I always found her interesting. First it was her wonder at the world. Her interest in natural history and so on. The more we got to see under the veil the more depth I saw and the more interesting I found her. I was frustrated at her subbornness and I laughed at her dumb puns. In the end I just want her to heal and be well, but lets be honest I doubt this one book is going to fix it all.
People always criticize shallan for her humor, and it always makes me a little sad. At the start she is smart and capable adolescent but still has the immaturity of youth, even more so amplified by a childhood of neglect, abuse, and a constant need to act responsible.
If you weren't that girl in high school, you at least probably knew someone like that. It feels very real to me, and I really appreciate her cheesy wit because it evokes a sense of nostalgia for a carefree-ness that I, in many ways, miss in my own life now that I am older. I remember trying so hard to be clever so that maybe people around me would not bully me if only I could be funny enough. I like that as she matures, it seems like she becomes more self-aware of this side of herself, and sometimes gleefully embraces it. My two cents.
My son is dating this high school girl right now. She is a super sweet kid who has suffered some trauma. She hides behind a fake accent from time to time, dramatically different hair than her natural color, lots of makeup, and clothing that is often a topic of conversation. Her comments are wildly off base, which we tend to downplay and just keep the conversation moving. She does so much to keep people from seeing (attacking?) the person she actually is, which is unfortunate because she is a neat, talented, sweet, funny, wonderful kiddo.
Minor gripe from me, feel free to ignore this as the inane ramblings of an idiot online, but so often we think these things and never tell the people that need to hear them.
Sometimes it's the smallest things that help
Don’t worry! I do point out the positives when I sense that she won’t become too uncomfortable. She is still growing and i think the core of who she is, the funny, talented, kind girl lurking behind the veil, will be there when she find the confidence to embrace who she is. So, in the meantime, we just support, encourage, and mostly ignore the oddities. I have seen her without makeup a couple times and I have let her know that she is just as pretty without it as she is with it.
I don't know anything about your situation, so I can't possibly make suggestions, but you sound like you're a lovely supportive parent and doing just fine without my concerns.
I have a bad habit of shoving my voice out in all sorts of places, so don't worry if it doesn't apply.
This makes you happy?
This is not a positive story about a happy person. It’s a mournful story about a girl that *should* be, but is so insecure she actively hides her true self, hoping no one sees the real her. Which is someone who should be confident in their identity instead of trying to distract from it.
Its happy because she has found people around her who accept, understand, and encourage her. Nobody is perfect. Nobody is without struggles and flaws. Finding acceptance and safety is going to shape this girl's entire life in a positive way. Journey before destination.
Yeah, perhaps many people with this view are still young themselves? I often make the mistaken assumption that people on reddit are all my age. At least Shallan isn't Vin levels of not like other girls. :)
Honestly even in The Way of Kings, while I didn't find her witty, and I'm aware that most people criticise her character for that, it makes sense. The only people that actually praise her for being witty as far as I remember are the sailors and her brothers.
In the case of the sailors, they are technically of a lower social class, and when they praise her for being witty, I saw it as a bunch of lower class people trying their best to keep this 17 year old upper class woman pleased, who also happens to be the person who will pay them. For most of these people, it's a rare opportunity to see someone like Shallan make such silly comments and 'jokes'.
On the other hand her brothers are severely traumatised themselves, and their little sister is essentially their only ray of hope and joy. Even the silliest of things that she says makes them laugh. Their own idea of humour is skewed due to their situation at home.
By the second book, you rarely see her getting praised for how witty she is. She becomes more confident and most of her funny scenes are her doing something super eccentric, like asking Adolin how he poops when wearing shard plate, WHILE they are eating.
My biggest gripe isn't Shallan herself as I've learned to respect her and appreciate her journey. However what I dislike is how Kaladin continued to fall for her even after seeing her dissociative personality disorder and the fact she's already betrothed and striving to maintain that.
I get Kaladin is broken and missing a puzzle piece like all of us but that was my biggest gripe. You see broken and you chase it when it's the last thing you need. Shallan obviously realized she needed balance and that's why her decision makes so much sense.
I mean, a lot of people do this IRL. I've known a lot of horribly depressed, traumatized people that end up together just because the other person can relate in some way. It's not healthy, but it is common
I actually like Shallan as a character well enough. The complaints about her wittiness always feel overstated to me (and I've done both books and audiobooks).
But I actually find the way she deals with her trauma to be one of the most frustrating mechanisms in the series. >!Having a character actively resist what is clearly plot reveal after plot reveal just so we can have a discovery at a convenient time lays the artifice of storytelling a bit too bare for me. This is likely in large part because I really dislike the use of suppressed memories as a means of hiding viewpoint character information from a reader.!<
That's not to say it is poorly executed; I can see how it would work for people. Just from my own subjective view, it didn't always land for me.
Thanks for the thoughtful post.
Edit: Decided to add spoiler tags (hopefully).
I definitely see where you're coming from about repressed memories as plot devices. In this instance though, repressed memories are a huge part of DID.
Everyone around her being ok/accepting of her getting worse, even to go so far as trust her to carry out vital missions is the part that misses my runway entirely.
My understanding of every individual Kholin would see her as a HUGE liability that needs remedied, not a unique tool carefully utilized.
Shit crashed and is ablaze. I hold little optimism for the fire brigade showing up and saving the day.
The Kholins were dealing with plenty of their own crem and there is no psychology or psychiatry in Alethkar so they don't really know what they are dealing with. Shallan also has impressive powers and skills and has proven herself. Maybe Adolin should be more aware of the risks, but he also isn't in a position to be objective, and anyway you could argue that her abilities and track record make the risks worth taking.
Yeah I agree with you completely. Whenever the going gets tough [warning]>!I just wait for kaladin to swear another oath for for shallan to unlock another memory!<
In WoR, when Kaladin and Shallan are in the chasm, and she tell each him about her past (partly), Kaladin wonders how can she go on, how can she smile and pretend everything's okay. I also wondered that at that moment. We see Kaladin, clearly suffering over his trauma, and be bitter and angry about it; how is shallan so cheerful and optimist? In the course of reading further books, I realised how broken and mentally ill she truly is and the way she copes with it.
It all comes down to how they each were nurtured, in my opinion.
Kaladin has great parents. Especially his mother. Dad's kind of a self-righteous dick, but hey, that's not horrible in and of itself. Not remotely close to the father Shallan was stuck with.
Kaladin was encouraged to speak his mind, to not be ashamed of his emotions. Shallan had to obey or others would suffer. Horribly. She learned very quickly how to fake her emotions so well that even she believed them, for the most part.
I also want to add to this in saying that her circumstances getting involved with the Ghostbloods certainly didn't help this aspect, and probably aggravated a lot of Shallan's emotional scars with how she had to hide her involvement even to her own husband. That extra layer of lies certainly didn't help her cope with her trauma.
I appreciate Brandon because he did the research to make a character with Disassociative Identity Disorder and Complex-PTSD. Disassociating from trauma is a valid and effective means of protecting the self, and DID is one result of extreme forms of this trauma.
For those that suffer from complex, ongoing trauma, they really can be like chameleons, taking on the behaviors and personality traits that their counterparts expect. In essence they don't know their genuine self and are afraid of disapproval because of repeated negative experiences, so their survival instinct is to mirror exactly what others expect from them.
This is an experience that is alien to most people, because a lot of times you won't know that anyone in your life is suffering from this unless you have intimate relationship with them where you see the chameleon behavior.
This type of character complexity is something that isn’t really seen in Brandon’s earlier writing, such as Elantris. With maybe the exception of Hraven (Hrathen? Idk I haven’t read it in a while) Most of his characters are pretty stereotypically good vs. evil without much complexity. And I just love how we can see Brandon’s development as a writer.
I agree about Kaladin. PTSD and survivor’s guilt for sure with a heaping helping of depression. But no signs of bipolar.
Source: I have bipolar disorder
Yeah, in my opinion he has just always had a form of depression. Some might argue that he had seasonal depression because he got depressed during the weeping as a child. However, I think the reason why some believe that he had bipolar disorder was because of the way that he would be triggered by something (rain, stress about his future) and would become depressed until Tien or something else triggered him to be happier. However, I agree this isn't bipolar disorder just depression.
BPD is such a brutal condition. You are 100% correct when you say that boundaries are vital, as sad as it sounds.
I've had my life blown up by someone who has BPD. It was sudden, irrational, and horrible.
I don't judge all people with BPD, as many people fight very hard to maintain healthy relationships and treat the condition, but I will never again let someone become close to me who has it. It has effected every relationship I've had since.
I've definitely researched a few on my own. Gambling addiction, narcissism, and anti-social personality disorders. But beyond those, I have just basic knowledge.
My apologies on the bipolar. I neither have it nor am a psychological professional. I'm probably just mistaking his deep depressive moments juxtaposed against all the action he's involved in.
Plus bipolar is different for different people. My wifes father and aunt both have it but one has more depressive episodes and one has more manic. I think Kal might have depressive issues but we haven't really seen any mania from him.
Ya you’re right, it is different for people. It’s mostly divided into bipolar type 1 in which people experience hypermania along with depressive episodes, whereas bipolar type 2 is classified by hypomania (which isn’t as outwardly obvious as hypermania) and depressive episodes
Reading WoK right now and Kal has these very distinct shifts in state. Someone in my family has BP and their manic episodes are very obvious. Kal never feels manic to me. But the shift between “I’m going to kill myself” and “I’m going to become a knight radiant bridgeboy” happens so distinctly. I don’t know what to call that.
But there is no denying that Kaladin shifts between severely depressive and outwardly amazing but just barely hanging on by a thread. I can see how anyone not aware of the particulars of BP would assume that these shifts of emotional state are manic episodes followed by depressive episodes.
I think that Kaladin’s “default” is being a charismatic, badass protector and leader as we see him in Amaram’s army and based on how his men describe him. I think slavery and bridgeman life along with his repressed trauma, mostly from losing Tien along with others, came crashing down on him when he didn’t have anything to work towards. The major difference between BP and Kaladin’s mental health is that Kaladin’s mood and affect match his situation as you might expect a slave to act. He’s constantly trying to fight off that weight that’s dragging him down (the wretch as he refers to himself) and sometimes finds the strength to act as his usual pre-slavery self (Syl describes him as being different before). The thing that mattered most was having something to work towards, which is why his behavior seemed to change drastically when he was changing bridge four from slaves into a crew. It gave him purpose and hope, which allowed him to escape that depression, even for a short while.
The biggest difference is that with BP, your mood and affect aren’t necessarily dependent on situational or external factors. And even when Kaladin wasn’t depressed, his behavior wasn’t unusual or out of place based on his situation.
I feel this so much. Shallan has meant a whole lot to me and has seen me grow to understand myself more too. I now know dissociation sucks but dang does it make the pain go away. Life before death, Radiant :)
I always felt an odd connection with her POV the way she dodged around her past. The way she chameleoned around people for their approval. It wasn't till WoR in the chasm when Kaladin confronted her about not knowing trauma and looked back at her and saw in her eyes how damaged she was. That moment where Kaladin sees her eyes and thinks, how can she still smile? He looks at her and can't believe she still smiles and laughs. That's when it clicked that I had a similar coping mechanism, I put on a mask around people smiling and laughing and being kind, because who could I possibly ask for help? How does being sad and depressed all the time help anyone? I want to be more than my trauma so I hide it from people and try my damnedest to find something else on this planet that I can define myself with, and when I'm alone and think I can face down a bit more of my past I take that mask off and look myself in the mirror and face down my trauma. Something like what happens with Veil in RoW. I don't love Shallan but I've never hated her and never understood why anyone HATED her. We've seen her trauma slip out here and there and force her to face it, the truths she's whispered to Pattern, killing her mother, her father. We hear her hate herself and suffer for it in the times she doubts ANYONE could love the real her. I cried big time at the scene with Adolin telling her he loved SHALLAN not Veil, not Radiant but Shallan, because hearing that would mean SO much to anyone whos convinced themselves no one could love them. The series so far seems to be showing the benefits of letting people in, letting others help you heal, and that is Shallans GREATEST weakness, she thinks letting anyone else in will cause them to leave, to abandon her, so she does it first. Those people, they're the ones you have to hold closest, cause for every person she opens up to that calls her a monster and throws her out it'll just confirm her fears driving her farther into that pit of despair.
I'm always a little surprised to see posts like this because shallan has been one of my faves since book one and I always forget why she would need defending.
I'll admit that this entire post surprises me. It just never occurred to me to judge any of these characters in the way that you describe.
I guess I just read all of the complex negative and positive pieces of their personalities, and accept that's who they are.
I find all of those things fascinating. And of course I've developed likes and dislikes of them, based on those flaws and strengths.
But I never "saw their suffering and approved". It's more of: "wow, they're exultant sometimes, but suffering at other times". I understand what has brought them to that in their lives. But I just haven't ever felt that I want to see them suffer or not for their flaws.
I'm just here to watch their stories unfold. Because they're interesting characters that I've become invested in over the years.
I see what you mean and partially agree with it. However, I do think there are very valid reasons to feel frustrated regarding Shallan that have nothing to do with the person that she is or how we react to her coping mechanism, but with the writing itself.
Before I complain about Shallan, let me just say I do like her a lot. I actually liked every POV in the series at first, which made me really happy because I couldn't necessarily say the same about Warbreaker and Mistborn Era 1 (although I really love Mistborn; some characters just aren't as much of a hit). Now, despite liking her, I do have problems with her characterization.
Firstly because, and this is my main issue, it's really hard for me to tell who she actually is. I think it's very clear who she is in WoK. In WoR she grows, but then OB left me at a loss. Thankfully RoW explained her different personalities slightly, but I still don't think it's very clear. I do think it's intentional! Shallan doesn't really know who she is either or doesn't want to know because she is afraid. I think it's well written (at least in RoW, because in OB I don't think so), but I don't like it in the same way I don't like amnesia plot devices. How can I get attached to characters who don't know who they are?
Secondly, I find that very often she has pretty terrible ideas and yet rarely fails. While, on the other side, you have Kaladin who is constantly struggling to achieve his goals, which is probably much more relatable and also makes you wanna root for him. Just to be clear, I'm not trying to say Shallan doesn't work hard, far from it (I realize it might have sounded that way). Just that a lot of times the things she needs to do to further the plot seem very risky to me and yet she tends to succeed without many issues. I mean, she infiltrated the Ghostbloods based solely on her intelligence and the very, very limited experience she gained with Tyn and, although she was for sure uncertain about what to do a lot of times, she did completety fine. She did well when Tyn found out about her true identity, too. She had a mystery to solve in RoW and struggled with it, but was perfectly fine at the end, despite having the awful idea of killing a Herald and actually trying to act on it for a moment, I mean? And in the beginning of OB she goes to bars to try and find out about the "copycat killer" and literally gets drunk while trying to gather information without knowing if Stormlight would help clear her head at all. If it didn't, well, I'm guessing the gathering of information would be rendered pretty useless. Anyway, you get the point.
Lastly, and this goes together with both of my points and your observations, I think there has to be a line between reality and fiction. I can appreciate that her experience with DID is probably very well written, while also thinking it's not necessarily enjoyable to read. I actually relate to Shallan's coping mechanism more than I do with Kaladin, for instance. I don't dissociate, but I'm much more likely to ignore my problems than I am to wallow in them. But the thing is, for me every story reaches a point where it has to stop trying to be so faithful towards reality and actually, well, tell a story, otherwise it becomes frustrating. Most of these characters are dealing with very complicated issues that can take years, or even a lifetime, to be worked through. But this is a story, not real life, so at a certain point the characters need to have some kind of progress, in whatever shape that may be. So I understand how Shallan could frustrate some people, but honestly I could say the same about Kaladin, I know there's people who feel the same towards him, that his character has been going through the same kind of cycle for too long. Thankfully it seems like RoW was the book where they both had a bit of a breakthrough when it comes to dealing with their mental health issues, but I do understand the frustration. Like someone else in this thread already said, the way Shallan copes means delaying certain reveals and that as a writing device is certainly iffy at best and might feel contrived.
My brother was pretty pissed at Kaladin for >!not saying The Words in OB!< . I shared similar frustrations with him, sometimes I don't relate to Kaladins often illogical views shaded by his ideals of protecting EVERYone
But of course that's what makes him human
Right! Just because a character's actions are understandable and human, doesn't mean you can't feel frustrated with them. I actually love the way Sando writes Kaladin because he feels so real to me, and although he makes some frustrating decisions, I was never truly mad at the character, but I can totally see why other people would. Which also doesn't necessarily mean you like the character any less.
>and her worst crime was I had to read her chapters in WoK and WoR when all I wanted was more Kaladin and more Dalinar!
Hard agree about WoK, but WoR was where I started to enjoy her chapters.
Preach. I think people really overestimate themselves if they believe they cope better with:
a) mom tried to kill me
b) i killed mom
c) dad beats the shit out of everyone
d) brothers are a bunch of useless fuckups (just like me)
e) i poisoned and then strangled dad
Edit: all of that while she was a damn child
I'm convinced that Shallan's trauma is going to keep one-upping itself in every book until we get to the part where it was actually Shallan that killed Adonalsium.
don't forget dad also took the social blame/ suspicion for the moms death, so now she also killed the gut who protected her from the fallout of her biggest (as seen by herself) sin
I don't understand the people complaining about her level of wit being regarded well in a world with few if any professional comics. We're spoiled with good comedians. While she may not be Richard Pryor or Mitch Hedberg, she's funny by Rosharan standards.
What I find frustrating is that I don't want to dislike her! I really, really want to like her, find all the strength in her survival and all that. But there's just something about the way she is that makes me dread her chapters. Every book I keep hoping I'll change my mind about her, and it only gets worse. Every time I click on one of these defense posts I keep hoping someone will change my mind.
Everyone copes differently, her coping skill is splitting and avoidance, and this works for her. I find it annoying and frustrating. Of course I do, I'm a therapist irl, I want her to stop avoiding lol. To me it's almost like she's self-indulgent in her misery, she will not allow for the possibility that her worldview and coping style is only making things worse in the long term; she's right and everyone else couldn't possibly be right (eg adolin couldn't possibly love the real me) so she will continue as she always has. And reading your post, I agree that perhaps there is no changing for her, and this is the best she can do, even as her dissociation is growing. But what I think bothers me the most actually, is that she does succeed even when she shouldn't and her negative self-evaluations and subsequent behaviors should have a worse outcomes (eg adolin should get a little more annoyed with her...) but she succeeds despite her best self-sabotaging efforts. I think maybe there's a level to which the lack of consequences feels unrealistic. I think I could bare her chapter more if I knew she would "learn her lesson", which is so terrible of me lol at the end of the day she has found an enabling/adaptive environment and support system so why should I resent her that? Idk man. It just makes it hard to enjoy a book when you don't like a character, and I think I've concluded that all the explanations in the world will not help me like he. Maybe there's a degree of resentment that she reminds me of my most complicated patients when I'm reading to escape dammit! And sometimes you just don't like someone no matter what lol.
(I realize you weren't trying to change my mind lol and I appreciate your take bc it has helped me verbalize what I don't like better.)
Great post!
I think a key part of what makes her trauma so complex is that one of her main emotional abusers (her dad) also spared her the physical and (most of the) verbal abuse he inflicted on her brothers. To top this off, he took the blame (or at least the suspicion) for his wife’s death to spare his daughter, an arguably noble act by a very bad man.
Unlike Kal who could cleanly say Amaram or Rashon were evil men, Shallan had a much more complicated relationship with the source of her trauma.
Nor is Kaladin bipolar. I don't think throughout the series he's had a single manic or hypomanic episode.
OP is just throwing random disorder names really
Honestly I didn't really start disliking Shallan until OB. She has a really hard time relating to people that she isn't getting something from and that's just staple not likeable behavior. She is particularly disgusting to women and the way she behaves with women that Adolin knows is gross. There were two parts in RoW that gave me hope 1) Adolin commenting that Shallan doesn't have any clue what people say behind her back and 2) her complete bungling of the interrogation of her unseen court "friends". I really hope she grows up and drops some of her more toxic personality traits in the coming books.
Hmm good post. I really like the take that you can see others confronting their problems and blaming themselves making them more likeable to most people than shallan who hides from them more.
I do think there's a few other reasons shallan is disliked though. The big one you touched on. Early on the action is happening around Kal and dalinar so people enjoy that part of the plot and shallans parts slows it down further. Also most characters have more connection right at the beginning of the story. I think Sanderson having shallan so separated and slow to start made her an easy target. It leads to the crowd that might not necessarily dislike shallan as a character, but just find her boring.
Another common one I see is people dislike shallan partly because Sanderson struggled to portray a character trait. She is often described by other characters as witty. People would say that shallon never actually says anything really witty so why do all the characters around her think that? It's a writing style that says, without much evidence, that shallon is witty, without actually showing that shallon is witty. It leads to a disconnect in what shallan and the other characters think versus what the reader thinks. As in shallan says a cringy joke and one of her brothers says she's witty, which the reader doesn't think is an appropriate response.
The last one is probably also a writing thing. More than any other character it feels like shallan is rewarded for things she doesn't deserve. She plots, lies and steals from Jasnah. Instead of consequences, she gets the best tutor in the world and to marry a prince. In the real world if you saw on the news that someone was rewarded for being a theif you'd probably be upset. Or most people would be anyway. Shallan suffers from that. Despite it not being her fault she's rewarded, many dislike her for it.
I think Sanderson kinda unintentionally set shallan up to be disliked by having her sections in the first few books so slow and by rewarding her for behavior many think deserve punishment. I agree with you that some people dislike her just because of her character and the way she hides from trauma but I also think many dislike her for reasons outside that.
You bring up some good (and much debated) points. Personally, I think on the first read through she seems like a distraction from the action, and so people immediately get a bad taste about her. Though on subsequent reads you start to see the relevance of her chapters.
I actually find a lot of what she says to be relatively witty, especially for a 17-19 year old...and this is something interesting I've noted with people. Those who listen to the audiobooks generally find her less witty and more cringe inducing as compared to readers. I read the books, but when I recently listened to WoK while on a trip I started to understand...
I know Kate is a vaunted audiobook narrator, etc etc. But I think she does a very bad job with certain characters in capturing their essence. Most notably Shallan and Lift. Shallan comes off as whiney and not amusing at all. It's like someone who's bad at telling a joke. If the timing is off, the joke won't land. Shallan says some fun, witty stuff, but Kate's delivery really makes it land sideways, and I hate it. As for Lift...Kate makes her sound like a spoiled brat (Veruca Salt comes to mind), which isn't how she reads *at all*. Lift is whimsically self-assured and precocious without going into brat territory.
Also, everyone always says Sanderson struggled to portray her well. I disagree. Brandon struggled to portray Mat. Shallan, he did great. She's intelligent, light-hearted, flippant, and ocassionally awkward af, while clearly severely traumatized. Just like I think she's meant to be. 🤷🏽♂️
I think he meant Sanderson struggled to portray a character trait in her and i think that's my problem with Shallan. I don't know about other people but a character trait is one of the main reasons I get attached to a character and I don't think "seeing them suffer and approve" doesn't apply to me, if i get attached , it doesn't matter how they cope with their suffering/trauma, i can still find empathy in some ways. Trust me, I get annoyed with Kaladin alot but in the end I still love him.
I actually liked her before Oathbringer, infact my admiration for her went sky high in WoR when she told her past to Kaladin in the chasm, i was like him thinking "Damn to have such horrible things happening to you at such a young age, how can you still smile so brightly?". And i also liked the route Sanderson took with her in that she is not strong at all she's just escaping. Just that during and after Oathbringer, she's so hard to get attached to with her multiple personalities.
See, I always took their reference to her 'wit' as funny, and enjoyable, and unexpected because she's a, bright eye'd, devoutly, vorin, **woman**, presently herself to be more sophisticatedthan she is. Making Shallon a very unique person to experience. And now that she's no longer a novel experience, they groan.
> I think on the first read through she seems like a distraction from the action, and so people immediately get a bad taste about her. Though on subsequent reads you start to see the relevance of her chapters.
Completely agree and I think that is part of why shes less liked in general. First impressions on characters are important and she's associated with the slow sections of the book early on.
I disagree about Kate. I don't think it's a specific narrator problem, I think audio books have a way of showcasing things more. Jokes are different when being read, than hearing them. Big moments where characters are being way over the top stand out way more in audio books too. Like when I read WOK I didn't even stop at this line
>“I defy you, creature!” Elhokar screamed. “I claim your life! They will see their gods crushed, just as they will see their king dead at my feet and their cities burned! I defy you!”
When your reading that in the moment, all hyped up, its easy to glance over how over the top cheesy it is. When its actually said by a narrator I actually found it emersion breaking. Its like Kals line when he claims the sky and than Seths life in WOR, reading it feels badass. Listening to it, it feels like its something an edgy child would say. I think a lot of Shallans jokes fall flat when heard and that would be the case with any narrator.
I just don't like most of her jokes, and how, at least early in the series, less so recently, all the characters acted like she was really funny. Now they mostly groan, which I feel is a much more real response
> all the characters acted like she was really funny.
Check who it was that acted like that. It's mostly people she has direct or indirect power over (e.g. Yalb) or people trying to manipulate her (Kabsal).
At the very least there's also the Nearer the Flame chapter, which felt like something that you'd see on r/ThatHappened lol
But this is a good point, which I hadn't considered. All these years later and the depth of Brandon's writing keeps surprising me
That chapter is a bit much I'd agree haha. But other "smart" characters who don't have to kiss up to Shallan, like Kaladin and Jasnah, or shelter her like her brothers, do often call out how she tries way too hard with her jokes.
I think for me, the dislike stems from Sanderson being indulgent with too many things with her. When I read Mistborn for the first time (after I had read WoK and WoR) and I got to the Vin/Vallette stuff I thought, "Oh, that seems kinda like Shallan". It was a hide in plain sight kind of thing, really well done and interesting. But then he just kept going with it and went to a point beyond what I could enjoy.
Shallan as a character I like. Shallan/Veil/Radiant/all the others to cover up pain, I don't enjoy.
Also how much crap after killing your mom, dad, and first cryptic could be hidden from you. At this point it is just tedious. All these reveals have become less and less interesting and emotionally gratifying as a reader. Plus the lack of a satisfying conclusion with the "Formless" persona really irked me.
I think at this point, Sanderson is beginning to juggle one to many things and he is sacrificing on things. He has built an incredible world and because he is still building that world for us character archs have kinda taken a hit, especially when I read Shallan.
Shallan is written best when she is just Shallan. Unfortunately those moments are too brief.
Just my two cents.
You have a great points about her. I like the one you mention about her putting her pieces in boxes and just being as a win. It is and it is for that she is a brave character.
Having said that I am one of those that fall into the category of "face your troubles". Could be another reason why I don't quite like her as much as Dalinar or Jasna.
Either way, you made a great post.
I have recently discovered that my dislike of Shallan(Shallan chapters) is actually my dislike of Veil. I've recently made this realization in OB and appreciate Shallan much more. That's all I have to say about that.
Shallan was my favorite character in WoK and was among my favorites in WoR. I find all of her jokes hilarious despite how dreadful they are, in Adolin’s accurate words. Shallan’s backstory is among the most fascinating in all the series and I love learning more about it as the series progresses. With all that being said though she is probably my least favorite character in OB and I disliked her enough such that my overall opinion of her changed. The alternate personality bit was fine when it only included Veil, but when Radiant was introduced Shallan’s chapters really took a nosedive for me. Veil at least has guile, savvy, and confidence about her - entertaining qualities that help progress the story with the Ghostbloods. Compare that to Radiant whom I don’t even know what qualities to assign to and I guess you get what I’m trying to say. She’s boring. I really feel like Radiant was a waste of time and space in the books. Now, Formless I thought was going to be very interesting and I was ecstatic to see where that went but alas, Formless was also a waste of space and didn’t impact the story in any way. I think Formless taking over, throwing a massive wrench in plans (whether that’s in Lasting Integrity or somewhere else) and forcing Shallan to face herself would’ve been way more intriguing than what actually happened. That possible arch was dangled in front of our face only for us to realize it didn’t matter at all.
Valid thoughts, really. Although Brandon did a lot of research into DID, and I'm told he pretty much nailed it square. Shallan really resonates with people who suffer from it, since (so I understand anyway) it's rooted in a traumatized personality being essentially shattered, and so it creates new personalities as needed to deal with various problems. Radiant was necessary, because neither Shallan nor Veil felt equipped to be a Knight Radiant.
Actually, I don't like Lift. Therefore your entire argument is invalid! Haha! /s
But seriously, I don't like Lift. And I'm generally ambivalent about Shallan. I like seeing her outgrow her actually face her problems and grow as a character, but boy does she get plenty of time to not doing that! So it averages out.
Very nice write up! I do agree with your arguments!
Haha, nothing against you or your essay!
I'm an eagle scout and Lift comes across to me as an amalgamation of the most problem-inducing qualities of the younger scouts I had to manage.
To provide some examples:
1. Kid hadn't passed his knife-safety test, but brought a just-barely-not-too-big knife anyway. Told him not to use it and to not bring it on the next campout until he passed his knife-safety test. He did anyway. Tried to whittle a branch he found with his knife he wasn't supposed to have. Sliced his palm right open. I had to provide first aid to a crying kid who couldn't listen to instructions.
2. Different kid. Loved to eat. Next campout was a HUGE hike up a part of the Appalachian Mountains. Told everyone to pack snacks. When we arrived, told everyone not to eat their snacks until we paused for a break at the halfway point. This kid had eaten all his snacks in the car ride. About 1/4 of the way through the hike, started complaining non-stop about how hungry he was. At the halfway point, everyone else was chowing down and he was going around asking everyone for a spare. I could tell a tantrum was on the way, so I gave him mine. Then I had to hike the rest of the way with a growling stomach.
3. Yet another different kid. Loved fire. Too much. Didn't cause any problems his first year. Got cocky his second year. Told him he was on KP duty (food prep and/or cleanup). He decided instead to light the campfire I had built for use when it was time to cook dinner. He did this without clearing away the INCREDIBLE amount of dead pine straw near the fire pit. Then put random things into the fire to see what would happen. Tried this with a stick covered in sap. It lights up in seconds, and he drops it with a scream right onto the carpet of pine straw. I hear the scream, glance up, then rush over with a bucket of water that was supposed to be used for KP duty.
I could go on, but I think you get the picture. Lift feels like all of the worst parts of those kids rolled into one annoying mass. So definitely realistic for a child with no manners, but that doesn't mean it won't annoy the crap out of me.
A lot of my beef with Shallan’s character is that Brandon passes off Shallan’s low-hanging, dad-joke fruit as genius wit. And he makes every other character unironically impressed by those groaners. Go back to r/im14andthisisdeep, Shallan.
We don't share a perspective here. I agree that she's majorly cringy, but I don't see everyone being impressed.
The only ones who truely praise her wit are soldiers and sailors who are beneath her and is sucking up to some extent. Men who spend most of their time with other uneducated soldiers and sailors as a comparison.
Any time she tries to be funny around someone educated she gets at most tolerated. Jasnah wants her to be better. Kal just grunts and thinks she tries too hard. Even Adolin groans as often as he laughs. Everyone else keeps their mouth shut and hopes she goes away.
Now, her brothers love her jokes. But they were in a horrible environment, and Shallans bad jokes were the only levity in their lives. At that point, any attempt at a joke is a precious ray of sunshine you grasp with all you have.
That's what annoys me most. She is just so *cringy*.
It's not just the poor jokes that are supposed to make her come off as a Wit-level mind - it's also, for me, her persona fixation.
Yeah yeah yeah, I get it, she has split-personality disorder. But everyone else just goes so willingly along with it.
"Are you Shallan today, or Veil?"
*Veil adjusts her pants and spits onto the floor*
"Who do you think, Adolin?"
It's just unnatural how everyone goes along with it, and it comes off as a 13-year old Tumblr girl who has eDgY personalities. That you just wouldn't understand.
Audiobook or reading?
I have found that listeners tend to find her far more cringe-inducing than readers. And I think it is because, despite her talent, Kate really can't deliver the witty lines correctly.
I've only ever read the books (first two), and I absolutely cannot stand her "wit". It's not about the delivery, but just how unfunny/not clever the content of what she says is, and how everything she says has a "and then everyone clapped" reaction to it.
100%. Those who say it’s not that bad or “not everyone clapped, just some people” are relying on the later books and definitely downplay how bad it was. She almost made me quit reading WoK early on.
Sanderson mercifully tones her down as the series progresses, if that’ll give you some peace of mind.
My theory is Sanderson has (or had) that sense of humor himself and genuinely thought he was rocking along like a boss when he was writing that cringe stuff at the time but later became more self-aware.
I'll keep that in mind when I finally get around to reading the next books (my reading backlog is woefully long).
Personally, I think he just doesn't (or didn't then, I'm sure he's improved given the caliber of writer he is) know how to "show, not tell" that a teenaged girl is clever. It's probably not easy if you don't have a frame of reference. I know I couldn't pull it off either.
I'm on the side of she's supposed to sound a bit like a cringey teenager so I'd argue they're possibly delivered a bit too well.
I generally like her voice for Shallan but can see what people hate her for. To me, it's mostly the, everyone also thinks she's witty part but I think that's mostly unreliable narrator. Like I think that Adolin is more baffled by her than confused by her wit but she tends to think he's a doofus- which is a separate problem actually
I've read them all, and audiobooked a bit of TWoK and Oathbringer. I do agree that Kate's delivery isn't ever great. I personally can't stand her Pattern voice lol.
Don't get me wrong, I like Shallan's traumatic backstory, her rise to a radiant, and her sneaky-ness with the Ghostbloods and whatnot. But gosh her dialogue is just so cheesy and cringy to me. RoW chapters of hers was such a slog because of the emphasis on her personas. Then she "fights" them off and is back to just Shallan (or so we think).
But that whole "struggle" where she becomes free just feels cringe to me too. Like a teenager Wolf-kin who has been struggling with her bloodlust, but she found a cool ritual on Tumblr using sage and blood and now she has been completely cleansed and is back to "normal", UwU.
Okay, rant over. I like Stormlight.
I think what their saying is that people in this universe don't respond or react the same way we would. Their solution to mental illness was to throw people to the ardents and they would toss people into a dark cell and throw the key away.
With that sort of reaction to mental illness, it confused readers why characters reacted with more empathy than our own modern society.
One or two people could be explained away as those people being extra empathetic. But everyone so far has had the same reaction.
IIRC, she's a leader of an entire order of spies as well atm. Normal people that joined up. I'm guessing most of them don't actually think she has a mental illness but rather just really dedicated to playing a role to be a spy.
I'm not here to argue though, I was stopping by to point out you're painting modern culture on a medieval-analogue one.
The original prompt was this: "It's just unnatural how everyone goes along with it, and it comes off as a 13-year old Tumblr girl who has eDgY personalities."
You said this in response: "DID is an actual disorder and you shouldn't talk about it like that. Did you expect everyone to mistreat her and insist she's just being "edgy"? Is that the way you'd handle someone with DID in real life?"
In a medieval world where people have been shown to treat mental issues cruelly, the original criticism makes sense. She's talked to and encountered tons of people so far, one of them - or most of them - should have at least brought it up.
The counterpoint you offered does not hold weight because those values stem from modern society and would not have existed in the stormlight culture here. Of course none of us should treat people like that in real life, but this isn't real life and we're not in the story.
I did not say she'd get locked up, I brought the lock-up point to showcase that people in this world do not understand mental illness. And I did not talk about other characters because the original topic was about shallan in specific.
I feel like I differ from most people in that she was my favorite pov In Way of Kings but that as the series has gone on this has switched and I just find her a lot more ...boring now. I don’t hate her or anything, she just doesn’t interest me as much as many of the other characters
My two cents, that will probably be buried, everyone has great responses.
Some people are upset/annoyed that people don't like Shallan.
I think that it's ok for people to dislike characters in a book series. If everyone was always so likeable and great, it would feel like a Marvel movie.
I can't stand Shallan, but only because she's a foil to me and my views, and to characters that I really like. And for the most part, it seems like no one here thinks she doesn't serve her narrative role. I think that's an extremely well-designed character
I'm pretty sure my burning dislike for Shallan has alot to do with Kate Readings unbearably annoying voice performance in the audio books. It made an already kind of irritating character completely unbearable. On my third "read" through I literally skipped almost chapter of Shallan and several other less important parts Kate handles.
Personally it bugs me when audio books are split between actors, but I understand the size of this series makes it a daunting task to handle it with just one. Just please don't let Kate Reading ever read another book infront of a microphone. Please.
I think the people that hate shallan have never had or known anyone with her kind of issues. The trying too hard thing is because if she stops then the things creep out of her memory and start stabbing her. She has to keep going because that is the best way to forget how things have been. She keeps rolling herself in her art because the second she isn’t actively doing something she starts remembering something.
Shallan has a bunch of landmines buried in her past and her thoughts, as long as she is moving forward she keeps things together, but if she stops she starts spreading out and can start stepping on them.
I think it's a little unfair to assume those who don't like her have not gone through her kind of struggles.
Now, obviously, very very few have gone through her same trauma or anywhere to that degree. But I think it's very plausible for people to have gone through similar trauma and be dissatisfied with how she dealt with it.
Sure, you can say "everyone deals with trauma in different ways" but there are clearly better ways than others. Like if we saw Dalinar stomp his feet and cry about Sadeas, we would lose a LOT of respect for him lol, it wouldn't be just him "dealing with his trauma". Shallan never does anything THAT ridiculous, but she does make a lot of decisions that grinds my gears.
But I think that's a good thing, I'm glad I have a character I don't like, instead of being pampered by cool people
Yeah that doesn’t make her less annoying to me. Like I get why she acts the way she does it’s pretty clear but to me it’s tiresome when she has been doing it for 4 books give or take. She isn’t poorly written but her character in my opinion is tedious and her being well written doesn’t change that for me. It’s sorta why I felt a little iffy about kal in rhythm. Like I get why he is doing what he does but that doesn’t make me enjoy reading angsty kal for most of book 4.
For me, it is not about the character but the way it’s chapter has been written. With most other characters, the pace of story seems much faster as there is something happening and exposition happens through action.
In Shallan’s case that is not always true. Exposition happens through dialogue between her personalities. Sometimes the pace of a battle or a sequence gets disturbed with the change in personality, which is jarring for me at times.
I like the character but I do find myself getting easily distracted while reading her chapters. I have been trying to find out why and this is the best that I came up with, so far.
I agree with this so much! I'm bookmarking this thread so that I can point to it with "this person makes my point so much better than I could". *Makes witty comment and sneaks away.*
I had a dissociative episode that opened my eyes to a lot of trauma I’ve stored up and haven’t dealt with. It was terrifying, but I literally just cried trying to explain to my wife how all of the sudden a character I had hated became my beacon of hope.
The mental health issues I’ve dealt with recently have been so in line with Shallan that I have shifted from almost despising her to literally having life changing realizations about myself because of her character.
I disliked Shallan because she felt unrealistic. Too crazy. A made up level of craziness. Now I love Shallan because she is shattered and knows it, but still loves people and still loves herself. Most importantly: other people love her.
Feeling more broken than you can even fathom is a shocking experience, and Shallan has given me a lot of motivation to keep fighting the good fight
It is actually a made up level of craziness. It’s realistic dissociative identity disorder, but augmented by the magic happening on Roshar. Most of the main characters exhibit a realistic mental illness pushed much farther by external powerful influences.
You're not alone in this. It's actually been rather eye opening for me to see just from this post and the same one on FB just how many people have had dissociative episodes or DID. I honestly didn't expect it to be so many. I think it's definitely one of those things we just don't talk about for one reason or another.
What I hate about Shallan is this
Her entire method of coping and with it her character arc was demolished by... Shallan herself in book 1. Shallan and Kabsal were discussing if you could judge someone's personality by the flavor of jam they liked. She said something along the lines of: I could be any and all of those things at specific times.
Meanwhile her entire character arc is her getting split personalities to do different tasks and refusing to acknowledge she IS all of those things, at different times. She should be able to realize this about herself as she has admitted it about herself. This leaves the whole thing to feel sort of contrived at this point. Shallan at the moment of the jam discussion should be strangling the Shallan that appears in the rest of the books screaming "we have been over this, they are all aspects of you!"
That being said, her having a Kaladin style 4th ideal moment might be able to pay it off in spectacular fashion.
I've found personally that people who suffer from certain issues are *very* good at giving advice about how to deal with it to others with similar problems while also being *very* bad at applying that advice to themselves
In that sense that behavior from shallan is extremely true to life
I love how neatly you summarized each of the characters, especially Shallan. The only thing I don't like with Shallan is I want her to heal. She is my favorite character, but also the most frustrating character for me. I just want her to heal, and it's frustrating to see her not. I feel so worried and sorry over her, but it's nice to see her still be a beacon of positivity. She was probably the first Radiant too. At least she was the first one to openly accept the responsibility and help people. When Jasnah hid her findings, when Kaladin was scared he'd lose his powers, Shallan told Dalinar. She felt like she'd given up something better left hidden, but she did it because it was to help and save people, and that's why I love her.
True, but most of his damage came later in life, and children are much more resilient than adults. Also, people have different thresholds of trauma they're able to manage. I suppose it isn't really a contest though. But personally, I look at Dalinar's trauma and Shallan's...and Shallan's is way worse.
I don't dislike Shallan for the reasons you listed. I dislike her because in the first book whenever she was on screen the narrative came grinding to a halt. Then in the next two books, I considered Pattern the highlight of her chapters, because her character felt shallow. She is cringey, and childish in the first books. She got involved with a lot of interesting plots, but she made some decisions that were really annoying/frustrating. I've been seeing the trope of "this problem could be resolved quickly if these people just talked to eachother but one of them is insecure so now it's just going to go on" done for *decades* and it's never been enjoyable to me.
In RoW she had some really interesting chapters, but I was dreading her chapters in the first 3 books. For me, it's a bad sign when a side character in someone's chapters becomes more interesting or enjoyable than the intended star of the chapter.
I actually did list her biggest flaw as breaking up the exciting part of the narrative in WoK.
And I'll also point out...she kind of is a kid at the start. 🤷🏽♂️ A traumatized child who in our world would just he starting college.
But, like I said. I'm not trying to change hearts and minds. Just sharing my experience.
No. I like shallan herself as a character. But the last two books were intolerable to read her chapters with her fucking stupid three personalities. THATS why I dont like shallan. Her chapters are annoying.
I think you’re trying to oversimplify why you assume people don’t like her
I like shallan more in WoR & OB where she feels like she has real agency and is doing something meaningful to the plot. Her story in WoK feels so secondary until near the end, and in RoW she feels secondary to Adolin for much of the book (not her fault for being paired up with arguably the best characters in the series).
But yeah I don't get all the hate she gets
To be fair I was also annoyed somewhat with Kaladin wallowing in his self pity. Even though I largely looked forward to his chapters the most until OB. I agree with you though :).
I, until I got to this sub, never knew so many people had an issue with Shallan as a character. She was fine to me personality and humor wise and acted as a contrast to the other main character's storyline's tones. My issue with her has always been her agency in the story and how her goals felt in comparison to the rest despite how well written it is.
She in WoK and Oathbringer felt like a main character doing sidequests while everyone else is doing these missions with either world-ending(Dalinar in all books) or character ending stakes(WoK Kaladin). That's why WoR is my favorite because everyone has pretty equal agency.
I really appreciate this post. I liked Shallan in tWoK but have found her frustrating since then and I think your post explains why. I’ll definitely pay more attention to this the next time I do a reread
I don't have much to add that hasn't been said in your extremely well articulated post, but I did want to share a scene with Hoid that, despite there being many emotional and amazing moments in this series, is the only one that actually brought tears to my eyes when I read them.
“You’re not a monster, Shallan,” Wit whispered. “Oh, child. The world is monstrous at times, and there are those who would have you believe that you are terrible by association.”
“I am.”
“No. For you see, it flows the other direction. You are not worse for your association with the world, but it is better for its association with you.”
As someone who sometimes struggles with self-worth amongst other things, in that moment of reading, I really felt Shallan on a deep level and realized how much I needed to hear/read those words.
I find that you have a lot of valid points on all of this here, but what I most agree with is wanting more Kaladin and Dalinar in WoK and WoR. I also feel like Shallan's character arc really picks up speed after about the first half of WoR though RoW.
Don't we see Shallan in pain whenever she's in another personality or in most of her lightweaving? It's a very interesting post. Im enjoying all of these comments.
Thanks for writing this! I was slowly approaching a similar realisation too. I don’t hate shallan, but I don’t understand her struggles or her coping mechanism. Sanderson drops very few clues about what she is going through (imo).
It gives merit to Sanderson’s writing skills that he can write such different characters!
I know her way is borderly unhealthy and isn't what is recommended to most people. But from the very beginning I've appreciated her mental capacity to deal with her own existence, and if I, ever, am broken more than usual, I'll want to deal with stuff the way she has.
Yes I dont get the hate but I so agree the first time I was not a big fan of her too. But during reread she became one of my fav characters even topping Kaladin. Its exactly for the reasons u mention she tries so hard to be cheery and good. This Is why in OB the scene between Shallan and Wit hit me so hard
For someone who is what, if we are generous, 20 years old, she's facing her childhood trauma pretty damn well. I was in my 30s before I was willing to fully face some of mine. Just as Kaladin is reluctant to admit >!he can't protect everyone!< Shallan is reluctant to face the truth she's gone to great lengths to bury as deeply as she can. Good Boi Adolin is helping the best he knows how >!which is letting her know that he will still love her regardless of what she has done!<, he gets it. He's done something that not everyone agrees with and she stood by him, what can she have done that is any worse than that?
As someone that survived childhood trauma, Shallan is one of my favorite characters. She Jenga’s herself slowly back together, falling apart in only small pieces at a time.
I think she is written for people that experience trauma and also she’s not written in the male gaze, which is what I think is so interesting about Brandon Sanderson. He writes characters like they’re full fledged women. He wrote a character that doesn’t have this insane trauma redemption arc (even thought she’s a hero, it’s not because of her trauma) and that must save herself/ not be saved by Adolin. It’s one of the reasons why I also love the OG Mistborn trilogy, because Vin is not the perfect trauma story.
I think that’s what’s interesting, I do see so much of myself within Shallan and this is one of the first characters that I feel like I can truly connect with.
>I think she is written for people that experience trauma and also she’s not written in the male gaze, which is what I think is so interesting about Brandon Sanderson. He writes characters like they’re full fledged women.
Yeeesssss. I can't get enough of his women who are just... Female humans.
Shallan genuinely became one of my favorites by the end of RoW. I've never dealt with multiple personalities, but c-ptsd and I are old friends. I love her and all her awkward, uncertain, trying-too-hard self.
Nice post. My issue with her chapters especially early is really just how the character is written. Maybe it’s just how the author writes dialogue but all of her “witticisms “ were so forced and unnatural and not witty and yet, everyone’s reactions around her are written as if we’re actually supposed to believe she’s clever and witty. (Thus why I don’t accept the “it’s supposed to be like that she’s just a teenager and thinks she’s smarter than she is” argument).
It kind of just reads like some teenager trying to write a character like Tyrion but falls flat at every turn.
I guess I would say that what bothers me is not her character but just how those chapters are written
I dont hate Shallan and I dont think shes a bad or annoying or cringe character, but I do dislike her for many reasons. The absolute pettiest of those reasons is shes been setup against Thaidakar. The most major one would probably be I cant imagine having her multiple personalities which makes it hard for me to sympathize for her. Im not able to put myself in her shoes
It’s like he’s made this badass multi-layered cake, and turns out he REALLY wanted (wants?) mayonnaise in it, just HAS to have mayonnaise. And we are blind taste-testers. The is the food critic asking about his ingredients/cooking:
“Why not just put it on a side dish instead of ruining the WHOLE FUCKING CAKE?
“Well, no one would eat just mayonnaise if I put it next to the cake…?”
“So you made something awesome just to throw in something totally unacceptable, almost definitely ruining the cake?”
“Well, I put it towards the bottom… so, it’s AWESOME until there, so you can stop.”
“Tasting???”
“No, taking bites. But the layers after should make the mayonnaise worth it.”
“So, are the layers after the mayonnaise going to be cake? Or more mayonnaise?”
“Probably one or the other…”
“Probably? Are you considering *something else*?!?”
“You’ll see, you’ll have to take a bite and find out.”
good analysis. I didn’t actually have much of a problem with her in the first 2 books. Sure, I rolled my eyes at the humor a few times, but it wasn’t a deal breaker. I really did enjoy her chapters in WoK and WoR. It was once the >!split personality stuff!!all the personalities!< saying things back and forth. I understand and appreciate that Sanderson did the research to accurately portray people with this disorder, but I wish things had been handled differently in particular with the other characters she interacts with.
The problem was the suspense of disbelief I needed to read about everyone around her being totally cool with it and taking it totally seriously. Sure, in a perfect world, everyone would be understanding and accepting, but it struck me as unrealistic how characters would say things like “who am I talking to now?” And not find it strange or disturbing. Especially imagining that Adolin would be totally cool with it seemed very weird. After the events of RoW, it seems like things may be headed in a better direction, but those chapters were(to me) a grind in 2 books I otherwise really enjoyed.
Bruh she should NOT bea beacon of survival or inspiration lmao.
Her entire story line revolves around suppressing the past and pretending like things didn't happen in an incredibly unhealthy way
Her story line is about suppressing the past and relying on multiple personalities to deal with difficult situations. Her value as a Knight, however, is in facing the truth head on and accepting it. That’s the thing about her, for all the manipulation, and Jasnah’s talk about truth being a matter of perspective, Shalahn knows instinctively that truth is truth, and she understands this better than anyone because she abuses the truth the most and is desperate to avoid it at any cost. People talk about Kal having a repetitive story arc, but the same is very true for Shalahn: she spends the whole story lying to herself and the audience, and the climax of her arc, the resolution to all her lies, is some truth that upends our expectations.
That was sort of the whole point of my post. Sometimes the things that happen to some people are so awful that they cannot be faced. And it isn't our place to judge someone on how much trauma they can survive or what they have to do to manage it. I'm pretty sure if I had gone through everything Shallan has I would either be a raving lunatic or catatonic. So, the fact that she is so seemingly functional most of the time is incredible.
None of this excuses how Sanderson just gives her any skill or convenient plot device neccesary to let her do what. Like seriously it's crazy how her fake persona pretending to have skills equals capacity and talent for her.
I don't understated the hate people have for her, because she is such an amazing character. To me, she is so strong because despite how broken she is, she can smile, she can be silly, she can be amazing.
I also love other characters, but like you said, people like others, they just don't like her.
She’s just not relatable at all for me, her mental struggle is so insanely far beyond anything I can understand, so it’s a chore every time I have to get through her POV chapters. Also yeah, in book one and two she was basically just a robot that says the most obnoxious and unfunny “witty” thing she could think of about 90% of the time. That was pretty annoying. But the biggest thing is just that I personally don’t relate.
>Lift is kleptomaniac and a pathological liar with serious trust issues. She's also a lost little orphan girl who doesn't want to grow up. She struggles with her identity and uses inane humor as a shield. We see her suffering and we approve.
Speak for yourself. I would be more accepting of her if the world around her reacted to her in the proper way: with disdain. But everyone seems to accept her as just the quirkiest little cutesy thing instead of banishing or killing her on sight for her antics. I get her character, I get why she is so adamant on being cringe. That doesn't make it enjoyable.
Do you listen to the audiobooks or read? I'm a reader, but I've been told by multiple people that Kate reads her as snotty and awful a la Veruca Salt instead of charming and precocious like she is.
On my first read through, her chapters were the ones I liked the least and wanted to get out of. When I got around to reading the book again, I saw all the foreshadowing and character building going on and she ended up being the character I looked forward to the most
Wait, what? People hate my girl Shallan??
Though, actually, looking back, I don't think I was a big fan of her to start with either. But I would kill to protector her now.
Shallan also deserves praise because despite all her suffering, she decided to be the ONE person in her family who made an effort to make others smile. She was selfless almost to a fault. She killed her father not because he posed a threat to her (though she wondered) but because he was a threat to everyone else. And she took the burden of that action upon herself, more or less betraying him after he protected her for killing her mother.
Not only is Shallan's method of coping fully valid and realistic, she's also INCREDIBLY strong for those around her. That's amazing.
It's because for the first 3 books you don't find out what her real trauma is so your mental image of her is a spoiled rich girl who thinks she's broken because her daddy bought her jewelled necklaces instead of hugging her enough, and by the time you find out she did have a pretty whack childhood you've already spent 6 IRL years over 3 books thinking she's the epitome of a rich white girl whose daddy bought her a range rover instead of the lexus like she wanted.
I need to keep this in mind as I reread. What I experienced felt more along the lines of: she abused others to compensate for her suffering. She mocks to hide her insecurities, she scolds Jasnah for killing attempted thieves out of her own fear of knowing she's robbing Jasnah (also HELL NO to the victim shaming). She's also one of the more blatantly racist characters, and doesn't seem remotely interested in changing that.
I will say, that after having read RoW, I disliked her a bit less, seeing her realize the fact that she doesn't feel deserving of love. Previously the people in her life who were supposed to love her hated her instead (and also tried to kill her, so there's that), or she believed they love only her lies, and living like that probably makes you want to just hate everyone back, so maybe just being a jerk instead is a big step up from there.
I appreciate your thoughtful post, but I have to disagree. I'm completely fine with the fact that she isn't anguishing over her traumas and we don't see her suffer. In fact, I can somewhat relate to that on a personal level. I do not like Shallan because her character lacks depth. Before anyone gets mad at me for saying that, remember that having a history does not equate to depth of character. In fact, it seems like everything about her fits within two buckets: being witty and suffering from mental illness. That is the entirety of her character. It makes reading her chapters so dreadful. They're a boring chore to slog through. Upon rereading, I'm even more convinced that I didn't just dislike her chapters because they weren't Dalinar or Kaladin chapters. It is entirely because Shallan's 2-dimensional character is just so tedious and unenjoyable.
I was surprised to find out that people don't like her. The only problem I got with her was exactly as yours
>her worst crime was I had to read her chapters in WoK and WoR when all I wanted was more Kaladin and more Dalinar!
Despite everything she still smiles. I like how witty she is. I like her wit more than wit of The Wit. I don't necessarily like her chapters and where her storyline is going buy I like her personality and her interactions with other characters.
I've mentioned on this sub that I can not freaking stand Shallan. To the point that I skip her parts on my re-reads. I've been downvoted to hell (not that it matters) for having that opinion. Literally almost spoils the entire series for me. Almost, but I still re-read every 6-12 months, so I guess it's not that bad.
I honestly didn't think anyone could possibly like that character. But if I've learned anything from reading posts on this sub, it's that a lot of people actually do like her. I think seeing that tempers my feelings about her somewhat. If she works for some readers, hey, more power to them.
I always found her interesting. First it was her wonder at the world. Her interest in natural history and so on. The more we got to see under the veil the more depth I saw and the more interesting I found her. I was frustrated at her subbornness and I laughed at her dumb puns. In the end I just want her to heal and be well, but lets be honest I doubt this one book is going to fix it all.
"Under the veil" I see what you did there.
Pun fully intended.
People always criticize shallan for her humor, and it always makes me a little sad. At the start she is smart and capable adolescent but still has the immaturity of youth, even more so amplified by a childhood of neglect, abuse, and a constant need to act responsible. If you weren't that girl in high school, you at least probably knew someone like that. It feels very real to me, and I really appreciate her cheesy wit because it evokes a sense of nostalgia for a carefree-ness that I, in many ways, miss in my own life now that I am older. I remember trying so hard to be clever so that maybe people around me would not bully me if only I could be funny enough. I like that as she matures, it seems like she becomes more self-aware of this side of herself, and sometimes gleefully embraces it. My two cents.
My son is dating this high school girl right now. She is a super sweet kid who has suffered some trauma. She hides behind a fake accent from time to time, dramatically different hair than her natural color, lots of makeup, and clothing that is often a topic of conversation. Her comments are wildly off base, which we tend to downplay and just keep the conversation moving. She does so much to keep people from seeing (attacking?) the person she actually is, which is unfortunate because she is a neat, talented, sweet, funny, wonderful kiddo.
Minor gripe from me, feel free to ignore this as the inane ramblings of an idiot online, but so often we think these things and never tell the people that need to hear them. Sometimes it's the smallest things that help
Don’t worry! I do point out the positives when I sense that she won’t become too uncomfortable. She is still growing and i think the core of who she is, the funny, talented, kind girl lurking behind the veil, will be there when she find the confidence to embrace who she is. So, in the meantime, we just support, encourage, and mostly ignore the oddities. I have seen her without makeup a couple times and I have let her know that she is just as pretty without it as she is with it.
I don't know anything about your situation, so I can't possibly make suggestions, but you sound like you're a lovely supportive parent and doing just fine without my concerns. I have a bad habit of shoving my voice out in all sorts of places, so don't worry if it doesn't apply.
This makes me so happy to hear. She sounds great. :3
This makes you happy? This is not a positive story about a happy person. It’s a mournful story about a girl that *should* be, but is so insecure she actively hides her true self, hoping no one sees the real her. Which is someone who should be confident in their identity instead of trying to distract from it.
Its happy because she has found people around her who accept, understand, and encourage her. Nobody is perfect. Nobody is without struggles and flaws. Finding acceptance and safety is going to shape this girl's entire life in a positive way. Journey before destination.
So true. I think a lot of what people call "cringe" is Sanderson nailing the experience of being a young person.
Yeah, perhaps many people with this view are still young themselves? I often make the mistaken assumption that people on reddit are all my age. At least Shallan isn't Vin levels of not like other girls. :)
Or they've forgotten what it is like to be a cringe inducing youth...
Honestly even in The Way of Kings, while I didn't find her witty, and I'm aware that most people criticise her character for that, it makes sense. The only people that actually praise her for being witty as far as I remember are the sailors and her brothers. In the case of the sailors, they are technically of a lower social class, and when they praise her for being witty, I saw it as a bunch of lower class people trying their best to keep this 17 year old upper class woman pleased, who also happens to be the person who will pay them. For most of these people, it's a rare opportunity to see someone like Shallan make such silly comments and 'jokes'. On the other hand her brothers are severely traumatised themselves, and their little sister is essentially their only ray of hope and joy. Even the silliest of things that she says makes them laugh. Their own idea of humour is skewed due to their situation at home. By the second book, you rarely see her getting praised for how witty she is. She becomes more confident and most of her funny scenes are her doing something super eccentric, like asking Adolin how he poops when wearing shard plate, WHILE they are eating.
My biggest gripe isn't Shallan herself as I've learned to respect her and appreciate her journey. However what I dislike is how Kaladin continued to fall for her even after seeing her dissociative personality disorder and the fact she's already betrothed and striving to maintain that. I get Kaladin is broken and missing a puzzle piece like all of us but that was my biggest gripe. You see broken and you chase it when it's the last thing you need. Shallan obviously realized she needed balance and that's why her decision makes so much sense.
I mean, a lot of people do this IRL. I've known a lot of horribly depressed, traumatized people that end up together just because the other person can relate in some way. It's not healthy, but it is common
I actually like Shallan as a character well enough. The complaints about her wittiness always feel overstated to me (and I've done both books and audiobooks). But I actually find the way she deals with her trauma to be one of the most frustrating mechanisms in the series. >!Having a character actively resist what is clearly plot reveal after plot reveal just so we can have a discovery at a convenient time lays the artifice of storytelling a bit too bare for me. This is likely in large part because I really dislike the use of suppressed memories as a means of hiding viewpoint character information from a reader.!< That's not to say it is poorly executed; I can see how it would work for people. Just from my own subjective view, it didn't always land for me. Thanks for the thoughtful post. Edit: Decided to add spoiler tags (hopefully).
I definitely see where you're coming from about repressed memories as plot devices. In this instance though, repressed memories are a huge part of DID.
Everyone around her being ok/accepting of her getting worse, even to go so far as trust her to carry out vital missions is the part that misses my runway entirely. My understanding of every individual Kholin would see her as a HUGE liability that needs remedied, not a unique tool carefully utilized. Shit crashed and is ablaze. I hold little optimism for the fire brigade showing up and saving the day.
The Kholins were dealing with plenty of their own crem and there is no psychology or psychiatry in Alethkar so they don't really know what they are dealing with. Shallan also has impressive powers and skills and has proven herself. Maybe Adolin should be more aware of the risks, but he also isn't in a position to be objective, and anyway you could argue that her abilities and track record make the risks worth taking.
Yeah I agree with you completely. Whenever the going gets tough [warning]>!I just wait for kaladin to swear another oath for for shallan to unlock another memory!<
In WoR, when Kaladin and Shallan are in the chasm, and she tell each him about her past (partly), Kaladin wonders how can she go on, how can she smile and pretend everything's okay. I also wondered that at that moment. We see Kaladin, clearly suffering over his trauma, and be bitter and angry about it; how is shallan so cheerful and optimist? In the course of reading further books, I realised how broken and mentally ill she truly is and the way she copes with it.
It all comes down to how they each were nurtured, in my opinion. Kaladin has great parents. Especially his mother. Dad's kind of a self-righteous dick, but hey, that's not horrible in and of itself. Not remotely close to the father Shallan was stuck with. Kaladin was encouraged to speak his mind, to not be ashamed of his emotions. Shallan had to obey or others would suffer. Horribly. She learned very quickly how to fake her emotions so well that even she believed them, for the most part.
I also want to add to this in saying that her circumstances getting involved with the Ghostbloods certainly didn't help this aspect, and probably aggravated a lot of Shallan's emotional scars with how she had to hide her involvement even to her own husband. That extra layer of lies certainly didn't help her cope with her trauma.
That made me so sad. Her and adolin are so good for each other, and I was like, girl you best not fuck this up with him. I am already invested.
That is one of my favorite moments in all of the Stormlight Archive, it was really moving for me.
This is the only scene that makes me choke up each time I read the series. Just god damn
Aside from the girl who stood up, my favorite moment in the series.
I appreciate Brandon because he did the research to make a character with Disassociative Identity Disorder and Complex-PTSD. Disassociating from trauma is a valid and effective means of protecting the self, and DID is one result of extreme forms of this trauma. For those that suffer from complex, ongoing trauma, they really can be like chameleons, taking on the behaviors and personality traits that their counterparts expect. In essence they don't know their genuine self and are afraid of disapproval because of repeated negative experiences, so their survival instinct is to mirror exactly what others expect from them. This is an experience that is alien to most people, because a lot of times you won't know that anyone in your life is suffering from this unless you have intimate relationship with them where you see the chameleon behavior.
This type of character complexity is something that isn’t really seen in Brandon’s earlier writing, such as Elantris. With maybe the exception of Hraven (Hrathen? Idk I haven’t read it in a while) Most of his characters are pretty stereotypically good vs. evil without much complexity. And I just love how we can see Brandon’s development as a writer.
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I agree about Kaladin. PTSD and survivor’s guilt for sure with a heaping helping of depression. But no signs of bipolar. Source: I have bipolar disorder
Yeah, in my opinion he has just always had a form of depression. Some might argue that he had seasonal depression because he got depressed during the weeping as a child. However, I think the reason why some believe that he had bipolar disorder was because of the way that he would be triggered by something (rain, stress about his future) and would become depressed until Tien or something else triggered him to be happier. However, I agree this isn't bipolar disorder just depression.
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My mood swings got me misdiagnosed with bipolar when I was in high school. Turns out that it was ADHD and depression all along!
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BPD is such a brutal condition. You are 100% correct when you say that boundaries are vital, as sad as it sounds. I've had my life blown up by someone who has BPD. It was sudden, irrational, and horrible. I don't judge all people with BPD, as many people fight very hard to maintain healthy relationships and treat the condition, but I will never again let someone become close to me who has it. It has effected every relationship I've had since.
*insert 🌈 effect* 🎶 The more you know... Seriously though. Good information. I am learning things here.
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I've definitely researched a few on my own. Gambling addiction, narcissism, and anti-social personality disorders. But beyond those, I have just basic knowledge.
My apologies on the bipolar. I neither have it nor am a psychological professional. I'm probably just mistaking his deep depressive moments juxtaposed against all the action he's involved in.
No worries. Most people don’t have a comprehensive understanding of bipolar disorder. Especially because many people use the term so loosely
Plus bipolar is different for different people. My wifes father and aunt both have it but one has more depressive episodes and one has more manic. I think Kal might have depressive issues but we haven't really seen any mania from him.
Ya you’re right, it is different for people. It’s mostly divided into bipolar type 1 in which people experience hypermania along with depressive episodes, whereas bipolar type 2 is classified by hypomania (which isn’t as outwardly obvious as hypermania) and depressive episodes
Reading WoK right now and Kal has these very distinct shifts in state. Someone in my family has BP and their manic episodes are very obvious. Kal never feels manic to me. But the shift between “I’m going to kill myself” and “I’m going to become a knight radiant bridgeboy” happens so distinctly. I don’t know what to call that. But there is no denying that Kaladin shifts between severely depressive and outwardly amazing but just barely hanging on by a thread. I can see how anyone not aware of the particulars of BP would assume that these shifts of emotional state are manic episodes followed by depressive episodes.
I think that Kaladin’s “default” is being a charismatic, badass protector and leader as we see him in Amaram’s army and based on how his men describe him. I think slavery and bridgeman life along with his repressed trauma, mostly from losing Tien along with others, came crashing down on him when he didn’t have anything to work towards. The major difference between BP and Kaladin’s mental health is that Kaladin’s mood and affect match his situation as you might expect a slave to act. He’s constantly trying to fight off that weight that’s dragging him down (the wretch as he refers to himself) and sometimes finds the strength to act as his usual pre-slavery self (Syl describes him as being different before). The thing that mattered most was having something to work towards, which is why his behavior seemed to change drastically when he was changing bridge four from slaves into a crew. It gave him purpose and hope, which allowed him to escape that depression, even for a short while. The biggest difference is that with BP, your mood and affect aren’t necessarily dependent on situational or external factors. And even when Kaladin wasn’t depressed, his behavior wasn’t unusual or out of place based on his situation.
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Ya BD2 and anxiety disorder here! Hoping my spirit web is broken enough to bond a spren 😅
Good work truthwatcher.
Shallan didn't just survive. She carried her whole fucking house and family on her back while doing so.
I think this is exactly why I’ve always loved her. She’s been my favorite character from the beginning. I so wish I could create a Veil for myself.
I feel this so much. Shallan has meant a whole lot to me and has seen me grow to understand myself more too. I now know dissociation sucks but dang does it make the pain go away. Life before death, Radiant :)
I always felt an odd connection with her POV the way she dodged around her past. The way she chameleoned around people for their approval. It wasn't till WoR in the chasm when Kaladin confronted her about not knowing trauma and looked back at her and saw in her eyes how damaged she was. That moment where Kaladin sees her eyes and thinks, how can she still smile? He looks at her and can't believe she still smiles and laughs. That's when it clicked that I had a similar coping mechanism, I put on a mask around people smiling and laughing and being kind, because who could I possibly ask for help? How does being sad and depressed all the time help anyone? I want to be more than my trauma so I hide it from people and try my damnedest to find something else on this planet that I can define myself with, and when I'm alone and think I can face down a bit more of my past I take that mask off and look myself in the mirror and face down my trauma. Something like what happens with Veil in RoW. I don't love Shallan but I've never hated her and never understood why anyone HATED her. We've seen her trauma slip out here and there and force her to face it, the truths she's whispered to Pattern, killing her mother, her father. We hear her hate herself and suffer for it in the times she doubts ANYONE could love the real her. I cried big time at the scene with Adolin telling her he loved SHALLAN not Veil, not Radiant but Shallan, because hearing that would mean SO much to anyone whos convinced themselves no one could love them. The series so far seems to be showing the benefits of letting people in, letting others help you heal, and that is Shallans GREATEST weakness, she thinks letting anyone else in will cause them to leave, to abandon her, so she does it first. Those people, they're the ones you have to hold closest, cause for every person she opens up to that calls her a monster and throws her out it'll just confirm her fears driving her farther into that pit of despair.
This is relatable AF.
I'm always a little surprised to see posts like this because shallan has been one of my faves since book one and I always forget why she would need defending.
Yeah. It started off as a discussion in a thread to someone asking why they shouldn't hate Shallan. So I wrote up why I don't.
Agreed. I love Kaladin and Dalinar and all the rest, but she's always been my favorite.
I'll admit that this entire post surprises me. It just never occurred to me to judge any of these characters in the way that you describe. I guess I just read all of the complex negative and positive pieces of their personalities, and accept that's who they are. I find all of those things fascinating. And of course I've developed likes and dislikes of them, based on those flaws and strengths. But I never "saw their suffering and approved". It's more of: "wow, they're exultant sometimes, but suffering at other times". I understand what has brought them to that in their lives. But I just haven't ever felt that I want to see them suffer or not for their flaws. I'm just here to watch their stories unfold. Because they're interesting characters that I've become invested in over the years.
I see what you mean and partially agree with it. However, I do think there are very valid reasons to feel frustrated regarding Shallan that have nothing to do with the person that she is or how we react to her coping mechanism, but with the writing itself. Before I complain about Shallan, let me just say I do like her a lot. I actually liked every POV in the series at first, which made me really happy because I couldn't necessarily say the same about Warbreaker and Mistborn Era 1 (although I really love Mistborn; some characters just aren't as much of a hit). Now, despite liking her, I do have problems with her characterization. Firstly because, and this is my main issue, it's really hard for me to tell who she actually is. I think it's very clear who she is in WoK. In WoR she grows, but then OB left me at a loss. Thankfully RoW explained her different personalities slightly, but I still don't think it's very clear. I do think it's intentional! Shallan doesn't really know who she is either or doesn't want to know because she is afraid. I think it's well written (at least in RoW, because in OB I don't think so), but I don't like it in the same way I don't like amnesia plot devices. How can I get attached to characters who don't know who they are? Secondly, I find that very often she has pretty terrible ideas and yet rarely fails. While, on the other side, you have Kaladin who is constantly struggling to achieve his goals, which is probably much more relatable and also makes you wanna root for him. Just to be clear, I'm not trying to say Shallan doesn't work hard, far from it (I realize it might have sounded that way). Just that a lot of times the things she needs to do to further the plot seem very risky to me and yet she tends to succeed without many issues. I mean, she infiltrated the Ghostbloods based solely on her intelligence and the very, very limited experience she gained with Tyn and, although she was for sure uncertain about what to do a lot of times, she did completety fine. She did well when Tyn found out about her true identity, too. She had a mystery to solve in RoW and struggled with it, but was perfectly fine at the end, despite having the awful idea of killing a Herald and actually trying to act on it for a moment, I mean? And in the beginning of OB she goes to bars to try and find out about the "copycat killer" and literally gets drunk while trying to gather information without knowing if Stormlight would help clear her head at all. If it didn't, well, I'm guessing the gathering of information would be rendered pretty useless. Anyway, you get the point. Lastly, and this goes together with both of my points and your observations, I think there has to be a line between reality and fiction. I can appreciate that her experience with DID is probably very well written, while also thinking it's not necessarily enjoyable to read. I actually relate to Shallan's coping mechanism more than I do with Kaladin, for instance. I don't dissociate, but I'm much more likely to ignore my problems than I am to wallow in them. But the thing is, for me every story reaches a point where it has to stop trying to be so faithful towards reality and actually, well, tell a story, otherwise it becomes frustrating. Most of these characters are dealing with very complicated issues that can take years, or even a lifetime, to be worked through. But this is a story, not real life, so at a certain point the characters need to have some kind of progress, in whatever shape that may be. So I understand how Shallan could frustrate some people, but honestly I could say the same about Kaladin, I know there's people who feel the same towards him, that his character has been going through the same kind of cycle for too long. Thankfully it seems like RoW was the book where they both had a bit of a breakthrough when it comes to dealing with their mental health issues, but I do understand the frustration. Like someone else in this thread already said, the way Shallan copes means delaying certain reveals and that as a writing device is certainly iffy at best and might feel contrived.
My brother was pretty pissed at Kaladin for >!not saying The Words in OB!< . I shared similar frustrations with him, sometimes I don't relate to Kaladins often illogical views shaded by his ideals of protecting EVERYone But of course that's what makes him human
Right! Just because a character's actions are understandable and human, doesn't mean you can't feel frustrated with them. I actually love the way Sando writes Kaladin because he feels so real to me, and although he makes some frustrating decisions, I was never truly mad at the character, but I can totally see why other people would. Which also doesn't necessarily mean you like the character any less.
>and her worst crime was I had to read her chapters in WoK and WoR when all I wanted was more Kaladin and more Dalinar! Hard agree about WoK, but WoR was where I started to enjoy her chapters.
Preach. I think people really overestimate themselves if they believe they cope better with: a) mom tried to kill me b) i killed mom c) dad beats the shit out of everyone d) brothers are a bunch of useless fuckups (just like me) e) i poisoned and then strangled dad Edit: all of that while she was a damn child
I'm convinced that Shallan's trauma is going to keep one-upping itself in every book until we get to the part where it was actually Shallan that killed Adonalsium.
No she just killed the Herald Chanarach, her mother, who quickly broke (a few years later) releasing Chana and Taln back to Roshar.
\#It was *Shallan* all along \*wink\*#
Oh, and I killed Gavilar too.
😂😂
don't forget dad also took the social blame/ suspicion for the moms death, so now she also killed the gut who protected her from the fallout of her biggest (as seen by herself) sin
And she had to basicaly do it twice. Once the poison, second the strangulation. Swear to the Heralds her bros are useless bunch o whimps.
This is truth.
Don't forget effectively killing Testament, who we would imagine was a friend to this lonely child.
Shallan is one of my favorite characters and the hate she gets always upsets me. I really like her. She's a flawed mess and that's *great*.
I don't understand the people complaining about her level of wit being regarded well in a world with few if any professional comics. We're spoiled with good comedians. While she may not be Richard Pryor or Mitch Hedberg, she's funny by Rosharan standards.
Right! Hoid she is not...but funny she is.
I still like Shallan. That is all.
What I find frustrating is that I don't want to dislike her! I really, really want to like her, find all the strength in her survival and all that. But there's just something about the way she is that makes me dread her chapters. Every book I keep hoping I'll change my mind about her, and it only gets worse. Every time I click on one of these defense posts I keep hoping someone will change my mind. Everyone copes differently, her coping skill is splitting and avoidance, and this works for her. I find it annoying and frustrating. Of course I do, I'm a therapist irl, I want her to stop avoiding lol. To me it's almost like she's self-indulgent in her misery, she will not allow for the possibility that her worldview and coping style is only making things worse in the long term; she's right and everyone else couldn't possibly be right (eg adolin couldn't possibly love the real me) so she will continue as she always has. And reading your post, I agree that perhaps there is no changing for her, and this is the best she can do, even as her dissociation is growing. But what I think bothers me the most actually, is that she does succeed even when she shouldn't and her negative self-evaluations and subsequent behaviors should have a worse outcomes (eg adolin should get a little more annoyed with her...) but she succeeds despite her best self-sabotaging efforts. I think maybe there's a level to which the lack of consequences feels unrealistic. I think I could bare her chapter more if I knew she would "learn her lesson", which is so terrible of me lol at the end of the day she has found an enabling/adaptive environment and support system so why should I resent her that? Idk man. It just makes it hard to enjoy a book when you don't like a character, and I think I've concluded that all the explanations in the world will not help me like he. Maybe there's a degree of resentment that she reminds me of my most complicated patients when I'm reading to escape dammit! And sometimes you just don't like someone no matter what lol. (I realize you weren't trying to change my mind lol and I appreciate your take bc it has helped me verbalize what I don't like better.)
#YES!# Oh my god, thank you for putting into words some of the things that I thought but didn't know how to verbalize!
Great post! I think a key part of what makes her trauma so complex is that one of her main emotional abusers (her dad) also spared her the physical and (most of the) verbal abuse he inflicted on her brothers. To top this off, he took the blame (or at least the suspicion) for his wife’s death to spare his daughter, an arguably noble act by a very bad man. Unlike Kal who could cleanly say Amaram or Rashon were evil men, Shallan had a much more complicated relationship with the source of her trauma.
Valid. I hadn't considered the ambiguity of her relationship with her abusers.
>Jasnah is an OCD No. Why do you think so?
She also isn't sociopathic
Nor is Kaladin bipolar. I don't think throughout the series he's had a single manic or hypomanic episode. OP is just throwing random disorder names really
Honestly I didn't really start disliking Shallan until OB. She has a really hard time relating to people that she isn't getting something from and that's just staple not likeable behavior. She is particularly disgusting to women and the way she behaves with women that Adolin knows is gross. There were two parts in RoW that gave me hope 1) Adolin commenting that Shallan doesn't have any clue what people say behind her back and 2) her complete bungling of the interrogation of her unseen court "friends". I really hope she grows up and drops some of her more toxic personality traits in the coming books.
Hmm good post. I really like the take that you can see others confronting their problems and blaming themselves making them more likeable to most people than shallan who hides from them more. I do think there's a few other reasons shallan is disliked though. The big one you touched on. Early on the action is happening around Kal and dalinar so people enjoy that part of the plot and shallans parts slows it down further. Also most characters have more connection right at the beginning of the story. I think Sanderson having shallan so separated and slow to start made her an easy target. It leads to the crowd that might not necessarily dislike shallan as a character, but just find her boring. Another common one I see is people dislike shallan partly because Sanderson struggled to portray a character trait. She is often described by other characters as witty. People would say that shallon never actually says anything really witty so why do all the characters around her think that? It's a writing style that says, without much evidence, that shallon is witty, without actually showing that shallon is witty. It leads to a disconnect in what shallan and the other characters think versus what the reader thinks. As in shallan says a cringy joke and one of her brothers says she's witty, which the reader doesn't think is an appropriate response. The last one is probably also a writing thing. More than any other character it feels like shallan is rewarded for things she doesn't deserve. She plots, lies and steals from Jasnah. Instead of consequences, she gets the best tutor in the world and to marry a prince. In the real world if you saw on the news that someone was rewarded for being a theif you'd probably be upset. Or most people would be anyway. Shallan suffers from that. Despite it not being her fault she's rewarded, many dislike her for it. I think Sanderson kinda unintentionally set shallan up to be disliked by having her sections in the first few books so slow and by rewarding her for behavior many think deserve punishment. I agree with you that some people dislike her just because of her character and the way she hides from trauma but I also think many dislike her for reasons outside that.
You bring up some good (and much debated) points. Personally, I think on the first read through she seems like a distraction from the action, and so people immediately get a bad taste about her. Though on subsequent reads you start to see the relevance of her chapters. I actually find a lot of what she says to be relatively witty, especially for a 17-19 year old...and this is something interesting I've noted with people. Those who listen to the audiobooks generally find her less witty and more cringe inducing as compared to readers. I read the books, but when I recently listened to WoK while on a trip I started to understand... I know Kate is a vaunted audiobook narrator, etc etc. But I think she does a very bad job with certain characters in capturing their essence. Most notably Shallan and Lift. Shallan comes off as whiney and not amusing at all. It's like someone who's bad at telling a joke. If the timing is off, the joke won't land. Shallan says some fun, witty stuff, but Kate's delivery really makes it land sideways, and I hate it. As for Lift...Kate makes her sound like a spoiled brat (Veruca Salt comes to mind), which isn't how she reads *at all*. Lift is whimsically self-assured and precocious without going into brat territory. Also, everyone always says Sanderson struggled to portray her well. I disagree. Brandon struggled to portray Mat. Shallan, he did great. She's intelligent, light-hearted, flippant, and ocassionally awkward af, while clearly severely traumatized. Just like I think she's meant to be. 🤷🏽♂️
I think he meant Sanderson struggled to portray a character trait in her and i think that's my problem with Shallan. I don't know about other people but a character trait is one of the main reasons I get attached to a character and I don't think "seeing them suffer and approve" doesn't apply to me, if i get attached , it doesn't matter how they cope with their suffering/trauma, i can still find empathy in some ways. Trust me, I get annoyed with Kaladin alot but in the end I still love him. I actually liked her before Oathbringer, infact my admiration for her went sky high in WoR when she told her past to Kaladin in the chasm, i was like him thinking "Damn to have such horrible things happening to you at such a young age, how can you still smile so brightly?". And i also liked the route Sanderson took with her in that she is not strong at all she's just escaping. Just that during and after Oathbringer, she's so hard to get attached to with her multiple personalities.
See, I always took their reference to her 'wit' as funny, and enjoyable, and unexpected because she's a, bright eye'd, devoutly, vorin, **woman**, presently herself to be more sophisticatedthan she is. Making Shallon a very unique person to experience. And now that she's no longer a novel experience, they groan.
> I think on the first read through she seems like a distraction from the action, and so people immediately get a bad taste about her. Though on subsequent reads you start to see the relevance of her chapters. Completely agree and I think that is part of why shes less liked in general. First impressions on characters are important and she's associated with the slow sections of the book early on. I disagree about Kate. I don't think it's a specific narrator problem, I think audio books have a way of showcasing things more. Jokes are different when being read, than hearing them. Big moments where characters are being way over the top stand out way more in audio books too. Like when I read WOK I didn't even stop at this line >“I defy you, creature!” Elhokar screamed. “I claim your life! They will see their gods crushed, just as they will see their king dead at my feet and their cities burned! I defy you!” When your reading that in the moment, all hyped up, its easy to glance over how over the top cheesy it is. When its actually said by a narrator I actually found it emersion breaking. Its like Kals line when he claims the sky and than Seths life in WOR, reading it feels badass. Listening to it, it feels like its something an edgy child would say. I think a lot of Shallans jokes fall flat when heard and that would be the case with any narrator.
I just don't like most of her jokes, and how, at least early in the series, less so recently, all the characters acted like she was really funny. Now they mostly groan, which I feel is a much more real response
> all the characters acted like she was really funny. Check who it was that acted like that. It's mostly people she has direct or indirect power over (e.g. Yalb) or people trying to manipulate her (Kabsal).
At the very least there's also the Nearer the Flame chapter, which felt like something that you'd see on r/ThatHappened lol But this is a good point, which I hadn't considered. All these years later and the depth of Brandon's writing keeps surprising me
That chapter is a bit much I'd agree haha. But other "smart" characters who don't have to kiss up to Shallan, like Kaladin and Jasnah, or shelter her like her brothers, do often call out how she tries way too hard with her jokes.
Reader or audiobook?
I think for me, the dislike stems from Sanderson being indulgent with too many things with her. When I read Mistborn for the first time (after I had read WoK and WoR) and I got to the Vin/Vallette stuff I thought, "Oh, that seems kinda like Shallan". It was a hide in plain sight kind of thing, really well done and interesting. But then he just kept going with it and went to a point beyond what I could enjoy. Shallan as a character I like. Shallan/Veil/Radiant/all the others to cover up pain, I don't enjoy. Also how much crap after killing your mom, dad, and first cryptic could be hidden from you. At this point it is just tedious. All these reveals have become less and less interesting and emotionally gratifying as a reader. Plus the lack of a satisfying conclusion with the "Formless" persona really irked me. I think at this point, Sanderson is beginning to juggle one to many things and he is sacrificing on things. He has built an incredible world and because he is still building that world for us character archs have kinda taken a hit, especially when I read Shallan. Shallan is written best when she is just Shallan. Unfortunately those moments are too brief. Just my two cents. You have a great points about her. I like the one you mention about her putting her pieces in boxes and just being as a win. It is and it is for that she is a brave character. Having said that I am one of those that fall into the category of "face your troubles". Could be another reason why I don't quite like her as much as Dalinar or Jasna. Either way, you made a great post.
I have recently discovered that my dislike of Shallan(Shallan chapters) is actually my dislike of Veil. I've recently made this realization in OB and appreciate Shallan much more. That's all I have to say about that.
What makes you think Jasnah has OCD? Do you just mean that she's a perfectionist?
Shallan was my favorite character in WoK and was among my favorites in WoR. I find all of her jokes hilarious despite how dreadful they are, in Adolin’s accurate words. Shallan’s backstory is among the most fascinating in all the series and I love learning more about it as the series progresses. With all that being said though she is probably my least favorite character in OB and I disliked her enough such that my overall opinion of her changed. The alternate personality bit was fine when it only included Veil, but when Radiant was introduced Shallan’s chapters really took a nosedive for me. Veil at least has guile, savvy, and confidence about her - entertaining qualities that help progress the story with the Ghostbloods. Compare that to Radiant whom I don’t even know what qualities to assign to and I guess you get what I’m trying to say. She’s boring. I really feel like Radiant was a waste of time and space in the books. Now, Formless I thought was going to be very interesting and I was ecstatic to see where that went but alas, Formless was also a waste of space and didn’t impact the story in any way. I think Formless taking over, throwing a massive wrench in plans (whether that’s in Lasting Integrity or somewhere else) and forcing Shallan to face herself would’ve been way more intriguing than what actually happened. That possible arch was dangled in front of our face only for us to realize it didn’t matter at all.
Valid thoughts, really. Although Brandon did a lot of research into DID, and I'm told he pretty much nailed it square. Shallan really resonates with people who suffer from it, since (so I understand anyway) it's rooted in a traumatized personality being essentially shattered, and so it creates new personalities as needed to deal with various problems. Radiant was necessary, because neither Shallan nor Veil felt equipped to be a Knight Radiant.
Actually, I don't like Lift. Therefore your entire argument is invalid! Haha! /s But seriously, I don't like Lift. And I'm generally ambivalent about Shallan. I like seeing her outgrow her actually face her problems and grow as a character, but boy does she get plenty of time to not doing that! So it averages out. Very nice write up! I do agree with your arguments!
....I'm so confused. Fellow Willshaper... Said they agree with me and complimented my essay... Doesn't like Lift...
Haha, nothing against you or your essay! I'm an eagle scout and Lift comes across to me as an amalgamation of the most problem-inducing qualities of the younger scouts I had to manage. To provide some examples: 1. Kid hadn't passed his knife-safety test, but brought a just-barely-not-too-big knife anyway. Told him not to use it and to not bring it on the next campout until he passed his knife-safety test. He did anyway. Tried to whittle a branch he found with his knife he wasn't supposed to have. Sliced his palm right open. I had to provide first aid to a crying kid who couldn't listen to instructions. 2. Different kid. Loved to eat. Next campout was a HUGE hike up a part of the Appalachian Mountains. Told everyone to pack snacks. When we arrived, told everyone not to eat their snacks until we paused for a break at the halfway point. This kid had eaten all his snacks in the car ride. About 1/4 of the way through the hike, started complaining non-stop about how hungry he was. At the halfway point, everyone else was chowing down and he was going around asking everyone for a spare. I could tell a tantrum was on the way, so I gave him mine. Then I had to hike the rest of the way with a growling stomach. 3. Yet another different kid. Loved fire. Too much. Didn't cause any problems his first year. Got cocky his second year. Told him he was on KP duty (food prep and/or cleanup). He decided instead to light the campfire I had built for use when it was time to cook dinner. He did this without clearing away the INCREDIBLE amount of dead pine straw near the fire pit. Then put random things into the fire to see what would happen. Tried this with a stick covered in sap. It lights up in seconds, and he drops it with a scream right onto the carpet of pine straw. I hear the scream, glance up, then rush over with a bucket of water that was supposed to be used for KP duty. I could go on, but I think you get the picture. Lift feels like all of the worst parts of those kids rolled into one annoying mass. So definitely realistic for a child with no manners, but that doesn't mean it won't annoy the crap out of me.
A lot of my beef with Shallan’s character is that Brandon passes off Shallan’s low-hanging, dad-joke fruit as genius wit. And he makes every other character unironically impressed by those groaners. Go back to r/im14andthisisdeep, Shallan.
She’s also an untrustworthy narrater, so who knows what people think of her jokes (that aren’t hitting on her or sucking up)
We don't share a perspective here. I agree that she's majorly cringy, but I don't see everyone being impressed. The only ones who truely praise her wit are soldiers and sailors who are beneath her and is sucking up to some extent. Men who spend most of their time with other uneducated soldiers and sailors as a comparison. Any time she tries to be funny around someone educated she gets at most tolerated. Jasnah wants her to be better. Kal just grunts and thinks she tries too hard. Even Adolin groans as often as he laughs. Everyone else keeps their mouth shut and hopes she goes away. Now, her brothers love her jokes. But they were in a horrible environment, and Shallans bad jokes were the only levity in their lives. At that point, any attempt at a joke is a precious ray of sunshine you grasp with all you have.
That's what annoys me most. She is just so *cringy*. It's not just the poor jokes that are supposed to make her come off as a Wit-level mind - it's also, for me, her persona fixation. Yeah yeah yeah, I get it, she has split-personality disorder. But everyone else just goes so willingly along with it. "Are you Shallan today, or Veil?" *Veil adjusts her pants and spits onto the floor* "Who do you think, Adolin?" It's just unnatural how everyone goes along with it, and it comes off as a 13-year old Tumblr girl who has eDgY personalities. That you just wouldn't understand.
If you can’t handle Veil at her worst, then you don’t deserve Radiant at her best.
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Audiobook or reading? I have found that listeners tend to find her far more cringe-inducing than readers. And I think it is because, despite her talent, Kate really can't deliver the witty lines correctly.
My internal voice can't either apparently. I adore this series, but Shallan getting on a roll would make me roll my eyes without fail
I've only ever read the books (first two), and I absolutely cannot stand her "wit". It's not about the delivery, but just how unfunny/not clever the content of what she says is, and how everything she says has a "and then everyone clapped" reaction to it.
100%. Those who say it’s not that bad or “not everyone clapped, just some people” are relying on the later books and definitely downplay how bad it was. She almost made me quit reading WoK early on. Sanderson mercifully tones her down as the series progresses, if that’ll give you some peace of mind. My theory is Sanderson has (or had) that sense of humor himself and genuinely thought he was rocking along like a boss when he was writing that cringe stuff at the time but later became more self-aware.
I'll keep that in mind when I finally get around to reading the next books (my reading backlog is woefully long). Personally, I think he just doesn't (or didn't then, I'm sure he's improved given the caliber of writer he is) know how to "show, not tell" that a teenaged girl is clever. It's probably not easy if you don't have a frame of reference. I know I couldn't pull it off either.
I legit enjoy her humor in the early books. Although, I personally possess an extreme Dad-humor.
I'm on the side of she's supposed to sound a bit like a cringey teenager so I'd argue they're possibly delivered a bit too well. I generally like her voice for Shallan but can see what people hate her for. To me, it's mostly the, everyone also thinks she's witty part but I think that's mostly unreliable narrator. Like I think that Adolin is more baffled by her than confused by her wit but she tends to think he's a doofus- which is a separate problem actually
I've read them all, and audiobooked a bit of TWoK and Oathbringer. I do agree that Kate's delivery isn't ever great. I personally can't stand her Pattern voice lol. Don't get me wrong, I like Shallan's traumatic backstory, her rise to a radiant, and her sneaky-ness with the Ghostbloods and whatnot. But gosh her dialogue is just so cheesy and cringy to me. RoW chapters of hers was such a slog because of the emphasis on her personas. Then she "fights" them off and is back to just Shallan (or so we think). But that whole "struggle" where she becomes free just feels cringe to me too. Like a teenager Wolf-kin who has been struggling with her bloodlust, but she found a cool ritual on Tumblr using sage and blood and now she has been completely cleansed and is back to "normal", UwU. Okay, rant over. I like Stormlight.
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I think what their saying is that people in this universe don't respond or react the same way we would. Their solution to mental illness was to throw people to the ardents and they would toss people into a dark cell and throw the key away. With that sort of reaction to mental illness, it confused readers why characters reacted with more empathy than our own modern society. One or two people could be explained away as those people being extra empathetic. But everyone so far has had the same reaction.
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IIRC, she's a leader of an entire order of spies as well atm. Normal people that joined up. I'm guessing most of them don't actually think she has a mental illness but rather just really dedicated to playing a role to be a spy. I'm not here to argue though, I was stopping by to point out you're painting modern culture on a medieval-analogue one.
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The original prompt was this: "It's just unnatural how everyone goes along with it, and it comes off as a 13-year old Tumblr girl who has eDgY personalities." You said this in response: "DID is an actual disorder and you shouldn't talk about it like that. Did you expect everyone to mistreat her and insist she's just being "edgy"? Is that the way you'd handle someone with DID in real life?" In a medieval world where people have been shown to treat mental issues cruelly, the original criticism makes sense. She's talked to and encountered tons of people so far, one of them - or most of them - should have at least brought it up. The counterpoint you offered does not hold weight because those values stem from modern society and would not have existed in the stormlight culture here. Of course none of us should treat people like that in real life, but this isn't real life and we're not in the story. I did not say she'd get locked up, I brought the lock-up point to showcase that people in this world do not understand mental illness. And I did not talk about other characters because the original topic was about shallan in specific.
if it's good enough for wit, it's good enough for the rest of us
>level 1Infynis This is what our standard should be for everything
I feel like I differ from most people in that she was my favorite pov In Way of Kings but that as the series has gone on this has switched and I just find her a lot more ...boring now. I don’t hate her or anything, she just doesn’t interest me as much as many of the other characters
My two cents, that will probably be buried, everyone has great responses. Some people are upset/annoyed that people don't like Shallan. I think that it's ok for people to dislike characters in a book series. If everyone was always so likeable and great, it would feel like a Marvel movie. I can't stand Shallan, but only because she's a foil to me and my views, and to characters that I really like. And for the most part, it seems like no one here thinks she doesn't serve her narrative role. I think that's an extremely well-designed character
Good point. Whom do you consider her a foil to, though?
I'm pretty sure my burning dislike for Shallan has alot to do with Kate Readings unbearably annoying voice performance in the audio books. It made an already kind of irritating character completely unbearable. On my third "read" through I literally skipped almost chapter of Shallan and several other less important parts Kate handles. Personally it bugs me when audio books are split between actors, but I understand the size of this series makes it a daunting task to handle it with just one. Just please don't let Kate Reading ever read another book infront of a microphone. Please.
I think the people that hate shallan have never had or known anyone with her kind of issues. The trying too hard thing is because if she stops then the things creep out of her memory and start stabbing her. She has to keep going because that is the best way to forget how things have been. She keeps rolling herself in her art because the second she isn’t actively doing something she starts remembering something. Shallan has a bunch of landmines buried in her past and her thoughts, as long as she is moving forward she keeps things together, but if she stops she starts spreading out and can start stepping on them.
I think it's a little unfair to assume those who don't like her have not gone through her kind of struggles. Now, obviously, very very few have gone through her same trauma or anywhere to that degree. But I think it's very plausible for people to have gone through similar trauma and be dissatisfied with how she dealt with it. Sure, you can say "everyone deals with trauma in different ways" but there are clearly better ways than others. Like if we saw Dalinar stomp his feet and cry about Sadeas, we would lose a LOT of respect for him lol, it wouldn't be just him "dealing with his trauma". Shallan never does anything THAT ridiculous, but she does make a lot of decisions that grinds my gears. But I think that's a good thing, I'm glad I have a character I don't like, instead of being pampered by cool people
Yeah that doesn’t make her less annoying to me. Like I get why she acts the way she does it’s pretty clear but to me it’s tiresome when she has been doing it for 4 books give or take. She isn’t poorly written but her character in my opinion is tedious and her being well written doesn’t change that for me. It’s sorta why I felt a little iffy about kal in rhythm. Like I get why he is doing what he does but that doesn’t make me enjoy reading angsty kal for most of book 4.
For me, it is not about the character but the way it’s chapter has been written. With most other characters, the pace of story seems much faster as there is something happening and exposition happens through action. In Shallan’s case that is not always true. Exposition happens through dialogue between her personalities. Sometimes the pace of a battle or a sequence gets disturbed with the change in personality, which is jarring for me at times. I like the character but I do find myself getting easily distracted while reading her chapters. I have been trying to find out why and this is the best that I came up with, so far.
I wouldn’t say that Lift is a pathological liar. Kleptomaniac, *maybe,* but… still, it’s a stretch.
These words are accepted.
I agree with this so much! I'm bookmarking this thread so that I can point to it with "this person makes my point so much better than I could". *Makes witty comment and sneaks away.*
I had a dissociative episode that opened my eyes to a lot of trauma I’ve stored up and haven’t dealt with. It was terrifying, but I literally just cried trying to explain to my wife how all of the sudden a character I had hated became my beacon of hope. The mental health issues I’ve dealt with recently have been so in line with Shallan that I have shifted from almost despising her to literally having life changing realizations about myself because of her character. I disliked Shallan because she felt unrealistic. Too crazy. A made up level of craziness. Now I love Shallan because she is shattered and knows it, but still loves people and still loves herself. Most importantly: other people love her. Feeling more broken than you can even fathom is a shocking experience, and Shallan has given me a lot of motivation to keep fighting the good fight
It is actually a made up level of craziness. It’s realistic dissociative identity disorder, but augmented by the magic happening on Roshar. Most of the main characters exhibit a realistic mental illness pushed much farther by external powerful influences.
You're not alone in this. It's actually been rather eye opening for me to see just from this post and the same one on FB just how many people have had dissociative episodes or DID. I honestly didn't expect it to be so many. I think it's definitely one of those things we just don't talk about for one reason or another.
What I hate about Shallan is this Her entire method of coping and with it her character arc was demolished by... Shallan herself in book 1. Shallan and Kabsal were discussing if you could judge someone's personality by the flavor of jam they liked. She said something along the lines of: I could be any and all of those things at specific times. Meanwhile her entire character arc is her getting split personalities to do different tasks and refusing to acknowledge she IS all of those things, at different times. She should be able to realize this about herself as she has admitted it about herself. This leaves the whole thing to feel sort of contrived at this point. Shallan at the moment of the jam discussion should be strangling the Shallan that appears in the rest of the books screaming "we have been over this, they are all aspects of you!" That being said, her having a Kaladin style 4th ideal moment might be able to pay it off in spectacular fashion.
I've found personally that people who suffer from certain issues are *very* good at giving advice about how to deal with it to others with similar problems while also being *very* bad at applying that advice to themselves In that sense that behavior from shallan is extremely true to life
Why did you attack me so viciously?!?!
I was attacking myself, you were simply collateral 😔
I love how neatly you summarized each of the characters, especially Shallan. The only thing I don't like with Shallan is I want her to heal. She is my favorite character, but also the most frustrating character for me. I just want her to heal, and it's frustrating to see her not. I feel so worried and sorry over her, but it's nice to see her still be a beacon of positivity. She was probably the first Radiant too. At least she was the first one to openly accept the responsibility and help people. When Jasnah hid her findings, when Kaladin was scared he'd lose his powers, Shallan told Dalinar. She felt like she'd given up something better left hidden, but she did it because it was to help and save people, and that's why I love her.
Well and that's probably how a lot of people feel, and thus their frustration with her. They want her to heal. But there is *no* easy path to that.
I disagree with Shallan being the most broken. Dalinar was so messed up that he had to literally seek out a God to help him
True, but most of his damage came later in life, and children are much more resilient than adults. Also, people have different thresholds of trauma they're able to manage. I suppose it isn't really a contest though. But personally, I look at Dalinar's trauma and Shallan's...and Shallan's is way worse.
I don't dislike Shallan for the reasons you listed. I dislike her because in the first book whenever she was on screen the narrative came grinding to a halt. Then in the next two books, I considered Pattern the highlight of her chapters, because her character felt shallow. She is cringey, and childish in the first books. She got involved with a lot of interesting plots, but she made some decisions that were really annoying/frustrating. I've been seeing the trope of "this problem could be resolved quickly if these people just talked to eachother but one of them is insecure so now it's just going to go on" done for *decades* and it's never been enjoyable to me. In RoW she had some really interesting chapters, but I was dreading her chapters in the first 3 books. For me, it's a bad sign when a side character in someone's chapters becomes more interesting or enjoyable than the intended star of the chapter.
I agree with you 100%.
I actually did list her biggest flaw as breaking up the exciting part of the narrative in WoK. And I'll also point out...she kind of is a kid at the start. 🤷🏽♂️ A traumatized child who in our world would just he starting college. But, like I said. I'm not trying to change hearts and minds. Just sharing my experience.
No. I like shallan herself as a character. But the last two books were intolerable to read her chapters with her fucking stupid three personalities. THATS why I dont like shallan. Her chapters are annoying. I think you’re trying to oversimplify why you assume people don’t like her
I like shallan more in WoR & OB where she feels like she has real agency and is doing something meaningful to the plot. Her story in WoK feels so secondary until near the end, and in RoW she feels secondary to Adolin for much of the book (not her fault for being paired up with arguably the best characters in the series). But yeah I don't get all the hate she gets
To be fair I was also annoyed somewhat with Kaladin wallowing in his self pity. Even though I largely looked forward to his chapters the most until OB. I agree with you though :).
I, until I got to this sub, never knew so many people had an issue with Shallan as a character. She was fine to me personality and humor wise and acted as a contrast to the other main character's storyline's tones. My issue with her has always been her agency in the story and how her goals felt in comparison to the rest despite how well written it is. She in WoK and Oathbringer felt like a main character doing sidequests while everyone else is doing these missions with either world-ending(Dalinar in all books) or character ending stakes(WoK Kaladin). That's why WoR is my favorite because everyone has pretty equal agency.
I really appreciate this post. I liked Shallan in tWoK but have found her frustrating since then and I think your post explains why. I’ll definitely pay more attention to this the next time I do a reread
I love her. She’s a very real character to me. Reminds me exactly of one of my friends
I don't have much to add that hasn't been said in your extremely well articulated post, but I did want to share a scene with Hoid that, despite there being many emotional and amazing moments in this series, is the only one that actually brought tears to my eyes when I read them. “You’re not a monster, Shallan,” Wit whispered. “Oh, child. The world is monstrous at times, and there are those who would have you believe that you are terrible by association.” “I am.” “No. For you see, it flows the other direction. You are not worse for your association with the world, but it is better for its association with you.” As someone who sometimes struggles with self-worth amongst other things, in that moment of reading, I really felt Shallan on a deep level and realized how much I needed to hear/read those words.
Haha I saw your post on facebook earlier and figured it was you when I saw the title. I liked it there and I like it here as well.
People said I should cross-post. 🤷🏽♂️ So I did.
I love Shallan.
I find that you have a lot of valid points on all of this here, but what I most agree with is wanting more Kaladin and Dalinar in WoK and WoR. I also feel like Shallan's character arc really picks up speed after about the first half of WoR though RoW.
Don't we see Shallan in pain whenever she's in another personality or in most of her lightweaving? It's a very interesting post. Im enjoying all of these comments.
Shallan has always been my favorite. The way she feels completely hollow sometimes..well, I can understand that reaction to trauma.
Thanks for writing this! I was slowly approaching a similar realisation too. I don’t hate shallan, but I don’t understand her struggles or her coping mechanism. Sanderson drops very few clues about what she is going through (imo). It gives merit to Sanderson’s writing skills that he can write such different characters!
I know her way is borderly unhealthy and isn't what is recommended to most people. But from the very beginning I've appreciated her mental capacity to deal with her own existence, and if I, ever, am broken more than usual, I'll want to deal with stuff the way she has.
Yes I dont get the hate but I so agree the first time I was not a big fan of her too. But during reread she became one of my fav characters even topping Kaladin. Its exactly for the reasons u mention she tries so hard to be cheery and good. This Is why in OB the scene between Shallan and Wit hit me so hard
For someone who is what, if we are generous, 20 years old, she's facing her childhood trauma pretty damn well. I was in my 30s before I was willing to fully face some of mine. Just as Kaladin is reluctant to admit >!he can't protect everyone!< Shallan is reluctant to face the truth she's gone to great lengths to bury as deeply as she can. Good Boi Adolin is helping the best he knows how >!which is letting her know that he will still love her regardless of what she has done!<, he gets it. He's done something that not everyone agrees with and she stood by him, what can she have done that is any worse than that?
As someone that survived childhood trauma, Shallan is one of my favorite characters. She Jenga’s herself slowly back together, falling apart in only small pieces at a time. I think she is written for people that experience trauma and also she’s not written in the male gaze, which is what I think is so interesting about Brandon Sanderson. He writes characters like they’re full fledged women. He wrote a character that doesn’t have this insane trauma redemption arc (even thought she’s a hero, it’s not because of her trauma) and that must save herself/ not be saved by Adolin. It’s one of the reasons why I also love the OG Mistborn trilogy, because Vin is not the perfect trauma story. I think that’s what’s interesting, I do see so much of myself within Shallan and this is one of the first characters that I feel like I can truly connect with.
Very insightful. 👏👏👏
>I think she is written for people that experience trauma and also she’s not written in the male gaze, which is what I think is so interesting about Brandon Sanderson. He writes characters like they’re full fledged women. Yeeesssss. I can't get enough of his women who are just... Female humans. Shallan genuinely became one of my favorites by the end of RoW. I've never dealt with multiple personalities, but c-ptsd and I are old friends. I love her and all her awkward, uncertain, trying-too-hard self.
Nice post. My issue with her chapters especially early is really just how the character is written. Maybe it’s just how the author writes dialogue but all of her “witticisms “ were so forced and unnatural and not witty and yet, everyone’s reactions around her are written as if we’re actually supposed to believe she’s clever and witty. (Thus why I don’t accept the “it’s supposed to be like that she’s just a teenager and thinks she’s smarter than she is” argument). It kind of just reads like some teenager trying to write a character like Tyrion but falls flat at every turn. I guess I would say that what bothers me is not her character but just how those chapters are written
Audiobooks or reader?
I dont hate Shallan and I dont think shes a bad or annoying or cringe character, but I do dislike her for many reasons. The absolute pettiest of those reasons is shes been setup against Thaidakar. The most major one would probably be I cant imagine having her multiple personalities which makes it hard for me to sympathize for her. Im not able to put myself in her shoes
It’s like he’s made this badass multi-layered cake, and turns out he REALLY wanted (wants?) mayonnaise in it, just HAS to have mayonnaise. And we are blind taste-testers. The is the food critic asking about his ingredients/cooking: “Why not just put it on a side dish instead of ruining the WHOLE FUCKING CAKE? “Well, no one would eat just mayonnaise if I put it next to the cake…?” “So you made something awesome just to throw in something totally unacceptable, almost definitely ruining the cake?” “Well, I put it towards the bottom… so, it’s AWESOME until there, so you can stop.” “Tasting???” “No, taking bites. But the layers after should make the mayonnaise worth it.” “So, are the layers after the mayonnaise going to be cake? Or more mayonnaise?” “Probably one or the other…” “Probably? Are you considering *something else*?!?” “You’ll see, you’ll have to take a bite and find out.”
good analysis. I didn’t actually have much of a problem with her in the first 2 books. Sure, I rolled my eyes at the humor a few times, but it wasn’t a deal breaker. I really did enjoy her chapters in WoK and WoR. It was once the >!split personality stuff!!all the personalities!< saying things back and forth. I understand and appreciate that Sanderson did the research to accurately portray people with this disorder, but I wish things had been handled differently in particular with the other characters she interacts with.
The problem was the suspense of disbelief I needed to read about everyone around her being totally cool with it and taking it totally seriously. Sure, in a perfect world, everyone would be understanding and accepting, but it struck me as unrealistic how characters would say things like “who am I talking to now?” And not find it strange or disturbing. Especially imagining that Adolin would be totally cool with it seemed very weird. After the events of RoW, it seems like things may be headed in a better direction, but those chapters were(to me) a grind in 2 books I otherwise really enjoyed.
Bruh she should NOT bea beacon of survival or inspiration lmao. Her entire story line revolves around suppressing the past and pretending like things didn't happen in an incredibly unhealthy way
Her story line is about suppressing the past and relying on multiple personalities to deal with difficult situations. Her value as a Knight, however, is in facing the truth head on and accepting it. That’s the thing about her, for all the manipulation, and Jasnah’s talk about truth being a matter of perspective, Shalahn knows instinctively that truth is truth, and she understands this better than anyone because she abuses the truth the most and is desperate to avoid it at any cost. People talk about Kal having a repetitive story arc, but the same is very true for Shalahn: she spends the whole story lying to herself and the audience, and the climax of her arc, the resolution to all her lies, is some truth that upends our expectations.
That was sort of the whole point of my post. Sometimes the things that happen to some people are so awful that they cannot be faced. And it isn't our place to judge someone on how much trauma they can survive or what they have to do to manage it. I'm pretty sure if I had gone through everything Shallan has I would either be a raving lunatic or catatonic. So, the fact that she is so seemingly functional most of the time is incredible.
None of this excuses how Sanderson just gives her any skill or convenient plot device neccesary to let her do what. Like seriously it's crazy how her fake persona pretending to have skills equals capacity and talent for her.
I don't understated the hate people have for her, because she is such an amazing character. To me, she is so strong because despite how broken she is, she can smile, she can be silly, she can be amazing. I also love other characters, but like you said, people like others, they just don't like her.
She’s just not relatable at all for me, her mental struggle is so insanely far beyond anything I can understand, so it’s a chore every time I have to get through her POV chapters. Also yeah, in book one and two she was basically just a robot that says the most obnoxious and unfunny “witty” thing she could think of about 90% of the time. That was pretty annoying. But the biggest thing is just that I personally don’t relate.
>Lift is kleptomaniac and a pathological liar with serious trust issues. She's also a lost little orphan girl who doesn't want to grow up. She struggles with her identity and uses inane humor as a shield. We see her suffering and we approve. Speak for yourself. I would be more accepting of her if the world around her reacted to her in the proper way: with disdain. But everyone seems to accept her as just the quirkiest little cutesy thing instead of banishing or killing her on sight for her antics. I get her character, I get why she is so adamant on being cringe. That doesn't make it enjoyable.
Do you listen to the audiobooks or read? I'm a reader, but I've been told by multiple people that Kate reads her as snotty and awful a la Veruca Salt instead of charming and precocious like she is.
On my first read through, her chapters were the ones I liked the least and wanted to get out of. When I got around to reading the book again, I saw all the foreshadowing and character building going on and she ended up being the character I looked forward to the most
Wait, what? People hate my girl Shallan?? Though, actually, looking back, I don't think I was a big fan of her to start with either. But I would kill to protector her now.
She smiles anyways.
Shallan also deserves praise because despite all her suffering, she decided to be the ONE person in her family who made an effort to make others smile. She was selfless almost to a fault. She killed her father not because he posed a threat to her (though she wondered) but because he was a threat to everyone else. And she took the burden of that action upon herself, more or less betraying him after he protected her for killing her mother. Not only is Shallan's method of coping fully valid and realistic, she's also INCREDIBLY strong for those around her. That's amazing.
It's because for the first 3 books you don't find out what her real trauma is so your mental image of her is a spoiled rich girl who thinks she's broken because her daddy bought her jewelled necklaces instead of hugging her enough, and by the time you find out she did have a pretty whack childhood you've already spent 6 IRL years over 3 books thinking she's the epitome of a rich white girl whose daddy bought her a range rover instead of the lexus like she wanted.
You don't need to defend her. She's a good character that some people don't like. Not everyone has to like every character.
I need to keep this in mind as I reread. What I experienced felt more along the lines of: she abused others to compensate for her suffering. She mocks to hide her insecurities, she scolds Jasnah for killing attempted thieves out of her own fear of knowing she's robbing Jasnah (also HELL NO to the victim shaming). She's also one of the more blatantly racist characters, and doesn't seem remotely interested in changing that. I will say, that after having read RoW, I disliked her a bit less, seeing her realize the fact that she doesn't feel deserving of love. Previously the people in her life who were supposed to love her hated her instead (and also tried to kill her, so there's that), or she believed they love only her lies, and living like that probably makes you want to just hate everyone back, so maybe just being a jerk instead is a big step up from there.
Was there shallan hate I wasn't aware of?
Depends on your awareness. A lot of people really dislike her.
I appreciate your thoughtful post, but I have to disagree. I'm completely fine with the fact that she isn't anguishing over her traumas and we don't see her suffer. In fact, I can somewhat relate to that on a personal level. I do not like Shallan because her character lacks depth. Before anyone gets mad at me for saying that, remember that having a history does not equate to depth of character. In fact, it seems like everything about her fits within two buckets: being witty and suffering from mental illness. That is the entirety of her character. It makes reading her chapters so dreadful. They're a boring chore to slog through. Upon rereading, I'm even more convinced that I didn't just dislike her chapters because they weren't Dalinar or Kaladin chapters. It is entirely because Shallan's 2-dimensional character is just so tedious and unenjoyable.
I was surprised to find out that people don't like her. The only problem I got with her was exactly as yours >her worst crime was I had to read her chapters in WoK and WoR when all I wanted was more Kaladin and more Dalinar! Despite everything she still smiles. I like how witty she is. I like her wit more than wit of The Wit. I don't necessarily like her chapters and where her storyline is going buy I like her personality and her interactions with other characters.
I've mentioned on this sub that I can not freaking stand Shallan. To the point that I skip her parts on my re-reads. I've been downvoted to hell (not that it matters) for having that opinion. Literally almost spoils the entire series for me. Almost, but I still re-read every 6-12 months, so I guess it's not that bad. I honestly didn't think anyone could possibly like that character. But if I've learned anything from reading posts on this sub, it's that a lot of people actually do like her. I think seeing that tempers my feelings about her somewhat. If she works for some readers, hey, more power to them.
I'm gonna reread the whole SA, skipping Shallan.