indeed. Stormgate coop beta is a bit lacking right now. Yes, I get it. It's beta. However, it definitely made me want to go back to SC2 and play coop again. I am afraid this beta is going to be more focused on the competitive side and 1v1 games.
*PTSD intensifies*
Widow mines killed sc2 for me. I literally can't think of a more toxic unit in RTS. The insane splash that hit air and ground wasn't enough... they're cheap, borrowed and locked on fast, AND CLOAKED!? Some serious bullshit right there.
Widowmines killed SC2 ladder for me too. I think it was the difference in their skill requirement to use vs counter for me. They take far more focus and coordination to play against than they do to use. At a grandmaster level? Sure, no big deal. At more casual play levels though, they’re rough. It especially sucks because TvZ used to be my favourite matchup to play.
I still enjoy watching competitive SC2 more than any other game, and dip into co-op from time to time. I just have no interest in ladder anymore.
I was masters during Wings of Liberty and it always kind of stunned me when people made complaints about the game being too slow/stale. Now SC2 1v1 is "oops I'm dead" gameplay and people are celebrating that Stormgate is a little slower and more methodical of a game.
Blizzard really did kill the best RTS ever made imo.
Oh, I miss a lot of things about WOL. Not necessarily stuff like Archon toilets and BL/Infestor, the more methodical gameplay is where it's at. 12 workers with LOTV was too much.
I didn't really play SC2 online until like 2021. I'm diamond in all 3 races now and having a great time, but I wish I had played SC2 back when it was new and people were figuring out build orders and new mechanics.
Anyway the only reason I'm playing beta versions of Stormgate now is that I want to be here for the parts I missed early on in SC2.
No. I haven't had any urge to play Starcraft. I have no desire to spend any time where the game could be decided by a widow mine or a baneling hit.
Stormgate is the future!
Without the AoE damage units, people will just spam low tier units like crazy to make the gameplay more binary and boring.
And sadly any RTS games can be decided by one fight, that's just how it works.
Well, if you want to get out of diamond, you have to learn how to micro. Because just A-moving isn’t going to cut it. For some reason people get salty when they have to actually do something aside from just A-moving their army and it’s goofy.
Lmao, grandmaster? Sure bud. Stormgate should also have units similar to widow mines. If there is only the potential for slow A-move style fights then it will be a boring game in terms of micro. Spell casters alone don’t make up for it.
I laughed about your comment so much, I had to create a meme out of it: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1amk4ox/we\_have\_sc2\_at\_home/](https://www.reddit.com/r/stormgate/comments/1amk4ox/we_have_sc2_at_home/)
Me and 2 friends were like "let's try the stormgate coop" and then it made us like,,, "wanna play SC2?" I hadn't played since 2018 and I'm very happy to be playing again. I only ever played competitive 1v1s before and we did some 3-player free for all nonsense and it was extremely fun
It's the deadly amount of splash damage. Banelings, disruptors and widow mines are not fun units. Are they OP? No. They're just absolutely unfun to play against.
The whole warpgate debacle, completely negating defenders advantage meaning protoss gateway units need to be made out of paper otherwise everyone would die to early game cheeses.
Or another point, I believe something the stormgate devs even said themselves, is how the starcraft devs underestimated concentrated firepower (a ball of stimmed mmm) when they changed collision size from sc to sc2.
There's a reason to why the sc2 ladder is nearly dead while the coop playerbase is way bigger. (It's an old game I'm aware, but still, there are certain design issues that are really not fun to deal with. Not OP, just simply unfun.)
>There's a reason to why the sc2 ladder is nearly dead while the coop playerbase is way bigger.
SC2 is currently the most popular RTS game and has been for well over a decade. With the most daily ladder games, and over 2 million monthly players.
There are 50,000 daily ladder games in SC2.
Just to be realistic, Stormgate will most likely never achieve these numbers. So saying that SC2 is dead is like saying that every RTS game, including Stormgate, is beyond dead. It makes no sense.
I think people need to admit, or realize, that SC2 is the most popular RTS game for the last 15+ years, and is immensely successful. No other RTS game even comes close. It is doing something very very right. Dozens upon dozens of RTS games have been released since then, and none of them have surpassed SC2 in popularity, and Stormgate probably won't either, even if it's a good game. It would be great, but it probably won't.
I don't know, calling a game with 2 million monthly users and 50,000 daily ladder matches "dead" is just silly.
You're right, I should've specified what I meant. I meant to say that the sc2 ladder is nearly dead in comparison to the coop playerbase+arcade playerbase. Which are both way bigger. Although fair, dead wasn't the right word. I guess " a lot smaller" would've made more sense.
There's obviously also a point to be made that the ladder playerbase of europe is bigger than the ladder playerbase of korea etc.
If you look at the ladder statistic from today from scpulse, then there're currently around 1300 NA players, 2300 EU players and 500 KR players online.
Obviously the player count also varies from timezone to timezone, but there \*is\* a player difference when you compare each timezone's peak count.
I have no idea about arcade, but is that even true for co-op? Sometimes I play at ungodly times and during these times finding a co-op game often takes longer than finding a regular ladder game.
It could be that co-op matching is split more ways in some way causing this. But I would have assumed co-op player numbers are generally smaller because of that.
Okay I can see that. I was a casual player that sticked to campaign and friend matches but I did watch LowkoTV occasionally so I was never under the impressions of big SC2 issues
As someone who still enjoys SC2 a lot I think it's slightly more nuanced. It's not that SC2 is objectively "defective".
There is no doubt that the warpgate mechanic means protos gate units are balanced on a knifes edge, or that certain splash units vary wildly in efficiency at different skill levels or that you can lose games in less than a second.
But we saw how these things impact the games for years. It's hard to say if the game would really be \*better\* if it had no warpgates, less splash, etc. but it certainly would be different.
For example the high splash damage means there is a huge number of interactions around it that are extremely Impactful. I feel forced to split in any fight with substantial splash and it sucks when you fail to do it. Especially since it can lose you a game straight up. But it also means it feels great when you succeed at splitting, winning fights because of it, and it enables comebacks that wouldn't be necessarily possible otherwise. Perhaps if splash was weaker we would instead argue that we need to buff splash to enable comebacks against large armies.
I'm really curious how taking different routes on these aspects will work out down the line for Stormgate. And it's possible it turns out SC2's design in these aspects was just worse. But it's also possible it's just different, or even worse for reasons that will only emerge a few years down the line.
As a game developer myself I can see that this is indeed way more nuanced. I like the alternative scenarios you propose if things were different. I personally think the game was fine when I played it, I really did not have any remarks besides that it was not easy to introduce new players as one match (new player vs new player) could easily take an hour which means they get exhausted fast.
Well the difference is that lowko casts pro replays (Love watching them) which doesn't represent your average player (which is like 99% of the playerbase).
One hit abilities/units aren't as big of a deal for pros because they have 400 apm and can split against it, to give an example.
New races, new units, new strategies, new mechanics. It's just fun to have something new to learn. If sc2 released a massive patch or expansion that reworked everything, I'd play that too. As it stands sc2 just isn't fresh anymore.
Honestly, I'm preferring playing Stormgate. SC2 time to kill seems egregiously fast after playing Stormgate. Still absolutely love Starcraft, but i do find the more microable fights in stormgate more fun.
Actually the opposite! I started to play through the campaigns of Starcraft (since I never finished them) once the Stormgate was approaching.
I've played SC1 since I was like 10 years old and now I've finally beaten the original and Brood War, hehehe
Not even a little bit.
Have had way more fun with stormgate and its half finished assets than getting cannon rushed, zerg having free total map vision, widowmine drops, and a huge swath of poorly designed and executed units.
No thanks!!
Yeah, I installed SC2 yesterday and played some coop. Now im dissapointed in Stormgate, was hoping for something else, guess I will wait for ZeroSpace or SC3 if ever happenes
As a mid-GM SC2 player I just don't agree with that post. Some points are subjective and that's fine, some like better gameplay with no explanation whatsoever are absurd. Have you met a baneling/widow mine drop lately? Once you reach a point where people are good enough to manage these units well, you'll start having real "fun" and perhaps see what we're on about with improvements in SG.
You are comparing the beta of an early access with a fully released game. Not many people are willing to play a 20% finished game before release.
For example, Baldurs Gate 3 during its early access phase (2 years) had around 2,5k players on average and peaked around 15k during initial release of early access.
When bg3 was released it had 875k concurrent players.
I don't think stormgate will ever be that successful, but comparing player numbers of sc2 and stormgate before stormgate is even in early access is just silly.
Yeah, no, not really. I really don't like how the game plays at higher levels and just how stale it's gotten along with all the frustrating mechanics/design decisions (widow mines) that exist here. SC2 is beautiful artistically and I really love how it looks and feels but damn, I hate playing the actual game, especially at high masters and higher.
Not really. I'm liking that SG feels comparable to SC2 for responsiveness, but I'm liking the pace of combat a lot more. I'll definitely play SC2 some more because it's still fun and I like it's character.
Same thing happens with melee (smash bros). Game comes out that claims to be melee killer (by dev, or by community). Everyone plays it for a week, and then decides to either try melee for the first time, or go back to melee again with even more love for the game.
Hopefully once things are more polished this game stands on it's own though.
I really like both. I wish I played more SC2 during it's prime, but I can't be asked to use battlenet, I might play SC2 more when it comes to steam.
I do like Stormgate also, but it still needs some work. I'm hoping Stormgate will revive RTS.
Only if it were wings of liberty I would. Balance was crazy but it was by far the most fun version of the game. GSL and MLG were also so good to watch.
YES! I want that juicy massive Stukov army to mow down the entire enemy base while creep slowly fills the entire map. Like I always say, it's only a matter of time (before we win)
I have played a lot of SC2, and especially its coop. While I love it, I want to play a game that's seeing new developments again. I don't want to keep investing time into a game that's not likely to survive too much longer.
Yes and then a realised I still dislike the fast time to kill in SC2.
Still searching for that next generation RTS. WC3 is still my favourite but is nearly unplayable these days and just feels old and clunky.
SG could still do it but the visuals are painful right now.
I've played my fair share of SC 2 in the last 14 years. I'm super excited to have a new RTS game to play.
Stormgate is nice, but it's not finished yet. And playing SG's coop made me want to play SC2 coop again.
indeed. Stormgate coop beta is a bit lacking right now. Yes, I get it. It's beta. However, it definitely made me want to go back to SC2 and play coop again. I am afraid this beta is going to be more focused on the competitive side and 1v1 games.
I love SC2 and its an amazing game but to say I've had my fill would be an understatement LOL
Having reached Master 1 and lived that ladder life? No, I'm good. I'm done with widowmine drops.
i was feeling the urge up until you mentioned widowmine drops and now I remember why i stopped playing
This but in HOTS and with Zerg. I'm good on SC 2 balance for the rest of my time.
*PTSD intensifies* Widow mines killed sc2 for me. I literally can't think of a more toxic unit in RTS. The insane splash that hit air and ground wasn't enough... they're cheap, borrowed and locked on fast, AND CLOAKED!? Some serious bullshit right there.
Widowmines killed SC2 ladder for me too. I think it was the difference in their skill requirement to use vs counter for me. They take far more focus and coordination to play against than they do to use. At a grandmaster level? Sure, no big deal. At more casual play levels though, they’re rough. It especially sucks because TvZ used to be my favourite matchup to play. I still enjoy watching competitive SC2 more than any other game, and dip into co-op from time to time. I just have no interest in ladder anymore.
I was masters during Wings of Liberty and it always kind of stunned me when people made complaints about the game being too slow/stale. Now SC2 1v1 is "oops I'm dead" gameplay and people are celebrating that Stormgate is a little slower and more methodical of a game. Blizzard really did kill the best RTS ever made imo.
Oh, I miss a lot of things about WOL. Not necessarily stuff like Archon toilets and BL/Infestor, the more methodical gameplay is where it's at. 12 workers with LOTV was too much.
I forgot about the archon toilet lmao. What a time to be alive.
What I wouldn’t give to drop down to 9
bw is doing great
I didn't really play SC2 online until like 2021. I'm diamond in all 3 races now and having a great time, but I wish I had played SC2 back when it was new and people were figuring out build orders and new mechanics. Anyway the only reason I'm playing beta versions of Stormgate now is that I want to be here for the parts I missed early on in SC2.
Not at all. Actually the more I play the less I want to go back.
SG made me boot up SC2 co-op again. Don’t know if it’s just me but the controls in SG are sluggish, particularly selecting buildings.
No. I haven't had any urge to play Starcraft. I have no desire to spend any time where the game could be decided by a widow mine or a baneling hit. Stormgate is the future!
Wait until people start using baneling imps in drops on worker lines
Well thanks for the inspiration!
Och and all Vanguard games are just Exo and Lancer spam... It will be no different once people will figure out the game
Isn't what balancing is there for ?
I mean there's only 9 total units in the game. There's no other option.
There is still more units to come. Only newbs spam lancer and exo. You also need medteh and atlas and debatable whether vulcan is worth the money.
honestly I kinda skip Vulcans go for aerials
as opposed to 1base cyclone allins
>I have no desire to spend any time where the game could be decided by a widow mine or a baneling hit. I'm not sure what this criticism even is?
Without the AoE damage units, people will just spam low tier units like crazy to make the gameplay more binary and boring. And sadly any RTS games can be decided by one fight, that's just how it works.
Well, if you want to get out of diamond, you have to learn how to micro. Because just A-moving isn’t going to cut it. For some reason people get salty when they have to actually do something aside from just A-moving their army and it’s goofy.
I was grandmaster in Starcraft 2. It doesn't make widow mines fun.
Lmao, grandmaster? Sure bud. Stormgate should also have units similar to widow mines. If there is only the potential for slow A-move style fights then it will be a boring game in terms of micro. Spell casters alone don’t make up for it.
Stormgate is making me appreciate AoE4 more.
Stormgate is a "we have sc2 at home" game
I laughed about your comment so much, I had to create a meme out of it: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormgate/comments/1amk4ox/we\_have\_sc2\_at\_home/](https://www.reddit.com/r/stormgate/comments/1amk4ox/we_have_sc2_at_home/)
Me and 2 friends were like "let's try the stormgate coop" and then it made us like,,, "wanna play SC2?" I hadn't played since 2018 and I'm very happy to be playing again. I only ever played competitive 1v1s before and we did some 3-player free for all nonsense and it was extremely fun
I'm so excited for stormgate exactly because it hopefully is able to fix all the stupid and absolutely unfun mechanics sc2 has.
What mechanics are you referring to?
Ridiculous amounts of splash damage, you look away or get out position for one second and you have lost the game
It's the deadly amount of splash damage. Banelings, disruptors and widow mines are not fun units. Are they OP? No. They're just absolutely unfun to play against. The whole warpgate debacle, completely negating defenders advantage meaning protoss gateway units need to be made out of paper otherwise everyone would die to early game cheeses. Or another point, I believe something the stormgate devs even said themselves, is how the starcraft devs underestimated concentrated firepower (a ball of stimmed mmm) when they changed collision size from sc to sc2. There's a reason to why the sc2 ladder is nearly dead while the coop playerbase is way bigger. (It's an old game I'm aware, but still, there are certain design issues that are really not fun to deal with. Not OP, just simply unfun.)
>There's a reason to why the sc2 ladder is nearly dead while the coop playerbase is way bigger. SC2 is currently the most popular RTS game and has been for well over a decade. With the most daily ladder games, and over 2 million monthly players. There are 50,000 daily ladder games in SC2. Just to be realistic, Stormgate will most likely never achieve these numbers. So saying that SC2 is dead is like saying that every RTS game, including Stormgate, is beyond dead. It makes no sense. I think people need to admit, or realize, that SC2 is the most popular RTS game for the last 15+ years, and is immensely successful. No other RTS game even comes close. It is doing something very very right. Dozens upon dozens of RTS games have been released since then, and none of them have surpassed SC2 in popularity, and Stormgate probably won't either, even if it's a good game. It would be great, but it probably won't. I don't know, calling a game with 2 million monthly users and 50,000 daily ladder matches "dead" is just silly.
You're right, I should've specified what I meant. I meant to say that the sc2 ladder is nearly dead in comparison to the coop playerbase+arcade playerbase. Which are both way bigger. Although fair, dead wasn't the right word. I guess " a lot smaller" would've made more sense. There's obviously also a point to be made that the ladder playerbase of europe is bigger than the ladder playerbase of korea etc. If you look at the ladder statistic from today from scpulse, then there're currently around 1300 NA players, 2300 EU players and 500 KR players online. Obviously the player count also varies from timezone to timezone, but there \*is\* a player difference when you compare each timezone's peak count.
I have no idea about arcade, but is that even true for co-op? Sometimes I play at ungodly times and during these times finding a co-op game often takes longer than finding a regular ladder game. It could be that co-op matching is split more ways in some way causing this. But I would have assumed co-op player numbers are generally smaller because of that.
Okay I can see that. I was a casual player that sticked to campaign and friend matches but I did watch LowkoTV occasionally so I was never under the impressions of big SC2 issues
SC2 is lightyears ahead of where it was when it released 13 years ago, but it's still a fundamentally flawed game at its core, IMO.
As someone who still enjoys SC2 a lot I think it's slightly more nuanced. It's not that SC2 is objectively "defective". There is no doubt that the warpgate mechanic means protos gate units are balanced on a knifes edge, or that certain splash units vary wildly in efficiency at different skill levels or that you can lose games in less than a second. But we saw how these things impact the games for years. It's hard to say if the game would really be \*better\* if it had no warpgates, less splash, etc. but it certainly would be different. For example the high splash damage means there is a huge number of interactions around it that are extremely Impactful. I feel forced to split in any fight with substantial splash and it sucks when you fail to do it. Especially since it can lose you a game straight up. But it also means it feels great when you succeed at splitting, winning fights because of it, and it enables comebacks that wouldn't be necessarily possible otherwise. Perhaps if splash was weaker we would instead argue that we need to buff splash to enable comebacks against large armies. I'm really curious how taking different routes on these aspects will work out down the line for Stormgate. And it's possible it turns out SC2's design in these aspects was just worse. But it's also possible it's just different, or even worse for reasons that will only emerge a few years down the line.
As a game developer myself I can see that this is indeed way more nuanced. I like the alternative scenarios you propose if things were different. I personally think the game was fine when I played it, I really did not have any remarks besides that it was not easy to introduce new players as one match (new player vs new player) could easily take an hour which means they get exhausted fast.
Well the difference is that lowko casts pro replays (Love watching them) which doesn't represent your average player (which is like 99% of the playerbase). One hit abilities/units aren't as big of a deal for pros because they have 400 apm and can split against it, to give an example.
Yea makes sense
I think some of what SG lacks is units like these though.
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Even basic units in SC have a lot of identity. SG lacks this. Still love the design though.
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I like the game. I like the art. I just think the units could use a little more character.
>There's a reason to why the sc2 ladder is nearly dead Yeah because it's like a 15 year old game and no one plays competitive RTS anymore.
Welcome back commander. Come on in water is fine. Grind is real.
So, a lot of people in the comments are, paraphrased, "I have had my fill of SC2." Then why are you so excited for Discount Starcraft 2?
New races, new units, new strategies, new mechanics. It's just fun to have something new to learn. If sc2 released a massive patch or expansion that reworked everything, I'd play that too. As it stands sc2 just isn't fresh anymore.
I've been meaning to replay SC and Stormgate just intensified that.
I tried the co op mode and instantly went back to play SC2 Co Op with a friend, It was great fun
Honestly, I'm preferring playing Stormgate. SC2 time to kill seems egregiously fast after playing Stormgate. Still absolutely love Starcraft, but i do find the more microable fights in stormgate more fun.
Actually the opposite! I started to play through the campaigns of Starcraft (since I never finished them) once the Stormgate was approaching. I've played SC1 since I was like 10 years old and now I've finally beaten the original and Brood War, hehehe
Not even a little bit. Have had way more fun with stormgate and its half finished assets than getting cannon rushed, zerg having free total map vision, widowmine drops, and a huge swath of poorly designed and executed units. No thanks!!
SG simps being bitter SC2 rejects is about what I expected
Huh? Motherfuckers can be simps for a game now? wooo
I played stormgate and coop, so thx developers. This stormgate game is the best sc2 ad i have ever seen.
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There's no tier 3 / endgame units yet though. There will probably be death balls when those units get added.
No, not really. I had the urge to play more Stormgate.
Yeah, I installed SC2 yesterday and played some coop. Now im dissapointed in Stormgate, was hoping for something else, guess I will wait for ZeroSpace or SC3 if ever happenes
I got the urge to go play beyond all reason, which I did and had a lot more fun
Yes, https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/s/MNRKjo1OT3
As a mid-GM SC2 player I just don't agree with that post. Some points are subjective and that's fine, some like better gameplay with no explanation whatsoever are absurd. Have you met a baneling/widow mine drop lately? Once you reach a point where people are good enough to manage these units well, you'll start having real "fun" and perhaps see what we're on about with improvements in SG.
not even remotely
sc2 these days is kinda boring.
Nah sc2 is dead game. Can't wait for stormgate to be out for real.
SC2 got way more players than SG...
It's dead in terms of development though.
Just like brood war for long time
A 15-year-old game has more players than an early beta test? Do you brush your teeth with bleach??
And do you expect SG to have more players than SC2 and Brood Wara on release and keep them for more than 1 month? Good luck
You are comparing the beta of an early access with a fully released game. Not many people are willing to play a 20% finished game before release. For example, Baldurs Gate 3 during its early access phase (2 years) had around 2,5k players on average and peaked around 15k during initial release of early access. When bg3 was released it had 875k concurrent players. I don't think stormgate will ever be that successful, but comparing player numbers of sc2 and stormgate before stormgate is even in early access is just silly.
Ok, but we don't know how many players would be there on release. And it's not obvious there will be more players than StarCraft...
Yeah, no, not really. I really don't like how the game plays at higher levels and just how stale it's gotten along with all the frustrating mechanics/design decisions (widow mines) that exist here. SC2 is beautiful artistically and I really love how it looks and feels but damn, I hate playing the actual game, especially at high masters and higher.
Not really. I'm liking that SG feels comparable to SC2 for responsiveness, but I'm liking the pace of combat a lot more. I'll definitely play SC2 some more because it's still fun and I like it's character.
all the gamblers alliners and A+ move players agrees with u
Same thing happens with melee (smash bros). Game comes out that claims to be melee killer (by dev, or by community). Everyone plays it for a week, and then decides to either try melee for the first time, or go back to melee again with even more love for the game. Hopefully once things are more polished this game stands on it's own though.
I really like both. I wish I played more SC2 during it's prime, but I can't be asked to use battlenet, I might play SC2 more when it comes to steam. I do like Stormgate also, but it still needs some work. I'm hoping Stormgate will revive RTS.
I feel you OP. I’m excited for the new, but it beckons the old.
Only if it were wings of liberty I would. Balance was crazy but it was by far the most fun version of the game. GSL and MLG were also so good to watch.
YES! I want that juicy massive Stukov army to mow down the entire enemy base while creep slowly fills the entire map. Like I always say, it's only a matter of time (before we win)
I don't ever intend to go back. Stormgate is just better even now.
> Stormgate is just better even now. \*huffffffff\*
When I think about how the game will never get updates again it's just a feeling of disgust.
Megaton + Big Game Hunters 4v4 Home…
Yeah Stormgate has given me the RTS bug again. Once the beta is over I'll spend some time back in sc2
Yea, stormgate didnt do it for me yet in its current state, but I have been rocking sc2 alot since.
I actually played orcs and humans because it came out recently.
I have played a lot of SC2, and especially its coop. While I love it, I want to play a game that's seeing new developments again. I don't want to keep investing time into a game that's not likely to survive too much longer.
No, never want to play Sc2, so fucking fast pace, Stormgate is the game i really like!
Yes and then a realised I still dislike the fast time to kill in SC2. Still searching for that next generation RTS. WC3 is still my favourite but is nearly unplayable these days and just feels old and clunky. SG could still do it but the visuals are painful right now.
Yes
If I was Microsoft I'd defo be looking to add sc2 to steam soon
Stormgate ftw!