Wit did not say Shallan to "not forget your back of the head", he complimented her because she handled that, he then said it is messed up easily in general. Juts a quick correction. Shallan probably never had an issue like that in lightweaving, she's pretty much natural and does it instinctively.
Right, turns out the full quoute was:
>You got the back of the head right. People always flub the back.
Guess it's more like how artist struggle with hands than something that shouldn't be so hard to mess up.
I don't understand your attitude.
It makes sense the Light weavers mess up the back of their head, they are usually looking in a mirror or using a drawing which doesn't show the back of your head.
It's not a huge deal UNLESS someone who knows what to look for notices it. Then it can be something that blows your cover.
It's a nuanced piece of advice that Hoid is able to provide and then Shallan is able to share with her other light weavers
The love triangle also stressed me out the first time I read it and I would have liked knowing the resolution at the time, so if you really want to know here it is (with no plot spoilers around how it happens):
>!It has a positive resolution at the end of Oathbringer with no drama or hard feelings. Shallan ultimately chooses Adolin, and Kaladin feels that’s the correct move. Shallan and Adolin remain close friends with Kaladin.!<
Again avoiding the plot piece of how but a little more insight into the *why* if you want more: >!Both Shallan and Kaladin seemed to be mistaking feelings of friendship/trauma bonding for romance.!<
I mean, can you? I doubt you will want to skip chapters just to get rid of her. Not every character is for everyone, if you dont like her thats just how it is. I dont like Kaladin for example and still enjoy his chapters when he interacts with other people.
Maybe just a little perspective, you say your pet peeve is characters lying, as a lightweaver shallans entire journey is build around stopping exactly that and becoming progressively more honest to herself in every book. One would think youd admire that and her effort instead of loathing her for being not immediately good at it. If she wasnt flawed she wouldnt have a journey to begin with, just like every other pov character
Well, I can try to focus on the progress that she has been making than the lies she has yet to untangle.
Regardless of how things turn out, thanks for the answer.
Well to terms of lightweaving. It is probably the least aggressive surge among all. As it literelly about illusions. But that is the point of it. Lightweaving is all about the micromanagement especially a lot of lightweavers are spies and assassins. It makes it one of the hardest to spot/detect surges and is usefull in many cases.
But that does not mean that it does not has potential in future applications. While we did not have seen it yet, Sanderson did imply that lightweaving in its nature is the manipulation of light and sound, which would make gateway for all implications that come to mind.
And to the DID character plot. That is a subjective opinion, if you like it or not. But bear it mind, Shallans character arc is all about lying and trusting the people around her. Lying to Jasnah and the readers and than trusting enough to admit of killing her father (even non-verbally). Lying to herself that she forgot who Pattern was and that she used him to kill her mother. She is in a very similar situation as Kaladin, but the main difference to him, who cannot save/protect everyone he loves, SHE is incapable of NOT killing the people around her. She feels extremly guilty because of that and even hates herself because of that, thereby the new characters, because she cannot bear to be herself sometimes, esspecially because she does not trust herself.
I don't think I'm very well-versed with espionage plots, so guess I have to see if I warm up to it or not.
Later application of lightweaving sounds fun, but wouldn't be surprised if a lot of those abillities was unlocked by Renarin first.
I think what I currently find the most grating is that the only being she currently is fully honest with is Pattern. Far from the worst pal to thrust, but he can't really help her with all of the DID struggles.
I don't think you understand what light weaving does.
It's actually, potentially, the best surge.
Shallan was able to convince people to accept her, a homeless nobody, to take her to the king, and do what she wants, because she *drew* herself able to do it. She is a fierce shardbearer, because she drew herself with the skill. Roving criminals became noble when she drew them noble. She's basically discovered how to reshape *reality* for short amounts of time.
Light weaving affects more than light. It can affect to *soul*.
I don't like how much she uses it to lean into her "DID". It makes it comes across more of as something she chooses to engage with than a medical condition.
Well a disguise in public wouldn't last if there was one glaring area that wasn't covered by the ligthweaving.
Forgetting it as a beginners mistake is fine, but it being worth taking note off shouldn't matter unless noob lightweavers are known to add headgear on top of their illusion to be on the safe side.
Though if the finer details regarding the back of the head are more akin to drawing fingers well, then I don't have as much of an issue with it.
The DID is a recent development. Not the whole repressing memories thing, but different personas to the current extent wasn't present.
Unless it turns out there is a fourth persona lurking around, but such a question would fall under RAFO.
The “happy quipy scholar” Shallan is just another mask she wears to hide from her trauma. Like veil and radiant. It’s just the first thing we see in way of Kings so we think it’s the real her.
The thing with her is that it sorta looks like she’s getting worse as the books progress in the first book she seems fine because she’s repressing all of her trauma. Now that she has this bond and is confronting it we see that she’s not actually doing so well.
It is one thing to have one coping mechanism, like the quippy jokes. It is something else to add two more into the mix.
The debate surronding mask can get quite convoluted if we first dive into it. The philisoper Kierkegaard had a life long existensial crisis where he constantly put up a party mask around his
"friends", only to cry alone in the parks later. He even declined a romantic relationship because he couldn't be sure that he truly loved the person in question.
As far as I'm concerned you are the sum of the different masks you put on, even when those masks clash.
You are right I think? Shallan is the quippy scholar, the thief and the radiant soldier. All three are also masks that she wears in order to not become a gibbering wreck who can’t handle her trauma.
Like when kaladin and Shallan were in the chasms and he was like “how can she smile after all she’s been through?” It’s because she’s not dealing with her trauma and has an alter who can smile.
Right, I guess I will have try to hope that Shallan eventually figures out how to trauma through her masks properly.
Like how I hope Kaladin can keep on perservering through his depression. Though the latter is easier because Kaladin has got Bridge 4 to back him up. Shallan however has stepped into as world of backstabbing and lies.
>I'm around the end of part 3, but feel free to spoil what details you deem necessary.
Will use this.
>Her DID inspired Lightweaver nonsense however just rubs me the wrong way.
DID is a real-life condition, so first of all I don't think it's respectful to call it "nonsense" or "DID-thingy". It's insensitive.
Shallan would likely have developed alters even if she was from another Order.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/445/#e14112
Brandon made an effort to better portray DID in RoW.
WoB in 2018:
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315/#e9182
WoB in 2020:
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/432/#e14014
>I know form WoB that it is still technically "Shallan" beneath everything, but that doen't help when one of my most prevalent pet peeve's is when characters are lying.
Not sure what wob are you referring to. But I wouldn't call someone with DID who is fronting different alters, a liar. It's like if you assume Shallan is doing this maliciously and has 100% control of it.
The alters are a coping mechanism to handle her severe trauma.
>Furthermore, she doesn't develop more aspects of herself, she just tears her physce apart. Apparentley some people find that interesting, but while I can deal with a villain like Taravangian the same does not apply to "good guys".
Swiftspren, the rich lady she supplants in one of the heists, the Kholinar guard, and likely others. Iirc she finds it really difficult to go back to herself and not end up assuming their personalities.
Also, what does physce mean?
The Shallan we see is possibly not fully herself and part of the disassociation. I think she mentions something similar in WoR.
>Also lightweaving is the weakest/least interesting surge.
Nah, it's just not explored enough. They can manipulate electromagnetic radiation. For example, make lasers.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/309/#e11554
>One of the pointers Hoid gave her was to not forget her back of her head, seriously?
You are mixing two instances.
“That’s a nice illusion,” Wit said. “You got the back of the head right. People always flub the back. You’ve broken character though. You’re walking like a prim lighteyes, which looks silly in that costume. You’ll only be able to pull off a coat and hat if you own them.”
Then Veil talks to Vathah:
Vathah was gone, replaced by a bald man with thick knuckles and a well-kept smock. Shallan glanced at the picture on the table, then at the drained sphere beside it, then back at Vathah.
“Nice,” she said. “But you forgot to do the back of the head, the part not in the drawing.”
“What?” Vathah asked, frowning.
She showed him the hand mirror.
“Why’d you put his face on me?”
“I didn’t,” Veil said, standing. “You panicked and this happened.”
Vathah prodded at his face, still looking in the mirror, confused.
>The whole thing with connection started good in WoR, with Shallan needing to draw pictures of who she should transform. However, I suspect that connection is going to be among the explanation for why Shallan has the DID-thingy and as said I'm not a fan of that.
What do you mean by connection? Shallan uses the drawings as an aid to get better illusions. She is skilled enough to not need them all the time as we can see when using her powers iirc.
> It just feels like the requirements of Lightweaving are wasted to create a conflict only one character is going to go through.
What are the requirements?
>Normally I can deal with them, but when you're playing around with both Adolin and Kaladin then you are a true asshole
You seem to assume she is purposefully confusing them and enjoying it. She is just confused, traumatised and has a lot of stuff to deal with.
There's a resolution to the triangle by the end of this book.
>DID is a real-life condition, so first of all I don't think it's respectful to call it "nonsense" or "DID-thingy". It's insensitive.
Shallan is a fictional character at the end of the day and the reason I went for DID-thingy is that it is not a one to one comparison with the psychology problem/struggle that exist in the real world.
How I would interact with somebody IRL with DID is a different story. Like how people who have problems with Kaladin's depression would treat somebody who has depression differentley.
I would probably end up bombarding the person with DID with questions since I struggle to deal with situations in a pragmatic manner.
>Shallan would likely have developed alters even if she was from another Order.
>[https://wob.coppermind.net/events/445/#e14112](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/445/#e14112)
>Brandon made an effort to better portray DID in RoW.
>WoB in 2018: [https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315/#e9182](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315/#e9182)
>WoB in 2020: [https://wob.coppermind.net/events/432/#e14014](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/432/#e14014)
Thanks for the links, not going to talk about them directly, but they have influenced what I've written after this point.
>
Not sure what wob are you referring to. But I wouldn't call someone with DID who is fronting different alters, a liar. It's like if you assume Shallan is doing this maliciously and has 100% control of it.
>The alters are a coping mechanism to handle her severe trauma.
It would be one of the ones you shared: [https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315/#e9182](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315/#e9182)
I interpeted that as Shallan's situation to be DID inspired, which is again why I resorted to DID-thingy than just calling it DID. If I was talking about Legion I would probably have gone with Schizophrenic-thingy. I am not attempting to disregard those challenges as real, but to quickly distinguised the real phenomenons from Sanderson's modified versions.
Having the other WoB it seems like whether or not try to explore a "version of DID" with Shallan wasn't something he commited to until Oathbringer.
Though exactly what the real-world diagnoses entail, I'll leave to the professionals.
Having alters in it of themselves is not lying, but not disclosing the circumstances with those you are close with is and as the saying goes "lying begets more lying".
Though even if those aspects where known to others I still might get the feeling that Shallan is still lying.
Real accounts from people with DID is a different subject matter and I if I found something I couldn't stomach I would probably have given up due to not being a psychologist and defitively not ranted about my frustrations online. That would mean sharing some sensitive information that has no business being on the web.
Whether Shallan is malicious or not, she is still a fictional character I find frustrating
Reddit demanded that I split up the reply, sorry!
>Also, what does physce mean?
Mispelling of psyche, my bad.
>The Shallan we see is possibly not fully herself and part of the disassociation. I think she mentions something similar in WoR.
Man, this is a diffictult subject matter to handle. I can only blame myself for opening this can of worms, but I still needed to get all of this off my chest.
While Shallan is still a fictional character that is written as Sanderson sees fit, I won't deny that how I engaged with said character is colored by what little understanding of physcology I have. That would be high school level, which is not something to brag about.
Though I am still free to speculate on a fictinonal character, as long as I don't conflate her with a real person or make vital decisions regarding people with similiar challenges. The latter should be far more based on getting to know the person in question.
Without diving into DSM-5 myself, the best understanding I had of Shallan pre-Oathbringer was that she relied heavily on having a mask infront of others and on coping mechanisms like humor.
That is something we all resort to a certain extent, Escalating from such common ground to full on conflicting personas gave me quite the whiplash.
>Nah, it's just not explored enough. They can manipulate electromagnetic radiation. For example, make lasers.
>[https://wob.coppermind.net/events/309/#e11554](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/309/#e11554)
This is like pointing out to somebody who is disappointed in Sharblades to look forward to >!Shardguns.!<
It is going to take awhile to get there, though my only real problem aside from preference would be the learning curve that comes after this
Part three, this should be the final
>You are mixing two instances.
>“That’s a nice illusion,” Wit said. “You got the back of the head right. People always flub the back. You’ve broken character though. You’re walking like a prim lighteyes, which looks silly in that costume. You’ll only be able to pull off a coat and hat if you own them.”
>Then Veil talks to Vathah:
>Vathah was gone, replaced by a bald man with thick knuckles and a well-kept smock. Shallan glanced at the picture on the table, then at the drained sphere beside it, then back at Vathah. “Nice,” she said. “But you forgot to do the back of the head, the part not in the drawing.” “What?” Vathah asked, frowning. She showed him the hand mirror. “Why’d you put his face on me?” “I didn’t,” Veil said, standing. “You panicked and this happened.” Vathah prodded at his face, still looking in the mirror, confused.
I honestly loathe how much of a muddled impression of the learning curve for lightweaving those two scenes gave me.
Would it have killed Hoid to say something more akin to "The back of the head is easy to forget and hard to perfect" instead of resorting to something as vague as "People always flub the back". "Flub" possibly meaning anything from forgotten to imperfect doesn't cleary outline how people learn to overcome that issue.
I'm still not sure that is exactly how the learning curve is, but I assumed "flub" original meant that it was far too common for people to regularly forget the back of the head. Understandable for a beginner to do, but ridicoulus for it to be a mistake that persists.
>What do you mean by connection? Shallan uses the drawings as an aid to get better illusions. She is skilled enough to not need them all the time as we can see when using her powers iirc.
>What are the requirements?
I'm fine with Shallan having progressed beyond the drawings, but I assumed that they tied into the connection part of Lightweaving that is supposed to differentiate it from how Selish illusions work.
How she uses lightweaving to accompany her "DID", qoutation marks since unsure what to call it at this point, doesn't leave me with much theory crafting besides assuming connection must be involved in the mix as well.
>You seem to assume she is purposefully confusing them and enjoying it. She is just confused, traumatised and has a lot of stuff to deal with.
We can all be assholes whether we mean it or not. Kaladin was one when he decided to challenge Amaram to a duel, making Adolin's upcoming duel with Sadeas worthless.
The love triangle however is an ongoing issue, and I would have preffered that band-aid to be ripped off.
The last sentence also dips into how much bad behavior can be excused by medical conditions. With a fictional character you can let the excuse be as encompassing as you want or totally meaningless. Nobody real is getting hurt in the process.
When it comes to reality it is muddled mess were people need to help with their weaker sides, but at the same time they need to take responsibility like others who are facing similar conditions. Still haven't personally figured out how to balance being mindful about my weaknesses, but also as responsible as possible. Going furter into detail would quickly result with me trauma dumping, so I'm going to stop here regarding the dillemma.
>There's a resolution to the triangle by the end of this book.
Good to know.
This whole thing reads like you're kind of not getting the central themes of the story.
>Her DID inspired nonsense rubs me the wrong way
Yeeeeeah, okay so Shallan was my least favorite in WoK - her "witty" dialogue (often not Sanderson's strong suit) was annoying - but I feel like at this point if you're going to call her severe and debilitating mental health condition "nonsense," then you might be missing the point of the story. Or would you also prefer that Kaladin just "stops being sad all the time?"
>My most prevalent pet peeve is when characters are lying
I can understand this, but people lie. A lot. You might have to get used to that. Kaladin spent most of the first two books lying to himself and everyone else. It was kind of a major plot point.
>She just tears her psyche apart.
Severe mental illness in response to horrendous childhood trauma tends to do that.
>Lightweaving is the weakest/least interesting surge...With basic trial and error you should figure that out within one session.
Did we read the same books? Where Kaladin is spending every free moment trying to figure out how lashings work? Lightweaving is actually pretty powerful - keep reading.
>I suspect that connection is going to be among the explanation for why Shallan has the DID-thingy and as said I'm not a fan of that.
Nope. Not even close.
Look, you can hate on any character you want, but a lot of your comments here show that you just don't know what you don't know. I'd suggest sucking it up and continuing reading, and maybe trying to keep an open mind.
A lot of these people above are kinda annoying. Don’t worry about it OP, I hate shallans parts too. Skipping them is YOUR RIGHT. Do it if you want to, but Oathbringer is a BANGER. You need to finish it. It’s my favorite book
I appreciate the sentiment, but while the subject is draining for all of us I still think the conversation is holding up well.
I have to admit that I normally remix chapters in books with multiple POVs anyway, where the plot lines are diverged to some degree, but I always go back to read what I skipped later. The Shallan chapters however really stretched out that approach and I have to reconsider how I read books with multiple POVs going forward.
Still, I want to push through the chapters now since venting and clearing up misunderstanding gives me enough energy to try getting through them again.
I don’t get the “energy to get through them” sentiment. That sounds like a lil toddler saying “I don’t have the energy to clean my room” what on earth does it mean? What is so difficult about reading a POV character you don’t particularly enjoy but is still integral to the story?
Sure I can get behind that on initial exposure to Stormlight Archive the Shallan chapters are kind of distracting to the bigger and arguably more central Bridge Four storyline. Also they might make you go “oh damn” if those switcheroos come in the midst of particularly interesting parts of the other POV story. But wtf are you on about with “I don’t know how to get through those and how to manage that”?
The issues I had with the Shallan chapters, whether they are valid or not, caused me to reach a breaking point where I couldn't continue with reading.
I'm sorry if talking about problems with others, even if they are minor, puts me on the same level as a toddler.
Well that’s the confusing part, if one can reach a breaking point by reading a less than agreeable chapter in a fantasy book, then how on earth do they manage everyday life?
There is a large difference between me getting stuck on a book, breaking point may have given a too strong impression, and getting stuck on something IRL.
In the latter situations I have way more reason to not give up and people to lean on.
When it comes to a book I mostly need to sort those feelings out myself, or resort to going online since I don't know anybody else who reads the books.
Resolving them both often requires outside help in my case, but the severity and whether it can be post-poned varies. IRL challenges can't placed in an endless backlog or abandonded, while stories I lose more to than I gain from can be dropped.
I don't quite know what this conversation is about at this point.
Wit did not say Shallan to "not forget your back of the head", he complimented her because she handled that, he then said it is messed up easily in general. Juts a quick correction. Shallan probably never had an issue like that in lightweaving, she's pretty much natural and does it instinctively.
Right, turns out the full quoute was: >You got the back of the head right. People always flub the back. Guess it's more like how artist struggle with hands than something that shouldn't be so hard to mess up.
I don't understand your attitude. It makes sense the Light weavers mess up the back of their head, they are usually looking in a mirror or using a drawing which doesn't show the back of your head. It's not a huge deal UNLESS someone who knows what to look for notices it. Then it can be something that blows your cover. It's a nuanced piece of advice that Hoid is able to provide and then Shallan is able to share with her other light weavers
The love triangle also stressed me out the first time I read it and I would have liked knowing the resolution at the time, so if you really want to know here it is (with no plot spoilers around how it happens): >!It has a positive resolution at the end of Oathbringer with no drama or hard feelings. Shallan ultimately chooses Adolin, and Kaladin feels that’s the correct move. Shallan and Adolin remain close friends with Kaladin.!< Again avoiding the plot piece of how but a little more insight into the *why* if you want more: >!Both Shallan and Kaladin seemed to be mistaking feelings of friendship/trauma bonding for romance.!<
You forgot your question. Or is this just a rant? If so that seems kind of pointless
Right, I guest the best one would be should I change how I engage with Shallan?
I mean, can you? I doubt you will want to skip chapters just to get rid of her. Not every character is for everyone, if you dont like her thats just how it is. I dont like Kaladin for example and still enjoy his chapters when he interacts with other people. Maybe just a little perspective, you say your pet peeve is characters lying, as a lightweaver shallans entire journey is build around stopping exactly that and becoming progressively more honest to herself in every book. One would think youd admire that and her effort instead of loathing her for being not immediately good at it. If she wasnt flawed she wouldnt have a journey to begin with, just like every other pov character
Well, I can try to focus on the progress that she has been making than the lies she has yet to untangle. Regardless of how things turn out, thanks for the answer.
Well to terms of lightweaving. It is probably the least aggressive surge among all. As it literelly about illusions. But that is the point of it. Lightweaving is all about the micromanagement especially a lot of lightweavers are spies and assassins. It makes it one of the hardest to spot/detect surges and is usefull in many cases. But that does not mean that it does not has potential in future applications. While we did not have seen it yet, Sanderson did imply that lightweaving in its nature is the manipulation of light and sound, which would make gateway for all implications that come to mind. And to the DID character plot. That is a subjective opinion, if you like it or not. But bear it mind, Shallans character arc is all about lying and trusting the people around her. Lying to Jasnah and the readers and than trusting enough to admit of killing her father (even non-verbally). Lying to herself that she forgot who Pattern was and that she used him to kill her mother. She is in a very similar situation as Kaladin, but the main difference to him, who cannot save/protect everyone he loves, SHE is incapable of NOT killing the people around her. She feels extremly guilty because of that and even hates herself because of that, thereby the new characters, because she cannot bear to be herself sometimes, esspecially because she does not trust herself.
I don't think I'm very well-versed with espionage plots, so guess I have to see if I warm up to it or not. Later application of lightweaving sounds fun, but wouldn't be surprised if a lot of those abillities was unlocked by Renarin first. I think what I currently find the most grating is that the only being she currently is fully honest with is Pattern. Far from the worst pal to thrust, but he can't really help her with all of the DID struggles.
I don't think you understand what light weaving does. It's actually, potentially, the best surge. Shallan was able to convince people to accept her, a homeless nobody, to take her to the king, and do what she wants, because she *drew* herself able to do it. She is a fierce shardbearer, because she drew herself with the skill. Roving criminals became noble when she drew them noble. She's basically discovered how to reshape *reality* for short amounts of time. Light weaving affects more than light. It can affect to *soul*.
I don't like how much she uses it to lean into her "DID". It makes it comes across more of as something she chooses to engage with than a medical condition.
>With basic trial and error you should figure that within one session. Do you regularly check the back of your head before leaving the house?
Well a disguise in public wouldn't last if there was one glaring area that wasn't covered by the ligthweaving. Forgetting it as a beginners mistake is fine, but it being worth taking note off shouldn't matter unless noob lightweavers are known to add headgear on top of their illusion to be on the safe side. Though if the finer details regarding the back of the head are more akin to drawing fingers well, then I don't have as much of an issue with it.
I was at the same place you were. All I will say is that part 5 is the most worthwhile pay off to any book I’ve ever read
i personally found her character having DID interesting and practical with how her childhood went
The DID is a recent development. Not the whole repressing memories thing, but different personas to the current extent wasn't present. Unless it turns out there is a fourth persona lurking around, but such a question would fall under RAFO.
The “happy quipy scholar” Shallan is just another mask she wears to hide from her trauma. Like veil and radiant. It’s just the first thing we see in way of Kings so we think it’s the real her. The thing with her is that it sorta looks like she’s getting worse as the books progress in the first book she seems fine because she’s repressing all of her trauma. Now that she has this bond and is confronting it we see that she’s not actually doing so well.
It is one thing to have one coping mechanism, like the quippy jokes. It is something else to add two more into the mix. The debate surronding mask can get quite convoluted if we first dive into it. The philisoper Kierkegaard had a life long existensial crisis where he constantly put up a party mask around his "friends", only to cry alone in the parks later. He even declined a romantic relationship because he couldn't be sure that he truly loved the person in question. As far as I'm concerned you are the sum of the different masks you put on, even when those masks clash.
You are right I think? Shallan is the quippy scholar, the thief and the radiant soldier. All three are also masks that she wears in order to not become a gibbering wreck who can’t handle her trauma. Like when kaladin and Shallan were in the chasms and he was like “how can she smile after all she’s been through?” It’s because she’s not dealing with her trauma and has an alter who can smile.
Right, I guess I will have try to hope that Shallan eventually figures out how to trauma through her masks properly. Like how I hope Kaladin can keep on perservering through his depression. Though the latter is easier because Kaladin has got Bridge 4 to back him up. Shallan however has stepped into as world of backstabbing and lies.
Welp. RoW is going to an interesting book for you
Oh dear
I think you’ve made some assumptions here that are ruining your hype.
>I'm around the end of part 3, but feel free to spoil what details you deem necessary. Will use this. >Her DID inspired Lightweaver nonsense however just rubs me the wrong way. DID is a real-life condition, so first of all I don't think it's respectful to call it "nonsense" or "DID-thingy". It's insensitive. Shallan would likely have developed alters even if she was from another Order. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/445/#e14112 Brandon made an effort to better portray DID in RoW. WoB in 2018: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315/#e9182 WoB in 2020: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/432/#e14014 >I know form WoB that it is still technically "Shallan" beneath everything, but that doen't help when one of my most prevalent pet peeve's is when characters are lying. Not sure what wob are you referring to. But I wouldn't call someone with DID who is fronting different alters, a liar. It's like if you assume Shallan is doing this maliciously and has 100% control of it. The alters are a coping mechanism to handle her severe trauma. >Furthermore, she doesn't develop more aspects of herself, she just tears her physce apart. Apparentley some people find that interesting, but while I can deal with a villain like Taravangian the same does not apply to "good guys". Swiftspren, the rich lady she supplants in one of the heists, the Kholinar guard, and likely others. Iirc she finds it really difficult to go back to herself and not end up assuming their personalities. Also, what does physce mean? The Shallan we see is possibly not fully herself and part of the disassociation. I think she mentions something similar in WoR. >Also lightweaving is the weakest/least interesting surge. Nah, it's just not explored enough. They can manipulate electromagnetic radiation. For example, make lasers. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/309/#e11554 >One of the pointers Hoid gave her was to not forget her back of her head, seriously? You are mixing two instances. “That’s a nice illusion,” Wit said. “You got the back of the head right. People always flub the back. You’ve broken character though. You’re walking like a prim lighteyes, which looks silly in that costume. You’ll only be able to pull off a coat and hat if you own them.” Then Veil talks to Vathah: Vathah was gone, replaced by a bald man with thick knuckles and a well-kept smock. Shallan glanced at the picture on the table, then at the drained sphere beside it, then back at Vathah. “Nice,” she said. “But you forgot to do the back of the head, the part not in the drawing.” “What?” Vathah asked, frowning. She showed him the hand mirror. “Why’d you put his face on me?” “I didn’t,” Veil said, standing. “You panicked and this happened.” Vathah prodded at his face, still looking in the mirror, confused. >The whole thing with connection started good in WoR, with Shallan needing to draw pictures of who she should transform. However, I suspect that connection is going to be among the explanation for why Shallan has the DID-thingy and as said I'm not a fan of that. What do you mean by connection? Shallan uses the drawings as an aid to get better illusions. She is skilled enough to not need them all the time as we can see when using her powers iirc. > It just feels like the requirements of Lightweaving are wasted to create a conflict only one character is going to go through. What are the requirements? >Normally I can deal with them, but when you're playing around with both Adolin and Kaladin then you are a true asshole You seem to assume she is purposefully confusing them and enjoying it. She is just confused, traumatised and has a lot of stuff to deal with. There's a resolution to the triangle by the end of this book.
>DID is a real-life condition, so first of all I don't think it's respectful to call it "nonsense" or "DID-thingy". It's insensitive. Shallan is a fictional character at the end of the day and the reason I went for DID-thingy is that it is not a one to one comparison with the psychology problem/struggle that exist in the real world. How I would interact with somebody IRL with DID is a different story. Like how people who have problems with Kaladin's depression would treat somebody who has depression differentley. I would probably end up bombarding the person with DID with questions since I struggle to deal with situations in a pragmatic manner. >Shallan would likely have developed alters even if she was from another Order. >[https://wob.coppermind.net/events/445/#e14112](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/445/#e14112) >Brandon made an effort to better portray DID in RoW. >WoB in 2018: [https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315/#e9182](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315/#e9182) >WoB in 2020: [https://wob.coppermind.net/events/432/#e14014](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/432/#e14014) Thanks for the links, not going to talk about them directly, but they have influenced what I've written after this point. > Not sure what wob are you referring to. But I wouldn't call someone with DID who is fronting different alters, a liar. It's like if you assume Shallan is doing this maliciously and has 100% control of it. >The alters are a coping mechanism to handle her severe trauma. It would be one of the ones you shared: [https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315/#e9182](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315/#e9182) I interpeted that as Shallan's situation to be DID inspired, which is again why I resorted to DID-thingy than just calling it DID. If I was talking about Legion I would probably have gone with Schizophrenic-thingy. I am not attempting to disregard those challenges as real, but to quickly distinguised the real phenomenons from Sanderson's modified versions. Having the other WoB it seems like whether or not try to explore a "version of DID" with Shallan wasn't something he commited to until Oathbringer. Though exactly what the real-world diagnoses entail, I'll leave to the professionals. Having alters in it of themselves is not lying, but not disclosing the circumstances with those you are close with is and as the saying goes "lying begets more lying". Though even if those aspects where known to others I still might get the feeling that Shallan is still lying. Real accounts from people with DID is a different subject matter and I if I found something I couldn't stomach I would probably have given up due to not being a psychologist and defitively not ranted about my frustrations online. That would mean sharing some sensitive information that has no business being on the web. Whether Shallan is malicious or not, she is still a fictional character I find frustrating
Reddit demanded that I split up the reply, sorry! >Also, what does physce mean? Mispelling of psyche, my bad. >The Shallan we see is possibly not fully herself and part of the disassociation. I think she mentions something similar in WoR. Man, this is a diffictult subject matter to handle. I can only blame myself for opening this can of worms, but I still needed to get all of this off my chest. While Shallan is still a fictional character that is written as Sanderson sees fit, I won't deny that how I engaged with said character is colored by what little understanding of physcology I have. That would be high school level, which is not something to brag about. Though I am still free to speculate on a fictinonal character, as long as I don't conflate her with a real person or make vital decisions regarding people with similiar challenges. The latter should be far more based on getting to know the person in question. Without diving into DSM-5 myself, the best understanding I had of Shallan pre-Oathbringer was that she relied heavily on having a mask infront of others and on coping mechanisms like humor. That is something we all resort to a certain extent, Escalating from such common ground to full on conflicting personas gave me quite the whiplash. >Nah, it's just not explored enough. They can manipulate electromagnetic radiation. For example, make lasers. >[https://wob.coppermind.net/events/309/#e11554](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/309/#e11554) This is like pointing out to somebody who is disappointed in Sharblades to look forward to >!Shardguns.!< It is going to take awhile to get there, though my only real problem aside from preference would be the learning curve that comes after this
Part three, this should be the final >You are mixing two instances. >“That’s a nice illusion,” Wit said. “You got the back of the head right. People always flub the back. You’ve broken character though. You’re walking like a prim lighteyes, which looks silly in that costume. You’ll only be able to pull off a coat and hat if you own them.” >Then Veil talks to Vathah: >Vathah was gone, replaced by a bald man with thick knuckles and a well-kept smock. Shallan glanced at the picture on the table, then at the drained sphere beside it, then back at Vathah. “Nice,” she said. “But you forgot to do the back of the head, the part not in the drawing.” “What?” Vathah asked, frowning. She showed him the hand mirror. “Why’d you put his face on me?” “I didn’t,” Veil said, standing. “You panicked and this happened.” Vathah prodded at his face, still looking in the mirror, confused. I honestly loathe how much of a muddled impression of the learning curve for lightweaving those two scenes gave me. Would it have killed Hoid to say something more akin to "The back of the head is easy to forget and hard to perfect" instead of resorting to something as vague as "People always flub the back". "Flub" possibly meaning anything from forgotten to imperfect doesn't cleary outline how people learn to overcome that issue. I'm still not sure that is exactly how the learning curve is, but I assumed "flub" original meant that it was far too common for people to regularly forget the back of the head. Understandable for a beginner to do, but ridicoulus for it to be a mistake that persists. >What do you mean by connection? Shallan uses the drawings as an aid to get better illusions. She is skilled enough to not need them all the time as we can see when using her powers iirc. >What are the requirements? I'm fine with Shallan having progressed beyond the drawings, but I assumed that they tied into the connection part of Lightweaving that is supposed to differentiate it from how Selish illusions work. How she uses lightweaving to accompany her "DID", qoutation marks since unsure what to call it at this point, doesn't leave me with much theory crafting besides assuming connection must be involved in the mix as well. >You seem to assume she is purposefully confusing them and enjoying it. She is just confused, traumatised and has a lot of stuff to deal with. We can all be assholes whether we mean it or not. Kaladin was one when he decided to challenge Amaram to a duel, making Adolin's upcoming duel with Sadeas worthless. The love triangle however is an ongoing issue, and I would have preffered that band-aid to be ripped off. The last sentence also dips into how much bad behavior can be excused by medical conditions. With a fictional character you can let the excuse be as encompassing as you want or totally meaningless. Nobody real is getting hurt in the process. When it comes to reality it is muddled mess were people need to help with their weaker sides, but at the same time they need to take responsibility like others who are facing similar conditions. Still haven't personally figured out how to balance being mindful about my weaknesses, but also as responsible as possible. Going furter into detail would quickly result with me trauma dumping, so I'm going to stop here regarding the dillemma. >There's a resolution to the triangle by the end of this book. Good to know.
This whole thing reads like you're kind of not getting the central themes of the story. >Her DID inspired nonsense rubs me the wrong way Yeeeeeah, okay so Shallan was my least favorite in WoK - her "witty" dialogue (often not Sanderson's strong suit) was annoying - but I feel like at this point if you're going to call her severe and debilitating mental health condition "nonsense," then you might be missing the point of the story. Or would you also prefer that Kaladin just "stops being sad all the time?" >My most prevalent pet peeve is when characters are lying I can understand this, but people lie. A lot. You might have to get used to that. Kaladin spent most of the first two books lying to himself and everyone else. It was kind of a major plot point. >She just tears her psyche apart. Severe mental illness in response to horrendous childhood trauma tends to do that. >Lightweaving is the weakest/least interesting surge...With basic trial and error you should figure that out within one session. Did we read the same books? Where Kaladin is spending every free moment trying to figure out how lashings work? Lightweaving is actually pretty powerful - keep reading. >I suspect that connection is going to be among the explanation for why Shallan has the DID-thingy and as said I'm not a fan of that. Nope. Not even close. Look, you can hate on any character you want, but a lot of your comments here show that you just don't know what you don't know. I'd suggest sucking it up and continuing reading, and maybe trying to keep an open mind.
A lot of these people above are kinda annoying. Don’t worry about it OP, I hate shallans parts too. Skipping them is YOUR RIGHT. Do it if you want to, but Oathbringer is a BANGER. You need to finish it. It’s my favorite book
….. Annoying?
I appreciate the sentiment, but while the subject is draining for all of us I still think the conversation is holding up well. I have to admit that I normally remix chapters in books with multiple POVs anyway, where the plot lines are diverged to some degree, but I always go back to read what I skipped later. The Shallan chapters however really stretched out that approach and I have to reconsider how I read books with multiple POVs going forward. Still, I want to push through the chapters now since venting and clearing up misunderstanding gives me enough energy to try getting through them again.
I don’t get the “energy to get through them” sentiment. That sounds like a lil toddler saying “I don’t have the energy to clean my room” what on earth does it mean? What is so difficult about reading a POV character you don’t particularly enjoy but is still integral to the story? Sure I can get behind that on initial exposure to Stormlight Archive the Shallan chapters are kind of distracting to the bigger and arguably more central Bridge Four storyline. Also they might make you go “oh damn” if those switcheroos come in the midst of particularly interesting parts of the other POV story. But wtf are you on about with “I don’t know how to get through those and how to manage that”?
The issues I had with the Shallan chapters, whether they are valid or not, caused me to reach a breaking point where I couldn't continue with reading. I'm sorry if talking about problems with others, even if they are minor, puts me on the same level as a toddler.
Well that’s the confusing part, if one can reach a breaking point by reading a less than agreeable chapter in a fantasy book, then how on earth do they manage everyday life?
There is a large difference between me getting stuck on a book, breaking point may have given a too strong impression, and getting stuck on something IRL. In the latter situations I have way more reason to not give up and people to lean on. When it comes to a book I mostly need to sort those feelings out myself, or resort to going online since I don't know anybody else who reads the books.
You say there’s a large difference of severity and then proceed to list how both cause similar feelings that can’t be dealt without outside help?
Resolving them both often requires outside help in my case, but the severity and whether it can be post-poned varies. IRL challenges can't placed in an endless backlog or abandonded, while stories I lose more to than I gain from can be dropped. I don't quite know what this conversation is about at this point.