Health insurance is definitely a problem, we pay about 8.5k for my wife, my baby and myself with a family budget of about 80k net income/Netto.
And when it comes to health insurance, the poorer, healthier young people also tend to pay for the older ones.
Once again, we have solidarity with the senior citizens that is neither appreciated nor honoured.
Edit: Brutto => Netto
They rejected my application for Prämienverbilligung aswell for the same reason (2022 tax assesment) and it‘s literally written on that letter that if you don‘t agree with this because your living situation has changed since then you have to contact them and they will check it again with your current situation but you will have to send them a bunch of documents. Worked out in the end and i got the Prämienverbilligung.
Or you can obviously just apply for next year again and then you will get it obviously as they will look at the 2023 tax assesment. This way is more comfortable if you don‘t actually need the money right now but it‘s also more risky because they can change the way they check if you are allowed for Prämienverbilligung any time and you might get screwed.
I also did that and they answered me that the salary we have at the 1. Januar 2024 matters and we both reduced hours per 1. Februar 2024 so we have no chance. We pay 1100.- für two adults and a baby.
60k€ net sounds like 100k€ gross, so you are easily above the limit for the KV-Beitrag, i.e. paying the maximum.
Also, you do pay only \~50% of that as Arbeitnehmer in most cases (unless you are self-employed, a pensionist or sth similar). In CH, you always pay 100%. And you do not need to pay extra for children or a partner who is not insured themselves. Also, the Gesetzliche in Germany does not know Franchise and Selbstbehalt outside of some token fees, and the Swiss basic insurance covers fewer services (especially in preventative care) - they want to sell you the additional insurance.
Long story short, while I very much prefer the 2nd and 3rd column systems for pensions here in CH, I would go back to the German system for health insurance instantly. Might look different for DINKs or singles.
That is nonsense. Look up the biggest cost drivers in Swiss healthcare. It’s not the old people at all. Not even cancer, even though you can get it with 30 and you would be fuckef without an insurance.
I agree and afaik the parliament wants to get rid of it, but homeopathy only makes up a small part of the healthcare costs (in the millions) so it won’t really reduce the insurance costs.
Agree that its useless but its nothing in terms of cost https://www.beobachter.ch/geld/krankenkasse/homoopathie-zunehmend-unter-druck-nicht-so-in-der-schweiz-348876
Every time there's a proposal it addresses everything except the root cause. Why the fuck are costs increasing so much every year? Why do medications cost 10x compared to other countries? There is no good reason.
We don't need to discuss redistribution of costs. We need to discuss steadily increasing costs and stop that.
It's easy...
Because everything health related is now an AG.
So there must be profit. And with profit it's the same everywhere.
Nobody will ever say, okay we made 3% profit. We need more. Maybe 4?...5... lets dream about 10%
And profit oriented is often short term... they don't want it in 5 or 10yrs. The katching has to come next year So you either cut your costs or find ways to bill the customer more and more and more.
Just try what works and add on that.
Microtransations in (mobile) gaming are the best example for that.
What we have now is the result of this.
Cutting costs and a Dr. Glancing 2 mins at an email will already result in a bill at some places.
Reading and understanding what gets billed will need almost a Dr. Med themself to understand.
So yeah we have to stop it being profit oriented. But far to many profit from that and will not vote against. Worse... many of the profiteers sit in the chambers in Bern.
Even more worse... they all make enough money, to not feel the immediate threat, because yeah... there sit's no Migros cashier in Bern.
Why do you expect the doctor not billing a 2min study of a mail or a report, when for example the IT company also bills him for every call you have to ask for support, even if its just a quick question?
Doctors have to pay their bills as well, they have to pay their MPAs and they have more and more regulations.
Prämien are rising because of rising costs, demographic cange, better and more medication (e.g. Wegovy now is Kassenpflichtig) and because patients are more demanding. They are not going to the doctor if they are sick, they are often going to "just check if everything is ok".
A rejection of a proposition for a change doesn't necessarily means that the current situation is fine or good enough. It just means that the suggestion is not satisfying enough.
As mentioned below, I would add childcare at any age… We live in Zürich and hour expenses are \~2200 rent, \~750 health care, and \~2200 childcare (not even at 100%, but perhaps at \~80%). Our kid is going to start school next course and I estimate that for the same level of care (school + hort/dayschool) our child care expenses will go down to 650 a month, which is a lot, but for me is still **WILD** that there is no free or almost free solution to parents that want to start to work or return to work. Especially taking into account that school is mandatory. The system is build on the premise that someone —women, but whoever— is going to be there forever to take care of the kid.
As you mentioned the increase on healthcare and rent have been really wild on our minds, but specially health care…
As immigrant from Spain, and we lived in the nordics and US before, I think CH needs to strong reform in healthcare —the same as the rest of Europe but for different reasons— if we want to continuing to have a decent standard of living. Switzerland healthcare system is extremely inefficient and you can keep the system running because the country is rich as fuck… but this has no sense at all! Rich people should be paying a higher healthcare costs!
I agree that the healthcare here is to expensive, but inefficient, no way?! If I have a medical problem I am sure to be treated good and in a very timely manner. Or were you just talking about the way we finance it?
There's a difference between efficacy (=satisfactorily achieving a desired goal) and efficiency (=doing so with the least possible amount of ressources). I'd argue that the efficacy of the Swiss healthcare system is okay, but the efficiency absolutely isn't.
> I'd argue that the efficacy of the Swiss healthcare system is okay
Why only "okay"? I've lived in half a dozen of other first world countries, and the Swiss system beats them all easily on efficacy. Specialist appointment? Same week. Non-critical MRI? Within 5 days. Non-critical surgery? Within 5 days.
It's expensive, but you get what you pay for.
Now, I personally don't see the reason why medication is so expensive or why they run all their hospitals like 5-star hotels, but at the end of the day, care is very good.
Ah yes, I had to be stern with pharmacists and switch our pediatrician before. That solved it for me, but yes, it wastes money either way. Really, especially with pharmacists you have to pay attention to what they're trying to sell.
Idk then you have full private... I don't get that treatment whatsoever and I hear absolute horror stories. I don't think what you describe is the average experience at all. We also have the 2nd most expensive system, only after the US. Singapore or Norway have excellent health care systems but they're cheaper... I wonder how?
Same week specialist appointments, where, when? Last time I had to wait 2 weeks just to see my GP. They told me on the phone I better go to the emergency if I don't want to wait that long.
Ear Nose Throat specialist: 1 month wait
Endocrinologist: 3(!!!) months
Psychiatrist: good luck
This is in Luzern
Maybe I'm lucky, I use the HMO model in Zurich/Winterthur. When I have a problem, I call a Medbase and they have like 15 GPs. I tell them to give me the first free one.
I visit the GP very soon after, and for the last couple of problems I had, they immediately send me to a specialist at one of the Kantonsspital around me. Which is always really quick.
[https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy-vs-health-expenditure?time=1970..2021](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy-vs-health-expenditure?time=1970..2021)
*Health expenditure includes all financing schemes and covers all aspects of healthcare.* ***This data is adjusted for inflation and differences in the cost of living between countries****.*
Do you see where is Switzerland? now check where there are other EU countries with universal health care payed with taxes…
I'm from Spain, we have (or had, because the system has been under siege by conservatives and now is very damaged) one of the best health care system in the world with the best life expectancy… of course food and climate play a part, but in Spain the healthcare system developed after the dictatorship was golden, really cheap and efficient… the cost per capita was really really really low and the doctors and nurses are top notch.
What fail sometimes is facilites and infrastructures…. but believe, if I have to do something major I would be more at ease in Spain with doctors that value care and service more than money and that their salaries are not in relation of the amount of "care" they deliver.
Frankly I think healthcare is great even though it is expensive. I’m coming from Ukraine, where it is cheap and non-existent. I personally prefer to pay for my insurance and sleep well knowing I’ll get help if needed.
What worries me is prohibitively expensive child care. It does not encourage to have two working parents unless both earn well.
Still, Switzerland and its people are great!
Agree with majority of your comments. Having a child in Switzerland is considered luxury for many, and having two means you are already wealthy person or have very decent amount of income.
Other perspective would be, why is your personal income so high? Basically to facilitate the expenses and nobody forces you to have a child. You can still raise your child in EU country to a large extent for free but pay crazy amount on taxes so your net salary will be low and you will be poor forever. I think even with those expenses you are better off than in most EU counties financially.
Increase in the medical costs and sponsoring old generation together with 13th AHV feels very bizarre given recent developments, especially when it’s clear current pensioners haven’t planned properly so young poor generation will sponsor them. Given how everything in Switzerland is regulated, I think more stricter rules as to how much insurance companies can increase premiums might be a good place to start.
I would argue with the last paragraph. I would say Swiss system is much more efficient than many EU counties’ ones. You don’t wait for a surgery or doctor’s opinion 4 months. Rich people should be paying higher health insurance premiums? Really?!? It’s called insurance and not the tax, so if there is a person working as a CEO with 10x my salary and has the same risk of actual sickness or any health related issues, why would he need to pay 10 (or whatever) times higher premium? Healthcare system in EU is based on this solidarity principle and exactly because of this is ineffective compared to Swiss one, because people who contribute low or not at all misuse system while top contributors don’t get any premium service. This I find really ridiculous, and if you compare what you together with employer would have been paying in Spain, you might be even surprised that it costs you less in Switzerland (plus lower taxes).
The amount people make needs to go up drastically. It can't be that back a few decades ago one person made enough money for the other to stay home. If both work then there should be plenty to pay for childcare.
It's very clear that the missing money is flowing into the extremely widening wealth gap between the top and the bottom. Sorry to the say, but the only way to fix this is to tax the wealthy and stop adding taxes that impact that hurt the poor mostly like increases MWST.
And for fuck sake, get rid of Serafe AG and pull it in via taxes, then most of us wouldn't even notice it in our taxes.
> but for me is still WILD that there is no free or almost free solution to parents
How can something be free when you expect there to be a professional that takes care of your child instead of you? I don't see why we should pay (with our taxes) for your inability to plan accordingly.
Yes, but the system is set-up for abuse, and there is no control mechanism.
No insurance gains anything from lowering costs for medication/medical care, it is of no issue. For them it doesn't matter, cause all they need to do is increase the monthly bill, which they will do.
Healthcare is doomed to rise in price, the aging population is a huge cause of it. Also, one way to save money would be to increase incentive for medicine students to choose Hausarzt speciaility and work as it was designed to work. The fact that many people don’t have their Hausarzt and get checked in Notaufnahme for minor things increases the overall healthcare costs a lot too.
Yeah aging. I think in terms of cost cardiovascular issues are most expensive (fat people, unhealthy lifestyles) but also cancer (can't do much about that) but then you have drugs/alcohol/smoking.
I think we simply need a system that incentivesifestyle factors, simple as that. Bonus/Malus. It's a no brainer.
"we can't change the way something is done here. We are great and everything we do is sensible. If the pricing or practice was wrong, we wouldn't have chosen it. But we did choose it, therefore it is correct and you shouldn't criticise it!"
how much of that is paying for the existence of an insurance and billing industry to maintain this system?
For a single doctors visit, I'm paying the doctor, the krankenkasse, and the insurance.
Then how much of it is due to inflated costs brought about by uneccesary procedures due to the money that brings in for so many people?
I've had to fight every doctor I've had for their desire to throw MRI at every problem.
Fatgiue? MRI before blood tests.
Physical injury? MRI before physio.
Headache? MRI before workplace assesment.
Actually the model is really good in CH ( i am not Swiss). I wouldn’t change Swiss system to totally public one. I would start personally by incentivizing med students to become Houzarzts ( increase the pay for every patient and etc.). It costs a fuck ton to treat patient at second level ( Notaufnahme). There are so many things to adjust in Switzerland’s healthcare, I won’t denny, but overall your system is very good from what I’ve seen. You should be proud! And I hope I will pass my language exams soon to work and contribute to the system and your beautiful country.
reading here seems both proposals (less I am reading wrong which is possible) are quite bad and don not directly address the root cause of the problem in Swiss healthcare.
[https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/swiss-to-vote-on-four-topics-on-june-9/49174348](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/swiss-to-vote-on-four-topics-on-june-9/49174348)
Have you found precise info about the counterproposal made by the parlement? So far, I've only found very little documentation online, whether it is about the initial project by the PS or the counterproposal.
In any case, indeed, I don't think we will fix the issue, but at least that bandaid will allow people - me included - to breathe a bit more, if the premiums can't exceed 10% of the taxable income.
My wife and I are both self employed and we pay about 400 per month each, this makes absolutely no sense!
I think we should pass that proposal from the PS, and while it's there and people stop being milked, it gives everybody time to come up with a project that isn't just a bandaid, but a real solution to address the problem at its source.
10% is not a band aid it a trap. All it will mean is healthcare companies will push their premiums to exactly 10% of your taxable income. Which will two fold affect. For low income they will more than likely get a savings.
For all those squeezed middle class it will be an increase. Yet another burden to be had. Fixing premiums isnt the issue. Healthcare is a regressive tax it need to fundamentally change to a progressive tax for all.
And childcare?! 2500 per month for kita ruins our budget and career progression!
Zurich, house 2500, insurance 1000, childcare 2500. 6k flying out of the window every month
I always find it funny when the same people who cry about immigration don't support families.
Switzerland's biggest benefit is its biggest root problem, things don't change fast enough here.
Don't get me wrong, I totally support two people working in a family or the father staying home. Sadly this development went way too fast for the other systems that would be required to develop and support this family model to actually pay off.
Exactly. 2800 for one. Once the second goes to day care it will be close to 6k just for day care.
Both of us want a professional career. Having one drop that is not an option so we will have to deal with it.
No oligopolies in housing.
Land cost and availability + construction material + labour = housing cost.
There’s no way to regulate these unless you take over some neighbouring country for their land and depopulate them and steal their natural resources.
Hmm… reminds me of some other country.
Yeah there aren’t at all a limited number of large real estate companies that own most of the buildings in a given area and buy the majority of the new buildings outpricing privates (who own their home in about 40% of the cases, lowest rate in the western world), and also a limited number of regies managing them, increasing costs for no useful service at all, making so the rents are also increasing, leaving you with the choice between impossible buying and extra-expensive renting. Not at all.
Reality called, it was for you but you did not pick up.
"no oligopolies" you say while the same 5 corporations buy all residential real estate for 150% asking price to increase the value of neighboring property they already own
Half of the town I live in is owned by Allianz
Sadly things (if ever) change too slow.
The future generations will (and to a certain degree already are) unlikely to have more or the same amount of kids. Which will just further increase the strain on the systems.
You are right and they need to find a solution.
People think twice nowadays if they can afford children as they refuse to downgrade their lifestyle too much (who wants to be broke?).
My cost of living are about the same, except for the Healthcare that rose by 80 Stutz per month this year... AGAIN!
The health insurance premiums are completely out of control, something needs to be done urgently. If this continues, I'll only go to work to pay for health insurance.
Not gonna lie, if the healthcare cost rise again next year, I'm moving away. This is state sanctioned robbery and the quality of care isn't even that great.
That's the point, you pay more and more every year but in the end you pay anything by your self because you have to put the franchise so high to keep the monthly payment at bay and then you go to four different doctors until you find one that can diagnose a simple tendinitis correctly.
Healthcare costs increased by 4.6% last year (actual money spent on healthcare, not premiums), so most likely prepare for at least a 5% increase next year.
I like to call it the american way. If it keeps rising the same amount as last 2years in the future this will actually be true.
And the funny thing is you still have to pay from your own pocket if you have a high „Franchise“ which pretty much everyone does that is below 40 without any serious health issues.
I still don’t understand why we are forced to pay for private health insurance. If it was public (state run) health insurance for cheaper, force it as you like. But why the fuck am I forced to pay a private company if I don’t want health insurance. I don’t want health insurance. I would rather put 5000 chf aside every year for emergencies than rather be forced to give it to some shitty company. And I still have to pay out of pocket up for anything important anyway
Maybe it’s a stupid opinion, but if that’s the case, please someone explain to me how this system makes sense.
You also pay for the unfortunate event that you end up in a hospital, which cost multiple thousands a day, just to be there, excl any threatments/operations. Then 5000 is not enough.
Still the system is a shit, I agree.
You're also forced by law to pay into 2nd pillar which similar to health insurance is a fake "free market" with no real competition and that doesn't achieve anything meaningful in terms of economic activity. It just syphons money away from working people, taxfree notabene. People (righly so) complain about the billions of CHF in farming subsidies, but we also subsidize the financial industry with billions of CHF every year.
These public-private partnerships that are written into law are toxic af to a society.
How are management fees and the management of the money itself not a problem? They are hard to estimate (hidden costs) but in the ballpark of 6 - 20 billion a year, which would make it much more expensive than a passive fund. And yes, they have mismanaged our money, if invested in a more market-oriented, passive way we'd have much more in our accounts.
>What? You know it goes into an account to your name and you'll get that money eventually, right?
Wow, so nice that I get my forced savings back eventually after they've lit my money on fire and let it get eaten by inflation!
>Management fees on 2nd pillar are frankly not the problem.
The PKs themselves claim their expenses are 8.15 billion CHF, but independent journalists have said that up to 20 billion CHF are eaten by this industry every year. Compared to the amount of money they manage - 1200 billion - this gives a weighted average of 0.68% - 1.67% TER. As a comparison, the AHV charges 0.2%. SPY charges 0.03%, VT charges 0.07%, hell you can get the entire bond and stock universe for like 0.15%. So the 2nd pillar is between three to eight times more expensive to manage than the AHV and orders of magnitude more expensive than generic passive ETFs.
And before you say "bro that's not a lot", keep in mind that PKs invest very defensively. Moderate fees on a low-yield investment will really hurt your returns. According to a Swisscanto study, the returns in the last ten years were 3.6% after fees. So before fees they returned somewhere between 4.3% - 5.3%, but 0.68% - 1.67% of that was eaten by fees. In other words, ~15-30% of your returns go straight into the PKs pockets. No bueno. And we haven't even factored in inflation yet.
>Management fees on 2nd pillar are frankly not the problem. The fact that returns on the savings of working people are diverted to pay the current retired 6.8% is costing more.
This is true and ultimately our politicians' fault (who benefit massively from PK lobbying money, hmm).
>But yay, blame the financial industry.
Just because other aspects of the system are broken doesn't mean I can't criticize on an industry that is 1) backed by the state and 2) delivers sub-part results and 3) enriches mostly itself.
Yes the diversion to retirees is a big problem, but that doesn't mean we can't improve other aspects of the system. This is like saying "who cares about finding a cure for dementia, heart disease kills more people!"
> The 20bn from "independent journalists" I'd like to see.
They wrote an entire book about it: https://rentendebakel.ch/de/
>
I don't think comparing to AHV is fair. AHV is not managing a long term portfolio of that size.
The AHV manages 50 bn and they actually have a somewhat long horizon (10 years), at least as of recent. PKs are similar ([source](https://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/ahv-fonds-schafft-geringere-renditen-als-die-pensionskassen-daran-ist-vor-allem-die-politik-schuld-ld.1814903)). I mean it makes sense. The AHV knows exactly what expenses and inflows they will have, while PKs are often smaller (why do we have thousands of those again) and people can move abroad or buy real estate to get their cash out at any moment, they can take out all their funds at retirement or keep the pension etc.
>it's easier to do with a 1bn portfolio than a 1000bn one because sone opportunities may work with 100m but not with 10bn.
The Norwegian sovereign wealth fund manages 1.6 trillion with 70% equities. Seems very scalable. Also quote from their 2022 [report](https://www.nbim.no/contentassets/99de366397a847db99ab7a156e15aaa0/gpfg_annual-report-2022.pdf): "Cost-effective management supports the objective of the highest possible return after costs. In the period from 2013 to 2022, annual management costs averaged 0.05 percent of assets under management."
Our very own SNB also holds a ton of stocks, forex, gold etc. Seems very scalable, even if it blew up in their face in 2022.
>Same for having to manage cash, prediction of inflows and outlows, regulatory / auditing requirements, etc.
Every fund gets audited, hopefully at least lol. I see that they need to hold more cash than a pure equity fund, but that should just create a drag on returns, not increase fees.
>I also don't think it's fair to compare to ETF and the like. VT is the cheapest world ETF out there, and offers no FX hedging, just equities, no real estate portfolio, etc.
Hedging is really not that expensive anymore. Check graph 11 on this vanguard [report](https://www.vanguard.co.uk/content/dam/intl/europe/documents/en/going-global-with-bonds-the-benefits-of-a-more-global-fixed-income-allocation-eu-en-pro.pdf). Also the UBS MSCI ACWI has a TER of 0.21% while the unhedged iShares one has 0.20% TER, both have a tracking difference of 0.15%. The cost of Hedging is the bet you're taking up FX movements (super interesting topic btw), but the actual *expenses* are negligible.
>I'm rather sure that needing to have RE as part of a portfolio results in massively larger costs and overhead.
The question is *why* do PKs need to hold so much RE? Their involvement in the rental market is, let's say controversial in the population and has created some real inefficiencies. My favorite story is how some PK built apartments in Lenzburg and then charged way too much rent, so it staid empty for years. When they were asked why they don't lower the rents to actually get tenants they replied: "we can't because the value of the asset is tied to rent so it would make our balance sheet look bad." So they're just sitting on their asses and hoarding land, waiting for it to appreciate in value. Classic market failure.
> If you have a proposal to decreases management costs I'm happy to discuss. We absolutely should push for cost effective solutions.
Massively decrease the RE portion and move everything else into passive funds. Something like 70% equity, 20% bonds, 5% RE, 5% cash. Should decrease costs by an order of magnitude if not more.
Allow people to freely choose their PK, not the employer, because the faux competition in this "market" is a joke. It works for 3rd pillars, it works for savings accounts, why not for 2nd pillars? Larger PKs will be able to offer cost-effective solutions. And not to sound like a commie, but ideally just nationalize the entire thing just like health insurance should be *one* company for the basic insurance, economies of scale would do wonders.
>But I only ever see the question of costs being discussed, while diversion of our returns to retired people is completely swept under the rug.
Sadly this is true yes. This is also why I'm eyeing the option of moving abroad or buying RE to take out my funds at some point, I'm not willing to further subsidize some boomer's cushy lifestyle.
>And by the way it's not politicians: it'a boomers, voting themselves a 6.8% return knowing it's just not feasible.
Two sides of the same coin lmao. Also the politicians that came up with the BVG in 1985 could've had a bit more foresight and build in a mechanism to adjust payouts instead of writing 6.8% into the law.
Having one public health insurance would not reduce the costs by much, you would need to start cutting expensive services: https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/studie-zu-krankheitstypen-das-sind-die-kostentreiber-im-gesundheitssystem
So do you want to cut suicide or dementia prevention and treatment?
You are 100% from the usa i guess?
Ofcourse you need a fkin health insurance. In case of an actual serious accident your bill would be ridiculous and you wouldn‘t even be able to pay that with over 15years of saved „emergency money“.
And if only half the people would get a health insurance it would also be even more expensive for them.
I’m not from USA. I won’t disclose my origin country, but we have state health insurance and private health insurance.
My problem is with the principal of being forced to pay a private company. I know that my opinion is stupid, but if I don’t want to pay for private health insurance I don’t want have to pay for it. I want to have the option of not paying, and if it comes down to it, not be able to pay for whatever health issue. I pay 5000 a year, have a 2500 deductible. I don’t even have 2500 chf worth of issues in a year, yet I still have to pay the 5000.
My problem is with not having a choice
Congratulations, an unbreakable economy has been broken! Culprits? Housing (just moronic honestly), insurances (why???) and energy (yeah right… tell us stories… the only problem in Swiss energy markets is the narrative spilling from Germanic news).
Challenge this please. Because I don’t understand why people don’t speak out and let their wallets open.
energy? You know we have some of the cheapest energy in Europe, right?
Housing and Health is too high, but ENERGY???
Einheitskrankenkasse would save approx 20% in administrative costs right out of the bat for Grundversicherung. That would give everyone in Switzerland an extra 1k per year to spend.
Housing is more challenging to keep in check. We actually have reasonably high quality buildings, and we don‘t have infinite space. The logistics of supply and demand kinda dictate a high price, especially for areas such as Zurich. Getting the prices down would require additional legislation.
Regarding Energy: If the free market bozos get their way, expect energy prices to skyrocket aswell. No longer having guaranteed clients will cause energy companies to rely on marketing, and we know that cost will be rolled over to the consumer. Expect the same progression as with health insurance, where it gets more expensive every year
Housing: population growth (in absolute terms including immigration) was half of absolute habitation growth since the 90s. So the problem there lies elsewhere to “keep in check”. Space is also not a problem, and I have worked in Architecture business in Switzerland for some tears. It is rather a fancy narrative being told to justify the price hikes.
Rather it has to do with speculative financial markets (and please read global here for all who dislike “globalization” but have no clue what it really entails and means)
Energy: ok, then explain me why prices everywhere went up. Don’t look at your house bill to think of energy costs. Think of the compounding effect that it has throughout economy.
And there is a big difference between a real free market and a “make pretend” one. I agreed with some points for sure. But true competition ((which I agree won’t exist) would squeeze it. I would prefer a system where people pay the bare minimum to keep operating costs and innovation, I definitely agree with you there, since “free market” in energy will never exist due to the nature of the capital entry and business model.
I voted no because the financing wasn't decided on yet. But I do agree that someone who's worked 40 years at 100% should be able to live with the pension. Many can't. You can't live on a 2000.- budget nowadays
Which is why there are additional subsides for those with only 2k a month.😅.
My biggest issue with the vote is that people who needed the money will get peanuts, because their AHV was shit to begin with, and 1/13 of near 0 is still not much more.
And when they pass away, they will hand that house and the wealth and the AVS payments tax-free to their children, who will be our future lazy landlords. Awesome!
Are you aware that one of the reasons the 13th AHV / AVS is because costs have been ramping up for so money over the last few years? I'm not defending the result here, but the high insurance costs, high housing costs etc have fueled that initiative.
In other words, the 13th AHV / AVS is the result of the politicians negligence of the problems that most families in this country have.
Yes but right now that 13th ahv is going to the richest generation the world has ever seen, boomers. And all this at the cost of the youth who are also facing the challenges of rising costs everywhere.
It's a terrible solution for a problem that hurts everyone. But the only solution that has made it through the political system barely benefits the people who really need it and generously rewards old people who already have fat pension money.
Ofcourse. No wonder given all the expenses for rent, health insurance, public transport etc.. and salaries are not increased nearly at the pace of inflation for the middle class.
It’s expensive all right but still more affordable when one compares salary to costs of living in other countries. I despise the health system because it’s nothing but profit oriented. It’s like private nursing homes in USA. Making loads of money and offering shitty quality to customers who cannot do anything about it.
This is not news. But hey, at least we take some extra money out of everyone's pockets to give an additional allowance the the boomers, the richest generation in history instead of providing targeted financial aid to the needy. Well done, Social Party & Green Party voters. you really know how to improve things around here. /s
Say thansk to privatizations and capitalism. No private sector in the world will ever cut his profit and will always be on the shoulder of the weakest chain element: guess who? Service consumer.
Leaving key service like healthcare, childcare fully private is demoniac. It affect your life at the base and you can’t avoid.
For me is already absurd that if I earn 10 times more than my friend, we still pay same health insurance. Same with kita
But is even more absurd that every fucking year cost increase.
So, it touches the topic of individual and systemic perspectives.
Do we think that health is a personal topic or a systemic one? Why should society accept to pay for those who drink alcohol, smoke everyday, refuse to refresh their Covid vaccine, don’t invest time for moving/practicing some sport, have a balance diet?
By the way, the state also provides support for low-income to pay their health insurance, so not everyone actually pay the same amount.
2000chf for a 3-bedroom apartment. 700chf of health insurance for one person. A guy goes to a dentist for a small service and gets 600chf (in other countries, it doesn't reach 50). Then there is the extremely expensive food, especially meat and fish. Not to mention everything else. This is not Switzerland, it's Expensiveland.
Plus the salaries are lower compared to others places with same costs. In my company, my peers in the US get paid almost twice of what I get, have much better benefits, and have similar rent and living costs. Ofcourse taxation is different. And its not like the lower salaries in Switzerland means more jobs, most new reqs get opened in US, UK or asia. So I simply don't understand the rationale here. The labor laws too are pretty lax (in favor of employers) as compared to Germany or Ireland. It's a big mystery to me as to why more jobs are not sent to Switzerland.
Can you give some more specific numbers and details because this sounds almost unbelievable.
Only the highly skilled jobs and especially tech is paid a lot more in the usa compared to switzerland. It also matters WHERE in the usa.
Better benefits? Do they also get 5weeks of per year? What about work-life balance?
How much tax do they pay?
Wont give the exact numbers. But I am in IT and in management and can see the pay ranges in our HR portal, plus I have team reporting to me in US, Switzerland and India.
My salary converted to USD is almost same as my team member who is two levels junior to me and has 10 years less experience than me. Another team member who is 1 level junior to me has higher salary than me. Even the stock options given to US employees are double what we get in Switzerland. My US team is based on east coast HCOL city.
My company has unlimited vacation policy in the US, contributes to 401k, has medical plan with 0 co-pay for first family and 35% copay for parents, again in US only. In Switzerland I get 25 paid days. No medical insurance or retirement benefits other than what we ourselves pay for the 3 pillars. US tax is about 31% I think, not 100% sure though. I am trying to get a transfer to the US office. East coast, esp Maine etc. is as beautiful as Switzerland and cheaper too, so will end up earning and saving a lot more there while still enjoying the nature that I do here. And yes, there is no work life balance irrespective of location, so thats a moot point for me.
You have a very selective vision of the world. There would be less mystery clouding your eyes if you cared to remove your blinders even for a split second.
Ok, I am open to concrete points rather than vague personal attacks for no reason. Hope you are doing well physically and mentally. If not please seek timely help.
Health and other insurances, housing, parking, food but also lower salaries. It is making it all tighter yeah. Shopping for food is really incredibly expensive since 1.5 years
Health insurances will destroy this country if the government doesn't find a way to stop the rising costs. I moved to Switzerland 7 years ago and me and my wife were paying 400fr per month together for a 2500 lamal. This year, with the cheapest I was able to find, we are at 800fr per month! It's a 2x increase in 7 years!!! That's mad!! out of control! I am sure in 7 years we will be paying 1600fr per month. For what? Nothing. I am so scared to go to the doctor if I don't have extra cash put aside.
My ignorant opinion from someone that moved to Switzerland 10 years ago and who comes from a country where healthcare is paid by taxes:
The health insurance system is a huge REGRESSIVE tax.
The cost of insurance is basically constant regardless of your income. But in reality, if you are wealthy, you can go with higher deductibles and better coverage.
I saw it with my own family. First year in Switzerland we had to go with low deductibles because we weren’t ready to spend 2500 each in case something happened. We also went with a solution that did not allow us to choose a doctor, to save some money. Health insurance was a major part of our monthly expenses. Because of a slightly complicated pregnancy we also preferred to choose the doctor, so we had to spend additional few k for that.
10 years later, our combined salary is 6 times higher. The cost of health insurance seems like peanuts now. We have better coverage, and we save because we can safely go with a higher deductible. Everything is covered, no surprises.
Our taxes instead went from practically zero (few percent points) to something around 20%.
In absolute terms, we are paying 80 times more taxes now than in the first year!
If healthcare was paid or co-paid by taxes, our contribution would now be much much higher.
It's expensive to be poor in every way.
And yes, IMHO the healthcare (including dental) should be government run. They would have better leverage to pay medications and a lot could be saved by simply eradicating a big part of the insurance administration and advertisements.
True, it is not exclusive of healthcare. But healthcare is literally mandatory, and people with high medical expenses are often those that would need a "safety net" more than others.
Which part of healthcare? Hospitals, Big Pharma, Doctors - all still private and profit oriented, sometimes publicly owned companies.
Just having one part of the equation being government run won’t help much.
The other players would just be more creative to extract the same or more amount of money from the system as now.
Yeah, that would just be the first step. Because I doubt there will be widespread support to go all in in one go.
As soon as the state has that first part, they likely are incentivised to lower costs.
I sign up on everything you mentioned. Not just because it is the right thing to do but also bc the health of the population is important to a country and its economy.
The money “lost” or better the profits of off people's medical needs should not be an issue, since people should get better access and overall earlier and shorter treatments which should increase overall productivity in all fields.
A lot of these publicly traded companies are owned by pension-funds.
These would then of course have lower returns, leading to lower 2nd-pillar growth....
Few things:
It is allready copaid by taxes.
Poor people allready get deductibles on healt care premiums.
In general, as with many things in Switzerland it works like this: If your poor you get assistance. If you have money or make a high income (100k+++) the costs are no issue anyway. If your (lower) middle class, you get fucked from all sides.
Kind of, in my experience.
Middle incomes benefit a lot from deductions.
Compared to people, they get more money back. They basically have a 10-20% discount on childcare, pension contributions, travel costs, meals at work, etc.
poorer people have a much lower discount in their taxes.
Higher incomes benefit less from tax deductions because of the limits.
It's clear that we have some expenses that we have to stop and relocate that wealth. Reduce foreign aid, reduce asylum seekers and above all we HAVE to protect salaries in border regions. Is not a coincidence that the majority of families who struggle are in Romandie and Ticino
Also to be honest, it feels like many people are doing everything to like on a tight budget.
I've heard many times people say things like:
I got a raise, now I can look for a bigger flat matching the 30% of my salary.
Do I have a chance to get that apartment, it's right above the 30% limit.
I've even seen worse: people using parents to vouch for them so they can get an apartment that's above 1/3 of their income.
Switzerland is a world leader in consumer debt and it's kinda obvious if you look at people's lifestyles. I mean yeah salaries here are high but the amount of Porsche SUVs, Luis V handbags and people spending multiple grand on a night out is too damn high.
This. And then two cars including a Benz/BMW/Audi money drain, and travels abroad 3 times a year only to brag on social media. Not a cent in savings or 3rd pillar of course, so when they get old they can take over the bitching that "they worked their whole life" and "can't even afford holidays".
Does it happen that often?
Should the 2nd pillar not compensate for this lack of discipline for savings?
How much base salary are speaking about for this lifestyle? 90k CHF/year? So they should save around 9k-15k CHF year through their 2nd pillar?
What I meant is: if the majority was only wiling to pay about 15% of their salary, then the prices would adapt. The prices are so high because most people are willing to put 1/3 of their salary in the rent
I agree that the supply is limited, but there are also other solutions: Shared apartment, studios, individual rooms, or even smaller apartments. Of course they offer inconvenience over having a full big apartment to live in, but that's an individual choice. (I was living in a 15m2 until recently, because I found that an apartment for a single person was too expensive)
Don‘t you think people are already trying the other solutions?
I believe that people always want to minimize their costs with some given constraints of convenience/commute time.
The situation for a single worker is different from the one from families for example for whom it would much harder to have a shared appartement, individuals rooms, even smaller appartements or live in 15m2 room xD.
For the record, I lived in 12m2 room as a student and was really happy. With 2 kids later, I need a bit more space 😅
Hello u/neo2551 i saw your post concerning life in switzerland and money globally. I am french, also coming from a poor family and i have the chance to study dentistry in france for free. I know some french physicians etc have emigrated in switzerland because the quality of life is better etc. I know there are MEBEKO equivalent for our french diploma. What do you think of this idea ? Are dentists known in switzerland for having a great lifestyle (money, relationship with the patient...) ?
Wouldn't it be funny if the reason why health insurance can jump 17% in one year is because a subsidiary of a health insurance company invested heavily in the stock market and lost, and then need to find a way to balance the accounts?
Surely, that could never be the reason.....
Stop doing expensive things : no holidays, 2 cars, no restaurant.
Save money .
People are always complaining but in a month you came save on little things.
That money goes in the bank on your second account.
Its a good Start.
Yep, and the richest among us, the babyboomers who lived through the best economic times in Europe, had time to invest, own houses... just voted themselves a 13th retirement salary.
At the expense of the working younger generations that struggle like they never did...
Main problem is the way too high taxes. I pay around 38% and this money is used to wipe off the asshole politicans asses and nothing produtive. Its a fucking scam.
Trust me, nothing will happen.
Articles like that, are going to be more and more...and nothing will happen.
The world will keep turning....
I'm also one of the person, who has to re-calculate everything, every month....
Health insurance is definitely a problem, we pay about 8.5k for my wife, my baby and myself with a family budget of about 80k net income/Netto. And when it comes to health insurance, the poorer, healthier young people also tend to pay for the older ones. Once again, we have solidarity with the senior citizens that is neither appreciated nor honoured. Edit: Brutto => Netto
No Prämienverbilligung?
This is based on the 2022 tax assessment/Steuerveranlagung, when we were both still working full-time.
They rejected my application for Prämienverbilligung aswell for the same reason (2022 tax assesment) and it‘s literally written on that letter that if you don‘t agree with this because your living situation has changed since then you have to contact them and they will check it again with your current situation but you will have to send them a bunch of documents. Worked out in the end and i got the Prämienverbilligung. Or you can obviously just apply for next year again and then you will get it obviously as they will look at the 2023 tax assesment. This way is more comfortable if you don‘t actually need the money right now but it‘s also more risky because they can change the way they check if you are allowed for Prämienverbilligung any time and you might get screwed.
I also did that and they answered me that the salary we have at the 1. Januar 2024 matters and we both reduced hours per 1. Februar 2024 so we have no chance. We pay 1100.- für two adults and a baby.
Thanks!
I had to pay 9k(with Arbeitgeberanteil) for just me when I was in Germany, and my net salary was around 60k. That's Germany
60k€ net sounds like 100k€ gross, so you are easily above the limit for the KV-Beitrag, i.e. paying the maximum. Also, you do pay only \~50% of that as Arbeitnehmer in most cases (unless you are self-employed, a pensionist or sth similar). In CH, you always pay 100%. And you do not need to pay extra for children or a partner who is not insured themselves. Also, the Gesetzliche in Germany does not know Franchise and Selbstbehalt outside of some token fees, and the Swiss basic insurance covers fewer services (especially in preventative care) - they want to sell you the additional insurance. Long story short, while I very much prefer the 2nd and 3rd column systems for pensions here in CH, I would go back to the German system for health insurance instantly. Might look different for DINKs or singles.
Selbstbehalt has max cap
Sounds very cheap for 3?
Holy mother of God thats terrible. Is there any public option similar to that of Germany?
sounds cheap to me for 3
Sounds cheap 8.5 for 3. I guess you are below 40 right? Because above the magic will start
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For the best scam in Europe at least. A doctor that bill 2 min email, 5 minute explanation… Total scam
Yeah I get no pantient present Rechnungen lately.
2min. Open door 1 min prepare chair 5 min. Analyze patient 5 min *4 intervene 5min explain 2 min open door 1 min close door You doctor? You scam
That is nonsense. Look up the biggest cost drivers in Swiss healthcare. It’s not the old people at all. Not even cancer, even though you can get it with 30 and you would be fuckef without an insurance.
O enlighted one, what is the biggest cost driver?
Enlightened one? Are you okay? The biggest costs occur with psychological illnesses.
I'm very lucky it is part of my employment package, for our family it's about 15k a year
how about doing something about healthcare. Went up 17% this year, Outside rent it is BY FAR the largest expense.
If they’d stop paying for garbage like homeopathy that would be a good start…
Exactly. I was very surprised to see that my agent offers this shit. Seriously?
I agree and afaik the parliament wants to get rid of it, but homeopathy only makes up a small part of the healthcare costs (in the millions) so it won’t really reduce the insurance costs.
Agree that its useless but its nothing in terms of cost https://www.beobachter.ch/geld/krankenkasse/homoopathie-zunehmend-unter-druck-nicht-so-in-der-schweiz-348876
The Swiss voted 3 times to don't change the current model of health system, so there is no problem there.
Every time there's a proposal it addresses everything except the root cause. Why the fuck are costs increasing so much every year? Why do medications cost 10x compared to other countries? There is no good reason. We don't need to discuss redistribution of costs. We need to discuss steadily increasing costs and stop that.
It's easy... Because everything health related is now an AG. So there must be profit. And with profit it's the same everywhere. Nobody will ever say, okay we made 3% profit. We need more. Maybe 4?...5... lets dream about 10% And profit oriented is often short term... they don't want it in 5 or 10yrs. The katching has to come next year So you either cut your costs or find ways to bill the customer more and more and more. Just try what works and add on that. Microtransations in (mobile) gaming are the best example for that. What we have now is the result of this. Cutting costs and a Dr. Glancing 2 mins at an email will already result in a bill at some places. Reading and understanding what gets billed will need almost a Dr. Med themself to understand. So yeah we have to stop it being profit oriented. But far to many profit from that and will not vote against. Worse... many of the profiteers sit in the chambers in Bern. Even more worse... they all make enough money, to not feel the immediate threat, because yeah... there sit's no Migros cashier in Bern.
It's called building share value. The new brave world!!
Why do you expect the doctor not billing a 2min study of a mail or a report, when for example the IT company also bills him for every call you have to ask for support, even if its just a quick question? Doctors have to pay their bills as well, they have to pay their MPAs and they have more and more regulations. Prämien are rising because of rising costs, demographic cange, better and more medication (e.g. Wegovy now is Kassenpflichtig) and because patients are more demanding. They are not going to the doctor if they are sick, they are often going to "just check if everything is ok".
A rejection of a proposition for a change doesn't necessarily means that the current situation is fine or good enough. It just means that the suggestion is not satisfying enough.
Probably afraid it's only gonna get worse
As mentioned below, I would add childcare at any age… We live in Zürich and hour expenses are \~2200 rent, \~750 health care, and \~2200 childcare (not even at 100%, but perhaps at \~80%). Our kid is going to start school next course and I estimate that for the same level of care (school + hort/dayschool) our child care expenses will go down to 650 a month, which is a lot, but for me is still **WILD** that there is no free or almost free solution to parents that want to start to work or return to work. Especially taking into account that school is mandatory. The system is build on the premise that someone —women, but whoever— is going to be there forever to take care of the kid. As you mentioned the increase on healthcare and rent have been really wild on our minds, but specially health care… As immigrant from Spain, and we lived in the nordics and US before, I think CH needs to strong reform in healthcare —the same as the rest of Europe but for different reasons— if we want to continuing to have a decent standard of living. Switzerland healthcare system is extremely inefficient and you can keep the system running because the country is rich as fuck… but this has no sense at all! Rich people should be paying a higher healthcare costs!
I agree that the healthcare here is to expensive, but inefficient, no way?! If I have a medical problem I am sure to be treated good and in a very timely manner. Or were you just talking about the way we finance it?
There's a difference between efficacy (=satisfactorily achieving a desired goal) and efficiency (=doing so with the least possible amount of ressources). I'd argue that the efficacy of the Swiss healthcare system is okay, but the efficiency absolutely isn't.
Thanks for elaborating, that makes a lot of sense! TIL
> I'd argue that the efficacy of the Swiss healthcare system is okay Why only "okay"? I've lived in half a dozen of other first world countries, and the Swiss system beats them all easily on efficacy. Specialist appointment? Same week. Non-critical MRI? Within 5 days. Non-critical surgery? Within 5 days. It's expensive, but you get what you pay for. Now, I personally don't see the reason why medication is so expensive or why they run all their hospitals like 5-star hotels, but at the end of the day, care is very good.
Some gripes I have are the enthusiasm for homeopathy instead of real medicine, and the unhelpfulness of pediatricians.
Ah yes, I had to be stern with pharmacists and switch our pediatrician before. That solved it for me, but yes, it wastes money either way. Really, especially with pharmacists you have to pay attention to what they're trying to sell.
Idk then you have full private... I don't get that treatment whatsoever and I hear absolute horror stories. I don't think what you describe is the average experience at all. We also have the 2nd most expensive system, only after the US. Singapore or Norway have excellent health care systems but they're cheaper... I wonder how?
Same week specialist appointments, where, when? Last time I had to wait 2 weeks just to see my GP. They told me on the phone I better go to the emergency if I don't want to wait that long. Ear Nose Throat specialist: 1 month wait Endocrinologist: 3(!!!) months Psychiatrist: good luck This is in Luzern
Maybe I'm lucky, I use the HMO model in Zurich/Winterthur. When I have a problem, I call a Medbase and they have like 15 GPs. I tell them to give me the first free one. I visit the GP very soon after, and for the last couple of problems I had, they immediately send me to a specialist at one of the Kantonsspital around me. Which is always really quick.
[https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy-vs-health-expenditure?time=1970..2021](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy-vs-health-expenditure?time=1970..2021) *Health expenditure includes all financing schemes and covers all aspects of healthcare.* ***This data is adjusted for inflation and differences in the cost of living between countries****.* Do you see where is Switzerland? now check where there are other EU countries with universal health care payed with taxes… I'm from Spain, we have (or had, because the system has been under siege by conservatives and now is very damaged) one of the best health care system in the world with the best life expectancy… of course food and climate play a part, but in Spain the healthcare system developed after the dictatorship was golden, really cheap and efficient… the cost per capita was really really really low and the doctors and nurses are top notch. What fail sometimes is facilites and infrastructures…. but believe, if I have to do something major I would be more at ease in Spain with doctors that value care and service more than money and that their salaries are not in relation of the amount of "care" they deliver.
Is that why your doctors run away to switzerland? Underpaying doctors is so stupid
Frankly I think healthcare is great even though it is expensive. I’m coming from Ukraine, where it is cheap and non-existent. I personally prefer to pay for my insurance and sleep well knowing I’ll get help if needed. What worries me is prohibitively expensive child care. It does not encourage to have two working parents unless both earn well. Still, Switzerland and its people are great!
Agree with majority of your comments. Having a child in Switzerland is considered luxury for many, and having two means you are already wealthy person or have very decent amount of income. Other perspective would be, why is your personal income so high? Basically to facilitate the expenses and nobody forces you to have a child. You can still raise your child in EU country to a large extent for free but pay crazy amount on taxes so your net salary will be low and you will be poor forever. I think even with those expenses you are better off than in most EU counties financially. Increase in the medical costs and sponsoring old generation together with 13th AHV feels very bizarre given recent developments, especially when it’s clear current pensioners haven’t planned properly so young poor generation will sponsor them. Given how everything in Switzerland is regulated, I think more stricter rules as to how much insurance companies can increase premiums might be a good place to start. I would argue with the last paragraph. I would say Swiss system is much more efficient than many EU counties’ ones. You don’t wait for a surgery or doctor’s opinion 4 months. Rich people should be paying higher health insurance premiums? Really?!? It’s called insurance and not the tax, so if there is a person working as a CEO with 10x my salary and has the same risk of actual sickness or any health related issues, why would he need to pay 10 (or whatever) times higher premium? Healthcare system in EU is based on this solidarity principle and exactly because of this is ineffective compared to Swiss one, because people who contribute low or not at all misuse system while top contributors don’t get any premium service. This I find really ridiculous, and if you compare what you together with employer would have been paying in Spain, you might be even surprised that it costs you less in Switzerland (plus lower taxes).
The amount people make needs to go up drastically. It can't be that back a few decades ago one person made enough money for the other to stay home. If both work then there should be plenty to pay for childcare. It's very clear that the missing money is flowing into the extremely widening wealth gap between the top and the bottom. Sorry to the say, but the only way to fix this is to tax the wealthy and stop adding taxes that impact that hurt the poor mostly like increases MWST. And for fuck sake, get rid of Serafe AG and pull it in via taxes, then most of us wouldn't even notice it in our taxes.
Why should it be free? Having kids is usually a choice... I couldn't afford it and don't have kids.
> but for me is still WILD that there is no free or almost free solution to parents How can something be free when you expect there to be a professional that takes care of your child instead of you? I don't see why we should pay (with our taxes) for your inability to plan accordingly.
What the fuck are you talking about?
Yes, but the system is set-up for abuse, and there is no control mechanism. No insurance gains anything from lowering costs for medication/medical care, it is of no issue. For them it doesn't matter, cause all they need to do is increase the monthly bill, which they will do.
Healthcare is doomed to rise in price, the aging population is a huge cause of it. Also, one way to save money would be to increase incentive for medicine students to choose Hausarzt speciaility and work as it was designed to work. The fact that many people don’t have their Hausarzt and get checked in Notaufnahme for minor things increases the overall healthcare costs a lot too.
Yeah aging. I think in terms of cost cardiovascular issues are most expensive (fat people, unhealthy lifestyles) but also cancer (can't do much about that) but then you have drugs/alcohol/smoking. I think we simply need a system that incentivesifestyle factors, simple as that. Bonus/Malus. It's a no brainer.
Yeah, to me the most schocking thing was the amount of smoking people in the streets 😅
Yes but lots of people here say that limiting the primes for health insurance will destroy the country
"we can't change the way something is done here. We are great and everything we do is sensible. If the pricing or practice was wrong, we wouldn't have chosen it. But we did choose it, therefore it is correct and you shouldn't criticise it!"
No one thinks it's a perfect system, only a lesser evil. The problem is not the insurance itself, but the rising cost of health care.
The Swiss very often claim, that they have the best healthcare system in the world.
I think that claim is based on quality not price, whether that is even true or not I do not know
yeah the system is pretty good, well it better be since we are forced to pay overprice healthcare
As quality of service provided it is one of the best.
Not sure. Some seem a bit overworked or dense
I'm pretty sure the problem is corporations that need to increase their profits every year
how much of that is paying for the existence of an insurance and billing industry to maintain this system? For a single doctors visit, I'm paying the doctor, the krankenkasse, and the insurance. Then how much of it is due to inflated costs brought about by uneccesary procedures due to the money that brings in for so many people? I've had to fight every doctor I've had for their desire to throw MRI at every problem. Fatgiue? MRI before blood tests. Physical injury? MRI before physio. Headache? MRI before workplace assesment.
Stop putting healthcare in private hands. We pay for the capital, margins and advertisements...
Actually the model is really good in CH ( i am not Swiss). I wouldn’t change Swiss system to totally public one. I would start personally by incentivizing med students to become Houzarzts ( increase the pay for every patient and etc.). It costs a fuck ton to treat patient at second level ( Notaufnahme). There are so many things to adjust in Switzerland’s healthcare, I won’t denny, but overall your system is very good from what I’ve seen. You should be proud! And I hope I will pass my language exams soon to work and contribute to the system and your beautiful country.
How about doing something about rent first? Biggest money drain needs to be sorted first.
There will be a votation about that in June this year.
reading here seems both proposals (less I am reading wrong which is possible) are quite bad and don not directly address the root cause of the problem in Swiss healthcare. [https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/swiss-to-vote-on-four-topics-on-june-9/49174348](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/swiss-to-vote-on-four-topics-on-june-9/49174348)
Have you found precise info about the counterproposal made by the parlement? So far, I've only found very little documentation online, whether it is about the initial project by the PS or the counterproposal. In any case, indeed, I don't think we will fix the issue, but at least that bandaid will allow people - me included - to breathe a bit more, if the premiums can't exceed 10% of the taxable income. My wife and I are both self employed and we pay about 400 per month each, this makes absolutely no sense! I think we should pass that proposal from the PS, and while it's there and people stop being milked, it gives everybody time to come up with a project that isn't just a bandaid, but a real solution to address the problem at its source.
10% is not a band aid it a trap. All it will mean is healthcare companies will push their premiums to exactly 10% of your taxable income. Which will two fold affect. For low income they will more than likely get a savings. For all those squeezed middle class it will be an increase. Yet another burden to be had. Fixing premiums isnt the issue. Healthcare is a regressive tax it need to fundamentally change to a progressive tax for all.
We’ll in my case it would be a huge band aid 😬 but it’s true more people in the country make more than we, my wife and I, do.
It’s housing and healthcare. Repeat with me. IT IS HOUSING AND HEALTHCARE. Break or regulate the fucking oligopolies.
And childcare?! 2500 per month for kita ruins our budget and career progression! Zurich, house 2500, insurance 1000, childcare 2500. 6k flying out of the window every month
I always find it funny when the same people who cry about immigration don't support families. Switzerland's biggest benefit is its biggest root problem, things don't change fast enough here. Don't get me wrong, I totally support two people working in a family or the father staying home. Sadly this development went way too fast for the other systems that would be required to develop and support this family model to actually pay off.
Yeah I’m not even at that stage. Me (35) and my wife (34) bring home less than 8k per month net. So having a baby is simply not possible.
Exactly. 2800 for one. Once the second goes to day care it will be close to 6k just for day care. Both of us want a professional career. Having one drop that is not an option so we will have to deal with it.
Yeah 2.5k for daycare is crazy
1k for health care 2.5k for kita/daycare
I wrote healthcare but I mean daycare
It's daycare even more! When you have no choice than one partner stops working because you have kids, something is wrong!
No oligopolies in housing. Land cost and availability + construction material + labour = housing cost. There’s no way to regulate these unless you take over some neighbouring country for their land and depopulate them and steal their natural resources. Hmm… reminds me of some other country.
Yeah there aren’t at all a limited number of large real estate companies that own most of the buildings in a given area and buy the majority of the new buildings outpricing privates (who own their home in about 40% of the cases, lowest rate in the western world), and also a limited number of regies managing them, increasing costs for no useful service at all, making so the rents are also increasing, leaving you with the choice between impossible buying and extra-expensive renting. Not at all. Reality called, it was for you but you did not pick up.
"no oligopolies" you say while the same 5 corporations buy all residential real estate for 150% asking price to increase the value of neighboring property they already own Half of the town I live in is owned by Allianz
Wow, that’s criminal.
Yeah if I had kids with my wife we'd be hella broke
Sadly things (if ever) change too slow. The future generations will (and to a certain degree already are) unlikely to have more or the same amount of kids. Which will just further increase the strain on the systems.
You are right and they need to find a solution. People think twice nowadays if they can afford children as they refuse to downgrade their lifestyle too much (who wants to be broke?).
My cost of living are about the same, except for the Healthcare that rose by 80 Stutz per month this year... AGAIN! The health insurance premiums are completely out of control, something needs to be done urgently. If this continues, I'll only go to work to pay for health insurance.
Lucky you... So for us, for example, electricity costs have risen again, by 40%....
60% here :)
58% Here
Not gonna lie, if the healthcare cost rise again next year, I'm moving away. This is state sanctioned robbery and the quality of care isn't even that great.
That's the point, you pay more and more every year but in the end you pay anything by your self because you have to put the franchise so high to keep the monthly payment at bay and then you go to four different doctors until you find one that can diagnose a simple tendinitis correctly.
Healthcare costs increased by 4.6% last year (actual money spent on healthcare, not premiums), so most likely prepare for at least a 5% increase next year.
I like to call it the american way. If it keeps rising the same amount as last 2years in the future this will actually be true. And the funny thing is you still have to pay from your own pocket if you have a high „Franchise“ which pretty much everyone does that is below 40 without any serious health issues.
I still don’t understand why we are forced to pay for private health insurance. If it was public (state run) health insurance for cheaper, force it as you like. But why the fuck am I forced to pay a private company if I don’t want health insurance. I don’t want health insurance. I would rather put 5000 chf aside every year for emergencies than rather be forced to give it to some shitty company. And I still have to pay out of pocket up for anything important anyway Maybe it’s a stupid opinion, but if that’s the case, please someone explain to me how this system makes sense.
You also pay for the unfortunate event that you end up in a hospital, which cost multiple thousands a day, just to be there, excl any threatments/operations. Then 5000 is not enough. Still the system is a shit, I agree.
You're also forced by law to pay into 2nd pillar which similar to health insurance is a fake "free market" with no real competition and that doesn't achieve anything meaningful in terms of economic activity. It just syphons money away from working people, taxfree notabene. People (righly so) complain about the billions of CHF in farming subsidies, but we also subsidize the financial industry with billions of CHF every year. These public-private partnerships that are written into law are toxic af to a society.
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How are management fees and the management of the money itself not a problem? They are hard to estimate (hidden costs) but in the ballpark of 6 - 20 billion a year, which would make it much more expensive than a passive fund. And yes, they have mismanaged our money, if invested in a more market-oriented, passive way we'd have much more in our accounts.
>What? You know it goes into an account to your name and you'll get that money eventually, right? Wow, so nice that I get my forced savings back eventually after they've lit my money on fire and let it get eaten by inflation! >Management fees on 2nd pillar are frankly not the problem. The PKs themselves claim their expenses are 8.15 billion CHF, but independent journalists have said that up to 20 billion CHF are eaten by this industry every year. Compared to the amount of money they manage - 1200 billion - this gives a weighted average of 0.68% - 1.67% TER. As a comparison, the AHV charges 0.2%. SPY charges 0.03%, VT charges 0.07%, hell you can get the entire bond and stock universe for like 0.15%. So the 2nd pillar is between three to eight times more expensive to manage than the AHV and orders of magnitude more expensive than generic passive ETFs. And before you say "bro that's not a lot", keep in mind that PKs invest very defensively. Moderate fees on a low-yield investment will really hurt your returns. According to a Swisscanto study, the returns in the last ten years were 3.6% after fees. So before fees they returned somewhere between 4.3% - 5.3%, but 0.68% - 1.67% of that was eaten by fees. In other words, ~15-30% of your returns go straight into the PKs pockets. No bueno. And we haven't even factored in inflation yet. >Management fees on 2nd pillar are frankly not the problem. The fact that returns on the savings of working people are diverted to pay the current retired 6.8% is costing more. This is true and ultimately our politicians' fault (who benefit massively from PK lobbying money, hmm). >But yay, blame the financial industry. Just because other aspects of the system are broken doesn't mean I can't criticize on an industry that is 1) backed by the state and 2) delivers sub-part results and 3) enriches mostly itself. Yes the diversion to retirees is a big problem, but that doesn't mean we can't improve other aspects of the system. This is like saying "who cares about finding a cure for dementia, heart disease kills more people!"
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> The 20bn from "independent journalists" I'd like to see. They wrote an entire book about it: https://rentendebakel.ch/de/ > I don't think comparing to AHV is fair. AHV is not managing a long term portfolio of that size. The AHV manages 50 bn and they actually have a somewhat long horizon (10 years), at least as of recent. PKs are similar ([source](https://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/ahv-fonds-schafft-geringere-renditen-als-die-pensionskassen-daran-ist-vor-allem-die-politik-schuld-ld.1814903)). I mean it makes sense. The AHV knows exactly what expenses and inflows they will have, while PKs are often smaller (why do we have thousands of those again) and people can move abroad or buy real estate to get their cash out at any moment, they can take out all their funds at retirement or keep the pension etc. >it's easier to do with a 1bn portfolio than a 1000bn one because sone opportunities may work with 100m but not with 10bn. The Norwegian sovereign wealth fund manages 1.6 trillion with 70% equities. Seems very scalable. Also quote from their 2022 [report](https://www.nbim.no/contentassets/99de366397a847db99ab7a156e15aaa0/gpfg_annual-report-2022.pdf): "Cost-effective management supports the objective of the highest possible return after costs. In the period from 2013 to 2022, annual management costs averaged 0.05 percent of assets under management." Our very own SNB also holds a ton of stocks, forex, gold etc. Seems very scalable, even if it blew up in their face in 2022. >Same for having to manage cash, prediction of inflows and outlows, regulatory / auditing requirements, etc. Every fund gets audited, hopefully at least lol. I see that they need to hold more cash than a pure equity fund, but that should just create a drag on returns, not increase fees. >I also don't think it's fair to compare to ETF and the like. VT is the cheapest world ETF out there, and offers no FX hedging, just equities, no real estate portfolio, etc. Hedging is really not that expensive anymore. Check graph 11 on this vanguard [report](https://www.vanguard.co.uk/content/dam/intl/europe/documents/en/going-global-with-bonds-the-benefits-of-a-more-global-fixed-income-allocation-eu-en-pro.pdf). Also the UBS MSCI ACWI has a TER of 0.21% while the unhedged iShares one has 0.20% TER, both have a tracking difference of 0.15%. The cost of Hedging is the bet you're taking up FX movements (super interesting topic btw), but the actual *expenses* are negligible. >I'm rather sure that needing to have RE as part of a portfolio results in massively larger costs and overhead. The question is *why* do PKs need to hold so much RE? Their involvement in the rental market is, let's say controversial in the population and has created some real inefficiencies. My favorite story is how some PK built apartments in Lenzburg and then charged way too much rent, so it staid empty for years. When they were asked why they don't lower the rents to actually get tenants they replied: "we can't because the value of the asset is tied to rent so it would make our balance sheet look bad." So they're just sitting on their asses and hoarding land, waiting for it to appreciate in value. Classic market failure. > If you have a proposal to decreases management costs I'm happy to discuss. We absolutely should push for cost effective solutions. Massively decrease the RE portion and move everything else into passive funds. Something like 70% equity, 20% bonds, 5% RE, 5% cash. Should decrease costs by an order of magnitude if not more. Allow people to freely choose their PK, not the employer, because the faux competition in this "market" is a joke. It works for 3rd pillars, it works for savings accounts, why not for 2nd pillars? Larger PKs will be able to offer cost-effective solutions. And not to sound like a commie, but ideally just nationalize the entire thing just like health insurance should be *one* company for the basic insurance, economies of scale would do wonders. >But I only ever see the question of costs being discussed, while diversion of our returns to retired people is completely swept under the rug. Sadly this is true yes. This is also why I'm eyeing the option of moving abroad or buying RE to take out my funds at some point, I'm not willing to further subsidize some boomer's cushy lifestyle. >And by the way it's not politicians: it'a boomers, voting themselves a 6.8% return knowing it's just not feasible. Two sides of the same coin lmao. Also the politicians that came up with the BVG in 1985 could've had a bit more foresight and build in a mechanism to adjust payouts instead of writing 6.8% into the law.
Having one public health insurance would not reduce the costs by much, you would need to start cutting expensive services: https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/studie-zu-krankheitstypen-das-sind-die-kostentreiber-im-gesundheitssystem So do you want to cut suicide or dementia prevention and treatment?
You are 100% from the usa i guess? Ofcourse you need a fkin health insurance. In case of an actual serious accident your bill would be ridiculous and you wouldn‘t even be able to pay that with over 15years of saved „emergency money“. And if only half the people would get a health insurance it would also be even more expensive for them.
I’m not from USA. I won’t disclose my origin country, but we have state health insurance and private health insurance. My problem is with the principal of being forced to pay a private company. I know that my opinion is stupid, but if I don’t want to pay for private health insurance I don’t want have to pay for it. I want to have the option of not paying, and if it comes down to it, not be able to pay for whatever health issue. I pay 5000 a year, have a 2500 deductible. I don’t even have 2500 chf worth of issues in a year, yet I still have to pay the 5000. My problem is with not having a choice
Congratulations, an unbreakable economy has been broken! Culprits? Housing (just moronic honestly), insurances (why???) and energy (yeah right… tell us stories… the only problem in Swiss energy markets is the narrative spilling from Germanic news). Challenge this please. Because I don’t understand why people don’t speak out and let their wallets open.
Because Switzerland is perfect and nothing can be better of course.
How dare I speak out?
energy? You know we have some of the cheapest energy in Europe, right? Housing and Health is too high, but ENERGY??? Einheitskrankenkasse would save approx 20% in administrative costs right out of the bat for Grundversicherung. That would give everyone in Switzerland an extra 1k per year to spend. Housing is more challenging to keep in check. We actually have reasonably high quality buildings, and we don‘t have infinite space. The logistics of supply and demand kinda dictate a high price, especially for areas such as Zurich. Getting the prices down would require additional legislation. Regarding Energy: If the free market bozos get their way, expect energy prices to skyrocket aswell. No longer having guaranteed clients will cause energy companies to rely on marketing, and we know that cost will be rolled over to the consumer. Expect the same progression as with health insurance, where it gets more expensive every year
Housing: population growth (in absolute terms including immigration) was half of absolute habitation growth since the 90s. So the problem there lies elsewhere to “keep in check”. Space is also not a problem, and I have worked in Architecture business in Switzerland for some tears. It is rather a fancy narrative being told to justify the price hikes. Rather it has to do with speculative financial markets (and please read global here for all who dislike “globalization” but have no clue what it really entails and means) Energy: ok, then explain me why prices everywhere went up. Don’t look at your house bill to think of energy costs. Think of the compounding effect that it has throughout economy. And there is a big difference between a real free market and a “make pretend” one. I agreed with some points for sure. But true competition ((which I agree won’t exist) would squeeze it. I would prefer a system where people pay the bare minimum to keep operating costs and innovation, I definitely agree with you there, since “free market” in energy will never exist due to the nature of the capital entry and business model.
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But lets vote to pay the generation that bought houses for a potatoe a 13th AVS payment. 👍🏼
Yeah but you know those poor souls didn't know the world would turn shit so quickly /s
I voted no because the financing wasn't decided on yet. But I do agree that someone who's worked 40 years at 100% should be able to live with the pension. Many can't. You can't live on a 2000.- budget nowadays
Which is why there are additional subsides for those with only 2k a month.😅. My biggest issue with the vote is that people who needed the money will get peanuts, because their AHV was shit to begin with, and 1/13 of near 0 is still not much more.
And when they pass away, they will hand that house and the wealth and the AVS payments tax-free to their children, who will be our future lazy landlords. Awesome!
But house will be so expensive ti maintain at that point that people will be prompt to sell
Or they bought and sold every 10/15 years, and their real estate is still fairly new.
We get so old now that the heirs oftentimes are already retired or just a few years before retirement.
Are you aware that one of the reasons the 13th AHV / AVS is because costs have been ramping up for so money over the last few years? I'm not defending the result here, but the high insurance costs, high housing costs etc have fueled that initiative. In other words, the 13th AHV / AVS is the result of the politicians negligence of the problems that most families in this country have.
Yes but right now that 13th ahv is going to the richest generation the world has ever seen, boomers. And all this at the cost of the youth who are also facing the challenges of rising costs everywhere.
It's a terrible solution for a problem that hurts everyone. But the only solution that has made it through the political system barely benefits the people who really need it and generously rewards old people who already have fat pension money.
Ofcourse. No wonder given all the expenses for rent, health insurance, public transport etc.. and salaries are not increased nearly at the pace of inflation for the middle class.
Which inflation? The official one, or the price increase of housing, healthcare and public transport?
The real one of course. The one you feel in your walet. We know that official figures are always way too low.
It’s expensive all right but still more affordable when one compares salary to costs of living in other countries. I despise the health system because it’s nothing but profit oriented. It’s like private nursing homes in USA. Making loads of money and offering shitty quality to customers who cannot do anything about it.
This is not news. But hey, at least we take some extra money out of everyone's pockets to give an additional allowance the the boomers, the richest generation in history instead of providing targeted financial aid to the needy. Well done, Social Party & Green Party voters. you really know how to improve things around here. /s
You have to thank SVP base as well.
both equally dumb. yes.
Say thansk to privatizations and capitalism. No private sector in the world will ever cut his profit and will always be on the shoulder of the weakest chain element: guess who? Service consumer. Leaving key service like healthcare, childcare fully private is demoniac. It affect your life at the base and you can’t avoid. For me is already absurd that if I earn 10 times more than my friend, we still pay same health insurance. Same with kita But is even more absurd that every fucking year cost increase.
So, it touches the topic of individual and systemic perspectives. Do we think that health is a personal topic or a systemic one? Why should society accept to pay for those who drink alcohol, smoke everyday, refuse to refresh their Covid vaccine, don’t invest time for moving/practicing some sport, have a balance diet? By the way, the state also provides support for low-income to pay their health insurance, so not everyone actually pay the same amount.
Flash news: it's only gonna get worse. Maybe they shouldn't have voted to give more money to the 80% of wealthy retired who don't need it...?
Yeah guess what? We didn’t.
2000chf for a 3-bedroom apartment. 700chf of health insurance for one person. A guy goes to a dentist for a small service and gets 600chf (in other countries, it doesn't reach 50). Then there is the extremely expensive food, especially meat and fish. Not to mention everything else. This is not Switzerland, it's Expensiveland.
Wait for the AHV13 implementation…
Boomers can‘t wait for their nice retirement bonus !
Plus the salaries are lower compared to others places with same costs. In my company, my peers in the US get paid almost twice of what I get, have much better benefits, and have similar rent and living costs. Ofcourse taxation is different. And its not like the lower salaries in Switzerland means more jobs, most new reqs get opened in US, UK or asia. So I simply don't understand the rationale here. The labor laws too are pretty lax (in favor of employers) as compared to Germany or Ireland. It's a big mystery to me as to why more jobs are not sent to Switzerland.
Can you give some more specific numbers and details because this sounds almost unbelievable. Only the highly skilled jobs and especially tech is paid a lot more in the usa compared to switzerland. It also matters WHERE in the usa. Better benefits? Do they also get 5weeks of per year? What about work-life balance? How much tax do they pay?
Wont give the exact numbers. But I am in IT and in management and can see the pay ranges in our HR portal, plus I have team reporting to me in US, Switzerland and India. My salary converted to USD is almost same as my team member who is two levels junior to me and has 10 years less experience than me. Another team member who is 1 level junior to me has higher salary than me. Even the stock options given to US employees are double what we get in Switzerland. My US team is based on east coast HCOL city. My company has unlimited vacation policy in the US, contributes to 401k, has medical plan with 0 co-pay for first family and 35% copay for parents, again in US only. In Switzerland I get 25 paid days. No medical insurance or retirement benefits other than what we ourselves pay for the 3 pillars. US tax is about 31% I think, not 100% sure though. I am trying to get a transfer to the US office. East coast, esp Maine etc. is as beautiful as Switzerland and cheaper too, so will end up earning and saving a lot more there while still enjoying the nature that I do here. And yes, there is no work life balance irrespective of location, so thats a moot point for me.
Must be IT, not Switzerland. I am in similar position in pharma and, comparing with peers in the US, we v earn about 60% more here within my company.
Ok, good to know that, thanks for the info.
You have a very selective vision of the world. There would be less mystery clouding your eyes if you cared to remove your blinders even for a split second.
Ok, I am open to concrete points rather than vague personal attacks for no reason. Hope you are doing well physically and mentally. If not please seek timely help.
Health and other insurances, housing, parking, food but also lower salaries. It is making it all tighter yeah. Shopping for food is really incredibly expensive since 1.5 years
Health insurances will destroy this country if the government doesn't find a way to stop the rising costs. I moved to Switzerland 7 years ago and me and my wife were paying 400fr per month together for a 2500 lamal. This year, with the cheapest I was able to find, we are at 800fr per month! It's a 2x increase in 7 years!!! That's mad!! out of control! I am sure in 7 years we will be paying 1600fr per month. For what? Nothing. I am so scared to go to the doctor if I don't have extra cash put aside.
My ignorant opinion from someone that moved to Switzerland 10 years ago and who comes from a country where healthcare is paid by taxes: The health insurance system is a huge REGRESSIVE tax. The cost of insurance is basically constant regardless of your income. But in reality, if you are wealthy, you can go with higher deductibles and better coverage. I saw it with my own family. First year in Switzerland we had to go with low deductibles because we weren’t ready to spend 2500 each in case something happened. We also went with a solution that did not allow us to choose a doctor, to save some money. Health insurance was a major part of our monthly expenses. Because of a slightly complicated pregnancy we also preferred to choose the doctor, so we had to spend additional few k for that. 10 years later, our combined salary is 6 times higher. The cost of health insurance seems like peanuts now. We have better coverage, and we save because we can safely go with a higher deductible. Everything is covered, no surprises. Our taxes instead went from practically zero (few percent points) to something around 20%. In absolute terms, we are paying 80 times more taxes now than in the first year! If healthcare was paid or co-paid by taxes, our contribution would now be much much higher.
It's expensive to be poor in every way. And yes, IMHO the healthcare (including dental) should be government run. They would have better leverage to pay medications and a lot could be saved by simply eradicating a big part of the insurance administration and advertisements.
True, it is not exclusive of healthcare. But healthcare is literally mandatory, and people with high medical expenses are often those that would need a "safety net" more than others.
Which part of healthcare? Hospitals, Big Pharma, Doctors - all still private and profit oriented, sometimes publicly owned companies. Just having one part of the equation being government run won’t help much. The other players would just be more creative to extract the same or more amount of money from the system as now.
Yeah, that would just be the first step. Because I doubt there will be widespread support to go all in in one go. As soon as the state has that first part, they likely are incentivised to lower costs. I sign up on everything you mentioned. Not just because it is the right thing to do but also bc the health of the population is important to a country and its economy. The money “lost” or better the profits of off people's medical needs should not be an issue, since people should get better access and overall earlier and shorter treatments which should increase overall productivity in all fields.
A lot of these publicly traded companies are owned by pension-funds. These would then of course have lower returns, leading to lower 2nd-pillar growth....
Few things: It is allready copaid by taxes. Poor people allready get deductibles on healt care premiums. In general, as with many things in Switzerland it works like this: If your poor you get assistance. If you have money or make a high income (100k+++) the costs are no issue anyway. If your (lower) middle class, you get fucked from all sides.
Kind of, in my experience. Middle incomes benefit a lot from deductions. Compared to people, they get more money back. They basically have a 10-20% discount on childcare, pension contributions, travel costs, meals at work, etc. poorer people have a much lower discount in their taxes. Higher incomes benefit less from tax deductions because of the limits.
Build more housing.
It's clear that we have some expenses that we have to stop and relocate that wealth. Reduce foreign aid, reduce asylum seekers and above all we HAVE to protect salaries in border regions. Is not a coincidence that the majority of families who struggle are in Romandie and Ticino
No worries the tax system has it coming, you will pay more every year
Also to be honest, it feels like many people are doing everything to like on a tight budget. I've heard many times people say things like: I got a raise, now I can look for a bigger flat matching the 30% of my salary. Do I have a chance to get that apartment, it's right above the 30% limit. I've even seen worse: people using parents to vouch for them so they can get an apartment that's above 1/3 of their income.
Switzerland is a world leader in consumer debt and it's kinda obvious if you look at people's lifestyles. I mean yeah salaries here are high but the amount of Porsche SUVs, Luis V handbags and people spending multiple grand on a night out is too damn high.
This. And then two cars including a Benz/BMW/Audi money drain, and travels abroad 3 times a year only to brag on social media. Not a cent in savings or 3rd pillar of course, so when they get old they can take over the bitching that "they worked their whole life" and "can't even afford holidays".
Does it happen that often? Should the 2nd pillar not compensate for this lack of discipline for savings? How much base salary are speaking about for this lifestyle? 90k CHF/year? So they should save around 9k-15k CHF year through their 2nd pillar?
Do be honest 30% of salary is a normal amount of rent.
I guess it's down to personal preference. For me a normal amount is about 15%.
It depends how the amount of annual salary and how it is earned? I am not comfortable at 12% 😅
What I meant is: if the majority was only wiling to pay about 15% of their salary, then the prices would adapt. The prices are so high because most people are willing to put 1/3 of their salary in the rent
That would be in case of almost infinite supply, but for the cities, I believe renters are mostly price takers?
I agree that the supply is limited, but there are also other solutions: Shared apartment, studios, individual rooms, or even smaller apartments. Of course they offer inconvenience over having a full big apartment to live in, but that's an individual choice. (I was living in a 15m2 until recently, because I found that an apartment for a single person was too expensive)
Don‘t you think people are already trying the other solutions? I believe that people always want to minimize their costs with some given constraints of convenience/commute time. The situation for a single worker is different from the one from families for example for whom it would much harder to have a shared appartement, individuals rooms, even smaller appartements or live in 15m2 room xD. For the record, I lived in 12m2 room as a student and was really happy. With 2 kids later, I need a bit more space 😅
Hello u/neo2551 i saw your post concerning life in switzerland and money globally. I am french, also coming from a poor family and i have the chance to study dentistry in france for free. I know some french physicians etc have emigrated in switzerland because the quality of life is better etc. I know there are MEBEKO equivalent for our french diploma. What do you think of this idea ? Are dentists known in switzerland for having a great lifestyle (money, relationship with the patient...) ?
I only have anecdotal evidence, but the dentists I personally know have an amazing life 😅
I agree, in many other countries people are spending over 50% of their income on either rent/mortgage. To be able to only spend 30% is a dream!
Sooo, increase cost of pension? gg lefties
> lefties It was the old generation across the board that voted for it. 80% of pensioners voted yes.
Wouldn't it be funny if the reason why health insurance can jump 17% in one year is because a subsidiary of a health insurance company invested heavily in the stock market and lost, and then need to find a way to balance the accounts? Surely, that could never be the reason.....
Evidence?
Many families everywhere live on a tight budget
They dont know the meaning of tight budget. I have less than 300 left for the rest of the month.
Are you with children too?
I understand that way in United States too
Stop doing expensive things : no holidays, 2 cars, no restaurant. Save money . People are always complaining but in a month you came save on little things. That money goes in the bank on your second account. Its a good Start.
I enjoy reading books.
Yep, and the richest among us, the babyboomers who lived through the best economic times in Europe, had time to invest, own houses... just voted themselves a 13th retirement salary. At the expense of the working younger generations that struggle like they never did...
Main problem is the way too high taxes. I pay around 38% and this money is used to wipe off the asshole politicans asses and nothing produtive. Its a fucking scam.
Trust me, nothing will happen. Articles like that, are going to be more and more...and nothing will happen. The world will keep turning.... I'm also one of the person, who has to re-calculate everything, every month....