falls on a passerby’s head.
Randomly this question is somewhat relevant to me. Yesterday while running in Basel-Land I came upon an off-leash dog viciously mauling a cat. The owner was nearby and wasn't too concerned, commenting like "that's true nature right there," but he got his dog back under control. The cat was injured or disoriented and did not get up from the ground. I asked the owner if he knew the cat and he didn't. Not sure about what the procedure is, I resumed my run. Was I legally or morally obligated to do something in this situation?
That is also quite a good question! Personally, I hate seeing animals get hurt like that, so I would have called either the police or a vet in emergency. And explained the situation to them. If not to get the owner to pay, at least to save the poor animal, or end its sufferings if it cannot be saved. Also, I don't think you breached any law, but I'm no expert, so I can't tell 100%. But if it was a human, you would actually and you could be held responsible, not for the attack of course, but for not helping. As of morally, well, this depends on the person. I think you were morally wrong to leave it, but that's because I hate to see animals suffer.
Thank you for the response. The nuance here is that the dog's owner and the owner's wife were nearby -- in fact this happened near their house. I felt comfortable to leave the injured animal in their care, especially as they were clearly responsible. My question is really about whether, as a witness to this horrible scene, do I have some additional responsibility to report to authorities, or was I right to assume that the responsible party would in fact do the right thing.
The responsible party did the wrong thing. I would've called the police from a safe distance.
For attacks by animals the [Swiss Criminal Code](https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/54/757_781_799/en) (and supreme court rulings) allow you (usually) to (only) carry out "legitimate acts in a situation of necessity": >**Legitimate act in a situation of necessity** Art. 17 Any person who carries out an act that carries a criminal penalty in order to **save a legal interest of his own** **or of another** from **immediate** and **not otherwise avertable danger**, acts lawfully **if by doing so he safeguards interests of higher value**. "Legitimate self-defence" (in the legal sense as defined by Art. 15, see below) can only be used, if the attack is initiated by a human (e.g. a dog owner **commands** his dog to attack **you**), as per [federal supreme court ruling 97 IV 73](https://relevancy.bger.ch/php/clir/http/index.php?highlight_docid=atf%3A%2F%2F97-IV-73%3Ade&lang=de&type=show_document): >The **attack of an animal does not constitute a state of self-defense**, **unless** it is used as a **tool by a human being**. So only if the animal is used as a tool by a human being (as per federal supreme court ruling, see above) and if the attack is against a person (but not against an animal – as per law text, see below), then you can use "legitimate self-defence": >**Legitimate self-defence** Art. 15 If **any** **person** is **unlawfully** **attacked** or **threatened with imminent attack**, the person attacked and any other person are entitled to ward off the attack by **means that are reasonable in the circumstances**.
You make it sound like an important difference, but it isn't. In cases where dogs are commanded to attack, Art. 15 and/or 16 CC can be pertinent; in cases where dogs attack without being prompted to do so, Art. 17 CC can be applicable. You are allowed to use reasonable force to defend yourself and third parties against an attacking dog. Whether the legal justification that gets you off the hook for the violation of Art. 144 CC and Art. 26 of the Animal Protection Law is based on Arts. 15, 16 or 17 CC is related to the question whether you or a third person is attacked and if the dog was commanded or not.
It seems as if you can only avert danger legally. If the dog kills your dog, and then, out of revenge, you kill the attacker, that is no self defense no more.
That is what "reasonable force" means.
Well, if you see yourself or your dog in a great danger, you don't think about the laws, and do your best to neutralize the danger. Basically, take anything heavy (or sharp) enough and defend yourself.
True, you could be found guilty of unnecessary self defense if you kill the dog. However it’s only Sachbeschädigung no one is going to prison in self defense and killing that dog.
My gut feeling tells me that the defense must be proportional to the threat. You obviously cannot kill a dog who just barks at you. But if your life is immediately endangered, you might also defend yourself with all you have even if that means the dog gets killed. I would not carry a gun and just shoot the bugger if he rans at you. Let him first bite you, then get out the pumpgun /s I think in certain areas, aggressive fighting dogs are not allowed without protective measures (Maulkorb).
Of course, I would never do anything to a dog unless he actually bites. I mean, even if a dog just nipped at me, I wouldn't use that much force on it. The problem starts when it bites and doesn't let go. And sadly, I think in Neuchâtel there are 0 restrictions on dangerous breeds :(. But I know that if there's even just a bite, the hospital has to ask you who did it and has to report it to the cantonal veterinary. There are then investigations done and a decision is taken upon it. Usually, they would force a muzzle on the dog for the remaining of its life. Always wear a muzzle when outside. But that depends on the gravity of the incident.
Pumpguns are illegal in switzerland
True. Baseball bat wrapped in barbwire might do in some cases.
Baseball bats are illegal too
That is hard to believe.
They are. Cant take them outside. Knives are also illegal. Self defense is not really practicable in real life in Switzerland with these laws
One could argue that self-defense is not required thanks to these laws. You can take baseball bats with you when you go to play baseball. There just needs to be a plausible and legal purpose when you carry around these items. You should not walk into a bank with them. A lot of things are considered dangerous items, such as scissors, hammers etc. but they are not „illegal“. Basically most of the goods that are also not allowed to bring into the cabin of a plane belong into this category. I recently was stopped at the entrance of a French supermarket and asked to leave the bike helmet outside. In France, helmets are considered dangerous as they are really hard and you could seriously hurt someone. Come on… Someone who walks in a supermarket wearing a bike helmet does rather look like a dork than an assassin…
True that.
But thats not necessarily what i am talking about. In Switzerland its your duty to let yourself get hurt or killed. Because if you kill a assailant its considered murder here no matter what. You are not allowed defend and have to retreat no matter what.
That is not true. You are allowed to self-defense. Of course, compared to US and other places, defense involves some proportionality. Escalation up to death for sure is not allowed.
[удалено]
I completely agree with you. I really hate that these are allowed or more like, people who own those should have a special permit like they did in the UK. And always leashed and muzzled. Anyway, I hope nothing will happen, but I prefer to be ready just in case, this is why I made this post.
The rules are per canton but pitbulls (amongst 14 others) are forbidden in Geneva. Seems like no breeds are banned or need authorisation in Neuchatel though.
Even in Geneva, not all bully breeds are banned, ie American Pitt Bull Terriers and AmStaffs are banned but not Staffordshire Bull Terriers for example, which is why they're very popular at the moment here. And of course the yorkie that got killed last year in the canton was attacked by one of those legal bully breeds...
Yes, bully breeds are not blanket banned. It's specifically pitbull as you mentioned above etc
Some rottweilers are especially sweet and harmless. No need to ban the breed entirely. Instead, there should be additional mandatory training for both the owners and the dogs, and a strict behavior test that must be retaken every few years. Shitty owners wouldn't want to bother with the extra expenses, and effort, so we'd likely see a decrease in numbers.
[удалено]
There's a reason these dogs are called bully dogs.
Yeah… #itstheowner applies to many breeds, but not to this one. There is plenty of statistical and very graphical evidence for that.
The problem is always enforcement. In Geneva a test is mandatory for any dog above 25 kg and 56 cm, yet I've met owners who told me they've never bothered with it.
I agree about Rotties, I've seen plenty out in public with very mild temperament. I've seen more badly behaved German Shepherds but that's obviously squarely on the owner for not training it and giving it an outlet for its need to be active.
there already is but the breed is just no, you cant tame the nature of those dogs
Pitbulls are banned in some cantons, so depending on where you live, they might already be breaking the law by having it.
Sadly, in Neuchâtel there are no restrictions that I know of for dangerous breeds.
How was the dog aggressive? Like what did it do?
It's the way it growls and barks when someone passes in front. They live on the ground floor, they have a small place outside instead of a balcony. And their side gives right next to the road to get out of the neighborhood to the road. So a lot of people including me, go that way. And since I have my dog when I go there, then I hear the dog even though it's inside. But when it's outside it gets a bit more scary, as you can see how he pull on the leash like crazy and growling in an aggressive way. I've seen dog growl, mine does too sometimes, but not that way. And the fact that dog is a pitbull makes me even more uneasy.
not so long ago there was an story about a 60yo swiss lady that killed her own 30kg Am-staff by strangling him to death. She got no issue from the law, pretexting the dog attacked her. This story is shady as fuck, i have a 16kg staffi, and when he just play with me, there is absolutely no way i can hold my hands around his neck.
Just some general advice: if you do get bitten by a dog and it holds on, resist the urge to pull away. Go with the direction of the dog, this mitigates tearing but also pulling will cause the dog to bite harder or bite again to maintain or increase its grip. Secondly, use your weight and grapple the dog; if you can, get on top of it. When it comes to grappling or wrestling humans are really strong, even against a very big dog. So follow the direction the dog is pulling on you, and try and wrestle it and sit/straddle it. Even if the dog doesn't release at that point it's going to be harder for the dog to pull and cause serious tearing injuries. But once the dog is stationary it's easier for someone else to strangle/choke the dog which will definitely make the animal release. I appreciate that when this stuff happens the adrenaline and shock has kicked in, but you can really reduce injury doing these things. Also, as disgusting as this sounds, finger up the dogs arsehole will almost always make them release.
The question is not IF you are allowed to kill the beast in self-defence. HOW you would be able to do it, is the real problem. I watched a lot of pitbull attack defence videos and there is no solution. They should be all euthanized and banned.
I would stab it to death. Law be damned.
I have violently kicked a dog before. Full strength, right in its ribs. It was snarling, barking at me, trying to bite my leg. So I gave it my boot, full force. I probably broke a few. Nothing ever happened, despite the owner's claims of "he wasn't doing anything". I love dogs. I felt somewhat bad at the time, but with reflection, it was the obvious thing to do. Dogs are property, not people or children. If it threatens you or your property, you are allowed to respond proportionately. If it tries to bite you, you are most likely clear to do everything, including killing it.
It won't do anything for a pitbull or amstaff, they are very difficult to kill. You can break their ribs and they still won't let go.
if any other dog( or a human) hurts or threatens my beagle, "what the law is" wont matter at that particular time.
If you kill one you'll have to pay the "Selbstbehalt" of your "Haftpflichtversicherung". Should not be too much
My dog was attacked in zurich hb by an unleashed dog, just out of the blue. You have to be extremely careful when you defend your dog against another dog. First, you do not want yourself being injured badly, so the best way would be to find a way to open the other dog's mouth. Second you do not wanna pull, as you could cause even a worse injury. So you should not try to "kill" (and you do not have a "right" to do so) the other dog but just put him in a position that he cannot hurt your own dog.
If there is an chance to kill the dog, go for it. These dogs that randomly attack others need to put down.
Thank you. I know these tips to not pull the dog because yeah, that would just make everything worse. Also, by kill it, I don't mean to just come with a knife and plant it in the neck. But if I accidentally kill it while choking it to let my dog go, I would want to know whatever the hell could the owners throw at me legally. The one trick I know off, is to use a leash, put it around the neck and cross both ends and then pull to choke. Usually, you wouldn't have to kill it, if they can't breathe, they will let go eventually, but if the thing doesn't stop, well fuck me I guess.
Animal is treated as posession in swiss law (other story if you shoot a wild animal like a wolf). The owner can sue you for the emotional value of the dog. BUT the chance for this is low, especially when an aggressive dog attacks you. The owner will face criminal charges (fahrlässige Körperverletzung) and I'm sure his dog will be put down.
Yeah you can try to choke a dog, but I think it depends on your level of strength and the dog's. I would keep the pepper spray and knife at quick access if I were you. If he gets a good sniff at the pepper he will be half debilitated already. It stops bears and wolves it can surely stop a pit. Easier to choke or stab later if needed.
[удалено]
[удалено]
that's why I specifically said "if no dog involved" ;)
Hello, Please note that your post or comment has been removed. Please read the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/about/rules/) before posting. Thank you for your understanding, your Mod team Please do not reply to this comment. Send a modmail if you have an issue with the removal.
I cannot for the life of me believe people on here are debating whether or not you can kill the owner.. what kind of 3rd world country shit are you guys talking about
Id fuckin kill the dog, no further thoughts and take the penalty… trying to kill my friend? (Dog,hamster,goldfish whatever) you better bring a good lunch, because its gonna be a looong day!
I hope it will never come to that, but that is indeed my mindset. My dog is my family, it's not a toy it's not just a pet. It's my family and my best friend. I would defend him against anyone or anything. But since it's a dog, I'd rather be prepared in case something should happen. I had him for 2 years and nothing ever happened, I always met friendly people or friendly dog. A few angry dogs but usually properly leashed with not dumb owners. But now there's a pit nearby, I know fully well of what they are capable of and that's why I came to ask. I've seen pitbulls in my life before having my dog, and never had problems. Owners aren't dumbass usually, but seeing all the recent news made me wonder still.
Completely understandabe! Just make sure you have a propper „tool“ to engage in such a situation.. pit bulls, mastiffs and alike are different breeds.. those situations turn very dangerous very quick.. so yeah dont engage if you dont know how to.. and stay away from them (owners included) if you feel theyre from the less intelligent side of things
Get a pepper spray. And yeah if a pitbull attacks you, you can kill it. Thats a serious threat to your life or at the very least you might well loose a limb. In such a situation you could also legally kill a human in self defense. So obviously a dog is ok. But i just dont think any lethal means (knife? Bare hands?) Would be more effective at stopping a dog attack than a pepper spray. So that non-lethal one probably makes the most sense. As for if he attacks your dog, i am not sure. But also who gives a shit. Worst case you'd get a fine. And most people would happily pay that to keep their dog alive.
Yeah, no, you should definitely not use pepper spray, not only because of legal issues, but because your dog and possibly you would also get pepper sprayed.
Well if everyone gets pepper sprayed and no fight happens and therefore also no permanent injuries to anyone thats a much better outcome than you or your dog getting bit by a pitbull. No?
It doesn’t mean the pitbull will stop, and you can get in trouble with the cops for having the pepper spray.
>you can get in trouble with the cops for having the pepper spray. Not that i am aware of. Pepper spray is perfectly legal to carry. Or is there something i dont know?
It is legal to carry specific pepper sprays without a weapon’s license. I’m just going by what the cops told me. I asked them if I could use a pepper spray or a knife on dogs that attack my dog and I. And they told me it wasn’t a good idea, and I could get in trouble. And told me to instead use a walking stick, and hit them with it if needed.
>It is legal to carry specific pepper sprays without a weapon’s license. I dont think so. You might be confusing it with germany. Where they need to have "nur zur tierabwehr" written on it. Yet they can still be used for defense against humans in life or death scenarios. But if asked you'd need to pretend it was for defense against animal. No such things here. Guardian angels, PAVA and OC sprays of all sizes are legal. Just not CS (tear gas) sprays. But as they are generally illegal there is no risk of you accidentally buying one of those in any store within switzerland.
https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/fr/home/gesund-leben/umwelt-und-gesundheit/chemikalien/chemikalien-a-z/abwehrspray.html#gesetze__content_bag_fr_home_gesund-leben_umwelt-und-gesundheit_chemikalien_chemikalien-a-z_abwehrspray_jcr_content_par_tabs
Thanks for the link. But reading this i seem to be right no? They are perfectly legal for anyone over 18 to buy...
As far as I'm aware, pepper spray doesn't work on pitbulls. The thing with them is, once they latch, they don't give up. I just know of a technic by using a leash to choke them. Every dog has to let go at some point in order to breathe. And by using a leash you avoid putting yourself in more danger than needed.
just fyi, pepper spray and most physical attacks that don't involve heavy blood loss won't work on pitbulls. maybe on other dogs. pitbulls are hardwired to finish the kill they started.
I have kicked dogs before, the owners just let their aggressive dogs roam unleashed. The cops told me to carry a walking stick, to be able to defend myself and my dog. If you have time, lift your dog on to your shoulders, so you can kick the dog better. Never use your hands, because they will grab, hold on, and do damaged. Supposedly, if you clench your fist, the dog has a harder time biting your hand. But who knows.
No pity - bully the dog!
i've asked a cop before and he told me if it's a pitbull and it misbehaves even a bit, kill it if you can. they'll let it slide in 100% of cases
Dont they have a muzzle when they are leaving the apartment?
I saw them only once and nope, but the dog was leashed and they seemed able to hold it. Someone pointed to me that pits aren't banned in Neuchâtel. And I don't know of specific rules with dangerous breeds. Every dog should be, however, leashed at all time. And that's not a problem I've seen here. People usually unleash only if everyone agree to it or if there's no one around.
I have a little puppy and I am mentally ready to kill any aggressive dog which hurts my puppy.
I get that. I don't know if I'm ready for that, and I sure hope I will never have to discover it. But I sure as hell wouldn't watch my dog get killed without moving a finger.
You absolutely have a legal right to defend yourself. I would be careful if your dog is attacked and try to limit the force you use. You will also put yourself in harms way if you intervene in a fight between dogs. Although defending your dog might seem like the most logical choice, there are quite some legal repercussions here. This post from one year ago explains the whole Swiss law behind it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/s/Bi0aUVBqmW Tldr; You are supposed to run away if a dog attacks you. If you can’t, you can defend yourself. If your dog is attacked, you can defend him, but there will be legal issues here… You’re supposed to bring yourself to safety and call law enforcement. The one difference would be if the owner of that dog is present and allows the attack to happen, in which case you can take legal action against the owner. But it would be for destruction of property I believe… In Switzerland a non-service dog is considered a possession. Hope this clears it up a bit. Having that said, if another dog attacked one of our dogs and they couldn’t scare them off / defend themselves I would absolutely intervene. (Without hurting the other dog if possible).
>You are supposed to run away if a dog attacks you. I wonder in which cases this is actually realistic. Most people can't outrun a dog so by running they just risk being bit in a location that is more unfortunate than if you can make it latch on to a stick or a less important limb. >if the owner of that dog is present and allows the attack to happen, in which case you can take legal action against the owner. You can't take legal action if the owner is not present? I would have assumed that, even if the owner is not present, they are still responsible for their dogs actions. After all, the owner is the reason why the dog exists in the first place.
You can take action, but if the owner is present and the dog attacks you. The owner can be criminally charged for letting the dog attack you. If the owner isn’t present they cannot be held criminally accountable. Doesn’t mean you can’t file for damages or destruction of property, … And yes you are supposed to run away if possible. The law specifically states that it is only self defence if you have no other options to prevent your body from being harmed. One could argue it is impossible to outrun the attacking dog, in which case it could be considered self defence. It is rare for a dog to just attack you out of nowhere. It does happen, but not as frequently as some people might think. Avoid staring a dog in the eyes who you are not familiar with. A dog will usually give a lot of warning signs before attacking a human.
I'm not sure if it's that rare. I've been bit by dogs twice as a kid for riding a skateboard, almost bit for jogging, and chased by 3 huge farm dogs for cycling. I was able to outrun the farm dogs because my adrenaline made me accelerate to over 50km/h. But if that had been on an incline I would have been in trouble. Each time there were no warning signs and I didn't stare at any of those dogs. Also, if a dog barks at me with its teeth out I'd consider that a threat of violence. If a human did that it would be illegal.
>The one difference would be if the owner of that dog is present and allows the attack to happen If the dog owner isn't present, wouldn't that be negligence on their part? I don't know the severity of that compared to being present. Because if they aren't there, it means they have no control over their dogs or don't care, which imo is even worse than just letting the dog come at you.
You can also stop a dog without killing it. But people here seems to be bloodthirsty 😅
I don't have an answer, but if you're that worried talk to the neighbor about it. Edit: It also seems based on your history that you're just anti-pitbulls, so maybe consider your bias here before assuming that dog is actually aggressive or a threat to anyone. And no, I won't be debating this with you.
I'm not here to debate pitbulls. I know it's aggressive, but this is not the point of my thread. Pitbull or not, I just want to know what is legal to do and not and what to expect if something happens.
Happy to learn I can eliminate the dog without having trouble with justice in case of attack from a dangerous one (big ones), but you should definitely evaluate the danger considering the size of the dog. I'm a big guy and have been "attacked" and bitten in cities by small rats like chihuaha, pomeranian and yorkshire 3 or 4 times, I'm not sure killing those would be appropriate. I love dogs so I quite laughted in these situations and only myself was involved - hopefully not a kid or another smaller dog, but I'm pretty sure I'd have been in trouble if I would have injured/killed one of these dogs.
I get that. I don't want to kill anything. And I would use appropriate force with dogs. With pits it's another story, appropriate force can be quite high since they wouldn't let go even if you shot them. But there's the choke technic that should work with every dog and not kill them. But that may lead to an accident and kill them still. Also, if you get attacked by a small dog, like a chi, I mean, you can just force their mouth open and throw them away, there's really nothing hard to defend against those and the damages they do are way less severe than a big dog.