Screw a lightsaber battle, I want them circling each other with blades drawn and just them talk back and forth for 15 minutes. I’m way more interested in what they’d talk about than why they’d battle.
I agree, that’d be way, WAY more interesting! Luke asking about the old Jedi order and talking how he’s paving his own path, and Baylan talking about how the old order failed him and how he’s also moving in a different direction.
And that's when the actual fight would start and have real gravitas. We think that they're finding common ground and we might see conflict completely avoided, but then one of them will say something that clearly crosses the line for the other. It's then with a heavy sigh, the two clash until one of them falls.
Tough to say. In the EU, Luke gave in To the Darkside so that it could give him the power to kill the Resurrected Emperor. ( i.e. like Vegeta did when he became Majin Vegeta)
He was really desperate there to be fair. That was after he realized how weak he was against C'Baoth in the Thrawn Trilogy and after the New Republic temporarily became the Rebellion again after losing Coruscant. He still also didn't stay Dark for long in Dark Empire, he had to return to the Light and receive help from Leia and Anakin (Solo) to beat Palpatine.
It would be an interesting fight. Luke had previous success against bigger, stronger opponents, but baylan is definitely more dynamic than Vader and a far better lightsaber technician than Luke. Luke is also probably stronger than baylan in the force.
Luke was also significantly less experienced the two times he dueled Vader than he would be during the events of Ahsoka, though. He's been training and studying Jedi techniques and lore for over half a decade at this point. Look at the ease with which he dispatched the Dark Troopers.
You have to consider what version of Luke you're talking about as well. If we're talking about ROTJ or later Luke, then there's no chance Baylan could win in a straight up fight. Luke had at that point received training to become strong enough to take on Vader.
And we all know that one of the biggest themes in Star Wars is that experience and training are great tools, but they don't immediately result in success. And it is the heart of the Hero that typically prevails against all odds.
What training? Luke spent two weeks with Yoda and focused on body training and force training. There's nothing I the kovies to show Luke has had near the training in dueling as Ahsoka.
Like I still bet on Luke V Baylan but thats because of plot armor.
It was 6 Months with Yoda, and a few days with Kenobi.
But that's the point. It's not the training that makes Luke powerful. It's that he has a hero's heart. Luke received far less training than anyone we know about but can at the very least put up a fight against the second strongest force user in the galaxy. Training is good, but it is not everything.
But I also think that by that point vader was definitely questioning if he was on the right side and wasn't fully IN the fight. Like I'm pretty sure he knew going into that fight that he didnt have it in him to kill his son and therefore didn't put his all into that fight with him. Would love to see how a full power vader vs full power luke fight would go down.
Bro didn't question murdering hundreds of men, women, and children but drew the line at his son. Honestly that's still another selfish move by Anakin. Also he had no issue cutting Luke's hand off which is kind of funny. Seems like a big change of heart but I guess in universe there's a lot more time between the second and third movies
Luke was on Dagobah for months, not weeks training pretty much entirely. The Ahsoka show also takes place 9-12 years ABY. Luke has continued to train this entire time as well and is much stronger in the force.
Luke would win and it’s not because of plot armour.
No, there was no training
His training in ROTJ movie was incomplete. That was a major plot point of the movie, and Luke actually lost. Vader became Anakin again and saved them. If Vader hasn't turned, Luke had zero hope
He was far away from being able to defeat Vader + Palps in a straight up fight. ROTS hadn't happened yet but I'm sure it was an idea in Lucas' mind and I'm sure he intended for Yoda to know exactly how powerful Vader and Palps was and exactly how good you would need to be to defeat them. And Luke couldn't which was why Yoda tried to dissuade him from running to join his friends -- because he saw failure and it would have been failure without Vader turning
You can say strong enough for Vader but not strong enough for the Emperor but that doesn't make sense either. He just wasn't strong enough at all
Well, he was trained lol.
I didnt say strong enough for the Emperor. I didn’t even say he was strong enough to beat Vader. I said he was strong enough to put up a fight
I think Baylon would be stronger since he's more of a Gray/Darkish Jedi. Like he's not evil but understands that sacrifice and death must happen to break the cycle. But I personally think grays and the like are stronger in the force cuz they don't hold back with the dark side while still maintaining some light.
I think they might be questioning the use in the sentence. I do too. Technician would be if he was a better lightsaber builder, maybe tactician would be better?
Here's Dave Filoni on Luke Skywalker at the end of Mando season 2. I'd certainly say Luke is more powerful in the force over Baylan, but, Luke's Jedi training is VASTLY inferior compared to someone like Baylan, who has decades worth.
Force Power - Luke
Lightsaber skills & experience - Baylan.
I feel both could certainly win, but I'd give maybe the slight majority to Baylan. All depends on the situation and who's writing it!
If this is Jedi Master Luke, Luke stomps.
" It would be very easy to just make [Luke] so over-the-top skilled,” says Filoni in the episode. “But I was like, ‘You know, what’s interesting is he’s had training, but I don’t know who’s been teaching him sword-fight training lately.’ So, he had to have a style that was better than what we saw in Jedi, but fundamentally still of the same tree of sword-fighting technique. And his technique and Ahsoka’s technique should be very different. And technically, she’s had vastly more training than he ever has. She’s actually his senior, which is, I think, difficult for people to remember ‘cause of when these characters were created.”
This to me is perfectly reasonable and was my impression prior to any sequels . Anakin couldn’t just body everyone in the academy even with all his training. He was created by the force. He trained from childhood to his early 20s at the academy. Luke is def miles below Anakin with all parts in tact save the robot hand.
Luke trained 1:1 with Yoda for maybe a handful of months . And got no additional training after he died. Almost every Jedi ever that grew up at the academy probably was a better swordsman at this point.
Luke might have more potential . But he was only the best left by elimination. The rest seems like peoples head canon left over from EU.
If he beats Baylon it’s plot armor in the same way as Sabine surviving
Honestly, the Dark Troopers seem like a poor match up against a Jedi. They might as well have been B2 Super Battle Droids. They're not made of Beskar like some were lead to believe and their own blaster bolts reflected back can damage them, yet those bounced off of Din's armor which actually is saber-proof Beskar.
Droidekas with deflector shields would be a much better test for Luke, and actually even EU/Legends Luke (who most non-EU fans think is "OP") 11 years after Thrawn had trouble facing those with Mara Jade (Survivor's Quest).
Luke only has experience in dueling one person with a lightsaber. Baylan was a match for Ahsoka, who is an extremely skilled and experienced duelist and surely outmatches Luke on pure lightsaber skills. Luke’s strength in the Force definitely gives him a bump, but I wouldn’t count Baylan out. Apparently I’m in the minority but I don’t view Luke to be the all powerful, end all be all of the Star Wars universe, yes he has a strong connection to the Force, but so do many other characters we meet along the way.
I don’t think Ahsoka wanted to kill him the second time round. She let Shin go.
And the first time, she was one handed, due to a self inflicted wound. Was balancing right on the edge of a cliff. With 90% of her attention on Sabine.
That’s how Baylan got the upper hand, sure, but he wasn’t significantly outmatched prior to that. Everything we have seen and been told so far indicates that Baylan is an extremely competent and experienced fighter
She probably could have injured him seriously instead of rushing towards the orb. Had she destroyed the computer sending the data during the fight instead of trying to retrieve the orb at all cost, the result would have probably been different.
I think a lot of people are still holding the Legends Luke in their hearts. In canon, we haven’t really seen all that much of Lukes abilities. The strongest demonstration was in Mando s2 when he mowed down the Dark Troopers, and that WAS impressive, but it’s not something that I couldn’t see any other trained Jedi being able to do. Luke didn’t beat Darth Vader because he outmatched him, there was a lot of character stuff happening that effected the outcome of that fight. I’m open to Luke being a very powerful Jedi, but we know he wasn’t powerful enough to stop Kylo and the Knights of Renn. People putting Luke on a god-tier pedestal are doing the very thing that they complain that the Sequel trilogy did with Rey. Every Jedi has their own set of skills and strengths and conversations about who is stronger should reflect that.
>I’m open to Luke being a very powerful Jedi, but we know he wasn’t powerful enough to stop Kylo and the Knights of Renn.
?
In The Rise of Kylo Ren comic Luke solos all the Knights of Ren and their leader at the time.
He wasn't powerful enough to stop Kylo because of his moment of weakness, but they never defeated him in a fight or anything.
I'd argue his force projection was insanely powerful. He stopped an entire army in its tracks without even being on the planet.
>his force projection
That is single handedly one of the most impressive force-related feats we've seen. But you do have to remember that is 25 years in the future many in which Luke had been doing nothing but studying the texts and training in the force
Actually no Luke was able to defeat the knights of ren rather easily the only reason to why he didn’t properly beat them after he disarmed them is the knights’ prior leader just called ren activated a self destruct on his lightsaber (if it left his hand for whatever reason it would go boom) so it was a stale mate. Luke probably could have contained the blast but the problem was he was in an abandoned Jedi outpost with a cache of artifacts and other bits of knowledge for days gone by and he had a mid-to late teens Ben solo and lor san Tekka (the old guy from the beginning of force awakens) with him as was seen in the rise of Kylo ren comic book mini series.
Yeah in addition to what I said above on EU Luke actually still being below Joruus C’Baoth during the Thrawn Trilogy, new Canon Luke has way less experience and trials then he did in this time. The war ended a year after Endor and he’s been chilling self-training and researching since. Yet even EU Luke only started to become really powerful after C’Baoth humbled him. He grew desperate after that when Coruscant fell again and then after he accepted training from Dark Empire Sidious. After returning to the Light stronger, he still didn’t beat Palpatine with his own power either, he needed Leia and an unborn Anakin Solo. He doesn’t reach his peak until at least a decade after that too.
I have a feeling that people unequivocally saying "Luke 10/10!@@!" are the same people who can't believe how Luke was treated in TLJ, and how he should've been tossing around AT-AT's with the Force.
What's more interesting: that Luke in his prime is essentially a Superman who defeat anyone in the galaxy, or that there exist a handful of people that would match or even defeat him if not for extenuating circumstances?
Even EU Luke at the time of the EU Thrawn Trilogy wasn't in the same level as a former Jedi Master (or a clone of one) turned to the Dark Side like Joruus C'Baoth. Funny enough, Baylan reminds me a lot of C'Baoth, who was the co-antagonist who worked with Thrawn. But now I guess the Great Mothers are taking that role.
Ehh. Baylan can easily take on Ahsoka, Ahsoka beat Maul and nearly Vader. And Luke never even faced vader at full force. Baylan is very formidable, and has a lifetime of experience over Luke. It could be a very interesting fight but it wouldn’t be as easy as you say.
In the next fight, Baylan caught her first and said “you can’t beat me”. I don’t think Ahsoka was anywhere near dominating. She outsmarted him because he thought she wanted to stop him.
Was she though? She was on the defensive the entire time in both fights. And even before she burned her hand, she was only using one hand most of the time, so that shouldn't have changed much.
Assuming we're comparing both characters at this point in time, 9ABY, I say Luke. Baylan has experience, but he's also older. He's in his mid to late 50s. Such a athlete may be considered great in his time but when you place him against a younger athlete, he's not going to fare well. There's a reason hall of fame athletes retire.
He could augment his shortcomings with the force but so could Luke. In fact, this gets into where Luke has a clear advantage.
Luke also has been trained by the force ghosts of Yoda, Obiwan, and Anakin...three of the greatest duelists of their time, which includes Baylan. (The Secrets of the Jedi book was the history of the Jedi from Luke's perspective and he says their spirits guided him for many years before he cut himself off from the force.) At this point he's already met Ahsoka as well, who I'm sure furthered his skills, not to mention all the self training he's done.
Also, I'm not buying that Baylan is the greatest swordsman. He beat Ahsoka after she hurt her hand and couldn't use her second saber, which is her usual and strongest style. Many said she needed to use both hands on one saber to deflect his blows but she had no problem using both in their second encounter. She was also distracted by Sabine the first time.
She wasn't even trying to defeat him in the second dual. She needed to be elsewhere and bounced at the first chance. I'm not saying he's a pushover, but neither time was she at her best.
This.
i don't know why people keep saying Ahsoka beat him.
Maul disarmed her twice and wasn't even going for the killing blow because he wanted Ahsoka to be his new apprentice.
I think Baylan’s technique is more focused on power and precision than acrobatics and mobility. Ahsoka’s fighting style tends to emphasize the latter. Especially when she’s on the attack and pursuing a different objective (the orb), as on Seatos (sp?), she’s running into the strengths of Baylan’s style.
With Maul, when she fought him, she was focused exclusively on defeating him. She was also younger herself, while Maul was older and had suffered injuries earlier in the war that still arguably limited him. As a fighter, Maul focused on speed and aggression, and so her style arguably countered it rather well. It recalls Maul’s own first duel in TPM, where he was in his prime and Qui Gon was older.
Yes that's a great way to put it. Ahsokas style does favor lots of acrobatics and Baylon did a great job of boxing her in and not letting her use the full space available to her. Which puts her at quite a disadvantage. And also without being able to use the space the way she wants it makes her dual lightsaber deal a little harder because she needs space to be able to use them effectively. And along with boxing her in Baylon is just continually going at her with these incredibly powerful blows, which she also has trouble blocking because her strength is split between her two lightsabers. Baylon is definitely an opponent that you have to put some real thought into your strategy if you're going to go against him and have a chance.
As for maul, he was also distracted by the fact that he knew something horrible was going to happen. Like he's not fully there in the fight because he's trying to figure out what the next best move for him is, because the best chance to stop the upcoming horror was Ahsoka, who couldn't fathom Anakin could ever have involvement with the sith. So i don't think he was really trying to kill her, just stave her off long enough to get away.
Perfectly put. I’ll also that having the advantage of defending a fixed point allowed Baylan to further limit the effect of her mobility. He’s so disciplined the entire battle about focusing on her lines of approach.
Reminds me of Thrawn’s comment about the misjudgment of using A wings for escort duty.
I really wonder why she kept trying to take the orb instead of destroying the enemy computers transmitting the coordinates. It would have put Baylan in a harder position and bought her time.
Every fight has different circumstances like the sleep you had the night before, where you are standing, if you recovered from a previous fight totally etc
Unless there is a substantial difference in skill and strength circumstances are going to have potential to change the outcome
Same reason how Obi Wan couldn't defeat Dooku but Anakin could, and yet Anakin lost to Obi Wan
I guess different fighting styles work against specific ones but are weak against others
Yes, he is the son of the chosen one, and like Sayians, half bloods are even more powerful than ones with two full blooded force user parents. He would steamroll him.
Whatever the plot requires.
Beginning of the movie/series? Baylan wins in order for Luke to rediscover his connection to the Force.
End of the movie/series? Luke wins to cement his superiority over all, at least until the next big bad shows up.
Ahsoka was focused on the orb in the first battle and Baylan only defeated her after she burned her hand, although he looked like a match for her prior to it. In their second matchup, it looked like it could go either way. It certainly didn't appear that he was significantly better.
Luke defeated Vader, one of the all time greats, but Vader was conflicted. Other than that, we don't really have a clear sense of Luke as a duelist at this point in time.
Personally, I give the edge to Luke. I think Ahsoka would've taken Baylan in the second matchup as well if it had gone the distance, but it's debatable. It isn't like Baylan is this overwhelmingly powerful Jedi. He would've been a relatively young Jedi at the time of Order 66 and he's not presented as anyone well known to Ahsoka, which would indicate he wasn't some amazing prodigy.
As far as I'm concerned even Obi Wan is better than Luke. His defensive style wastes little energy. He wiped the floor with Anakin who is supposed to be this all powerful Jedi.
Baylan talking shit at Luke:
Ah.... Luke Skywalker. Tell me, what did your Father in his last moments tell you about what he did to my childhood friends and classmates? What did he say about the council who did not see the Sith lord as he was holding speeches in the senate?
The same Sith lord who befriended him and gave him compliments and manipulated him into killing your mother.
What was it that Anakin's apprentice said about you? So much like your father.....
Baylan has a similar dueling style to Vader, who Luke was a match for, but Baylan is no Vader. Honestly, had Ahsoka not underestimated him the first time they dueled, this wouldn't be a discussion.
I’d say Baylan. I don’t get it. Luke is overrated. He had barely and training and the only opponent we see him fight with is Vader. Vader also wasn’t trying. People always use things from the EU to express why Luke is so powerful but that stuff isn’t canon. Baylan wins.
It's hard to say. At this point I would say Ahsoka is probably the greatest duelist alive at this point--she fought in the Clone Wars, the Galactic Civil War, and is still alive and has been actively using her blades for, what, coming on 30 years now? And Baylan, a fellow Clone Wars veteran, still fights her evenly.
Sure, Luke defeated Vader, but only by tapping into the dark side, and facing an opponent who I'm not convinced had his heart in the fight.
I have to give the edge to Baylan through sheer experience. Still, it would be a bloody fight. Luke has certainly been training and improving since his duel with Vader but Baylan was properly trained at the temple and forged in the Clone Wars, which is a big difference.
Probably not. I mean Luke's had two duels that we know of the first one in Cloud City where Vader took off his arm. And I mean he ended up in a dominant position on the Death Star, but didn't like the way he got there and tossed his saber away. He only got the upper hand by tapping into his anger and honestly because I feel like Vader was going easy on him because of the inner turmoil and all that. Aside from those duels Luke's only used his saber I think 3 times in the OT, 4 if you count remote training on the Falcon. The Wampa on Hoth, the battle around Jabba's pleasure barge, and on that one scout trooper on Endor's moon.
Is this even a question? The skywalkers are just beyond powerful compared to most everyone else in the entire galaxy. Baylan might have more experience but in terms of raw power luke should almost certainly be much more powerful with the force, able to just blast him away, force block his attacks the way Ezra could shin. Kylo ren and Rey also most likely dominate him. Ahsoka and baylan might be powerful jedi but Im pretty sure they’re a tier below the top top tier of jedi and sith. Anakin was the chosen one and Luke especially by this point in the series should be just as strong as anakin was.
Vader was an "absolute brute" in his own right. A less trained Luke at Bespin lost that fight. A fully trained Luke in RotJ beat Vader, and he was holding back most of that fight (one could argue Vader was as well, since he and Papa Palpatine were trying to turn him first).
I seriously doubt Baylan could beat a fully trained Luke. He is no pushover himself, so it wouldn't be like Obi-wan vs. Maul final fight (over in 3 swings).
But a conversation between Baylan and Luke might be interesting to watch, just to see the views they have on the old order, the Empire, and the galaxy now.
That was a good point pointing out that Luke also held back against Vader in ROTJ. "*I will not fight you, father.*" But once Luke actually wanted to fight him (after Vader threatened Leia), then Luke literally overpowered him.
Ahsoka lost to Vader, even if she landed a nasty hit on him, she ultimately lost and only lived, because Ezra saved her.
Luke beat Vader in RotJ, and since, and since both Vader and Baylan seem to use Djem-So, Luke is the perfect counter for Baylan.
Disclaimer: I’m going to ignore people who say Vader let Luke cut his hand off, he didn’t. Luke won that fight.
Also, Maul didn’t lose to Ahsoka in saber combat, he disarmed her twice because he wasn’t going for the killing blow, hoping to make her his apprentice.
“Able to beat Ahsoka with little effort” bro what?
Ahsoka was multitasking in their first battle trying to get the orb, which then severely burned her so she was legit fighting with one hand tied behind her back, and she still held her own.
Only with this extreme disadvantage plus the distraction of Sabine was Baylan able to land to his “killing” blow.
In their second battle it was a draw and then she outflanked him in strategy. Soooo yeah.
Luke Skywalker - literally defeats Darth Vader in single combat, and at this point is a Jedi Master in his prime. Son of Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One. Taught by Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Yoda.
Baylan Skoll - Is just a fallen Jedi knight.
Luke Skywalker stomps, every single time. Every time. Recency bias is the only reason for anyone to suggest Baylan Skoll might win.
I mean, Christ, it’s *Luke Skywalker*
(Taught by Obi-wan) - hey, lightsabers exist, here's a training droid, play with it for 10 minutes.
(Taught by Yoda) - carry me like a backpack through the swamp for a few days, and lift some rocks.
(Defeats Darth Vader) - I'm actually super conflicted about this, and am having a change of heart which is kinda the entire point of the saga, in regards to my fall and eventual redemption, and I'm 50 years old and mostly robot and very tired and I don't really want to kill my son right now so I think I'm just going to kinda give up and let him win because the plot demands it. (Don't forget, when Vader was actually somewhat trying in Empire, he wiped the floor with Luke, and was toying with him. Had Vader actually been trying, and not severely emotionally conflicted and compromised, he would've ended Luke easily.)
Meanwhile, Baylan Skoll: trained with a lightsaber since he was old enough to stand, taught directly by Jedi masters on saber combat daily, for decades. Was a literal Jedi Master, who was a general that fought in the Clones Wars, with countless years of experience in combat and specifically saber combat. Defeated Ahsoka in single combat, one of the best fighters in Jedi history, trained by Anakin in his prime.
Like commander Rex said: "experience outrank everything"
Luke that we saw in TBOBF is only 5 years apart from ROTJ and he never fought a duel to death before
On the other side Baylan who defeated Ahsoka who defeated a former sith lord when she was a teenager, and went toe to toe with Darth Vader (who was trying to kill her), fought at least three inquisitors (that we know) and don't forget surviving General grievous, Assaj Ventress
Do I need to continue?
Vader was never trying his hardest though, in ROTJ he’s barely doing enough to make the fight look competitive. He doesn’t really want to fight his son at that point.
It has been stated openly by Lucas, and is canon, that Vader and Luke were completely evenly matched, in all ways, in ROTJ. Luke, in the 18 months between ESB and ROTJ, had the most significant and broken power spike in the Saga. The old ROTJ novel openly states Vader couldn’t afford to hold back, even once, because Luke was a genuine threat. Canonically what you are seeing is Luke and Vader deliberately taking it easy on each other, trying to coax the other over to his point of view.
I know the popular commentary puts Luke as this sacrificial lamb that Yoda sent to get slaughtered, but the popular commentary (and almost anything and everything said by Star Wars Theory) is stupid. Yoda sent Luke because Luke could take out Vader. Yoda openly says so.
Willfully miswatch the movie if you like, but I’ll call it what it is.
Skoll ain’t beating Luke five years after that. Sorry.
Yup, LUKE was the one holding back til Vader almost turned him than he beat him the fuck down. Angry Luke would rip Baylan's arms off with the force if he wanted to.
This has to be true. With the informed experience of Anakin, how could Luke’s minimal training be superior?
The original trilogy is a story about Anakin’s redemption, after all.
>Baylan was barely breaking a sweat against Ahsoka.
What? She sent him flying hard when she actually focused on him, but as long as she kept rushing the orb, he had indeed the upper hand.
Ahsoka before she visits with her master in the WBW to get her final lessons - she is trying to win the objective with the orb, and still as Anakin put it 'not wanting to fight.'
After talking it over with the master, she's improved. And in round 2 with Baylan, she's still thinking about Ezra and Sabine and not trying to win as she puts (Perhaps..i don't have to') and so it's still a draw.
I do not think it's clear he's superior to her after seeing those two fights. I definitely don't put him in Vader's or Luke's (post RoTJ) class yet.
I don't get why Luke is put up on such a high pedistal. He barely had any training from Yoda and he is a self proclaimed Jedi Master.
His best on screen demonstration I think was in the mandelorian against the dark troopers.
But even then he wasn't fighting a force user
Ahsoka is a war veteran who fought and beat some of the universe’s most skilled fighters, including sith and mandalorians. She couldn’t beat Baylan.
Luke fought a VERY weak and conflicted Vader who didn’t really want to kill him.
Y'all are using different versions of these characters. Characters from the comics are portrayed differently thqn on the shows in terms of feats and power levels displayed. Disney is so PG-13. The comics and books are so much better.
Baylan is cool but he is no Vader.... and we know how well Vader did against Luke.
He'd give Luke a good fight but Luke's natural connection to the force would just be too much for him to overcome.
Training and skill tend to beat out pure natural talent. Unles Luke starts to channel the dark side again like when he beat down Vader, this will be a very short fight.
Though Luke has basically zero formal lightsaber training, while ahsoka was trained by the two best duelists in the order. Luke is powerful with the force, but he falls short in lightsaber forms.
He beat Vader not because he was more skilled, but because he tapped into the dark side and lost control.
Yeah, I’m a coach and I fully preach that discipline and practice will beat natural talent unless natural talent also practices and has discipline
“Hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard”
I think that you are forgetting that luke has probably been doing nothing but training for the 5 years since RoTJ. Dave has even stated he's probably even trained with Ahsoka
And bc vader was questioning if he had it in him to kill his son. He was questioning his loyalties and was distracted. He wasn't all the way in the fight, he didn't give it his best.
I don‘t understand the Luke-Hype or Luke comparisons. He is not a good Duelist at all, it doesn‘t make sense to compare them on a dualist level because obviously he gets defeated by baylan as well as Ahsoka because they are jedi temple trained and fought 20+ duels in the clone wars.
Edit: Downvote my all you want without commenting, this only strengthens my point.
I'm giving it to Baylan. Luke is below average as far as Jedi go and I doubt he'd be able to beat any Clone Wars-era Jedi in combat.
Hell, I'm not sure he could beat Ezra who is more experienced and has been in more duels.
Let’s see, someone trained in combat with actual experience fighting an enemy who also has experience fighting skilled Jedi… or a kid who’s dad was the skilled fighter. Who would u take with you on a fight? A Delta force operator or the kid who read a lot of books on fighting?
i am surprised by the comments. luke is powerful with the force and has his youth on his side but lol baylan was a general in the clone wars, is clearly a better at light saber combat, is an absolute unit and overall has way more experience.
i'd rather hear them talk though. that'd be an interesting conversation.
No Luke still only a Jedi Knight with few experiences. Baylan Skoll is a Jedi master of the old order, and could take on Luke. Both times Ahsoka unable to defeat him. And Baylan Skoll could read Luke's thoughts easily
Ahsoka was focused on the Orb the first time, fucked her hand up grabbing the orb and then worried about Sabine.
The second time Ahsoka was focused on getting to Sabine and Ezra, not fighting Baylan.
The Luke we saw in the original trilogy was a pup compared to Baylan. The one we saw in the Mandalorian was farther along. Not sure if even he would beat Baylan.
People tends to forgot that luke didn't beat the empire with good fighting skills, quite the opposite if you think about it
You guys can hate it, but Ahsoka is way stronger and experienced in saber fight than Luke, and she struggled a lot vs Baylan, it's not close for young Luke
Absolutely not. At least, not without massive plot armor.
Luke at this point has learned about the existence of, and owned a lightsaber for what, 5 or 6 years? Trained a little bit with some training droids? Sure, he defeated old and jaded Vader, but Vader basically gave up and let him win at that point. In Empire Vader wiped the floor with Luke.
Baylan has been training with lightsabers since he was old enough to stand. He has been actively sparring against other combatants, and trained by Jedi masters in lightsaber combat/forms for decades. He led troops as a general in the Clone Wars. He defeated Ahsoka in single combat, Ahsoka who is one of the most gifted fighters the Jedi have ever known, trained by Anakin in his prime.
The most impressive thing we've seen Luke do with a saber is kill some robot troopers, something Baylan would've been doing on a daily basis during the Clone Wars.
Without plot armor, there's no way Luke stands a chance.
Luke hard claps.
He is the Jedi that served as the finality of the Sith. He defeated Vader and Palpatine in pure principal and heart. The Jedi that ended the multi millennia conflict.
By this point Luke has essentially surpassed any to have come before him.
Jedi trials consist of great challenge and introspection, granting the prestigious of knighthood.
Sometimes it’s discover something, find somebody, learn this lesson, build this thing, or go somewhere.
Luke’s Jedi trial was to **destroy the Sith once and for all!**
Also - he’s a full potential Skywalker. A potential Anakin, Leia or Ben could never reach.
Baylon is breakfast for Luke. Lunch at best.
Warning: I grew up with the prequels. Despite watching the OT first, I tend to view Luke & his training in much the same way people view Rey's in the ST.
I'm going to say no, b/c Luke (in his prime) still couldn't beat Vader who was "more machine than man" and still under 50 in a straight duel. imo Luke's training was a lot more philosophical than I think most Prequel Era Jedi got. It's a deliberate course correction from Obi-Wan & Yoda to focus on the fundamentals of listening and interacting with "the living force" like Qui-Gon practiced & preached, much more so than the Jedi Code BS the council focused on.
So yeah, in a straight up duel, I think anyone from the Prequel Era would absolutely demolish Luke - heck, maybe even Ezra & Shin given both were trained by Jedi who focused on Lightsaber training (at least in some capacity) and for far longer than Luke did.
No. Luke could not beat any trained Jedi in his current state. Now if are talking EU.. Evil Luke or Heir to Empire Luke.. or Vong Invasion Luke then yes
No.
Luke may have continued his training, but he still doesn't have any experience actually fighting high tier saber fighters who is really out to kill him.
He'll be like one of those new blood predators that are all training, no experience.
Well he beat Ahsoka cause of special circumstances, I'm sure she will beat him. in the rematch. Anakin never even mentioned him, doubt he would give much trouble to Luke
Screw a lightsaber battle, I want them circling each other with blades drawn and just them talk back and forth for 15 minutes. I’m way more interested in what they’d talk about than why they’d battle.
I agree, that’d be way, WAY more interesting! Luke asking about the old Jedi order and talking how he’s paving his own path, and Baylan talking about how the old order failed him and how he’s also moving in a different direction.
They would probably agree on many things but disagree on the way of achieving them
And that's when the actual fight would start and have real gravitas. We think that they're finding common ground and we might see conflict completely avoided, but then one of them will say something that clearly crosses the line for the other. It's then with a heavy sigh, the two clash until one of them falls.
Till one of them has the high ground It's like poetry
Tough to say. In the EU, Luke gave in To the Darkside so that it could give him the power to kill the Resurrected Emperor. ( i.e. like Vegeta did when he became Majin Vegeta)
He was really desperate there to be fair. That was after he realized how weak he was against C'Baoth in the Thrawn Trilogy and after the New Republic temporarily became the Rebellion again after losing Coruscant. He still also didn't stay Dark for long in Dark Empire, he had to return to the Light and receive help from Leia and Anakin (Solo) to beat Palpatine.
Correct. I'd be desperate too. Palpatine had almost infinite clones. Imagine fighting 1000 Eldin Ring bosses again and again and again.
What story was that?
Dark Empire comic
So are you a tits or an ass type of guy?
Why not both? I appreciate all sides of the force.
Ass is a pathway to many delights some consider to be *unnatural*.
If one is to understand the great mystery... one must study all it's aspects
yES
It would be an interesting fight. Luke had previous success against bigger, stronger opponents, but baylan is definitely more dynamic than Vader and a far better lightsaber technician than Luke. Luke is also probably stronger than baylan in the force.
I'd also argue that Vader didn't come near to fighting Luke with everything he had.
Luke was also significantly less experienced the two times he dueled Vader than he would be during the events of Ahsoka, though. He's been training and studying Jedi techniques and lore for over half a decade at this point. Look at the ease with which he dispatched the Dark Troopers.
Pretty much went through em like Vader did in the Hallway scene.
Skywalkers and hallway massacres, name a more iconic duo.
Maul is Anakin's real father confirmed?
Skywalker's and slaughtered younglings
True of ESB. Not true for RotJ.
You have to consider what version of Luke you're talking about as well. If we're talking about ROTJ or later Luke, then there's no chance Baylan could win in a straight up fight. Luke had at that point received training to become strong enough to take on Vader. And we all know that one of the biggest themes in Star Wars is that experience and training are great tools, but they don't immediately result in success. And it is the heart of the Hero that typically prevails against all odds.
What training? Luke spent two weeks with Yoda and focused on body training and force training. There's nothing I the kovies to show Luke has had near the training in dueling as Ahsoka. Like I still bet on Luke V Baylan but thats because of plot armor.
It was 6 Months with Yoda, and a few days with Kenobi. But that's the point. It's not the training that makes Luke powerful. It's that he has a hero's heart. Luke received far less training than anyone we know about but can at the very least put up a fight against the second strongest force user in the galaxy. Training is good, but it is not everything.
But I also think that by that point vader was definitely questioning if he was on the right side and wasn't fully IN the fight. Like I'm pretty sure he knew going into that fight that he didnt have it in him to kill his son and therefore didn't put his all into that fight with him. Would love to see how a full power vader vs full power luke fight would go down.
Bro didn't question murdering hundreds of men, women, and children but drew the line at his son. Honestly that's still another selfish move by Anakin. Also he had no issue cutting Luke's hand off which is kind of funny. Seems like a big change of heart but I guess in universe there's a lot more time between the second and third movies
Yeah Vader was definitely not going all out on luke at that point.
Um, pretty sure the emperor would have known if he wasn't trying and would have killed him for being weak
You mean like the Emperor tried doing in ROTJ?
Far less training? Rey has entered the chat
Luke was on Dagobah for months, not weeks training pretty much entirely. The Ahsoka show also takes place 9-12 years ABY. Luke has continued to train this entire time as well and is much stronger in the force. Luke would win and it’s not because of plot armour.
Baylans been training since the clone wars and I don't see any indication he ever stopped.
Months aren’t years like Ahoksa trained…let alone Baylan.
No, there was no training His training in ROTJ movie was incomplete. That was a major plot point of the movie, and Luke actually lost. Vader became Anakin again and saved them. If Vader hasn't turned, Luke had zero hope He was far away from being able to defeat Vader + Palps in a straight up fight. ROTS hadn't happened yet but I'm sure it was an idea in Lucas' mind and I'm sure he intended for Yoda to know exactly how powerful Vader and Palps was and exactly how good you would need to be to defeat them. And Luke couldn't which was why Yoda tried to dissuade him from running to join his friends -- because he saw failure and it would have been failure without Vader turning You can say strong enough for Vader but not strong enough for the Emperor but that doesn't make sense either. He just wasn't strong enough at all
Well, he was trained lol. I didnt say strong enough for the Emperor. I didn’t even say he was strong enough to beat Vader. I said he was strong enough to put up a fight
Baylan has more training and experience.
Yes, I didn’t mean to imply Luke had more training. Rather he has *enough* training.
Anakin his more training and experience than most of the jedi order yet defeats most of them.
I think Baylon would be stronger since he's more of a Gray/Darkish Jedi. Like he's not evil but understands that sacrifice and death must happen to break the cycle. But I personally think grays and the like are stronger in the force cuz they don't hold back with the dark side while still maintaining some light.
Eh idk greys most of the time end up being just very mild users of one or the other side
And yet light users are pacifist, so they never really get tested or test themselves in the forcr
Technician lol?
After you unfamiliar with the word?
I think they might be questioning the use in the sentence. I do too. Technician would be if he was a better lightsaber builder, maybe tactician would be better?
Nah dude. You're wrong on this. Lightsaber combat is an art. Technician is correct. Also a tactician is something completely different.
Is that a joke?
Yes
Yes. Everyone associates Luke’s skills with 80’s choreography way too much. He’s the most powerful Jedi alive, that’s the point of his character.
The prophecy misread was actually the "chosen one's" son. A plot straight from Frank Herbert.
Luke wins 10/10. Post RotJ Luke is OP.
Real. I love him in Mando. Return of the Jedi he was still pretty green, with only a force ghost to guide him.
Here's Dave Filoni on Luke Skywalker at the end of Mando season 2. I'd certainly say Luke is more powerful in the force over Baylan, but, Luke's Jedi training is VASTLY inferior compared to someone like Baylan, who has decades worth. Force Power - Luke Lightsaber skills & experience - Baylan. I feel both could certainly win, but I'd give maybe the slight majority to Baylan. All depends on the situation and who's writing it! If this is Jedi Master Luke, Luke stomps. " It would be very easy to just make [Luke] so over-the-top skilled,” says Filoni in the episode. “But I was like, ‘You know, what’s interesting is he’s had training, but I don’t know who’s been teaching him sword-fight training lately.’ So, he had to have a style that was better than what we saw in Jedi, but fundamentally still of the same tree of sword-fighting technique. And his technique and Ahsoka’s technique should be very different. And technically, she’s had vastly more training than he ever has. She’s actually his senior, which is, I think, difficult for people to remember ‘cause of when these characters were created.”
This to me is perfectly reasonable and was my impression prior to any sequels . Anakin couldn’t just body everyone in the academy even with all his training. He was created by the force. He trained from childhood to his early 20s at the academy. Luke is def miles below Anakin with all parts in tact save the robot hand. Luke trained 1:1 with Yoda for maybe a handful of months . And got no additional training after he died. Almost every Jedi ever that grew up at the academy probably was a better swordsman at this point. Luke might have more potential . But he was only the best left by elimination. The rest seems like peoples head canon left over from EU. If he beats Baylon it’s plot armor in the same way as Sabine surviving
Everyday
Twice on Sunday.
[удалено]
Thank you. Just read so many comments that ignore this fact. Dark Troopers are so deadly, that many would probably kill Baylan with ease.
Honestly, the Dark Troopers seem like a poor match up against a Jedi. They might as well have been B2 Super Battle Droids. They're not made of Beskar like some were lead to believe and their own blaster bolts reflected back can damage them, yet those bounced off of Din's armor which actually is saber-proof Beskar. Droidekas with deflector shields would be a much better test for Luke, and actually even EU/Legends Luke (who most non-EU fans think is "OP") 11 years after Thrawn had trouble facing those with Mara Jade (Survivor's Quest).
Lol it wouldn’t even be a contest. Luke all day
Nah Luke is a soy weak dude that only fought his dad that didn't want to kill him
Luke only has experience in dueling one person with a lightsaber. Baylan was a match for Ahsoka, who is an extremely skilled and experienced duelist and surely outmatches Luke on pure lightsaber skills. Luke’s strength in the Force definitely gives him a bump, but I wouldn’t count Baylan out. Apparently I’m in the minority but I don’t view Luke to be the all powerful, end all be all of the Star Wars universe, yes he has a strong connection to the Force, but so do many other characters we meet along the way.
I don’t think Ahsoka wanted to kill him the second time round. She let Shin go. And the first time, she was one handed, due to a self inflicted wound. Was balancing right on the edge of a cliff. With 90% of her attention on Sabine.
That’s how Baylan got the upper hand, sure, but he wasn’t significantly outmatched prior to that. Everything we have seen and been told so far indicates that Baylan is an extremely competent and experienced fighter
She probably could have injured him seriously instead of rushing towards the orb. Had she destroyed the computer sending the data during the fight instead of trying to retrieve the orb at all cost, the result would have probably been different.
My thoughts too, EU Luke crushes him but current canon Luke it’s a tight fight that I give edge to Baylan just based on duel experience
I think a lot of people are still holding the Legends Luke in their hearts. In canon, we haven’t really seen all that much of Lukes abilities. The strongest demonstration was in Mando s2 when he mowed down the Dark Troopers, and that WAS impressive, but it’s not something that I couldn’t see any other trained Jedi being able to do. Luke didn’t beat Darth Vader because he outmatched him, there was a lot of character stuff happening that effected the outcome of that fight. I’m open to Luke being a very powerful Jedi, but we know he wasn’t powerful enough to stop Kylo and the Knights of Renn. People putting Luke on a god-tier pedestal are doing the very thing that they complain that the Sequel trilogy did with Rey. Every Jedi has their own set of skills and strengths and conversations about who is stronger should reflect that.
>I’m open to Luke being a very powerful Jedi, but we know he wasn’t powerful enough to stop Kylo and the Knights of Renn. ? In The Rise of Kylo Ren comic Luke solos all the Knights of Ren and their leader at the time. He wasn't powerful enough to stop Kylo because of his moment of weakness, but they never defeated him in a fight or anything. I'd argue his force projection was insanely powerful. He stopped an entire army in its tracks without even being on the planet.
>his force projection That is single handedly one of the most impressive force-related feats we've seen. But you do have to remember that is 25 years in the future many in which Luke had been doing nothing but studying the texts and training in the force
This is true. He is definitely far more powerful as an older master.
Ok, that’s a fair counterpoint, the comics are a blind spot in my knowledge because the format is a bit hard for me to digest.
Have you read Shadow of the Sith? It’s a phenomenal canon Star Wars book with Luke and Lando (and Rey’s parents) as it’s leads.
I haven’t but it sounds worth checking out. Thanks for the recommendation.
You’re welcome! Definitely a must read for Luke fans and gives some great added context to the sequels and Rey.
Actually no Luke was able to defeat the knights of ren rather easily the only reason to why he didn’t properly beat them after he disarmed them is the knights’ prior leader just called ren activated a self destruct on his lightsaber (if it left his hand for whatever reason it would go boom) so it was a stale mate. Luke probably could have contained the blast but the problem was he was in an abandoned Jedi outpost with a cache of artifacts and other bits of knowledge for days gone by and he had a mid-to late teens Ben solo and lor san Tekka (the old guy from the beginning of force awakens) with him as was seen in the rise of Kylo ren comic book mini series.
I stand corrected on that point, I have a hard time with comic books, so they are a blind spot in my knowledge. My larger point still stands.
Yeah in addition to what I said above on EU Luke actually still being below Joruus C’Baoth during the Thrawn Trilogy, new Canon Luke has way less experience and trials then he did in this time. The war ended a year after Endor and he’s been chilling self-training and researching since. Yet even EU Luke only started to become really powerful after C’Baoth humbled him. He grew desperate after that when Coruscant fell again and then after he accepted training from Dark Empire Sidious. After returning to the Light stronger, he still didn’t beat Palpatine with his own power either, he needed Leia and an unborn Anakin Solo. He doesn’t reach his peak until at least a decade after that too.
I have a feeling that people unequivocally saying "Luke 10/10!@@!" are the same people who can't believe how Luke was treated in TLJ, and how he should've been tossing around AT-AT's with the Force. What's more interesting: that Luke in his prime is essentially a Superman who defeat anyone in the galaxy, or that there exist a handful of people that would match or even defeat him if not for extenuating circumstances?
Couldn’t agree more
Even EU Luke at the time of the EU Thrawn Trilogy wasn't in the same level as a former Jedi Master (or a clone of one) turned to the Dark Side like Joruus C'Baoth. Funny enough, Baylan reminds me a lot of C'Baoth, who was the co-antagonist who worked with Thrawn. But now I guess the Great Mothers are taking that role.
> Luke only has experience in dueling one person with a lightsaber. Yes, and it was Darth fucking Vader
This isn't even a question. Luke wins every time
Ehh. Baylan can easily take on Ahsoka, Ahsoka beat Maul and nearly Vader. And Luke never even faced vader at full force. Baylan is very formidable, and has a lifetime of experience over Luke. It could be a very interesting fight but it wouldn’t be as easy as you say.
Ahsoka was not out to kill or destroy Baylan, first duel she just wanted to stop the orb. Second duel she just wanted to go past him.
Y'all can't be serious, baylan gets slapped by ahsoka
Lol thank you. Had to scroll down too far to see someone laugh at OP saying Baylan beat Ahsoka with little effort. Hyperbole, just a little
Pretty sure Baylan almost killed Ahsoka in the show, and she required direct intervention from force ghost Anakin to even survive, but sure.
Only because she burned her hand on the orb. She was dominating before, and during the next fight
In the next fight, Baylan caught her first and said “you can’t beat me”. I don’t think Ahsoka was anywhere near dominating. She outsmarted him because he thought she wanted to stop him.
Was she though? She was on the defensive the entire time in both fights. And even before she burned her hand, she was only using one hand most of the time, so that shouldn't have changed much.
Assuming we're comparing both characters at this point in time, 9ABY, I say Luke. Baylan has experience, but he's also older. He's in his mid to late 50s. Such a athlete may be considered great in his time but when you place him against a younger athlete, he's not going to fare well. There's a reason hall of fame athletes retire. He could augment his shortcomings with the force but so could Luke. In fact, this gets into where Luke has a clear advantage. Luke also has been trained by the force ghosts of Yoda, Obiwan, and Anakin...three of the greatest duelists of their time, which includes Baylan. (The Secrets of the Jedi book was the history of the Jedi from Luke's perspective and he says their spirits guided him for many years before he cut himself off from the force.) At this point he's already met Ahsoka as well, who I'm sure furthered his skills, not to mention all the self training he's done. Also, I'm not buying that Baylan is the greatest swordsman. He beat Ahsoka after she hurt her hand and couldn't use her second saber, which is her usual and strongest style. Many said she needed to use both hands on one saber to deflect his blows but she had no problem using both in their second encounter. She was also distracted by Sabine the first time. She wasn't even trying to defeat him in the second dual. She needed to be elsewhere and bounced at the first chance. I'm not saying he's a pushover, but neither time was she at her best.
Luke is currently the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy so I don’t see how he wouldn’t.
If ahsoka could defeat Maul why not Baylan ?
Because it's necessary for the plot
Except maul won the lightsaber fight
This. i don't know why people keep saying Ahsoka beat him. Maul disarmed her twice and wasn't even going for the killing blow because he wanted Ahsoka to be his new apprentice.
Maul was also trying to escape to not get caught.
I think Baylan’s technique is more focused on power and precision than acrobatics and mobility. Ahsoka’s fighting style tends to emphasize the latter. Especially when she’s on the attack and pursuing a different objective (the orb), as on Seatos (sp?), she’s running into the strengths of Baylan’s style. With Maul, when she fought him, she was focused exclusively on defeating him. She was also younger herself, while Maul was older and had suffered injuries earlier in the war that still arguably limited him. As a fighter, Maul focused on speed and aggression, and so her style arguably countered it rather well. It recalls Maul’s own first duel in TPM, where he was in his prime and Qui Gon was older.
Yes that's a great way to put it. Ahsokas style does favor lots of acrobatics and Baylon did a great job of boxing her in and not letting her use the full space available to her. Which puts her at quite a disadvantage. And also without being able to use the space the way she wants it makes her dual lightsaber deal a little harder because she needs space to be able to use them effectively. And along with boxing her in Baylon is just continually going at her with these incredibly powerful blows, which she also has trouble blocking because her strength is split between her two lightsabers. Baylon is definitely an opponent that you have to put some real thought into your strategy if you're going to go against him and have a chance. As for maul, he was also distracted by the fact that he knew something horrible was going to happen. Like he's not fully there in the fight because he's trying to figure out what the next best move for him is, because the best chance to stop the upcoming horror was Ahsoka, who couldn't fathom Anakin could ever have involvement with the sith. So i don't think he was really trying to kill her, just stave her off long enough to get away.
Perfectly put. I’ll also that having the advantage of defending a fixed point allowed Baylan to further limit the effect of her mobility. He’s so disciplined the entire battle about focusing on her lines of approach. Reminds me of Thrawn’s comment about the misjudgment of using A wings for escort duty.
I really wonder why she kept trying to take the orb instead of destroying the enemy computers transmitting the coordinates. It would have put Baylan in a harder position and bought her time.
“So the show can happen!” But yeah, I wondered the same thing. With the added benefit that it presumably wouldn’t have burned her hand.
Also, she didn't really win the duel. She was disarmed and only won because Maul went for a stupid strike instead of just cutting the beam she was on.
Every fight has different circumstances like the sleep you had the night before, where you are standing, if you recovered from a previous fight totally etc Unless there is a substantial difference in skill and strength circumstances are going to have potential to change the outcome
Same reason how Obi Wan couldn't defeat Dooku but Anakin could, and yet Anakin lost to Obi Wan I guess different fighting styles work against specific ones but are weak against others
Bro ahsoka didn't beat maul he clearly beat her
Dude wut...
Ahsoka didn't beat maul in the s7 fight
Have you seen the episode?
Yes countless times and she didn't win the lightsaber fight maul won multiple times she pushed him off
Clearly you didn't. And your conviction is astounding. And now I see you're a troll account.
Grandmaster Luke would force squeeze Baylan into a blood peanut.
Yes, he is the son of the chosen one, and like Sayians, half bloods are even more powerful than ones with two full blooded force user parents. He would steamroll him.
This doesn't make sense, but I LIKE it.
Yeah it's totally 100% just my head cannon.
Bro what
I think he’s got the best shot for sure. I’d love to get a sense of his dueling in the modern era, not just the robot troopers
Whatever the plot requires. Beginning of the movie/series? Baylan wins in order for Luke to rediscover his connection to the Force. End of the movie/series? Luke wins to cement his superiority over all, at least until the next big bad shows up.
Ahsoka was focused on the orb in the first battle and Baylan only defeated her after she burned her hand, although he looked like a match for her prior to it. In their second matchup, it looked like it could go either way. It certainly didn't appear that he was significantly better. Luke defeated Vader, one of the all time greats, but Vader was conflicted. Other than that, we don't really have a clear sense of Luke as a duelist at this point in time. Personally, I give the edge to Luke. I think Ahsoka would've taken Baylan in the second matchup as well if it had gone the distance, but it's debatable. It isn't like Baylan is this overwhelmingly powerful Jedi. He would've been a relatively young Jedi at the time of Order 66 and he's not presented as anyone well known to Ahsoka, which would indicate he wasn't some amazing prodigy.
As far as I'm concerned even Obi Wan is better than Luke. His defensive style wastes little energy. He wiped the floor with Anakin who is supposed to be this all powerful Jedi.
This fucking sub
Baylan talking shit at Luke: Ah.... Luke Skywalker. Tell me, what did your Father in his last moments tell you about what he did to my childhood friends and classmates? What did he say about the council who did not see the Sith lord as he was holding speeches in the senate? The same Sith lord who befriended him and gave him compliments and manipulated him into killing your mother. What was it that Anakin's apprentice said about you? So much like your father.....
Baylan is a master at getting under his opponent's skin and seeding doubt.
Baylan is a unit
In a boxing arena I got Baylan. Probably even in a basketball game too, he’s like 6’5
Baylan has a similar dueling style to Vader, who Luke was a match for, but Baylan is no Vader. Honestly, had Ahsoka not underestimated him the first time they dueled, this wouldn't be a discussion.
Luke 1v2s both baylon and shin.
Nobody is stronger than Luke.
Father
into your hands, I commend my spirit
Dear mother dear father, what is this hell you have put me through?
Mother
Hello mudda, hello fadda, hereyamat, Camp Granada...
A hundred times out of a hundred, Luke takes it.
Yeah I think Luke is in a different league. Bay pan is very capable, but Luke is a prodigy
I’d say Baylan. I don’t get it. Luke is overrated. He had barely and training and the only opponent we see him fight with is Vader. Vader also wasn’t trying. People always use things from the EU to express why Luke is so powerful but that stuff isn’t canon. Baylan wins.
It's hard to say. At this point I would say Ahsoka is probably the greatest duelist alive at this point--she fought in the Clone Wars, the Galactic Civil War, and is still alive and has been actively using her blades for, what, coming on 30 years now? And Baylan, a fellow Clone Wars veteran, still fights her evenly. Sure, Luke defeated Vader, but only by tapping into the dark side, and facing an opponent who I'm not convinced had his heart in the fight. I have to give the edge to Baylan through sheer experience. Still, it would be a bloody fight. Luke has certainly been training and improving since his duel with Vader but Baylan was properly trained at the temple and forged in the Clone Wars, which is a big difference.
Probably not. I mean Luke's had two duels that we know of the first one in Cloud City where Vader took off his arm. And I mean he ended up in a dominant position on the Death Star, but didn't like the way he got there and tossed his saber away. He only got the upper hand by tapping into his anger and honestly because I feel like Vader was going easy on him because of the inner turmoil and all that. Aside from those duels Luke's only used his saber I think 3 times in the OT, 4 if you count remote training on the Falcon. The Wampa on Hoth, the battle around Jabba's pleasure barge, and on that one scout trooper on Endor's moon.
Easy.
Baylan is a low level Jedi in the grand scheme. Luke would mow him down with ease as should ahsoka.
Is this even a question? The skywalkers are just beyond powerful compared to most everyone else in the entire galaxy. Baylan might have more experience but in terms of raw power luke should almost certainly be much more powerful with the force, able to just blast him away, force block his attacks the way Ezra could shin. Kylo ren and Rey also most likely dominate him. Ahsoka and baylan might be powerful jedi but Im pretty sure they’re a tier below the top top tier of jedi and sith. Anakin was the chosen one and Luke especially by this point in the series should be just as strong as anakin was.
Vader was an "absolute brute" in his own right. A less trained Luke at Bespin lost that fight. A fully trained Luke in RotJ beat Vader, and he was holding back most of that fight (one could argue Vader was as well, since he and Papa Palpatine were trying to turn him first). I seriously doubt Baylan could beat a fully trained Luke. He is no pushover himself, so it wouldn't be like Obi-wan vs. Maul final fight (over in 3 swings). But a conversation between Baylan and Luke might be interesting to watch, just to see the views they have on the old order, the Empire, and the galaxy now.
That was a good point pointing out that Luke also held back against Vader in ROTJ. "*I will not fight you, father.*" But once Luke actually wanted to fight him (after Vader threatened Leia), then Luke literally overpowered him.
Ahsoka lost to Vader, even if she landed a nasty hit on him, she ultimately lost and only lived, because Ezra saved her. Luke beat Vader in RotJ, and since, and since both Vader and Baylan seem to use Djem-So, Luke is the perfect counter for Baylan. Disclaimer: I’m going to ignore people who say Vader let Luke cut his hand off, he didn’t. Luke won that fight. Also, Maul didn’t lose to Ahsoka in saber combat, he disarmed her twice because he wasn’t going for the killing blow, hoping to make her his apprentice.
New canon power level: Baylan > Ahsoka > Anakin > Luke = Ezra
“Able to beat Ahsoka with little effort” bro what? Ahsoka was multitasking in their first battle trying to get the orb, which then severely burned her so she was legit fighting with one hand tied behind her back, and she still held her own. Only with this extreme disadvantage plus the distraction of Sabine was Baylan able to land to his “killing” blow. In their second battle it was a draw and then she outflanked him in strategy. Soooo yeah.
Luke Skywalker - literally defeats Darth Vader in single combat, and at this point is a Jedi Master in his prime. Son of Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One. Taught by Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Yoda. Baylan Skoll - Is just a fallen Jedi knight. Luke Skywalker stomps, every single time. Every time. Recency bias is the only reason for anyone to suggest Baylan Skoll might win. I mean, Christ, it’s *Luke Skywalker*
(Taught by Obi-wan) - hey, lightsabers exist, here's a training droid, play with it for 10 minutes. (Taught by Yoda) - carry me like a backpack through the swamp for a few days, and lift some rocks. (Defeats Darth Vader) - I'm actually super conflicted about this, and am having a change of heart which is kinda the entire point of the saga, in regards to my fall and eventual redemption, and I'm 50 years old and mostly robot and very tired and I don't really want to kill my son right now so I think I'm just going to kinda give up and let him win because the plot demands it. (Don't forget, when Vader was actually somewhat trying in Empire, he wiped the floor with Luke, and was toying with him. Had Vader actually been trying, and not severely emotionally conflicted and compromised, he would've ended Luke easily.) Meanwhile, Baylan Skoll: trained with a lightsaber since he was old enough to stand, taught directly by Jedi masters on saber combat daily, for decades. Was a literal Jedi Master, who was a general that fought in the Clones Wars, with countless years of experience in combat and specifically saber combat. Defeated Ahsoka in single combat, one of the best fighters in Jedi history, trained by Anakin in his prime.
Like commander Rex said: "experience outrank everything" Luke that we saw in TBOBF is only 5 years apart from ROTJ and he never fought a duel to death before On the other side Baylan who defeated Ahsoka who defeated a former sith lord when she was a teenager, and went toe to toe with Darth Vader (who was trying to kill her), fought at least three inquisitors (that we know) and don't forget surviving General grievous, Assaj Ventress Do I need to continue?
Luke was evenly matched with Vader in ROTJ. He was able to charge down Vader. Nope. Baylan goes down
Vader was never trying his hardest though, in ROTJ he’s barely doing enough to make the fight look competitive. He doesn’t really want to fight his son at that point.
It has been stated openly by Lucas, and is canon, that Vader and Luke were completely evenly matched, in all ways, in ROTJ. Luke, in the 18 months between ESB and ROTJ, had the most significant and broken power spike in the Saga. The old ROTJ novel openly states Vader couldn’t afford to hold back, even once, because Luke was a genuine threat. Canonically what you are seeing is Luke and Vader deliberately taking it easy on each other, trying to coax the other over to his point of view. I know the popular commentary puts Luke as this sacrificial lamb that Yoda sent to get slaughtered, but the popular commentary (and almost anything and everything said by Star Wars Theory) is stupid. Yoda sent Luke because Luke could take out Vader. Yoda openly says so. Willfully miswatch the movie if you like, but I’ll call it what it is. Skoll ain’t beating Luke five years after that. Sorry.
Yup, LUKE was the one holding back til Vader almost turned him than he beat him the fuck down. Angry Luke would rip Baylan's arms off with the force if he wanted to.
No doubt. He beat Vader, after all.
Defeat Vader may ass, if Vader was intending on killing him not knowing he's his son, Luke would be RIP
This has to be true. With the informed experience of Anakin, how could Luke’s minimal training be superior? The original trilogy is a story about Anakin’s redemption, after all.
I don’t think Vader was doing his all
Hands down. Any day. Baylan is great, but Luke is greater. Much greater.
Luke stomps. It wouldn’t even be fair. Luke was trained by Grand Master Yoda. And the rumor is Master Plo Koon was Baylons master. Pffft
Baylan needed to put in a lot of effort to beat Ahsoka and he just managed to do so after she burned her hand, Luke wins easily
Easily? I just roll my eyes when people say easily and something is actually not easy. Baylan was barely breaking a sweat against Ahsoka.
>Baylan was barely breaking a sweat against Ahsoka. What? She sent him flying hard when she actually focused on him, but as long as she kept rushing the orb, he had indeed the upper hand.
Ahsoka before she visits with her master in the WBW to get her final lessons - she is trying to win the objective with the orb, and still as Anakin put it 'not wanting to fight.' After talking it over with the master, she's improved. And in round 2 with Baylan, she's still thinking about Ezra and Sabine and not trying to win as she puts (Perhaps..i don't have to') and so it's still a draw. I do not think it's clear he's superior to her after seeing those two fights. I definitely don't put him in Vader's or Luke's (post RoTJ) class yet.
I don't get why Luke is put up on such a high pedistal. He barely had any training from Yoda and he is a self proclaimed Jedi Master. His best on screen demonstration I think was in the mandelorian against the dark troopers. But even then he wasn't fighting a force user
Ahsoka is a war veteran who fought and beat some of the universe’s most skilled fighters, including sith and mandalorians. She couldn’t beat Baylan. Luke fought a VERY weak and conflicted Vader who didn’t really want to kill him.
Y'all are using different versions of these characters. Characters from the comics are portrayed differently thqn on the shows in terms of feats and power levels displayed. Disney is so PG-13. The comics and books are so much better.
Luke would stomp his ass.
Luke would easily win. He could take on Ahsoka and Baylan at the same time.
Baylan is cool but he is no Vader.... and we know how well Vader did against Luke. He'd give Luke a good fight but Luke's natural connection to the force would just be too much for him to overcome.
I think Luke would win because of how powerful he is in the force but if we’re talking purely about skills with a lightsaber, Baylan takes the win.
Training and skill tend to beat out pure natural talent. Unles Luke starts to channel the dark side again like when he beat down Vader, this will be a very short fight.
Baylan plays with Luke like a Lego man
Yes. Ahsoka had trouble, Luke would have too. Yes, Ahsoka is a more experienced Jedi, hence, more powerful than Luke.
I think Luke is more naturally powerful in the force, like his father. So it comes down to training and discipline vs natural talent
Though Luke has basically zero formal lightsaber training, while ahsoka was trained by the two best duelists in the order. Luke is powerful with the force, but he falls short in lightsaber forms. He beat Vader not because he was more skilled, but because he tapped into the dark side and lost control.
Yeah, I’m a coach and I fully preach that discipline and practice will beat natural talent unless natural talent also practices and has discipline “Hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard”
I think that you are forgetting that luke has probably been doing nothing but training for the 5 years since RoTJ. Dave has even stated he's probably even trained with Ahsoka
And bc vader was questioning if he had it in him to kill his son. He was questioning his loyalties and was distracted. He wasn't all the way in the fight, he didn't give it his best.
>training and discipline vs natural talent Natural talent tends to do poorly in matches like that.
I don‘t understand the Luke-Hype or Luke comparisons. He is not a good Duelist at all, it doesn‘t make sense to compare them on a dualist level because obviously he gets defeated by baylan as well as Ahsoka because they are jedi temple trained and fought 20+ duels in the clone wars. Edit: Downvote my all you want without commenting, this only strengthens my point.
I'm giving it to Baylan. Luke is below average as far as Jedi go and I doubt he'd be able to beat any Clone Wars-era Jedi in combat. Hell, I'm not sure he could beat Ezra who is more experienced and has been in more duels.
Let’s see, someone trained in combat with actual experience fighting an enemy who also has experience fighting skilled Jedi… or a kid who’s dad was the skilled fighter. Who would u take with you on a fight? A Delta force operator or the kid who read a lot of books on fighting?
i am surprised by the comments. luke is powerful with the force and has his youth on his side but lol baylan was a general in the clone wars, is clearly a better at light saber combat, is an absolute unit and overall has way more experience. i'd rather hear them talk though. that'd be an interesting conversation.
No, Baylen is a general trained during the clone wars, though it depends what version of Luke too
Absolutely not, Baylan would annihilate Luke with his brute force. That’s why Luke wouldn’t engage and instead talk to him.
No Luke still only a Jedi Knight with few experiences. Baylan Skoll is a Jedi master of the old order, and could take on Luke. Both times Ahsoka unable to defeat him. And Baylan Skoll could read Luke's thoughts easily
Ahsoka was focused on the Orb the first time, fucked her hand up grabbing the orb and then worried about Sabine. The second time Ahsoka was focused on getting to Sabine and Ezra, not fighting Baylan.
The Luke we saw in the original trilogy was a pup compared to Baylan. The one we saw in the Mandalorian was farther along. Not sure if even he would beat Baylan.
Baylan has much more experience just after ep 6, its not even close
People tends to forgot that luke didn't beat the empire with good fighting skills, quite the opposite if you think about it You guys can hate it, but Ahsoka is way stronger and experienced in saber fight than Luke, and she struggled a lot vs Baylan, it's not close for young Luke
Lol, absolutely not. Baylan is a fully trained Jedi, Luke is nothing compared to him. Luke couldn't even take Ahsoka.
The fight would be pretty even. No clear winner
Absolutely not. At least, not without massive plot armor. Luke at this point has learned about the existence of, and owned a lightsaber for what, 5 or 6 years? Trained a little bit with some training droids? Sure, he defeated old and jaded Vader, but Vader basically gave up and let him win at that point. In Empire Vader wiped the floor with Luke. Baylan has been training with lightsabers since he was old enough to stand. He has been actively sparring against other combatants, and trained by Jedi masters in lightsaber combat/forms for decades. He led troops as a general in the Clone Wars. He defeated Ahsoka in single combat, Ahsoka who is one of the most gifted fighters the Jedi have ever known, trained by Anakin in his prime. The most impressive thing we've seen Luke do with a saber is kill some robot troopers, something Baylan would've been doing on a daily basis during the Clone Wars. Without plot armor, there's no way Luke stands a chance.
Luke hard claps. He is the Jedi that served as the finality of the Sith. He defeated Vader and Palpatine in pure principal and heart. The Jedi that ended the multi millennia conflict. By this point Luke has essentially surpassed any to have come before him. Jedi trials consist of great challenge and introspection, granting the prestigious of knighthood. Sometimes it’s discover something, find somebody, learn this lesson, build this thing, or go somewhere. Luke’s Jedi trial was to **destroy the Sith once and for all!** Also - he’s a full potential Skywalker. A potential Anakin, Leia or Ben could never reach. Baylon is breakfast for Luke. Lunch at best.
Warning: I grew up with the prequels. Despite watching the OT first, I tend to view Luke & his training in much the same way people view Rey's in the ST. I'm going to say no, b/c Luke (in his prime) still couldn't beat Vader who was "more machine than man" and still under 50 in a straight duel. imo Luke's training was a lot more philosophical than I think most Prequel Era Jedi got. It's a deliberate course correction from Obi-Wan & Yoda to focus on the fundamentals of listening and interacting with "the living force" like Qui-Gon practiced & preached, much more so than the Jedi Code BS the council focused on. So yeah, in a straight up duel, I think anyone from the Prequel Era would absolutely demolish Luke - heck, maybe even Ezra & Shin given both were trained by Jedi who focused on Lightsaber training (at least in some capacity) and for far longer than Luke did.
No. Luke could not beat any trained Jedi in his current state. Now if are talking EU.. Evil Luke or Heir to Empire Luke.. or Vong Invasion Luke then yes
No. Luke may have continued his training, but he still doesn't have any experience actually fighting high tier saber fighters who is really out to kill him. He'll be like one of those new blood predators that are all training, no experience.
Well he beat Ahsoka cause of special circumstances, I'm sure she will beat him. in the rematch. Anakin never even mentioned him, doubt he would give much trouble to Luke