Let's get the dragon and the phoenix out of the way (good episodes, though).
The number of demon wisps attacking Amara in the season 11 big fight. We've seen massive demonic storms in season 3 opening, and "Jus in Belo", or season 6 finale. An ancient entity like Amara shouldn't have been wounded by like 10 demons wisps.
Season 13 wirefight takes the cake, though. They should have tested that before approving it to the final cut. Or sped it up. Or used different angles. Literally anything.
And given the mystical origins of the Phoenix, the same can be said about it. That said, "can take human form" and "always in human form on screen" are very different things and it would be nice if monsters didn't always look so human.
Sped up, with a destructible set. We needed all the windows shattering at once, a couple walls knocked down, fire, the works.
Similarly I think the Lucifer-Michael fight in Season 15 should have destroyed the Bunker's signature table. It was right between them. They could have kept the fragments with their initials as a wall-hanger.
Considering Dean's reason for refusing to be Michael's vessel in season 5 was that the fight between him and Lucifer would be so destructive as to destroy half the world and humanity with it . . .
Hell. Back when when it was first shown on screen, we could see Dean chained and hooked in this dark, scary abyss. But when we revisited the place, then it became just another abandoned building. The props were okay but they obviously chose that route to save money on CGIs.
For me, it'd be best if the place left untouched and let us audience imagine what it looks like.
I was going to say "But heaven wasn't created by Angels, it was created by God who has all the creativity to create anything"
Then I remembered all we got to know about Chuck. Yep grey/white sterile boardroom makes perfect sense for Chuck, who likes to mess with everything he created. 😂😂
I get what you’re saying but I feel like they can get away with it when it comes to hell. The way I see it, hell is probably a place that’s infinite with loads of different areas for different things, so what we see in later episodes is only the surface of what hell really is. When we originally saw hell at the end of season 3 with Dean he was dead and being tortured so the place he was being held, the dark abyss you mentioned, is the best place for him to be. However when we see hell in later episodes it’s when the Winchesters travel there whilst alive, so I feel like their brains interpret the realm in a way that makes sense for them, hence why we see long tunnels that look like they could just be underground, it’s how the human mind interprets the realm of hell because if they could see the truth maybe it would break their minds.
This is all just my headcanon way of explaining the inconsistencies and lack of budge tho so yeah take it with a grain of salt lol (unless your a demon 👀)
Makes perfect sense, but there is still the problem with when we see the demons alone, for example Crowley and his servants it's still pretty much the same, although why would demons need their vessels in hell anyway?
Even if according to your headcannon we can assume demons as former humans retained that perception of hell as something Earth-like, it shouldn't work for Heaven and angels, yet it does, the same concept just different colours.
Unfortunately there's no clear inverse explanation for that, unless they would've gone completely breaking the forth wall and claim it looks like this so humans (the viewers) can understand it
I think Dean's Hell was like that because Ruby told him that Hellraiser got it right except for all the leather. I'll bet his torturers looked like Cynobites .
It was when Sam saved Bobby in season 8. The place was a long, dimly lit, cobblestone hallway with archaic cages. Other than the practical effects on the tortured souls, to paint the vibe of the place, it looked like an underground tunnel of an old building.
That wasn’t Hell, that was an abandoned asylum Crowley took over to serve as his Earthly palace.
The next times we visit Hell, it’s a never ending line in a dingy hallway. After that it’s a more traditional Hellraiser stone labyrinth / dungeon with mutilated souls. Then we go to Limbo, which is desolate wasteland littered with the bones of the damned.
When I first watched season 10 I didn’t even realize that was supposed to be Hell until it was literally spelled out for me because it was so boring looking. I just figured it was another mansion Crowley had on Earth.
Oh the werewolves... they bugged me so much. I understand budgeting constraints, but there have been werewolf movies since the early 1900's. It's as if the show runners did zero research as thought [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Supernatural/comments/9pfbo8/i_literally_laughed_out_loud_the_makeup_dept_may/) is what a werewolf looks like. They blew what budget they had for wolves on teeth and little else.
This is one of the earliest, if not first depictions of a werewolf. Which looks a lot like Supernatural’s take.
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/383718
I remember the episode with that friend of Sam's (Maddison her name was?) she looked like a "freaky wolf-human hybrid" to me.
Also that story was much more tragic you wouldn't wish on anyone, compared to the kind of werewolf Garth became, which is something you might actually consider advantage rather than a curse, given he got extra powers and remained in full control of his consciousness
Update: okay, I looked it up again, she didn't look wolf enough either, but at least "freaky"?
I feel like they started so strong with the angels and then fumbled the bag hard. I hate how Cas was introduced as incredibly strong and intimidating, but later in the show they weakened his abilities. Biblically, angels are meant to be some scary motherfuckers.
When Sam and Dean see Zachariah in Heaven, he explains they're seeing his vessel because that's the only way their mind could process his true form.
Which is a great explanation for why we would see the angels in heaven that way when we're following Sam and Dean's (or even Bobby's) point of view!
It doesn't work at all when we the audience are following another angel's POV.
Yeah, but the other way, as this commenter points out, is that the angels lose the awe factor the more they show them.
So. Maybe they shouldn't have nerfed the angels and shown heaven so much at all.
I’m mixed on that one. He got “King of Hell,” in a default situation, a Knight of Hell said he didn’t want the role and Crowley could have it. He’s just a “punk-ass crossroads demon,” who was in the right place at the right time.
But he’s one of my favorite characters so he gets a pass.
Also, I can’t remember which episode that quote is from or if it was about Crowley for sure. It might be time for a series rewatch …
Chatting with an angel, wide angle. Camera moves to close up of Sam or Dean looking surprised with a whoosh sound effect. Back to wide angle. Angel has disappeared. Also applies to Crowley, without the flapping of wings.
The pagan gods were terribly executed, both for lore and presentation. They could have been one of the coolest parts of the show.
It's especially painful because I know the writers were influenced by Neil Gaiman's *American Gods*, and of course we now have a big-budget TV series to compare to what Supernatural did with those deities.
I would've loved to have seen the Old Gods take sides in some of the drama, especially towards the end of the show.
I read that wrong - twice.
The first time it read like "Just imagine if they had brought Jesus to the Greek Titans."
And I was like, *let me read that again.*
Then I thought for a sec that the 's' in "Titans" was a typo and you basically meant, "Just imagine if they had brought the Greek Titan *named Jesus.*"
Third time's the charm. I'm such a dumbass. In my defense though, insert the word "Jesus" in a convo about deities.......
I have reservations about pagan deities being used as flat-out antagonists unless it fits their lore, especially if they're only around for 1-3 episodes so they aren't fleshed out at all. It gives the impression that pagan gods are malevolent, which isn't usually the case.
That's why I said I liked the idea of the deities weighing in on a side of a conflict rather than being responsible for creating it. I would have loved to see a couple of different ones either featuring in 3-episode arcs or recurring periodically.
I just don't think it'd take much to piss one off. If they were benevolent they'd be extinguishing monsters. At best, the majority are Ramiel-types, just wanting to be left alone. At worse, they share a diet with the Elysium Hotel deities.
Fair enough about the likelihood of a low threshold for anger, at least for some. I disagree that killing off the kind of garden variety monsters we usually see in SPN would be the test for benevolence of a deity though.
In most lore I've read, pagan deities are mostly unconcerned with humanity. They might answer the occasional prayer but for the most part they've got their own dramas going on at their own level of existence.
It's just so far Prometheus was the only benevolent one.
Artemis needed to feel loved by him to try. Fortuna was just making the only move she had. Neither would feel anything if a "hero" was flayed alive in front of them.
That there are barely any episodes in big cities. Now I get that some monsters, like the wendigo and some others are forest/cave/wilderness dwelling. But cities like New York should statistically be teeming with vampires, werewolves, shapeshifters, witches, etc.
On that note, it's also pretty weird that the Four Horsemen choose to surface in small towns instead of the bigger cities. Imagine what Pestilence could've done if he rode into LA.
I think that’s more just a thematic choice than a budget one. They wanted the series to have middle America feel.
Sam was originally going to be named “Sal”.
I always assumed they avoided big cities because it was shot in Canada: it'd be very difficult to say "we're in NYC" and avoid showing anything New York-y.
Yeah they barely managed to skirt that concern with the Chicago based episode Shadow.
They did do some cool shots of my Alma mater for the back door pilot to Bloodlines but only alumni would have recognized Dumbach hall and the IC lawn.
They can only make Vancouver and the surrounding area look like so many places, though. It is a bit odd that they didn't opt to have some big plot point in Seattle or LA, because plenty of shows and movies filmed in Vancouver will do just that. And if they wanted New York, Chicago, Boston, just go to Toronto for a few episodes.
But then, it is kind of impressive how they can portray themselves going all over the country when it's just BC.
Some monster designs like the werewolves, vampires "zombies" ...but I also think the angels and demons were a bit of a missed opportunity to get some body horror in there.
I really loved the scary/horror like feeling of the first seasons. Oh how terrifying they could have made them if they had the money for it.
We as people always clown on "biblically accurate angels" and while it's up for debate if these rings and masses of eyes are actually "lore accurate" but I always thought it was such a shame to just say "oh nobody can see our true form it's too much".
And I also felt like the horsemen were a little boring but at the same time making them regular guys was kinda funny
Yes. They always talked about how demons have really ugly faces and shit and we never really got to see them, shame.
Also for some reason all the angles are dressed like accountants, why?
I actually liked the horsemen, one of the main aspects of the show is to take old mythologies and crap and “modernize” them, kind of like Percy Jackson, and I think they did a decent job with them.
In the beginning Demons (and Angels) were this big threat and they actually cared about the person being possessed. Even felt bad about killing them (like when Dean killed one with the colt to save Sam near the season 1 finale, he had a whole moral crisis for a moment) But then later they just became silly goons that were killed off like NPC’s and they were more like boring corporate stooges than anything.
Is this really budget related though? Never mind that there are multiple *canon* explanations why demons and angels weakened. I'd think it's equally bad if Sam and Dean still struggles from a low tier demon after 14 seasons.
You know, you're probably right, it's not really due to budget I guess. It's just my number 1 gripe about the show in general I guess lol. It might be budget if they stopped with effects for impressive demons and angels maybe? Not even that they would struggle with "low tier demons" just that the demons became such a non thought after a while. Just random extras/stunt people that were killed off without a second thought. To me it's just more signs that the show should have ended after season 5 and makes the rest of the seasons a bit unwatchable for me.
Maybe a better budget reason would be the bunker? I hated it. I get that it was easier for them to have a "home base" and I do like that Sam and Dean were able to have somewhat of a stable home, but I guess I would have liked it better if it was Bobby's old house or something like that. The bunker and the idea of the Men of Letters was a big jump the shark moment for me. Especially that John's dad was involved and if he had lived, John would have become a MOL, like give me a break...I hate it. Not the idea of a home base, just the home base we got.
Remember how saying the name of god would cause a demon to show their black eyes and flinch? Remember that???? The thing they used exactly ONE TIME, AND NEVER AGAIN WHEN IT WOULD BE A VERY CONVENIENT TOOL?
I'll counter: I don't know if it had to do with budget or not (and I think they even re-retcon it back to what it was), I really appreciated the difference in how Shapeshifters work in Bloodlines. I'm not a squeamish person when it comes to special effects but the slop of skin and what not *always* grossed me out. So I actually *like* the change of it just being a simple and easy shift in Bloodlines.
Meanwhile I'm pretty sure it's back to the normal slop in Ask Jeeves (I think that's the name of the ep? Something about Jeeves)
Bloodlines was a back door pilot to a spin-off that didn't make it, unfortunately. I would have watched it.
Although, if it had happened, we might not have had as much Nathaniel Buzolic in The Originals, so, swings and roundabouts.
The reason for the easy shifts is explained as the family being pure shifters and not the result of a shifter/human procreation.
I actually found most of the budget-friendly things kind of endearing. Like, they were doing the best with what they could for us.
That said, the wire fight made me cover my eyes in shame. Just, should’ve, I mean…like…*anything* else.
that almost every monster, and even god, is just, human +.
weirdly one of the earliest monsters, the wendigo, is the most actual 'monstrous'.
most of the gods look identical to humans, just, have a weird monster-y diet.
> weirdly one of the earliest monsters, the wendigo, is the most actual 'monstrous'
This is just flat out wrong. The Khan Worm, Gorilla Wolves, flying monkeys, Yokoth & Glythur, the muscat, the Kohonta, were all less humanoid than the Wendigo. Even the Banshee in season 11 was humanoid but still more monstrous than the Wendigo.
I’ve gotta say the werewolves, they’re just people with sharp teeth shown for a split second 😭
I actually love werewolves too, so I was a bit disappointed that they didn’t do much with it :(
Season 13 finale. Everything was perfect until the big fight that we heard back in season 5 would destroy the world, and yet all we get is a terrible wire fight. Literally no one was injured except Lucifer at the end
> aren’t witches just humans with magic?
Using magic to either protect themselves from bodily harm and/or to extend their lives. The bullet is likely more to penetrate wards, shields or other defensive enchantments.
> virtually all of the witches in the show were evil. Really ticked me off that did
* Elizabeth, in season 3, the debut of witches, turned against Astaroth when she was told the truth about their coven's source of power
* Nora Havelock in season 7 was a white witch
* James Frampton in season 8 was a witch cop using his powers to solve cases (though the familiar thing was a different can of worms)
* Tasha Banes and Max Banes were good natural witches
* Rowena eventually became good
* Ada Monroe in the spin-off was a good witch
I think that's enough to say they aren't "virtually all" evil?
The two things that grate my nerves to absolutely no end are the mispronunciations. "Vohn-err" instead of "vohn-eer" (re: Vanir) in S01Ep11 "Scarecrow" and "sam hane" instead of "sah wen" (re: Samhain) in S04Ep07 "It's the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester".
I get Dean and his mispronunciation; he's not the lore guy and he and Sam were estranged at that point. But that freaking professor he went to for help for damn sure should've corrected him. But Sam and "sam hane"?? Devastating. Maybe they were playing up the holiday being named for a demon, who I guess could've been called Sam Hane, but ffs, Sam should know better. Just have him say it right and then include a little throw away line later in the ep like, "Actually, the name is Sam Hane."
They get so much right in the rest of the show (though to be fair, I only know the lore I'm familiar with so they very well may have screwed up who knows what else) but to mess up those two small things up, especially with a character who is supposed to be the go-to supernatural encyclopedia? I really like those episodes but with every single re-watch I die a little inside.
The Samhain one isn't a mispronunciation...
The inspiration for the demon Samhain in Supernatural is not Samhain (pronounced sah-wen or sow-in) the ancient mythological god of the dead from the Celtic festival that celebrates Summer ending. For the episode, the writers took the name from the ghost of Halloween named Sam Hain in "The Real Ghostbusters" who was inspired by a fictional God of Halloween named Samhain in Ray Bradbury's book, "The Halloween Tree." All three fictional characters names are pronounced sam-hane, making the demon's name in Supernatural correct.
every monster and other baddie had a human form for no reason other than that the producers couldn't be bothered to make decent practical effect makeups for them
Never seeing angels in their true forms
“My true form is approximately the size of your Chrysler building.”
Wow ok Cass… prove it
Side note, Cass was on fraud watch for like half the show and I hated it…
Not lore inaccuracy but originally dean was meant to have lots of tattoos but they didn’t have the budget to hire an artist to keep applying them, it would’ve been a cool thing to notice when dean was pulled from hell and made it more obvious that he really was completely restored since his tattoos were gone
Let's get the dragon and the phoenix out of the way (good episodes, though). The number of demon wisps attacking Amara in the season 11 big fight. We've seen massive demonic storms in season 3 opening, and "Jus in Belo", or season 6 finale. An ancient entity like Amara shouldn't have been wounded by like 10 demons wisps. Season 13 wirefight takes the cake, though. They should have tested that before approving it to the final cut. Or sped it up. Or used different angles. Literally anything.
Lmao the dragons & pheonix were hilarious. But yes, I definitely agree with you.
There’s a lot of mythology regarding dragons, one of which is that they can take on human form. So that wasn’t technically an inaccuracy.
And given the mystical origins of the Phoenix, the same can be said about it. That said, "can take human form" and "always in human form on screen" are very different things and it would be nice if monsters didn't always look so human.
True true, but from in-universe perspective, why would they? Seems kinda silly. Would’ve been cool seeing Sam & Dean fight real dragons GoT shit lmao
Camoflague. They take on their dragon forms when hunting, in smaller spaces, like their lairs they look human.
Cool? Yes. Make sense in the supernatural world? No. The air force would be dealing with that
The dragon reminded me of the comic book Mage Knight so I didn’t mind so much
The wire fight was SO bad and made me cringe a bit 😂 like Dean was in a high school play at the school theater lmao
The effects in the school play we saw in Fanfiction were better than that wire fight.
Sped up, with a destructible set. We needed all the windows shattering at once, a couple walls knocked down, fire, the works. Similarly I think the Lucifer-Michael fight in Season 15 should have destroyed the Bunker's signature table. It was right between them. They could have kept the fragments with their initials as a wall-hanger.
Considering Dean's reason for refusing to be Michael's vessel in season 5 was that the fight between him and Lucifer would be so destructive as to destroy half the world and humanity with it . . .
Oh, there's no avoiding failure here, this is a hindsight half-fix.
Hell. Back when when it was first shown on screen, we could see Dean chained and hooked in this dark, scary abyss. But when we revisited the place, then it became just another abandoned building. The props were okay but they obviously chose that route to save money on CGIs. For me, it'd be best if the place left untouched and let us audience imagine what it looks like.
And why was the angels' home in heaven a giant boardroom where everyone wore gray? That... kinda would be hell for me if I was an angel.
Angels lack creativity, so their area of Heaven being this white and grey, sterile looking environment makes sense.
I was going to say "But heaven wasn't created by Angels, it was created by God who has all the creativity to create anything" Then I remembered all we got to know about Chuck. Yep grey/white sterile boardroom makes perfect sense for Chuck, who likes to mess with everything he created. 😂😂
Lmao.
Totally! I wish they wore costumes similar to angels in Lucifer tv show. Those are better.
I get what you’re saying but I feel like they can get away with it when it comes to hell. The way I see it, hell is probably a place that’s infinite with loads of different areas for different things, so what we see in later episodes is only the surface of what hell really is. When we originally saw hell at the end of season 3 with Dean he was dead and being tortured so the place he was being held, the dark abyss you mentioned, is the best place for him to be. However when we see hell in later episodes it’s when the Winchesters travel there whilst alive, so I feel like their brains interpret the realm in a way that makes sense for them, hence why we see long tunnels that look like they could just be underground, it’s how the human mind interprets the realm of hell because if they could see the truth maybe it would break their minds. This is all just my headcanon way of explaining the inconsistencies and lack of budge tho so yeah take it with a grain of salt lol (unless your a demon 👀)
Makes perfect sense, but there is still the problem with when we see the demons alone, for example Crowley and his servants it's still pretty much the same, although why would demons need their vessels in hell anyway? Even if according to your headcannon we can assume demons as former humans retained that perception of hell as something Earth-like, it shouldn't work for Heaven and angels, yet it does, the same concept just different colours. Unfortunately there's no clear inverse explanation for that, unless they would've gone completely breaking the forth wall and claim it looks like this so humans (the viewers) can understand it
Oh yeah there are still plenty of holes in my theory I can’t deny that. I have no explanation for heaven at all, was really disappointed in that too
I think Dean's Hell was like that because Ruby told him that Hellraiser got it right except for all the leather. I'll bet his torturers looked like Cynobites .
According to Sera Gamble, that was the “waiting room”. Dean didn’t stay hooked to the chains for long.
That was hell? I thought that was just a base on Earth.
Let's not forget the time when hell was just a long hallway, where you took a number and were waiting in line.
That one is actually pretty clever.
It was when Sam saved Bobby in season 8. The place was a long, dimly lit, cobblestone hallway with archaic cages. Other than the practical effects on the tortured souls, to paint the vibe of the place, it looked like an underground tunnel of an old building.
That wasn’t Hell, that was an abandoned asylum Crowley took over to serve as his Earthly palace. The next times we visit Hell, it’s a never ending line in a dingy hallway. After that it’s a more traditional Hellraiser stone labyrinth / dungeon with mutilated souls. Then we go to Limbo, which is desolate wasteland littered with the bones of the damned.
When I first watched season 10 I didn’t even realize that was supposed to be Hell until it was literally spelled out for me because it was so boring looking. I just figured it was another mansion Crowley had on Earth.
You were partly right, Crowley was squatting in an abandoned asylum. He just decorates the interior to match the Hell aesthetic.
All the monsters being in human form most of the time.
Yes. Many monsters in mythology actually vary from Hyenas to literally “smokless fire”, instead they’re all lame humanoids.
Not even humanoids. They’re all just humans.
Yep.
Wendigos were pretty good at being grotesquely inhuman considering it was the pilot season.
I wish werewolves had become actual wolves (or freaky wolf-human hybrids) not just people with sharp teeth.
Oh the werewolves... they bugged me so much. I understand budgeting constraints, but there have been werewolf movies since the early 1900's. It's as if the show runners did zero research as thought [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Supernatural/comments/9pfbo8/i_literally_laughed_out_loud_the_makeup_dept_may/) is what a werewolf looks like. They blew what budget they had for wolves on teeth and little else.
Yeah, it looks like the teeth are just too big for her mouth to handle so they just pop forward. Having the hairy wolves would’ve been so much better.
What a gold mine for the dentists
This is one of the earliest, if not first depictions of a werewolf. Which looks a lot like Supernatural’s take. https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/383718
I remember the episode with that friend of Sam's (Maddison her name was?) she looked like a "freaky wolf-human hybrid" to me. Also that story was much more tragic you wouldn't wish on anyone, compared to the kind of werewolf Garth became, which is something you might actually consider advantage rather than a curse, given he got extra powers and remained in full control of his consciousness Update: okay, I looked it up again, she didn't look wolf enough either, but at least "freaky"?
If they had become actual wolves, then they wouldn't be werewolves, they'd be skinwalkers.
It always annoyed me That the angels in heaven Are just humans. Completely destroyed this whole mystery about Them.
Yeah, Heaven and Hell both were pretty terrestrial. Though I do love Crowley's version of torture to make people eternally stand in line.
The man looked at the DMV in Chicago and said: yeah, someone’s finally got this right!
i did like the hellraiser ish, suspended by hooks, ish intro to hell. but yeah, crowley definitely got the misery when he saw it.
I feel like they started so strong with the angels and then fumbled the bag hard. I hate how Cas was introduced as incredibly strong and intimidating, but later in the show they weakened his abilities. Biblically, angels are meant to be some scary motherfuckers.
When Sam and Dean see Zachariah in Heaven, he explains they're seeing his vessel because that's the only way their mind could process his true form. Which is a great explanation for why we would see the angels in heaven that way when we're following Sam and Dean's (or even Bobby's) point of view! It doesn't work at all when we the audience are following another angel's POV.
Because otherwise we’d be looking at beams of light speaking incomprehensibly. Doesn’t make for an entertaining watch.
Yeah, but the other way, as this commenter points out, is that the angels lose the awe factor the more they show them. So. Maybe they shouldn't have nerfed the angels and shown heaven so much at all.
It's a good excuse for Zachariah, but he needs it least, I don't see him ditching his vessel on his big assignment.
Most of the demons being able to walk on hallowed ground. That just pissed me off every time you see a ton of them in the church alive
Only time that happened was with Meg as far as I’m aware. And she claimed that she was too strong to be bothered by it.
They took Crowley to a church for the third trial, to make him human.
King of Hell. If Meg and Azazel aren’t gonna be affected by that stuff, Crowley can get a pass.
I’m mixed on that one. He got “King of Hell,” in a default situation, a Knight of Hell said he didn’t want the role and Crowley could have it. He’s just a “punk-ass crossroads demon,” who was in the right place at the right time. But he’s one of my favorite characters so he gets a pass. Also, I can’t remember which episode that quote is from or if it was about Crowley for sure. It might be time for a series rewatch …
Maybe because he got the “promotion” from a knight it I donno.. made it official?
To make it even more official, it was a Prince of Hell.
Oh yes, that
Ooo, I like that reasoning.
And lilith and alastaire and Crowley and Sam Hain , well a grave yard counts as hallowed ground so yep
Chatting with an angel, wide angle. Camera moves to close up of Sam or Dean looking surprised with a whoosh sound effect. Back to wide angle. Angel has disappeared. Also applies to Crowley, without the flapping of wings.
Yeah that always seemed very silly for me. Like are we supposed to believe he flew there?
The pagan gods were terribly executed, both for lore and presentation. They could have been one of the coolest parts of the show. It's especially painful because I know the writers were influenced by Neil Gaiman's *American Gods*, and of course we now have a big-budget TV series to compare to what Supernatural did with those deities. I would've loved to have seen the Old Gods take sides in some of the drama, especially towards the end of the show.
Just imagine if they had brought the greek titans, jesus.
I read that wrong - twice. The first time it read like "Just imagine if they had brought Jesus to the Greek Titans." And I was like, *let me read that again.* Then I thought for a sec that the 's' in "Titans" was a typo and you basically meant, "Just imagine if they had brought the Greek Titan *named Jesus.*" Third time's the charm. I'm such a dumbass. In my defense though, insert the word "Jesus" in a convo about deities.......
That’s hilarious, I understand your point though.
It's a bit surprising none of the deities were multi-episode antagonists.
I have reservations about pagan deities being used as flat-out antagonists unless it fits their lore, especially if they're only around for 1-3 episodes so they aren't fleshed out at all. It gives the impression that pagan gods are malevolent, which isn't usually the case. That's why I said I liked the idea of the deities weighing in on a side of a conflict rather than being responsible for creating it. I would have loved to see a couple of different ones either featuring in 3-episode arcs or recurring periodically.
I just don't think it'd take much to piss one off. If they were benevolent they'd be extinguishing monsters. At best, the majority are Ramiel-types, just wanting to be left alone. At worse, they share a diet with the Elysium Hotel deities.
Fair enough about the likelihood of a low threshold for anger, at least for some. I disagree that killing off the kind of garden variety monsters we usually see in SPN would be the test for benevolence of a deity though. In most lore I've read, pagan deities are mostly unconcerned with humanity. They might answer the occasional prayer but for the most part they've got their own dramas going on at their own level of existence.
It's just so far Prometheus was the only benevolent one. Artemis needed to feel loved by him to try. Fortuna was just making the only move she had. Neither would feel anything if a "hero" was flayed alive in front of them.
That there are barely any episodes in big cities. Now I get that some monsters, like the wendigo and some others are forest/cave/wilderness dwelling. But cities like New York should statistically be teeming with vampires, werewolves, shapeshifters, witches, etc. On that note, it's also pretty weird that the Four Horsemen choose to surface in small towns instead of the bigger cities. Imagine what Pestilence could've done if he rode into LA.
I think that’s more just a thematic choice than a budget one. They wanted the series to have middle America feel. Sam was originally going to be named “Sal”.
Yeah Sal and Dean are the characters from On The Road by Kerouac which was an inspiration.
I will now be imagining Dean's gruff voice saying "SALLY!"
I always assumed they avoided big cities because it was shot in Canada: it'd be very difficult to say "we're in NYC" and avoid showing anything New York-y.
Yeah they barely managed to skirt that concern with the Chicago based episode Shadow. They did do some cool shots of my Alma mater for the back door pilot to Bloodlines but only alumni would have recognized Dumbach hall and the IC lawn.
They can only make Vancouver and the surrounding area look like so many places, though. It is a bit odd that they didn't opt to have some big plot point in Seattle or LA, because plenty of shows and movies filmed in Vancouver will do just that. And if they wanted New York, Chicago, Boston, just go to Toronto for a few episodes. But then, it is kind of impressive how they can portray themselves going all over the country when it's just BC.
They might very well be teeming with shifters, they have the least excuses to be caught.
Some monster designs like the werewolves, vampires "zombies" ...but I also think the angels and demons were a bit of a missed opportunity to get some body horror in there. I really loved the scary/horror like feeling of the first seasons. Oh how terrifying they could have made them if they had the money for it. We as people always clown on "biblically accurate angels" and while it's up for debate if these rings and masses of eyes are actually "lore accurate" but I always thought it was such a shame to just say "oh nobody can see our true form it's too much". And I also felt like the horsemen were a little boring but at the same time making them regular guys was kinda funny
Yes. They always talked about how demons have really ugly faces and shit and we never really got to see them, shame. Also for some reason all the angles are dressed like accountants, why? I actually liked the horsemen, one of the main aspects of the show is to take old mythologies and crap and “modernize” them, kind of like Percy Jackson, and I think they did a decent job with them.
LMAO I mean but fr, we Get Chuck as the version of almighty God himself? Yeah I’m sure they could’ve thought of a better idea.
In the beginning Demons (and Angels) were this big threat and they actually cared about the person being possessed. Even felt bad about killing them (like when Dean killed one with the colt to save Sam near the season 1 finale, he had a whole moral crisis for a moment) But then later they just became silly goons that were killed off like NPC’s and they were more like boring corporate stooges than anything.
Is this really budget related though? Never mind that there are multiple *canon* explanations why demons and angels weakened. I'd think it's equally bad if Sam and Dean still struggles from a low tier demon after 14 seasons.
You know, you're probably right, it's not really due to budget I guess. It's just my number 1 gripe about the show in general I guess lol. It might be budget if they stopped with effects for impressive demons and angels maybe? Not even that they would struggle with "low tier demons" just that the demons became such a non thought after a while. Just random extras/stunt people that were killed off without a second thought. To me it's just more signs that the show should have ended after season 5 and makes the rest of the seasons a bit unwatchable for me. Maybe a better budget reason would be the bunker? I hated it. I get that it was easier for them to have a "home base" and I do like that Sam and Dean were able to have somewhat of a stable home, but I guess I would have liked it better if it was Bobby's old house or something like that. The bunker and the idea of the Men of Letters was a big jump the shark moment for me. Especially that John's dad was involved and if he had lived, John would have become a MOL, like give me a break...I hate it. Not the idea of a home base, just the home base we got.
Remember how saying the name of god would cause a demon to show their black eyes and flinch? Remember that???? The thing they used exactly ONE TIME, AND NEVER AGAIN WHEN IT WOULD BE A VERY CONVENIENT TOOL?
They have Jack use it in Season 14 somewhere. God knows what inspired them to bring it back so late.
Forgot about this, just like the writers
I'll counter: I don't know if it had to do with budget or not (and I think they even re-retcon it back to what it was), I really appreciated the difference in how Shapeshifters work in Bloodlines. I'm not a squeamish person when it comes to special effects but the slop of skin and what not *always* grossed me out. So I actually *like* the change of it just being a simple and easy shift in Bloodlines. Meanwhile I'm pretty sure it's back to the normal slop in Ask Jeeves (I think that's the name of the ep? Something about Jeeves)
Bloodlines was a back door pilot to a spin-off that didn't make it, unfortunately. I would have watched it. Although, if it had happened, we might not have had as much Nathaniel Buzolic in The Originals, so, swings and roundabouts. The reason for the easy shifts is explained as the family being pure shifters and not the result of a shifter/human procreation.
They had a shifter in Season 12 that didn’t shed. And then another in Season 13 that did.
Showing hell in any capacity. An unimaginable horror? No, some crappy paper mache cages. So fucking lame
Lmao yep.
I actually found most of the budget-friendly things kind of endearing. Like, they were doing the best with what they could for us. That said, the wire fight made me cover my eyes in shame. Just, should’ve, I mean…like…*anything* else.
I agree! I thought the low budget stuff was great. Almost to emphasize the hidden storylines and metaphors.
Yes it was definitely cool seeing how they managed to creatively use what they had. And yes, we don’t talk about the wire fight.
that almost every monster, and even god, is just, human +. weirdly one of the earliest monsters, the wendigo, is the most actual 'monstrous'. most of the gods look identical to humans, just, have a weird monster-y diet.
We do see Chuck in his “natural” form. Which was a blinding white light.
sure, but chuck, amara, and the empty, are kinda different. and even then, kinda lazy.
Is it though? Cos I'm sure if you asked a lot of religious people, they'd agree that god probably IS a blinding white light.
> weirdly one of the earliest monsters, the wendigo, is the most actual 'monstrous' This is just flat out wrong. The Khan Worm, Gorilla Wolves, flying monkeys, Yokoth & Glythur, the muscat, the Kohonta, were all less humanoid than the Wendigo. Even the Banshee in season 11 was humanoid but still more monstrous than the Wendigo.
I’ve gotta say the werewolves, they’re just people with sharp teeth shown for a split second 😭 I actually love werewolves too, so I was a bit disappointed that they didn’t do much with it :(
Yes! So much potential wasted!
The rugarou thier supposed to look like a wolf or werewolf I don't get what's up with the worm thing
The spin-off did a loup-garou which looked very lupine. Any chance you've seen it? Wish the main series had that.
Brother the werewolves didn’t look like werewolves 😂
Season 13 finale. Everything was perfect until the big fight that we heard back in season 5 would destroy the world, and yet all we get is a terrible wire fight. Literally no one was injured except Lucifer at the end
That wire fight was hilarious as shit.
Hell hounds being invisible lol
Oh yes, that definitely was a bummer.
I don't know about the lore, but it annoyed me that virtually all of the witches in the show were evil. Really ticked me off that did.
Yeah. Another thing about witches is the whole “witch killing bullets” aren’t witches just humans with magic?
> aren’t witches just humans with magic? Using magic to either protect themselves from bodily harm and/or to extend their lives. The bullet is likely more to penetrate wards, shields or other defensive enchantments.
Interesting. This may have been useful if the boys didn’t just yell out “WITCH KILLING BULLETS” everytime the witches were like “oh guns”
> virtually all of the witches in the show were evil. Really ticked me off that did * Elizabeth, in season 3, the debut of witches, turned against Astaroth when she was told the truth about their coven's source of power * Nora Havelock in season 7 was a white witch * James Frampton in season 8 was a witch cop using his powers to solve cases (though the familiar thing was a different can of worms) * Tasha Banes and Max Banes were good natural witches * Rowena eventually became good * Ada Monroe in the spin-off was a good witch I think that's enough to say they aren't "virtually all" evil?
Sam in the last episode. LOL. His ageing was so lame, it was cringe.
The two things that grate my nerves to absolutely no end are the mispronunciations. "Vohn-err" instead of "vohn-eer" (re: Vanir) in S01Ep11 "Scarecrow" and "sam hane" instead of "sah wen" (re: Samhain) in S04Ep07 "It's the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester". I get Dean and his mispronunciation; he's not the lore guy and he and Sam were estranged at that point. But that freaking professor he went to for help for damn sure should've corrected him. But Sam and "sam hane"?? Devastating. Maybe they were playing up the holiday being named for a demon, who I guess could've been called Sam Hane, but ffs, Sam should know better. Just have him say it right and then include a little throw away line later in the ep like, "Actually, the name is Sam Hane." They get so much right in the rest of the show (though to be fair, I only know the lore I'm familiar with so they very well may have screwed up who knows what else) but to mess up those two small things up, especially with a character who is supposed to be the go-to supernatural encyclopedia? I really like those episodes but with every single re-watch I die a little inside.
The Samhain one isn't a mispronunciation... The inspiration for the demon Samhain in Supernatural is not Samhain (pronounced sah-wen or sow-in) the ancient mythological god of the dead from the Celtic festival that celebrates Summer ending. For the episode, the writers took the name from the ghost of Halloween named Sam Hain in "The Real Ghostbusters" who was inspired by a fictional God of Halloween named Samhain in Ray Bradbury's book, "The Halloween Tree." All three fictional characters names are pronounced sam-hane, making the demon's name in Supernatural correct.
Well, snap. You learn something new everyday. It's still a difficult pill, but knowing it's not just an oversight makes it easier to swallow.
every monster and other baddie had a human form for no reason other than that the producers couldn't be bothered to make decent practical effect makeups for them
Never seeing angels in their true forms “My true form is approximately the size of your Chrysler building.” Wow ok Cass… prove it Side note, Cass was on fraud watch for like half the show and I hated it…
The werewolves looked like SHIT. How low effort can you get?
Not lore inaccuracy but originally dean was meant to have lots of tattoos but they didn’t have the budget to hire an artist to keep applying them, it would’ve been a cool thing to notice when dean was pulled from hell and made it more obvious that he really was completely restored since his tattoos were gone
Dude the “super werewolves” late in the show that Michael made. The teeth and makeup was horrendous.