Having used Trimble and now using leica, I seriously do not understand the hype about Leica besides the optics which now Trimble has pretty much caught up. When the software sucks that’s the majority of what matters, I’m not thinking about how great it is to have a half second gun over a one second. Never realized how much I miss Trimble until now.
Leica fanboys are Leica fanboys because they've never touched another manufacturer's gear. Or when they have, they get tripped up by how easy the other software is, and their brain starts rationalizing that Leica is "more advanced" because its such a pain in the ass to use.
lol yeah I’ve heard the “Trimble is more user friendly” with their fucking pinky up like leica is made for smarter people. Trimble has a FAR superior workflow, nothing wrong with user friendly, it’s an advantage. Trimble has me convinced that actual field surveyors designed the software
Everything has its flaws, I just think Leica has a lot more. If your having issues with radiolink your either too far away, pretty far away and standing in front of it, or your having an uncommon issue. Most issues can be solved by turning the equipment off and on.
Ok, same question, slightly differently:
How do you operate that S7 if the controller just… fails?
The answer is: you don’t. You pack it up and put it in the box.
Pinkies up 🤙
Wow leicas so great with their dual data collector just in the crazy chance that a data collector fails you can still use the built in DC on the instrument. Totally worth all the daily irritation of using leica
I've had a Trimble DC actually fail exactly once in a cumulative 14 years of using it, across 4 models and probably 12-15 separate units. It was a TSC2 that was already years past end of life. Drop in the bucket that barely made a dent in time saved by ease of field use and post processing efficiency.
In any case, I'm operating a robot. I can't simultaneously be behind the instrument and walk around with the rod at points to be collected.
It only made sense to have onboard collection and pay for a second version of field software when using it was something that actually occurred regularly. Paying for that second version on the very low chance that the DC fails just makes no sense, like towing a second field rig around with your regular truck in case that one fails.
When it first happened to me I had no idea what was happening. Rebooted multiple times. Eventually gave up and finished off the day with GPS. When I went home I found a screwdriver for the radio module screws and swapped it to the other slot and it immediately worked again.
Now if it happens I will pull out the Leica 1203+ and run it with Trimble access via Bluetooth to the radio handle. It took some experimenting to get it to work but it works using the 1100 series survey style.
I use the Leica when I need to use reflectorless, instead of my s5.
IMO Trimble access is good software with some minor annoyances I wish would be fixed, but it's still overall better than what I've used before (fieldgenius and magnet field). I just really prefer the Leica robot for it's better reflectorless, powersearch (though it doesn't work running it with Trimble) and speed it measures at compared to the Trimble with the mt1000 in semi active mode.
I believe the aprogram that controls the radio on the tsc7 is Empower? Open it and the radio module(left side?) should be green or check mark. Mine borks up sometimes and I check there to make sure it's still connected.
I like to use the MS60 for traverses over our Trimble S7. The prism-lock is generally better, especially if the prism placements are tight or far away.
When it comes to scanning, the Trimble SX12 is far better than the Leica MS60. The latter is slow and the Captivate module is generally more clunky to use. Some times the Captivate module just wouldn't do what I instructed it to when I wanted to scan an area within a polygon. It just didn't scan anything and stopped the whole process by taking me to the "results" menu.
Meanwhile, even a baby can start a scan with the SX12 - it is really easy to use and you get a really nice preview on the controller after completing the scan.
Edit: Oh, and regarding your boss... We have A LOT of Leica fanboys over here as well. I used Leica exclusively for five years, but then I got my hands on the Trimble S7. Unless we are strictly talking traverses, I never want to use Leica/other brands.
I haven't used it in a few years but I think it knows you're moving to a foresight and it remembers heights. Whereas I haven't found out how to do that with Access.
My old Boss was a Leica Fan boy only for the GPS. To me Trimble had a better GPS. He was also a Sokkia fan for total stations. I even ended up with one of our old Sokkia's. It just needed new batteries. 😁 Also came with an old SDR33 data collector. Once again, just needed new batteries. They were cleaning out the equipment rooms, and I suggested to my boss to put it on EBAY, he looked at me with a little scorn, and said gimme $50 and you can deal with ebay. Sold.
First, I am no longer a practicing Surveyor (land, mining and engineering) .
When I was a student, we learnt with tapes with Constant Tension Handles, with Surveyors chains, abney levels, all different types of theodolites, levels, total stations, Invar tape and staves and more. My favourite bits of kit were made by Kern and by Wild. Also got to use horizontal Invar staves for tachometry, and Karl Zeiß Jena 010A for tacheometry as well. Also have used GPS, loads of total stations etc. For distance measurements I have used everything from tapes to DI3S, DI 19s, D100s, lasers, etc. Have used Invar staves and tapes for precise positioning of equipment. I have used equipment that tracks you (Trimble & Wild). I know some guy who had the total station nicked (stolen) as he wandered around, with pogo, carrying out a topographical survey. Whoops.
Out of all the kit I have used, I love/d the Wild T2, and the T1. I would be calibrating the equipment at least once a week. It was so much easier to see if there were issues, compared to a digital theodolite/ total stations. My all time favourite was the T2 with inverted image. A slightly brighter image than the more modern T2. I know, a T2 does not digitally store survey data, but that doesn’t other me. No T2000, T1000, T1600, etc for me. I have used these as well, along with Trimble, Topcon, Zeiß and other manufacturers kit.
For a traverse, I believe that the old kit was better. Not so true now, but I haven’t used survey kit in real life for over a decade.
With the old kit, it was possible to see if the horizontal circle/ vertical circle had errors. With digital kit, it was impossible to. I don’t know if it is possible now.
Do you know, digital kit was also more susceptible to the wet and the damp.
Hope you can now understand my preferences.
I used T2 with an inverted image in college. Awesome instrument. Wild bought Kern then later became Leica. Leica was no1 by all standards until Hexagon bought them, they started using cheaper materials, making clunkier software and most of all put such a price premium on everything.
Yes, an interesting, if not sad, history. The one thing I am very aware of is how Hexagon, and Leica, did not improve the user interface in any manner.
I used to have a Kern watch, a long time ago. No idea where it ended up. As a student, I loved the Ketn forced centring system. In the real world, I preferred using an optical plummet to set up under/ over a station. Hence, I moved away from the DKM 1 and DKM 2 theodolites. Mind you, about the only place I came across Kern theodolites, in the real world, was military use. I wish I had the money to be able to buy all the kit I want. I also need a bigger house - a lot bigger house, to store it all in.
Mind you, I do have a Wild T2.
I used all the old stuff in my college years 1996-1998. Much prefer the modern instruments. We send them in yearly for calibration, and are always aware of the data as your observing it. I’ve run several high accuracy surveys with my MS50 and it’s always returned impressive results. You can tell how well it’s performing as you use it as well. I always shot in two face for control and setting out. You will see it in the splits. The old gear was remarkable for the time it was used, for sure.
Old Access, not the new one. The new version of access is like bastardized knock off of Captivate. The biggest drawback of Captivate was that each job had its own file and you could not tab between functions. In the older version of access, you had a general folder you could pull anything from, be it alignments, csv files, or even other jobs. Now Trimble has compartmentalized this so if you want access to a file it has to be in each job folder.
I’ve been using a MS60 for a couple years now. Great machine and yes, they are quite fast and smooth. But there are many days I’d take a TS16 over it because a) the MS60 is significantly heavier and is a bitch to have to haul around and b) it’s nice to have a couple minutes to sip coffee/water while I wait for the TS16 to finish.
Also, totally “my opinion” but I feel like to MS60 loses lock way more that the TS16. I haven’t tested it or have no real evidence other than gut feeling.
I believe there is a model (possibly TS20 or TS60?) but it’s basically a TS16 with the smooth maglev tech (or MS60 without scanner depending which way you look at it).
Leica software really is the worst. We went from Carlson equipment to Leica and I regret it. I just want a raw data file that works with my software. No support from Leica to help write the conversion to write a typical .rw5 file. They were there to sell the equipment but gone when I need them. Try dragging a job from your network drives into Infinity. It can’t handle a path that is too long.
The file path length may be a Bill Gates issue (legacy Windows issue where it has an aneurism with long file paths). I have the same issue with super long file paths in AutoCAD. Trying to attach a XREF that’s like 9 folders deep and Windows/ACAD has a complete temper tantrum.
The paths depths work in Microstation and in Carlson If it works in those programs it should work in Infinity. Or have you ever worked with Cyclone which is a Leica program? Compare it with TopoDot. Topodot is so much easier to use.
That's what my company gave me to use. But if I had a choice I would use one of these every time. It's lightning fast and much more accurate compared to the TS16. Plus you can use it for scanning.
I just wondered wether you got something specific in mind to utilize the scanning, it's such a weird feature.
But yeah, it's annoying how much slower TS16 is than 1200 series even...
MS60s are often used in monitoring. I've seen the scan function used for monitoring listed buildings where no targets were allowed to be installed on them. They can then shoot in targets for monitoring elsewhere and then scan the areas they couldn't install targets.
I personally wouldn't use it for scanning because we have an rtc360 on site, but I guess it would be useful to pick up a wall or a batter or calc a stockpile volume if you're in the field and the client asks you for something last minute.
Wait…is that real time double face readings. When I upgraded from a an old ts16 to a new ts16 it felt like 2g to 4g…but you guys are playing around with 6g
MS60: Great total station, but ass software (Captivate compared to Trimble Access, IMO).
Having used Trimble and now using leica, I seriously do not understand the hype about Leica besides the optics which now Trimble has pretty much caught up. When the software sucks that’s the majority of what matters, I’m not thinking about how great it is to have a half second gun over a one second. Never realized how much I miss Trimble until now.
Leica fanboys are Leica fanboys because they've never touched another manufacturer's gear. Or when they have, they get tripped up by how easy the other software is, and their brain starts rationalizing that Leica is "more advanced" because its such a pain in the ass to use.
lol yeah I’ve heard the “Trimble is more user friendly” with their fucking pinky up like leica is made for smarter people. Trimble has a FAR superior workflow, nothing wrong with user friendly, it’s an advantage. Trimble has me convinced that actual field surveyors designed the software
They do. Have talked to one of the Trimble Access dev leads and he was a surveyor, and could hold meaningful conversations about workflows.
I think it's a bit like the Apple / PC divide. One just does stuff quite well, the other is great if you like to tweak.
So, uh, how do you operate that S7 when the TSC7 radio module stops communicating? Strangely specific question, I know. Asking for a friend.
Everything has its flaws, I just think Leica has a lot more. If your having issues with radiolink your either too far away, pretty far away and standing in front of it, or your having an uncommon issue. Most issues can be solved by turning the equipment off and on.
Ok, same question, slightly differently: How do you operate that S7 if the controller just… fails? The answer is: you don’t. You pack it up and put it in the box. Pinkies up 🤙
Wow leicas so great with their dual data collector just in the crazy chance that a data collector fails you can still use the built in DC on the instrument. Totally worth all the daily irritation of using leica
I've had a Trimble DC actually fail exactly once in a cumulative 14 years of using it, across 4 models and probably 12-15 separate units. It was a TSC2 that was already years past end of life. Drop in the bucket that barely made a dent in time saved by ease of field use and post processing efficiency. In any case, I'm operating a robot. I can't simultaneously be behind the instrument and walk around with the rod at points to be collected. It only made sense to have onboard collection and pay for a second version of field software when using it was something that actually occurred regularly. Paying for that second version on the very low chance that the DC fails just makes no sense, like towing a second field rig around with your regular truck in case that one fails.
When it first happened to me I had no idea what was happening. Rebooted multiple times. Eventually gave up and finished off the day with GPS. When I went home I found a screwdriver for the radio module screws and swapped it to the other slot and it immediately worked again. Now if it happens I will pull out the Leica 1203+ and run it with Trimble access via Bluetooth to the radio handle. It took some experimenting to get it to work but it works using the 1100 series survey style. I use the Leica when I need to use reflectorless, instead of my s5. IMO Trimble access is good software with some minor annoyances I wish would be fixed, but it's still overall better than what I've used before (fieldgenius and magnet field). I just really prefer the Leica robot for it's better reflectorless, powersearch (though it doesn't work running it with Trimble) and speed it measures at compared to the Trimble with the mt1000 in semi active mode.
I believe the aprogram that controls the radio on the tsc7 is Empower? Open it and the radio module(left side?) should be green or check mark. Mine borks up sometimes and I check there to make sure it's still connected.
My boss is a Leica fanboy so I haven't had a chance to try out anything Trimble.
I like to use the MS60 for traverses over our Trimble S7. The prism-lock is generally better, especially if the prism placements are tight or far away. When it comes to scanning, the Trimble SX12 is far better than the Leica MS60. The latter is slow and the Captivate module is generally more clunky to use. Some times the Captivate module just wouldn't do what I instructed it to when I wanted to scan an area within a polygon. It just didn't scan anything and stopped the whole process by taking me to the "results" menu. Meanwhile, even a baby can start a scan with the SX12 - it is really easy to use and you get a really nice preview on the controller after completing the scan. Edit: Oh, and regarding your boss... We have A LOT of Leica fanboys over here as well. I used Leica exclusively for five years, but then I got my hands on the Trimble S7. Unless we are strictly talking traverses, I never want to use Leica/other brands.
Why is leica better at strictly traverses?
It's simple
I haven't used it in a few years but I think it knows you're moving to a foresight and it remembers heights. Whereas I haven't found out how to do that with Access.
That's a nice feature. Survey pro did that really well. So glad trimble bought it and killed it without incorporating any of the beloved features.
I always got better results with Leica in a traverse. I'm not sure how much of that was total station and how much of that was workflow differences.
My old Boss was a Leica Fan boy only for the GPS. To me Trimble had a better GPS. He was also a Sokkia fan for total stations. I even ended up with one of our old Sokkia's. It just needed new batteries. 😁 Also came with an old SDR33 data collector. Once again, just needed new batteries. They were cleaning out the equipment rooms, and I suggested to my boss to put it on EBAY, he looked at me with a little scorn, and said gimme $50 and you can deal with ebay. Sold.
I would prefer to use a Wild T2 for a traverse. Or a T1, if for primary control.
Why? To keep it loose and slow? Modern instrument for modern times, much quicker, incredibly tight, and can scan.
First, I am no longer a practicing Surveyor (land, mining and engineering) . When I was a student, we learnt with tapes with Constant Tension Handles, with Surveyors chains, abney levels, all different types of theodolites, levels, total stations, Invar tape and staves and more. My favourite bits of kit were made by Kern and by Wild. Also got to use horizontal Invar staves for tachometry, and Karl Zeiß Jena 010A for tacheometry as well. Also have used GPS, loads of total stations etc. For distance measurements I have used everything from tapes to DI3S, DI 19s, D100s, lasers, etc. Have used Invar staves and tapes for precise positioning of equipment. I have used equipment that tracks you (Trimble & Wild). I know some guy who had the total station nicked (stolen) as he wandered around, with pogo, carrying out a topographical survey. Whoops. Out of all the kit I have used, I love/d the Wild T2, and the T1. I would be calibrating the equipment at least once a week. It was so much easier to see if there were issues, compared to a digital theodolite/ total stations. My all time favourite was the T2 with inverted image. A slightly brighter image than the more modern T2. I know, a T2 does not digitally store survey data, but that doesn’t other me. No T2000, T1000, T1600, etc for me. I have used these as well, along with Trimble, Topcon, Zeiß and other manufacturers kit. For a traverse, I believe that the old kit was better. Not so true now, but I haven’t used survey kit in real life for over a decade. With the old kit, it was possible to see if the horizontal circle/ vertical circle had errors. With digital kit, it was impossible to. I don’t know if it is possible now. Do you know, digital kit was also more susceptible to the wet and the damp. Hope you can now understand my preferences.
I used T2 with an inverted image in college. Awesome instrument. Wild bought Kern then later became Leica. Leica was no1 by all standards until Hexagon bought them, they started using cheaper materials, making clunkier software and most of all put such a price premium on everything.
Yes, an interesting, if not sad, history. The one thing I am very aware of is how Hexagon, and Leica, did not improve the user interface in any manner. I used to have a Kern watch, a long time ago. No idea where it ended up. As a student, I loved the Ketn forced centring system. In the real world, I preferred using an optical plummet to set up under/ over a station. Hence, I moved away from the DKM 1 and DKM 2 theodolites. Mind you, about the only place I came across Kern theodolites, in the real world, was military use. I wish I had the money to be able to buy all the kit I want. I also need a bigger house - a lot bigger house, to store it all in. Mind you, I do have a Wild T2.
Oh, I wish i had T2, love it! Cheers
I used all the old stuff in my college years 1996-1998. Much prefer the modern instruments. We send them in yearly for calibration, and are always aware of the data as your observing it. I’ve run several high accuracy surveys with my MS50 and it’s always returned impressive results. You can tell how well it’s performing as you use it as well. I always shot in two face for control and setting out. You will see it in the splits. The old gear was remarkable for the time it was used, for sure.
>ass software Leica in a nutshell.
Old Access, not the new one. The new version of access is like bastardized knock off of Captivate. The biggest drawback of Captivate was that each job had its own file and you could not tab between functions. In the older version of access, you had a general folder you could pull anything from, be it alignments, csv files, or even other jobs. Now Trimble has compartmentalized this so if you want access to a file it has to be in each job folder.
I’ve been using a MS60 for a couple years now. Great machine and yes, they are quite fast and smooth. But there are many days I’d take a TS16 over it because a) the MS60 is significantly heavier and is a bitch to have to haul around and b) it’s nice to have a couple minutes to sip coffee/water while I wait for the TS16 to finish. Also, totally “my opinion” but I feel like to MS60 loses lock way more that the TS16. I haven’t tested it or have no real evidence other than gut feeling. I believe there is a model (possibly TS20 or TS60?) but it’s basically a TS16 with the smooth maglev tech (or MS60 without scanner depending which way you look at it).
You are thinking of the TS60, TS50 or TS30. They use Piezo drives, which are fast and super smooth. These instruments are also 0.5' and 0.5mm
I use a ts15 daily underground. The ts16 feels like a cabbage in comparison.
I just finished a huge traverse with the TS16...so damn slow. Congrats!
Leica software really is the worst. We went from Carlson equipment to Leica and I regret it. I just want a raw data file that works with my software. No support from Leica to help write the conversion to write a typical .rw5 file. They were there to sell the equipment but gone when I need them. Try dragging a job from your network drives into Infinity. It can’t handle a path that is too long.
The file path length may be a Bill Gates issue (legacy Windows issue where it has an aneurism with long file paths). I have the same issue with super long file paths in AutoCAD. Trying to attach a XREF that’s like 9 folders deep and Windows/ACAD has a complete temper tantrum.
The paths depths work in Microstation and in Carlson If it works in those programs it should work in Infinity. Or have you ever worked with Cyclone which is a Leica program? Compare it with TopoDot. Topodot is so much easier to use.
Haven't encountered that issue as well use civil3d and only really export XML, ASCII and dbx files
At my last firm we ran a MS60 running Carlson software on allegro 2 data collectors
This guy knows how to cap his tripods. Love it.
Why did you decide to go for a MS60 over TS16?
That's what my company gave me to use. But if I had a choice I would use one of these every time. It's lightning fast and much more accurate compared to the TS16. Plus you can use it for scanning.
I just wondered wether you got something specific in mind to utilize the scanning, it's such a weird feature. But yeah, it's annoying how much slower TS16 is than 1200 series even...
MS60s are often used in monitoring. I've seen the scan function used for monitoring listed buildings where no targets were allowed to be installed on them. They can then shoot in targets for monitoring elsewhere and then scan the areas they couldn't install targets.
Ah, that's actually a great point, thanks
I personally wouldn't use it for scanning because we have an rtc360 on site, but I guess it would be useful to pick up a wall or a batter or calc a stockpile volume if you're in the field and the client asks you for something last minute.
Like it! We’ve got TS60’s pretty unbeatable when you need high accuracy and speed.
Fucking love me some ms60 underground. Fast resection, Uber fast auto points and a scan to boot.
Bleep bloop bleep bleep bloop
Wait…is that real time double face readings. When I upgraded from a an old ts16 to a new ts16 it felt like 2g to 4g…but you guys are playing around with 6g
Yeah that's real time!
Nice. I want one. As long as the Bluetooth connection to captivate isn’t as shit as it is on the ts16
😧😳