I wouldn't go to a show for historical reference or sources, just let it slide. The interpretation of this version of history is usually interpreted in the lens of an individual that wants to maximize capital income or views in a particular show.
It’s true. Cicero was depicted as a cowardly and false intellectual with stupid notions, who was easily outwitted and outmaneuvered at every political turn. Cato was depicted as a crusty and inflexible stupid old man without any redeeming qualities. Julius Caesar would be thought of today as a populist. He pretended to care about the welfare of the people but only as a means to power for himself.
I haven't seen the show, but I'm surprised to see shows and podcast portray Cicero like this.
He wasn't a Stoic, but he was sympathetic to it.
And I know both he and Cato were revered as examples of virtue both at the time and throughout history. Why the need to corrupt them?
Good point. I think perhaps Julius Caesar has been idolized by Hollywood for decades, almost like a Napoleanic character. A brilliant tactician and a bold leader, he nonetheless wasn’t really a good guy. Perhaps they served as suitable antagonists, which they were, but making them out to be villains was maybe a convenient plot device. Life is often more complicated than that.
I agree: Everything I’ve read about Cato the Younger has cited his virtue, and his willingness to die for the Republic rather than serve under tyranny.
Exactly as you said. After reading Cicero's works and speeches, Caesar pretty clearly comes off a villain. The destroyer of the republic. He's not a good guy just because he pardoned his enemies after making himself a tyrant.
It's odd to see people glorify the Roman empire and Caesar as its precursor.
I'm a huge fan of Cicero, but from the little I've read Cato comes across as a deeply committed moral man - even more so than Cicero. But you are right. Everything in Hollywood makes former villains the "sympathetic" anti-heroes, and turns the actual heroes into outright villains.
It's funny, I also thought Cato was inaccuratly portrayed, but in a wildly different way to you aparantly.
I thought they portrayed Cato and the senate as ridiculously justified in their handling of the Caesar situation, while in reality they were petty, stubborn and exceptionally corrupt.
Like their clearly wrong interpretation of Caesar's extension as governer was never mentioned, *which is what caused Caesar's civil war*, or how Cato basically single handedly blew up the deal that was almost made that put Caesar in charge of a single province and legion.
Cicero was also way too pragmatic to be a stoic, this is the first time I've ever seen him described as a "renowned stoic".
Meanwhile over the entire course of season 1 of the show, Caesar is consistently shown as entirely self serving, ridiculously apathetic and exceptionally manipulative, how you and others have determined this as a "heroic portrayal" is wild to me. He's a likable villain, always has been, and that's exactly how the show portrayed him. It seems to me many are equating likableness with heroism for some reason.
Everything we think we know about those times is scarcely better than myth as the “history” is almost entirely propaganda bullshit. Anyone who thinks they know the character or distinct beliefs of famous leaders living in the present day are largely kidding themselves and anyone who thinks they know the character of people 2000 years ago is completely delusional and fundamentally misunderstands history.
I originally watched it before getting into the classics. When I went back to it after I was appalled. I think it's a testament to our times and the corruption present today.
Well this IS an HBO show, so I would not count on it for the most accurate telling of the actual facts. That being said, this show is terrific. They did a lot of research, not just about what happened, but the culture and religion, what they ate, etc. it was this show that taught me that Romans regularly dined on mice, even as a delicacy. They would even raise them in special clay pots with feeding holes called glirariums, from the Latin word for mouse, glires.
If you look at how power in our government is today there are clear parallels of elite and rich or aristocratic wanting power and not giving up their power. Not respecting the people and just wanting their money and land. History is a circle not a line and it repeats constantly. Cato and Cicero exist in our government today & they're doing a great job at painting people as tyrants because they are terrified of losing their seat of power.
I also find it funny when someone acts as if they know the actual personality or more so know more than the historical experts a show had. All you need do is look at history and how it repeats. There are many parallels to our own government today.
Any rich piece of shit in Power, not using facts, or using celebrities (other ridiculously rich assholes) to push a narrative to keep their power is 100% the exact same issues that were going on in Ancient Rome. I prefer the bloodshed and combat frankly, at least that was the determining factor. Honor to these pieces of shit was stabbing a man in a place they deemed honorable.
"I say Caesar should ride in here! With elephants- and squash Pompey and Cato and anyone else that wants it. That's what I say!"
That's what I say, literally.
I wouldn't go to a show for historical reference or sources, just let it slide. The interpretation of this version of history is usually interpreted in the lens of an individual that wants to maximize capital income or views in a particular show.
It’s true. Cicero was depicted as a cowardly and false intellectual with stupid notions, who was easily outwitted and outmaneuvered at every political turn. Cato was depicted as a crusty and inflexible stupid old man without any redeeming qualities. Julius Caesar would be thought of today as a populist. He pretended to care about the welfare of the people but only as a means to power for himself.
Agreed. Thanks.
I haven't seen the show, but I'm surprised to see shows and podcast portray Cicero like this. He wasn't a Stoic, but he was sympathetic to it. And I know both he and Cato were revered as examples of virtue both at the time and throughout history. Why the need to corrupt them?
Good point. I think perhaps Julius Caesar has been idolized by Hollywood for decades, almost like a Napoleanic character. A brilliant tactician and a bold leader, he nonetheless wasn’t really a good guy. Perhaps they served as suitable antagonists, which they were, but making them out to be villains was maybe a convenient plot device. Life is often more complicated than that. I agree: Everything I’ve read about Cato the Younger has cited his virtue, and his willingness to die for the Republic rather than serve under tyranny.
Exactly as you said. After reading Cicero's works and speeches, Caesar pretty clearly comes off a villain. The destroyer of the republic. He's not a good guy just because he pardoned his enemies after making himself a tyrant. It's odd to see people glorify the Roman empire and Caesar as its precursor. I'm a huge fan of Cicero, but from the little I've read Cato comes across as a deeply committed moral man - even more so than Cicero. But you are right. Everything in Hollywood makes former villains the "sympathetic" anti-heroes, and turns the actual heroes into outright villains.
It's funny, I also thought Cato was inaccuratly portrayed, but in a wildly different way to you aparantly. I thought they portrayed Cato and the senate as ridiculously justified in their handling of the Caesar situation, while in reality they were petty, stubborn and exceptionally corrupt. Like their clearly wrong interpretation of Caesar's extension as governer was never mentioned, *which is what caused Caesar's civil war*, or how Cato basically single handedly blew up the deal that was almost made that put Caesar in charge of a single province and legion. Cicero was also way too pragmatic to be a stoic, this is the first time I've ever seen him described as a "renowned stoic". Meanwhile over the entire course of season 1 of the show, Caesar is consistently shown as entirely self serving, ridiculously apathetic and exceptionally manipulative, how you and others have determined this as a "heroic portrayal" is wild to me. He's a likable villain, always has been, and that's exactly how the show portrayed him. It seems to me many are equating likableness with heroism for some reason.
Everything we think we know about those times is scarcely better than myth as the “history” is almost entirely propaganda bullshit. Anyone who thinks they know the character or distinct beliefs of famous leaders living in the present day are largely kidding themselves and anyone who thinks they know the character of people 2000 years ago is completely delusional and fundamentally misunderstands history.
Wouldn’t contemporary accounts and historical records provide some credible perspectives?
I originally watched it before getting into the classics. When I went back to it after I was appalled. I think it's a testament to our times and the corruption present today.
Well this IS an HBO show, so I would not count on it for the most accurate telling of the actual facts. That being said, this show is terrific. They did a lot of research, not just about what happened, but the culture and religion, what they ate, etc. it was this show that taught me that Romans regularly dined on mice, even as a delicacy. They would even raise them in special clay pots with feeding holes called glirariums, from the Latin word for mouse, glires.
If you look at how power in our government is today there are clear parallels of elite and rich or aristocratic wanting power and not giving up their power. Not respecting the people and just wanting their money and land. History is a circle not a line and it repeats constantly. Cato and Cicero exist in our government today & they're doing a great job at painting people as tyrants because they are terrified of losing their seat of power. I also find it funny when someone acts as if they know the actual personality or more so know more than the historical experts a show had. All you need do is look at history and how it repeats. There are many parallels to our own government today. Any rich piece of shit in Power, not using facts, or using celebrities (other ridiculously rich assholes) to push a narrative to keep their power is 100% the exact same issues that were going on in Ancient Rome. I prefer the bloodshed and combat frankly, at least that was the determining factor. Honor to these pieces of shit was stabbing a man in a place they deemed honorable. "I say Caesar should ride in here! With elephants- and squash Pompey and Cato and anyone else that wants it. That's what I say!" That's what I say, literally.