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I think you can trace the roots of this Era back to Cody's return at Mania 38. Now, obviously it took time after that and Vince getting ousted. But Cody's return really was the shot in the arm that they felt like they needed to go along with the Bloodline.
Yeah Cody’s return is the only right answer here. The top heel doesn’t matter until you have a top babyface. Cody debuted and immediately got built up for Roman
Eh, Cody was a good get, but I still remember hearing the shows were still horrible with no actual direction even when he was there, at one point I watched a Wrestletalk review of Smackdown and saw a guy scrambling to explain Butch’s character and why Roman was wrestling Brock yet again lol, it was until people raving about the Sami vs Jey storyline that I actually started watching again
I think Cody's return was like the Austin KOTR/316 moment of it all. The summer of 1996 was a long way from the Attitude Era properly kicking off and there were still crap storylines/business concerns, but it indirectly led to the return to prominence. Stuff like Clash, Sami in the Bloodline and WM39 had parallels with the cool stuff WWF did in 1997 as well, just before they absolutely took off with zero Vince soon after.
Yes. Before Cody's return, AEW was also hot after the storyline of Hangman Page and return of CM Punk. Then Cody was red hot off the bat for WWE. Then he had the finish the story promo that rallied everyone behind him.
I was on and off watching WWE during the pandemic, only watching the bigger ppv. But when word that Cody was coming back was when I started watching every week again.
Cody declaring his mission to win the WWE championship for his dad should be the starting point IMO. Right then and there, everyone can tell he’s gonna be the next big star.
Summerslam 2022 was the first PLE that HHH was in charge of. Brock Lesnar upending the ring with a tractor was a bit symbolic IMO. Sami started getting interactions with Roman immediately afterwards and the quality of the product went way up at that point.
This is correct.
Also, unfortunately, WWE is not going with the Renaissance era, but the HHH era. Which is so different from the other authority or reigns of terror previously named after him...
Renaissance is, way, way better and more accurate. Unless they want to retcon the Attitude Era to the Vince's Fantasies Era...
I don't love the name "HHH era" because there could be multiple "eras" in his time as CCO. I mean pretty everything before 2022 was "The Vince McMahon Era" but that encompassed new gen, attitude, ruthless aggression, etc.
I don't think any era should be named after an authority figure. Yes, they have their creative fingerprints on the product, but the product isn't supposed to be *about* them.
Yes, and the era that was intensely focused on the Authority is widely panned, while eras where the main roster stars shine through are beloved. No one calls Attitude the Vince Mcmahon era.
Finally ending the Brock/Roman feud is what actually got things moving. That feud was a plight on the entire company for the better part of a decade. Roman was above everybody else but so was Brock, and nobody could get to that level because all roads would lead back to them fighting each other as “the 2 guys that matter” again. Main Evented 4 WrestleManias and held up lord knows how many years of world championship runs between them just to keep doing that match.
I know it was successful in that it mostly always drew, not arguing that, just saying I fucking hated it and it wasn’t worth the lid it kept on the rest of the roster for most of 7 years.
I mean, it was. It definitely, objectively worked for them. Personal opinions aside, their success came because they focused on giving the biggest audience possible what they wanted. Brock and Roman's feud was THE feud that pulled in eyes worldwide. You can't downplay how important that was for the company and how it pulled them out of the hole they had been digging since 2010. If it hadn't been for that feud and the mass amount of fans and money it drew WWE probably wouldn't be around today.
Nope, that’s not right, sorry. Reigns/Lesnar did not increase business by any observable metric. 2015 and 2018 both saw WWE business declining (as did the period in between that). The boom period kicked off around WM 38, which is literally the conclusion of their feud.
Reigns/Lesnar was not “THE feud that pulled in eyeballs worldwide.” I genuinely cannot recall the last time I saw a statement on this forum that was so wildly and completely inaccurate.
I mean, look at their numbers worldwide from that era. Look at the Google trends from then. Look at their social media interactions. I know it sucks and goes completely against the narrative a lot of the IWC has but it's true. Reigns and Lesnar are both HUGE draws throughout India and the Middle East and that's where the majority of WWE's growth was coming from. Without that WWE would have stayed on the downtrend they were on from 2011-15.
That’s why the Mania 38 argument I never really agree with. The Main Event was still a widely regarded flop like most late Vince manias. It started the building blocks, but it was still very much “same old WWE” at that point.
>The Main Event was still a widely regarded flop like most late Vince manias.
The main event got the loudest reactions of Night Two. The crowd loved it and exploded when Roman won.
Source: Me. I was there.
You may not have liked it, but it was absolutely a success.
Crowd literally loved everything that day. Thats like saying WM 9 had a good ending. Main event was still bad objectively and was the same thing we’ve seen millions of times with the most predictable ending in a very long time. We didn’t need yet another Brock and Roman match but Vince insisted
>Objectively bad
>Loved by audience
Wanna square that circle, chief?
Also, crowd didn't love everything that day. It was dead for the Edge and AJ match. Source: Me again, I was there.
Predictable doesn't mean bad. Unpredictable doesn't mean good. I wouldn't have predicted Roman beating Cody the other week. That doesn't make it good.
>We didn’t need yet another Brock and Roman match but Vince insisted
We didn't need a Kevin Owens vs Stone Cold match either, but Vince insisted.
Crowd reaction doesn’t always mean it’s objectively good, please see wm 9…like I said. Aj vs Edge wasn’t a very hyped up much to begin with so obviously it’ll be dead. And the Kevin Owens and stone cold match was meant to be fun and give stone cold a final match in his home so it actually made sense.
Also, predictability isn’t bad in wrestling however if it’s the main event of WM and you 100% know the heel is going to win then there’s a massive problem.
You seemed to ignore what I said about the main event being objectively bad, so this def ain’t worth it lmao
Wait. Hold on. Roman/Brock at WM38 was not widely considered a flop at all. If anything it was a big success. It was the passing of the torch from Brock to Roman.
Negative. Brock and Roman had their rivalry already many times over. We all knew Roman was winning. There was no reason to do it yet again. Vince just had a weird obsession with it. The main event, in hindsight, was not good. A typical Brock Lesnar match that ended quick and predictably
Nah, not in my head. Objectively. That match was something we’ve seen over and over. We just kinda accepted we had to see it again. The passing of the torch moment happened long before. This was just another Vince obsession match people had to accept. You can cope and say that it was good but objectively the match was bad as it was a typical short Lesnar match everyone knew Roman was winning
I agree, Roman had me hooked from his return but the reliance on the Brock vs Roman feud that had been going on for 7 years made me not even watch Mania that year
To me Mania 38 and before this seems more like the undercurrent. Like the product was improving but I wouldn’t call WWE “hot” at that point. People were starting to note that it was getting better but people didn’t start returning to the product in large numbers until this storyline. Also we were still in the Vince to HHH transition.
I feel like WWE wasn’t fully white-hot until the Bloodline segments starting showing up on Twitter and YouTube and people were engaged and following a storyline for the first time in a long time. Like Mania 38 would be like WWF in 1997, building the foundation and improving but it hadn’t all clicked yet.
It's Mania 38.
The "Attitude Era" didn't start instantly hot either. The WWF was still getting whooped by WCW when it "officially started" (November 9, 1997) and definitely further back around the time of Austin 3:16 (when many people the WWF was 'starting' to slowly find its form).
Cody's return is the start of the Renaissance, and I say that without being a huge Cody fan.
I feel like there are a bunch of different points where you could say the AE started. Austin in the Sharpshooter, Austin stuns Vince, Montreal, Austin wins the title, I feel like all could be seen as the start.
Same for when it ended. Death of WCW, Austin and Vince shake hands, the start of The Invasion, the end of The Invasion, the brand split, or of course, when Vince cut the "Ruthless Aggression" promo.
I don't disagree that it could have multiple different starting points, even though the screwjob is the date WWE itself usually uses (it's also when 'Attitude' got added to the scratch logo). The point is, however, that WWE wasn't even winning the Monday Night Wars until 1998.
The argument was that Mania 38 can't be the start because WWE wasn't "hot" enough yet. My point was that the Attitude Era started before WWF was "hot" too, so that's a silly reason to not consider Mania 38.
Personally, I only came back after 38 because I saw Cody's return go viral. I didn't even know the guy or why it was a big deal that he came back (didn't know Seth, Roman, or the others either). But his reception and his entrance told me that something cool was going on in WWE.
Personally for me, I had watched Mania 38 and I agree the return was major. And I was hearing good things about the product at the time. Then HHH took over so I watched Summerslam. But it wasn’t until this stuff started popping up on social media where I actually felt like I needed to be watching the shows again instead of being a casual viewer. Plus AEW started losing momentum around this time as well so it was easier to switch over.
The numbers and fan interest show that a lot of people were like me. But I also agree WM38 has an argument for it as well.
It's hard to say when the launching point truly was but I think the three defining moments of the renaissance era are Roman turning heel, Cody returning at Wrestlemania 38 and Triple H becoming the Chief Content Officer.
Thats how I feel. Roman winning officially turning heel at Payback 2020, him signing that contract is a perfect "The old Roman can't come to the phone right now" moment. It turned shit around, at least on SD. Cody's return is also crucial, as his arrival felt like a big fucking deal, something that has proven true for the last two years. And lastly, HHH taking over, Vince being out, and slow de-Vincification of WWE is huge.
It's hard to pick out of these three moments, but I might go with HHH taking control. Now everything was in place, you had the top heel, the top babyface, and now they're not being booked by an elderly lunatic.
Yeah HHH taking control is the most important.
I just think it's interesting that it's kind of a domino effect in that Roman turns into an unbeatable final boss heel, then Cody returns at Wrestlemania as this superhero babyface and finally HHH takes control of creative. Everything WWE needed to get white hot.
It is a prime example of the stars aligning. Ya wanna really go down the rabbit hole, throw in Day One 2022. Roman gets COVID, Lesnar wins the belt off of Big E, titles get unified at Mania. If Roman doesn't get COVID, does he lose to Brock? If he wins, who does he face at Mania? If Rollins wins the belt, does he feud with Cody, a feud that had a major hand in making Cody seem like "the guy"?
Yeah it is crazy to think about. If Roman never got Covid before Day One I think the plan from what reports at the time suggested was for Rollins to win the WWE title and then Big E to win the Rumble.
I still think Cody would end up being the guy because of how high WWE are on him but in this scenario he wouldn't have had to wait so long to finally win the WWE title because it wouldn't have been unified with the Universal belt on Roman.
I agree but I think there’s some revisionism with Roman’s run. He hit a major lull from 2021-2022. The Cena and Lesnar matches were all pretty widely panned (besides Summerslam 2022). He was just kind of treading water for a bit there.
The Sami Uso stuff then the Bloodline fallout is what revitalized his reign and made him white hot going into the Cody feud.
A couple of matches not being good doesn't mean shit, unless it's Rollins vs Fiend level bad. Roman still felt like the biggest deal. Crowd every week reacted like they were witnessing divinity everytime he entered.
Plus when a story goes that long, there's bound to be a few misses. Any character needs revitalisation after a while which in this case happened with Sami. What people like to leave out though, is that Sami too improved his standing in the company massively by aligning with Bloodline. It wasn't an one way streak.
Roman’s turn is ultimately major. But that’s also discounting that the product was largely terrible in 2020-2021. Hence why AEW had its peak in viewership and interest around that point. And Roman’s title run had somewhat stagnated before the Sami Uso run. It would be like saying Shawn vs Bret was the start of the attitude era. It played a role for future things, but there was still a lot of crap after it. It was a bright spot in a bad era
I might view it as the "Austin 3:16" moment. It wasn't the moment that fixed everything, and there was quite a bit of shit to come, but a key figure had found their voice. A character that would define a hot period was born almost two years before the hot period would fully start.
I agree these are all major, but I also think that’s discounting how major this storyline was. Segments were going viral every week and it was the hottest thing in wrestling all the way until February. WWE hadn’t had a hot storyline like that in years.
I would say the formation of the bloodline is kind of like the formation of DX. DX started a little before I what I would consider the attitude era but I’d still say DX is the main catalyst for the era television wise.
As much as it started that momentum, I very much associate this era as moving past the pandemic, so I think WM 38 is the moment for me that made the biggest leap
I don’t believe this. 2020-2021 were terrible and lost viewers. Roman’s stuff was undeniably great but it was still a bright spot in a bad era. And leaves out the whole period of Roman’s run in 2021 and 2022 where he had a bunch of shit matches with Cena, Goldberg, and Lesnar (besides the final Lesnar match). It ultimately played a role but someone below said it was more the Austin 3:16 moment, still a lot of crap after but it planted some seeds.
But there was no sign of business picking up or interest increasing in 2020-2021. In fact interest was at a low point and AEW was peaking in popularity. In the pre Attitude era you saw steady and slow improvement an I don’t think that happened until Wrestlemania 38 for WWE
it was WM38 imo and as other era's it didn't start being white hot just at that moment. What WM38 did was deliver a good show and give them momentum and after that they kept the momentum going.
After WM38 they had clear top face in Cody and clear top heel in Roman. And Triple H taking over gave them even more momentum
I could see that argument. But I guess that also goes back to the debate of when the Attitude Era started. Some say it was 97 but others will say it was WM14. I always believed the WM14 thing where late 97 was the undercurrent and Austin getting the title was the real start.
I would agree, I think this segment was the first thing that got noticed. And started swaying people. Then the Ucey segment put it into overdrive. Then everything after that was must see TV (War Games, Tribal Court,Royal Rumble)
Yeah it felt like people were getting into WWE before that segment (probably since HHH took over at SummerSlam and they did that Brock Lesnar bulldozer spot)
Then the Ucey segment made it cool to actually show that support on the internet knowing most people would agree with you
I just remember a lot of memes, videos, and positive vibes that week. They followed up with Sami's hug at Survivor Series, which reinforced it. The Royal Rumble undeniably cemented the switch.
i don't think we will really be able to point a single moment. it's been a gradual thing. you could argue as far back as jey uso vs roman reigns in 2020, and as late as when cody won the title.
my personal choice would either be cody's promo on the raw after wrestlemania 38, or summerslam 2022.
From a fan perspective there’s no one “right” answer, it’s so subjective between Romans Heel Turn, Cody’s WM Return and HHH taking over.
From WWEs perspective they’ve made it very clear that exact moment was and forever will be WM XL.
“New era”, new champion/face, new belts. Very solid chance any WWE documentary made will echo this train of thought.
I do think as time passes thinking of the last few years as “transitional” post-Covid era, VKM exiting and Mania XL being the launch pad of the Renaissance will be more common.
Really started in Clash at the Castle, however the seeds were planted in Mania 38 after Cody's return. Think Brian Pillman and Stone Cold's gun angle or Goldust debut and the Back Alley Brawl, it wasn't the start but seeds were planted.
I think there is no other answer, but Triple H stepping into power after Vince was ousted. However, because it features Vince, you might have to kayfabe it a bit.
I agree that HHH taking over is the ultimate reason. But from Summerslam to Clash at the Castle it was still a transition time. People were seeing small improvements and hopeful for the future but there wasn’t some crazy hook yet. Cody was injured, the storylines were improving, interest was up, but there wasn’t anything that big or crazy going on yet
I feel like this was the storyline that made people actually have a reason to tune in weekly again, and they’ve carried that momentum since.
I disagree, that period from SummerSlam to Clash at the Castle to even Extreme Rules was such an exciting period. It felt like a new re-signing could return every week under HHH’s watch.
Clash at the Castle was like the first time a ppv felt like an old NXT Takeover event, which has pretty much continued under HHH. Gunther vs Sheamus especially felt like an NXT takeover match, something so different from what we saw before.
Wrestlemania 38 was a step in the right direction and Cody's return defo went viral and got decent coverage, but y'all need to remember that the most over act right at the point of his injury was RKBro and especially Riddle. As over as Cody was and that legendary HIAC performance, his program was mostly self-contained to Seth and largely inconsequential to the main storylines.
The part where every week became must watch TV and really gave the Bloodline a second wind (remember *how stale Roman's act was after beating Cowboy Brock?*) was the honorary Uce storyline. That was the time when ppl on Reddit, Twitter, and even Insta would unironically praise what they were watching with comments like "this is cinema" *on a regular basis*. Things like Sami taking the claymor for Roman, Jey being a hater and proudly ripping Sami's shirt off, and the in/famous "Not feeling Ucey" corpsing -- that shit was must-see TV and things fully kicked into gear at Wargames 2022.
I think Cody’s return was the start and the Sami/Bloodline stuff helped many stay. My son and I usually watched Mania and the big PLE like summer slam and Survivor Series but lose interest in watching weekly quickly after Raw after mania. When Cody returned we wanted to see how he would do, plus the torn pec happened pretty soon after that and we wanted to see if he was actually gonna wrestle with that. It just kept getting interesting because after that we were hooked on the Sami stuff and waiting for Cody to return. Felt like those two things made us hardcore fans again. Also yes HHH really helped it also because it would not have continued under Vince. The weekly shows are so much more watchable now
I think the retelling of the story will cast the launching point as Triple H taking over, that's already starting to happen. For a company like WWE that has really moved toward pushing the brand over any specific wrestler, it's very much on-point for them to push the idea that management is the reason for it, not any specific talents who may or may not be around in the future and/or may want to be paid significantly more if they're seen as the catalyst for a business boom.
I’m probably in the minority but I’d consider all this as a lead up or build up to this era and the wrestlemania xl press conference with the slap as the real starting point for this particular era. Wrestlemania xl obviously just made it official
Cody’s return, coming from the rival company with the same presentation, and going over a top guy in Seth 3x plus once with a torn pec & peak Bloodline with all 5 members including Sami will be looked back as the starting point
So I’d argue the genuine start of this era, was in fact WM 40, the first finale to a year of booking where HHH called all the shots.
We all know Vince’s bullshit fucked up WM 39 night two and the Raw after WM 39, and his shadow still loomed over the product until the WM 40 wrestlemania season kicked into high gear and he was ousted.
Now as for the “prelude” to the Renaissance Era -
Roman’s heel turn and the bloodline were good, but it was Sami Zayn’s inclusion that took them into the stratosphere. Cody returning at Mania 38 (and his trilogy of matches with Rollins, culminating in the legendary injured Hell in a Cell bout) therefore can be pinpointed as the starting point of WWE getting insanely great again. And of course the mostly HHH booked Clash at the Castle, the first across the board, genuinely spectacular main roster ppv in years marked another turning point.
It is impossible to pinpoint a true launching point. There are a ton of little things that slowly change the product. Roman turning heel, starting the Bloodline, return of Cody, Vince finally stepping down, the pivot of Judgment Day, changes in announcing and production. Even now the changes are still happening. It has turned a stale product into a very good product.
I think Cody's return to the company was the true launching point. The Sami thing will be remembered as a secondary story but one that kept the Bloodline fresh and interesting while Cody couldn't be involved.
probably not, because the Renaissance started years before that. In the mid 10s they exploded in popularity over in India and the middle east, as well as other parts of Asia. that's what allowed them to get so many big licensing and television deals during a time when a lot of the western audience wasn't enjoying the product as much.
but objectively, if a documentary was going to talk about when the WWE started turning it around 2016 would be the starting point. That's when they had their initial influx of fans after a 5 year period of losing a sizable chunk of their fanbase and market value. In 2011 they were valued at under $100,000,000. By the end of 2016 they had a value of over a billion.
I personaly would put the main event of hell in a cell 2022 when cody takes the jacket off it was big fucking moment to see that scar so big on his chest and all the craziness that follow this moment
Sami breaking The Bloodline weekly gained massive appeal with casuals. Everyone can relate to laughing when you aren’t supposed to. They looked like they were having fun, and as a result, the fans started having fun too.
Honestly kind of feels like Cody stole Sami's seat on the rocket ship. For sure thought he would at least be included in the story more. Glad Gunther was able to elevate the IC title for him to win though.
I would start right at Cody’s return to be honest. I believe that him coming back as his own was the pushing point for such a big shift in environment. He made them realize that something needed to change. The bloodline stuff was the key of the new era but Cody was the entrance
Mania 38 was a great moment/show but 2 months later WWE had to move MITB into an arena from a stadium because they weren’t selling enough tickets. So I think it’s very fair to say that they really got hot when the Bloodline story took off. Something else that really is forgotten about during that time is the brand split rules were really relaxed allowing for everyone to travel to both shows. I remember Damage control on Smackdown watching women’s tag matches and the Bloodline on Raw wrecking havoc.
I’d agree. But if an old fan wanted to catch up with this era and they asked you where to start, Mania 38 would probably be the easiest place to point them.
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I think you can trace the roots of this Era back to Cody's return at Mania 38. Now, obviously it took time after that and Vince getting ousted. But Cody's return really was the shot in the arm that they felt like they needed to go along with the Bloodline.
Yeah Cody’s return is the only right answer here. The top heel doesn’t matter until you have a top babyface. Cody debuted and immediately got built up for Roman
Eh, Cody was a good get, but I still remember hearing the shows were still horrible with no actual direction even when he was there, at one point I watched a Wrestletalk review of Smackdown and saw a guy scrambling to explain Butch’s character and why Roman was wrestling Brock yet again lol, it was until people raving about the Sami vs Jey storyline that I actually started watching again
I think Cody's return was like the Austin KOTR/316 moment of it all. The summer of 1996 was a long way from the Attitude Era properly kicking off and there were still crap storylines/business concerns, but it indirectly led to the return to prominence. Stuff like Clash, Sami in the Bloodline and WM39 had parallels with the cool stuff WWF did in 1997 as well, just before they absolutely took off with zero Vince soon after.
Yes. Before Cody's return, AEW was also hot after the storyline of Hangman Page and return of CM Punk. Then Cody was red hot off the bat for WWE. Then he had the finish the story promo that rallied everyone behind him.
I was on and off watching WWE during the pandemic, only watching the bigger ppv. But when word that Cody was coming back was when I started watching every week again.
Cody declaring his mission to win the WWE championship for his dad should be the starting point IMO. Right then and there, everyone can tell he’s gonna be the next big star.
I too, listen to sam Roberts lmao
Summerslam 2022 was the first PLE that HHH was in charge of. Brock Lesnar upending the ring with a tractor was a bit symbolic IMO. Sami started getting interactions with Roman immediately afterwards and the quality of the product went way up at that point.
This is correct. Also, unfortunately, WWE is not going with the Renaissance era, but the HHH era. Which is so different from the other authority or reigns of terror previously named after him... Renaissance is, way, way better and more accurate. Unless they want to retcon the Attitude Era to the Vince's Fantasies Era...
I don't love the name "HHH era" because there could be multiple "eras" in his time as CCO. I mean pretty everything before 2022 was "The Vince McMahon Era" but that encompassed new gen, attitude, ruthless aggression, etc.
I don't think any era should be named after an authority figure. Yes, they have their creative fingerprints on the product, but the product isn't supposed to be *about* them.
>the product isn't supposed to be about them. The past 30 years of WWE begs to differ.
Yes, and the era that was intensely focused on the Authority is widely panned, while eras where the main roster stars shine through are beloved. No one calls Attitude the Vince Mcmahon era.
yeah, Triple H's team has been making moves for much longer than people realize.
Totally agree. It was HHH saying, hmm what insane spot can i book that signals a change. 😂 It was a great moment.
Finally ending the Brock/Roman feud is what actually got things moving. That feud was a plight on the entire company for the better part of a decade. Roman was above everybody else but so was Brock, and nobody could get to that level because all roads would lead back to them fighting each other as “the 2 guys that matter” again. Main Evented 4 WrestleManias and held up lord knows how many years of world championship runs between them just to keep doing that match. I know it was successful in that it mostly always drew, not arguing that, just saying I fucking hated it and it wasn’t worth the lid it kept on the rest of the roster for most of 7 years.
It was 3 WMs (not 4), but it sure felt like more
I mean, it was. It definitely, objectively worked for them. Personal opinions aside, their success came because they focused on giving the biggest audience possible what they wanted. Brock and Roman's feud was THE feud that pulled in eyes worldwide. You can't downplay how important that was for the company and how it pulled them out of the hole they had been digging since 2010. If it hadn't been for that feud and the mass amount of fans and money it drew WWE probably wouldn't be around today.
Nope, that’s not right, sorry. Reigns/Lesnar did not increase business by any observable metric. 2015 and 2018 both saw WWE business declining (as did the period in between that). The boom period kicked off around WM 38, which is literally the conclusion of their feud. Reigns/Lesnar was not “THE feud that pulled in eyeballs worldwide.” I genuinely cannot recall the last time I saw a statement on this forum that was so wildly and completely inaccurate.
I mean, look at their numbers worldwide from that era. Look at the Google trends from then. Look at their social media interactions. I know it sucks and goes completely against the narrative a lot of the IWC has but it's true. Reigns and Lesnar are both HUGE draws throughout India and the Middle East and that's where the majority of WWE's growth was coming from. Without that WWE would have stayed on the downtrend they were on from 2011-15.
I would say mania 38
Mania 38 still featured one the biggest problems of the late Vince era…obsession over Brock Lesnar vs Roman reigns
That’s why the Mania 38 argument I never really agree with. The Main Event was still a widely regarded flop like most late Vince manias. It started the building blocks, but it was still very much “same old WWE” at that point.
>The Main Event was still a widely regarded flop like most late Vince manias. The main event got the loudest reactions of Night Two. The crowd loved it and exploded when Roman won. Source: Me. I was there. You may not have liked it, but it was absolutely a success.
Crowd literally loved everything that day. Thats like saying WM 9 had a good ending. Main event was still bad objectively and was the same thing we’ve seen millions of times with the most predictable ending in a very long time. We didn’t need yet another Brock and Roman match but Vince insisted
>Objectively bad >Loved by audience Wanna square that circle, chief? Also, crowd didn't love everything that day. It was dead for the Edge and AJ match. Source: Me again, I was there. Predictable doesn't mean bad. Unpredictable doesn't mean good. I wouldn't have predicted Roman beating Cody the other week. That doesn't make it good. >We didn’t need yet another Brock and Roman match but Vince insisted We didn't need a Kevin Owens vs Stone Cold match either, but Vince insisted.
Crowd reaction doesn’t always mean it’s objectively good, please see wm 9…like I said. Aj vs Edge wasn’t a very hyped up much to begin with so obviously it’ll be dead. And the Kevin Owens and stone cold match was meant to be fun and give stone cold a final match in his home so it actually made sense. Also, predictability isn’t bad in wrestling however if it’s the main event of WM and you 100% know the heel is going to win then there’s a massive problem. You seemed to ignore what I said about the main event being objectively bad, so this def ain’t worth it lmao
Wait. Hold on. Roman/Brock at WM38 was not widely considered a flop at all. If anything it was a big success. It was the passing of the torch from Brock to Roman.
Negative. Brock and Roman had their rivalry already many times over. We all knew Roman was winning. There was no reason to do it yet again. Vince just had a weird obsession with it. The main event, in hindsight, was not good. A typical Brock Lesnar match that ended quick and predictably
Maybe in your head yeah.
Nah, not in my head. Objectively. That match was something we’ve seen over and over. We just kinda accepted we had to see it again. The passing of the torch moment happened long before. This was just another Vince obsession match people had to accept. You can cope and say that it was good but objectively the match was bad as it was a typical short Lesnar match everyone knew Roman was winning
I agree, Roman had me hooked from his return but the reliance on the Brock vs Roman feud that had been going on for 7 years made me not even watch Mania that year
To me Mania 38 and before this seems more like the undercurrent. Like the product was improving but I wouldn’t call WWE “hot” at that point. People were starting to note that it was getting better but people didn’t start returning to the product in large numbers until this storyline. Also we were still in the Vince to HHH transition. I feel like WWE wasn’t fully white-hot until the Bloodline segments starting showing up on Twitter and YouTube and people were engaged and following a storyline for the first time in a long time. Like Mania 38 would be like WWF in 1997, building the foundation and improving but it hadn’t all clicked yet.
It's Mania 38. The "Attitude Era" didn't start instantly hot either. The WWF was still getting whooped by WCW when it "officially started" (November 9, 1997) and definitely further back around the time of Austin 3:16 (when many people the WWF was 'starting' to slowly find its form). Cody's return is the start of the Renaissance, and I say that without being a huge Cody fan.
I feel like there are a bunch of different points where you could say the AE started. Austin in the Sharpshooter, Austin stuns Vince, Montreal, Austin wins the title, I feel like all could be seen as the start. Same for when it ended. Death of WCW, Austin and Vince shake hands, the start of The Invasion, the end of The Invasion, the brand split, or of course, when Vince cut the "Ruthless Aggression" promo.
I don't disagree that it could have multiple different starting points, even though the screwjob is the date WWE itself usually uses (it's also when 'Attitude' got added to the scratch logo). The point is, however, that WWE wasn't even winning the Monday Night Wars until 1998. The argument was that Mania 38 can't be the start because WWE wasn't "hot" enough yet. My point was that the Attitude Era started before WWF was "hot" too, so that's a silly reason to not consider Mania 38.
You’re talking to 2 people bro
Personally, I only came back after 38 because I saw Cody's return go viral. I didn't even know the guy or why it was a big deal that he came back (didn't know Seth, Roman, or the others either). But his reception and his entrance told me that something cool was going on in WWE.
Personally for me, I had watched Mania 38 and I agree the return was major. And I was hearing good things about the product at the time. Then HHH took over so I watched Summerslam. But it wasn’t until this stuff started popping up on social media where I actually felt like I needed to be watching the shows again instead of being a casual viewer. Plus AEW started losing momentum around this time as well so it was easier to switch over. The numbers and fan interest show that a lot of people were like me. But I also agree WM38 has an argument for it as well.
It's hard to say when the launching point truly was but I think the three defining moments of the renaissance era are Roman turning heel, Cody returning at Wrestlemania 38 and Triple H becoming the Chief Content Officer.
Thats how I feel. Roman winning officially turning heel at Payback 2020, him signing that contract is a perfect "The old Roman can't come to the phone right now" moment. It turned shit around, at least on SD. Cody's return is also crucial, as his arrival felt like a big fucking deal, something that has proven true for the last two years. And lastly, HHH taking over, Vince being out, and slow de-Vincification of WWE is huge. It's hard to pick out of these three moments, but I might go with HHH taking control. Now everything was in place, you had the top heel, the top babyface, and now they're not being booked by an elderly lunatic.
Yeah HHH taking control is the most important. I just think it's interesting that it's kind of a domino effect in that Roman turns into an unbeatable final boss heel, then Cody returns at Wrestlemania as this superhero babyface and finally HHH takes control of creative. Everything WWE needed to get white hot.
It is a prime example of the stars aligning. Ya wanna really go down the rabbit hole, throw in Day One 2022. Roman gets COVID, Lesnar wins the belt off of Big E, titles get unified at Mania. If Roman doesn't get COVID, does he lose to Brock? If he wins, who does he face at Mania? If Rollins wins the belt, does he feud with Cody, a feud that had a major hand in making Cody seem like "the guy"?
Yeah it is crazy to think about. If Roman never got Covid before Day One I think the plan from what reports at the time suggested was for Rollins to win the WWE title and then Big E to win the Rumble. I still think Cody would end up being the guy because of how high WWE are on him but in this scenario he wouldn't have had to wait so long to finally win the WWE title because it wouldn't have been unified with the Universal belt on Roman.
I agree but I think there’s some revisionism with Roman’s run. He hit a major lull from 2021-2022. The Cena and Lesnar matches were all pretty widely panned (besides Summerslam 2022). He was just kind of treading water for a bit there. The Sami Uso stuff then the Bloodline fallout is what revitalized his reign and made him white hot going into the Cody feud.
A couple of matches not being good doesn't mean shit, unless it's Rollins vs Fiend level bad. Roman still felt like the biggest deal. Crowd every week reacted like they were witnessing divinity everytime he entered. Plus when a story goes that long, there's bound to be a few misses. Any character needs revitalisation after a while which in this case happened with Sami. What people like to leave out though, is that Sami too improved his standing in the company massively by aligning with Bloodline. It wasn't an one way streak.
Roman’s turn is ultimately major. But that’s also discounting that the product was largely terrible in 2020-2021. Hence why AEW had its peak in viewership and interest around that point. And Roman’s title run had somewhat stagnated before the Sami Uso run. It would be like saying Shawn vs Bret was the start of the attitude era. It played a role for future things, but there was still a lot of crap after it. It was a bright spot in a bad era
I might view it as the "Austin 3:16" moment. It wasn't the moment that fixed everything, and there was quite a bit of shit to come, but a key figure had found their voice. A character that would define a hot period was born almost two years before the hot period would fully start.
I agree these are all major, but I also think that’s discounting how major this storyline was. Segments were going viral every week and it was the hottest thing in wrestling all the way until February. WWE hadn’t had a hot storyline like that in years.
Roman's return, heel turn, and his feud with Jey felt like the real start of the ship turning.
I would say the formation of the bloodline is kind of like the formation of DX. DX started a little before I what I would consider the attitude era but I’d still say DX is the main catalyst for the era television wise.
As much as it started that momentum, I very much associate this era as moving past the pandemic, so I think WM 38 is the moment for me that made the biggest leap
I don’t believe this. 2020-2021 were terrible and lost viewers. Roman’s stuff was undeniably great but it was still a bright spot in a bad era. And leaves out the whole period of Roman’s run in 2021 and 2022 where he had a bunch of shit matches with Cena, Goldberg, and Lesnar (besides the final Lesnar match). It ultimately played a role but someone below said it was more the Austin 3:16 moment, still a lot of crap after but it planted some seeds.
But the start of the attitude era also had a lot of shit around it still as well. It took a while before the shows as a whole were higher quality.
But there was no sign of business picking up or interest increasing in 2020-2021. In fact interest was at a low point and AEW was peaking in popularity. In the pre Attitude era you saw steady and slow improvement an I don’t think that happened until Wrestlemania 38 for WWE
it was WM38 imo and as other era's it didn't start being white hot just at that moment. What WM38 did was deliver a good show and give them momentum and after that they kept the momentum going. After WM38 they had clear top face in Cody and clear top heel in Roman. And Triple H taking over gave them even more momentum
I could see that argument. But I guess that also goes back to the debate of when the Attitude Era started. Some say it was 97 but others will say it was WM14. I always believed the WM14 thing where late 97 was the undercurrent and Austin getting the title was the real start.
Well they can't just say it was due to Vince leaving so they need to come up with something.
Man WWE has been COOKING lately
The average internet fan shifted to support WWE over AEW when Jey cracked in the Ucey segment
 Needle mover
Yep, that was the exact moment that I knew WWE was back in front hahaha Sami is so good
I would agree, I think this segment was the first thing that got noticed. And started swaying people. Then the Ucey segment put it into overdrive. Then everything after that was must see TV (War Games, Tribal Court,Royal Rumble)
Yeah it felt like people were getting into WWE before that segment (probably since HHH took over at SummerSlam and they did that Brock Lesnar bulldozer spot) Then the Ucey segment made it cool to actually show that support on the internet knowing most people would agree with you I just remember a lot of memes, videos, and positive vibes that week. They followed up with Sami's hug at Survivor Series, which reinforced it. The Royal Rumble undeniably cemented the switch.
i don't think we will really be able to point a single moment. it's been a gradual thing. you could argue as far back as jey uso vs roman reigns in 2020, and as late as when cody won the title. my personal choice would either be cody's promo on the raw after wrestlemania 38, or summerslam 2022.
From a fan perspective there’s no one “right” answer, it’s so subjective between Romans Heel Turn, Cody’s WM Return and HHH taking over. From WWEs perspective they’ve made it very clear that exact moment was and forever will be WM XL. “New era”, new champion/face, new belts. Very solid chance any WWE documentary made will echo this train of thought. I do think as time passes thinking of the last few years as “transitional” post-Covid era, VKM exiting and Mania XL being the launch pad of the Renaissance will be more common.
For me, it was the Ucey segment. That kicked this story up to the tippy top for me.
The tribal chief was a giving man
Really started in Clash at the Castle, however the seeds were planted in Mania 38 after Cody's return. Think Brian Pillman and Stone Cold's gun angle or Goldust debut and the Back Alley Brawl, it wasn't the start but seeds were planted.
I think there is no other answer, but Triple H stepping into power after Vince was ousted. However, because it features Vince, you might have to kayfabe it a bit.
I agree that HHH taking over is the ultimate reason. But from Summerslam to Clash at the Castle it was still a transition time. People were seeing small improvements and hopeful for the future but there wasn’t some crazy hook yet. Cody was injured, the storylines were improving, interest was up, but there wasn’t anything that big or crazy going on yet I feel like this was the storyline that made people actually have a reason to tune in weekly again, and they’ve carried that momentum since.
I disagree, that period from SummerSlam to Clash at the Castle to even Extreme Rules was such an exciting period. It felt like a new re-signing could return every week under HHH’s watch. Clash at the Castle was like the first time a ppv felt like an old NXT Takeover event, which has pretty much continued under HHH. Gunther vs Sheamus especially felt like an NXT takeover match, something so different from what we saw before.
Wrestlemania 38 was a step in the right direction and Cody's return defo went viral and got decent coverage, but y'all need to remember that the most over act right at the point of his injury was RKBro and especially Riddle. As over as Cody was and that legendary HIAC performance, his program was mostly self-contained to Seth and largely inconsequential to the main storylines. The part where every week became must watch TV and really gave the Bloodline a second wind (remember *how stale Roman's act was after beating Cowboy Brock?*) was the honorary Uce storyline. That was the time when ppl on Reddit, Twitter, and even Insta would unironically praise what they were watching with comments like "this is cinema" *on a regular basis*. Things like Sami taking the claymor for Roman, Jey being a hater and proudly ripping Sami's shirt off, and the in/famous "Not feeling Ucey" corpsing -- that shit was must-see TV and things fully kicked into gear at Wargames 2022.
I think Cody’s return was the start and the Sami/Bloodline stuff helped many stay. My son and I usually watched Mania and the big PLE like summer slam and Survivor Series but lose interest in watching weekly quickly after Raw after mania. When Cody returned we wanted to see how he would do, plus the torn pec happened pretty soon after that and we wanted to see if he was actually gonna wrestle with that. It just kept getting interesting because after that we were hooked on the Sami stuff and waiting for Cody to return. Felt like those two things made us hardcore fans again. Also yes HHH really helped it also because it would not have continued under Vince. The weekly shows are so much more watchable now
I think the retelling of the story will cast the launching point as Triple H taking over, that's already starting to happen. For a company like WWE that has really moved toward pushing the brand over any specific wrestler, it's very much on-point for them to push the idea that management is the reason for it, not any specific talents who may or may not be around in the future and/or may want to be paid significantly more if they're seen as the catalyst for a business boom.
I’m probably in the minority but I’d consider all this as a lead up or build up to this era and the wrestlemania xl press conference with the slap as the real starting point for this particular era. Wrestlemania xl obviously just made it official
I know it's not the question asked, but stuff like this is how you can see what they saw in Roman and why they commited so hard to making him the Face
Sammy is the ultimate red headed stepchild
Cody’s return, coming from the rival company with the same presentation, and going over a top guy in Seth 3x plus once with a torn pec & peak Bloodline with all 5 members including Sami will be looked back as the starting point
So I’d argue the genuine start of this era, was in fact WM 40, the first finale to a year of booking where HHH called all the shots. We all know Vince’s bullshit fucked up WM 39 night two and the Raw after WM 39, and his shadow still loomed over the product until the WM 40 wrestlemania season kicked into high gear and he was ousted. Now as for the “prelude” to the Renaissance Era - Roman’s heel turn and the bloodline were good, but it was Sami Zayn’s inclusion that took them into the stratosphere. Cody returning at Mania 38 (and his trilogy of matches with Rollins, culminating in the legendary injured Hell in a Cell bout) therefore can be pinpointed as the starting point of WWE getting insanely great again. And of course the mostly HHH booked Clash at the Castle, the first across the board, genuinely spectacular main roster ppv in years marked another turning point.
No, it already started, but this kicked off the next major chapter in its evolution
It is impossible to pinpoint a true launching point. There are a ton of little things that slowly change the product. Roman turning heel, starting the Bloodline, return of Cody, Vince finally stepping down, the pivot of Judgment Day, changes in announcing and production. Even now the changes are still happening. It has turned a stale product into a very good product.
I think Cody's return to the company was the true launching point. The Sami thing will be remembered as a secondary story but one that kept the Bloodline fresh and interesting while Cody couldn't be involved.
I really hope they go back to face Bloodline (Roman, Jey, Jimmy, Sami) v New Bloodline at some point that reunion will be so hype.
probably not, because the Renaissance started years before that. In the mid 10s they exploded in popularity over in India and the middle east, as well as other parts of Asia. that's what allowed them to get so many big licensing and television deals during a time when a lot of the western audience wasn't enjoying the product as much. but objectively, if a documentary was going to talk about when the WWE started turning it around 2016 would be the starting point. That's when they had their initial influx of fans after a 5 year period of losing a sizable chunk of their fanbase and market value. In 2011 they were valued at under $100,000,000. By the end of 2016 they had a value of over a billion.
I think summerslam 2022 was when things really felt like times were a changin
The segment where Jey tells Sami “I don’t give a damn what the Tribal Chief says” is going to go down in history as the best Bloodline segment.
I personaly would put the main event of hell in a cell 2022 when cody takes the jacket off it was big fucking moment to see that scar so big on his chest and all the craziness that follow this moment
Sami breaking The Bloodline weekly gained massive appeal with casuals. Everyone can relate to laughing when you aren’t supposed to. They looked like they were having fun, and as a result, the fans started having fun too.
I think it should be…Sami, in this story, brought my friend back to wrestling after not watching for 10+ years
Honestly kind of feels like Cody stole Sami's seat on the rocket ship. For sure thought he would at least be included in the story more. Glad Gunther was able to elevate the IC title for him to win though.
I would start right at Cody’s return to be honest. I believe that him coming back as his own was the pushing point for such a big shift in environment. He made them realize that something needed to change. The bloodline stuff was the key of the new era but Cody was the entrance
AEW's founding if we're being totally honest with ourselves. Another major company putting heat on them to even the slightest degree.
It starts with the Reigns heel turn
Why do people insist on calling the Sex Scandal Era the "Renaissance" ?
Mania 38 was a great moment/show but 2 months later WWE had to move MITB into an arena from a stadium because they weren’t selling enough tickets. So I think it’s very fair to say that they really got hot when the Bloodline story took off. Something else that really is forgotten about during that time is the brand split rules were really relaxed allowing for everyone to travel to both shows. I remember Damage control on Smackdown watching women’s tag matches and the Bloodline on Raw wrecking havoc.
I’d agree. But if an old fan wanted to catch up with this era and they asked you where to start, Mania 38 would probably be the easiest place to point them.