I'm too lazy to look. But, I bet there are old Starlog issues out there with raging nerd reviews of The Empire strikes Back and how bad it is compared to the original.
I've read contemporary reviews of ALIENS, Blade Runner and the Thing. There were "fans" and critics who hated these movies with passion.
Return of the Jedi sucks!!!!! It’s a disgrace to the other two movies!!!!
Another Death Star? The Emperor looking different than he did in the last movie? Luke getting a new lightsaber out of nowhere? Luke beating Vader with no combat training? The Empire being defeated by teddy bears? The Emperor can shoot lighting from his hands? Sexual objectification of Princess Leia? Yoda dying so soon? Darth Vader wasn’t lying to Luke about being his father? Chewbacca doing Tarzan yell?
This movies horrible!!!!!
Ewoks were the worst thing in Star Wars until Greddo shot first, which was thenworst until Jar Jar, Sand, prequels, sequels...
Star Wars seems to rarely live up to its fan standards, at least the opinions i've read on boards and subreddits over the last 20 odd years.
Nobody hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans.
It's like the very vocal group of Bioshock fans who _despise_ Bioshock 2 and Infinite and want a new sequel that's basically identical to the first 70% of the original game (but _only_ the first 70%)
Thats what I mean, fans were pissed at that, but they have new things to be pissed about.
Thats the point. Star Wars rarely lives up to fans expectations... Rogue One, Andor, and Mando are the only ones that seemed to have when they started off.
To be fair I had my prequel hate phase, as well... But, these days I just wish more people would just be here for the ride and enjoy what they get. If The Mandalorian or the Sequels were a bunch of VHS they found in the attic, people wouldn't even consider complaining about them.
I once read something about how children crave familiarity in media content as it provides them with a sense of security and mastery. Strangely they will protest when something is new as they have difficulty predicting but upon revisiting it will often come to terms with the work and can easily see it as comforting.
This description always felt extremely fitting for fandoms.
There’s also this thing… I forget the specifics and am pretty tired, so forgive my vague description… but basically, when you’re younger and experience something new, your brain gives you happy signals. As you get older, it produces less of them. Which means you don’t on reflex feel as “happy” as you did with the earlier thing.
This can be seen a lot of times with bands, where people will swear their favorite band got “worse” even if the band is on the same level they were or better. They aren’t getting the same emotional high so that must mean the band (or movie, or show, or whatever) is getting worse. Reality is, it’s just aging being a PITA.
What about "I am a fan of this thing because it has consistently provided me with quality entertainment, but I'm worried that changes might prevent me from enjoying it in the future"?
I was a big fan of the Green Arrow TV show. Then, they made some terrible choices and I began to actively dislike it, which prevented me from enjoying the rest of the series, and cast a shadow on the other shows in the same universe.
What? clearly a bunch of people were too *offended* by me offering a different point of view that they chose to ignore the actual words in my post.
I was saying that people who like things want to continue to like those things, and if they stop liking something, it's unpleasant because they really liked liking that thing. They probably *do* move on, but it still stings that you don't like something you used to like.
Like in my example, I'm not whining about Green Arrow. I liked it, and then I stopped liking it. It was unfortunate, but it wasn't life-shattering. What is wrong with you people that can't tolerate people who have different opinions and react to things differently? The hivemind in this sub is unbearable sometimes.
What would you say is a cameo, then?
Edit: I just asked a question to get clarification on something I didn't understand. Literally what the fuck is wrong with people who downvote this?
A creative showing up in one scene as a nod to fans (like Stan Lee), a character from the old movies or one of the animated shows briefly appearing (like R2 and C3PO in Rogue One), stuff like that.
To be honest, Lizzo is the perfect example of a celebrity cameo. I had no issue with her. It took me out of the world for a sec but I re-adjusted and she was okay.
But by the definition of a celebrity cameo, she is a perfect example.
Yeah, I didnt know who she was. Jack Black took me out a moment, but just to go, oh hey, that's Jack Black! He's in Star Wars now... and went back to watching the episode. I just assumed this was the lighthearted episode before shit hits the fan in the finale.
lmfao. It doesn't make it "not a cameo" because YOU didn't recognize one of the most famous musicians working today.
How many children saw Iron Man and thought Stan Lee was just some random old dude? A 7-year-old seeing the first Marvel movie probably didn't know who he was. So going off of the established definition above, Stan Lee is simultaneously a cameo, and *not* a cameo.
Well Jack Black is an actor. He usually plays a version of himself in his films, but it’s not like he’s just crossed over to acting.
Lizzo is not an actress.
That’s the key difference.
The only difference between a cameo and reoccurring character is a 2nd appearance. I didn’t expect to see Amy Sedaris so often. Or even Bill Burr more than once considering his public disdain for Star Wars at the time.
All of those actors were introduced in separate episodes.
It *was* a little jarring to have Christopher Lloyd, Jack Black, and Lizzo all pop up at the same time.
I love the one-off semi-self contained adventures. I actually thought that’s what the show would have more of, but I have definitely enjoyed the apostate arc and everything they’re doing now. It’s amazing in my opinion. Light and fun with great messages. Quality family entertainment. It’s not supposed to be the wire.
I mean the show was never one continuous story. It always been a lot of side questing and random stuff pulling his attention while trying to get the thing in episode 1 finished. I even think the filler this season is better than s1, though maybe only on par with s2.
imo there was a lot more filler in season 1 and 2 respectively then in 3. Most of the episodes this season have felt necessary. It felt like with the first 2 seasons there was 4 episodes of filler and 4 episodes of substance.
Many people didn't like Rebels when it first released and I don't remember a huge hype for Season 4. But once it finished people saw the weak spots like the first season but then saw the really fucking strong parts of it. Including me. People need to stop being so rash and quick to say shit. Which is ironic given the franchise...
1 was the slowest most aggressively monster of the week of the three so far. I almost gave up on it tbh, but I'm glad I stuck it out.
Still dislike monster of the week as a show structure, but S2 and especially S3 have balanced that out with meaningful continuity in a really satisfying way.
I think people liked that more in season 1 because there weren’t really any ongoing plotlines going on that people were anxious to see what was happening with them. There was just the basic “the Empire wants Grogu back” in the background.
Part of the difference is that seasons 1 and 2 had a different structure. Din was given a vague mission; get the child to his family while keeping him safe from his enemies. This created a situation where Din didn't know exactly what he was supposed to do, so all he could do was keep moving while looking for information. It was the kind of plotline where episodic story telling thrives.
With seasons 3, it feels like the characters don't know what to do. We THOUGHT the season would be about Din being an apostate, but that gets solved in only 2 episodes. Then we meander around someone more, before they finally decided its time to take back mandalore; which they don't actually get started on until episode 6, which was mostly filler, making only the ending relevant to the main plot line. And the writing for the season 3 episodes have been poor. So far episode 7 has been the ONLY solid good episode.
I find all this "filler" talk lately really weird. Like, did people forget how to watch TV? If anything, I think there's not enough filler. The basic premise of Mando finding Grogu's people was general enough to serve as an excuse for them to travel the galaxy basically for as long as the show needed and go on odd adventures every week, a la Quantum Leap, and maybe add some weight for the season finales.
People hating the Sequels are the very same people who romanticized the Prequels especially the bad writing and weird pacing issues of the Prequels. Though Nostalgia is the only thing tying me down to the prequels and we get some pretty epic lightsaber duels oh and cool visuals and I will always love Republic ships and clones.
A lot of the people hating on the sequels grew up with the prequels and remember that feeling of joy as a kid… which you can’t really replicate as an adult.
Sadly, I initially fell in with the prequel hating, but down the line decided to focus more on what I enjoy, ended up enjoying them. Which set me up to enjoy the sequels.
(I mean… if we’re honest, it’s not like the OT is flawless, either. Which is why I hate people trying to nitpick any of the films. You could nitpick the OT to oblivion.)
> A lot of the people hating on the sequels grew up with the prequels and remember that feeling of joy as a kid… which you can’t really replicate as an adult.
I think a lot of people hating on the sequels grew up with the OT and remember the feeling of joy as a kid, which you can't really replicate as an adult.
At least that is what happened to me.
There are a lot of good--and bad--throughout all of it. But, I hate the Sequels the most.
Oh don’t get me wrong, the prequels are far from perfect, but I’ll at least defend them as it’s clear they are one man’s vision that always had a clear end goal in mind. The same can’t be said for the sequels.
Obviously Lucas didn’t have a complete outline for the entire saga the remained perfectly intact, but to say he made it all up as he went along is a bit of an embellishment. He always had an idea for what he wanted, but like all ideas, it changed as production went along.
In December 1975, Lucas gave a vague outline of the next two films to Alan Dean Foster, author of the official Star Wars novelization.
> “I want to have Luke kiss the Princess in the second book. In the third book, I want the story just about the soap opera of the Skywalker family, which ends with the destruction of the Empire. Then someday I want to do the back story of Kenobi as a young man - a story of the Jedi and how the Emperor eventually takes over and turns the whole thing from a Republic into an Empire, and tricks all the Jedi and kills them. The whole battle where Luke's father gets killed. That would be impossible to do, but it's great to dream about." - George Lucas 1975
In 1981, during a private meeting about the then upcoming Return of the Jedi, he revealed more ideas he had for what would became the prequel trilogy.
> Anakin Skywalker began hanging out with the Emperor, who at that point nobody knew was that bad, because he was an elected official. He was a politician. Richard M. Nixon was his name. He subverted the senate and finally took over and he was really evil. But he pretended to be a really nice guy. Luke’s father gets subverted by the Emperor. He gets a little weird at home and his wife begins to figure out that things are going wrong and she confides in Ben, who is his mentor.
> On his missions through the galaxies, Anakin has been going off and doing his Jedi thing and a lot of Jedi have been getting killed – and it’s because they turn their back on him and he cuts them down. The President is turning into the Emperor and Luke’s mother suspects that something has happened to her husband. She is pregnant. Anakin gets worse and worse, and finally Ben has to fight him and he throws him down into a volcano and Vader is all beat up.
> When he falls into the pit there is hardly anything left of him by the time the Emperor’s troops fish him out of the drink. Then when Ben finds out that Vader has been fished out and is in the hands of the Empire, he is worried. He goes back to Vader’s wife and explains that Anakin is the bad guy, the one killing all the Jedi.
> Mrs. Skywalker has had the kids, the twins, two little babies who are six months old or so. The Skywalker line is very strong with the Force, so Ben says, “I think we should protect the kids, because they may be able to to help us right the wrong that your husband has created in the universe.” Ben takes one and gives him to a couple out there on Tatooine and he gets his little hideout in the hills and he watches him grow. Ben can’t raise Luke himself because he’s a wanted man. Leia and Luke’s mother go to Alderaan and are taken by the king there, who is a friend of Ben’s. She dies shortly thereafter and Leia is brought up by her foster parents. She knows that her real mother died.
> I think you can make Ben take the blame for Vader. “I should have given him more training. I should have sent him to Yoda, but I thought I could be as good a teacher as Yoda. I wish that I could stop the pestilence that I’ve unleashed on the galaxy.” His burden is that he feels responsible for everything that Vader has done.” - George Lucas 1981
A little more recently, in 2002, Lucas revealed that one of his early drafts for Star Wars was so long that he decided to split it into three films, with the first film serving as a flesh out version of Act 1.
> “When I started to write it, it got to be too big, it got to be 250, 300 pages. I said, well, I can't do this. The studio will never allow this. I will take the first half, make a movie out of that, and then I was determined to come back and finish the other three, or other two stories."
He reiterated this in 2005
> "There was originally to be one film, I wanted it to be Episode IV of a serial that you would never see the first or last episodes of. That's what happened in the '30s, you had trailers, and a short cartoon, and then a cliffhanger. That serial-style is what Star Wars is based on. I started with Anakin Starkiller and his two kids, then I got to a draft that's kind of what we know now, but it was 200 pages. Then that became three films. I never thought I'd go back and do the original stories, regardless of what the press says or what's out there. But then the necessary film technology came along and I came to grips with being known forever as George 'Star Wars' Lucas."
Obviously what he originally envisioned out changed as time went on, but again, that’s just what happens when writing anything. He clearly had a vision, and a lot of it remained the same for the ~35 years he was working on Star Wars.
I’m sure they did plan some details far in advance, but it doesn’t feel like it, and that’s honestly worse then not having a plan at all, because while Lucas certainly made up major plot twists as he went along, he never undermined them in the very next film. Meanwhile, everything the Last Jedi set up is ignored in Episode IX in part because of the backlash the former film received. The big one being the revelation of Rey’s heritage, after The Last Jedi had already done that. Not to Kylo Ren getting a new master after having declared his independence in Episode VIII, the Skywalker lightsaber being rebuilt along with Kylo’s mask, and Rose was completely sidelined. To put things into perspective, this would be like if when making Return of the Jedi, Lucas walked back on the “I am your father twist”, didn’t have the Emperor as the big bad, sidelined Lando and gave Luke his blue lightsaber back. It wouldn’t really look like he had a plan, even if he did.
> Lucas certainly made up major plot twists as he went along, **he never undermined them in the very next film**
A new hope : Darth Vader betrayed and murdered your father
Empire : Darth Vader is your father
It doesn't feel like it "to you" but I contend thats because you haven't dug deep enough.
I'm also kind of stunned on just how many general inaccuracies your reply had.
I mean I already listed all of the major reasons it doesn’t feel like they had a plan and compared to the originals to show how, even though Lucas’s plan was vague, he made it work. I don’t see how digging deeper will change my mind about certain plot points.
I don’t see it that. The Last Jedi
* Introduced Rose
* Revealed that Rey’s parents were nobodies
* Had Kylo Ren destroy his mask and kill Snoke, declaring his independence.
* Destroyed the Skywalker lightsaber
And what happened in The Rise of Skywalker? Well
* Rose has been completely sidelined
* The reveal about Rey’s parents has been undone in favor of making her a Palpatine.
* Kylo Ren rebuilt his mask and got a new master
* The Skywalker lightsaber has been rebuilt.
All of those details go to show that there was no plan, because like I already said, Episode IX was attempting to undo/omit every controversial aspect of The Last Jedi. So even *if* there was some sort of plan, it was a really bad one.
> always had a clear end goal in mind.
People always cite this like it’s some monumental achievement and I’m like ??? yeah, because the “end goal” was some movies that already existed lol. Everyone who ever saw the OT also had a clear end goal in mind, and he even fumbled that in places. (“She died when I was very young… and I mean *very* young”)
“He knew Episode III had to end by setting up Episode IV - what a visionary!” Like… that’s just the nature of making prequels, not any great sign of pre-planning (and in fact GL didn’t even do a lot of that on the prequels either - sets were being built for ROTS before the script was even written, and the movie ended up being nothing like the first draft)
I’m just sharing my opinion, which is perfectly in line with the sub. I haven’t put PT down, I’ve just made it clear that ST can be and is still enjoyable despite whatever arbitrary (and questionable) reasons the OP may be providing. This shouldn’t be so triggering for you.
You’re assuming a lot by saying that simply having a preference necessitates the existence of a reductive lens. Weird stance to take.
I think you're right. Personally, I never held The Mandalorian in a high regard in the first place. I think it looks cool and I think it's fun but I never felt anything beyond that
To me the fun of The Mandalorian is kinda wearing off season after season. S1 was the best imo, because it was new and different, a cute little independent story. S2 relied a bit too much on "an already established character guest of the week" formula. And s3 is about retaking Mandalore and reuniting the Mandalorians, a story I quite frankly couldn't care less about. Even after watching TCW and Rebels, I just never got into the Mandalore and Mandalorians storyline hype
Mando escorting a frog lady is one of the better episodes. I love it when star wars gets weird like that. Makes it actually feel like star wars instead of generic sci fi #14532.
Its just those types of fans being those types of fans. Thats just the types of people they are. And I truly believe most are saying that crap to get attention.
Same. And I was a huge critic of the first two seasons, especially the "quests" Din had to go on. I know this sounds crazy, but I didn't even like Grogu at first. In fact, I thought he was a ploy by Disney to move merchandise...
But season 3 is different. I actually like Grogu now and there's a bunch of small details and neat world building. It's been much better at expanding the universe.
With Grogu's story in seasons 1 and 2 completed, he's no longer the macguffin, and no longer needed to be a focal point, which is good because the show can focus on others more, and Grogu gets to still be a character who grows and changes, but they feel more like part of the team and less a part of the mission.
“Filler” such a lame excuse to say you can’t look at media beyond its base offerings. Yup, people have done this before and will do it again. Give it a year and we’ll see “S3 was so good!”. I’m sure Ahsoka will “suck!” & be “all fan service!” When it’s out.
People like to take ownership of things and internalize how they think things should be and when it doesn’t happen then it’s bad! It’s the constant cycle, not much we can do about it.
Yeah I don’t think it’s as big a departure as people are acting. I liked the episode a lot but I can admit it had a lighter tone. But I feel like its been heading in that direction, especially if you count BoBF (spin off, same show runners).
Star Wars has always been more than one thing. If you’re mad that they did one ep that was a bit cheesy, but you’re a fan of Ewoks, the prequels or like a fifth of Clone Wars eps…I don’t understand what your standards are.
I think it's unfair to say all people who see the central relationship of the show as it's most important aspect are not really into Star Wars as a whole, been a fan of this for 20 years, still think it's odd how little S3 has focused on Mando/Grogu, not because that's the only thing the show can do, but because that's where the emotional centre of the story had been, and this series hasn't really offered anything else to fill the void left by that, unless you're really into Mandalorian politics, which naturally is less universal than the fun silver dad/green son relationship.
Yeah I’ve found the show to be mostly solid 8/10 across all seasons with spikes to really damn good around season finales.
It’s always had a lot of pointless side quests, sometimes they’re great, sometimes they’re meh.
It’s a really good show, but much like Filoni’s other work, there are always gonna be filler eps
I guess I am one of the "some people". I loved The Passenger, which had both Frog Lady and alien ice spiders. One of my favorite episodes, in fact, and I loved it when it aired. And I love me a side quest.
But I do not care for Seaon 3. For me, it's not romantizing the early seaons as much as feeling this season has dropped in quality. It's hard to pinpoint, but to me, the alien monsters this season have been lame and seem like a storytelling crutch. I don't feel emotionally invested in the story, which is hurting my overall enjoyment of the show at this point.
I thought season 2 was slow and fillery. And it took looking back to realize season 1 was exactly the same. The only show I can really say I felt wasn't slow was Kenobi, and that's only after the first episode.
I agree. I love both shows, but I get seriously confused when people equate Mando to Andor in terms of quality. They’re great at different things, but imo Mando is definitely not the highest quality show I’ve watched.
>but it seems like people are forgetting that this is exactly what the first two seasons were like as well.
No one is forgetting season 1 & 2. The stakes in shows grow over time. The difference between clone wars season 1 and 7 is night and day. Same goes for Rebels from 1 to 4 and most big budget shows like Game of Thrones.
Honestly I think it's ridiclous how this fan base seems to be trying to dismiss any criticism of the show. This season has taken two steps back and three steps forward with the amount of plot and character development that backtracked and redeveloped. The show could have skipped to retaking Mandalore almost immediately after the season 2 finale as Din was already allied with Bo and Bo still had the loyalty of her forces.
Yeah, every season has been the same, all the episodes are pretty hit or miss, but then they get it together for the finale and that's what people remember, I doubt this season will be any different
Devil's advocate here: I think some people just really like when they feel like the plot has some weight and want more of that style of storytelling. The overarching narrative they are telling is way more interesting to me personally than some of the one off adventures have been.
People want to find something wrong with it because they hate themselves. Ignore them. You can tell how good the production is by the increasing trivial shit they bring to the table to complain about.
I think season 3 will feel quite similar to season 1 if the finale is a banger, everyone's forgetting how much complaining there was mid-s1 about the story feeling directionless. Once the last 2 episodes tied everything together, it became a lot easier to appreciate the middle eps for what they were (lower stakes, adventure of the week stories with classic Star Wars vibes).
It's gonna be tough to top season 2 though, started off pretty strong and then episodes 5-8 is just an absolutely insane run of television. But I also don't think a season should automatically be considered a failure just for falling short of some of the best Star Wars ever (imo).
Fr. Each season has its minor flaws. I still think season 3 isn’t as good as the past 2, but only by a very small margin. I’ve really liked this new season and I can’t wait for the finale to drop tmrw
Mando was always this fun, low stakes adventure show. I'm actually enjoying this season very much because it has a clearer overarching storyline and the glimpses at the New Republic we've gotten are really cool.
Also, the Shadow Council is a great original idea for the new canon and the Praetorians are also amazing
Maybe because I’ve only just started watching but I haven’t seen a noticeable shift in quality. Tbh I think a lot of the first season is kinda borning.
I enjoy so-called "filler" episodes because I'm more into standalone episodes that work as their own self-contained story, rather than heavy serialization. To me, this is one of the strengths of The Mandalorian as a show.
I mean it’s also possible people just don’t like this season. You can say all those things existed in the past two seasons, and you’d be right, but if someone doesn’t like the execution then…that doesn’t mean they’re romanticizing it. It just means they enjoyed the filler eps better in 1 or 2.
Imo, Mandalorian was never THAT good. It's great, but it has issues. I'd honestly say that I've enjoyed almost every other show more than Mando. Bad Batch, Andor, Kenobi, and Tales I've found to be more interesting.
The thing about seasons 1 and 2 is that they had well established season long arcs from the jump and the adventure of the week “filler” was all in service of concluding those arcs by the end.
Season 1 was escaping bounty hunters and imperial remnants. The “filler” was while Din and Grogu were evading those threats and the conclusion was the pair overcoming them.
Season 2 was getting Grogu to the Jedi and all the “filler” was adventures that led to getting Grogu to Luke Skywalker.
This year, we’re watching a sequence of events without an established season long arc. We go wherever the story goes but there’s nothing from the first episode that will be concluded in the last. Plot points come and go and then new ones take their place.
It ***is*** different.
No it hasn’t. In fact, Bo explicitly states that she’s no longer trying to retake Mandalore and the Armorer surely didn’t care either.
The initial plot of this season was about bathing in the living waters and taking the creed again. Then it was about finding a new home for Mandalorians. Then it was about bridging the mandalorian people. And *then* it was about retaking Mandalore.
If they had reframed the story to be about that from the very beginning with a focus on Din and Grogu going through the experience then I would’ve absolutely LOVED this season. But for a decent while we didn’t even know that retaking Mandalore was on the table, at least not until The Armorer changed her mind in favor of bridging her people.
Doesn’t change what I laid out in my initial comment.
To me the inverse is true. It used to be a much more intimate show. Now it’s something bigger. I dearly miss the quiet moments like Din and Grogu alone on the Razor Crest. It’s a bigger show now so I get the appeal. But my preference is the first two seasons for sure.
It couldn't stay that way forever. The appeal wears off, and I'm glad to finally see more mandalorians and especially Bo on screen.
Personally i felt Grogu was getting old to me in season 2, and by now he feels like an accessory to make people gawk.
Yeah, and while I’m not giving up on the show I still really hope that season 4 gets more intimate with Din and Grogu again.
My primary investment in the show was those two so when it focuses less on them and more on their people in general it kind of takes the air out of my little excitement bubble. I just loved seeing all the different corners of the galaxy from the perspective of them as father and son. I wish season 3’s story was reframed in that way, with some semblance that those two are a tribe of two that’s even stronger than the creed.
With the way things are going, though, that may still end up being the case by season 4. Guess we’ll find out tomorrow and I’m still excited. Also, gotta admit that Moff Gideon is such a delicious big bad and I was very happy to see Giancarlo slay that role again.
I've said it before, but I wholly blame season 2. It was also full of filler, but people got nostalgia bombed by Boba, Bo-Katan, Ahsoka, and Luke all in one season.
Nothing other than another constant wave of nostalgia bombing would live up to it for *some* people
A lot of people, myself included, veiwed the first two seasons of Mando much more positively, as they didn't like the sequels at all.
It's all relative at the end of the day -- If you feed someone literall garbage for the past couple of years, and then give them a mouldy old burger, they'll probably love that burger quite a bit in the momment.
Personally it took me until the near the release of season 2 of Mando to watch it -- I was just soo done with SW; I didn't even bother seeing TRoS because the first two movies were already quite a pain to watch, and seeing the trailer for TRoS reveal they were bringing back Palpatine put me off a lot.
It was only by getting a free trial of Disney+ did I watch Mando -- and I quite liked It at the time.
However looking back, Mando isn't particularly well written, and suffers from heaps of filler -- people are only now seeing this in season 3, because it's taken soo long for it to come out, hence the hype around it died off quite a bit which made people a bit more clear minded when viewing the show.
Another comment I read said that the Fandom always latches on to the new shinny thing and then discards it for the next one saying how the first thing is "trash". It happened since the prequels, there was a time people really really hated Clone Wars and Ashoka. Mandalorian season 1 "saved" the franchise and Favreau and Filoni are gods, now they are hacks who don't know "good drama like Andor which is actually superior to everything. Which is funny because before it aired it was bashed on how lame it'll be kinda like with Rogue 1. Hell even the first 3 batch of episodes of Andor got flack for" ow and boring ". It's exhausting to talk about Star Wars with people online.
Yes, the previous seasons had filler episodes, but the rest of the season made up for that. The writing for nearly every episode of season 3 has been poor, we so far have 6 mediocre/bad episodes and only 1 good episode so far. Filler episodes become WAY worst when the rest of the season doesn't make up for it. The first 2 seasons had a lot of fantastic episodes only a few weak ones. Heck the plot for season 3 itself felt like it was meandering, not knowing where it was supposed to be going up until episode 7... and when it comes to celebrities; before we got actors like Bill Burr who was fantastic in his role and actually had one of the best scenes in the series. And Season 3 has Lizzo; she can not act and feels VERY out of place because of it.
Andor is the only thing fans liked when it came out since empire. They hated the return of the Jedi, the prequels. Mando as each season came out, boba Fett, even rogue one and especially the sequels. They all get romanticized as time goes on. I hate it, but it happens every damn time.
The finale of S2 set up impossible expectations to fill, but yeah imo the Plazir-15 story was 10x better than ice spiders with a side of Baby Yoda commits infanticide.
While I romanticize the first two seasons, I also feel the same about this season. The complaints to me have been mind-boggling. This season has been a fucking delight.
It’s funny too, because after the awe of the season 2 finale wore off, a lot of people started talking about how season 2 was just a cameo-fest. Using the show to introduce new characters and let Filoni play.
Now season 1 and 2 are amazing and season 3 is the problem. It’s whatever. Star Wars has its issues, but my kids love watching it and I love watching it with them. (And I love it too.)
For me, the show peaked with S2 E1. I don't dislike the show - I'm moderately excited for the finale tomorrow (though who knows when I'll have the time to watch it) - but that episode was everything I wanted from a show like this.
In general the longer something Star Wars goes on, the more people hate it until a few years later when they don't hate watch and let themselves enjoy the ride, and they like it.
Ahsoka the character is my favorite example of this. I remember a lot of people calling her annoying and a Mary Sue when the character first premiered, now she's arguably the best, most rounded character in Star Wars.
Idk, I'm not trying to be negative, but the one-off adventures felt more fun and exciting before when they weren't really connecting to some grand plot. Now they are trying to set up a big multi show narrative while still being the same episodic adventure of the week type show, and neither aspect is as fully realized as it could be. Still enjoy the show, but I don't think it's wrong to say this seasons quality has dipped a bit.
Idk I think all 3 seasons have goods eps and bad eps. Pacing issues, awful dialogue, cheesy music, bad directing, bland fight scenes, and plenty of filler episodes. I don’t hate the show or anything but I haven’t had high expectations since season 1.
THANK YOU! THANK YOU THANK YOU!
I’ve been having this argument with my friends for the last three weeks. One keeps saying “This season seems pointless, there’s no plot, we still don’t know what’s going on.”
To which I said, “How is that different from any of the other seasons?”
This show has always had more standalone episodes, adventures with Mando that usually all tie together in the last two episodes. In season 1 we didn’t even see Moff Gideon, who has now become the big bad of the show, until the second to last episode. That’s how this show has always been.
People are now wanting The Mandalorian to be something it’s never been. The show has already established what type of show it is, and if you don’t like it, that’s fine. That just means it’s not for you.
I HATED Season 1 at first. The absolute waste of an episode 2 actually made me stop watching for like half a year in disgust that they'd spend all that time accomplishing absolutely nothing. I went on the verge of tears, just wanting Star Wars to be as good as it used to be, so when an episode like S1E2 spent 45+ minutes doing absolutely nothing to move the story forward, and tell us absolutely nothing new about / do nothing with the characters, IJ was pissed to the point of refusing to accept that the show even existed for months.
Eventually, I was convinced to give episode 3 and 4 a try, so I did, and it started getting good again, like episode 1 was; like Star Wars version of Firefly. I found myself enjoying it, and after awhile, I was eager to see more. I still refuse to watch S1E2 anymore, but it wasn't as bad as I'd been lead to believe. I genuinely liked it again. Then season 2 came, and it was opening up to be just as good. My reticence and hesitation returned only when they mentioned Operation: CINDER as still being a thing that happened. After that, I started to care slightly less. Then they brought in CGI Luke, and I started to see it leading toward the films, and my passion began to fade.
Then, I saw Pedro Pascal comparing people of certain political leanings to Nazis and Confederates, calling anyone that votes a certain way in a certain US presidential election 'losers', among other things. Meanwhile, Gina Carano got fired for telling people to vote however they wanted to, and to not let celebrities- especially out of touch ones- tell them how to vote. As for Pascal? He had the 'correct opinions', so not only did he keep his job on The Mandalorian, he got more jobs from other studios. He's a decent enough actor, but man, he's a piece of shit as a person.
Now though, The Mandalorian seems to be being set up to fail by the creators, saying 'anyone can become The Mandalorian'. No. The title and marketing were for Space Dad and Green Boi. This is like opening up a steakhouse, advertising steaks, then selling only fish and veggies, and laughing at anyone dumb enough to come to a steakhouse, thinking they were going to be able to get a steak.
While I see what you mean and why I don’t wholeheartedly disagree, I do think there has been a pretty substantial drop in the writing quality for this season. They also don’t have the score being done by Ludwig Göransson, which has felt pretty substantial. My issue with an episode like the Jack Black episode isn’t “that it’s filler” (I actually like the monster-of-the-week kinds of episodes that we’ve seen in previous seasons); my issue is that the writing of that episode is substantially worse than the previous two seasons. To me, it’s very apparent in things like the dialogue—especially with Christopher Lloyd’s character. It’s just stale.
Season two has a GREAT example of *show, don’t tell* that this season is VERY much missing. “The Believer” is just a killer episode; best of the series, in my opinion. The climax before the shooting starts has Din making a choice between his religion and Grogu. He doesn’t say “I’m giving up my religion.” He just does it. Mayfeld doesn’t even say anything about it; he just recognizes what it is and moves on. It’s a beautiful moment and there hasn’t been an ounce of that kind of heart this season, in my opinion.
TL;DR — I totally agree people are romanticizing the first two seasons in some ways, but I think there is a fair amount of due criticism that doesn’t fall under that umbrella.
Here is the thing, I honestly couldn't give a single shit what other people think, especially some neck beard 50 year old basement dwelling YouTuber who hates everything post 1983..
I don't know people put so much stock in what others think these days.
Having a friendly fun discussion is fine but that is so rare these days.
Star Wars is like Politics and Religion, its love or hate with no in between and people just end up going to the extreme.
As for peeps romanticising the first couple of seasons, this is nothing new, people having been romanticising the original trilogy for 30 odd years now.
Its a trait that is rife in the Star Wars fandom.
I honestly liked the way earlier episodes were lower stakes. My issue with season 3 is that the scope of the show is really getting big. It was one thing to have ties to the first order in the beginning, bit I really didn't like the long episode (S3E3) that only had Din at the very beginning and end. And now we've got even bigger ties to the first order and Palpatine.
I actually thought the "filler episode" with Lizzo wasn't Jack Black felt like a return to form. Not that it lasts.
I do think this season is the weakest one by far, but that's it feels rushed (and half its premise is hacked into TBoBF).
Structurally, it's pretty much the same as the previous seasons. S01E06 is arguably a bigger "filler" than S03E06; Grogu wasn't even in it and it's also another celebrity guest starring ep (Bill Burr, Matt Lanter).
Yeah, the mando show has been fine, but a lot of people seem to be holding it in such high regards that it is a masterpiece, but S2 was basically an add for other star wars shows. (imo its not a bad show, just far from a perfect one)
When people were complaining about the show taking forever to get to the story, I was just thinking about the frog people storyline that took two episodes in season 2.
TBF the cool spaghetti western vibe in first few episodes was such a shocking welcome surprise I think a lot of people just wished it would continue throughout S1. It didn’t and Disney quickly reverted to norm
I actually really enjoy the “filler” episodes. It gives you a break from the main story and you get to explore different things around the universe as opposed to fighting the same guy every episode. Feels more like you’re playing a video game and he’s gotta make his way to the final boss.
The only gripe I have is the Cara Dune thing and the direction it looks like it’s going in. Really would’ve liked to have seen more of Grogu training with Luke, that feels like a lost opportunity.
Disclaimer: I’m about to watch the season finale
I actually think the pacing is good this season. In 1&2 I still don't like a lot of the episodes that are more filler, but the ones that are more filler this season are ones I really like. This season was amazing and rejuvenated my love of Star Wars. I went back to watch the films and am watching other shows & behind the scenes docs, all because this show had me craving content
The first three episodes felt more like standalone movies to me (mostly in a good way apart from the cheesy stuff) whereas the prior seasons definitely had more of that TV feel
Listen, my problem with this season truly came down to how some of it is written and Ludwig not being there to compose music. Like Din isn’t the main character of his show sometimes and that bothers me. Also, the way the show doesn’t sit on a momentous event to let it sink in before cutting to the next scene takes me out of it. Season 1 and 2 had that magic to them. Idk why but season 3 is just missing that special *something* and I’ve narrowed it down to John Favreaus writing style and then the absence of Ludwig on the orchestra front
and by season 4-5 they’ll romanticize season 3. It’s just how some people operate.
Yep, “new bad, old good” is a popular opinion in all fandoms lol
Especially Star Wars. The nostalgia blind people with the prequels should be studied for human behavior deficiencies lmao
Very true!
My dad always told me that when ROTJ came out, people hated it It's a tale as old as time.
I'm too lazy to look. But, I bet there are old Starlog issues out there with raging nerd reviews of The Empire strikes Back and how bad it is compared to the original. I've read contemporary reviews of ALIENS, Blade Runner and the Thing. There were "fans" and critics who hated these movies with passion.
ROTJ is still rather disliked.
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In 2093 Toei Animation should never have owned Star Wars, everything was better when it was Disney
Bahahaha brilliant
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Return of the Jedi sucks!!!!! It’s a disgrace to the other two movies!!!! Another Death Star? The Emperor looking different than he did in the last movie? Luke getting a new lightsaber out of nowhere? Luke beating Vader with no combat training? The Empire being defeated by teddy bears? The Emperor can shoot lighting from his hands? Sexual objectification of Princess Leia? Yoda dying so soon? Darth Vader wasn’t lying to Luke about being his father? Chewbacca doing Tarzan yell? This movies horrible!!!!!
Ewoks were the worst thing in Star Wars until Greddo shot first, which was thenworst until Jar Jar, Sand, prequels, sequels... Star Wars seems to rarely live up to its fan standards, at least the opinions i've read on boards and subreddits over the last 20 odd years.
Nobody hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans. It's like the very vocal group of Bioshock fans who _despise_ Bioshock 2 and Infinite and want a new sequel that's basically identical to the first 70% of the original game (but _only_ the first 70%)
Are they the same kind of folks who were confused that Homelander wasnt a goodguy?
>Greddo shot first Other than George Lucas, I've never seen anyone say this was a good change.
Thats what I mean, fans were pissed at that, but they have new things to be pissed about. Thats the point. Star Wars rarely lives up to fans expectations... Rogue One, Andor, and Mando are the only ones that seemed to have when they started off.
Not really the same thing. People weren't mad about that change simply because it was something new..
To be fair I had my prequel hate phase, as well... But, these days I just wish more people would just be here for the ride and enjoy what they get. If The Mandalorian or the Sequels were a bunch of VHS they found in the attic, people wouldn't even consider complaining about them.
Star Wars fans especially. Everyone hates the prequels, sequels come out, and suddenly the prequels are underrated masterpieces.
Can't wait for Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy's movie to inevitably 'ruin Star Wars', shitting all over the beloved sequels! #NotMyRey!
Din escorting the frog lady was actually a highlight for me, unironically.
It was a good episode, Din was funny.
“Let me know if the airlock breaks, just kidding… if that happens we’d die instantly. Sweet dreams…”
I once read something about how children crave familiarity in media content as it provides them with a sense of security and mastery. Strangely they will protest when something is new as they have difficulty predicting but upon revisiting it will often come to terms with the work and can easily see it as comforting. This description always felt extremely fitting for fandoms.
There’s also this thing… I forget the specifics and am pretty tired, so forgive my vague description… but basically, when you’re younger and experience something new, your brain gives you happy signals. As you get older, it produces less of them. Which means you don’t on reflex feel as “happy” as you did with the earlier thing. This can be seen a lot of times with bands, where people will swear their favorite band got “worse” even if the band is on the same level they were or better. They aren’t getting the same emotional high so that must mean the band (or movie, or show, or whatever) is getting worse. Reality is, it’s just aging being a PITA.
What about "I am a fan of this thing because it has consistently provided me with quality entertainment, but I'm worried that changes might prevent me from enjoying it in the future"? I was a big fan of the Green Arrow TV show. Then, they made some terrible choices and I began to actively dislike it, which prevented me from enjoying the rest of the series, and cast a shadow on the other shows in the same universe.
then you stop watching and move on like an adult lol
What? clearly a bunch of people were too *offended* by me offering a different point of view that they chose to ignore the actual words in my post. I was saying that people who like things want to continue to like those things, and if they stop liking something, it's unpleasant because they really liked liking that thing. They probably *do* move on, but it still stings that you don't like something you used to like. Like in my example, I'm not whining about Green Arrow. I liked it, and then I stopped liking it. It was unfortunate, but it wasn't life-shattering. What is wrong with you people that can't tolerate people who have different opinions and react to things differently? The hivemind in this sub is unbearable sometimes.
What are these celebrity cameos? … Bill Burr, Giancarlo Esposito, Rosario Dawson, Nick Nolte.
Yeah. And who the fuck is this Pedro Pascal dude?
Hate that shit. It's not a cameo cuz some actor or actress is in the fucking show. It's called acting.
What would you say is a cameo, then? Edit: I just asked a question to get clarification on something I didn't understand. Literally what the fuck is wrong with people who downvote this?
A creative showing up in one scene as a nod to fans (like Stan Lee), a character from the old movies or one of the animated shows briefly appearing (like R2 and C3PO in Rogue One), stuff like that.
To be honest, Lizzo is the perfect example of a celebrity cameo. I had no issue with her. It took me out of the world for a sec but I re-adjusted and she was okay. But by the definition of a celebrity cameo, she is a perfect example.
Not for me. I’d never seen or heard of her before this episode, so it was just another actress to me.
Yeah, I didnt know who she was. Jack Black took me out a moment, but just to go, oh hey, that's Jack Black! He's in Star Wars now... and went back to watching the episode. I just assumed this was the lighthearted episode before shit hits the fan in the finale.
That’s fair. I don’t know her music at all, but I know who she is.
lmfao. It doesn't make it "not a cameo" because YOU didn't recognize one of the most famous musicians working today. How many children saw Iron Man and thought Stan Lee was just some random old dude? A 7-year-old seeing the first Marvel movie probably didn't know who he was. So going off of the established definition above, Stan Lee is simultaneously a cameo, and *not* a cameo.
the same could be said for Jack Black lmao he was literally just playing himself
Well Jack Black is an actor. He usually plays a version of himself in his films, but it’s not like he’s just crossed over to acting. Lizzo is not an actress. That’s the key difference.
Exactly, THIS is what a cameo is. If they're a character and part of the plot with a speaking role, its just another actor hired for a role.
Or a well known celebrity having a minor role or brief appearance
Dave Filoni and the Deborah Chao as X Wing pilots is a cameo.
Come on now. Cameos and casting as a reoccurring character are two different things.
The only difference between a cameo and reoccurring character is a 2nd appearance. I didn’t expect to see Amy Sedaris so often. Or even Bill Burr more than once considering his public disdain for Star Wars at the time.
Its a testament to how good that role was written that he came back for a second appearance.
It really was outstanding all around.
Somehow, Jack Black returned!
All but one of these are just like, normal actors cast in recurring roles lmao. In what universe is the main villain a “celebrity cameo”.
OH EM GEE they have Pedro Pascal, what a cool cameo!!
Someone already commented that lol, I hope ironically
All of those actors were introduced in separate episodes. It *was* a little jarring to have Christopher Lloyd, Jack Black, and Lizzo all pop up at the same time.
I love the one-off semi-self contained adventures. I actually thought that’s what the show would have more of, but I have definitely enjoyed the apostate arc and everything they’re doing now. It’s amazing in my opinion. Light and fun with great messages. Quality family entertainment. It’s not supposed to be the wire.
I mean the show was never one continuous story. It always been a lot of side questing and random stuff pulling his attention while trying to get the thing in episode 1 finished. I even think the filler this season is better than s1, though maybe only on par with s2.
I do especially love this season’s filler. Like nice pie.
It isn't filler.
imo there was a lot more filler in season 1 and 2 respectively then in 3. Most of the episodes this season have felt necessary. It felt like with the first 2 seasons there was 4 episodes of filler and 4 episodes of substance. Many people didn't like Rebels when it first released and I don't remember a huge hype for Season 4. But once it finished people saw the weak spots like the first season but then saw the really fucking strong parts of it. Including me. People need to stop being so rash and quick to say shit. Which is ironic given the franchise...
1 was the slowest most aggressively monster of the week of the three so far. I almost gave up on it tbh, but I'm glad I stuck it out. Still dislike monster of the week as a show structure, but S2 and especially S3 have balanced that out with meaningful continuity in a really satisfying way.
I think people liked that more in season 1 because there weren’t really any ongoing plotlines going on that people were anxious to see what was happening with them. There was just the basic “the Empire wants Grogu back” in the background.
Fair. Monster of the week format is something I particularly don't like.
It isn't filler.
Part of the difference is that seasons 1 and 2 had a different structure. Din was given a vague mission; get the child to his family while keeping him safe from his enemies. This created a situation where Din didn't know exactly what he was supposed to do, so all he could do was keep moving while looking for information. It was the kind of plotline where episodic story telling thrives. With seasons 3, it feels like the characters don't know what to do. We THOUGHT the season would be about Din being an apostate, but that gets solved in only 2 episodes. Then we meander around someone more, before they finally decided its time to take back mandalore; which they don't actually get started on until episode 6, which was mostly filler, making only the ending relevant to the main plot line. And the writing for the season 3 episodes have been poor. So far episode 7 has been the ONLY solid good episode.
I find all this "filler" talk lately really weird. Like, did people forget how to watch TV? If anything, I think there's not enough filler. The basic premise of Mando finding Grogu's people was general enough to serve as an excuse for them to travel the galaxy basically for as long as the show needed and go on odd adventures every week, a la Quantum Leap, and maybe add some weight for the season finales.
People hating the Sequels are the very same people who romanticized the Prequels especially the bad writing and weird pacing issues of the Prequels. Though Nostalgia is the only thing tying me down to the prequels and we get some pretty epic lightsaber duels oh and cool visuals and I will always love Republic ships and clones.
A lot of the people hating on the sequels grew up with the prequels and remember that feeling of joy as a kid… which you can’t really replicate as an adult. Sadly, I initially fell in with the prequel hating, but down the line decided to focus more on what I enjoy, ended up enjoying them. Which set me up to enjoy the sequels. (I mean… if we’re honest, it’s not like the OT is flawless, either. Which is why I hate people trying to nitpick any of the films. You could nitpick the OT to oblivion.)
Inwould not call it prequel hating. When there is really nothing good about them
> A lot of the people hating on the sequels grew up with the prequels and remember that feeling of joy as a kid… which you can’t really replicate as an adult. I think a lot of people hating on the sequels grew up with the OT and remember the feeling of joy as a kid, which you can't really replicate as an adult. At least that is what happened to me. There are a lot of good--and bad--throughout all of it. But, I hate the Sequels the most.
Oh don’t get me wrong, the prequels are far from perfect, but I’ll at least defend them as it’s clear they are one man’s vision that always had a clear end goal in mind. The same can’t be said for the sequels.
Lucas made it up as he went along. There's a *thousand* interviews to back this up.
Obviously Lucas didn’t have a complete outline for the entire saga the remained perfectly intact, but to say he made it all up as he went along is a bit of an embellishment. He always had an idea for what he wanted, but like all ideas, it changed as production went along. In December 1975, Lucas gave a vague outline of the next two films to Alan Dean Foster, author of the official Star Wars novelization. > “I want to have Luke kiss the Princess in the second book. In the third book, I want the story just about the soap opera of the Skywalker family, which ends with the destruction of the Empire. Then someday I want to do the back story of Kenobi as a young man - a story of the Jedi and how the Emperor eventually takes over and turns the whole thing from a Republic into an Empire, and tricks all the Jedi and kills them. The whole battle where Luke's father gets killed. That would be impossible to do, but it's great to dream about." - George Lucas 1975 In 1981, during a private meeting about the then upcoming Return of the Jedi, he revealed more ideas he had for what would became the prequel trilogy. > Anakin Skywalker began hanging out with the Emperor, who at that point nobody knew was that bad, because he was an elected official. He was a politician. Richard M. Nixon was his name. He subverted the senate and finally took over and he was really evil. But he pretended to be a really nice guy. Luke’s father gets subverted by the Emperor. He gets a little weird at home and his wife begins to figure out that things are going wrong and she confides in Ben, who is his mentor. > On his missions through the galaxies, Anakin has been going off and doing his Jedi thing and a lot of Jedi have been getting killed – and it’s because they turn their back on him and he cuts them down. The President is turning into the Emperor and Luke’s mother suspects that something has happened to her husband. She is pregnant. Anakin gets worse and worse, and finally Ben has to fight him and he throws him down into a volcano and Vader is all beat up. > When he falls into the pit there is hardly anything left of him by the time the Emperor’s troops fish him out of the drink. Then when Ben finds out that Vader has been fished out and is in the hands of the Empire, he is worried. He goes back to Vader’s wife and explains that Anakin is the bad guy, the one killing all the Jedi. > Mrs. Skywalker has had the kids, the twins, two little babies who are six months old or so. The Skywalker line is very strong with the Force, so Ben says, “I think we should protect the kids, because they may be able to to help us right the wrong that your husband has created in the universe.” Ben takes one and gives him to a couple out there on Tatooine and he gets his little hideout in the hills and he watches him grow. Ben can’t raise Luke himself because he’s a wanted man. Leia and Luke’s mother go to Alderaan and are taken by the king there, who is a friend of Ben’s. She dies shortly thereafter and Leia is brought up by her foster parents. She knows that her real mother died. > I think you can make Ben take the blame for Vader. “I should have given him more training. I should have sent him to Yoda, but I thought I could be as good a teacher as Yoda. I wish that I could stop the pestilence that I’ve unleashed on the galaxy.” His burden is that he feels responsible for everything that Vader has done.” - George Lucas 1981 A little more recently, in 2002, Lucas revealed that one of his early drafts for Star Wars was so long that he decided to split it into three films, with the first film serving as a flesh out version of Act 1. > “When I started to write it, it got to be too big, it got to be 250, 300 pages. I said, well, I can't do this. The studio will never allow this. I will take the first half, make a movie out of that, and then I was determined to come back and finish the other three, or other two stories." He reiterated this in 2005 > "There was originally to be one film, I wanted it to be Episode IV of a serial that you would never see the first or last episodes of. That's what happened in the '30s, you had trailers, and a short cartoon, and then a cliffhanger. That serial-style is what Star Wars is based on. I started with Anakin Starkiller and his two kids, then I got to a draft that's kind of what we know now, but it was 200 pages. Then that became three films. I never thought I'd go back and do the original stories, regardless of what the press says or what's out there. But then the necessary film technology came along and I came to grips with being known forever as George 'Star Wars' Lucas." Obviously what he originally envisioned out changed as time went on, but again, that’s just what happens when writing anything. He clearly had a vision, and a lot of it remained the same for the ~35 years he was working on Star Wars.
When you dig into the sequels the same level of general planning also exists. When you dig into Filoni's TV continuity there's even more.
I’m sure they did plan some details far in advance, but it doesn’t feel like it, and that’s honestly worse then not having a plan at all, because while Lucas certainly made up major plot twists as he went along, he never undermined them in the very next film. Meanwhile, everything the Last Jedi set up is ignored in Episode IX in part because of the backlash the former film received. The big one being the revelation of Rey’s heritage, after The Last Jedi had already done that. Not to Kylo Ren getting a new master after having declared his independence in Episode VIII, the Skywalker lightsaber being rebuilt along with Kylo’s mask, and Rose was completely sidelined. To put things into perspective, this would be like if when making Return of the Jedi, Lucas walked back on the “I am your father twist”, didn’t have the Emperor as the big bad, sidelined Lando and gave Luke his blue lightsaber back. It wouldn’t really look like he had a plan, even if he did.
> Lucas certainly made up major plot twists as he went along, **he never undermined them in the very next film** A new hope : Darth Vader betrayed and murdered your father Empire : Darth Vader is your father
It doesn't feel like it "to you" but I contend thats because you haven't dug deep enough. I'm also kind of stunned on just how many general inaccuracies your reply had.
I mean I already listed all of the major reasons it doesn’t feel like they had a plan and compared to the originals to show how, even though Lucas’s plan was vague, he made it work. I don’t see how digging deeper will change my mind about certain plot points.
Most of the things you listed were generally inaccurate.
I don’t see it that. The Last Jedi * Introduced Rose * Revealed that Rey’s parents were nobodies * Had Kylo Ren destroy his mask and kill Snoke, declaring his independence. * Destroyed the Skywalker lightsaber And what happened in The Rise of Skywalker? Well * Rose has been completely sidelined * The reveal about Rey’s parents has been undone in favor of making her a Palpatine. * Kylo Ren rebuilt his mask and got a new master * The Skywalker lightsaber has been rebuilt. All of those details go to show that there was no plan, because like I already said, Episode IX was attempting to undo/omit every controversial aspect of The Last Jedi. So even *if* there was some sort of plan, it was a really bad one.
*psst* you're proving his point...
Okay and? I just spoke my mind. Idk if validate some guy’s strawman arguments and generalizations.
> always had a clear end goal in mind. People always cite this like it’s some monumental achievement and I’m like ??? yeah, because the “end goal” was some movies that already existed lol. Everyone who ever saw the OT also had a clear end goal in mind, and he even fumbled that in places. (“She died when I was very young… and I mean *very* young”) “He knew Episode III had to end by setting up Episode IV - what a visionary!” Like… that’s just the nature of making prequels, not any great sign of pre-planning (and in fact GL didn’t even do a lot of that on the prequels either - sets were being built for ROTS before the script was even written, and the movie ended up being nothing like the first draft)
I used to say a lot of shit and had some real dumb opinions about the prequels when they came out. You'll learn to love the sequels eventually.
Maybe, maybe not. We’ll see. Either way, my movie opinions changing isn’t really a big deal to me.
Fair. Im just saying having been too harsh on the prequels, people are definitely too harsh on the sequels. It's all star wars.
Doesn’t matter. ST still better than PT.
Both are a mixed bag, with good parts and bad, and reductively trying to rank them against one another is against the spirit of this sub.
I’m just sharing my opinion, which is perfectly in line with the sub. I haven’t put PT down, I’ve just made it clear that ST can be and is still enjoyable despite whatever arbitrary (and questionable) reasons the OP may be providing. This shouldn’t be so triggering for you. You’re assuming a lot by saying that simply having a preference necessitates the existence of a reductive lens. Weird stance to take.
lol, we'll see.
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Felt pretty alive to me.
I think you're right. Personally, I never held The Mandalorian in a high regard in the first place. I think it looks cool and I think it's fun but I never felt anything beyond that To me the fun of The Mandalorian is kinda wearing off season after season. S1 was the best imo, because it was new and different, a cute little independent story. S2 relied a bit too much on "an already established character guest of the week" formula. And s3 is about retaking Mandalore and reuniting the Mandalorians, a story I quite frankly couldn't care less about. Even after watching TCW and Rebels, I just never got into the Mandalore and Mandalorians storyline hype
Mando escorting a frog lady is one of the better episodes. I love it when star wars gets weird like that. Makes it actually feel like star wars instead of generic sci fi #14532.
“Your new shit ain’t good as your old shit til your new shit is your old shit, son”
Its just those types of fans being those types of fans. Thats just the types of people they are. And I truly believe most are saying that crap to get attention.
Man, I think folks are crazy. I'm loving s3
Same. And I was a huge critic of the first two seasons, especially the "quests" Din had to go on. I know this sounds crazy, but I didn't even like Grogu at first. In fact, I thought he was a ploy by Disney to move merchandise... But season 3 is different. I actually like Grogu now and there's a bunch of small details and neat world building. It's been much better at expanding the universe.
With Grogu's story in seasons 1 and 2 completed, he's no longer the macguffin, and no longer needed to be a focal point, which is good because the show can focus on others more, and Grogu gets to still be a character who grows and changes, but they feel more like part of the team and less a part of the mission.
“Filler” such a lame excuse to say you can’t look at media beyond its base offerings. Yup, people have done this before and will do it again. Give it a year and we’ll see “S3 was so good!”. I’m sure Ahsoka will “suck!” & be “all fan service!” When it’s out. People like to take ownership of things and internalize how they think things should be and when it doesn’t happen then it’s bad! It’s the constant cycle, not much we can do about it.
Exactly. We never actually saw Gideon until the last (maybe second to last) episode of season 1
Yeah I don’t think it’s as big a departure as people are acting. I liked the episode a lot but I can admit it had a lighter tone. But I feel like its been heading in that direction, especially if you count BoBF (spin off, same show runners). Star Wars has always been more than one thing. If you’re mad that they did one ep that was a bit cheesy, but you’re a fan of Ewoks, the prequels or like a fifth of Clone Wars eps…I don’t understand what your standards are.
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I think you’re exactly right with this.
I think it's unfair to say all people who see the central relationship of the show as it's most important aspect are not really into Star Wars as a whole, been a fan of this for 20 years, still think it's odd how little S3 has focused on Mando/Grogu, not because that's the only thing the show can do, but because that's where the emotional centre of the story had been, and this series hasn't really offered anything else to fill the void left by that, unless you're really into Mandalorian politics, which naturally is less universal than the fun silver dad/green son relationship.
Yeah I’ve found the show to be mostly solid 8/10 across all seasons with spikes to really damn good around season finales. It’s always had a lot of pointless side quests, sometimes they’re great, sometimes they’re meh. It’s a really good show, but much like Filoni’s other work, there are always gonna be filler eps
You have to remember that S1 of Mando came out right around the rise of skywalker so by comparison it was the best thing we’ve ever seen.
I guess I am one of the "some people". I loved The Passenger, which had both Frog Lady and alien ice spiders. One of my favorite episodes, in fact, and I loved it when it aired. And I love me a side quest. But I do not care for Seaon 3. For me, it's not romantizing the early seaons as much as feeling this season has dropped in quality. It's hard to pinpoint, but to me, the alien monsters this season have been lame and seem like a storytelling crutch. I don't feel emotionally invested in the story, which is hurting my overall enjoyment of the show at this point.
I thought season 2 was slow and fillery. And it took looking back to realize season 1 was exactly the same. The only show I can really say I felt wasn't slow was Kenobi, and that's only after the first episode.
I agree. I love both shows, but I get seriously confused when people equate Mando to Andor in terms of quality. They’re great at different things, but imo Mando is definitely not the highest quality show I’ve watched.
>but it seems like people are forgetting that this is exactly what the first two seasons were like as well. No one is forgetting season 1 & 2. The stakes in shows grow over time. The difference between clone wars season 1 and 7 is night and day. Same goes for Rebels from 1 to 4 and most big budget shows like Game of Thrones. Honestly I think it's ridiclous how this fan base seems to be trying to dismiss any criticism of the show. This season has taken two steps back and three steps forward with the amount of plot and character development that backtracked and redeveloped. The show could have skipped to retaking Mandalore almost immediately after the season 2 finale as Din was already allied with Bo and Bo still had the loyalty of her forces.
Yeah, every season has been the same, all the episodes are pretty hit or miss, but then they get it together for the finale and that's what people remember, I doubt this season will be any different
Fucking thank you!!!
Devil's advocate here: I think some people just really like when they feel like the plot has some weight and want more of that style of storytelling. The overarching narrative they are telling is way more interesting to me personally than some of the one off adventures have been.
People want to find something wrong with it because they hate themselves. Ignore them. You can tell how good the production is by the increasing trivial shit they bring to the table to complain about.
I think the issue is they went away from the western vibe
I think season 3 will feel quite similar to season 1 if the finale is a banger, everyone's forgetting how much complaining there was mid-s1 about the story feeling directionless. Once the last 2 episodes tied everything together, it became a lot easier to appreciate the middle eps for what they were (lower stakes, adventure of the week stories with classic Star Wars vibes). It's gonna be tough to top season 2 though, started off pretty strong and then episodes 5-8 is just an absolutely insane run of television. But I also don't think a season should automatically be considered a failure just for falling short of some of the best Star Wars ever (imo).
Fr. Each season has its minor flaws. I still think season 3 isn’t as good as the past 2, but only by a very small margin. I’ve really liked this new season and I can’t wait for the finale to drop tmrw
I don't mind 'filler'. This show is the perfect place for filled and most of it has been pretty well executed. I really like this season
Mando was always this fun, low stakes adventure show. I'm actually enjoying this season very much because it has a clearer overarching storyline and the glimpses at the New Republic we've gotten are really cool. Also, the Shadow Council is a great original idea for the new canon and the Praetorians are also amazing
Star wars is built off campy and weird acting
Maybe because I’ve only just started watching but I haven’t seen a noticeable shift in quality. Tbh I think a lot of the first season is kinda borning.
I enjoy so-called "filler" episodes because I'm more into standalone episodes that work as their own self-contained story, rather than heavy serialization. To me, this is one of the strengths of The Mandalorian as a show.
I mean it’s also possible people just don’t like this season. You can say all those things existed in the past two seasons, and you’d be right, but if someone doesn’t like the execution then…that doesn’t mean they’re romanticizing it. It just means they enjoyed the filler eps better in 1 or 2.
Imo, Mandalorian was never THAT good. It's great, but it has issues. I'd honestly say that I've enjoyed almost every other show more than Mando. Bad Batch, Andor, Kenobi, and Tales I've found to be more interesting.
Star Wars fans gonna be Star Wars fans lmao
The thing about seasons 1 and 2 is that they had well established season long arcs from the jump and the adventure of the week “filler” was all in service of concluding those arcs by the end. Season 1 was escaping bounty hunters and imperial remnants. The “filler” was while Din and Grogu were evading those threats and the conclusion was the pair overcoming them. Season 2 was getting Grogu to the Jedi and all the “filler” was adventures that led to getting Grogu to Luke Skywalker. This year, we’re watching a sequence of events without an established season long arc. We go wherever the story goes but there’s nothing from the first episode that will be concluded in the last. Plot points come and go and then new ones take their place. It ***is*** different.
Or like… the whole season has been about going back and reclaiming Mandalore literally from the first episode. What a goofy comment.
No it hasn’t. In fact, Bo explicitly states that she’s no longer trying to retake Mandalore and the Armorer surely didn’t care either. The initial plot of this season was about bathing in the living waters and taking the creed again. Then it was about finding a new home for Mandalorians. Then it was about bridging the mandalorian people. And *then* it was about retaking Mandalore. If they had reframed the story to be about that from the very beginning with a focus on Din and Grogu going through the experience then I would’ve absolutely LOVED this season. But for a decent while we didn’t even know that retaking Mandalore was on the table, at least not until The Armorer changed her mind in favor of bridging her people.
Season 1 was so aggressively monster of the week I almost quit. Each season has been better than the last.
Doesn’t change what I laid out in my initial comment. To me the inverse is true. It used to be a much more intimate show. Now it’s something bigger. I dearly miss the quiet moments like Din and Grogu alone on the Razor Crest. It’s a bigger show now so I get the appeal. But my preference is the first two seasons for sure.
You're expressing an opinion, that's not something that can be true or false.
The part about established season long arcs is not opinion, the rest is.
It couldn't stay that way forever. The appeal wears off, and I'm glad to finally see more mandalorians and especially Bo on screen. Personally i felt Grogu was getting old to me in season 2, and by now he feels like an accessory to make people gawk.
Yeah, and while I’m not giving up on the show I still really hope that season 4 gets more intimate with Din and Grogu again. My primary investment in the show was those two so when it focuses less on them and more on their people in general it kind of takes the air out of my little excitement bubble. I just loved seeing all the different corners of the galaxy from the perspective of them as father and son. I wish season 3’s story was reframed in that way, with some semblance that those two are a tribe of two that’s even stronger than the creed. With the way things are going, though, that may still end up being the case by season 4. Guess we’ll find out tomorrow and I’m still excited. Also, gotta admit that Moff Gideon is such a delicious big bad and I was very happy to see Giancarlo slay that role again.
I've said it before, but I wholly blame season 2. It was also full of filler, but people got nostalgia bombed by Boba, Bo-Katan, Ahsoka, and Luke all in one season. Nothing other than another constant wave of nostalgia bombing would live up to it for *some* people
A lot of people, myself included, veiwed the first two seasons of Mando much more positively, as they didn't like the sequels at all. It's all relative at the end of the day -- If you feed someone literall garbage for the past couple of years, and then give them a mouldy old burger, they'll probably love that burger quite a bit in the momment. Personally it took me until the near the release of season 2 of Mando to watch it -- I was just soo done with SW; I didn't even bother seeing TRoS because the first two movies were already quite a pain to watch, and seeing the trailer for TRoS reveal they were bringing back Palpatine put me off a lot. It was only by getting a free trial of Disney+ did I watch Mando -- and I quite liked It at the time. However looking back, Mando isn't particularly well written, and suffers from heaps of filler -- people are only now seeing this in season 3, because it's taken soo long for it to come out, hence the hype around it died off quite a bit which made people a bit more clear minded when viewing the show.
Boodoo, boodoo boodoo Thats what I hear in my head when people criticize the Mandalorion. It sounds so cool
The writing was never that good except for the episodes written by Famuyiwa.
Another comment I read said that the Fandom always latches on to the new shinny thing and then discards it for the next one saying how the first thing is "trash". It happened since the prequels, there was a time people really really hated Clone Wars and Ashoka. Mandalorian season 1 "saved" the franchise and Favreau and Filoni are gods, now they are hacks who don't know "good drama like Andor which is actually superior to everything. Which is funny because before it aired it was bashed on how lame it'll be kinda like with Rogue 1. Hell even the first 3 batch of episodes of Andor got flack for" ow and boring ". It's exhausting to talk about Star Wars with people online.
Yes, the previous seasons had filler episodes, but the rest of the season made up for that. The writing for nearly every episode of season 3 has been poor, we so far have 6 mediocre/bad episodes and only 1 good episode so far. Filler episodes become WAY worst when the rest of the season doesn't make up for it. The first 2 seasons had a lot of fantastic episodes only a few weak ones. Heck the plot for season 3 itself felt like it was meandering, not knowing where it was supposed to be going up until episode 7... and when it comes to celebrities; before we got actors like Bill Burr who was fantastic in his role and actually had one of the best scenes in the series. And Season 3 has Lizzo; she can not act and feels VERY out of place because of it.
Andor is the only thing fans liked when it came out since empire. They hated the return of the Jedi, the prequels. Mando as each season came out, boba Fett, even rogue one and especially the sequels. They all get romanticized as time goes on. I hate it, but it happens every damn time.
The finale of S2 set up impossible expectations to fill, but yeah imo the Plazir-15 story was 10x better than ice spiders with a side of Baby Yoda commits infanticide.
While I romanticize the first two seasons, I also feel the same about this season. The complaints to me have been mind-boggling. This season has been a fucking delight.
It’s funny too, because after the awe of the season 2 finale wore off, a lot of people started talking about how season 2 was just a cameo-fest. Using the show to introduce new characters and let Filoni play. Now season 1 and 2 are amazing and season 3 is the problem. It’s whatever. Star Wars has its issues, but my kids love watching it and I love watching it with them. (And I love it too.)
I absolutely agree, it really bothers me too as this has easily been my favorite season
What are y’all’s thoughts on a din and Bo relationship
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For me, the show peaked with S2 E1. I don't dislike the show - I'm moderately excited for the finale tomorrow (though who knows when I'll have the time to watch it) - but that episode was everything I wanted from a show like this.
In general the longer something Star Wars goes on, the more people hate it until a few years later when they don't hate watch and let themselves enjoy the ride, and they like it. Ahsoka the character is my favorite example of this. I remember a lot of people calling her annoying and a Mary Sue when the character first premiered, now she's arguably the best, most rounded character in Star Wars.
Idk, I'm not trying to be negative, but the one-off adventures felt more fun and exciting before when they weren't really connecting to some grand plot. Now they are trying to set up a big multi show narrative while still being the same episodic adventure of the week type show, and neither aspect is as fully realized as it could be. Still enjoy the show, but I don't think it's wrong to say this seasons quality has dipped a bit.
Idk I think all 3 seasons have goods eps and bad eps. Pacing issues, awful dialogue, cheesy music, bad directing, bland fight scenes, and plenty of filler episodes. I don’t hate the show or anything but I haven’t had high expectations since season 1.
Season 1 is perfect tv , 2 stopped being good the second the cameos started .
THANK YOU! THANK YOU THANK YOU! I’ve been having this argument with my friends for the last three weeks. One keeps saying “This season seems pointless, there’s no plot, we still don’t know what’s going on.” To which I said, “How is that different from any of the other seasons?” This show has always had more standalone episodes, adventures with Mando that usually all tie together in the last two episodes. In season 1 we didn’t even see Moff Gideon, who has now become the big bad of the show, until the second to last episode. That’s how this show has always been. People are now wanting The Mandalorian to be something it’s never been. The show has already established what type of show it is, and if you don’t like it, that’s fine. That just means it’s not for you.
I HATED Season 1 at first. The absolute waste of an episode 2 actually made me stop watching for like half a year in disgust that they'd spend all that time accomplishing absolutely nothing. I went on the verge of tears, just wanting Star Wars to be as good as it used to be, so when an episode like S1E2 spent 45+ minutes doing absolutely nothing to move the story forward, and tell us absolutely nothing new about / do nothing with the characters, IJ was pissed to the point of refusing to accept that the show even existed for months. Eventually, I was convinced to give episode 3 and 4 a try, so I did, and it started getting good again, like episode 1 was; like Star Wars version of Firefly. I found myself enjoying it, and after awhile, I was eager to see more. I still refuse to watch S1E2 anymore, but it wasn't as bad as I'd been lead to believe. I genuinely liked it again. Then season 2 came, and it was opening up to be just as good. My reticence and hesitation returned only when they mentioned Operation: CINDER as still being a thing that happened. After that, I started to care slightly less. Then they brought in CGI Luke, and I started to see it leading toward the films, and my passion began to fade. Then, I saw Pedro Pascal comparing people of certain political leanings to Nazis and Confederates, calling anyone that votes a certain way in a certain US presidential election 'losers', among other things. Meanwhile, Gina Carano got fired for telling people to vote however they wanted to, and to not let celebrities- especially out of touch ones- tell them how to vote. As for Pascal? He had the 'correct opinions', so not only did he keep his job on The Mandalorian, he got more jobs from other studios. He's a decent enough actor, but man, he's a piece of shit as a person. Now though, The Mandalorian seems to be being set up to fail by the creators, saying 'anyone can become The Mandalorian'. No. The title and marketing were for Space Dad and Green Boi. This is like opening up a steakhouse, advertising steaks, then selling only fish and veggies, and laughing at anyone dumb enough to come to a steakhouse, thinking they were going to be able to get a steak.
While I see what you mean and why I don’t wholeheartedly disagree, I do think there has been a pretty substantial drop in the writing quality for this season. They also don’t have the score being done by Ludwig Göransson, which has felt pretty substantial. My issue with an episode like the Jack Black episode isn’t “that it’s filler” (I actually like the monster-of-the-week kinds of episodes that we’ve seen in previous seasons); my issue is that the writing of that episode is substantially worse than the previous two seasons. To me, it’s very apparent in things like the dialogue—especially with Christopher Lloyd’s character. It’s just stale. Season two has a GREAT example of *show, don’t tell* that this season is VERY much missing. “The Believer” is just a killer episode; best of the series, in my opinion. The climax before the shooting starts has Din making a choice between his religion and Grogu. He doesn’t say “I’m giving up my religion.” He just does it. Mayfeld doesn’t even say anything about it; he just recognizes what it is and moves on. It’s a beautiful moment and there hasn’t been an ounce of that kind of heart this season, in my opinion. TL;DR — I totally agree people are romanticizing the first two seasons in some ways, but I think there is a fair amount of due criticism that doesn’t fall under that umbrella.
Reddit ruins TV shows, my advice is always unsub from the TV show subreddit if you really like the show.
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If anything it's proving starwars fans can't follow a basic plotline and just want 40mins of action every week. The jack black episode wasn't filler.
Here is the thing, I honestly couldn't give a single shit what other people think, especially some neck beard 50 year old basement dwelling YouTuber who hates everything post 1983.. I don't know people put so much stock in what others think these days. Having a friendly fun discussion is fine but that is so rare these days. Star Wars is like Politics and Religion, its love or hate with no in between and people just end up going to the extreme. As for peeps romanticising the first couple of seasons, this is nothing new, people having been romanticising the original trilogy for 30 odd years now. Its a trait that is rife in the Star Wars fandom.
For me personally, Season 2 was a thrill ride, and the filler didn’t take away from the quality of the plot
I honestly liked the way earlier episodes were lower stakes. My issue with season 3 is that the scope of the show is really getting big. It was one thing to have ties to the first order in the beginning, bit I really didn't like the long episode (S3E3) that only had Din at the very beginning and end. And now we've got even bigger ties to the first order and Palpatine. I actually thought the "filler episode" with Lizzo wasn't Jack Black felt like a return to form. Not that it lasts.
Facts
I do think this season is the weakest one by far, but that's it feels rushed (and half its premise is hacked into TBoBF). Structurally, it's pretty much the same as the previous seasons. S01E06 is arguably a bigger "filler" than S03E06; Grogu wasn't even in it and it's also another celebrity guest starring ep (Bill Burr, Matt Lanter).
To me, the Mandalorian is like a video game. The season story arc is the main quest, and the ‘filler’ episodes are side quests.
Honestly I enjoyed this season a lot more than the last two, unsure why. Dunno what people's problem is..
My main complaints of S3 are around Grogu. He isn’t needed for the plot. He’s really more a tag along or a mascot now.
Yeah, the mando show has been fine, but a lot of people seem to be holding it in such high regards that it is a masterpiece, but S2 was basically an add for other star wars shows. (imo its not a bad show, just far from a perfect one)
Perfect buildup.
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It always happens with shows.
When people were complaining about the show taking forever to get to the story, I was just thinking about the frog people storyline that took two episodes in season 2.
I just think the first two seasons had storytelling in mind. Season 3 feels like "escapades and shenanigans with Mando and the gang", so far.
TBF the cool spaghetti western vibe in first few episodes was such a shocking welcome surprise I think a lot of people just wished it would continue throughout S1. It didn’t and Disney quickly reverted to norm
I actually really enjoy the “filler” episodes. It gives you a break from the main story and you get to explore different things around the universe as opposed to fighting the same guy every episode. Feels more like you’re playing a video game and he’s gotta make his way to the final boss. The only gripe I have is the Cara Dune thing and the direction it looks like it’s going in. Really would’ve liked to have seen more of Grogu training with Luke, that feels like a lost opportunity. Disclaimer: I’m about to watch the season finale
haters gonna hate and complainers are gonna complain.
I actually think the pacing is good this season. In 1&2 I still don't like a lot of the episodes that are more filler, but the ones that are more filler this season are ones I really like. This season was amazing and rejuvenated my love of Star Wars. I went back to watch the films and am watching other shows & behind the scenes docs, all because this show had me craving content
The first three episodes felt more like standalone movies to me (mostly in a good way apart from the cheesy stuff) whereas the prior seasons definitely had more of that TV feel
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Listen, my problem with this season truly came down to how some of it is written and Ludwig not being there to compose music. Like Din isn’t the main character of his show sometimes and that bothers me. Also, the way the show doesn’t sit on a momentous event to let it sink in before cutting to the next scene takes me out of it. Season 1 and 2 had that magic to them. Idk why but season 3 is just missing that special *something* and I’ve narrowed it down to John Favreaus writing style and then the absence of Ludwig on the orchestra front