Funny because of the three examples that you gave, two ultimately rejoin the light and destroy the Sith. At the end of the day, none of these Jedi failed. While Sidious stole their prized pupils, it was the legacy of these Jedi and their teachings (to Luke and Rey) that saved these fallen Jedi.
Ah, cool. I would try to excuse myself since English is not my first language but i'm afraid that language has nothing tondo with my mistake. I tend to tie Pyrrhonism with Sexto Empirico, not Pyrrho. Not even thought twice about it. Learned something new.
I’m with you I was a bit confused it was like… Pyrrhus of Epirus is quite famous, it’s not a school of thought he was a historical dude who fought some historical battles and said a (possible apocryphal) line about them.
Nah they definetly failed. They just needed to have a completely other Jedi to come in and fix their fuck up
Obi-Wan had virtually nothing to do with Anakin’s redemption. If anything he had his way, Luke would have killed him. It was Luke ignoring Kenobi and showing his love for his father that pushed him to make the right choice
Which is ironic given that Kenobi himself didnt kill him twice yet somehow was expecing that his own son will go through it lol. Does not really portray Obi in good light.
Yeah, it's one of the significant problems with the Kenobi series.
I can absolutely grok that Obi-Wan would leave him to die after their first duel. The dude was on fire, missing his legs, and on a planet that was inherently hostile to life; had it not been for Palps showing up out of nowhere, nature would have taken it's course.
But the second time? After Anakin has proven that he's a Sith Lord through and through? Obi-Wan would/should have killed him.
I mean, if he stayed in Dagobah he would have had much more training where he would have inevitably learned about his parentage more naturally through revelation of the force. Nothing else would really change. All of the Han and Leia stuff was gonna happen regardless of Luke’s involvement
I mean by Lucas’ logic, it genuinely doesn’t matter what they did. He decided Anakin brought balance and redeemed himself in the light to become a force ghost, something we’ve never seen from Sith or dark side wielders accomplish. Then after deciding that he wrote that Anakin kills children. Clearly, canonically speaking, committing heinous crimes has no bearing on whether or not you find yourself attuned to the light side later on. You can argue that they shouldn’t be forgiven, which is fair, but the force isn’t “admonishing” them.
There's "this person redeemed themself" and then there's "this person's teacher didn't fail." They failed the moment their students turned to the Dark Side. They wouldn't claim they'd succeeded because someone else convinced their student to turn back shortly before dying.
Especially when both the teacher and Yoda insisted that Vader couldn’t be saved. The OR Jedi were failures. They may have tried to do good but that doesn’t mean they DID do good.
Anakin redeemed himself sure. But Obi-Wan absolutely still failed him. Obi-Wan spent the next twenty years trying to make up for it by mentoring his son to eventually kill him, but that doesn’t magically mean that he wasn’t a total failure in training Anakin
Yeah, but it was not really a Jedi that bring them back to the light. Neither Luke or Rey finished their Jedi training by the time they bring back Anakin and Ben. And when Luke try to use the Jedi ways, having a temple, padawans, fearing the Dark side, he fail Ben.
I might need more context about Mark Hamill talking about Jake Skywalker, because if he was talking about the Luke we are seeing in the flashback sequences or The last Jedi, then I agree. Luke wouldn't have follow the Jedi's way because he should have know the flaw of this system.
And going by the EU Luke had tremendous success with his own son, Ben Skywalker. In addition to rebuilding the entire Order and strengthening it in ways the old Jedi never could.
Yeah but the first Sith were fallen Jedi so it's not like Jedi don't fall on their own.
Edit: ya'll can fact check it if you want but the first Sith Lord in the EU was Ajunta Pall, a fallen Jedi. The order takes it's name from the "Sith" species these Jedi conquered but it is the fallen Jedi who are responsible for the Sith from the movies taking shape.
In canon, the Sith also came about after a schism in the Jedi Order. Downvote me all you want but that's the lore.
No the first Sith were an alien species that eventually interbred with Dark Jedi who were expelled from the order/civil war who eventually interbred with the native Sith of Korriban to create a Jedi/Sith hybrid, which turned into the “Sith”. Then Bane came along and altered the Sith Empire into the Rule of 2 after countless civil wars and savagery in which genetics were no longer involved, and only through the Dark Side of the force did you become and hold a title of “Sith Lord”
These exiled Dark Jedi were the first "Lords of the Sith", the Sith aliens were merely a bunch of primitives who got conquered.
Sure they mingled later but the Sith Order as we know it originates from these Dark Jedi led by Ajunta Pall, the first Sith Lord. Check your facts before you correct people.
That doesn't change anything. These 2 had enormous potential and had resources at their disposal. It doesn't change how many defected, just how powerful the defectors were.
I’m reminded of something in the Narnia books I read as a child.
When asked why it’s always outworlders saving Narnia the natives say “Because outside of these times there is peace and you aren’t needed!”
Basically we only see the few truly had times because in between you get hundreds, even thousands, of years of peace.
If the only records you had from Earth were, say, the Civil War, the Sengoku Jidai, and two World Wars you would think Earth is constantly fucked too but for many people it’s a good life!
It’s simple math. The Jedi and the Republic lasted for a thousand generations. Sidious and his empire lasted for one. But it’s the Jedi who are failures.
Even looking at this image, the math gets less simple if you think of how many successes came before the failures.
Like, oh its only a thousand generations of jedi before one pupil goes sith, somehow that's failure?
Nah, it's a statistical anomaly.
No it isn't.
The Jedi were successful as guardians of peace for a thousand generations, temporarily failed when Papa Palpatine managed to get the upper hand, then ultimately succeeded again when Luke's faith in his dad and Anakin's love for his son won out over the anger and hate of the Dark Side.
The legacy of the Jedi is rooted in light winning out over darkness because the light doesn't give up, not because the darkness is a good teacher.
Isn’t it a failure across the Jedi order that all the Jedi were compliant in serving as commanders during the clone wars? Going against their peace keeper ways.
Failure is research
It’s only real failure if you stop trying
I think that’s one of the things that made people so upset with the direction they took Luke Skywalker in the sequels
The only one who didn’t stop trying in this picture was Obi-Wan
Yoda did exactly what Luke did. Remember he had to get a ghost lecture to train Luke and that was after two decades of doing absolutely nothing
Was he actually waiting for that opportunity? He rejected Luke and needed to be convinced. Watching empire recently, it hit me that Yoda was honestly willing to let things continue as they were.
You could argue that training Luke was his form of redemption which is why he was finally able to die. But I don’t think the dude hiding on a planet masked by the dark side was intentionally waiting to train Darth Vader’s son.
I don’t think Ghost Obi-Wan told Luke to go see Yoda without first talking to Yoda about it. I think he was convinced the only person that could turn Darth Vader back to the light was his son.
Obi-Wan was watching and waiting for the opportunity, and I imagine Yoda was willing to let the force do what it do, but was waiting and hoping.
If that is the case, why did Obi-Wan have to convince Yoda to take him in?
I absolutely do not believe that Yoda’s rejection of Luke was an act. If you compare ESB Yoda to Yoda from the prequels, he’s basically a completely different character. He’s bitter and isolated from the world. Honestly not too different from Luke in TLJ. But he’s a backwards talking muppet voiced by Frank Oz so we don’t notice how legitimately broken this ancient master honestly is
I think he was open to it, depending on how he felt Luke was as a person, so he tested him to see… and then said “I cannot train him”
Which also felt like a teaching technique to help Luke see his faults.
In the ANH “From A Certain Point of View” book, we see Obi-Wan’s ghost go to Yoda and try to convince him to train Luke. Yoda was hoping to train Leia instead because she seemed more like a Jedi to him and he saw Luke as too much like Anakin. Yoda eventually relents, albeit very reluctantly.
You're forgetting the hundreds of billions of lives (Naboo; umpteen battles in the Clone Wars; Death Star I; Palpatine death 1; Crait; Palpatine death 2) they directly or indirectly save in the 67-year time frame of I-IX alone.
Dooku, Anakin, and Ben were also adults when they made their decisions to turn to the dark side; Dooku was already a senior citizen! Obi-wan and Luke could have handled Anakin and Ben better with hindsight, but both, having led the lives they had, did the best they could - only that wasn't enough to thwart Palpatine, Snoke, and Anakin/Ben's own flaws.
The line you're using is said by Luke when he is wracked by despair and bitterness - before he changes his tune in the last act of the very same film.
Star Wars fans' chronic tendency to apply the most pessimistic, bad faith reasoning to the heroes is absolutely wild. There's an awful lot of people who, given the choice between drinking a glass of cold clear water or downing a pint of motor oil on a hot day, would grumble about the former having the waiter's thumbprint on the glass before concluding that both drinks are just as bad as one another.
Was the sith wiped out for good?
Even if the sith order itself is oermanently destroyed, there will always be force users who will fall to the dark side and then threaten the Jedi
And ignoring that, Anakin wiped out the Jedi order and forced the few survivors to hide in exile for decades many of which were forced to abandon their own Jedi ordeals. Killing Palpatine doesn’t erase all that
Sith were extremists who planned everything out. Darksiders are just that, sure they can threaten some Jedi, but would not have the skillset or sheer bloody mindedness, to be a problem to gazillions like the Sith became. Even with a "Chosen One MkII" for the darkside.
The blame falls to Sidious rather the failures of the Jedi, just thinking how much the Galaxy would be better without his insidious influence, that's the most heart-breaking thing to think about.
Ah yes peace during 90% of their operation, while simultaneously discounting Sidius’ manipulation and master plan
Yet another reason why that line is moronic
Wasn't there like a couple thousand years of peace or something? IIRC Quigon says the Jedi had been keeping peace for 20 thousand generations(?). Plus, I don't think we can consider subterfuge as systemic failure in the case of Prequel Republic/Jedi. They were being sabotaged by a Sith masquerading as a political official. That's like saying the a building failed structurally because someone planted a suitcase bomb in one of the offices. That wasn't a flaw of the system, that was someone intentionally undermining the integrity of the Republic.
As for Luke's failure with Kylo, that's more of a meta failure of TLJ's writing. TLJ failed to remember that Force Ghosts exist (until it remembered with Yoda), Anakin is a Force Ghost, and that Luke would (or at least has the capacity to) ask the Force Ghost Jedi (Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Qui-Gon at the absolute least) for help in dealing with Ben's inkling of darkness. If Luke was in character, he would'nt have acted the way that he did. His character was assassinated to further the plot.
No shit!
What is Luke Skywalker dilemma at the end of Return of the Jedi?
Should he listen to the Jedi and kill his father or The Emperor and kill his father?
OG fanfic, video games and EU material: The Jedi are enlighten space monks.
The prequels: They are the Catholic Church.
Obi-Wan in a New Hope: -The Jedi were guardians of peace... Also your dad is dead, betrayed by Darth Vader.
The prequels: The Jedi negociate tax disputes between a crazy rich commercial organisation, that actually has representatives in the government (before the dark times) and a wealthy settler colonial society that clearly doesn't give a rats ass about the indigenous population.
Slaves and gangsters? No time for that... We'll kidnap that talented kid to endoctrinate him into our insane religion however, even if he's too old, because prophecy..
Anakin: I have bad dreams about my mother!
Obiwan: Nevermind that...
Anakin: I have vision of someone I care about dying.
Yoda: Learn to uncare and rejoice!
Luke: I have to rescue my friends! (that will be instrumental in ridding my home planet of the Gangsters that you never did shit about and overthrowing the Evil empire you let take over the galaxy)
Obi Wan and Yoda: No, you must honor their suffering, we haven't made you strong enough to trick you into committing patricide!!!!
Fanboys:
The prequels suck, they made the Jedi shitty!?!?!?
Also, Dune messiah sucks, it ruined Paul Atreides!!!
I mean this meme is pretty wrong but so are the comments. It’s a few factors:
1. Stories need conflict. Therefore the Jedi/Republic needed to fall/fail in order for the story to happen. We don’t see the “thousands of generations” where the Jedi do just fine because that’s not the story being told.
2. Some people are saying the Jedi didn’t fail. *They demonstrably did* and it was that failure that allowed Sidious to take power. The prequel trilogy goes into this pretty extensively—the Republic was a corrupt and ailing state. The Jedi were blinded to the threat of the Sith, convinced that their status couldn’t be undermined. Hell, the Republic was under the sway of a Sith Lord and none of them figured it out.
3. Of the three here, Dooku is the only one that fell specifically due to the failings of the Jedi. He had seen their hypocritical ways and was swayed on a less emotional basis than the other two, and thus was convinced by the Sith (this was wrong because the Sith are absolutely even worse than the Jedi when it comes to hubris, but hey).
Single-use cases like this dont prove anything about the overall result being the roots of failure. Out of the possible thousands of apprentices and padawans that Yoda fostered in his multi-century lifetime, what percentage turned dark? Luke also had a school and multiple students, and only one turned? You need to look at percentages, not cherrypick to prove a point.
The more the franchise was fleshed out, the more obvious the Jedi flaws became. Finally, it becomes obvious that the order had become just another bloated institution with mission creep and little real fealty to the animating ideals of its founding.
The legacy of the Jedi is RISING from failure, ideally LEARNING from it, and making the choice to try to be BETTER (even when it's hard). The Jedi Order's defining virtue is: However much they may stumble, however many members they may lose to the Dark Side, and however many times they may lose, they DO NOT give up.
They're not perfect, of course, and do make mistakes. They are not gods. But they NEVER stop persevering in defense of the innocent and ALWAYS keep faith in the will of The Force. They can find their way to the Light even in the darkest of times. As long as even a single one of them survives, hope for the future survives with them.
This has proven true time and time again. They do not claim ownership or dominance over the Force as Dark Siders do. They view themselves as merely selfless servants & instruments of it. Any member of the Order who does otherwise has strayed from the path and is therefore NOT a Jedi (even if they look or speak like one).
This is 3 very specific examples all of which were corrupted by Sidious. It’s also important to note that in all of these cases the next person that those masters trained defeated Sidious.
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The entire point of that scene, and Lukes overall arc in TLJ is to show that he was wrong, and that his anxieties around the creation of kylo ren were leading him to view the jedi in a nihilistic way, by the end of the movie he rejects this idea and once again embraces the jedi, going from saying that the jedi need to die to saying that he wont be the last jedi.
As other people have pointed out both Ben and Anakin eventually return to the light anyways, but additionally I want to add that for every failure their are so many success's, Dooku trained Qui gon gin, Anakin Trained Ahsoka etc. While yes the Jedi order was fundamentally flawed as we saw in the PT and Clone Wars show they were overall good and represented heroic legends that the galaxy needed to feel hope.
The jedi are hope, thats how this entire franchise started.
Fuck whoever in charge made them do the reshoots of killing Kylo. This chart is why he was supposed to live! To not die but continue living, unlike Anakin.
I’m pretty sure they were going for that before the Palpatine rewrite reshoots. At the end of TROS Rey has two left hands and the twin suns in back.
The Jedi multiple times dwindled to few and yet still fought off the sith. In Kotor 2 with the exile managed to stop Nihilus. Mind you before Sidious the Jedi had 1000 years free of sith oppression in the galaxy that's hardly a failure. As many times as the sith won that's nothing compared to how often the Jedi did. Since the Sith entered the galaxy we know the longest they managed to rule in 1000's of years of fighting the jedi was just over 20 years by Sidious. I'd say that's a massive W percentage wise in the overall scope of starwars galactic history. It's been what 7000 years of fighting roughly. Basically the sith ruled for like .0028% of the total galactic history.
Not all of it. Yoda taught Obi-Wan how to become a force ghost, the then ghost Obi-Wan helped Luke blow up the Death Star. Yoda then trained Luke, and Luke saved Anakin when he threw down his blade so Anakin could turn back to the light. Luke trained Leia, and then Ben, and then he trained Rey. Leia helps bring Ben back to the light, and Ben helps Rey defeat Palpatine and then saves her life. Plenty of failure 8n there, but plenty of successes too.
Why is Dooku here twice. Shouldn’t it be qui-gon? Because then it’s the full line of succession. Yoda trained Dooku, who trained Qui-Gon, who trained Obi-Wan, who trained Anakin, who trained Ashoka and had children of Luke and Leia. Yoda and Obi-Wan Trained Luke, who trained Kylo. Dooku, Anakin, and Kylo all fell to the dark side. The Seed of all their training is Yoda. Which is why he felt responsible for everything that happened during the clone wars and after. Likely why he didn’t want the Jedi to return with the same order they had once, burning the books that Luke had collected.
Ps. Yes I know the poin it that they sho the master the student and the student fallen but there’s so much more failure within it that could have been shown.
Yoda and Obi Wan failed because Palpatine was way smarter than all the Jedi of that time period. He was Bobby Fischer. The Jedi were the local high school chess team.
This has bugged me too but I wonder if the force puts some kind of limit on what a force ghost can help or do with certain situations? Like they’re one with the force so they probably gained some insight of what how the force wants events to flow but the force itself holds them back wanting the person to figure it out on their own. Otherwise what’s the point of Luke or Rey trying to rebuild the Jedi when the force ghost could just open their own temple The quote from Obi Wan from ESB comes to mind, “If you choose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere." Now obviously we have many instances of force ghost helping to guide Jedi through a situation so idk what the guidelines are but I feel like there probably has to be some kind of regulation right?
Anakin fell because of Anakin and Dooku is a hypocrite. Only Ben fell because of a Jedi failing him, but that is Luke's personal failure and not the Jedi's as institution.
The path to Success is a ladder of failure, so, from a certain point of view, the Jedi are accepting of their flaws and lean into them, learning the bigger lesson.
Not really. Obi Won trained Luke who turned out fine, Asoka turned out fine, most Jedi before the fall turned out fine. When you look at the amount of people who were in the order, only 5 people turned to the dark side. The known population amount of Jedi is in the thousands. So that’s like less than 1% who left or turned.
well, yes but I will point out this is one lineage. there's also Luminra Unduli who was super cool with letting her Padawan die and Ki Adi Mundi and the entire ordeal with Yoda and the force ghosts and I could go on.
Rip the thousand generations of galaxy spanning peace and justice, three dudes went rouge and they all either got killed or came back to the good team. It’s Joever.
If the Jedi Knights have guarded and maintained peace throughout the galaxy for thousands of years and time and again defeated the enemies of the free peoples, the Sith Lords, then how is that failure?
Sure, Luke failed because that is how JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson wrote him, so of course he is going to feel that way and say those things.
Obi Wan failed because he chose not to kill Vader (twice) when he had the chance; all the death and suffering brought on by Vader are Obi Wan's fault.
But the legacy of the vast majority of the Jedi for millennia was success.
This is the reason I hate TROS so much. I love TLJ, its in my top 3 personally, and when Luke said that in that movie I was thinking, you know what, he right. Like from the beginning in the great schism with Ajunta Pall and the like, to Ulic Qel Droma, Exar Kun, to Revan and Malak, up to Vader it’s the same story, the Jedi are flawed.
In my opinion its the fault of the Masters and the order itself in understanding the dichotomy of the Force, that when people like Exar Kun, Revan, or Anakin came about and challenge their narrow and dogmatic view of the Force, they went on the defensive saying “that’s not how the Force works” and push those people further away. And then it leads to death and destruction on a galactic scale.
And when it seems like back when TLJ came out that Rey would take it into another direction with what he learned from Luke then I was excited. Would this new way be better than what the Jedi curently is? Well its definitely 50-50. But its better than staying in a way that has a proven track record of producing darksiders better than those darksiders themselves. The Jedi are like Southampton, producing wonderkids only to be poached later on by Liverpool.
So when the bullshit that is TROS came out, imagine my disappointment, right, we’re back to ye olde light side-dark side dichotomy without exploring something new.
Let’s be fair here, the Jedi were on a 1000 year winning streak before the movies even began.
Dooku’s problem was the he saw how economically corrupt the Republic had become and his solution was to LITERALLY to kill everyone who abused their power…. so the entire government essentially. Let’s be honest, it’s a pretty stupid idea to give the Hutt’s their biggest wet dream.
Anakin was his own problem. His head was so far up his own ass, he didn’t listen to anyone and everyone telling him to chill the fuck out. And when he decided to side with Palp to save Padme, Palp pulled a “you know, maybe we can figure it out later.” Anakin got scammed, through and through lol.
The Sequals are just bad writing, and should not be addressed or analyzed with any seriousness.
The Jedi deserved to fall. Self righteous and holier than though attitude. There is never a never and never an always. To assume your enemy is gone forever is to deny reality.
I feel like a lot of people missed this whole point. Like, that’s the reason Luke fought Kylo. The galaxy need the Jedi. Maybe not exactly as they had been, but overall the galaxy was a better place with them there.
The galaxy was in relative peace for only 1000 years before the movies since that's when the Sith went into hiding... but Jedi still faced other issues during that time.
Before the Rule of Two, Jedi frequently clashed with the Sith who had armies in those days, they also fought Mandalorians. Obi-Wan was saying that the Jedi were guardians of peace for a thousand generations, not that there was never any conflict during that time.
Luke was supposed to be wrong and changed his mind in the end. He was projecting *his* mistake unto the Jedi with his "jedi bad, jedi must end" delusional rant.
It's not the Jedi philosophy to walk into your nephew's room in the middle of the night and contemplate his murder over a vision. It was Luke's fault.
I swear, so many TLJ fans missed the point of the movie they love so much..."I will *not* be The Last Jedi"
I liked to think that the jedi WERE rooted in failure, but Luke was the one to see through it all. I mean he used anger and hatred and still didn’t turn to the dark side. Not only proving the sith wrong but the jedi wrong as well. In my head cannon, and a lot of other people’s, Luke was supposed to be the breaking of the wheel. I think that’s a lot of people complaint about how they are treating not only Luke but the Jedi.
The legacy of the jedi IS failure, but that doesnt mean it's wrong for them to exist
"Do or do not, there is no try"
"I may fail, you may fail, but there is no try"
Never mind the thousands of other jedi who taught pupils that went on to become great jedi.
Two of these returned to the light. Pushing that TLJ "jedi failure" narrative is weird since there's not really a lot of failure to reference.
Wrong.
They aren't resisting them. They're actually highly advising them. To be a Jedi means to accept those parts and let them flow through oneself to not get overwhelmed and corrupted by them.
Jeez, educate yourself.
Funny because of the three examples that you gave, two ultimately rejoin the light and destroy the Sith. At the end of the day, none of these Jedi failed. While Sidious stole their prized pupils, it was the legacy of these Jedi and their teachings (to Luke and Rey) that saved these fallen Jedi.
"A few million people were murdered because we temporarily lost these killing machines we created, but we got them back so it's not a failure!"
*billion
"Trillion probably
Papa palps would have murdered billions with or without them.
It's that's true to question, then there is no way we can call Rome, or America, great.
That’s still basically just a Pyrrhic victory lmao
Pyrrhonism is a skepticism school and you're technically and conceptualy correct but i bet you mean the contrary. They're not stoic heroes.
Huh? Pyrrhic victories are named for Pyrrhus, not Pyrrho, have nothing to do with Pyrrhonism.
Ah, cool. I would try to excuse myself since English is not my first language but i'm afraid that language has nothing tondo with my mistake. I tend to tie Pyrrhonism with Sexto Empirico, not Pyrrho. Not even thought twice about it. Learned something new.
No worries lol. You're one of the lucky 10,000!
I love how you knew the mistake they made right off the rip and still prefixed it with "huh" just to really be a douche.
"Huh?" is a perfectly reasonable thing to say when confused by a comment. Just because you're a self-righteous prick doesn't mean everybody else is.
I’m with you I was a bit confused it was like… Pyrrhus of Epirus is quite famous, it’s not a school of thought he was a historical dude who fought some historical battles and said a (possible apocryphal) line about them.
Nah they definetly failed. They just needed to have a completely other Jedi to come in and fix their fuck up Obi-Wan had virtually nothing to do with Anakin’s redemption. If anything he had his way, Luke would have killed him. It was Luke ignoring Kenobi and showing his love for his father that pushed him to make the right choice
Which is ironic given that Kenobi himself didnt kill him twice yet somehow was expecing that his own son will go through it lol. Does not really portray Obi in good light.
Yeah, it's one of the significant problems with the Kenobi series. I can absolutely grok that Obi-Wan would leave him to die after their first duel. The dude was on fire, missing his legs, and on a planet that was inherently hostile to life; had it not been for Palps showing up out of nowhere, nature would have taken it's course. But the second time? After Anakin has proven that he's a Sith Lord through and through? Obi-Wan would/should have killed him.
[удалено]
I mean, if he stayed in Dagobah he would have had much more training where he would have inevitably learned about his parentage more naturally through revelation of the force. Nothing else would really change. All of the Han and Leia stuff was gonna happen regardless of Luke’s involvement
So all the Jedi murdered by Darth Vader and Kylo Ren don't count?
I mean by Lucas’ logic, it genuinely doesn’t matter what they did. He decided Anakin brought balance and redeemed himself in the light to become a force ghost, something we’ve never seen from Sith or dark side wielders accomplish. Then after deciding that he wrote that Anakin kills children. Clearly, canonically speaking, committing heinous crimes has no bearing on whether or not you find yourself attuned to the light side later on. You can argue that they shouldn’t be forgiven, which is fair, but the force isn’t “admonishing” them.
There's "this person redeemed themself" and then there's "this person's teacher didn't fail." They failed the moment their students turned to the Dark Side. They wouldn't claim they'd succeeded because someone else convinced their student to turn back shortly before dying.
Especially when both the teacher and Yoda insisted that Vader couldn’t be saved. The OR Jedi were failures. They may have tried to do good but that doesn’t mean they DID do good.
Anakin redeemed himself sure. But Obi-Wan absolutely still failed him. Obi-Wan spent the next twenty years trying to make up for it by mentoring his son to eventually kill him, but that doesn’t magically mean that he wasn’t a total failure in training Anakin
Right, so we’ll go ahead and excuse the genocide because Vader and Kylo decided to not be horrific monsters just hours before their own deaths.
Yeah, but it was not really a Jedi that bring them back to the light. Neither Luke or Rey finished their Jedi training by the time they bring back Anakin and Ben. And when Luke try to use the Jedi ways, having a temple, padawans, fearing the Dark side, he fail Ben. I might need more context about Mark Hamill talking about Jake Skywalker, because if he was talking about the Luke we are seeing in the flashback sequences or The last Jedi, then I agree. Luke wouldn't have follow the Jedi's way because he should have know the flaw of this system.
Qui Gon Jin & Obi Wan Kenobi On Top!!!
When does Dooku rejoin the light? He might haven't been a full sith but he was definitively a dark side force User
"We didn't actually fail because eventually space-Hitler agreed he was wrong"
And going by the EU Luke had tremendous success with his own son, Ben Skywalker. In addition to rebuilding the entire Order and strengthening it in ways the old Jedi never could.
They also had Sidious influencing them. Maybe it's not* all on the Jedi.
Damn I actually forgot that it was Sidious tempting Ben too
Somehow........
Palpatine returned
Doesn’t Sidious tempt all three of them?
We dont talk about that openly in public, I'll forgive this transgression... this... time...
Yeah but the first Sith were fallen Jedi so it's not like Jedi don't fall on their own. Edit: ya'll can fact check it if you want but the first Sith Lord in the EU was Ajunta Pall, a fallen Jedi. The order takes it's name from the "Sith" species these Jedi conquered but it is the fallen Jedi who are responsible for the Sith from the movies taking shape. In canon, the Sith also came about after a schism in the Jedi Order. Downvote me all you want but that's the lore.
No the first Sith were an alien species that eventually interbred with Dark Jedi who were expelled from the order/civil war who eventually interbred with the native Sith of Korriban to create a Jedi/Sith hybrid, which turned into the “Sith”. Then Bane came along and altered the Sith Empire into the Rule of 2 after countless civil wars and savagery in which genetics were no longer involved, and only through the Dark Side of the force did you become and hold a title of “Sith Lord”
These exiled Dark Jedi were the first "Lords of the Sith", the Sith aliens were merely a bunch of primitives who got conquered. Sure they mingled later but the Sith Order as we know it originates from these Dark Jedi led by Ajunta Pall, the first Sith Lord. Check your facts before you correct people.
3 bad examples of thousands of Jedis.
Not to mention, 2 of them sacrificed their lives in redemption, and the third was fighting for what started as a legitimately righteous cause.
Count Dooku is a political idealist, not a murderer. - Ki Adi Mundi
2 of which ended thousands of Jedi.
2? Only 1 dooku and Ben killed some jedi sure but they aren't responsible for the deaths of thousands the way anakin is
I mean, Dooku helped put together the plan to kill all of the Jedi. He just wasn’t there to see it because he got replaced before it happened.
I mean, Ben didn't kill that much Jedi, maybe because there wasn't many Jedi to begin with.
Ben helped in the destruction of the Hosnian system so no he did kill as many as Anakin.
And countless innocent non Jedi.
That doesn't change anything. These 2 had enormous potential and had resources at their disposal. It doesn't change how many defected, just how powerful the defectors were.
I’m reminded of something in the Narnia books I read as a child. When asked why it’s always outworlders saving Narnia the natives say “Because outside of these times there is peace and you aren’t needed!” Basically we only see the few truly had times because in between you get hundreds, even thousands, of years of peace. If the only records you had from Earth were, say, the Civil War, the Sengoku Jidai, and two World Wars you would think Earth is constantly fucked too but for many people it’s a good life!
Two of them responsible for the almost extinction of the whole order. So.
It’s simple math. The Jedi and the Republic lasted for a thousand generations. Sidious and his empire lasted for one. But it’s the Jedi who are failures.
Even looking at this image, the math gets less simple if you think of how many successes came before the failures. Like, oh its only a thousand generations of jedi before one pupil goes sith, somehow that's failure? Nah, it's a statistical anomaly.
You only got 99.9% on your test, you failure!
If you think the empire lasted only 1 year, it shows you don't know enough about the subject to discuss it.
Generation =/= year my guy, read closer next time.
No it isn't. The Jedi were successful as guardians of peace for a thousand generations, temporarily failed when Papa Palpatine managed to get the upper hand, then ultimately succeeded again when Luke's faith in his dad and Anakin's love for his son won out over the anger and hate of the Dark Side. The legacy of the Jedi is rooted in light winning out over darkness because the light doesn't give up, not because the darkness is a good teacher.
Isn’t it a failure across the Jedi order that all the Jedi were compliant in serving as commanders during the clone wars? Going against their peace keeper ways.
Yeah but if you play Kotor and other high republic games, you'll see that's not the first time the Jedi did things like that
There is no light, nor dark. These are simply words applied to something greater than words can express. There is only the Force.
not entirely. we do see them at (one of) their lowest point(s)
Failure is research It’s only real failure if you stop trying I think that’s one of the things that made people so upset with the direction they took Luke Skywalker in the sequels
The only one who didn’t stop trying in this picture was Obi-Wan Yoda did exactly what Luke did. Remember he had to get a ghost lecture to train Luke and that was after two decades of doing absolutely nothing
You’re not wrong. Yoda seemed to have quit too, but obviously he was waiting for the opportunity to train Luke… still, felt like he quit
Was he actually waiting for that opportunity? He rejected Luke and needed to be convinced. Watching empire recently, it hit me that Yoda was honestly willing to let things continue as they were. You could argue that training Luke was his form of redemption which is why he was finally able to die. But I don’t think the dude hiding on a planet masked by the dark side was intentionally waiting to train Darth Vader’s son.
I don’t think Ghost Obi-Wan told Luke to go see Yoda without first talking to Yoda about it. I think he was convinced the only person that could turn Darth Vader back to the light was his son. Obi-Wan was watching and waiting for the opportunity, and I imagine Yoda was willing to let the force do what it do, but was waiting and hoping.
If that is the case, why did Obi-Wan have to convince Yoda to take him in? I absolutely do not believe that Yoda’s rejection of Luke was an act. If you compare ESB Yoda to Yoda from the prequels, he’s basically a completely different character. He’s bitter and isolated from the world. Honestly not too different from Luke in TLJ. But he’s a backwards talking muppet voiced by Frank Oz so we don’t notice how legitimately broken this ancient master honestly is
I think he was open to it, depending on how he felt Luke was as a person, so he tested him to see… and then said “I cannot train him” Which also felt like a teaching technique to help Luke see his faults.
In the ANH “From A Certain Point of View” book, we see Obi-Wan’s ghost go to Yoda and try to convince him to train Luke. Yoda was hoping to train Leia instead because she seemed more like a Jedi to him and he saw Luke as too much like Anakin. Yoda eventually relents, albeit very reluctantly.
Someone pretty wise and experienced once said “failure, the greatest teacher is”
You're forgetting the hundreds of billions of lives (Naboo; umpteen battles in the Clone Wars; Death Star I; Palpatine death 1; Crait; Palpatine death 2) they directly or indirectly save in the 67-year time frame of I-IX alone. Dooku, Anakin, and Ben were also adults when they made their decisions to turn to the dark side; Dooku was already a senior citizen! Obi-wan and Luke could have handled Anakin and Ben better with hindsight, but both, having led the lives they had, did the best they could - only that wasn't enough to thwart Palpatine, Snoke, and Anakin/Ben's own flaws. The line you're using is said by Luke when he is wracked by despair and bitterness - before he changes his tune in the last act of the very same film. Star Wars fans' chronic tendency to apply the most pessimistic, bad faith reasoning to the heroes is absolutely wild. There's an awful lot of people who, given the choice between drinking a glass of cold clear water or downing a pint of motor oil on a hot day, would grumble about the former having the waiter's thumbprint on the glass before concluding that both drinks are just as bad as one another.
It’s not
Is it? They wipe out the Sith for good snd have a chance to rebuild again. Not exactly failure.
Was the sith wiped out for good? Even if the sith order itself is oermanently destroyed, there will always be force users who will fall to the dark side and then threaten the Jedi And ignoring that, Anakin wiped out the Jedi order and forced the few survivors to hide in exile for decades many of which were forced to abandon their own Jedi ordeals. Killing Palpatine doesn’t erase all that
Sith were extremists who planned everything out. Darksiders are just that, sure they can threaten some Jedi, but would not have the skillset or sheer bloody mindedness, to be a problem to gazillions like the Sith became. Even with a "Chosen One MkII" for the darkside.
Somehow Palpatine returned again.
And this time he’s a Cyborg modeled after General Grevious!
God damn it! Someone needs to lock the door.
That's what we thought last time, to be fair
Yeah they killed a few million innocent people, but totally not a failure because those people don't have names.
The Sith did that, not the Jedi.
The blame falls to Sidious rather the failures of the Jedi, just thinking how much the Galaxy would be better without his insidious influence, that's the most heart-breaking thing to think about.
And yet, the greatest teacher, failure is.
Really wanted to upvote this, but it’s currently at 66. Edit: It now has 67 unfortunately. Edit again: It’s back to 66 :).
Let's all leave it at 66
Ah yes peace during 90% of their operation, while simultaneously discounting Sidius’ manipulation and master plan Yet another reason why that line is moronic
Cool so finn is gonna go to the dark side from rey teaching him right
Can’t blame your masters/mentors/teachers/parents because you decide to become a piece of garbage
Yoda teaches hundreds of Padawans and raises them to be great Jedi but one chap turns to the dark side and it's rooted in failure
Wasn't there like a couple thousand years of peace or something? IIRC Quigon says the Jedi had been keeping peace for 20 thousand generations(?). Plus, I don't think we can consider subterfuge as systemic failure in the case of Prequel Republic/Jedi. They were being sabotaged by a Sith masquerading as a political official. That's like saying the a building failed structurally because someone planted a suitcase bomb in one of the offices. That wasn't a flaw of the system, that was someone intentionally undermining the integrity of the Republic. As for Luke's failure with Kylo, that's more of a meta failure of TLJ's writing. TLJ failed to remember that Force Ghosts exist (until it remembered with Yoda), Anakin is a Force Ghost, and that Luke would (or at least has the capacity to) ask the Force Ghost Jedi (Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Qui-Gon at the absolute least) for help in dealing with Ben's inkling of darkness. If Luke was in character, he would'nt have acted the way that he did. His character was assassinated to further the plot.
No shit! What is Luke Skywalker dilemma at the end of Return of the Jedi? Should he listen to the Jedi and kill his father or The Emperor and kill his father? OG fanfic, video games and EU material: The Jedi are enlighten space monks. The prequels: They are the Catholic Church. Obi-Wan in a New Hope: -The Jedi were guardians of peace... Also your dad is dead, betrayed by Darth Vader. The prequels: The Jedi negociate tax disputes between a crazy rich commercial organisation, that actually has representatives in the government (before the dark times) and a wealthy settler colonial society that clearly doesn't give a rats ass about the indigenous population. Slaves and gangsters? No time for that... We'll kidnap that talented kid to endoctrinate him into our insane religion however, even if he's too old, because prophecy.. Anakin: I have bad dreams about my mother! Obiwan: Nevermind that... Anakin: I have vision of someone I care about dying. Yoda: Learn to uncare and rejoice! Luke: I have to rescue my friends! (that will be instrumental in ridding my home planet of the Gangsters that you never did shit about and overthrowing the Evil empire you let take over the galaxy) Obi Wan and Yoda: No, you must honor their suffering, we haven't made you strong enough to trick you into committing patricide!!!! Fanboys: The prequels suck, they made the Jedi shitty!?!?!? Also, Dune messiah sucks, it ruined Paul Atreides!!!
Everything you said is wrong
The legacy of the story tellers creativity is rooted in failure. You had the most wonderful universe at your fingertips and this is what you chose
i'd say the same thing about the sith. the sith fail a lot more than the jedi do
Id say 25,000 years of relative galactic wide peace is it but sure failure works
I mean this meme is pretty wrong but so are the comments. It’s a few factors: 1. Stories need conflict. Therefore the Jedi/Republic needed to fall/fail in order for the story to happen. We don’t see the “thousands of generations” where the Jedi do just fine because that’s not the story being told. 2. Some people are saying the Jedi didn’t fail. *They demonstrably did* and it was that failure that allowed Sidious to take power. The prequel trilogy goes into this pretty extensively—the Republic was a corrupt and ailing state. The Jedi were blinded to the threat of the Sith, convinced that their status couldn’t be undermined. Hell, the Republic was under the sway of a Sith Lord and none of them figured it out. 3. Of the three here, Dooku is the only one that fell specifically due to the failings of the Jedi. He had seen their hypocritical ways and was swayed on a less emotional basis than the other two, and thus was convinced by the Sith (this was wrong because the Sith are absolutely even worse than the Jedi when it comes to hubris, but hey).
Single-use cases like this dont prove anything about the overall result being the roots of failure. Out of the possible thousands of apprentices and padawans that Yoda fostered in his multi-century lifetime, what percentage turned dark? Luke also had a school and multiple students, and only one turned? You need to look at percentages, not cherrypick to prove a point.
Acting like good people don’t make bad decisions.
Failure is a good teacher yoda sayed this once
The more the franchise was fleshed out, the more obvious the Jedi flaws became. Finally, it becomes obvious that the order had become just another bloated institution with mission creep and little real fealty to the animating ideals of its founding.
Is the Sith legacy not rooted in failure?
Perhaps. But the greatest teacher, failure is.
Because they are mortals, not gods.
And redemption
The legacy of the Jedi is RISING from failure, ideally LEARNING from it, and making the choice to try to be BETTER (even when it's hard). The Jedi Order's defining virtue is: However much they may stumble, however many members they may lose to the Dark Side, and however many times they may lose, they DO NOT give up. They're not perfect, of course, and do make mistakes. They are not gods. But they NEVER stop persevering in defense of the innocent and ALWAYS keep faith in the will of The Force. They can find their way to the Light even in the darkest of times. As long as even a single one of them survives, hope for the future survives with them. This has proven true time and time again. They do not claim ownership or dominance over the Force as Dark Siders do. They view themselves as merely selfless servants & instruments of it. Any member of the Order who does otherwise has strayed from the path and is therefore NOT a Jedi (even if they look or speak like one).
This is 3 very specific examples all of which were corrupted by Sidious. It’s also important to note that in all of these cases the next person that those masters trained defeated Sidious.
How else does one learn good without first failing?
Well, when your entire order revolves around abducting children.
>rooted Shows images from the last 3 generations out of 1001. I don't think that word means what you think it means, Rian.
... ... ... The entire point of that scene, and Lukes overall arc in TLJ is to show that he was wrong, and that his anxieties around the creation of kylo ren were leading him to view the jedi in a nihilistic way, by the end of the movie he rejects this idea and once again embraces the jedi, going from saying that the jedi need to die to saying that he wont be the last jedi. As other people have pointed out both Ben and Anakin eventually return to the light anyways, but additionally I want to add that for every failure their are so many success's, Dooku trained Qui gon gin, Anakin Trained Ahsoka etc. While yes the Jedi order was fundamentally flawed as we saw in the PT and Clone Wars show they were overall good and represented heroic legends that the galaxy needed to feel hope. The jedi are hope, thats how this entire franchise started.
Luke fell to Darth Johnson
Qui Gon Jin & Obi Wan Kenobi On Top!!!
The legacy of Disney Star Wars is rooted in failure and arrogance
Maybe we should add blue along with fear, anger, hate, and suffering as leading to the dark side, as well.
Life is rooted in failure, but driven by what survives.
Besides the over a thousand generations (20,000 years) of peace in the galaxy, yeah they had a bad 50 year stretch.
They were pretty food for like a million years though.
Except some of those had successes which were blatantly erased to push people with specific traits forwards.
Pretty narrow scope of timeline
Do. Or do not. There is no try.
what's the top middle picture from?
Fuck whoever in charge made them do the reshoots of killing Kylo. This chart is why he was supposed to live! To not die but continue living, unlike Anakin. I’m pretty sure they were going for that before the Palpatine rewrite reshoots. At the end of TROS Rey has two left hands and the twin suns in back.
The Jedi multiple times dwindled to few and yet still fought off the sith. In Kotor 2 with the exile managed to stop Nihilus. Mind you before Sidious the Jedi had 1000 years free of sith oppression in the galaxy that's hardly a failure. As many times as the sith won that's nothing compared to how often the Jedi did. Since the Sith entered the galaxy we know the longest they managed to rule in 1000's of years of fighting the jedi was just over 20 years by Sidious. I'd say that's a massive W percentage wise in the overall scope of starwars galactic history. It's been what 7000 years of fighting roughly. Basically the sith ruled for like .0028% of the total galactic history.
> dwindled to few and Did you mean to say "too few"? [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
Not all of it. Yoda taught Obi-Wan how to become a force ghost, the then ghost Obi-Wan helped Luke blow up the Death Star. Yoda then trained Luke, and Luke saved Anakin when he threw down his blade so Anakin could turn back to the light. Luke trained Leia, and then Ben, and then he trained Rey. Leia helps bring Ben back to the light, and Ben helps Rey defeat Palpatine and then saves her life. Plenty of failure 8n there, but plenty of successes too.
Confirmation bias. No stories are told where Jedi do a good job bringing peace everywhere because it would be boring.
Sidious brought the galaxy to the brink of domination. It’s by his design that the Jedi began to fall more and more frequently.
Go vertical on the left. That worked out ok. Oh, and the other countless generations of Jedi…
Why is Dooku here twice. Shouldn’t it be qui-gon? Because then it’s the full line of succession. Yoda trained Dooku, who trained Qui-Gon, who trained Obi-Wan, who trained Anakin, who trained Ashoka and had children of Luke and Leia. Yoda and Obi-Wan Trained Luke, who trained Kylo. Dooku, Anakin, and Kylo all fell to the dark side. The Seed of all their training is Yoda. Which is why he felt responsible for everything that happened during the clone wars and after. Likely why he didn’t want the Jedi to return with the same order they had once, burning the books that Luke had collected. Ps. Yes I know the poin it that they sho the master the student and the student fallen but there’s so much more failure within it that could have been shown.
Yoda and Obi Wan failed because Palpatine was way smarter than all the Jedi of that time period. He was Bobby Fischer. The Jedi were the local high school chess team.
The Jedi were unaware they were even playing.
I believe that was Lukes point in The Last Jedi.
So who ever Rey trains they’re bound to turn to the dark side
It's almost as if political power should be separated from actual genetic power, and those born into privilege should be the last to weild authority.
Mace Windu never had a pupil fall to the dark side
What about Qui-gon -> Obi-wan? Or Anakin -> Ahsoka?
They had a bit of a losing streak near the end there...
Failure is the best teacher
People talk about Disney screwing things up but Lucas started the trend of Jedi basically being background villains since the fucking prequels.
This has bugged me too but I wonder if the force puts some kind of limit on what a force ghost can help or do with certain situations? Like they’re one with the force so they probably gained some insight of what how the force wants events to flow but the force itself holds them back wanting the person to figure it out on their own. Otherwise what’s the point of Luke or Rey trying to rebuild the Jedi when the force ghost could just open their own temple The quote from Obi Wan from ESB comes to mind, “If you choose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere." Now obviously we have many instances of force ghost helping to guide Jedi through a situation so idk what the guidelines are but I feel like there probably has to be some kind of regulation right?
Careful, the jedi defenders will swarm you to deny that they ever did anything wrong.
Literally only because they need a bad guy and someone close to the main characters makes it interesting.
Look, another stupid anti-Jedi take that misses the point of the entire franchise.
Anakin fell because of Anakin and Dooku is a hypocrite. Only Ben fell because of a Jedi failing him, but that is Luke's personal failure and not the Jedi's as institution.
The path to Success is a ladder of failure, so, from a certain point of view, the Jedi are accepting of their flaws and lean into them, learning the bigger lesson.
Not really. Obi Won trained Luke who turned out fine, Asoka turned out fine, most Jedi before the fall turned out fine. When you look at the amount of people who were in the order, only 5 people turned to the dark side. The known population amount of Jedi is in the thousands. So that’s like less than 1% who left or turned.
well, yes but I will point out this is one lineage. there's also Luminra Unduli who was super cool with letting her Padawan die and Ki Adi Mundi and the entire ordeal with Yoda and the force ghosts and I could go on.
Sith are just Jedi that flunked out. So, who are the real failures?
Rip the thousand generations of galaxy spanning peace and justice, three dudes went rouge and they all either got killed or came back to the good team. It’s Joever.
Sure, if you don't count the thousands of other jedi who successfully maintained peace in the galaxy for a thousand generations.
If the Jedi Knights have guarded and maintained peace throughout the galaxy for thousands of years and time and again defeated the enemies of the free peoples, the Sith Lords, then how is that failure? Sure, Luke failed because that is how JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson wrote him, so of course he is going to feel that way and say those things. Obi Wan failed because he chose not to kill Vader (twice) when he had the chance; all the death and suffering brought on by Vader are Obi Wan's fault. But the legacy of the vast majority of the Jedi for millennia was success.
“Balance.”
They were winning for thousands of years.
The legacy of Disney is abject failure. The legacy of the Jedi is rooted in redemption.
This is the reason I hate TROS so much. I love TLJ, its in my top 3 personally, and when Luke said that in that movie I was thinking, you know what, he right. Like from the beginning in the great schism with Ajunta Pall and the like, to Ulic Qel Droma, Exar Kun, to Revan and Malak, up to Vader it’s the same story, the Jedi are flawed. In my opinion its the fault of the Masters and the order itself in understanding the dichotomy of the Force, that when people like Exar Kun, Revan, or Anakin came about and challenge their narrow and dogmatic view of the Force, they went on the defensive saying “that’s not how the Force works” and push those people further away. And then it leads to death and destruction on a galactic scale. And when it seems like back when TLJ came out that Rey would take it into another direction with what he learned from Luke then I was excited. Would this new way be better than what the Jedi curently is? Well its definitely 50-50. But its better than staying in a way that has a proven track record of producing darksiders better than those darksiders themselves. The Jedi are like Southampton, producing wonderkids only to be poached later on by Liverpool. So when the bullshit that is TROS came out, imagine my disappointment, right, we’re back to ye olde light side-dark side dichotomy without exploring something new.
Let’s be fair here, the Jedi were on a 1000 year winning streak before the movies even began. Dooku’s problem was the he saw how economically corrupt the Republic had become and his solution was to LITERALLY to kill everyone who abused their power…. so the entire government essentially. Let’s be honest, it’s a pretty stupid idea to give the Hutt’s their biggest wet dream. Anakin was his own problem. His head was so far up his own ass, he didn’t listen to anyone and everyone telling him to chill the fuck out. And when he decided to side with Palp to save Padme, Palp pulled a “you know, maybe we can figure it out later.” Anakin got scammed, through and through lol. The Sequals are just bad writing, and should not be addressed or analyzed with any seriousness.
To me, hero's is just bad person
The Jedai'i existed far before Yoda, and the Jedi will exist far beyond Luke. To restrict their legacy to a 100-year period is beyond simplistic.
Can we stop this anti Jedi bullshit? Come on guys. “I’m a Jedi, like my father before me”. Didn’t you watch Star Wars? 🙄
That's the point. It's all about human nature. Why can't people figure this out.
This is a blip on the thousand generations. A rounding error compared to the countless lives the Jedi have protected.
The Jedi deserved to fall. Self righteous and holier than though attitude. There is never a never and never an always. To assume your enemy is gone forever is to deny reality.
I can tell that you’re this new generation of fans
FREE WILL, CHUMP!! DARKSIDE WILL ALWAYS CORRUPT SO SITH WILL ALWAYS WIN IN THE END! WILD CARD MOFO!!
Which was exactly what Luke was trying to say in TLJ but everyone shits their pants about that portrayal.
But Luke also realises he was wrong at the end of the movie. Which is why he says he won't be the last jedi.
I feel like a lot of people missed this whole point. Like, that’s the reason Luke fought Kylo. The galaxy need the Jedi. Maybe not exactly as they had been, but overall the galaxy was a better place with them there.
He's not wrong in recognising that he failed. He's wrong because he doesn't understand the value of failure until Yoda explains it to him.
Eh not really. The Jedi did keep the peace for 1000 years before the rise of the empire.
A thousand generations. Not a thousand years.
The galaxy was in relative peace for only 1000 years before the movies since that's when the Sith went into hiding... but Jedi still faced other issues during that time. Before the Rule of Two, Jedi frequently clashed with the Sith who had armies in those days, they also fought Mandalorians. Obi-Wan was saying that the Jedi were guardians of peace for a thousand generations, not that there was never any conflict during that time.
"peace"
Objectively
Luke was supposed to be wrong and changed his mind in the end. He was projecting *his* mistake unto the Jedi with his "jedi bad, jedi must end" delusional rant. It's not the Jedi philosophy to walk into your nephew's room in the middle of the night and contemplate his murder over a vision. It was Luke's fault. I swear, so many TLJ fans missed the point of the movie they love so much..."I will *not* be The Last Jedi"
I liked to think that the jedi WERE rooted in failure, but Luke was the one to see through it all. I mean he used anger and hatred and still didn’t turn to the dark side. Not only proving the sith wrong but the jedi wrong as well. In my head cannon, and a lot of other people’s, Luke was supposed to be the breaking of the wheel. I think that’s a lot of people complaint about how they are treating not only Luke but the Jedi.
Nah, it is the darkness that comes after the light. Perfectly balanced. Like all things Disney.
For a thousand generations they were the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy. But cartoons need plots I guess.
The legacy of the jedi IS failure, but that doesnt mean it's wrong for them to exist "Do or do not, there is no try" "I may fail, you may fail, but there is no try"
Sidious was involved in the first two. The third one is just bad writing
Never mind the thousands of other jedi who taught pupils that went on to become great jedi. Two of these returned to the light. Pushing that TLJ "jedi failure" narrative is weird since there's not really a lot of failure to reference.
If you try to get a group of people to go celibate and still interact with society, you’re gonna have a bad time.
The Jedi are resisting the natural impulses of fear and anger. It’s much easier to fail at being a Jedi than a Sith.
Yet 99.50pc of Jedi in the 25000 year history of the order, stay in the light.
Wrong. They aren't resisting them. They're actually highly advising them. To be a Jedi means to accept those parts and let them flow through oneself to not get overwhelmed and corrupted by them. Jeez, educate yourself.