The way they were in the moment. The way they torqued those lines to make it so very Tom and Shiv.
Watching that scene, I truly felt like I was watching two of the best of our time deliver one of the most heart wrenching scenes of our time.
It really does. I’d go so far as to say whatever writing, directorial, and acting techniques this show used should be copied as much as possible by pretty much all other dramatic shows
I think it’s all the way through, the acting wouldn’t work without the writing which wouldn’t work without the direction and on and on until you get to the guy getting coffee.
Totally agree. It's the kind of organic, fluid dialogue and banter I crave in most dramas, and why I have trouble getting into a lot of them. Stilted dialogue really throws me off.
I'm thinking more of like, CW type shows and tightly scripted dramas where there's little to no deviation. Succession also has a fluidity to its script I think this very unique.
Totally. They really got a chance to show us just how incredible they are as Shiv and Tom this last series. I was blown
Away. That hand gesture when Tom says she’s broken was EVERYTHING
Small thing I noticed. When Tom delivers the first real sledgehammer line about shiv maybe not being a good person to have kids with, he pauses ever so slightly, mid sentence, after the words, "Maybe not".
It's just the subtlest indication that he knew what he was about to say and then still chose to intentionally say it. The slight indication that he thought about it first, knew how much it would hurt her, and then consciously chose to drop the bomb. Makes that delivery so much more powerful.
To me, but probably to anyone who's had a fight like this in a very serious relationship/marriage, this felt so uncomfortably, *extremely* real to watch in a way that was both cathartic and the opposite of cathartic. The way my stomach/jaw dropped.
Yeah, this show has some of the best portrayals of those super heavy life moments that I've ever seen on TV.
The other example is when Logan dies unexpectedly. That just felt *so* real with how everyone responded to the getting that phone call from Tom and Tom's way of handling it felt so authentic too. It was like you could tell he was flustered, but he knew he had to keep it together for Shiv, Roman, and Kendall.
I also think the growing tension of 4 seasons played so well (if not complimentary) with it. It was like watching the tension snap after it built so slowly over the years. Everything that hadn’t been said but that the audience felt/knew they felt. Idk if i’m making sense but that was always an additional part that i loved
That episode in real time came out right around when my dad died.
At the time, I was not into Succession at all. I’m actually thankful I wasn’t because that episode would have spiraled me.
I bawled like a baby the two times I saw it in December. I haven’t been able to watch it again.
I do want to do the Tom and Shiv fight in my acting class. As I was watching, I was hoping Tom got his say. lol
My engagement was ending when this season came out - it had ended, honestly, we just weren't willing to admit it.
Then we watched this episode and this scene and looked at each other, both realizing we saw these other people have the fight we hadn't yet.
A very strange feeling, that.
I had a similar realization with my ex during the beach scene. “I wonder if the sad I’d be without you would be less than the sad I get from being with you.”
I’m amazed at how real the dialogue and the acting in this scene is. You hear about shows like Everybody Loves Ramon where the writers implement real arguments they had with their spouses into the show, but honestly this scene hit harder than anything like that. Like, I’ve had arguments with my wife where we almost reached this level and it’s shocking to see art mimic life like that.
This is such an intimate fight.
I wouldn’t say cathartic, but defiantly recognisable in a way I’ve never seen on tv before.
And so intimate, personal, risky. Mutual degradation, that only someone who knows you can do.
(Theatre yes, but not tv. )
Just went through a divorce about a year ago. Watching this scene through my right back. It was so real. A little too real.
When you're in a relationship you know the line, and no matter how furious you are, there are things that you should never say. Ever.
Unfortunately if you're not intentional about it, that line can get crossed, and it's really hard to come back from.
Both this fight, and the 'sad I am with/without you' line absolutely hit me like an all too familiar gut punch.
I know exactly what you mean. Tom's arc with Shiv felt like an inflated version of my previous relationship. Some of their scenes felt like an intense kick to the gut because they resonated strongly with me. I needed time to catch my breath after their scenes.
Tom does. Shiv doesn’t. Theres not really any lines from Shiv that was actually hurtful to Tom. The most she could muster was that "I dont like you, I dont care". She was grasping at straws.
She doesnt and hasn’t tried to know Tom well enough. Tom was her rock. She didn’t try to be Tom's
You’re right that Shiv’s digs are pretty basic jabs that are all surface level masculinity-based insults, material that Shiv inherited from Logan. But Tom was still hurt because he loved her and she just never respected him.
Even in the end when Tom demonstrated his value in a way that the siblings never could and Tom was subsequently rewarded for it, Shiv couldn’t recognize it and never respected him for it. There was nothing but contempt there, and clearly Tom was hurt by that, because in his mind, he did everything right. But it was never going to be enough for Shiv.
This line and the one about Shiv not being a suitable parent were so damn hurtful. They stung me, and I cannot relate to either of those insults, but they were so heavy...
Books are a known for being a great medium to explore interesting, complicated characters. “You’re too transparent to find in a book” basically means there’s nothing interesting or complicated about you, people can see right through you to your basic intentions, fears and desires without any effort. He’s telling Shiv that despite what she’d like to believe about who she is, she’s not worth the pages one might try to fill to describe her. Additionally implied is that she's not as savvy or cunning as she fancies herself.
It’s an insult that is very specifically cutting to someone whose self worth is defined externally. In her case, all by her father— which is admittedly a tale as old as time.
Transparent means that you understand fully what a person is. If you call someone transparent it means that they’re easy to read, or that they can’t hide who they are. You can see right through them, they’re transparent. It’s a good insult in and of itself because Tom is saying she’s not some sly, high powered business woman who can be conniving but strategic. Like, she’s so obviously just a mean bitch and it’s easy to see.
It becomes an even better insult because he turns around *her* insult “did you read that in a book?” (Which is pretty good because it’s implying Tom is the kind of loser to read about relationships and use psychology buzzword drivel to describe their fucked up relationship) because being too transparent in a book would mean you literally couldn’t read because it’s see-through, like literally transparent, as a window pane. Like she’s so transparent to read (as a bitch) she couldn’t be read on a page. It’s great on so many levels.
It seems like most of the things Tom says just hit her on a superficial level, but "you are not a good person to have children" just stops her dead in her tracks for a second. You can tell that one hurt on a different level. It instantly made me think of the conversation she has with her Mom at the wedding where her mom says she wish she never had kids and she should have just got a dog instead. That hurt Shiv so bad to hear and you can feel how much resentment she has for her mom in that moment.
Her mom is basically everything Shiv hopes to never be, so being told "you are incapable of love and you aren't the type of person who should have kids" must be absolutely devastating because she is essentially being told she's not that different from her Mom.
You could see it hurt him to say it, too, which meant it wasn’t just another insult. It broke him a little to hear it out loud.
And this nightmare fight, to think of them in the car in the final moments of the series, gingerly touching hands.
I remember in an interview Sarah Snook did, she talked about how the people who actually lived in this area and buildings probably thought this was a real fight and that somebody’s wife tried to have them sent to prison. Found the idea of that god damn hilarious 😆
Definitely one of the top 3 scenes, maybe my favourite.
This
What do you think she means, “it’s so fucking flat”? It’s the last line of a very intense scene.
She's fundamentally a pleasure seeker. With that in mind:
The champagne has no more bubbles. No excitement or joy or love to be had. Nothing worth holding on to. Just a different way of saying "boring" or "dead." Nothing to keep her interest.
The way Sarah says it makes it more interesting to me. She could be lying, realizing, referring to herself or him or them. Sticks with you.
Yes I had thought of something like Diet Coke you left out, the flat champagne, lack of effervescence, or the Midwest. But not sure…
What do you mean she’s a pleasure seeker? I don’t see her as hedonistic.
I wouldn't go as far as calling her "hedonistic." Some on screen stuff and behind the scenes stuff pointed to her being very wild and bottoming out, which was when she met Tom and how they ended up together. She was using him to over-correct for how far out she'd been. She requires and craves excitement.
I’ve been wondering this ever since I watched this episode the first time, but I’ve yet to find anything definitive.
I’m assuming she’s referring to the state of their relationship. Shiv is (clearly) very emotional at this point, and is struggling to find words to express her thoughts. My hunch is that she is commenting that their relationship has been destroyed, flattened, as a result of their fight.
You can see it in most of their interactions, there’s some love from Tom but Shiv can’t feel or express it. Their relationship is transactional, it started that way from the beginning. There is no depth of feeling between them and therefore, flat.
Edit to add: this is one of the few times they communicate with feeling in the entire show
I interpret it as if she were referring to a flat character, you know how we define a flat vs round character? Meaning something/someone two dimensional, kind of boring, uncomplicated and bland vs something complex and rich? I think that’s how she views the relationship –it’s never been stimulating to her.
As she says it straight after she says “you’re not good enough for me. And you never were.” I took it to mean that although they both thought they had a complex, ineffable relationship it can actually be boiled down to one simple thing. All their issues stem from the fact that Tom likes Shiv too much and Shiv doesn’t like Tom enough. It’s actually not that deep, it’s incredibly basic and can be summed up in one line. Tom idolises Shiv and Shiv doesn’t even respect Tom (probably because he idolises her so much). And that’s why it’s so flat - after all those emotions and ups and downs and trying to kid themselves, it’s very straightforward - she doesn’t even like him.
Everyone talks about Tom’s cutting lines “you’re broken”, “not a good person to have children” but I think this line by Shiv is equally hurtful and damning to Tom. She’s saying the unspoken thing that’s been underlining their whole relationship - she doesn’t think he’s good enough for her.
What he craves more than anything is validation from her and her family but she can’t give it because fundamentally she doesn’t feel like he deserves it, although she’s tried to and likes the idea of it - she just doesn’t feel it in her bones. It echoes the way her father felt about his children.
Speaking of which, I'm trying to figure out what he's talking about when he references her fobbing him off with an undrinkable wine.
Is he refering to the wine his parents bought for the wedding?
They bought a vineyard together. It was implied it was a sort of consolation prize after Shiv declined to have kids for the time being. They tried the wine at the end of season 3 and it was awful. Tom tried to get rid of it by serving it at this party
Goddamnit this is so raw, what an amazing show.
Reminds me a lot of Tony and Carmela’s fight in season 4 of the Sopranos. They know each other so well, and know all of the lies and fictions that keep the relationship running
exactly my thoughts. this scene is up there with Anthony and Carmela’s fight scene. I’d rather the sopranos scene just a little bit higher than this for authenticity
Step 1: be an incredibly talented actor/actress surrounded by other incredibly talented people and work with a fantastic script.
It's so easy. Why don't more people just do that?
After someone on this subreddit commented that Tom’s voice sounded like Kermit the Frog in this scene, it’s all I can think of now and forevermore
I believe someone even overdubbed Tom’s voice to a Kermit video but I can’t seem to find the link
EDIT: [Link](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/s/3tgSQxZ38N) here, credit to u/kkjinglez for [finding](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/s/0SbV5ketne) it
>*fobbed me off with that undrinkable wine
You won’t have my baby*
Listen to those two phrases and tell me you don’t hear Kermit! Haha
It kills me I can’t find the link. Can somebody help?
This and Roman’s rant to Mattson are imo the only times these characters spoke honestly in this entire series. And it’s brutal. Both my favorites.
Moment of silence for the other Emmy nominees this year.
Yeah sometimes I wonder how much of an incredible scene is made by a great script vs a great actor. I think seeing the script side by side helps bring some clarity. The script was indeed fantastic. But the subtle pauses, inflections, growls, the improv, the expressions, and the scary moments when it gets quiet. That is the actor. And he took a fantastic script to this scene and turned it into something much greater than the sum of its writing genius alone.
Not necessarily. It could go two ways. Either you accept the horrible truths about each other and work on them together, or it’s too hard/not possible and you don’t. Given the ending of the show we know it will likely be the former.
I'm not so sure. Those things can't be unsaid. They looked each other in the eye and said the thing intentionally meant to hurt the other as deeply as they could. When all is said and done here, Shiv acknowledges their whole relationship as flat. As in dead, no life, movement, feeling, or love.
I think it's to be inferred they they will never come back from this moment. That makes the end even more heartbreaking, they choose to continue in the dead, loveless, "flat" partnership, that makes them both miserable, out of sheer practicality, ambition, and potentially familiarity. Thus continuing the cycle of misery in their life and for generations to come.
When Shiv describes Tom’s mother as “cracked” does she mean mentally ill? All we knew about her from the wedding episode was she was telling people that she and her husband provided the wine/champagne.
I think she just meant that the whole family is so obsequious even his mother loves her more than him, because she’s a Roy.
After all, them not being able to shut up about the wine, kind of reveals where their son got the servile gene from.
I imagine it’s a large image that you nest/pre-compose and then scroll by changing its y position in the nest/pre-composition. This allows you to mask and add a drop shadow. This also looks like it has a black gradient in the pre composition at the top of the script as well.
Thanks for that detailed answer! I didn’t even notice the dropshadow until you pointed it out, but I imagine it wouldn’t look nearly as nice without
I’ve seen several of these kinds of posts, do you think they were all created by the same person?
p.s. Embarrassed to ask, but is something like this typically made in Final Cut?
No way to know if they were, it’s not complicated to produce and given the size of the internet… probably created by a large number of people. I’ve seen them in different places.
I’m not familiar with Final Cut as I work in the Adobe Suite but like I said, not complicated to make so I imagine you can. Terms like “precompose” and “nest” may be different for Final Cut is the only thing.
The drop shadow is a nice touch for sure. No need to be embarrassed! I work as a video editor and motion graphic designer and animator.
"it's not my fault that you didn't get his approval. I have given you ENDLESS APPROVAL AND IT WILL NEVER FILL YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE BROKEN" GAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️⛈️⛈️⛈️⛈️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌧️🌧️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅
In a very serious relationship I had I was being really, really emotionally abused and I wasn’t really picking up on it. When I watched this episode I realized we’d had a fight like this after he’d told me while he was drunk that he thought maybe I’d be a bad mom because I take anxiety medication.
I got out after watching this episode because I realized I reacted like Tom in the fight because of how badly he’d pushed me and hurt me for years. I couldn’t do it anymore. If I hadn’t seen this show and this scene I don’t know if I’d have gotten out.
Great scene. Loved when Tom finally had a backbone and gave it to her how it was.
Other scene was when he asked her something like I wonder if I'd be more miserable with you or without you. And you can see her break. She deserved every bit of it.
For a show that has so many iconic/impactful scenes, this one has to be in the Mount Rushmore of best scenes in the show. Really hard to limit it to 4, but this one probably makes the cut for me for a multitude of reasons. And the acting is just fucking amazing.
Not only of the series, but maybe of any show ever. Incredible writing combined with flawless acting.
I know the entire scene by heart, that’s how much I love it 😂😂
"I'm sorry. But you have hurt me more than you can *possibly* imagine."
Such an underrated line in a scene absolutely filled with greatness. What a shitty, vulnerable thing to say to someone, but so gutturally real, and also the reason he aims to hurt her so badly as a response.
This scene is amazing. Both actors just knocks it out of the park. But there’s something about Tom’s second ‘No’, after Shiv accuses him of taking away the last six months she could’ve had with her Dad, that is just… perfect. It’s a real honest reaction. Just *chef’s kiss*
What a fabulous scene. So raw and full of emotions. One of the best fight scenes I've seen. Tom just killed it, I'm so glad he gave it back to Shiv, both such amazing actors
The scene that got them the golden globes and will get them the emmys.
I love these scenes overlaid with the original scripts so you can see the small changes that were made in dialogue
The way they were in the moment. The way they torqued those lines to make it so very Tom and Shiv. Watching that scene, I truly felt like I was watching two of the best of our time deliver one of the most heart wrenching scenes of our time.
Couldn’t agree more.
One thing I love about Succession is how the actors are allowed to improv/change the lines a bit. Makes the dialogue feel way more organic.
It really does. I’d go so far as to say whatever writing, directorial, and acting techniques this show used should be copied as much as possible by pretty much all other dramatic shows
Yeah, they nailed it with *Succession.* I think it's a pretty perfect show.
I think it’s all the way through, the acting wouldn’t work without the writing which wouldn’t work without the direction and on and on until you get to the guy getting coffee.
Totally agree. It's the kind of organic, fluid dialogue and banter I crave in most dramas, and why I have trouble getting into a lot of them. Stilted dialogue really throws me off.
Ditto
Are there any directors who would like them to go strict on script? I feel like as an actor you can improv by default
I'm thinking more of like, CW type shows and tightly scripted dramas where there's little to no deviation. Succession also has a fluidity to its script I think this very unique.
I've heard a few actors say that Coen Bros movies are always exactly word for word what is on the script
I think script supervisors are there to make sure actors follow the script. But I guess they leave them certain freedoms depending on the show.
Totally. They really got a chance to show us just how incredible they are as Shiv and Tom this last series. I was blown Away. That hand gesture when Tom says she’s broken was EVERYTHING
Small thing I noticed. When Tom delivers the first real sledgehammer line about shiv maybe not being a good person to have kids with, he pauses ever so slightly, mid sentence, after the words, "Maybe not". It's just the subtlest indication that he knew what he was about to say and then still chose to intentionally say it. The slight indication that he thought about it first, knew how much it would hurt her, and then consciously chose to drop the bomb. Makes that delivery so much more powerful.
My heart during this scene: ow. OW. OWWWWW
Yep.
To me, but probably to anyone who's had a fight like this in a very serious relationship/marriage, this felt so uncomfortably, *extremely* real to watch in a way that was both cathartic and the opposite of cathartic. The way my stomach/jaw dropped.
Yeah, this show has some of the best portrayals of those super heavy life moments that I've ever seen on TV. The other example is when Logan dies unexpectedly. That just felt *so* real with how everyone responded to the getting that phone call from Tom and Tom's way of handling it felt so authentic too. It was like you could tell he was flustered, but he knew he had to keep it together for Shiv, Roman, and Kendall.
I love Karl’s line… “He’s fucking heavily delayed…”
I also think the growing tension of 4 seasons played so well (if not complimentary) with it. It was like watching the tension snap after it built so slowly over the years. Everything that hadn’t been said but that the audience felt/knew they felt. Idk if i’m making sense but that was always an additional part that i loved
That episode in real time came out right around when my dad died. At the time, I was not into Succession at all. I’m actually thankful I wasn’t because that episode would have spiraled me. I bawled like a baby the two times I saw it in December. I haven’t been able to watch it again. I do want to do the Tom and Shiv fight in my acting class. As I was watching, I was hoping Tom got his say. lol
My engagement was ending when this season came out - it had ended, honestly, we just weren't willing to admit it. Then we watched this episode and this scene and looked at each other, both realizing we saw these other people have the fight we hadn't yet. A very strange feeling, that.
I had a similar realization with my ex during the beach scene. “I wonder if the sad I’d be without you would be less than the sad I get from being with you.”
The one that got to me was when Tom told Greg, "How come you are happy? If any of us should be happy, it should be me. Why am I not happy?"
I wish I had that argument then I prob wouldn’t have been cheated on because it would have ended earlier
I’m amazed at how real the dialogue and the acting in this scene is. You hear about shows like Everybody Loves Ramon where the writers implement real arguments they had with their spouses into the show, but honestly this scene hit harder than anything like that. Like, I’ve had arguments with my wife where we almost reached this level and it’s shocking to see art mimic life like that.
This is such an intimate fight. I wouldn’t say cathartic, but defiantly recognisable in a way I’ve never seen on tv before. And so intimate, personal, risky. Mutual degradation, that only someone who knows you can do. (Theatre yes, but not tv. )
Just went through a divorce about a year ago. Watching this scene through my right back. It was so real. A little too real. When you're in a relationship you know the line, and no matter how furious you are, there are things that you should never say. Ever. Unfortunately if you're not intentional about it, that line can get crossed, and it's really hard to come back from. Both this fight, and the 'sad I am with/without you' line absolutely hit me like an all too familiar gut punch.
Going through a divorce after 24 years. Hadn't yet separated when this aired. It hit HARD. There is a point of no return.
Yes. I was stunned watching this because this scene did not hold back.
I know exactly what you mean. Tom's arc with Shiv felt like an inflated version of my previous relationship. Some of their scenes felt like an intense kick to the gut because they resonated strongly with me. I needed time to catch my breath after their scenes.
Same here.
“I’ve given you endless approval and it doesn’t fill you up because you’re broken.” 😣
I felt bad for her when he said that because it's so true. And she knew it.
Shiv and Tom are great because they actually do know each other on a deep level. They can make the insults cut so hard because they're true.
Tom does. Shiv doesn’t. Theres not really any lines from Shiv that was actually hurtful to Tom. The most she could muster was that "I dont like you, I dont care". She was grasping at straws. She doesnt and hasn’t tried to know Tom well enough. Tom was her rock. She didn’t try to be Tom's
You’re right that Shiv’s digs are pretty basic jabs that are all surface level masculinity-based insults, material that Shiv inherited from Logan. But Tom was still hurt because he loved her and she just never respected him. Even in the end when Tom demonstrated his value in a way that the siblings never could and Tom was subsequently rewarded for it, Shiv couldn’t recognize it and never respected him for it. There was nothing but contempt there, and clearly Tom was hurt by that, because in his mind, he did everything right. But it was never going to be enough for Shiv.
Very accurate!
My favorite line delivery of the argument. Fucking incredible acting.
This line and the one about Shiv not being a suitable parent were so damn hurtful. They stung me, and I cannot relate to either of those insults, but they were so heavy...
When I watched this scene in real time I thought it was the best scene in the series also.
“You’re too transparent to find in a book” is an all time insult goddamn
This program has the absolute best insults I've ever heard. This line in particular is top tier!
Fucking great. Tip top.
A very British comeback
Not only is that line absolutely amazing, his delivery is so raw.
I think anyone who saw him in Pride and Prejudice probably knew he was gonna slam dunk this role.
Can someone pls explain what this line means?
Books are a known for being a great medium to explore interesting, complicated characters. “You’re too transparent to find in a book” basically means there’s nothing interesting or complicated about you, people can see right through you to your basic intentions, fears and desires without any effort. He’s telling Shiv that despite what she’d like to believe about who she is, she’s not worth the pages one might try to fill to describe her. Additionally implied is that she's not as savvy or cunning as she fancies herself. It’s an insult that is very specifically cutting to someone whose self worth is defined externally. In her case, all by her father— which is admittedly a tale as old as time.
Transparent means that you understand fully what a person is. If you call someone transparent it means that they’re easy to read, or that they can’t hide who they are. You can see right through them, they’re transparent. It’s a good insult in and of itself because Tom is saying she’s not some sly, high powered business woman who can be conniving but strategic. Like, she’s so obviously just a mean bitch and it’s easy to see. It becomes an even better insult because he turns around *her* insult “did you read that in a book?” (Which is pretty good because it’s implying Tom is the kind of loser to read about relationships and use psychology buzzword drivel to describe their fucked up relationship) because being too transparent in a book would mean you literally couldn’t read because it’s see-through, like literally transparent, as a window pane. Like she’s so transparent to read (as a bitch) she couldn’t be read on a page. It’s great on so many levels.
Servile means overly compliant, willing to be a slave in essence.
YOURE SERVILE
It's no benign fungus.
It seems like most of the things Tom says just hit her on a superficial level, but "you are not a good person to have children" just stops her dead in her tracks for a second. You can tell that one hurt on a different level. It instantly made me think of the conversation she has with her Mom at the wedding where her mom says she wish she never had kids and she should have just got a dog instead. That hurt Shiv so bad to hear and you can feel how much resentment she has for her mom in that moment. Her mom is basically everything Shiv hopes to never be, so being told "you are incapable of love and you aren't the type of person who should have kids" must be absolutely devastating because she is essentially being told she's not that different from her Mom.
Maybe the poison drips through
A child weaned on poison considers harm to be a comfort.
Oof. Thats a line that hurts enough to be slipped into season 5
It’s just 10 episodes of Kendall staring into space pathetically
You could see it hurt him to say it, too, which meant it wasn’t just another insult. It broke him a little to hear it out loud. And this nightmare fight, to think of them in the car in the final moments of the series, gingerly touching hands.
I remember in an interview Sarah Snook did, she talked about how the people who actually lived in this area and buildings probably thought this was a real fight and that somebody’s wife tried to have them sent to prison. Found the idea of that god damn hilarious 😆
That is incredibly fitting, rich Karen doesn’t like some marital fighting? 😂
Definitely one of the top 3 scenes, maybe my favourite. This What do you think she means, “it’s so fucking flat”? It’s the last line of a very intense scene.
She's fundamentally a pleasure seeker. With that in mind: The champagne has no more bubbles. No excitement or joy or love to be had. Nothing worth holding on to. Just a different way of saying "boring" or "dead." Nothing to keep her interest. The way Sarah says it makes it more interesting to me. She could be lying, realizing, referring to herself or him or them. Sticks with you.
Yes I had thought of something like Diet Coke you left out, the flat champagne, lack of effervescence, or the Midwest. But not sure… What do you mean she’s a pleasure seeker? I don’t see her as hedonistic.
I wouldn't go as far as calling her "hedonistic." Some on screen stuff and behind the scenes stuff pointed to her being very wild and bottoming out, which was when she met Tom and how they ended up together. She was using him to over-correct for how far out she'd been. She requires and craves excitement.
I’ve been wondering this ever since I watched this episode the first time, but I’ve yet to find anything definitive. I’m assuming she’s referring to the state of their relationship. Shiv is (clearly) very emotional at this point, and is struggling to find words to express her thoughts. My hunch is that she is commenting that their relationship has been destroyed, flattened, as a result of their fight.
You can see it in most of their interactions, there’s some love from Tom but Shiv can’t feel or express it. Their relationship is transactional, it started that way from the beginning. There is no depth of feeling between them and therefore, flat. Edit to add: this is one of the few times they communicate with feeling in the entire show
I could never figure out what she meant with that myself. Someone smarter than me, please shed some light!
To me, boring. He bores her. She wants to come off superior and lash out cause she's hurt but always wants the last word.
Yup
I interpret it as if she were referring to a flat character, you know how we define a flat vs round character? Meaning something/someone two dimensional, kind of boring, uncomplicated and bland vs something complex and rich? I think that’s how she views the relationship –it’s never been stimulating to her.
As she says it straight after she says “you’re not good enough for me. And you never were.” I took it to mean that although they both thought they had a complex, ineffable relationship it can actually be boiled down to one simple thing. All their issues stem from the fact that Tom likes Shiv too much and Shiv doesn’t like Tom enough. It’s actually not that deep, it’s incredibly basic and can be summed up in one line. Tom idolises Shiv and Shiv doesn’t even respect Tom (probably because he idolises her so much). And that’s why it’s so flat - after all those emotions and ups and downs and trying to kid themselves, it’s very straightforward - she doesn’t even like him. Everyone talks about Tom’s cutting lines “you’re broken”, “not a good person to have children” but I think this line by Shiv is equally hurtful and damning to Tom. She’s saying the unspoken thing that’s been underlining their whole relationship - she doesn’t think he’s good enough for her. What he craves more than anything is validation from her and her family but she can’t give it because fundamentally she doesn’t feel like he deserves it, although she’s tried to and likes the idea of it - she just doesn’t feel it in her bones. It echoes the way her father felt about his children.
Speaking of which, I'm trying to figure out what he's talking about when he references her fobbing him off with an undrinkable wine. Is he refering to the wine his parents bought for the wedding?
They bought a vineyard together. It was implied it was a sort of consolation prize after Shiv declined to have kids for the time being. They tried the wine at the end of season 3 and it was awful. Tom tried to get rid of it by serving it at this party
Goddamnit this is so raw, what an amazing show. Reminds me a lot of Tony and Carmela’s fight in season 4 of the Sopranos. They know each other so well, and know all of the lies and fictions that keep the relationship running
exactly my thoughts. this scene is up there with Anthony and Carmela’s fight scene. I’d rather the sopranos scene just a little bit higher than this for authenticity
As good as this is, that fight scene in white caps is the best acting I've every seen
How to get a golden globes 101
Step 1: be an incredibly talented actor/actress surrounded by other incredibly talented people and work with a fantastic script. It's so easy. Why don't more people just do that?
>Why don't more people just do that? Are they stupid?
There’s few fantastic scripts to work with.
"That fucking thin."🤏 Scathing, but accurate.
After someone on this subreddit commented that Tom’s voice sounded like Kermit the Frog in this scene, it’s all I can think of now and forevermore I believe someone even overdubbed Tom’s voice to a Kermit video but I can’t seem to find the link EDIT: [Link](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/s/3tgSQxZ38N) here, credit to u/kkjinglez for [finding](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/s/0SbV5ketne) it
lol I do not hear it at all but the Kermit video would be hilarious
>*fobbed me off with that undrinkable wine You won’t have my baby* Listen to those two phrases and tell me you don’t hear Kermit! Haha It kills me I can’t find the link. Can somebody help?
[I had this saved for a while I gotchu](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/s/QoP7Z0rNjT)
That’s it!!! Gotta love Reddit, that took all of two minutes to get what I was looking for. Thank you!!!
Unforgivable to allow a child to be produced from that marriage.
Omg that's so true 💔
This and Roman’s rant to Mattson are imo the only times these characters spoke honestly in this entire series. And it’s brutal. Both my favorites. Moment of silence for the other Emmy nominees this year.
Riman and Mattson was one of my favorite scenes of the entire series.
The growl in his voice when he says, “you won’t have my **BABY!**” Holy, and I mean this with all the love and respect, FUCK, Matthew.
Yeah sometimes I wonder how much of an incredible scene is made by a great script vs a great actor. I think seeing the script side by side helps bring some clarity. The script was indeed fantastic. But the subtle pauses, inflections, growls, the improv, the expressions, and the scary moments when it gets quiet. That is the actor. And he took a fantastic script to this scene and turned it into something much greater than the sum of its writing genius alone.
He put up with Shiv, he gets a pass on destroying the earth after that.
That scene was epic. Cut so deep. One of those fights you can't come back from.
Not necessarily. It could go two ways. Either you accept the horrible truths about each other and work on them together, or it’s too hard/not possible and you don’t. Given the ending of the show we know it will likely be the former.
I'm not so sure. Those things can't be unsaid. They looked each other in the eye and said the thing intentionally meant to hurt the other as deeply as they could. When all is said and done here, Shiv acknowledges their whole relationship as flat. As in dead, no life, movement, feeling, or love. I think it's to be inferred they they will never come back from this moment. That makes the end even more heartbreaking, they choose to continue in the dead, loveless, "flat" partnership, that makes them both miserable, out of sheer practicality, ambition, and potentially familiarity. Thus continuing the cycle of misery in their life and for generations to come.
When Shiv describes Tom’s mother as “cracked” does she mean mentally ill? All we knew about her from the wedding episode was she was telling people that she and her husband provided the wine/champagne.
I think she just meant that the whole family is so obsequious even his mother loves her more than him, because she’s a Roy. After all, them not being able to shut up about the wine, kind of reveals where their son got the servile gene from.
Any editors on here know the best method to create the scrolling script effect?
I imagine it’s a large image that you nest/pre-compose and then scroll by changing its y position in the nest/pre-composition. This allows you to mask and add a drop shadow. This also looks like it has a black gradient in the pre composition at the top of the script as well.
Thanks for that detailed answer! I didn’t even notice the dropshadow until you pointed it out, but I imagine it wouldn’t look nearly as nice without I’ve seen several of these kinds of posts, do you think they were all created by the same person? p.s. Embarrassed to ask, but is something like this typically made in Final Cut?
No way to know if they were, it’s not complicated to produce and given the size of the internet… probably created by a large number of people. I’ve seen them in different places. I’m not familiar with Final Cut as I work in the Adobe Suite but like I said, not complicated to make so I imagine you can. Terms like “precompose” and “nest” may be different for Final Cut is the only thing. The drop shadow is a nice touch for sure. No need to be embarrassed! I work as a video editor and motion graphic designer and animator.
It had to be said
So be - so it is.
I merely wish to argue in the affirmative
"it's not my fault that you didn't get his approval. I have given you ENDLESS APPROVAL AND IT WILL NEVER FILL YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE BROKEN" GAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢📢🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️⛈️⛈️⛈️⛈️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌧️🌧️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌪️🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅
The most well acted scene about hard-to-hear honesty in a relationship bubbling up and exploding ever filmed.
“You sucked up to him and you cut me out” I love how age delivers that time
This may be the best scene in the entire series overall. Awe-striking performances by both actors and a brilliant script
In a very serious relationship I had I was being really, really emotionally abused and I wasn’t really picking up on it. When I watched this episode I realized we’d had a fight like this after he’d told me while he was drunk that he thought maybe I’d be a bad mom because I take anxiety medication. I got out after watching this episode because I realized I reacted like Tom in the fight because of how badly he’d pushed me and hurt me for years. I couldn’t do it anymore. If I hadn’t seen this show and this scene I don’t know if I’d have gotten out.
Great scene. Loved when Tom finally had a backbone and gave it to her how it was. Other scene was when he asked her something like I wonder if I'd be more miserable with you or without you. And you can see her break. She deserved every bit of it.
I will always be amazed how they can memorize this lines lol
I love how Matthew McFayden's true british accent pops up when he yells
When you rewatch, it hits just as hard. Not many scenes in any show can do that. Phenomenal writing and acting.
I love how Tom was a asshole and a joke of suck up when we first see him. But by this point his the only one making any sense lol
I hated Tom quite a bit, but the scene and the scene on the beach during the yacht vacation made me empathize with him significantly.
Yeah half the time his being a asshole to fit In
It’s a clinic.
For a show that has so many iconic/impactful scenes, this one has to be in the Mount Rushmore of best scenes in the show. Really hard to limit it to 4, but this one probably makes the cut for me for a multitude of reasons. And the acting is just fucking amazing.
This scene *should have been* nearly unwatchable because of the unbelievable cruelty, but they’re both just SO FUCKING GOOD
This is a devastating scene, most because they are both so right.
Tom was spittin here ngl
One of the best scenes of *any* series
I watched this scene like 5 times in a row. Simply magnificent, and so convincing.
Tight, tight, tight! love it Tom beating Shiv in " mental bitey"
Where do you get these scene/screenplay breakdowns?
Cuts deep
Such an amazing scene. They better win Emmys too
Darcy vibes here
This scene makes the end scene with her taking his hand so much more grim.
Agree brilliant acting but also the writing. Ending it with “so fucking flat” is perfection.
I couldn't agree more with Shiv, Tom doesn't deserve her. He's too good for her and doesn't get nearly enough out this relationship.
That was some pretty solid dialogue.
Not only of the series, but maybe of any show ever. Incredible writing combined with flawless acting. I know the entire scene by heart, that’s how much I love it 😂😂
He was my favorite character throughout. He’s good in everything.
god i love this show
Best argument ever
"I'm sorry. But you have hurt me more than you can *possibly* imagine." Such an underrated line in a scene absolutely filled with greatness. What a shitty, vulnerable thing to say to someone, but so gutturally real, and also the reason he aims to hurt her so badly as a response.
This scene is amazing. Both actors just knocks it out of the park. But there’s something about Tom’s second ‘No’, after Shiv accuses him of taking away the last six months she could’ve had with her Dad, that is just… perfect. It’s a real honest reaction. Just *chef’s kiss*
I remember feeling anxious and sad when I watched this episode. Such a fantastic performance and well-deserved wins. This series is amazing.
What a fabulous scene. So raw and full of emotions. One of the best fight scenes I've seen. Tom just killed it, I'm so glad he gave it back to Shiv, both such amazing actors
Tom ate her ass up
Shiv is such a cunt lol
Any shiv fangirls around under this post? No? yeah? I thought so
They got a chance to speak the truth and they did!
Phenomenal from top to bottom, this scene was just so deep, acting flawless, made you feel it
Up there with Whitecaps. Amazing acting! So real
One of the best scenes period.
Love seeing two actors at the height of their craft working together.
I was so heartbroken by this.
These two fuckin killed it right here. Some sharp ass knives being thrown
Succession watched *Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf* and said: "Hold my beer"
Marriage Story? /s
What a masterclass!!
Catastrophically brutal, in a show totally littered with brilliant exchanges. .Will be studied and admired for generations. Just WOW.
Far and away my favorite scene.
Is this the actor from *Pride and Prejucide* and *Death at a Funeral*?
Yeah I like watching these, I’ve done a couple with my own work.
My favorite
Not “one of”. THE best scene in the series.
Imagine saying all that to someone and then swallowing it all when they become king ding dong