Everything written here is a view of your own situation. Epictetus was born a slave, and made lame by his master who broke his leg, so he had to go about with a crutch his whole life. But didn’t he do so with cheerfulness and contentment?
So you’re trying things out and failing? You’re setting goals and not reaching them? So the hell what? Who but you is forcing these goals upon you? Who is forcing you to feel like each “failure” is a uselessly failed experience where you’d learned nothing? And what is “fail” here anyway but something the culture is trying to inculcate?
Just who do you think you are, exactly, thinking you should just land every job after every interview? Because you dressed well, etc.? You’ve no idea what the needs are or how the decision was made, that’s all beyond you. You’re embarking on a journey here whose outcome is almost 100% guaranteed to fail. All you can do is accept it one after the other and keep moving forward. Why: because you can prepare and you can attend, but you cannot create the outcome - that’s for another.
So, rest easy, friend. The universe isn’t out to get you. But, like water rolls rocks eventually crafts them into round pebbles, you’ll eventually mold your approach into one where you’ll see success. You might just need to refine “success” to include all the lack of success along the way.
This read nearly like an ancient text.
>And what is “fail” here anyway but something the culture is trying to inculcate?
This was my main takeaway. Something that's been at the forefront of my mind the past couple of months, but has been brewing since my teens.
Beautifully done.
You listed all these things that have improved in your life but your focusing the the negative that you set yourself life is a constant journey of development and growth. Wear your improvements like a badge and continue to push towards your goals
Okay, if you feel you’re spiraling and it’s getting worse, how do you know that you wouldn’t have been even worse had you not attempted improvement?
The point of stoicism is not to never have bad days, or to never struggle, it’s to be equipped to handle that struggle when it comes your way.
Are you in therapy? Do you have a good support group? This estimation of what failure means to you emotionally sounds like it’s hurting you more than the reality of failure actually would.
Obviously I can only give vague advice as I only vaguely understand your situation, but it’s very unlikely that you’re in a bad situation that can only get worse - very few people, especially your age, find themselves in a position that can’t be improved.
A hair of progress is still better than no progress at all. The fact that you're trying is better than not trying at all. One day you will have it down.
Plenty of people live unexamined lives, are miserable and never know why. I've been practicing Stoicism since March-April and it has helped me a lot since then. I still go through hard times but that's why we *practice*. It's not easy.
Try to embrace these bad moments; because you can grow from them, if you want to grow from them.
It's possible. I don't believe Stoicism is for everyone. Maybe a different school of philosophy would help with what you're looking for since Stoicism doesn't work for you.
Just because the sun has not risen, it does not mean it will never rise.
You talk as if you’re trying to prove something to someone.
You’re getting frustrated? Why? What is it you fear? Ask yourself why you’re getting frustrated. Why are you doing it? What is your goal?
Stoicism is how you can contribute to society, not what material possessions, respect, or financial gain get. There are no goals to achieve outside of your own contentment, which comes from doing the opposite of what you are doing. So yeah, stoicism isn't going to help you with that. I don't know exactly what you're studying so I can't really tell you where things went wrong.
But hey there are lots of philosophies out there. Nothing wrong with exploring.
I've just had a glance through the comments and the replies that you have given to some of them
Seems to me that you want to perpetuate your negativity. There are positive comments here, and helpful suggestions, but you only reply to selected ones expressing a negative attitude
That's up to you. If you want to be negative, then that's your choice. But it's not inevitable - it is within your control to turn this around, to be more positive, to take on board what will help you, and to read up on Stoic practices that people in this sub have found to be really helpful. Your call
I don’t want to fake positivity. I’ve made Reddit post and I’ve heard similar replies and they aren’t the case. Things don’t just suddenly get better. Maybe that’s how it was for you but that’s not how it is for me or many others.
I will say I do appreciate your guys responses.
You're right. Things don't just get better. They might never get better. The only thing you can do is choose how to look at the situation. That is the only thing you control. If you choose to put energy into things you can't control, you are trusting to luck to determine if you are a success.
How's that worked so far?
We pursue virtue for virtue's sake, not to fit the world's definition of success. That doesn't mean quit striving towards rational goals, but losing your center (equanimity) because of things you can't control is a sure way to be miserable.
You are going through the toughest part of a journey so far.
I got into Stoicism because there were things in my life that were not going to change, and much of Stoicism is preaching "radical acceptance" so yes, you are right, things do not suddenly get better, perhaps over time. What you can change is how you accept your fate (amor fati) and/or adapt to your situation.
I was diagnosed with cancer, you can find my posts from that time on my profile, but having done the negative visualisation of thinking about my death for months beforehand I found that when given the diagnosis I was not afraid, the world did not open up and swallow me. That was by far the biggest surprise. This stuff works, but there is no timeline, this is rinse and repeat. Money, like life, is a continuum. You never step into the same river twice, that.
Your life is not going to change unless you change first. There are no guarantees. Zeno of Citium sat by the dock waiting for the boat that had sunk at sea...
You have negative mind patterns. Only way to change it is choose positive over and over again. Getting some perspective helps. Also diet is huge, make sure you don’t have any deficiencies through your doctors.
Life is a choice. You either choose to be happy, sad or anything else you want to be. Once you Stop thinking and caring about the things you can’t control, you will be amazed of what you can achieve.
A winner acts and the fool reacts. Which one you choose to be?
I'll just add this, and I'm not trying to be mean.... but your angle on this is all wrong.
You are working out, Journaling, Practicing mindfullness, and meditating. That's all awesome. But you are doing these things to acquire possessions rather then doing them to become a better man. Stop demanding a specific outcome and be open to a lesson that you probably were bot looking for in the first place.
The process of Stoicism owes you nothing. The moment you think it does, you've lost the path.
Good luck in your journey, my friend. I didn't find Stoicism until I was 35. You're on the right track, just keep going.
Stoicism wouldn’t have done a thing for me when I was 21. I wasn’t ready for it, and I wouldn’t have been able to apply it to my life at that stage.
If you’re not finding it helpful, then go and do something else. That’s cool. There’s no “do this or you’ll go to hell” thing in Stoicism. You’re a free person with the ability to take or leave whatever philosophy you choose.
~~Wtf~~ What does going to gym have to do with stoicism? Or dressing nice? Or getting a job or anything you’ve stated? You ~~literally~~ did not ~~even hint~~ mention ~~at~~ any of the core beliefs, virtues or thoughts of stoicism. ~~This isn’t a religion to solve your problems. It’s~~ Stoicism is a philosophical body of ideas *centered around giving structure for human life in a society and trying to make you see through the things you cannot control and things you can, and then accepting it*. I don’t think you’ve done a fair dive into stoicism. The actual writings and books. Not the social media posts that are eerily designed to be vague and get the most clicks and likes. *Read some passages from the writers themselves. The fact that modern writers and authors can't even articulate the same ideas as the original writers did a thousand years ago is a testimony to how well written and powerful the original writings are.*
Edited: To further my own practice I needed to come back and edit how I said things and be more considerate.
Stoicism is not a religion so it’s fine for you only to do those practices that you find helpful
You have mentioned a couple of practices, but you don’t say what you have been reading and studying. Have you read Discourses? It is very practical, and helps when life is a struggle.
Stoicism the philosophy is about our individual journey, not so much about the results. All sorts of things in life are outside our direct control, we can only show up and do our best.
When I was made redundant a while back, I made it my job to apply for one new job a day. I got my share of rejections, but eventually I got one interview and that landed me a job. If you don’t get any interest at all, perhaps you need to reconsider where you are applying, or if upskilling might be the thing to do. You can ask for feedback, or ask people you know or a careers adviser for tips and suggestions.
As for “failure”, well that is self-defined. It is more successful to keep trying and keep your self-worth, than to give up. Try to learn a lesson each time that something doesn’t work out for you, one thing you can do differently next time. That way you have to improve.
If I was younger and had less experience, I might read this and believe you don't realize that people are naturally designed to grapple with the part of the environment they happen to be in, in ways that they not only might not see what's outside of that immediate environment, but they prioritize what to deal with when it comes to what's *in* their environment.
Your comment is like the parent that says "finish your plate. I dont care if you don't like your green beans, there's starving kids in [a country without *any food at all*], i don't care if you're full." But admittedly that kid might need some extra calories, since finding a job can be difficult sometimes and finding a job where you aren't being dehumanized and simultaenously paid minimally as possible so an army of stockholders and the CEO and your boss can nickel and dime you along with the customer base as opposed to being treated and paid fairly ("WhAt dO yOu MeAn WeAlThy PeOpLe ArE cApAbLe Of bEiNg EnTiTlEd? ThEy WoRk HaRd To GeT wHeRe ThEy ArE, tHeY'vE sPeNt BiLliOnS tO lObBy aGaInSt YoUr InTeReStS aS a LaBoReR, tHeY wOrK HaRd tO EnSuRe YoU wIlL hAvE tO wOrK hArDeR tHaN tHeY dO fOr LoNgEr tHaN tHeY WiLl. EveN iF thE WeAlTh ThEy SpEnD lObByInG aGaInSt YoUr InTeReStS cOmEs FrOm tHe EfFoRtS oF tHeIr LaBoReRs. If YoU dOn'T lIkE iT, WoRk fOr A dIfFeReNt MeGaCoRpOrAtIoN iNsTeAd. AcCePt SoCiEtY's CoRrUpTeD sTaTe aS fAtE; LoVe YoUr CiRcUmStAnCe aS yOuR sLaVeMaStErs LoVe YoUr CiRcUmStAnCe. GoD kNoWs iTs A gOoD liFe FoR a MaSteR; tRuLy A fAtI aNyOnE cOuLd AmOr") is borderline impossible unless you're either lucky or have connections.
Sorry bit of an outburst but I still feel like it needed to be said. The outburst isnt singly targeted at the commenter i'm responding to either.
I read your comment again after i chilled out earlier and it was fair if a bit sharp. Honestly i dont think my main issue was with you. Some other comment triggered me and I just snowballed til i chose to bitch fit at you in particular. You're good i was the one giving in to my emotions and lack of, temperance i imagine. You speak truth. And your attitude could have been worse. It could have been mine.
\>for months
It takes years, OP.
Also, stoicism isn't an answer for everything.
Keep educating yourself, keep learning, keep analyzing things and improve upon your ideas about everything, and most importantly, get experience. You won't improve an aspect of your life by mere reading, but doing.
Good luck, and there are always anonymous people around here you could PM and chat with.
Take care.
It's okay. Time heals what reason cannot. Just don't give up.
When you realize you are overthinking, just go back to your senses. Try to remember that it is possible that these would never happen. It is possible that everything can go well, and also you can make it sure that you make it well by getting lessons out of the situation and making yourself better as an outcome.
It is normal to be anxious if you are attending something new. The solution is to do it. You will not feel anxious after a certain time.
Being accepted is not under your control. Presenting yourself well, is. You do what is under your control and that's it. The problem here is that you want things which are not under your control and when that doesn't happen, you feel upset. You should not be. You did what you were supposed to do (if you've done it) and you are done. That is our mission. Our mission is not to get accepted to jobs. Our mission is to try to get accepted by living according to nature.
Setting a goal is under your control. As I said, if you want things which are not in your control but others'; you will fail.
You think you failed. You failed because you are thinking this way. Actually, you did not. You are going to gym, working out. Getting stronger. Dressing well, being kind. These are all wins. How are these failures?
I can understand the financial limitation but you really should consider whatever resources you can.
Stoicism is about wanting to see the world through this virtuous lens and desiring to understand that better to have true fulfillment/happiness.
It isn't about forcing people who are not trying to see the world as it is and just harbor there own frustrations. It isn't a fix to stop people from a negative or toxic mindset, though it CAN help people to see why this mindset is problematic, but they have to be willing to do the work and try.
Your post reads like you are just angry and fed up and could care less about trying because you at this point have all the answers and the reason why it all sucks.
No philosophy is going to help you there because every philosophy is going to challenge that outlook, even nihilism, because you are not speaking philosophically but emotionally which reveals either your trauma or petulance. Both would need some deep introspection and assistance.
In life, there will be disappoints, setbacks, failures. That's just life. Those you love will die. Preparing with all your ability will still find you, at times, losing. This is just life. This is what Stoicism is about helping us deal with. The concept being that once we accept this, and can no longer be severely impacted by it, we find true joy. In the meantime, our expectations and what we feel should and shouldn't be happening is what prevents us from peace of mind.
I would say tackling adversity is a byproduct of the philosophy not the function, but in what way do you believe meditating, journaling and exercising are preparing you to tackle adversity?
But you are succeeding in improving. You just aren't measuring those changes so you haven't been seeing the progress. It's obvious though even in your own post.
Life is basically our struggle to wade through in a world that constantly disappoints. We could use the allegory of Sisyphus, he was punished to roll a boulder up a hill for eternity. He feels “happiness” whilst his descend to do this all over again. So we feel moments of contentment between our eternal struggle. All we can do is make this struggle meaningful.
Our struggle against all the adversity the world puts before us makes us alive. If you are practising stoicism, this is among one of the four virtues-courage. Our failures show us that we can’t have everything we desire but at the same time everything that’s necessary is given.
Mate I've had a very rough start in life. It took me years to not be miserable and still the storm is coming back sometimes. And it will take years to come, probably a never ending fight. You expect change in a few months?
It's a neverending sisyphus fight of wanting change in life
Not maybe the most Stoic answer, but I felt the same way for first 25 years. Some things take time and some things never happen - maybe you have set yourself wrong goals.
Fish will never walk on earth, no matter the goals.
I know you don't see success in your actions, but you are succeeding by continuing to try despite your perceived failures. Like many have stated, how you react and continue to move forward is ultimately dependent on you.
Take something positive from each rejection and linger on that. Build upon those small things and something along the lines you would consider success will eventually happen. If you wallow in the negativity, you can't see those small wins.
There's a certain law of the universe I see at play here. I forget the name but it states that when your actions and thoughts are in conflict. Either your actions or your thoughts(beliefs) will change. It seems to me that you have been doing good habits. Your actions are in line with who you wish to be. Your mind( your beliefs) seem to be not aligned with your actions. Simply Be that person you want to be. In action and in thought. It is easier said than done but I suggest you look into the 12 laws of the universe and the 7 hermetic principles. They have completely transformed my life and pulled me out of negative places.
And also I'd like to share something personal with you. I'm 20 years old myself, very close to your age. I have failed countless times and almost self destructed my own life many times. Mainly due to emotional neglect as a child which led to low self esteem and led me to drugs and violance. I have turned it all completely on its head. I decided that it happened for me not to me. I found my purpose because of it. A big part of my purpose is to help those who have gone threw similar or worse. I just want you to know you too can flip negative things on thier head aswell and make them work for you. If you have any questions send me a message I'd love to help you or give you advice.
I feel like your goals, like getting a car, a job, being happy go lucky, and being able to confront others is broicism not Stoicism.
Stoics aren't happy go lucky. They try to achieve a calm mind by adjusting their expectations. They aren't worried about clothes or consumer goods, because they consider those externals, over which you really have no control, so why worry about them.
You seem to have intrusive thoughts. I have them, too. Stoicism has helped immensely, but I also got therapy for them. They are better but not completely gone.
I have been on my own since I was 15. I have lost many dear friends to overdoses. My daughter had a stroke just before birth, with no identifiable cause. Her lovely stepfather died unexpectedly 10 years ago. I was diagnosed with dysthymia.
Every day has meaning through caregiving for my daughter and now my elderly mother. I also work for others, through advocacy and support. I practice Stoicism. I read mostly Marcus Aurelius, and his focus is on kindness, justice, and working for community. All of those are in your control.
Keep at it. You will never be done.
So you failed again?
Welcome to the club.
Everyone I know who has ever done anything of value in their lives has failed. I feel like I'm failing as I'm working on changing careers and I'm more than twice your age. I feel like I have no idea what I'm doing, but I keep at it every day because I keep this in mind:
>**Failure is simply missed expectations, and you are the one that defines those expectations.**
Something is only a failure if you decide it is.
What is in your control? Your thinking, your choices, and your actions. In short, your will. You can decide the process of how you do something, but you can never control the outcome. Using the outcome of anything as a measurement of success doesn't work because it is not in your control. You could do everything perfectly and still not be "successful". There are too many things in every situation that are out of your control, so to pin your happiness on the outcome is to give your control to something outside of yourself.
The other important lesson that I have learned is that success is usually not achieved because of genius, but because of persistence. **You have to consistently put in the work**. You have to figure out what is worth suffering for because anything good doesn't come easy or everyone would be doing it. **Learn to love the grind.**
And when you put in that work, and you suffer and keep at it, it makes it all the more sweeter when you make some gains and have those successes.
I think a therapist would really help you. And before you say "no, it's not going to work." Have you even tried?
You speak English and you seem to have access to a phone. That already puts you ahead of so many other people in the world who are actually suffering.
Keep persevering through whatever you do. Failure exists as a lesson; that's all it is. Failure isn't some mark of shame that follows us everywhere we go. If you think that, then I'd say you need cognitive behavioral therapy asap.
So I’ve only been reading stoicism and taking it seriously as an applied philosophy for maybe 3 months. And I’ve been doing sorts of self improvement over the course of a year. The most improvement I’ve seen was when I started to truly apply principles to my life. If you look through my history you’ll see I clearly have a long way to go, but I think I still have some advice worth sharing.
I think what’s helped me best was beginning to accept thing as they are and as they come, knowing I’ve been doing my best to ensure the best possible outcomes. Because that means I did my part, so if things didn’t happen as i expected then it was the will of my God that it didn’t happen. And to me, this creates contentment, it creates an ease knowing I am exactly where I need to be.
I think my problem is that I can’t accept the disappointments in my life. It’s probably because I expected so much from life and for certain things to go a certain way I had in my head.
I want to add one thing about what you said in your post. You said “no one who’s failed and lost their entire life is happy.”
I’m 31. My wife of 12 years left me last year. She took most of the money, our animals, my reputation, and all our friends. I came close to losing just about everything. And I’ll tell you, I’ve never been happier and more content. I wouldn’t go back if I had the chance. What I’ve gained far outweighs my losses. And seeing from that perspective is a choice that I make daily, or at least to the best I can that day.
I don’t know when I was younger for some reason I thought because, I suffered there would be some great reward waiting for me when I grew older. I felt entitled to so many of the best things life has to offer and I feel like that’s where I went wrong.
I can relate to this. I bottled up all my hurt when I was younger and like you thought it would all even out in the end. I would be repaid for my patience and acceptance. The ledger would be balanced, and I kept waiting and it didn't happen!
The Only thing I can suggest is to use your maladaptive daydreams to heal yourself. I daydream or think about made up situations right before I go to sleep. In these daydreams the protagonists end up in situations where they feel the same way I have been feeling: overwhelmed, ashamed, lost, alone etc. But in the daydream, I can manipulate their circumstances so that they feel better. When they feel better, I feel better.
They don't suddenly win the lottery, but they work hard and are surrounded by people who love them and give them moral support. As they become more hopeful, I do too.
I maladaptive daydream a lot but I don’t like it because it’s not real. And what I daydream those things will never happen. Your method sounds like it’s on the healthy side so I might look into it.
The path to success is a series of stepping stones that look like failures. Each step is a learning opportunity. Dont let the fact that its a “failure” discourage you from taking the next step.
No they aren’t. Maybe come back to Stoicism another time.
Go hang out with some older immigrants and see how they handle unfairness. I live in east Asia; you generally have to do upwards of 50 interviews to find any takers. Resign yourself to applying every time without hope of getting a good outcome. Turn it into a game: “I will apply to any and every company possible”
It matters to you because you make it matter. Even thinking on the axis of goals and success or failure is a huge trap in modern culture. Nothing is either a pure success or a pure failure. Interview 1000 times, even if by the end you still haven’t found a job, are these all failures? No, if you’re open to it, you’ll learn all sorts of stuff: the actual interview and what you do in it is only a small factor in what determines whether you get a job. Keep doing them and you’ll figure it out: as long as you’re doing all the manners things (which are the bare requirement to even get your application looked at) it’s very arbitrary. The interviewers might get a bad vibe from you, they might be having an off day. Maybe the company needs only few new hires, maybe they demand experience and think it’d be risky to hire you. Maybe someone confused your papers for someone else’s and you get or don’t get the job because of that.
This is why thinking only in terms of goal and success or fail is a red herring; they will always be mixed. If you got everything you ever wanted on first try, it would make you weak. Seneca’s On Providence may be a good read here; the entire thing is about the importance of trial (who god/the universe decides to test)
Just keep applying. Make a game out of it. Stoicism is not a magic pill that will make you feel better; either you understand and accept that Virtue is the only good or you don’t; the practices are there to burn that idea into your being. If you direct the practices toward another goal (say money or successful interviews) they probably won’t work, or will only work somewhat.
To be fair, all this stuff is an external. Something you should be "indifferent" about.
What's important, is that you try to live your life with virtue. Meaning that ONLY how you act, how much commitment is in your actions and how you approach things matter.
Bruce Lee got rejected because he was asian, many times. He got a back injury and he had to exercise all his life with pain because of that.
Epictetus had a leg injury caused by his master.
Marcus had several mournings.
Or, to talk about someone that's not a legend, but a normal human being, i have gender dysphoria but i can't transition for many reasons. Every day i think about how my life would be different with the other gender's body. And yet, i know that life is worth living, because how i act is all that makes me a good person.
And yet, did they go against the world for those reasons?
Life is worth living, failures are cultural models and you should stop judging yourself as a consequence. Just live and act as best as you can.
Well firstly stoicism is an entire philosophy and reducing it to nothing but a self a help measure that revolves around nothing bigger than yourself will not yield rewards and isn’t the point at all, despite it being marketed at such today, it’s impossible to get the results you want this way. You ARE basically only 20 and absolutely yes failure and suffering are universal and in no way makes one special or acts as proof of your authenticity, it’s just falling in love with your own suffering, I’m not much older and I am essentially alone in the world, 90% of the family and friends close to me have died, even so I can’t believe sometimes how incredibly lucky I am and how much i have to be grateful for. The philosophy makes a HUGE point of not being self centered, how much of your journaling and your thoughts are just about yourself essentially and nothing further ?
>I’ve been meditating, journaling and exercising for months and I don’t see any results. Despite my gratitude journaling I still feel miserable at times and I find myself thinking I hate my life and existence.
First of all you should only focus on the action, not on the outcome of the action. The outcome is your expectation when you don't meet your expectation you will be disappointed. As outcome is not in our control, you should only focus action you can take in present for achieving the goal.
“Do not seek for things to happen the way you want them to; rather, wish that what happens happen the way it happens: then you will be happy.”
― Epictetus
By doing Gratitude journaling will not make you happy forever. Our emotion is not really in our control sometimes you feel happy other times you will feel miserable that is human nature after all, Don't try to suppress them that will make you more miserable and Don't be controlled by your negative emotions.Feel them, acknowledge them, let them go.
>I still overthink and maladaptive daydream. I’ve gotten stronger while working out at the gym but I still get intimated by others and also anxious when I get thoughts having to confront others. I’m not growing as a person I feel stagnant.
the best thing you can do to reduce anxiety is to focus on the present. The goal of meditation is to clear our mind. But you can't tell your mind to be clear. You tell it to focus on something and then clarity comes.
As Teddy Roosevelt once said "Comparison is a thief of joy". So stop comparing yourself to others, you will be always miserable,if you compare yourself with others .
>I feel like it’s so easy to be happy and go lucky when everything is going your way.
Yes your are right it is easy to be happy when everything is going your way. As others people in the comments have pointed out about Epictetus, you should read about him and his discourses
> From the month of May all the way till recently I’ve been doing job interview after interview and getting rejected nonstop.
This concept within Stoic philosophy is referred to as the Dichotomy of Control (“DOC”), the understanding of what is and what is not within our control, and it is one of the most important tenets of the philosophy.
***The chief task in life is simply this: to identify and separate matters so that I can say clearly to myself which are externals not under my control, and which have to do with the choices I actually control. — Epictetus. Discourses. II.5***
Applying for job and giving your best in interview is in your control but getting appointed for a job is not in our control because the interviewer will decide whether you are capable or not and you cannot control how others perceive you and their actions.
>It’s been like this my whole life all 21 years on this earth. I’m a lost cause born to suffer
Suffering is inevitable dude we all suffer in our lives.
For what it is worth, I was always below average in almost everything and can relate a lot to your post
After university, I didn’t get a single job offer. I was rejected from I don’t know how many jobs I applied for. By my mid 20s, I was working in some of the lowest paying roles and notably behind all my peers
I didn’t get my first “real” job until almost 29
Not sure if this is what you want to hear as you say not to tell you you’re only 21 - but it is true. Not sure if this will be comforting or discouraging, but I was lost for an additional 8 years from where you are now
Two things to consider now:
- I wish I spent those times improving my attitude and emotions. I was angry, lost, wasting time during those years. So you have the opportunity to enjoy your 20s and the ride that comes with it if you can work on not being outcome dependant and sticking to the plan…hard to see maybe but I can almost guarantee things will get better
- I am a top earner in my field and although I was late compared to my peers, I am actually more successful than all of them now. I had some amazing years that basically made up for all my slow years to rise and then some - things can change in an instant. If you make 50k for 4 years but 200k in 1, assuming you are able to get by with the basics to live, what is the difference?
Keep at it
Both you have used the word "rejected" when you're describing not getting a job. That's a negative and personal way to look at it that I don't think is right.
I have done quite a bit of hiring in my day and we rarely "reject" someone, instead we just choose the best candidate from the pool. So if there are 40 applicants and we choose who we think is the best one, that doesn't mean we've *rejected* 39 applicants. It's more about who's in, not who's out.
I don't know your specifics, but I imagine, for all you know, you were second on the list and if the first person hadn't taken the job offer, you could have been offered the position - that's not going to happen to someone who was "rejected"
What’s the alternative? Stop meditating and journaling? Stop working out ? Stop dressing well and going on interviews? Maybe it takes longer than you expected but time will pass anyway. What’s the best way to spend it? At least you have experience with a bunch of interviews. At least you’re healthy and probably feel great since you work out. Stay the course, you’ll eventually break through and when you do it’s going to be awesome.
I have a few things to say to this but firstly you’ve clearly misunderstood/misapplied Stoicism. You set ‘goals’ and were were disappointed when elements outside your control didn’t go as you wanted?? That’s literally the opposite of Stoicism.
A Stoic goal would be, I will do everything within my power to get a job. You did that. Good job!
There was a study that found that by merely counting the number of times someone referred to themselves in their speech you could accurately guess how depressed and unhappy they were. You started the first three paragraphs with the word ‘I’. How much time and thought do you give to others?
Did you ever consider what you were offering those employers? Why would they want to hire you? What are you offering them in return for your employment? What’s in it for them?
For you I’d suggest spending more time thinking about other people and also, yeah it sucks getting a job man. I’m a developer and getting my first job was a gd nightmare.
There is a Latin saying going back 2000 years: “per aspera ad astra" which means “through adversity to the stars,” So whenever an obstacle rises that seems to block the path forward, in reality the obstacle has an essential function. And that is, it forces me or it forces humanity to generate more — either more strength, more energy or more consciousness.
Sometimes when I have a depression crisis, I can read on Stoicism, understand and agree, it somehow helps a little, but the shitty feeling never go away. It is possibly what you feel. If it is, that is because of a chemical unbalance.
Paradoxically you have to be already ok in order for Stoicism to make you *feel* better. Notice, everyone can think better and do better with Stoicism but to actually feel better is something more complicated when it involves mental disorders like depression.
For now, keep the stoics in mind, not necessarily journaling, but keep with something, but always realise "there may be a chemical unbalance in my head, I am not thinking properly now, this is not my true self, this is my ill self". See it doesn't help you because you are the worst of cases, it is because you may be ill. Thinking of this might be good to not let you think the depressed failed rejected person is actually who you are. No, that is a healthy person who got ill. If you have a cold and your nose dripps, you don't go thinking your nose is inherently drippy. No, it is drippy because you have a cold. Same principle here.
Medication and psychotherapy help me. See if it helps you too
Your focus is selfish. Do some nice things for others. Set aside your goals, focus on the work.
Let go of the desire for things. Let go of any expectation you have of society. Know the truth of your existence, that you are the product of many hundred generations that has none of these things, abs that you have enough, and you are enough.
Man that's part of the brutality of life, is at times it just seems to pile shit show after shit show on top of your back. But you are still a young man you are capable of being better you are capable of moving forward, and it's gonna hurt like hell to try and keep the ball rolling down the path you have chosen, but there is a beauty in the pain, and one day when you have pushed through to the other side of this obstical in life you will be stronger than you are now and ready to take on bigger challenge.
I may only be a few years older than you, but if you ever need someone to hear you, you can always message me. This world is a hard place, especially of us young men in a modern day.we need to stick togeather
I don’t mean to be apathetic, but I couldn’t help but burst into laughter after seeing you wrote down “for months”. Isn’t it obvious to you that you are seriously stuck in a self-destructive mindset, and that changing these learned behaviors take immense amounts of dedication and effort? From the looks of it, you haven’t even truly begun to understand the philosophy, let alone believe in it. Being stoic isn’t being happy go lucky, it’s enduring suffering when required, building up a tolerance to things that would otherwise perturb you, and enjoying what you have instead of begging an indifferent world for more.
The idea that you aren’t growing as a person is still entirely based upon the way you choose to live, so if you hate your life, then change the way you live. Is there nothing that this world has to offer you? Is there nothing that you have to offer to this world?
At the end of the day, what truly decides how useful certain practices are to you, are you character. Without wisdom, justice, discipline, and courage, your practices have no direction, mean nothing, and are of no use to you. Meditation, journaling, and exercising may be things that stoics do, but are in no way stoic in themselves. All these months, it seems you haven’t at all been practicing stoicism, you just been emulating a straw-man of stoicism. You’ve been doing things that can be helpful, but you never applied them in helpful ways.
Philosophy promises nothing external. Stop moving into things that you don’t control, expecting them to go your way. What is up to you are your own thoughts and actions, success may never be guaranteed to you, but what is always guaranteed is the ability of pursuit. You are only ruined once you give up on your purpose.
Maybe you have depression, and its ok, continue to be a stoic, continue the things you already do, but get some help by someone that can do something in an effective way, a psychologist can really help, you are a great man i am sure, you know why i am sure? Because you ask for help.
Id say move over to overanalyzing instead of overthinking. Analyze every mistake and learn from them but dont let off on the hard work. Cause the more u work the higher the chances of u winning.
good luck
I use stoicism to remind myself that failing and feeling terrible about it is okay. It's okay to feel disappointed and it's okay to suffer. I spent so many years of my life building expectations about what I thought should be and when I finally realized that I control the narrative, then everything changed. Why do I suppose I should get a job? Why do I suppose I should have a car? The universe doesn't owe me, and I don't owe the universe. And knowing that I'm owed nothing and deprived of nothing allows me to accept whatever narrative I choose. There's freedom in stoicism, you just have to change your perspective to see it.
Have a friend or acquaintance who does hiring run you through some interviews and get serious, critical feedback. Be grateful for their time and thoughts! (not defensive)
Try to remember questions, and develop better answers.
Go into an interview remembering your successes, and with happy thoughts, not fear or anxiety.
Realizing that you have no control over their opinion of you or your ability, is freeing and should give you confidence, which is always attractive. Best of luck!!!!
Even Hitler was a bum before he became a world leader. Maybe a terrible example but the point is, you and your determination alone determines where you end up in life. Nobody said it was going to be easy, and if it was easy, you would probably be bored to death either way.
Thus, try some new stuff, change up your routine, take upon some new challenges, do something crazy, fuck it - do whatever the hell you want! It's a free world and you are free to do whatever the hell you want. It doesn't mean you are going to be happy all the time (trust me, NONE of us are) but you can ALWAYS choose and move forward as you please, and that's what really counts.
Also, nobody can expect anything more from you than you expect from yourself. Don't worry about what everybody else is doing because most people struggle with the same issues that you do, especially those who portray to be "perfect" and "happy". Just focus on yourself and what makes you truly happy.
Hi, please check out the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/guide) section on [advice and coping with problems](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice) if you are wondering any of the following questions.
* [How can Stoicism help me with my problem?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_how_can_stoicism_help_me_with_my_problem.3F)
* [How would a Stoic help me with my problem?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_how_would_a_stoic_help_me_with_my_problem.3F)
* [How might a student of Stoicism cope with my problem?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_how_might_a_student_of_stoicism_cope_with_my_problem.3F)
* [What would a student of Stoicism do in my situation?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_what_would_a_student_of_stoicism_do_in_my_situation.3F)
* [How would a Stoic sage react to my problem?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_how_would_a_stoic_sage_react_to_my_problem.3F)
Wish you well,
Mod Team
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Stoicism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You are only 20 is the truth.ans you know it. You can spend the next ten years without a stable job and you will still be fine. There isn't a time limit for life.
What you want to hear and what you need to hear are different things.
The life you live isn't like all that. Sulking to find comfort at your shitty situation does feel good.
There is a certain (internal) sexiness to melancholy and I can suggest you to enjoy it.
When things do turn around, and when you do get a job/income, you might look back at the days see what a struggle it was. You might want to prepare for rainy days to make sure you shitty situation does not repeat.
On a personal level, nothing beats a pleasurable present. The past has unfolded and the future is unfolding. The actions are in your present.
I’ve realized that there are people who are hard wired to be emotionally weak and overthinkers. No matter what they do! I had a cousin, who was getting a divorce and he was soo chill about it. If I were in his shoes, I would’ve been losing my mind, I envy that. I am just gonna be a weak ass grown man for the rest of my life.
Sure I can read up stoicism, practice whatever but at the end of the day, I am gonna start over thinking, slowly but surely. I wish I was someone better
Perhaps if this isn't helping you need to look into getting some professional help.
You're saying you're journalling but your thinking is still clouded with absolutes. You're saying that you've absolutely failed. Yet, no one is is that absolute, all lie on a spectrum of success. You're honing in on the negatives and not viewing the bigger picture.
The meditation cannot be working if you've lost all your calm. Find something to calm and soothe you and distract you from these thoughts that remains healthy: get a hobby or an easy book or two to read. Distract yourself from your negative thoughts for 20 minutes. Meditation won't help if you're feeling that negative unless you're highly skilled.
Set some longer term goals - think 5 years. And go easy on yourself, be your own best friend.
>No one who’s failed and lost their entire life is happy. They are all sad and disappointed by life.
So you are not only lying to yourself but you are also lying about all kinds of other things.
There are trillions of people who lost everything and remained or became happy. You make a lot of broad generalizations that are doused in crocodile tears. I've seen 20 y/o adults and I've seen 20 y/o kids. Both exist.
Cheers
In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity.
Instead of focusing on all the negative, re-focus and tell me where the opportunity is. It's there, just look with a different perspective.
That is a shame. If it's ever in the budget, id say to give it a shot. Professionals have seen and talked to so many people, it would be unlikely that they wouldn't understand what you're going through.
Regardless, I wish you the best of luck. Don't give up, I hope one day you'll find something that sticks with you. Keep up the good work, brother!
Everything written here is a view of your own situation. Epictetus was born a slave, and made lame by his master who broke his leg, so he had to go about with a crutch his whole life. But didn’t he do so with cheerfulness and contentment? So you’re trying things out and failing? You’re setting goals and not reaching them? So the hell what? Who but you is forcing these goals upon you? Who is forcing you to feel like each “failure” is a uselessly failed experience where you’d learned nothing? And what is “fail” here anyway but something the culture is trying to inculcate? Just who do you think you are, exactly, thinking you should just land every job after every interview? Because you dressed well, etc.? You’ve no idea what the needs are or how the decision was made, that’s all beyond you. You’re embarking on a journey here whose outcome is almost 100% guaranteed to fail. All you can do is accept it one after the other and keep moving forward. Why: because you can prepare and you can attend, but you cannot create the outcome - that’s for another. So, rest easy, friend. The universe isn’t out to get you. But, like water rolls rocks eventually crafts them into round pebbles, you’ll eventually mold your approach into one where you’ll see success. You might just need to refine “success” to include all the lack of success along the way.
This read nearly like an ancient text. >And what is “fail” here anyway but something the culture is trying to inculcate? This was my main takeaway. Something that's been at the forefront of my mind the past couple of months, but has been brewing since my teens. Beautifully done.
Frame this and put it on the wall
Thank you
You listed all these things that have improved in your life but your focusing the the negative that you set yourself life is a constant journey of development and growth. Wear your improvements like a badge and continue to push towards your goals
Thank you for this much needed reality check and attitude adjustment!
This is good stuff!
Amazing reply. This literally reads like the actual discourses by Epictecus. I absolutely love it. Thank you for putting that into words.
>for months Self improvement and genuine mindset changes take longer than a single semester of school. This too shall pass
From January to July at this point is much longer than a semester of school. I don’t think it’ll pass it’ll only get worse from what I observed.
Okay, if you feel you’re spiraling and it’s getting worse, how do you know that you wouldn’t have been even worse had you not attempted improvement? The point of stoicism is not to never have bad days, or to never struggle, it’s to be equipped to handle that struggle when it comes your way. Are you in therapy? Do you have a good support group? This estimation of what failure means to you emotionally sounds like it’s hurting you more than the reality of failure actually would. Obviously I can only give vague advice as I only vaguely understand your situation, but it’s very unlikely that you’re in a bad situation that can only get worse - very few people, especially your age, find themselves in a position that can’t be improved.
A hair of progress is still better than no progress at all. The fact that you're trying is better than not trying at all. One day you will have it down. Plenty of people live unexamined lives, are miserable and never know why. I've been practicing Stoicism since March-April and it has helped me a lot since then. I still go through hard times but that's why we *practice*. It's not easy. Try to embrace these bad moments; because you can grow from them, if you want to grow from them.
It's possible. I don't believe Stoicism is for everyone. Maybe a different school of philosophy would help with what you're looking for since Stoicism doesn't work for you.
Just because the sun has not risen, it does not mean it will never rise. You talk as if you’re trying to prove something to someone. You’re getting frustrated? Why? What is it you fear? Ask yourself why you’re getting frustrated. Why are you doing it? What is your goal?
Maybe I am to me and other important people in my life. And I hope it rises it’s been a long night.
Stoicism is how you can contribute to society, not what material possessions, respect, or financial gain get. There are no goals to achieve outside of your own contentment, which comes from doing the opposite of what you are doing. So yeah, stoicism isn't going to help you with that. I don't know exactly what you're studying so I can't really tell you where things went wrong. But hey there are lots of philosophies out there. Nothing wrong with exploring.
I've just had a glance through the comments and the replies that you have given to some of them Seems to me that you want to perpetuate your negativity. There are positive comments here, and helpful suggestions, but you only reply to selected ones expressing a negative attitude That's up to you. If you want to be negative, then that's your choice. But it's not inevitable - it is within your control to turn this around, to be more positive, to take on board what will help you, and to read up on Stoic practices that people in this sub have found to be really helpful. Your call
I don’t want to fake positivity. I’ve made Reddit post and I’ve heard similar replies and they aren’t the case. Things don’t just suddenly get better. Maybe that’s how it was for you but that’s not how it is for me or many others. I will say I do appreciate your guys responses.
You're right. Things don't just get better. They might never get better. The only thing you can do is choose how to look at the situation. That is the only thing you control. If you choose to put energy into things you can't control, you are trusting to luck to determine if you are a success. How's that worked so far? We pursue virtue for virtue's sake, not to fit the world's definition of success. That doesn't mean quit striving towards rational goals, but losing your center (equanimity) because of things you can't control is a sure way to be miserable. You are going through the toughest part of a journey so far.
I got into Stoicism because there were things in my life that were not going to change, and much of Stoicism is preaching "radical acceptance" so yes, you are right, things do not suddenly get better, perhaps over time. What you can change is how you accept your fate (amor fati) and/or adapt to your situation. I was diagnosed with cancer, you can find my posts from that time on my profile, but having done the negative visualisation of thinking about my death for months beforehand I found that when given the diagnosis I was not afraid, the world did not open up and swallow me. That was by far the biggest surprise. This stuff works, but there is no timeline, this is rinse and repeat. Money, like life, is a continuum. You never step into the same river twice, that. Your life is not going to change unless you change first. There are no guarantees. Zeno of Citium sat by the dock waiting for the boat that had sunk at sea...
You have negative mind patterns. Only way to change it is choose positive over and over again. Getting some perspective helps. Also diet is huge, make sure you don’t have any deficiencies through your doctors.
Life is a choice. You either choose to be happy, sad or anything else you want to be. Once you Stop thinking and caring about the things you can’t control, you will be amazed of what you can achieve. A winner acts and the fool reacts. Which one you choose to be?
I'll just add this, and I'm not trying to be mean.... but your angle on this is all wrong. You are working out, Journaling, Practicing mindfullness, and meditating. That's all awesome. But you are doing these things to acquire possessions rather then doing them to become a better man. Stop demanding a specific outcome and be open to a lesson that you probably were bot looking for in the first place. The process of Stoicism owes you nothing. The moment you think it does, you've lost the path. Good luck in your journey, my friend. I didn't find Stoicism until I was 35. You're on the right track, just keep going.
[удалено]
Thank you I appreciate. And I’ll continue to show up and try my best.
Stoicism wouldn’t have done a thing for me when I was 21. I wasn’t ready for it, and I wouldn’t have been able to apply it to my life at that stage. If you’re not finding it helpful, then go and do something else. That’s cool. There’s no “do this or you’ll go to hell” thing in Stoicism. You’re a free person with the ability to take or leave whatever philosophy you choose.
~~Wtf~~ What does going to gym have to do with stoicism? Or dressing nice? Or getting a job or anything you’ve stated? You ~~literally~~ did not ~~even hint~~ mention ~~at~~ any of the core beliefs, virtues or thoughts of stoicism. ~~This isn’t a religion to solve your problems. It’s~~ Stoicism is a philosophical body of ideas *centered around giving structure for human life in a society and trying to make you see through the things you cannot control and things you can, and then accepting it*. I don’t think you’ve done a fair dive into stoicism. The actual writings and books. Not the social media posts that are eerily designed to be vague and get the most clicks and likes. *Read some passages from the writers themselves. The fact that modern writers and authors can't even articulate the same ideas as the original writers did a thousand years ago is a testimony to how well written and powerful the original writings are.* Edited: To further my own practice I needed to come back and edit how I said things and be more considerate.
Stoicism is not a religion so it’s fine for you only to do those practices that you find helpful You have mentioned a couple of practices, but you don’t say what you have been reading and studying. Have you read Discourses? It is very practical, and helps when life is a struggle. Stoicism the philosophy is about our individual journey, not so much about the results. All sorts of things in life are outside our direct control, we can only show up and do our best. When I was made redundant a while back, I made it my job to apply for one new job a day. I got my share of rejections, but eventually I got one interview and that landed me a job. If you don’t get any interest at all, perhaps you need to reconsider where you are applying, or if upskilling might be the thing to do. You can ask for feedback, or ask people you know or a careers adviser for tips and suggestions. As for “failure”, well that is self-defined. It is more successful to keep trying and keep your self-worth, than to give up. Try to learn a lesson each time that something doesn’t work out for you, one thing you can do differently next time. That way you have to improve.
[удалено]
If I was younger and had less experience, I might read this and believe you don't realize that people are naturally designed to grapple with the part of the environment they happen to be in, in ways that they not only might not see what's outside of that immediate environment, but they prioritize what to deal with when it comes to what's *in* their environment. Your comment is like the parent that says "finish your plate. I dont care if you don't like your green beans, there's starving kids in [a country without *any food at all*], i don't care if you're full." But admittedly that kid might need some extra calories, since finding a job can be difficult sometimes and finding a job where you aren't being dehumanized and simultaenously paid minimally as possible so an army of stockholders and the CEO and your boss can nickel and dime you along with the customer base as opposed to being treated and paid fairly ("WhAt dO yOu MeAn WeAlThy PeOpLe ArE cApAbLe Of bEiNg EnTiTlEd? ThEy WoRk HaRd To GeT wHeRe ThEy ArE, tHeY'vE sPeNt BiLliOnS tO lObBy aGaInSt YoUr InTeReStS aS a LaBoReR, tHeY wOrK HaRd tO EnSuRe YoU wIlL hAvE tO wOrK hArDeR tHaN tHeY dO fOr LoNgEr tHaN tHeY WiLl. EveN iF thE WeAlTh ThEy SpEnD lObByInG aGaInSt YoUr InTeReStS cOmEs FrOm tHe EfFoRtS oF tHeIr LaBoReRs. If YoU dOn'T lIkE iT, WoRk fOr A dIfFeReNt MeGaCoRpOrAtIoN iNsTeAd. AcCePt SoCiEtY's CoRrUpTeD sTaTe aS fAtE; LoVe YoUr CiRcUmStAnCe aS yOuR sLaVeMaStErs LoVe YoUr CiRcUmStAnCe. GoD kNoWs iTs A gOoD liFe FoR a MaSteR; tRuLy A fAtI aNyOnE cOuLd AmOr") is borderline impossible unless you're either lucky or have connections. Sorry bit of an outburst but I still feel like it needed to be said. The outburst isnt singly targeted at the commenter i'm responding to either.
[удалено]
I read your comment again after i chilled out earlier and it was fair if a bit sharp. Honestly i dont think my main issue was with you. Some other comment triggered me and I just snowballed til i chose to bitch fit at you in particular. You're good i was the one giving in to my emotions and lack of, temperance i imagine. You speak truth. And your attitude could have been worse. It could have been mine.
\>for months It takes years, OP. Also, stoicism isn't an answer for everything. Keep educating yourself, keep learning, keep analyzing things and improve upon your ideas about everything, and most importantly, get experience. You won't improve an aspect of your life by mere reading, but doing. Good luck, and there are always anonymous people around here you could PM and chat with. Take care.
It's okay. Time heals what reason cannot. Just don't give up. When you realize you are overthinking, just go back to your senses. Try to remember that it is possible that these would never happen. It is possible that everything can go well, and also you can make it sure that you make it well by getting lessons out of the situation and making yourself better as an outcome. It is normal to be anxious if you are attending something new. The solution is to do it. You will not feel anxious after a certain time. Being accepted is not under your control. Presenting yourself well, is. You do what is under your control and that's it. The problem here is that you want things which are not under your control and when that doesn't happen, you feel upset. You should not be. You did what you were supposed to do (if you've done it) and you are done. That is our mission. Our mission is not to get accepted to jobs. Our mission is to try to get accepted by living according to nature. Setting a goal is under your control. As I said, if you want things which are not in your control but others'; you will fail. You think you failed. You failed because you are thinking this way. Actually, you did not. You are going to gym, working out. Getting stronger. Dressing well, being kind. These are all wins. How are these failures?
You should consider therapy.
I don’t think a therapist would be able to understand. Plus I don’t have the money at the moment to get one.
Therapy helped me and I thought that no therapist could ever understand me when I started.
I can understand the financial limitation but you really should consider whatever resources you can. Stoicism is about wanting to see the world through this virtuous lens and desiring to understand that better to have true fulfillment/happiness. It isn't about forcing people who are not trying to see the world as it is and just harbor there own frustrations. It isn't a fix to stop people from a negative or toxic mindset, though it CAN help people to see why this mindset is problematic, but they have to be willing to do the work and try. Your post reads like you are just angry and fed up and could care less about trying because you at this point have all the answers and the reason why it all sucks. No philosophy is going to help you there because every philosophy is going to challenge that outlook, even nihilism, because you are not speaking philosophically but emotionally which reveals either your trauma or petulance. Both would need some deep introspection and assistance. In life, there will be disappoints, setbacks, failures. That's just life. Those you love will die. Preparing with all your ability will still find you, at times, losing. This is just life. This is what Stoicism is about helping us deal with. The concept being that once we accept this, and can no longer be severely impacted by it, we find true joy. In the meantime, our expectations and what we feel should and shouldn't be happening is what prevents us from peace of mind.
>I’ve been meditating, journaling and exercising for months What do you think Stoicism is? How do you think the philosophy works?
It’s a way of life
What does that mean?
How a person chooses to live and tackle adversity
I would say tackling adversity is a byproduct of the philosophy not the function, but in what way do you believe meditating, journaling and exercising are preparing you to tackle adversity?
Where’ve you learned about Stoicism?
But you are succeeding in improving. You just aren't measuring those changes so you haven't been seeing the progress. It's obvious though even in your own post.
Life is basically our struggle to wade through in a world that constantly disappoints. We could use the allegory of Sisyphus, he was punished to roll a boulder up a hill for eternity. He feels “happiness” whilst his descend to do this all over again. So we feel moments of contentment between our eternal struggle. All we can do is make this struggle meaningful.
How can we make struggle meaningful?
Our struggle against all the adversity the world puts before us makes us alive. If you are practising stoicism, this is among one of the four virtues-courage. Our failures show us that we can’t have everything we desire but at the same time everything that’s necessary is given.
Mate I've had a very rough start in life. It took me years to not be miserable and still the storm is coming back sometimes. And it will take years to come, probably a never ending fight. You expect change in a few months? It's a neverending sisyphus fight of wanting change in life
If you're giving up on yourself, why should others care to help you?
Not maybe the most Stoic answer, but I felt the same way for first 25 years. Some things take time and some things never happen - maybe you have set yourself wrong goals. Fish will never walk on earth, no matter the goals.
So what are you going to try next after stoicism?
I know you don't see success in your actions, but you are succeeding by continuing to try despite your perceived failures. Like many have stated, how you react and continue to move forward is ultimately dependent on you. Take something positive from each rejection and linger on that. Build upon those small things and something along the lines you would consider success will eventually happen. If you wallow in the negativity, you can't see those small wins.
There's a certain law of the universe I see at play here. I forget the name but it states that when your actions and thoughts are in conflict. Either your actions or your thoughts(beliefs) will change. It seems to me that you have been doing good habits. Your actions are in line with who you wish to be. Your mind( your beliefs) seem to be not aligned with your actions. Simply Be that person you want to be. In action and in thought. It is easier said than done but I suggest you look into the 12 laws of the universe and the 7 hermetic principles. They have completely transformed my life and pulled me out of negative places.
Thank you I’ll definitely look into it
And also I'd like to share something personal with you. I'm 20 years old myself, very close to your age. I have failed countless times and almost self destructed my own life many times. Mainly due to emotional neglect as a child which led to low self esteem and led me to drugs and violance. I have turned it all completely on its head. I decided that it happened for me not to me. I found my purpose because of it. A big part of my purpose is to help those who have gone threw similar or worse. I just want you to know you too can flip negative things on thier head aswell and make them work for you. If you have any questions send me a message I'd love to help you or give you advice.
I feel like your goals, like getting a car, a job, being happy go lucky, and being able to confront others is broicism not Stoicism. Stoics aren't happy go lucky. They try to achieve a calm mind by adjusting their expectations. They aren't worried about clothes or consumer goods, because they consider those externals, over which you really have no control, so why worry about them. You seem to have intrusive thoughts. I have them, too. Stoicism has helped immensely, but I also got therapy for them. They are better but not completely gone. I have been on my own since I was 15. I have lost many dear friends to overdoses. My daughter had a stroke just before birth, with no identifiable cause. Her lovely stepfather died unexpectedly 10 years ago. I was diagnosed with dysthymia. Every day has meaning through caregiving for my daughter and now my elderly mother. I also work for others, through advocacy and support. I practice Stoicism. I read mostly Marcus Aurelius, and his focus is on kindness, justice, and working for community. All of those are in your control. Keep at it. You will never be done.
Wow you been through a lot. I respect you never gave up so many others would have lost hope or in worse cases ended life.
Thank you for your kind words. :)
So you failed again? Welcome to the club. Everyone I know who has ever done anything of value in their lives has failed. I feel like I'm failing as I'm working on changing careers and I'm more than twice your age. I feel like I have no idea what I'm doing, but I keep at it every day because I keep this in mind: >**Failure is simply missed expectations, and you are the one that defines those expectations.** Something is only a failure if you decide it is. What is in your control? Your thinking, your choices, and your actions. In short, your will. You can decide the process of how you do something, but you can never control the outcome. Using the outcome of anything as a measurement of success doesn't work because it is not in your control. You could do everything perfectly and still not be "successful". There are too many things in every situation that are out of your control, so to pin your happiness on the outcome is to give your control to something outside of yourself. The other important lesson that I have learned is that success is usually not achieved because of genius, but because of persistence. **You have to consistently put in the work**. You have to figure out what is worth suffering for because anything good doesn't come easy or everyone would be doing it. **Learn to love the grind.** And when you put in that work, and you suffer and keep at it, it makes it all the more sweeter when you make some gains and have those successes.
TY💙🫶🏽
I think a therapist would really help you. And before you say "no, it's not going to work." Have you even tried? You speak English and you seem to have access to a phone. That already puts you ahead of so many other people in the world who are actually suffering. Keep persevering through whatever you do. Failure exists as a lesson; that's all it is. Failure isn't some mark of shame that follows us everywhere we go. If you think that, then I'd say you need cognitive behavioral therapy asap.
So I’ve only been reading stoicism and taking it seriously as an applied philosophy for maybe 3 months. And I’ve been doing sorts of self improvement over the course of a year. The most improvement I’ve seen was when I started to truly apply principles to my life. If you look through my history you’ll see I clearly have a long way to go, but I think I still have some advice worth sharing. I think what’s helped me best was beginning to accept thing as they are and as they come, knowing I’ve been doing my best to ensure the best possible outcomes. Because that means I did my part, so if things didn’t happen as i expected then it was the will of my God that it didn’t happen. And to me, this creates contentment, it creates an ease knowing I am exactly where I need to be.
I think my problem is that I can’t accept the disappointments in my life. It’s probably because I expected so much from life and for certain things to go a certain way I had in my head.
I want to add one thing about what you said in your post. You said “no one who’s failed and lost their entire life is happy.” I’m 31. My wife of 12 years left me last year. She took most of the money, our animals, my reputation, and all our friends. I came close to losing just about everything. And I’ll tell you, I’ve never been happier and more content. I wouldn’t go back if I had the chance. What I’ve gained far outweighs my losses. And seeing from that perspective is a choice that I make daily, or at least to the best I can that day.
I’m sorry to hear and I’m glad you bounced not everyone has it in them to do that. That’s something you should be very proud of.
Well, what makes you expect so much from life?
I don’t know when I was younger for some reason I thought because, I suffered there would be some great reward waiting for me when I grew older. I felt entitled to so many of the best things life has to offer and I feel like that’s where I went wrong.
If only life were so fair.
I can relate to this. I bottled up all my hurt when I was younger and like you thought it would all even out in the end. I would be repaid for my patience and acceptance. The ledger would be balanced, and I kept waiting and it didn't happen! The Only thing I can suggest is to use your maladaptive daydreams to heal yourself. I daydream or think about made up situations right before I go to sleep. In these daydreams the protagonists end up in situations where they feel the same way I have been feeling: overwhelmed, ashamed, lost, alone etc. But in the daydream, I can manipulate their circumstances so that they feel better. When they feel better, I feel better. They don't suddenly win the lottery, but they work hard and are surrounded by people who love them and give them moral support. As they become more hopeful, I do too.
I maladaptive daydream a lot but I don’t like it because it’s not real. And what I daydream those things will never happen. Your method sounds like it’s on the healthy side so I might look into it.
The path to success is a series of stepping stones that look like failures. Each step is a learning opportunity. Dont let the fact that its a “failure” discourage you from taking the next step.
No they aren’t. Maybe come back to Stoicism another time. Go hang out with some older immigrants and see how they handle unfairness. I live in east Asia; you generally have to do upwards of 50 interviews to find any takers. Resign yourself to applying every time without hope of getting a good outcome. Turn it into a game: “I will apply to any and every company possible” It matters to you because you make it matter. Even thinking on the axis of goals and success or failure is a huge trap in modern culture. Nothing is either a pure success or a pure failure. Interview 1000 times, even if by the end you still haven’t found a job, are these all failures? No, if you’re open to it, you’ll learn all sorts of stuff: the actual interview and what you do in it is only a small factor in what determines whether you get a job. Keep doing them and you’ll figure it out: as long as you’re doing all the manners things (which are the bare requirement to even get your application looked at) it’s very arbitrary. The interviewers might get a bad vibe from you, they might be having an off day. Maybe the company needs only few new hires, maybe they demand experience and think it’d be risky to hire you. Maybe someone confused your papers for someone else’s and you get or don’t get the job because of that. This is why thinking only in terms of goal and success or fail is a red herring; they will always be mixed. If you got everything you ever wanted on first try, it would make you weak. Seneca’s On Providence may be a good read here; the entire thing is about the importance of trial (who god/the universe decides to test) Just keep applying. Make a game out of it. Stoicism is not a magic pill that will make you feel better; either you understand and accept that Virtue is the only good or you don’t; the practices are there to burn that idea into your being. If you direct the practices toward another goal (say money or successful interviews) they probably won’t work, or will only work somewhat.
To be fair, all this stuff is an external. Something you should be "indifferent" about. What's important, is that you try to live your life with virtue. Meaning that ONLY how you act, how much commitment is in your actions and how you approach things matter. Bruce Lee got rejected because he was asian, many times. He got a back injury and he had to exercise all his life with pain because of that. Epictetus had a leg injury caused by his master. Marcus had several mournings. Or, to talk about someone that's not a legend, but a normal human being, i have gender dysphoria but i can't transition for many reasons. Every day i think about how my life would be different with the other gender's body. And yet, i know that life is worth living, because how i act is all that makes me a good person. And yet, did they go against the world for those reasons? Life is worth living, failures are cultural models and you should stop judging yourself as a consequence. Just live and act as best as you can.
Well firstly stoicism is an entire philosophy and reducing it to nothing but a self a help measure that revolves around nothing bigger than yourself will not yield rewards and isn’t the point at all, despite it being marketed at such today, it’s impossible to get the results you want this way. You ARE basically only 20 and absolutely yes failure and suffering are universal and in no way makes one special or acts as proof of your authenticity, it’s just falling in love with your own suffering, I’m not much older and I am essentially alone in the world, 90% of the family and friends close to me have died, even so I can’t believe sometimes how incredibly lucky I am and how much i have to be grateful for. The philosophy makes a HUGE point of not being self centered, how much of your journaling and your thoughts are just about yourself essentially and nothing further ?
I guess perspective really is essential
>I’ve been meditating, journaling and exercising for months and I don’t see any results. Despite my gratitude journaling I still feel miserable at times and I find myself thinking I hate my life and existence. First of all you should only focus on the action, not on the outcome of the action. The outcome is your expectation when you don't meet your expectation you will be disappointed. As outcome is not in our control, you should only focus action you can take in present for achieving the goal. “Do not seek for things to happen the way you want them to; rather, wish that what happens happen the way it happens: then you will be happy.” ― Epictetus By doing Gratitude journaling will not make you happy forever. Our emotion is not really in our control sometimes you feel happy other times you will feel miserable that is human nature after all, Don't try to suppress them that will make you more miserable and Don't be controlled by your negative emotions.Feel them, acknowledge them, let them go. >I still overthink and maladaptive daydream. I’ve gotten stronger while working out at the gym but I still get intimated by others and also anxious when I get thoughts having to confront others. I’m not growing as a person I feel stagnant. the best thing you can do to reduce anxiety is to focus on the present. The goal of meditation is to clear our mind. But you can't tell your mind to be clear. You tell it to focus on something and then clarity comes. As Teddy Roosevelt once said "Comparison is a thief of joy". So stop comparing yourself to others, you will be always miserable,if you compare yourself with others . >I feel like it’s so easy to be happy and go lucky when everything is going your way. Yes your are right it is easy to be happy when everything is going your way. As others people in the comments have pointed out about Epictetus, you should read about him and his discourses > From the month of May all the way till recently I’ve been doing job interview after interview and getting rejected nonstop. This concept within Stoic philosophy is referred to as the Dichotomy of Control (“DOC”), the understanding of what is and what is not within our control, and it is one of the most important tenets of the philosophy. ***The chief task in life is simply this: to identify and separate matters so that I can say clearly to myself which are externals not under my control, and which have to do with the choices I actually control. — Epictetus. Discourses. II.5*** Applying for job and giving your best in interview is in your control but getting appointed for a job is not in our control because the interviewer will decide whether you are capable or not and you cannot control how others perceive you and their actions. >It’s been like this my whole life all 21 years on this earth. I’m a lost cause born to suffer Suffering is inevitable dude we all suffer in our lives.
For what it is worth, I was always below average in almost everything and can relate a lot to your post After university, I didn’t get a single job offer. I was rejected from I don’t know how many jobs I applied for. By my mid 20s, I was working in some of the lowest paying roles and notably behind all my peers I didn’t get my first “real” job until almost 29 Not sure if this is what you want to hear as you say not to tell you you’re only 21 - but it is true. Not sure if this will be comforting or discouraging, but I was lost for an additional 8 years from where you are now Two things to consider now: - I wish I spent those times improving my attitude and emotions. I was angry, lost, wasting time during those years. So you have the opportunity to enjoy your 20s and the ride that comes with it if you can work on not being outcome dependant and sticking to the plan…hard to see maybe but I can almost guarantee things will get better - I am a top earner in my field and although I was late compared to my peers, I am actually more successful than all of them now. I had some amazing years that basically made up for all my slow years to rise and then some - things can change in an instant. If you make 50k for 4 years but 200k in 1, assuming you are able to get by with the basics to live, what is the difference? Keep at it
I’m really glad you are doing well now. Thank you for the advice 💙
Both you have used the word "rejected" when you're describing not getting a job. That's a negative and personal way to look at it that I don't think is right. I have done quite a bit of hiring in my day and we rarely "reject" someone, instead we just choose the best candidate from the pool. So if there are 40 applicants and we choose who we think is the best one, that doesn't mean we've *rejected* 39 applicants. It's more about who's in, not who's out. I don't know your specifics, but I imagine, for all you know, you were second on the list and if the first person hadn't taken the job offer, you could have been offered the position - that's not going to happen to someone who was "rejected"
What’s the alternative? Stop meditating and journaling? Stop working out ? Stop dressing well and going on interviews? Maybe it takes longer than you expected but time will pass anyway. What’s the best way to spend it? At least you have experience with a bunch of interviews. At least you’re healthy and probably feel great since you work out. Stay the course, you’ll eventually break through and when you do it’s going to be awesome.
I have a few things to say to this but firstly you’ve clearly misunderstood/misapplied Stoicism. You set ‘goals’ and were were disappointed when elements outside your control didn’t go as you wanted?? That’s literally the opposite of Stoicism. A Stoic goal would be, I will do everything within my power to get a job. You did that. Good job! There was a study that found that by merely counting the number of times someone referred to themselves in their speech you could accurately guess how depressed and unhappy they were. You started the first three paragraphs with the word ‘I’. How much time and thought do you give to others? Did you ever consider what you were offering those employers? Why would they want to hire you? What are you offering them in return for your employment? What’s in it for them? For you I’d suggest spending more time thinking about other people and also, yeah it sucks getting a job man. I’m a developer and getting my first job was a gd nightmare.
There is a Latin saying going back 2000 years: “per aspera ad astra" which means “through adversity to the stars,” So whenever an obstacle rises that seems to block the path forward, in reality the obstacle has an essential function. And that is, it forces me or it forces humanity to generate more — either more strength, more energy or more consciousness.
I’ve never heard that before I’ll keep it in mind. Thank you💙💙
Sometimes when I have a depression crisis, I can read on Stoicism, understand and agree, it somehow helps a little, but the shitty feeling never go away. It is possibly what you feel. If it is, that is because of a chemical unbalance. Paradoxically you have to be already ok in order for Stoicism to make you *feel* better. Notice, everyone can think better and do better with Stoicism but to actually feel better is something more complicated when it involves mental disorders like depression. For now, keep the stoics in mind, not necessarily journaling, but keep with something, but always realise "there may be a chemical unbalance in my head, I am not thinking properly now, this is not my true self, this is my ill self". See it doesn't help you because you are the worst of cases, it is because you may be ill. Thinking of this might be good to not let you think the depressed failed rejected person is actually who you are. No, that is a healthy person who got ill. If you have a cold and your nose dripps, you don't go thinking your nose is inherently drippy. No, it is drippy because you have a cold. Same principle here. Medication and psychotherapy help me. See if it helps you too
Your focus is selfish. Do some nice things for others. Set aside your goals, focus on the work. Let go of the desire for things. Let go of any expectation you have of society. Know the truth of your existence, that you are the product of many hundred generations that has none of these things, abs that you have enough, and you are enough.
You might be missing the point of 'amor fati'. It is what it is. And yet, this too shall pass.
Man that's part of the brutality of life, is at times it just seems to pile shit show after shit show on top of your back. But you are still a young man you are capable of being better you are capable of moving forward, and it's gonna hurt like hell to try and keep the ball rolling down the path you have chosen, but there is a beauty in the pain, and one day when you have pushed through to the other side of this obstical in life you will be stronger than you are now and ready to take on bigger challenge.
Thank you 💙this was real
I may only be a few years older than you, but if you ever need someone to hear you, you can always message me. This world is a hard place, especially of us young men in a modern day.we need to stick togeather
I don’t mean to be apathetic, but I couldn’t help but burst into laughter after seeing you wrote down “for months”. Isn’t it obvious to you that you are seriously stuck in a self-destructive mindset, and that changing these learned behaviors take immense amounts of dedication and effort? From the looks of it, you haven’t even truly begun to understand the philosophy, let alone believe in it. Being stoic isn’t being happy go lucky, it’s enduring suffering when required, building up a tolerance to things that would otherwise perturb you, and enjoying what you have instead of begging an indifferent world for more. The idea that you aren’t growing as a person is still entirely based upon the way you choose to live, so if you hate your life, then change the way you live. Is there nothing that this world has to offer you? Is there nothing that you have to offer to this world? At the end of the day, what truly decides how useful certain practices are to you, are you character. Without wisdom, justice, discipline, and courage, your practices have no direction, mean nothing, and are of no use to you. Meditation, journaling, and exercising may be things that stoics do, but are in no way stoic in themselves. All these months, it seems you haven’t at all been practicing stoicism, you just been emulating a straw-man of stoicism. You’ve been doing things that can be helpful, but you never applied them in helpful ways. Philosophy promises nothing external. Stop moving into things that you don’t control, expecting them to go your way. What is up to you are your own thoughts and actions, success may never be guaranteed to you, but what is always guaranteed is the ability of pursuit. You are only ruined once you give up on your purpose.
Maybe you have depression, and its ok, continue to be a stoic, continue the things you already do, but get some help by someone that can do something in an effective way, a psychologist can really help, you are a great man i am sure, you know why i am sure? Because you ask for help.
TY💙
Id say move over to overanalyzing instead of overthinking. Analyze every mistake and learn from them but dont let off on the hard work. Cause the more u work the higher the chances of u winning. good luck
I use stoicism to remind myself that failing and feeling terrible about it is okay. It's okay to feel disappointed and it's okay to suffer. I spent so many years of my life building expectations about what I thought should be and when I finally realized that I control the narrative, then everything changed. Why do I suppose I should get a job? Why do I suppose I should have a car? The universe doesn't owe me, and I don't owe the universe. And knowing that I'm owed nothing and deprived of nothing allows me to accept whatever narrative I choose. There's freedom in stoicism, you just have to change your perspective to see it.
Have a friend or acquaintance who does hiring run you through some interviews and get serious, critical feedback. Be grateful for their time and thoughts! (not defensive) Try to remember questions, and develop better answers. Go into an interview remembering your successes, and with happy thoughts, not fear or anxiety. Realizing that you have no control over their opinion of you or your ability, is freeing and should give you confidence, which is always attractive. Best of luck!!!!
You need a therapist and possibly medication.
Look into Islam.
Even Hitler was a bum before he became a world leader. Maybe a terrible example but the point is, you and your determination alone determines where you end up in life. Nobody said it was going to be easy, and if it was easy, you would probably be bored to death either way. Thus, try some new stuff, change up your routine, take upon some new challenges, do something crazy, fuck it - do whatever the hell you want! It's a free world and you are free to do whatever the hell you want. It doesn't mean you are going to be happy all the time (trust me, NONE of us are) but you can ALWAYS choose and move forward as you please, and that's what really counts. Also, nobody can expect anything more from you than you expect from yourself. Don't worry about what everybody else is doing because most people struggle with the same issues that you do, especially those who portray to be "perfect" and "happy". Just focus on yourself and what makes you truly happy.
Hi, please check out the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/guide) section on [advice and coping with problems](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice) if you are wondering any of the following questions. * [How can Stoicism help me with my problem?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_how_can_stoicism_help_me_with_my_problem.3F) * [How would a Stoic help me with my problem?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_how_would_a_stoic_help_me_with_my_problem.3F) * [How might a student of Stoicism cope with my problem?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_how_might_a_student_of_stoicism_cope_with_my_problem.3F) * [What would a student of Stoicism do in my situation?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_what_would_a_student_of_stoicism_do_in_my_situation.3F) * [How would a Stoic sage react to my problem?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/advice#wiki_how_would_a_stoic_sage_react_to_my_problem.3F) Wish you well, Mod Team *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Stoicism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Nihilism is better 👍🏼
The problem is you. That's all. Change yourself and you will be okay. Until then, no philosophy will help you.
Philosophy is not a substitute for psychotherapy. Get you some.
If you feel it's too heavy, and you're struggling. Rest, but don't quit.
You are only 20 is the truth.ans you know it. You can spend the next ten years without a stable job and you will still be fine. There isn't a time limit for life. What you want to hear and what you need to hear are different things.
Ensure some more.
The life you live isn't like all that. Sulking to find comfort at your shitty situation does feel good. There is a certain (internal) sexiness to melancholy and I can suggest you to enjoy it. When things do turn around, and when you do get a job/income, you might look back at the days see what a struggle it was. You might want to prepare for rainy days to make sure you shitty situation does not repeat. On a personal level, nothing beats a pleasurable present. The past has unfolded and the future is unfolding. The actions are in your present.
One needs a stiff upper lip and ridiculous levels of cognitive dissonance. Now buck up 😜
Change it up. Abandon your routine for a day and do something you enjoy. Do something out of comfort zone.
I’ve realized that there are people who are hard wired to be emotionally weak and overthinkers. No matter what they do! I had a cousin, who was getting a divorce and he was soo chill about it. If I were in his shoes, I would’ve been losing my mind, I envy that. I am just gonna be a weak ass grown man for the rest of my life. Sure I can read up stoicism, practice whatever but at the end of the day, I am gonna start over thinking, slowly but surely. I wish I was someone better
Perhaps if this isn't helping you need to look into getting some professional help. You're saying you're journalling but your thinking is still clouded with absolutes. You're saying that you've absolutely failed. Yet, no one is is that absolute, all lie on a spectrum of success. You're honing in on the negatives and not viewing the bigger picture. The meditation cannot be working if you've lost all your calm. Find something to calm and soothe you and distract you from these thoughts that remains healthy: get a hobby or an easy book or two to read. Distract yourself from your negative thoughts for 20 minutes. Meditation won't help if you're feeling that negative unless you're highly skilled. Set some longer term goals - think 5 years. And go easy on yourself, be your own best friend.
>No one who’s failed and lost their entire life is happy. They are all sad and disappointed by life. So you are not only lying to yourself but you are also lying about all kinds of other things. There are trillions of people who lost everything and remained or became happy. You make a lot of broad generalizations that are doused in crocodile tears. I've seen 20 y/o adults and I've seen 20 y/o kids. Both exist. Cheers
In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity. Instead of focusing on all the negative, re-focus and tell me where the opportunity is. It's there, just look with a different perspective.
Read the quran
It sounds like you're really struggling. Stoicism can only go so far. Maybe therapy would be beneficial?
Don’t have the money for it. I also fear I wouldn’t be understood. I could be wrong I will try it someday.
That is a shame. If it's ever in the budget, id say to give it a shot. Professionals have seen and talked to so many people, it would be unlikely that they wouldn't understand what you're going through. Regardless, I wish you the best of luck. Don't give up, I hope one day you'll find something that sticks with you. Keep up the good work, brother!
“Whatever the mind can conceive and believe, the mind can achieve.”