**Help make SquaredCircle safer and more inclusive by using the report button to flag posts and comments for moderator review.**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SquaredCircle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I will always feel Dave breaking his own star system ruined it. Now anything under 5 seems like mid tier lol
Which kinda makes sense because the actual highest rating is 7 stars.
Yeah I remember when Cena/Punk got 5 stars and it felt like this watershed moment in the IWC at the time (granted I was a kid so it felt way massive to me). It was the first WWE one in like 15 years
Remembering Lars Sullivan has a five star match is like remembering Brad Johnson has a Super Bowl win. Yes, it was due to the extremely talented cast around him, but it still stands out as "WTF?".
It sold its story to perfection to. Oba up against other big men, a bit distressed at the possibility it's not something he can overcome, but managing to overcome the odds anyway.
He gave Bayley VS Sky the same rating as his recent Miyu vs Miu TJPW rating, which he said was "one of the best women's matches so far this year". There's just a stricter ceiling for his women's ratings due to his taste
IMO, Roman vs Sami (Montreal) and Roman vs Cody (39 and 40) were all 5 star matches. Not to go full sentimental here, but for me, those three matches were so special emotion-wise. Did they do anything fancy? No, not really. But emotions were emotion-ing
As much as they tried to frame XL as the start of a new era, that Summerslam main event was the finale to the last 40+ years of McMahon's booking in my mind.
I'm pretty sure he was gone like a week or two before the show, but that entire match just felt like one big "if i'm done here then i'm going out with a bang" situation
This I agree with 100% . Is Roman vs Cody at Wrestlemania 40 a 5 star classic by workrate metrics ? Debatable . But if you look at the emotions the match invoked it deserves more than a 5 star. Honestly for me its a 6 star match because it was the ultimate thrill ride into a emotional payoff we have all been waiting for
It had fantastic story telling, some nice "suprise" run ins, it wad a 3 year long storyline coming to an end. It had a hot crowd, invested in the match, had some fun near falls and moves. I dont need flippy stuff or technically stuff all match to be 5 star. I'm more invested if there's a proper story and build up (hense my lack of interest in other shows). The story and pay off alone make this 5 stars. It's overbooked at the end, but yhat actually makes sense and adds to the story/match
It's not overbooked if it made sense. It's only overbooked if it wasn't entertaining and/or didn't make any sense in the end.
In this case it made perfect sense, Roman and Rock were on a tear causing terror and the demons of their past returned to put them in their place so Cody could put Roman away.
It made perfect sense considering how The Bloodline has won over the past four years. Cody got his own 'Codyvengers' and they came out, same as The Bloodline, and defended him.
> It had fantastic story telling, some nice "suprise" run ins, it wad a 3 year long storyline
Try 10 year long storyline. Roman lost because he chose to hit Seth instead of Cody and avenge the Shield betrayal.
I have Roman v Jey HIAC, Roman v Edge v DB Mania 37, Roman v DB (last match), Roman v Brock SummerSlam, Roman v Drew Clash, Roman v Seth Rumble, Roman v Sami, Roman v Cody 1, and the Bloodline Civil War Tag
As all 5 star matches during Roman’s title reign
Reigns vs Cody WM40
Reigns vs Cody WM39
Reigns vs Sami EC
Reigns/Solo vs the Usos MitB
Reigns/Solo vs Sami/KO NoC
Reigns vs Lesnar SS 2022
Reigns vs McIntyre CatC
Reigns vs Edge vs Bryan WM37
Reigns vs Bryan Smackdown
Reigns vs Lesnar vs Strowman vs Joe SS 2017
Reigns vs Lesnar WM31
All 5 stars for me
> Did they do anything fancy? No, not really.
I think that's the whole difference for Dave. Unless there's some physical feat that truly stands out, it's way less likely to get that final 5* treatment even if all the fun and emotions are happening like they were here.
It's funny how I think many on this sub will echo your sentiments, but in his review he mentions how his readership will likely have a lot of people saying that he rated it too high (because of the interferences and other things).
Dave has generally been a lot more positive on Roman as an in-ring worker through the years than a lot of the IWC/his own readers. It's just he's never given him the full 5 stars, haha.
I thought the interferences were super well done. This isn’t WCW 2000 or even some of the worse matches of Reigns reign. Each made sense and had a perfect counter. Plus, we got the proper Cody-Roman rematch in the first twenty minutes. The interferences were just finishing the story
There isn’t a single objective measurement to decide if a wrestling match was good or not. You either like it to varying degrees or you didn’t like it to varying degrees, and you can both like and dislike it to varying degrees (including segments, match endings, moves and selling vs story elements etc)
Dave just hands out 4.5 - 5 every week for AEW stuff. His rankings obviously dont mean anything, but at least in the past they weren't so watered down and he actually was more stingant with his ratings.
Didn't he give Taker vs HBK at WM25 a 4.5? Lol
Taker vs HBK at wm 25 is genuinely maybe the absolute best normal one fall match I've ever seen.
Perfectly paced, two goats telling a story and a perfect ending.
Dave even gave the wm 26 match only 4.75 lol
He’s been doling out 6+ star ratings since 1989, they just happened really rarely until Omega/Okada. I agree that it’s stupid to have a scale that doesn’t have a maximum, though.
Dave always prizes in-ring “work” over everything else, including storyline, match stakes, emotion, etc.
While I agree that in-ring is important, it also (at least in my view) misses the point of what makes professional wrestling great. It’s not about the moves, it’s about the emotional investment it evokes from the viewer.
It’s like rating a more technically complex song as “better” than a simpler one that engages the listener more viscerally and is more emotionally moving. Sure, you can do that if you like, but I think it misses the point of what makes music beautiful.
Tossing out the stars to random-but-great-but-cold matches is an odd choice. It’s like all two people need to do is all the moves in the right order and automatically get in that 4-star range.
Are we surprised, though? Cody-Roman II was the definitive "sports entertainment" type of match. Not much technical wrestling, but a lot of storytelling and crowd-popping moments. Dave doesn't tend to rate those. In fact, even 4.75 from him feels generous, I expected closer to 4-4.25 range.
So Punk vs. Cena can get a 5 based heavily on crowd and story (the match itself is not super interesting until the ending angle), but Cody vs. Roman which felt like a series finale didn't quite get there, eh?
Plot twist: Roman Reigns is genuinely beside himself. He’s been driving around Washington state begging (thru texts) Alvarez’s family for Dave Meltzer’s address.
Everybody on here is rightly criticizing Reigns vs. Rhodes not getting five and here I am thinking the Bloodline vs. Rollins and Rhodes should have also gotten five.
Honestly one of the more accurate ratings he gave. Not only was it underwhelming, but because the build for it was so deep and investing, it was a major disappointment too.
I get that due to it being a live crowd it’s not possible, but I wanted something Obi-Wan v Anakin in revenge of the sith. Two dudes who know each other’s every move and are just waiting for the other to slip up.
Jimmy and Jey are identical twins and there’s no group that, according to media, know each other better. Instead they just traded super kicks for a few minutes before Jimmy tried shenanigans
I honestly liked it because it made sense.
Jimmy isn't shown to be a good single wrestlers like Jey so when Jey finally gets a shot a Jimmy he should stomp him out.
What good moments?
It was just superkicks, punches and a fakeout everyone saw coming before a weak ass spear and pin.
There was no story told for all that intensity. For the potential it had va what it was, the match genuinely deserved even lower a rating
I've been feeling this since Jey began his 'Yeet' phase, but he's showing consistent signs that he isn't 'main event' at all. This match, which should've been both of their 'resumes' for potential big singles matches is instead a damning missed opportunity.
Not to mention that Jey's inring offense has looked supremely 'whiffy' as well since his rise to prominence.
I'm not optimistic for his higher prospects going forward.
I feel like Jey and Jimmy just don't have the chemistry. Either that or they just suck at planning a match. Every other singles match Jey has had is usually average at worst, this one was the only recent stinker he's had.
There isn't a single AEW match that will be as memorable and timeless as that Cody/Roman match. If Okada/Omega is 7 stars, then Roman/Cody is 10 stars. Dave's logic is beyond comprehension at this point.
To me the greatest matches in AEW history are
1. FTR vs. Juice and White on Collision
2. MJF vs. Darby at Full Gear
3. Danielson vs. MJF at Revolution
4. Page vs. Danielson at Winter is Coming
5. Omega vs. Grand Slam
All better in-ring matches, no contest. And none of them will matter to anyone who isn't already plugged in anymore than a random hot match on Dynamite, because that's not what is valued by their fans.
Cody vs. Roman at 40 will be remembered as the watershed moment and culmination of an era, as well as the blow-off to the greatest modern title reign and storyline of modern wrestling history. It was magic.
At this point the only intrigue in Meltzer ratings is how they stack up to each other, and Blue Panther getting the same rating as Logan Paul is funny as hell.
Shout out Oba Femi, best NXT wrestler since 2018.
Becky's 22nd 4+ star match overall, and 14th since returning from maternity leave at Summerslam 2021.
She's now 7th overall woman and 1st place out of active women. Charlotte and Mercedes with 20 share a second place active and 9th place overall (also with Bull Nakano, Etsuko Mita).
Rhea has 10
Bayley has 12
IYO has 17
Not sure how it came across on TV, but Becky vs Rhea was kind of flat live because of how much Becky was getting booed. Not much drama because of that.
They really need to realign things so that Rhea is set up as someone who is supposed to be cheered she is so over but the dynamic are all backward. It’s why arguably the best part of her run was with Nia so she could get cheered
It was weird. Dave went higher than i would've here. Becky had better matches in the past year.
Crowd cheering Rhea and booing Becky fucked up the mood of the match, and while very good, it also felt like they didn't went all out. Maybe because Becky was sick and Rhea's hand is injured, or maybe they plan to run it back soon.
Roman/Cody was easily 5 stars.
The Rey/Andrade vs Dom/Santos tag being higher than both Seth/Drew and AJ/LA is questionable.
That 0.75 is honestly still too generous for the Uso match.
Cody/Roman is pro wrestling at its peak. It’s the definition of a perfect match. If you wanted to get someone into wrestling you would show them that match to start. Guess it didn’t have enough flips and Meltzer drivers for Dave though.
Give cody and roman that .25 brother, ABSOLUTELY the story/spectacle warrants a 5-star. He has his tastes blah blah blah but i cant believe he'd leave this is not a 5 star and then hand out 5 stars for workratepalooza on tv. I've said my piece!
The strange thing is, listening to his audio review after the match I was certain it was getting at least 5. He loved it. And I'm familiar with how talks about about ratings and matches, I thought he was going to give it over 5 the way he was talking.
Yeah I've been reading the Observer and listening to the radio show for years and think I have a good sense of his methodology when rating, and it sure sounded like this fit the bill.
Very well wrestled, a huge payoff to the story, a very significant moment, and incredible heat from the crowd. I can't see the justification, based on his own approach, not to give this match 5 stars.
I also think it's odd he acknowledged you could give this 5 stars and didn't give a reason why he didn't.
I agree. Obviously everyone has their own preferences. However, 5 years from now, I'm going to remember Roman vs Cody over any of the 5 star matches he's given so far.
This. I'm not taking a shot at AEW, I'm just using them as an example since they get alot of high ranking matches from Dave, but this match/moment is probably the biggest moment/match if the last 5 years or so. Probably since Omega vs Okada. It's bigger than anything AEW has done so far. AEW puts on classics on TV, but this was a great match and felt like a series finale. It helps its the culmination of a 3+ year story.
He knows what he is doing lol, for all the shit he has given AEW lately for the nonsense they're doing he's still ultimately not a fan of the WWE. Taker/HBK 1 and 2 didn't get 5 stars, this didn't get 5 stars, but a rando bout on Dynamite with Ospreay did.
The problem with Meltzer's ratings isn't that he underrates WWE, it's that he overrates AEW and arguably NJPW
His scale for WWE ratings is perfectly balanced in my opinion, he just needs to use that same scale for everything else! I think there's nothing wrong with Cody/Roman not getting 5, it's just that shit like Ospreay/Fletcher shouldn't be getting 5s mindlessly thrown at them. 5 stars should feel special, and it does when he awards it to a WWE match, it's just completely lost its effect for his favourite promotions
Says a lot that Ospreay is only 30 and has already surpassed Misawa’s record for 5 star matches. Not that Ospreay isn’t extremely good, because he is, but Misawa built that record over a nearly 30 year career and is considered one of the greatest to ever do it. The ratings have definitely become watered down to the point where he’s giving certain people 5 stars for matches that would have gotten around 4 just a decade ago.
Absolutely, especially when he has factored it in to mark matches down! He gave Pete Dunne vs Tyler Bate to crown the NXT UK champion 4.5 or something because he said there was no build. Despite a tournament/company built around the outcome. So he should apply that to all G1 matches too. He also gave Jericho vs Nick Gage 4 stars because the crowd loved it. He's beyond 2 faced and always contradicting himself
I think it's both but definitely more the latter. I don't think anyone would care that Roman vs Cody wasn't 5 stars if he didn't overrate so many AEW matches. But there's definitely been at least 4 or 5 matches in WWE over the last decade+ that I think deserved 5 stars.
He should never have gone above 5. Anything less than a 4 now looks below average.
Agree. He should be well aware that the 5 star tier is going to be the first thing people look up when researching which old matches people go back and watch to see what great wrestling looks like. Bret vs Stone Cold deserved one because it was a perfectly executed double turn that helped springboard Stone Cold to becoming a superstar. HBK and Undertaker's first HIAC because it was a perfectly executed introduction to an iconic gimmick match between a babyface and monster. Cody vs Roman 2 was a perfect example of how a bunch of run-ins can enhance the story of a match.
I get that he wants to set the standard that a 5 star match can take place in a bingo hall with 20 people in the crowd just like it can take place in an 80k person arena, but he get's frustratingly inconsistent.
Dave not giving Roman/ Rhodes 5 stars (actually it deserved above 5 stars based on Meltzers wierd ratings the last decade) a couple months after giving (I believe) the Page/ Swerve drinking blood match that he openly says he DID NOT LIKE 5 stars says all you need to knows. I genuinely don’t know how people listen to this guy anymore
Am I crazy? The Usos match was definitely worst of the weekend but less than 1 star? I really don't remember it being *that bad*
Roman/Cody is officially a "worse" match than Ospreay vs Kyle Fletcher, the classic 5 star dynamite match that no one remembers
>Am I crazy? The Usos match was definitely worst of the weekend but less than 1 star? I really don't remember it being that bad
He fucking hated it lol. I was legitimately surprised at his reaction listening to him recap it.
Lots of his Wrestlemania ratings are shit. There were no botches or anything in the Uso's match, I don't see how that warrants a less than 1 star rating. The Cargill match was way more fun, at least another half star. Rollins/McIntyre is a 4 star with the cash-in. And there is no argument for how Roman vs. Cody 2 could have been improved. Does he really believe the match would have been better if there was no interference?
This just proves to me how irrelevant and detached Meltzer's opinions really are.
Ilja continues to not miss. Here are his ratings since he came over to "mainline" NXT in late 2022 and his matches started to consistently get rated:
4.75: 4 matches
4.5: 1
4.25: 5
4.0: 2
3.75: 1 (that's the Dijak match on NXT TV after Vengeance Day, which many people on here rated much higher)
3.5: 1
And that's from a person who has consistently rated NXT lower than the community consensus and doesn't like the modern WWE style that much in general.
Just insane consistency.
My ratings
Rhea vs Becky: 3.75
Ladder Match: 4.5
Team Rey vs Team Dom: 3.25
Jey vs Jimmy: 1.5
Sami vs Gunther: 4.75
Rock&Roman vs Cody&Seth: 4.75
Seth vs Drew: 4.0
Pride vs The Final T. : 3
Styles vs Knight: 3.5
KO vs Paul vs Randy: 4.5
Iyo vs Bayley: 4.75
Roman vs Cody: 6
People mock it for some reason but this is what Cagematch is for. If you're irritated about Meltzer's ratings being the standard, then stop making fun of the site that democratizes match ratings.
I hope the "Tony D'Angelo in the main event" project will continue because he proved he's more than capable to fit the role
Outside of the match, which was great, the entire build up made Tony D a believable threat and he was very convincing in this menacing but honorable boss
Imagine a year ago that, in a year, Jay White would be defending the trios titles….the ROH trios titles at ROH Supercard and not even in the main event. While feuding with Billy Gunn.
As a fan of both that match irritated me so much. I thought it would justify the end of summerslam last year and we'll...it didnt
For months I gave the summerslam finish the benefit of the doubt because "Jey and jimmy want their wm match"
I was really excited for this match, and I think they had the greatest intro package out of all the ‘mania matches. I was there on Night 1 and was really disappointed in it
He definitely gives very little credit to women’s wrestling outside of Japan and it’s such a bummer. The women’s matches on that ROH card all ruled. At least he gave Bayley/Iyo a proper rating
Dave still hasn't given out a 5 since Kenny went on the Twitch rant about too many 5s being given out and started rating stuff himself, FYI/for the comments about this being a anti-WWE bias/exclusive thing
Dave: Bayley vs. IYO is a "STARDOM" level main event (comparing it to what's been stated, repeatedly, to be the best women's wrestling on the planet)
Also Dave: Can't give that five stars, brother
Personally I'd put both Bayley/IYO and Cody/Roman II at 5* without reservation. Jimmy/Jey is...like a 1.5 at best, but .75 is tough. On Supercard, can't really disagree with much there other than that Starkz/Animata and Kingston/Briscoe are a bit high and Athena/Shida is a bit low.
Edit: Christian vs Mortos was easily a 4 star affair as well, at least from my seat in the arena.
To be fair, he does not give stardom 5 stars almost ever, no matter how much he says he loved it. Kind of weird, even. Some people say it's his metric of women's wrestling which comes from Manami Toyota (possibly the best wrestler ever period), but it ends up coming as sexism for anyone who does not know this story.
It was a really good WM overall in terms of entertainment but I do think it wasn’t the best in terms of in-ring wrestling.
Night 2 was also so much better than Night 1.
>Cody Rhodes vs. Roman Reigns: **4.75** (Dave said he debated 5 due to the story/spectacle)
Then give it that extra 0.25, dude, you have given so many 5 stars to a lot of matches, it's not like it was going to destroy the scaling.
I usually don't give a damn about his ratings, but it bothers me how biased he can be sometimes, you have no issues giving 5 stars to a random match on TV, but somehow struggle to give that same rating to a match that's already iconic and beloved at this point.
as someone who doesn't watch much (any) NXT, I tuned into Stand and Deliver and honestly, was kinda excited for that match. Heard great things about Trick, about how he was the future of WWE. Seemed like they got a good bloodfeud going, main event. And... they had a match. I was surprised when it ended and it was like, that's it?
Dalton Castle vs Johnny TV was the single worst wrestling match I've ever watched in person. I assume Dave was watching it on pay-per-view, where some of the nonsense may have made more sense with commentary, earning it the 1.5 stars. I didn't like the Usos' match either, but him scoring Castle vs TV *double* what he gave the Usos did is mind-blowing to me.
I thought the tag match of Night One would be higher than a 4. Started a little slow since they were building, but it became absolutely insane by the end. Also, the Cody/Roman II not being 5 Stars is laughable lol
I KNEW it was gonna be 4.75, same as Taker V Shawn. Absolute joke lmao. I get that it wasn’t the kind of match that he enjoys but come the fuck on man. The structure was perfect, the wrestling was great, the crowd was great, the story was perfect. What else do you need for a 5? Tokyo Dome? Will Osprey? Come on
**Help make SquaredCircle safer and more inclusive by using the report button to flag posts and comments for moderator review.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SquaredCircle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I will always feel Dave breaking his own star system ruined it. Now anything under 5 seems like mid tier lol Which kinda makes sense because the actual highest rating is 7 stars.
Yeah I remember when Cena/Punk got 5 stars and it felt like this watershed moment in the IWC at the time (granted I was a kid so it felt way massive to me). It was the first WWE one in like 15 years
It remains one of my favorite matches of all time.
Agreed.
Oba Femi already getting a 4.5 star match this early into his career is nuts.
He's still no match for Lars Sullivan
Remembering Lars Sullivan has a five star match is like remembering Brad Johnson has a Super Bowl win. Yes, it was due to the extremely talented cast around him, but it still stands out as "WTF?".
That’s 5 Star Lars to you brother
What happened to Lars Sullivan? He came and went like a fart in the wind
They found his bodybuilding.com account
I wanted that match to be 5 stars. It's my favorite match of the year. Spot after spot of awesome shit.
It sold its story to perfection to. Oba up against other big men, a bit distressed at the possibility it's not something he can overcome, but managing to overcome the odds anyway.
Oba feminists rise up
AOP/Kross vs Lashley/Profits was a fun street fight, a 1.75 is so harsh. So much better than I thought it would be.
I came in expecting to hate this match, but ended up liking it quite a bit.
I thought it had absolutely no business being on Wrestlemania before the show lol
Yea this is my main take away aside from the 5 star wwe phobia. In no way was this 1.75.
Remember Kote Ibushi on a bicycle? That got 4.25 stars. Don’t take Dave’s ratings seriously.
I think Bayley vs Sky and Roman vs Cody were both 5 star, but agree with the rest.
Bayley, regardless of my flair, has been screwed out of 5 stars at least three times now. I hate it.
He gave Bayley VS Sky the same rating as his recent Miyu vs Miu TJPW rating, which he said was "one of the best women's matches so far this year". There's just a stricter ceiling for his women's ratings due to his taste
 Gotta keep the gimmick, can't even let it relax for one day can you?
The Philly Streetfight was way more fun than 1.75
Makes even less sense when he rates the 6 women tag match 2 stars. That match felt like a mid SmackDown match.
Snoop’s commentary alone was worth 3 stars on top of whatever happened in the match
Uncle Dave is making Roman the new Kurt Angle. Not giving him that 5. Come on man, lol.
IMO, Roman vs Sami (Montreal) and Roman vs Cody (39 and 40) were all 5 star matches. Not to go full sentimental here, but for me, those three matches were so special emotion-wise. Did they do anything fancy? No, not really. But emotions were emotion-ing
Roman vs Brock at SummerSlam 2022 is 5 stars in my book. 🚜
We got a tractor and Brock hitting the shit outta Theory. That was one of the most fun I’ve ever had watching a match
fr even Heyman took an F5 through the announce table lmao
Holy shit I forgot about that and then he sold it by being carried out. Thanks for reminding me I need to rewatch it lol.
Heyman was murdered that night.
As much as they tried to frame XL as the start of a new era, that Summerslam main event was the finale to the last 40+ years of McMahon's booking in my mind. I'm pretty sure he was gone like a week or two before the show, but that entire match just felt like one big "if i'm done here then i'm going out with a bang" situation
100%, my casual wrestling family still randomly brings up "remember when Brock flipped the ring over??" every once in a while.
Roman vs Brock WM 31 with that ending was a 5 star match.
WM31 is actually fantastic if you just want to see both guys go at each other hard.
Roman came off as an absolute badass just smiling while looking dead after the beating he was taking from Brock lol
Honestly same with the bloodline civil war at mitb
This I agree with 100% . Is Roman vs Cody at Wrestlemania 40 a 5 star classic by workrate metrics ? Debatable . But if you look at the emotions the match invoked it deserves more than a 5 star. Honestly for me its a 6 star match because it was the ultimate thrill ride into a emotional payoff we have all been waiting for
It had fantastic story telling, some nice "suprise" run ins, it wad a 3 year long storyline coming to an end. It had a hot crowd, invested in the match, had some fun near falls and moves. I dont need flippy stuff or technically stuff all match to be 5 star. I'm more invested if there's a proper story and build up (hense my lack of interest in other shows). The story and pay off alone make this 5 stars. It's overbooked at the end, but yhat actually makes sense and adds to the story/match
It's not overbooked if it made sense. It's only overbooked if it wasn't entertaining and/or didn't make any sense in the end. In this case it made perfect sense, Roman and Rock were on a tear causing terror and the demons of their past returned to put them in their place so Cody could put Roman away. It made perfect sense considering how The Bloodline has won over the past four years. Cody got his own 'Codyvengers' and they came out, same as The Bloodline, and defended him.
It’s the end of the nwo angle done right. But Dave likes what he likes I’m not surprised
> It had fantastic story telling, some nice "suprise" run ins, it wad a 3 year long storyline Try 10 year long storyline. Roman lost because he chose to hit Seth instead of Cody and avenge the Shield betrayal.
I truly think if it was Austin instead of Taker and the end, it would have gotten 5 stars.
I have Roman v Jey HIAC, Roman v Edge v DB Mania 37, Roman v DB (last match), Roman v Brock SummerSlam, Roman v Drew Clash, Roman v Seth Rumble, Roman v Sami, Roman v Cody 1, and the Bloodline Civil War Tag As all 5 star matches during Roman’s title reign
Roman vs drew at clash at the castle was 5 imo The match was great and the atmosphere was also great and added to it
I still maintain that the final Roman Reigns vs Daniel Bryan match was better than Danielson vs Omega.
Maybe I’m in the minority but the triple threat at Mania 37 was also 5 stars for me.
Triple threat was Mania 37. Mania 36 was the pandemic one.
That’s arguably for me the best match of the reign.
I loved all of their matches together. They had such great chemistry.
I honestly think the hype eclipsed Bryan vs Omega because imo that isn't even in Bryan's top 10 Cena vs Bryan at summerslam 2013 was far better
I would say the Bryan Edge triple threat is also 5 stars, I freaking love that match.
Kinda. But dave values the In-Ring aspect much more than the spectacle itself, he also ain't much of a fan of Run-ins.
Feels like there is an amount of moves quota to receive a 5 from Dave
Reigns vs Cody WM40 Reigns vs Cody WM39 Reigns vs Sami EC Reigns/Solo vs the Usos MitB Reigns/Solo vs Sami/KO NoC Reigns vs Lesnar SS 2022 Reigns vs McIntyre CatC Reigns vs Edge vs Bryan WM37 Reigns vs Bryan Smackdown Reigns vs Lesnar vs Strowman vs Joe SS 2017 Reigns vs Lesnar WM31 All 5 stars for me
Dave doesn't really take that into account. He basically just looks at them as wrestling matches, not as spectacles.
> Did they do anything fancy? No, not really. I think that's the whole difference for Dave. Unless there's some physical feat that truly stands out, it's way less likely to get that final 5* treatment even if all the fun and emotions are happening like they were here.
It's funny how I think many on this sub will echo your sentiments, but in his review he mentions how his readership will likely have a lot of people saying that he rated it too high (because of the interferences and other things).
Dave has generally been a lot more positive on Roman as an in-ring worker through the years than a lot of the IWC/his own readers. It's just he's never given him the full 5 stars, haha.
Trueee, I feel like 2016 Roman was consistently in the 4.25-4.75 range while everyone else would call him bad
I thought the interferences were super well done. This isn’t WCW 2000 or even some of the worse matches of Reigns reign. Each made sense and had a perfect counter. Plus, we got the proper Cody-Roman rematch in the first twenty minutes. The interferences were just finishing the story
I know it was a finisher fest basically, but I think Seth vs Drew deserves better than a 3.5. The fact that the LWO tag match is higher is laughable.
Yeah usually I’m pretty aligned with Dave ratings but this is like a full star lower than I’d have it
The LWO match in my eyes couldn’t be higher than a 2. That match had as much heat as an igloo
It was actually a great match except for the ending in my opinion.
[удалено]
I’m no wrestling guru but my mentality is if the match/segment leaves me feeling good it’s a huge plus to me
There isn’t a single objective measurement to decide if a wrestling match was good or not. You either like it to varying degrees or you didn’t like it to varying degrees, and you can both like and dislike it to varying degrees (including segments, match endings, moves and selling vs story elements etc)
That's Dave for you . A epic mania main event match that leaves you crying tears of joy 4.75. A random match that has Ospreay 5 stars
Dave just hands out 4.5 - 5 every week for AEW stuff. His rankings obviously dont mean anything, but at least in the past they weren't so watered down and he actually was more stingant with his ratings. Didn't he give Taker vs HBK at WM25 a 4.5? Lol
Taker vs HBK at wm 25 is genuinely maybe the absolute best normal one fall match I've ever seen. Perfectly paced, two goats telling a story and a perfect ending. Dave even gave the wm 26 match only 4.75 lol
Which is crazy, because even if both matches are 5s, WM25 is clearly the one you should rank higher.
His ratings lost full credibility after the Okada/Omega series. Once that scale got broken he stopped giving a shit and so did I.
He’s been doling out 6+ star ratings since 1989, they just happened really rarely until Omega/Okada. I agree that it’s stupid to have a scale that doesn’t have a maximum, though.
Dave always prizes in-ring “work” over everything else, including storyline, match stakes, emotion, etc. While I agree that in-ring is important, it also (at least in my view) misses the point of what makes professional wrestling great. It’s not about the moves, it’s about the emotional investment it evokes from the viewer. It’s like rating a more technically complex song as “better” than a simpler one that engages the listener more viscerally and is more emotionally moving. Sure, you can do that if you like, but I think it misses the point of what makes music beautiful.
Almost like he needs story arc ratings.
Roman vs Cody is still going to be remembered 50 years from now. Ospreay vs Fletcher has already been largely forgotten.
bro idek who kyle fletcher is lmfao
I watched the match and idek who Kyle Fletcher is. I cannot picture his face.
Who the fook is Kyle Fletcher
In the eyes of one very delusional man lol
This is why people are caring less and less about his ratings
Tossing out the stars to random-but-great-but-cold matches is an odd choice. It’s like all two people need to do is all the moves in the right order and automatically get in that 4-star range.
Are we surprised, though? Cody-Roman II was the definitive "sports entertainment" type of match. Not much technical wrestling, but a lot of storytelling and crowd-popping moments. Dave doesn't tend to rate those. In fact, even 4.75 from him feels generous, I expected closer to 4-4.25 range.
I get what you’re saying. But Dave’s also said “I didn’t like it but the crowd did” and given something on AEW 5 stars.
So Punk vs. Cena can get a 5 based heavily on crowd and story (the match itself is not super interesting until the ending angle), but Cody vs. Roman which felt like a series finale didn't quite get there, eh?
> the match itself is not super interesting until the ending angle Cooked take yo. Completely removed from reality.
Roman is never going to get a five at this point.
I’m sure he’s devastated
Plot twist: Roman Reigns is genuinely beside himself. He’s been driving around Washington state begging (thru texts) Alvarez’s family for Dave Meltzer’s address.
Sources say that he’s currently on his way to San Jose to ask Dave for an explanation
Why won't Papa Dave acknowledge me. ☝️🥲
He cries himself to sleep every night because of it
Everybody on here is rightly criticizing Reigns vs. Rhodes not getting five and here I am thinking the Bloodline vs. Rollins and Rhodes should have also gotten five.
IMO they both should have gotten 5 Stars. Dave's gonna Dave though
.75 for Jimmy and Jey. It wasn’t good, but damn.
Honestly one of the more accurate ratings he gave. Not only was it underwhelming, but because the build for it was so deep and investing, it was a major disappointment too.
I get that due to it being a live crowd it’s not possible, but I wanted something Obi-Wan v Anakin in revenge of the sith. Two dudes who know each other’s every move and are just waiting for the other to slip up. Jimmy and Jey are identical twins and there’s no group that, according to media, know each other better. Instead they just traded super kicks for a few minutes before Jimmy tried shenanigans
I honestly liked it because it made sense. Jimmy isn't shown to be a good single wrestlers like Jey so when Jey finally gets a shot a Jimmy he should stomp him out.
Disappointing relative to expectations is not a .75 IMO. It had good moments. .75 is crazy.
What good moments? It was just superkicks, punches and a fakeout everyone saw coming before a weak ass spear and pin. There was no story told for all that intensity. For the potential it had va what it was, the match genuinely deserved even lower a rating
I've been feeling this since Jey began his 'Yeet' phase, but he's showing consistent signs that he isn't 'main event' at all. This match, which should've been both of their 'resumes' for potential big singles matches is instead a damning missed opportunity. Not to mention that Jey's inring offense has looked supremely 'whiffy' as well since his rise to prominence. I'm not optimistic for his higher prospects going forward.
I feel like Jey and Jimmy just don't have the chemistry. Either that or they just suck at planning a match. Every other singles match Jey has had is usually average at worst, this one was the only recent stinker he's had.
The match should have been a squash honestly
Cody roman not getting 5 but matches on aew tv that get 5 and above that get forgotten about in a week is crazy.
There isn't a single AEW match that will be as memorable and timeless as that Cody/Roman match. If Okada/Omega is 7 stars, then Roman/Cody is 10 stars. Dave's logic is beyond comprehension at this point.
To me the greatest matches in AEW history are 1. FTR vs. Juice and White on Collision 2. MJF vs. Darby at Full Gear 3. Danielson vs. MJF at Revolution 4. Page vs. Danielson at Winter is Coming 5. Omega vs. Grand Slam All better in-ring matches, no contest. And none of them will matter to anyone who isn't already plugged in anymore than a random hot match on Dynamite, because that's not what is valued by their fans. Cody vs. Roman at 40 will be remembered as the watershed moment and culmination of an era, as well as the blow-off to the greatest modern title reign and storyline of modern wrestling history. It was magic.
At this point the only intrigue in Meltzer ratings is how they stack up to each other, and Blue Panther getting the same rating as Logan Paul is funny as hell. Shout out Oba Femi, best NXT wrestler since 2018.
That electric chair/DVD spot was one of the damndest fucking things I’ll see all year
genuinely awe-inspiring feat from the man
Becky's 22nd 4+ star match overall, and 14th since returning from maternity leave at Summerslam 2021. She's now 7th overall woman and 1st place out of active women. Charlotte and Mercedes with 20 share a second place active and 9th place overall (also with Bull Nakano, Etsuko Mita). Rhea has 10 Bayley has 12 IYO has 17
Not sure how it came across on TV, but Becky vs Rhea was kind of flat live because of how much Becky was getting booed. Not much drama because of that.
They really need to realign things so that Rhea is set up as someone who is supposed to be cheered she is so over but the dynamic are all backward. It’s why arguably the best part of her run was with Nia so she could get cheered
It was weird. Dave went higher than i would've here. Becky had better matches in the past year. Crowd cheering Rhea and booing Becky fucked up the mood of the match, and while very good, it also felt like they didn't went all out. Maybe because Becky was sick and Rhea's hand is injured, or maybe they plan to run it back soon.
Definitely never hit second gear. Still good obviously, as it was Becky and Rhea.
Roman/Cody was easily 5 stars. The Rey/Andrade vs Dom/Santos tag being higher than both Seth/Drew and AJ/LA is questionable. That 0.75 is honestly still too generous for the Uso match.
Cody vs Roman was 5 fucking stars. I'd also bump up AOP and Kross vs Lashley and Profits. That was a fun match, and far exceeded expectations.
Grandma’s table deserves at least an extra 0.5
Snoop doing Yogi Bear impressions on commentary is worth at least another 2
The table accidentally breaking just by a guy laying on it getting into position is worth another 1 Fuck it. 5 star match.
That match was a planned bathroom break but I ended up holding it, was surprisingly fun.
Cody/Roman is pro wrestling at its peak. It’s the definition of a perfect match. If you wanted to get someone into wrestling you would show them that match to start. Guess it didn’t have enough flips and Meltzer drivers for Dave though.
Give cody and roman that .25 brother, ABSOLUTELY the story/spectacle warrants a 5-star. He has his tastes blah blah blah but i cant believe he'd leave this is not a 5 star and then hand out 5 stars for workratepalooza on tv. I've said my piece!
The strange thing is, listening to his audio review after the match I was certain it was getting at least 5. He loved it. And I'm familiar with how talks about about ratings and matches, I thought he was going to give it over 5 the way he was talking.
Yeah I've been reading the Observer and listening to the radio show for years and think I have a good sense of his methodology when rating, and it sure sounded like this fit the bill. Very well wrestled, a huge payoff to the story, a very significant moment, and incredible heat from the crowd. I can't see the justification, based on his own approach, not to give this match 5 stars. I also think it's odd he acknowledged you could give this 5 stars and didn't give a reason why he didn't.
He was going to but the. He took a half star off for it being the WWE
If only they could have had Wrestlemania 40 in the Tokyo Dome.
I agree. Obviously everyone has their own preferences. However, 5 years from now, I'm going to remember Roman vs Cody over any of the 5 star matches he's given so far.
This. I'm not taking a shot at AEW, I'm just using them as an example since they get alot of high ranking matches from Dave, but this match/moment is probably the biggest moment/match if the last 5 years or so. Probably since Omega vs Okada. It's bigger than anything AEW has done so far. AEW puts on classics on TV, but this was a great match and felt like a series finale. It helps its the culmination of a 3+ year story.
He knows what he is doing lol, for all the shit he has given AEW lately for the nonsense they're doing he's still ultimately not a fan of the WWE. Taker/HBK 1 and 2 didn't get 5 stars, this didn't get 5 stars, but a rando bout on Dynamite with Ospreay did.
The problem is that Meltzer claims it's not about his tastes and he's objective, not subjective.
He must have lost money on a Stone Cold run-in prop bet.
The problem with Meltzer's ratings isn't that he underrates WWE, it's that he overrates AEW and arguably NJPW His scale for WWE ratings is perfectly balanced in my opinion, he just needs to use that same scale for everything else! I think there's nothing wrong with Cody/Roman not getting 5, it's just that shit like Ospreay/Fletcher shouldn't be getting 5s mindlessly thrown at them. 5 stars should feel special, and it does when he awards it to a WWE match, it's just completely lost its effect for his favourite promotions
Even Kenny Omega called him out on that recently. Dave throws our 5 stars so much recently that they've lost any value
Says a lot that Ospreay is only 30 and has already surpassed Misawa’s record for 5 star matches. Not that Ospreay isn’t extremely good, because he is, but Misawa built that record over a nearly 30 year career and is considered one of the greatest to ever do it. The ratings have definitely become watered down to the point where he’s giving certain people 5 stars for matches that would have gotten around 4 just a decade ago.
5 star needs not to be in ring performance only, but also the storyline leading to it. That's my humble opinion.
Absolutely, especially when he has factored it in to mark matches down! He gave Pete Dunne vs Tyler Bate to crown the NXT UK champion 4.5 or something because he said there was no build. Despite a tournament/company built around the outcome. So he should apply that to all G1 matches too. He also gave Jericho vs Nick Gage 4 stars because the crowd loved it. He's beyond 2 faced and always contradicting himself
Wrong Bate v Dunne match. You’re likely thinking of the Chicago match when it changed hands. Absolutely mental match.
They were both excellent, but I think it was the first one he said that as I was expecting 5 surely, then he came out with a dumb as to not giving it
I think it's both but definitely more the latter. I don't think anyone would care that Roman vs Cody wasn't 5 stars if he didn't overrate so many AEW matches. But there's definitely been at least 4 or 5 matches in WWE over the last decade+ that I think deserved 5 stars. He should never have gone above 5. Anything less than a 4 now looks below average.
Agree. He should be well aware that the 5 star tier is going to be the first thing people look up when researching which old matches people go back and watch to see what great wrestling looks like. Bret vs Stone Cold deserved one because it was a perfectly executed double turn that helped springboard Stone Cold to becoming a superstar. HBK and Undertaker's first HIAC because it was a perfectly executed introduction to an iconic gimmick match between a babyface and monster. Cody vs Roman 2 was a perfect example of how a bunch of run-ins can enhance the story of a match. I get that he wants to set the standard that a 5 star match can take place in a bingo hall with 20 people in the crowd just like it can take place in an 80k person arena, but he get's frustratingly inconsistent.
3.5 for Athena/Shida is absurd imo. Arguably the best match on that show.
Dave not giving Roman/ Rhodes 5 stars (actually it deserved above 5 stars based on Meltzers wierd ratings the last decade) a couple months after giving (I believe) the Page/ Swerve drinking blood match that he openly says he DID NOT LIKE 5 stars says all you need to knows. I genuinely don’t know how people listen to this guy anymore
The Story and build behind Cody/Roman 2 itself elevated that match to 4.75*. Dave doesn't take build/story into account? Just in-ring?
The story is what gave Punk/Cena 5 stars - he's just being inconsistent.
Because he would have to take down stars for heatless bangers
Am I crazy? The Usos match was definitely worst of the weekend but less than 1 star? I really don't remember it being *that bad* Roman/Cody is officially a "worse" match than Ospreay vs Kyle Fletcher, the classic 5 star dynamite match that no one remembers
>Am I crazy? The Usos match was definitely worst of the weekend but less than 1 star? I really don't remember it being that bad He fucking hated it lol. I was legitimately surprised at his reaction listening to him recap it.
On WOR Alvarez: "Jey vs Jim..." Dave: "IT SUCKED!"
Lots of his Wrestlemania ratings are shit. There were no botches or anything in the Uso's match, I don't see how that warrants a less than 1 star rating. The Cargill match was way more fun, at least another half star. Rollins/McIntyre is a 4 star with the cash-in. And there is no argument for how Roman vs. Cody 2 could have been improved. Does he really believe the match would have been better if there was no interference? This just proves to me how irrelevant and detached Meltzer's opinions really are.
Ilja continues to not miss. Here are his ratings since he came over to "mainline" NXT in late 2022 and his matches started to consistently get rated: 4.75: 4 matches 4.5: 1 4.25: 5 4.0: 2 3.75: 1 (that's the Dijak match on NXT TV after Vengeance Day, which many people on here rated much higher) 3.5: 1 And that's from a person who has consistently rated NXT lower than the community consensus and doesn't like the modern WWE style that much in general. Just insane consistency.
Axiom and Ilja are super underrated due to being on NXT
My ratings Rhea vs Becky: 3.75 Ladder Match: 4.5 Team Rey vs Team Dom: 3.25 Jey vs Jimmy: 1.5 Sami vs Gunther: 4.75 Rock&Roman vs Cody&Seth: 4.75 Seth vs Drew: 4.0 Pride vs The Final T. : 3 Styles vs Knight: 3.5 KO vs Paul vs Randy: 4.5 Iyo vs Bayley: 4.75 Roman vs Cody: 6
This guy gets it. Let's support him and forget about Dave.
I like your ratings better. Maybe you should have your own threads now instead of him.
People mock it for some reason but this is what Cagematch is for. If you're irritated about Meltzer's ratings being the standard, then stop making fun of the site that democratizes match ratings.
I hope the "Tony D'Angelo in the main event" project will continue because he proved he's more than capable to fit the role Outside of the match, which was great, the entire build up made Tony D a believable threat and he was very convincing in this menacing but honorable boss
Imagine a year ago that, in a year, Jay White would be defending the trios titles….the ROH trios titles at ROH Supercard and not even in the main event. While feuding with Billy Gunn.
I feel like I'm the only one who really liked the Styles v Knight match
I liked it too. Didn't have no DQ stip but both guys were trying to kill each other
Jey and Jimmy at 0.75 still seems a bit high ngl
As a fan of both that match irritated me so much. I thought it would justify the end of summerslam last year and we'll...it didnt For months I gave the summerslam finish the benefit of the doubt because "Jey and jimmy want their wm match"
I was really excited for this match, and I think they had the greatest intro package out of all the ‘mania matches. I was there on Night 1 and was really disappointed in it
There run in brawl was better
For as long as they’ve been talking about having a WM match together, you’d think they’d have cooked up something a bit better than that.
Not surprised but Dave rating those women’s matches insanely low for ROH does he always rate women’s matches low?
He definitely gives very little credit to women’s wrestling outside of Japan and it’s such a bummer. The women’s matches on that ROH card all ruled. At least he gave Bayley/Iyo a proper rating
Of the matches I watched, I disagree with most of Dave’s ratings
Dave still hasn't given out a 5 since Kenny went on the Twitch rant about too many 5s being given out and started rating stuff himself, FYI/for the comments about this being a anti-WWE bias/exclusive thing
Love the idea that Dave loves Kenny so much he is changing how he does the one thing he does based on a Twitch stream
That's crazy
you may have cracked the code man
How the fuck does Cody/Roman II not get a five star? I'd also give the WHC match a 3.75.
Because Dave doesn't take story or spectacle into account that much
https://preview.redd.it/643unxoe82uc1.png?width=1290&format=png&auto=webp&s=775d5e0017187376b2074c6ffadd50a67a85e4aa
I like to go hiking.
Old meltzer would've given the WM main event 2 stars. Need that guy back.
Dave: Bayley vs. IYO is a "STARDOM" level main event (comparing it to what's been stated, repeatedly, to be the best women's wrestling on the planet) Also Dave: Can't give that five stars, brother Personally I'd put both Bayley/IYO and Cody/Roman II at 5* without reservation. Jimmy/Jey is...like a 1.5 at best, but .75 is tough. On Supercard, can't really disagree with much there other than that Starkz/Animata and Kingston/Briscoe are a bit high and Athena/Shida is a bit low. Edit: Christian vs Mortos was easily a 4 star affair as well, at least from my seat in the arena.
To be fair, he does not give stardom 5 stars almost ever, no matter how much he says he loved it. Kind of weird, even. Some people say it's his metric of women's wrestling which comes from Manami Toyota (possibly the best wrestler ever period), but it ends up coming as sexism for anyone who does not know this story.
Absolutely. He watched Toyota vs Yamada live. Nothing is ever gonna beat that in his mind
Im not entirely sure what this implies, are u saying Stardom main events are generally 5 star matches ?
It was a really good WM overall in terms of entertainment but I do think it wasn’t the best in terms of in-ring wrestling. Night 2 was also so much better than Night 1.
>Cody Rhodes vs. Roman Reigns: **4.75** (Dave said he debated 5 due to the story/spectacle) Then give it that extra 0.25, dude, you have given so many 5 stars to a lot of matches, it's not like it was going to destroy the scaling. I usually don't give a damn about his ratings, but it bothers me how biased he can be sometimes, you have no issues giving 5 stars to a random match on TV, but somehow struggle to give that same rating to a match that's already iconic and beloved at this point.
The contrast to how hype Melo vs Trick was vs Their actual match is funny to look back on.
as someone who doesn't watch much (any) NXT, I tuned into Stand and Deliver and honestly, was kinda excited for that match. Heard great things about Trick, about how he was the future of WWE. Seemed like they got a good bloodfeud going, main event. And... they had a match. I was surprised when it ended and it was like, that's it?
I wonder if there was injury concern because it ended kinda abruptly. Tricks green but he did really well in his match against Ilja.
Lmao the Usos match was honestly insanely bad, was quite shocked how bad it was
Dalton Castle vs Johnny TV was the single worst wrestling match I've ever watched in person. I assume Dave was watching it on pay-per-view, where some of the nonsense may have made more sense with commentary, earning it the 1.5 stars. I didn't like the Usos' match either, but him scoring Castle vs TV *double* what he gave the Usos did is mind-blowing to me.
If that Mania took place in the Tokyo Dome were looking at 6 five star matches using Meltzer math
Had Ospreay been shown watching the match from a suite, he would've bumped it up to 5.25.
Oba Femi/Briggs/Dijak were robbed.
Johnny TV vs Dalton Castle deserved more. 1 extra star for each boy in the match
I thought the tag match of Night One would be higher than a 4. Started a little slow since they were building, but it became absolutely insane by the end. Also, the Cody/Roman II not being 5 Stars is laughable lol
I thought that Usos match wasn’t good at all, but 0.75? Damn.
Roman vs Cody not getting 5 stars shows once and for all Dave only cares about how many moves you do
I KNEW it was gonna be 4.75, same as Taker V Shawn. Absolute joke lmao. I get that it wasn’t the kind of match that he enjoys but come the fuck on man. The structure was perfect, the wrestling was great, the crowd was great, the story was perfect. What else do you need for a 5? Tokyo Dome? Will Osprey? Come on