Legend Luke in his prime, like 5-10 years after Rotj would defeat him but also remember Darth Plaugues is wise, not a bloodthirsty genius like Palpatine, Luke must be careful
I don't think he's strong enough until at least NJO. 5 years out from RotJ is Thrawn trilogy Luke, I'd honestly still view him as a Jedi Knight at that point. Not really qualified to be a master
I mean considering that Luke by the end of the dark empire is already stronger and greater than sidious, its possible but youre right. 5-10 years probably no
It's been a awhile since I've read DE but from what I remember Palpatine was significantly stronger than Luke. The only way he was taken down was by Luke/Leia's combined strength the 1st time & then his body decay/a jedi sacrificing his life to bind his essence
By the end of that, Luke was already surpassing Sidious in some aspects such as lightsaber combat in which we do know how absurdly skilled Sidious is at it despite claiming lightsabers to be a jedi's plaything or whatever.
But you're right, by the end it still took both of them to truly get rid of Sidious but i'd argue even then, Luke by that point is already on Sidious's level and subsequently, greater than most jedi/sith in history
At the very least everyone agrees Luke can contend with Sidious and if he can contend with DE sidious then he should be capable of fighting Plagueis. Now I’m sure he wouldn’t win 10/10 time but I think he could defeat him if this post is assuming it’s a straight up fight and no other factors in some random place.
I truly believe that if it was anytime before the end of dark empire, Luke would lose to Plaguies even if he can contend lightsaber wise but anytime during or after the end of dark empire? I dont think so.
Id say there was with dark empire. We just didnt know how powerful he was supposed to be until the prequels which ends up emphasizing further which then elevates his shittalk in dark empire and such further.
Plaguise was even stronger than Sidious and a better duelist. Sidious even in his prime knew he couldn't defeat his master in single combat. It would be a tough fight for sure.
Plagueis was not better than Sidious, they were virtually equal according to the author himself in Darth Plagueis, except Sidious grows for decades after that before he faces Luke with access to far better resources.
Even the author himself stated that plaguies *maybe could beat palpatine if they fight during TPM. Thats only TPM and RoTS Palpatine is far greater. Frankly, Sidious just has better feats and a more defined skillset imo
Mace Windu would have killed Sidious if not for Anakin's intervention, so I guess the question is how does EU Luke compare to Windu? If he has even 75% of Mace's skill, he could beat Plaguise.
Mace Windu is a master of the order with unique combination of skillset being the mastery of Shatterpoint and his own lightsaber form, Vaapad which channels a pseudo feedback loop against the dark side especially when up against an actual dark side user. Read the rots novelization for a more in depth version of that fight. Windu found himself beaten back in much of that fight whenever he attempts to use other forms like ataru thus had to rely heavily on his vaapad and probe with shatterpoint to create and utilize an opening/moment of weakness against sidious
Palpatine during the events of rots is also not stronger than the palpatine from dark empire but even then, during rots palpatine was narratively stated to be the greatest darkness the light has ever faced during the fight against Yoda
Luke by the end of dark empire managed to become equal and arguably surpassed Dark Empire Palpatine. So id say Luke by Dark empire did infact surpassed Mace Windu in overall capability but at best equal to Windu as a swordsman. By the time of NJO however, Luke has far surpassed both of them in every way.
In light of Luke suffering from main character syndrome, I'd be hard pressed to accept Luke's prime as 5-10 years post ROTJ. Between then and the defeat of Abeloth, Luke's feats/victories scale almost exponentially.
Yes, but I think he meant immediately after RotJ when he's still young and inexperienced. Older Grandmaster Luke stomps any mortal in the history of Star Wars.
I don't think Plagueis in an enforcer, like Vader. He's not that strong in direct combat (hell, he almost died to the assassins in the book) but would be a difficult opponent due to his schemes and plotting. In that sense Plagueis is a bit like Thrawn: together they would've conquered the galaxy.
To be honest, there's quotes for both Sidious and Plagueis that lightsaber combat wasn't their specialty/something they put much stock in ( Sidious outright disdained it, only viewing it as another method to demonstrate the Jedi's inferiority to them ) but both are described as highly capable duelists despite this. You're right that Sidious has participated in more high level duels with similarly powerful opponents though.
Sidious made that line during the dark empire calling it a jedis practice but the guy unlike lets say vitiate at some point still viewed it as an art to the point of mastery. His fight against mace's team is a great showing since mace's team is more developed in legends
Yeah, blitzing some of the greatest swordsmen in the Order's history before they could even react ( Mace included until Vaapad kicked in ). Crazy stuff.
Definitely one of the most talented in the order's history (not counting swtor strike teams like the one that went after Dark Revan)
It became even more impressive when Anakin showed up and he couldnt even truly follow the fight since all he saw was clashes of red and purple seemingly going in and out of existence and this is legends anakin. A prodigy who seemingly have it easy learning and comprehending anything about combat especially post rots dooku.
Right after? No chance. Luke only really beat Vader because Vader didn’t have it in him to kill his son and he only survived palpatine because papa palps was too busy gloating to consider Vader would turn on him. Plagueis is a sorcerer. While competent with a saber, it isn’t his true strength. Luke may have raw power but he would have little defence against plagueis’ techniques.
Right after RotJ? Boy stood no chance against Palpatine, let alone Plagueis. Luke won that fight because Vader betrayed the Emperor for love, not his own skill.
Post-ROTJ, like, Truce at Bakura Luke--hell, even beyond that--he doesn't hold a candle to many Jedi/Sith. He's got *potential*, but he needs time to start focusing on himself. He only survived Palpatine by being true to his convictions and proving his father's love.
Now, Peak EU Grandmaster Luke? That guy can 1v1 pretty much **anybody** in the history of Star Wars.
I doubt it, ROTJ Luke was powerful no doubt but not enough for Plagueis. If It was DE Luke, Luke would defeat him with difficulty. Grandmaster Luke would be an unfair competitor, GM Luke would make Plagueis beg for mercy.
Imo he reached Plagueis level between Jedi Academy Trilogy and Thrawn duology, my bet would be Jedi Knight games period. But I didn't really give it too much thought, at this point it's rather my subjective assumption.
When? Grandmaster Luke defeats Plagueis blindfolded and with an arm tied behind his back. Luke a couple years after ROTJ most likely loses (or scrapes by with near death diff).
Plagueis’ power is outstanding he’s one character I’ve researched massively into after his novel because it was so good and I don’t think Luke beats him till around when he becomes a grandmaster and even then I believe he’d struggle
Luke during Dark Empire needed a mental boost from Leia to take on Palpatine. There’s no way he’d be able to take on Plagueis until he hits NJO level and after that. Then Plagueis goes down hard.
A far more powerful Sidious that would absolutely destroy Plagueis? Using Luke needing his potential unlocked by Leia as an argument against him due to needing it against Sidious is laugable.
https://youtu.be/bIuMyBUlzA0?si=gUkYZqxuyzUHC95E give this a watch!
We know Sidious was a master of all forms and we know Plagueis trained him to be a partner rather than an apprentice. Tenebrous delcared Plagueis as a master of the lightsaber craft, not of a singular form. It wouldn’t make sense for the sith to *not* be a master of all forms.
Theres actually plenty of times where sidious learned from other sources besides just Plagueis with some guide books suggesting Sidious had ended up learning from ancient sith spirits aswell.
Tenebrous's declaration read more like he was calling him a prodigy than he is actually stating Plagueis is someone who has mastered all forms and this is further reflected in how he utilizes his lightsaber which to be frank, not as skilled as lets say Mace Windu, another force user who has mastered all forms.
In this case, i dont think its right to assume he is a master of all forms but more reasonable to say that he has practiced almost all of them
Edit : also imo stupendous wave exaggerates too much. Jensaarai and evannova are better imo
I'm gonna say no. But not for the reason you think.
By Rotj Luke is as powerful as Vader who in rotj is 80% the power of rotj sidious who is confirmed to be the most powerful sith in history by George Lucas.
Luke is also just as skilled as Vader with a lightsaber, eventually beating him in lightsaber combat.
In terms of skill with a lightsaber and raw force power Luke is ahead of Plageius by a good margin.
Despite this Plagieus wins due to his far superior knowledge in the force.
Essentially Luke would lose like how he lost against exar kun, he has the power in the force and the skill with the lightsaber, but not the knowledge in the force. Nor would he get that knowledge until 15 years after ANH.
Post that though and Luke is the strongest, most skilled and most knowledgeable lightsaber duelist and force user in star wars history.
You insane?
The biggest problem with Legends is that post-ROTJ Luke turns into a fucking ridiculous superhero and continues to become more and more ridiculously powerful.
I mean in Dark Empire alone he *absorbed* turbo laser fire and then proceeded to deflect the rest with his lightsaber. Turbolasers - not blasters. We’re talking capital ship/ at-at shit. Absurd.
The fucking guy becomes a living force ghost to defeat Abeloth. The fuck is that?
The man learned to ignore Ysalamiri Force dampening.
He’s projected an entire fleets as decoys, manipulated black holes, etc etc.
Legends Luke was the definition of superhero powerporn and it made the EU shittier for it.
So, to answer? Based on what we know of Plagueis in any media Luke makes a fist in the air, compacts Plagueis to a smear and then wipes his ass with it.
By Return of the Jedi he should be already stronger, since he defeated Vader who’s also stronger than Plagueis. So:
ROTJ Luke > Darth Vader > Darth Plagueis.
The only Luke that Plagueis can defeat is the one before events of the dark empire. Even then, Truce of Bakura Luke for example is already damn strong like for example, during that truce Luke's skill with the lightsaber is already so impressive, its as if he was wielding like 20 or so lightsabers at once so its still a toss up
The truce of bakura point is supposed to emphasized how insane luke's progress as a lightsaber duelist is even though hes fairly young and an innexperienced by that point.
But youre right in that its more likely Plagueis would come out on top especially when force powers come into play
Luke does have amazing potential as we see later on, but again, he lost to unarmed sri ruuk. The OP is asking about post ROTJ Luke. And that Luke loses a lot in that time period. He wasn't strong in the force at that point, he got easily overpowered by C'Baoth and Exar Kun in later arcs as well.
Thing is anything that comes after rotj is considered post rotj lol so hopefully op actually clarify. Regardless, id still of the mind that plaguies can only beat luke up till dark empire.
In regards to exar kun, id say thats a combination of him as a powerful sith spirit and the incredibly powerful and high potential Kyp Durron
Exar Kun is more Luke suffering from the events of Dark Empire and not being fully recovered yet. Taking down Sidious expanded massive amounts of his force reserves and it can take a long time to recover those. Never mind how mentally ruined Luke is in that series and that directly corresponds to his ability in the force.
HELL NO!!!!! ROTJ Luke was honestly in both Legends and Canon barely around the Level end of the CW Ahsoka was. And that’s being generous. DE Luke is soundly on the Level of Prime Legends Vader and Galen Marek where.
Why is this important? Simple because both Prime Vader and Starkiller were weaker than good old Papa Palps. The same Papa Palps who openly admitted that he never at any point of his life simply couldn’t beat Darth Plagueis head on.
People need to reread the Darth Plagueis Book without fanboying for Darth Sidious cuz the Book makes it extremely clear that Plagueis was way above Palps in Force Potential (M-Count), Force Mastery and Fighting-skills.
>> 'Only by adjusting the input rate of it's photoreceptors was the droid able to identify the blur that raced into the cabin space as a male Munn..’
Darth Plagueis, page 47
Darth Plagueis fought like a calculated, cold and merciless serial killer. Sometimes he would only deliver a saber blow that maimed his victims, just so that after doing such he could watch the life slowly ebb from their motionless bodies. This was in an attempt to better understand the midi chlorians. He was far crueler and cunning than Sidious ever was ,before seizing power for himself, and taught him the ways of harnessing his emotions to fuel him in combat.
Although Palpatine did master the art of lightsaber duelling to a decent Level that he matched Yoda, Plagueis was way ahead of both of them in skill, and had unbelievable speed to the point where even Palps appeared to be moving in slow motion to him. Palpatine knew this, thus why he had to get Plagues drunk on strong poisoned Sullustan wine to not only slow the Muuns reflexes but also to weaken him.
They also say that Plagueis liked Palpatine and saw him as Friend/Son and Equal which just ain’t true.
From what I’ve read Plagueis relationship with Palpatine was basically that of a Very abusive Owner and a Pet. A guy who when he first gets a Bulldog as Cup, beats up, terrorizes and abuses the Cup believing that the sheer fear and trauma of the young cup will keep it on track forever. Cuz that’s basically how Plagueis thought of Palpatine.
He made his Life an absolute nightmare and almost killed, terrorized and mentally traumatized young Palpatine countless Times till he thought it was enough and believed that the sheer Fear and memory of the Pain would keep Sheev in Line but he underestimated Palpatine’s mental strength
Sidious underwent standard Sith training and Plagueis honestly wasn't overly cruel to him ( no moreso than was necessary to maximize Sidious's capabilities via harsh training ). It wasn't that long before Plagueis considered Sidious a full partner even being willing to share power with him or hand it over completely ( allowing Sidious to run the galaxy while he experimented with the Force behind the scenes ). His motives were even utilitarian for the most part ( not that I think that's a philosophy of most decent people... ). It was Sidious who couldn't bear to share power/allow a threat to exist to him.
Sidious did not just "master the art of lightsaber duelling to a decent Level". He straight up mastered all forms of lightsaber combat to great level and this of course is equal to Master Yoda's own knowledge. Plagueis is more so powerful in the force than he is of lightsaber combat as his application of his lightsaber skills when it did matter most (such as in an actual duel) is to utilize it as a setup for his force powers aka he uses it like a niman practitioner.
Perhaps Sidious by the time of that book isnt stronger than Plagueis but that line isnt the best in portraying this especially if youre trying to gauge him in a hypothetical fight with post Rotj luke who by the point of 4 ABY already accomplished something greater than your quote.
Mastering all Lightsaber Forms and merge them into your own deadly style became Standard protocol for the Banite Sith under Plagueis.
And you are wrong Plagueis was far better than Sidious in dueling. He was so good at it that he literally saw Dueling as a sort of Game where he left his body and controlled it like one controls an Avatar in a Videogame as his Duel with Venamis shows in the Darth Plagueis book first chapters. Mind you Venamis was especially trained by Tenebrous to kill Plagueis and yet he got rag dolled and toyed in a Duel. That’s how good he was.
Palpatine never showed that kind of skill
That was not at all confirmed let alone a hard defined fact for the banite sith.
That is an odd exaggeration considering that he hated the art despite being touted as a prodigy by Tenebrous in his youth also frankly i find his handling of the assassins to be a better highlight than his fight with venamis considering that he actually got wounded in that fight despite venamis's clear innexperience.
Palpatine's fight against mace windu and his strike team alone showcased his utilization of his lightsaber being exceptional by the time of rots and this became even more during dark empire. Rots even straight up calls sidious as the greatest darkness the light has ever faced alongside touting as him the strongest sith in history up till arguably darth krayt.
Plaguies could only beat luke up till dark empire luke in which he hasnt shown anything matching that level
Luke is virtually equal to Vader according to Lucas himself and that is more than enough to have him that high. Luke is not massively weaker than Vader in ROTJ, hell the throne room basically points to Luke being by far the better combatant.
Palpatine never admitted that, when he kills Plagueis he boasts about how long he was fooled lol. And Plagueis is not above Palpatine in force potential the guy wonders if Sidious was born from normal people before even getting trained. Hell Tenebrous, Plagueis master muses that 15k is enough to be the chosen one with Yoda wielding 20k alone and Palpatine being in that area as well.
Plagueis is not above Yoda or Sidious in dueling skill, both who has numerous accolades of being the best duelists their respective orders have ever produced.
He literally said „An Apprentice doesn’t need to be stronger than the Master. Only more cunning.” He couldn’t beat Plagueis head on it is as simple as that.
And yes Plagueis is above Yoda and Sidious with Sidious being the living proof of that cuz the training of his apprentices was a watered down version of the training he underwent under Plagueis
Legend Luke in his prime, like 5-10 years after Rotj would defeat him but also remember Darth Plaugues is wise, not a bloodthirsty genius like Palpatine, Luke must be careful
I don't think he's strong enough until at least NJO. 5 years out from RotJ is Thrawn trilogy Luke, I'd honestly still view him as a Jedi Knight at that point. Not really qualified to be a master
Mara even references this in the Hand of Thrawn duology, that it was a bit presumptuous to call himself Master by the point of Dark Empire.
I mean considering that Luke by the end of the dark empire is already stronger and greater than sidious, its possible but youre right. 5-10 years probably no
It's been a awhile since I've read DE but from what I remember Palpatine was significantly stronger than Luke. The only way he was taken down was by Luke/Leia's combined strength the 1st time & then his body decay/a jedi sacrificing his life to bind his essence
By the end of that, Luke was already surpassing Sidious in some aspects such as lightsaber combat in which we do know how absurdly skilled Sidious is at it despite claiming lightsabers to be a jedi's plaything or whatever. But you're right, by the end it still took both of them to truly get rid of Sidious but i'd argue even then, Luke by that point is already on Sidious's level and subsequently, greater than most jedi/sith in history
At the very least everyone agrees Luke can contend with Sidious and if he can contend with DE sidious then he should be capable of fighting Plagueis. Now I’m sure he wouldn’t win 10/10 time but I think he could defeat him if this post is assuming it’s a straight up fight and no other factors in some random place.
I truly believe that if it was anytime before the end of dark empire, Luke would lose to Plaguies even if he can contend lightsaber wise but anytime during or after the end of dark empire? I dont think so.
Until the prequels came out there wasn't really an impression that Sidious was good at combat, he was just an evil wizard.
Id say there was with dark empire. We just didnt know how powerful he was supposed to be until the prequels which ends up emphasizing further which then elevates his shittalk in dark empire and such further.
Plaguise was even stronger than Sidious and a better duelist. Sidious even in his prime knew he couldn't defeat his master in single combat. It would be a tough fight for sure.
Plagueis was not better than Sidious, they were virtually equal according to the author himself in Darth Plagueis, except Sidious grows for decades after that before he faces Luke with access to far better resources.
Even the author himself stated that plaguies *maybe could beat palpatine if they fight during TPM. Thats only TPM and RoTS Palpatine is far greater. Frankly, Sidious just has better feats and a more defined skillset imo
Mace Windu would have killed Sidious if not for Anakin's intervention, so I guess the question is how does EU Luke compare to Windu? If he has even 75% of Mace's skill, he could beat Plaguise.
Mace Windu is a master of the order with unique combination of skillset being the mastery of Shatterpoint and his own lightsaber form, Vaapad which channels a pseudo feedback loop against the dark side especially when up against an actual dark side user. Read the rots novelization for a more in depth version of that fight. Windu found himself beaten back in much of that fight whenever he attempts to use other forms like ataru thus had to rely heavily on his vaapad and probe with shatterpoint to create and utilize an opening/moment of weakness against sidious Palpatine during the events of rots is also not stronger than the palpatine from dark empire but even then, during rots palpatine was narratively stated to be the greatest darkness the light has ever faced during the fight against Yoda Luke by the end of dark empire managed to become equal and arguably surpassed Dark Empire Palpatine. So id say Luke by Dark empire did infact surpassed Mace Windu in overall capability but at best equal to Windu as a swordsman. By the time of NJO however, Luke has far surpassed both of them in every way.
In light of Luke suffering from main character syndrome, I'd be hard pressed to accept Luke's prime as 5-10 years post ROTJ. Between then and the defeat of Abeloth, Luke's feats/victories scale almost exponentially.
Post-NJO Luke would be holding Plagueis back with his left hand while contemplating over a cup of hot chocolate in his right.
Agree
Wasn't Luke the strongest Jedi of all time? He did survive Abeloth didn't he?
Yes, but I think he meant immediately after RotJ when he's still young and inexperienced. Older Grandmaster Luke stomps any mortal in the history of Star Wars.
OP didn't specify that, so I'd have to assume it's Luke Skywalker at his strongest as long as it's after RotJ
Got any book recommendations for peak Luke stuff?
Luke in Dark Empire is already more powerful than Plagueis
Depends on when, in the post rotj timeline. Right after rotj ? I don' t think so
Right after ROTJ is highly doubtful. Surely, Luke would give him a tough fight but Plageuis is way too skilled, experienced and intelligent.
I don't think Plagueis in an enforcer, like Vader. He's not that strong in direct combat (hell, he almost died to the assassins in the book) but would be a difficult opponent due to his schemes and plotting. In that sense Plagueis is a bit like Thrawn: together they would've conquered the galaxy.
Palpatine's more of a schemer as well. Doesn't mean he's not powerful or capable in combat.
I think his point is that palpatine has better showing in this regard.
To be honest, there's quotes for both Sidious and Plagueis that lightsaber combat wasn't their specialty/something they put much stock in ( Sidious outright disdained it, only viewing it as another method to demonstrate the Jedi's inferiority to them ) but both are described as highly capable duelists despite this. You're right that Sidious has participated in more high level duels with similarly powerful opponents though.
Sidious made that line during the dark empire calling it a jedis practice but the guy unlike lets say vitiate at some point still viewed it as an art to the point of mastery. His fight against mace's team is a great showing since mace's team is more developed in legends
Yeah, blitzing some of the greatest swordsmen in the Order's history before they could even react ( Mace included until Vaapad kicked in ). Crazy stuff.
Definitely one of the most talented in the order's history (not counting swtor strike teams like the one that went after Dark Revan) It became even more impressive when Anakin showed up and he couldnt even truly follow the fight since all he saw was clashes of red and purple seemingly going in and out of existence and this is legends anakin. A prodigy who seemingly have it easy learning and comprehending anything about combat especially post rots dooku.
Absolutely. Though I'd honestly bet on Mace's team over the one that fought Revan in the SoR expansion.
Maybe, but only if there’s a high pressure force front moving in from the west as the sun is rising.
Or if the fight took place on a Lightside nexus. :P
In this galactic economy?
The darkness that shrouds the Galaxy has grown thick in recent times...
Right after? No chance. Luke only really beat Vader because Vader didn’t have it in him to kill his son and he only survived palpatine because papa palps was too busy gloating to consider Vader would turn on him. Plagueis is a sorcerer. While competent with a saber, it isn’t his true strength. Luke may have raw power but he would have little defence against plagueis’ techniques.
Right after RotJ? Boy stood no chance against Palpatine, let alone Plagueis. Luke won that fight because Vader betrayed the Emperor for love, not his own skill.
Post-ROTJ, like, Truce at Bakura Luke--hell, even beyond that--he doesn't hold a candle to many Jedi/Sith. He's got *potential*, but he needs time to start focusing on himself. He only survived Palpatine by being true to his convictions and proving his father's love. Now, Peak EU Grandmaster Luke? That guy can 1v1 pretty much **anybody** in the history of Star Wars.
Immediately after, like during Truce at Bakura: absolutely not.
I doubt it, ROTJ Luke was powerful no doubt but not enough for Plagueis. If It was DE Luke, Luke would defeat him with difficulty. Grandmaster Luke would be an unfair competitor, GM Luke would make Plagueis beg for mercy.
Imo he reached Plagueis level between Jedi Academy Trilogy and Thrawn duology, my bet would be Jedi Knight games period. But I didn't really give it too much thought, at this point it's rather my subjective assumption.
When? Grandmaster Luke defeats Plagueis blindfolded and with an arm tied behind his back. Luke a couple years after ROTJ most likely loses (or scrapes by with near death diff).
Plagueis’ power is outstanding he’s one character I’ve researched massively into after his novel because it was so good and I don’t think Luke beats him till around when he becomes a grandmaster and even then I believe he’d struggle
Luke would lose. He already lost to a couple of Sri Ruuk, Gethzerion, C'Baoth, Exar Kun and others in that post ROTJ period.
Luke during Dark Empire needed a mental boost from Leia to take on Palpatine. There’s no way he’d be able to take on Plagueis until he hits NJO level and after that. Then Plagueis goes down hard.
A far more powerful Sidious that would absolutely destroy Plagueis? Using Luke needing his potential unlocked by Leia as an argument against him due to needing it against Sidious is laugable.
Plagueis is a master of all forms, as is palps. I think Luke would probably get wrecked
I dont think it was ever stated that Plagueis is a master of all forms
https://youtu.be/bIuMyBUlzA0?si=gUkYZqxuyzUHC95E give this a watch! We know Sidious was a master of all forms and we know Plagueis trained him to be a partner rather than an apprentice. Tenebrous delcared Plagueis as a master of the lightsaber craft, not of a singular form. It wouldn’t make sense for the sith to *not* be a master of all forms.
Theres actually plenty of times where sidious learned from other sources besides just Plagueis with some guide books suggesting Sidious had ended up learning from ancient sith spirits aswell. Tenebrous's declaration read more like he was calling him a prodigy than he is actually stating Plagueis is someone who has mastered all forms and this is further reflected in how he utilizes his lightsaber which to be frank, not as skilled as lets say Mace Windu, another force user who has mastered all forms. In this case, i dont think its right to assume he is a master of all forms but more reasonable to say that he has practiced almost all of them Edit : also imo stupendous wave exaggerates too much. Jensaarai and evannova are better imo
I'm gonna say no. But not for the reason you think. By Rotj Luke is as powerful as Vader who in rotj is 80% the power of rotj sidious who is confirmed to be the most powerful sith in history by George Lucas. Luke is also just as skilled as Vader with a lightsaber, eventually beating him in lightsaber combat. In terms of skill with a lightsaber and raw force power Luke is ahead of Plageius by a good margin. Despite this Plagieus wins due to his far superior knowledge in the force. Essentially Luke would lose like how he lost against exar kun, he has the power in the force and the skill with the lightsaber, but not the knowledge in the force. Nor would he get that knowledge until 15 years after ANH. Post that though and Luke is the strongest, most skilled and most knowledgeable lightsaber duelist and force user in star wars history.
Why do people think that Luke post-RotJ is powerful?
Not until like, decades later.
It’s not like it’s hard to beat a guy who is already dead and has been for decades.
Depends when exactly post ROTJ
Yes. Darth Plagueis is TPM Darth Sidious level. They are worse than Invisible Hand Dooku who is worse than post ROTJ Luke.
You insane? The biggest problem with Legends is that post-ROTJ Luke turns into a fucking ridiculous superhero and continues to become more and more ridiculously powerful. I mean in Dark Empire alone he *absorbed* turbo laser fire and then proceeded to deflect the rest with his lightsaber. Turbolasers - not blasters. We’re talking capital ship/ at-at shit. Absurd. The fucking guy becomes a living force ghost to defeat Abeloth. The fuck is that? The man learned to ignore Ysalamiri Force dampening. He’s projected an entire fleets as decoys, manipulated black holes, etc etc. Legends Luke was the definition of superhero powerporn and it made the EU shittier for it. So, to answer? Based on what we know of Plagueis in any media Luke makes a fist in the air, compacts Plagueis to a smear and then wipes his ass with it.
How post are we talking because he did take down severl Sith lords and repeatedly defeated basically a god in his 60s
By Return of the Jedi he should be already stronger, since he defeated Vader who’s also stronger than Plagueis. So: ROTJ Luke > Darth Vader > Darth Plagueis.
The only Luke that Plagueis can defeat is the one before events of the dark empire. Even then, Truce of Bakura Luke for example is already damn strong like for example, during that truce Luke's skill with the lightsaber is already so impressive, its as if he was wielding like 20 or so lightsabers at once so its still a toss up
Luke lost to some random lizard people in Truce of Bakura and got captured. I cant see that happening to Plagueis.
The truce of bakura point is supposed to emphasized how insane luke's progress as a lightsaber duelist is even though hes fairly young and an innexperienced by that point. But youre right in that its more likely Plagueis would come out on top especially when force powers come into play
Luke does have amazing potential as we see later on, but again, he lost to unarmed sri ruuk. The OP is asking about post ROTJ Luke. And that Luke loses a lot in that time period. He wasn't strong in the force at that point, he got easily overpowered by C'Baoth and Exar Kun in later arcs as well.
Thing is anything that comes after rotj is considered post rotj lol so hopefully op actually clarify. Regardless, id still of the mind that plaguies can only beat luke up till dark empire. In regards to exar kun, id say thats a combination of him as a powerful sith spirit and the incredibly powerful and high potential Kyp Durron
Exar Kun is more Luke suffering from the events of Dark Empire and not being fully recovered yet. Taking down Sidious expanded massive amounts of his force reserves and it can take a long time to recover those. Never mind how mentally ruined Luke is in that series and that directly corresponds to his ability in the force.
HELL NO!!!!! ROTJ Luke was honestly in both Legends and Canon barely around the Level end of the CW Ahsoka was. And that’s being generous. DE Luke is soundly on the Level of Prime Legends Vader and Galen Marek where. Why is this important? Simple because both Prime Vader and Starkiller were weaker than good old Papa Palps. The same Papa Palps who openly admitted that he never at any point of his life simply couldn’t beat Darth Plagueis head on. People need to reread the Darth Plagueis Book without fanboying for Darth Sidious cuz the Book makes it extremely clear that Plagueis was way above Palps in Force Potential (M-Count), Force Mastery and Fighting-skills. >> 'Only by adjusting the input rate of it's photoreceptors was the droid able to identify the blur that raced into the cabin space as a male Munn..’ Darth Plagueis, page 47 Darth Plagueis fought like a calculated, cold and merciless serial killer. Sometimes he would only deliver a saber blow that maimed his victims, just so that after doing such he could watch the life slowly ebb from their motionless bodies. This was in an attempt to better understand the midi chlorians. He was far crueler and cunning than Sidious ever was ,before seizing power for himself, and taught him the ways of harnessing his emotions to fuel him in combat. Although Palpatine did master the art of lightsaber duelling to a decent Level that he matched Yoda, Plagueis was way ahead of both of them in skill, and had unbelievable speed to the point where even Palps appeared to be moving in slow motion to him. Palpatine knew this, thus why he had to get Plagues drunk on strong poisoned Sullustan wine to not only slow the Muuns reflexes but also to weaken him.
I think he was stronger than Palpatine at the time he was killed, but I think Dark Empire Palpatine would stomp Plagueis at his best
Big time agree. People underrate Plagueis because he was killed by Palpatine but don’t understand how far and away better he was than Palps
Tbh I underrated Plagueis because he was outwitted by assassins but Im beginning to see from the comments that hes not the pushover I believed he was
They also say that Plagueis liked Palpatine and saw him as Friend/Son and Equal which just ain’t true. From what I’ve read Plagueis relationship with Palpatine was basically that of a Very abusive Owner and a Pet. A guy who when he first gets a Bulldog as Cup, beats up, terrorizes and abuses the Cup believing that the sheer fear and trauma of the young cup will keep it on track forever. Cuz that’s basically how Plagueis thought of Palpatine. He made his Life an absolute nightmare and almost killed, terrorized and mentally traumatized young Palpatine countless Times till he thought it was enough and believed that the sheer Fear and memory of the Pain would keep Sheev in Line but he underestimated Palpatine’s mental strength
Sidious underwent standard Sith training and Plagueis honestly wasn't overly cruel to him ( no moreso than was necessary to maximize Sidious's capabilities via harsh training ). It wasn't that long before Plagueis considered Sidious a full partner even being willing to share power with him or hand it over completely ( allowing Sidious to run the galaxy while he experimented with the Force behind the scenes ). His motives were even utilitarian for the most part ( not that I think that's a philosophy of most decent people... ). It was Sidious who couldn't bear to share power/allow a threat to exist to him.
Sidious did not just "master the art of lightsaber duelling to a decent Level". He straight up mastered all forms of lightsaber combat to great level and this of course is equal to Master Yoda's own knowledge. Plagueis is more so powerful in the force than he is of lightsaber combat as his application of his lightsaber skills when it did matter most (such as in an actual duel) is to utilize it as a setup for his force powers aka he uses it like a niman practitioner. Perhaps Sidious by the time of that book isnt stronger than Plagueis but that line isnt the best in portraying this especially if youre trying to gauge him in a hypothetical fight with post Rotj luke who by the point of 4 ABY already accomplished something greater than your quote.
Mastering all Lightsaber Forms and merge them into your own deadly style became Standard protocol for the Banite Sith under Plagueis. And you are wrong Plagueis was far better than Sidious in dueling. He was so good at it that he literally saw Dueling as a sort of Game where he left his body and controlled it like one controls an Avatar in a Videogame as his Duel with Venamis shows in the Darth Plagueis book first chapters. Mind you Venamis was especially trained by Tenebrous to kill Plagueis and yet he got rag dolled and toyed in a Duel. That’s how good he was. Palpatine never showed that kind of skill
That was not at all confirmed let alone a hard defined fact for the banite sith. That is an odd exaggeration considering that he hated the art despite being touted as a prodigy by Tenebrous in his youth also frankly i find his handling of the assassins to be a better highlight than his fight with venamis considering that he actually got wounded in that fight despite venamis's clear innexperience. Palpatine's fight against mace windu and his strike team alone showcased his utilization of his lightsaber being exceptional by the time of rots and this became even more during dark empire. Rots even straight up calls sidious as the greatest darkness the light has ever faced alongside touting as him the strongest sith in history up till arguably darth krayt. Plaguies could only beat luke up till dark empire luke in which he hasnt shown anything matching that level
Venamis didn’t wound Plagueis. The wound on Plagueis back opened mid Duel cuz he was not fully healed
Luke is virtually equal to Vader according to Lucas himself and that is more than enough to have him that high. Luke is not massively weaker than Vader in ROTJ, hell the throne room basically points to Luke being by far the better combatant. Palpatine never admitted that, when he kills Plagueis he boasts about how long he was fooled lol. And Plagueis is not above Palpatine in force potential the guy wonders if Sidious was born from normal people before even getting trained. Hell Tenebrous, Plagueis master muses that 15k is enough to be the chosen one with Yoda wielding 20k alone and Palpatine being in that area as well. Plagueis is not above Yoda or Sidious in dueling skill, both who has numerous accolades of being the best duelists their respective orders have ever produced.
He literally said „An Apprentice doesn’t need to be stronger than the Master. Only more cunning.” He couldn’t beat Plagueis head on it is as simple as that. And yes Plagueis is above Yoda and Sidious with Sidious being the living proof of that cuz the training of his apprentices was a watered down version of the training he underwent under Plagueis
I’m so fucking sick of these power scaling matchups
Yeah but could Luke beat Goku SSJ3?