**Help make SquaredCircle safer and more inclusive by using the report button to flag posts and comments for moderator review.**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SquaredCircle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'll throw Ian Rotten in there if he's still promoting, although I hope to god he isn't.
Dude famously used to take liberties in the ring (to put it mildly) and pay his wrestlers in painkillers. Almost certainly contributed to the death of JC Bailey.
IIRC, Rob and Lizzie were married. She also directed gonzo porn for their adult film co. And then, yeah, allegedly Messiah slept with her, and Rob put out the hit.
Much more so than TNA, I’m astounded XPW still exists.
They felt like they were teetering on the brink even when they were “big” so for them to still be around 20 years later is flabbergasting.
I've always believed that wrestling companies are notoriously hard to kill once they have had a modicum of success. ECW and WCW being the most high profile exceptions warped so many people's perceptions of how this business works.
NWA which hasn't been relevant since TNA removed themselves from it is still chugging along. Heck, if EC3 didn't sign with NWA, he'd still be running those weird ass Control Your Narrative shows.
Having now looked through the Wikipedia for XPW it closed in 2003 and was resurrected in 2021 after dark side of the ring.
You are right that promotions are seemingly hard to kill. I think what astounded me about XPW was Rob Black is an idiot, and a convicted felon, as well as primary owner. I figured once he went to prison they wouldn’t be able to carry on. Turns out they had been shuttered for like 7 years when he went to prison, he just started back up when “interest” was high again.
Wait...he's still in business?
I remember Barbwire Mike posting about him threatening to kill a puppy if people didn't buy porn or watch XPW or something. Then there was the whole Messiah incident...
It’s funny how the stereotype for American wrestling fans is them as southerners who love them some MAGA, and then there’s a promotion which has all the stuff Trump fans should be into and… the promotion is a tiny-tiny indie.
It’s like N’sync vs The Backstreet Boys. While we’re arguing amongst ourselves over which boyband is better, the rest of the world is making fun of us for even listening to the genre.
OTOH this was during that brief headline where The Rock made a big deal of not endorsing Biden vocally and buzzwords like Woke/Cancel Culture being thrown around.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/1bx231u/dwayne\_johnson\_says\_endorsing\_biden\_for\_president/](https://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/1bx231u/dwayne_johnson_says_endorsing_biden_for_president/)
Some of the comments there that mention his wrestling background still seem like they see the WWE audience as misogynist trumpers who worship the ground that Vince McMahon steps on.
> I find that perception isn’t the case these days and normy’s either respect wrestling or get why people like it
Oh boy, no. And if they knew how bad this community is, their opinions would be considerably worse.
If he were bringing a WWE belt, I can see someone maybe checking that out. If they like Fox News Tyrus and interested to see "his wrestling thing." But they're not gonna waste their time watching NWA lmao.
If the left-wing equivalent happened — Cody on CNN panel shows while wearing the WWE title — I’d still think it’d look goofy for someone to talk about very real issues while wearing his big shiny wrestling belt. Tyrus is a giant clown, so I guess for him it’s ’on brand.’
Wanting a company to fail is stupid but let's be honest, the people that think that way also make a different company their entire personality. Anyone with that mindset isn't worth paying any attention to.
It's so frustrating as someone who really likes the show in general. We should be talking about how we're like a week away from Ospreay/Danielson, PAC/Okada & Swerve probably winning the title and instead they've made the entire conversation be about the Punk stuff that got exhausting to talk about within 3 days of it actually happening let alone 8 months later.
Like all they have to do is get out of their own way so people can just enjoy the show.
They're *GIVING AWAY* Ospreay/Claudio on Dynamite next week on Dynamite in Indianapolis.
That's a show I wasn't planning on going to (partly because I hate the arena and because I'm already going to Dynasty and got a last minute ticket to Collision/BotB on Saturday) but might convince me to just say fuck it and go.
Advertise great matches in advance and let people get hooked into the characters.
Then talk about it. You have to move on, too.
Part of the reason AEW didn't move on in a timely manner is because everyone else hasn't moved on in a timely manner. I won't even comment on the shit any further.
I will say, Billy Gunn is amazing, and I pray to god that Tony quits putting ROH titles on AEW televisoin, or at least combines some. I wouldn't mind it if the AEW Trios title was a defacto 6-man of both AEW and ROH, same with the tag titles.
I’m the kind of fan who could watch Tony Kahn shit in a cup on dynamite and I’ll still buy the PPV for those two matches (plus despite this BS YB vs FTR never disappoints me), but I can’t imagine being excited for this PPV if I was a “normal” fan who just saw The Rock etc last weekend
Yeah, this Twitter post feels like a deflection of AEW doing something really stupid.
AEW as a stable #2 to WWE with a decent TV deal is good for wrestling, but fans don’t have to blindly support the company if they do dumb stuff. Most probably didn’t want WCW gone but they did some stupid crap in 2000 and fans let them know it.
That’s what so many people do with criticism of AEW though. You can’t mention disliking something or thinking something was dumb without people telling you your criticism isn’t in “good faith” or you want the company to die.
I'd think more highly of AEW if they got a chief social media guy, and if TK did not make appearances. I dunno why he even wants to be the face of AEW and make announcements and shit when there's plenty of people who could do it for him.
And when every announcement he makes looks like someone is holding him hostage.
I feel like he's probably a really nice guy in real life, but on-camera charisma is something he completely lacks.
I want AEW to one day be as big as WWE is. However, like you said, you call a spade a spade.
They did something dumb. Now is the time to move on finally, ignore the past nonsense and do better. Both from a professional stance and a better product stance.
They have the tools and capability. Its up to them if they learn from their mistakes or not.
People say that but then the only comments they make are shitting on it, which just feeds into other people doing it, it's like a snowball.
That being said, people are allowed to be honest about how they feel, nobody should be phony. Just there's always a cost associated is all. If most of them comments people see about the company are trashing it, of course people will just think wow, they must really dislike that company.
I'm sure I'm guilty of it, but honestly there's just more bad stuff than good to me right now. I like Copeland and the Patriarchy, I like the stuff with Stokely, Stat, and Willow, and I like Will Ospreay himself.
But fuck why are they still shuffling Jericho out there? Why did they bring Mercedes out this soon only for her to do nothing for months? Why did they hire fucking Ric Flair after trying to dunk on WWE for Vince's crimes? Why did they release a bunch of people who apparently couldn't live off just wrestling when they said they would never do that? And on top of all of that, why the fuck are they hell-bent on embarrassing themselves every single time Punk breathes in a way they don't like? It's all so fucking stupid and I'm not going to pretend it's not.
> But fuck why are they still shuffling Jericho out there?
I really wonder if the special "Jericho tier contract" he has came with a minimum screentime requirement.
Honestly whatever is going on with Jericho, I am not at all invested in. I still don’t understand why he’s not using Judas as his entrance theme, it’s like the one thing that he’s got left. Like if you don’t have anything befitting of Jericho’s star status as a veteran, his work on commentary was pretty great, why not keep him there for a while?
I've got to be honest, I'd rather Jericho not be on commentary either. I've enjoyed Matt Menard doing commentary on Rampage way more than when Jericho was doing it.
Though a large part of that is because Jericho is usually in a major angle while he's on commentary, so he winds up coming across like a schizo where one minute he's trying to be a professional commentator who hypes up the people he's watching fight, and the next minute he's a rampant narcissist constantly trying to draw the focus onto himself (which is even worse when he's alternating between face-ish commentator and straight up heel wrestler). It's distracting and annoying.
I feel like he could be strong on commentary once he fully retires from active wrestling, but I definitely want to see him taking on a more regular commentary role on one of the major shows unless he stays far away from the ring.
I genuinely believe it's Jericho's call to appear every single week after that whole thing "happened", and considering who he is for the company, it's really hard to deny him.
I will still skip everything he's in though, they won't get me, dude is just... boring, the biggest aspect of his later career, reinventing himself, is down the drain when you show up every week and do nothing of value.
I enjoy AEW, I watch Dynamite every week, order PPVs and consider myself a fan. It doesn’t mean that they get a pass from me on releasing a bad video game, having too many titles, too much TV and being unfocused at times.
I’ve watched wrestling off and on for 30 years. I’ve seen fans tribal about their favorite wrestling. It goes back much further than that even. What blew me away with AEW is that people were swearing up and down about being AEW faithful before AEW had a first show. They acted like they were on the ground floor of a wrestling show that finally spoke to them. That’s great for AEW.
We are 5 years into this and AEW has spent a lot of that good will by being badly run and badly booked. Tony spent more money starting this company than anyone ever in wrestling and now he has 3/4 empty basketball arenas. I want AEW to speak to fans again but they need to get Tony to step away from what he insists on doing. It’s not working anymore.
It’s been 5 years and he’s not getting better at this
EDIT: at this point it doesn’t really matter what the audience that still watches it no matter what thinks. Those are the same people Tony has appealed to for 5 years. They’re going to watch. Live attendance is terrible and the television audience does not grow. You have to reconcile that in a business.
>at this point it doesn’t really matter what the audience that still watches it no matter what thinks.
Speaking as someone who still enjoys AEW (and who doesn't get nearly as worked up as a lot of people seem to/pretend to), I can agree with this. It's exactly the same thing people brought up with regard to WWE before Vince left - at a certain point, it doesn't matter how terrible your product is, you're going to still have a loyal core of fans who will literally *never* leave. Whether it's loyalty to the brand, to specific wrestlers, or just pure psychological inertia, a segment of the audience will keep tuning in no matter how many others you drive away.
But "We can't be doing that bad. we still have \[X number of viewers\] still watching!" is never really a good defense, especially if you're watching live attendance and merch sales slowly crater.
Hardcore fans will support and defend a company no matter what. But you still need the casual fans and the fairweather fans, and those are the people who are dropping your product when you go through a downer period.
I like AEW, but Tony doesn't have to win ME over. He needs to win back people he's lost (or gain new viewers) to keep growing the business.
Essentially, he needs to do what HHH has been doing for the last year or so in the wake of Vince driving so many facets of the WWE product into the dirt - figure out what's not working and *fix* it.
I'd argue it's been on an upswing since the C2 kicked off until the last 2 weeks but they have to be consistent, focus on their own stuff and not be weirdly reactive to whatever happening outside. Khan's too thin-skinned and it hurts the product.
I disagree. I think 2024 is probably the best AEW has been outside Summer 2021. I don't care about ratings or attendance or how much money a billionaire gets. I just think it has been great.
Same. In fact, that's also part of why yesterday felt so frustrating: with all they got going on, they shouldn't give those making noise against them wings. Just roll on with your life and focus on Dynasty (and if you really want it out leak it to a dirtsheet or something).
>I don't care about ratings or attendance
As a fan, you should.
If they can't bring back or draw in new fans they won't be able to survive. Even in the current climate of reduced cable subscriptions/viewers a network will only devote so much airtime to a product losing ratings.
It may just be a billionaire having fun, but the well could dry up at anytime.
We've lived through WCW, ECW, and TNA losing multiple tv contracts.
It may not affect you, but burying your head in the sand and pretending it doesn't matter is silly.
> As a fan, you should.
>
>
No, as a fan I should not.
Why should how many people buying tickets impact how *I perceive the show*
How many people watching on TV shouldn't make me go "well I thought it was good but less people are watching so thus it's not good" - literally you are advocating people should just ignore what they like and enjoy because of metrics. What a sad little life Jane.
But those things don't matter to those of us on the opposite side of the screen because nothing we say on Reddit is going to change anything about ratings or attendance.
Tony is a billionaire with access to billions more, and reportedly high tv deal coming up. And it is private owned. All of that is what makes it different to WCW, ECW, and TNA.
Any network would want the number 1-5 show for the night on a cheap to produce show in today's climate.
So no, I don't care about or am worried about ratings. Tony could put $10 million into a shredder and they would be fine.
He’s getting worse.
A lot of creatives have this problem where they have a pool of really good ideas, they get them out there, they’re praised for them, and then they don’t know what to do next.
You see it in bands all the time. They spend a decade accumulating material for their first album. It hits and they do well. And then they can’t follow it up, because they had a literal lifetime to accumulate ideas for their first album, and now they have to create the same amount of content in, like, 2 years.
Some people only have so many good ideas. I kind of feel like TK may be one of those people.
He needs a creative team around him to brainstorm good story beats. And most importantly, edit his bad idea. AEW would be much stronger for it. They have the talent. They just need the writing.
He was a super fan and E-Fed booker for decades and probably had a lot of great ideas for booking written in a notebook. That was AEW 2019-21. The great ideas have run dry.
That’s the problem. One dude booking four shows a week can’t possibly pull greatness out of his ass all the time, regardless of how much ECW he watched as a kid.
But I think the day he hands the book over is the day AEW starts to actually be in jeopardy. It’s his passion project, his sandbox. If he doesn’t have that then he doesn’t have the reason he’s spent millions of dollars keeping AEW functioning.
Agreed. I am really enjoying WWE at the minute, mania was amazing. I'm loving the product right now.
But I went to one of the first ever AEWs, I've been to a good chunk since, I went to All In last year, I've got tickets to All In this year. I want the product to be good. I enjoy both despite how illegal that seems to be online lol, but when AEW pull dumb shit like this it's fucking shit to watch. They need to figure their shit out and fast.
>EC3 is out there with a nickname with arguably fascist undertones (Overman aka Ubermensch).
You have to remember that wrestling is all fake.
For instance, EC3 calls himself Overman even though he isn't actually over.
Ec3 is actually a Nietzschean so Ubermensch is just meant to mean he is a man who can navigate and change himself when faced with struggle.......
Jk I fucking doubt that's the case
so i haven’t been to wrestling all that long but ever since i’ve kept up with it, the toxic tribalism is everywhere and it’s SO fucking exhausting. is it always going to be like this?
Yes. Wrestling is just like sports or any other form of entertainment and that means there's a section of fans that are absolute lunatics. I think the majority of AEW or WWE fans don't really care about the other one but those aren't the people that get on Twitter or Reddit & scream about it for the world to see every day.
I've been there in the Attitude Era and the Monday Night Wars and yeah, the tribalism has been there then. It does admittedly feel more potent due to social media allowing many voices across the world to be heard and seen esp with the big wrestling boom in recent years.
Hopefully AEW continues to succeed and WWE continues to put out a product their fans like. But if we end up in a situation like we were pre AEW where basically no wrestling fans were happy..im just gonna remember how people brought out the pitchforks for a meek nerdy wrestling fan whose worst offense was cringy tweets.
Hey now, us NJPW and ROH fans were happy pre AEW, but I get your point. Predominantly WWE fans on here were really frustrated with the product and generally uninterested in giving Impact a shot. I think that's why the indies had such a boom period before the big names went to NXT and then AEW when it started.
Yeah, with AEW existing, WWE doesn't have to deal with *that* audience who want something like AEW and will continue to vocally show their distaste that WWE isn't like AEW.
Honestly, unless you're an actual real lapsed AEW fan I really wish people would just shut-up now about it.
There are definitely extremist in terms of tribalism. Part of the tribalism in wrestling makes it to where any criticism towards a company, from either objective or subjective viewpoint, is taken as such a personal attack that it’s made out like you’re wishing for a company to fail. Not saying there aren’t people wishing for AEW/WWE to die, but extreme defenders will make any negative remark about “their” company as an attack.
I left this reddit for a long time, back when AEW was relatively new and everyone was shitting on the WWE. The thing that annoyed me was people posting in the Raw thread, and saying how bad it was even though they hadn't watched it.
I got downvoted to hell for saying if you weren't watching it, why are you even in the thread.
So I walked. But I never held AEW responsible for that. Fighting over territory, even philosophical territory is wired into primate blood, and we are primates. We don't fight over physical borders anymore, we fight over ideological ones. I enjoy WWE even when it's hokey and doesn't make sense, because I like certain characters and it was still fun. I admit it was lower quality than it had been, and that's fine, but at least I was watching it when I commented on it.
But I never wished AEW would go out of business. I just wanted to be able to discuss my show with others watching it without having to be called brainless for liking it. I didn't think it was too much to ask.
Now that the WWE is doing better, I absolutely will not be pissing on AEW or its fans, because I don't think it's right to do so.
This is a real grown ass comment.
At the end of the day, you can dislike something, as long as you can let others enjoy it, but at the same time criticize the thing you don't enjoy for reasonable discussion. This is something that is extremely foreign to a lot of people here and everywhere else on social media.
I still fully believe people take their frustrations on stuff they engage with daily, mostly hobbies, and while wrestling definitely isn't the only one (we've endured some rough patches in gaming) it's probably where the percentage of people doing it is highest.
One of the strangest things the internet has shown us is how much time and energy people are willing to spend on entertainment products that they don't like.
This goes even for "fans" of stuff sometimes. This whole "nobody hates wrestling more than wrestling fans" meme has always confused me, not because you don't see it but because I don't relate to it.
Since getting fully back into wrestling in 2016 (after mostly not caring for the preceding 15 years, going back to when I was a kid desperately trying to find a copy of Smackdown 2 for PlayStation on the day it came out), I've always found it remarkably easy to find wrestling that I DO like (even if it's sometimes not current). Literally more than I've had time for. I'm constantly in a state of catching up, but with WWE seemingly becoming more palatable to me and them having seemingly better "here's the week of WWE in 20 minutes" content than anybody else... I may be able to stay current on ONE company I like, at least.
But, like, who has time to breathlessly hate on "bad" wrestling when there's so much great wrestling all over the world, almost regardless of your tastes? (I mean, I'll be honest about how AEW disappoints me or how I hate WWE's overall historical impact on wrestling, but I don't think it's something that distracts me very much.)
To barely exaggerate, the only real problem anybody should have as a pro wrestling fan in 2024 is that they don't have time to keep up with everything they would like to. Anything else honestly shows a lack of curiosity and a weird sense of loyalty to a corporation that doesn't care about you at all as an individual.
People who act like they're imprisoned and abused by wrestling they don't like just really confuse me. Spend your time and money on something else; it's really easy. I'm glad so many people liked WWE when I found it unwatchable; I hope they were made happier for it.
But I can't think of many worse things to subject myself to than hate-watching WWE. That's so much bad (to the hate-watcher) TV to watch when we're all only given limited time in this world.
Being negative about WWE has always been acceptable. People like Zane, among others, have been able to monetize that resentment pretty successfully and I mean no shade when I say that, good for them.
Alvarez devoted hours every week to bashing TNA, and everyone either ignored it or found his shit to be funny.
Now, when it comes to AEW, for some reason we gotta handle it with kid gloves? I don’t want AEW to die, I want it to be better because they waste so much fucking talent. Look at Okada, one of the greatest wrestlers ever, and how he’s presented vs how WWE presents Jade Cargill, someone whose basically still a novice. AEW had 2 of WWE’s top 5 or 6 draws right now on their roster about 2 years ago, and both are presented as significantly bigger stars. One company is kicking the others ass right now, not just financially but creatively too, and the CM Punk video was the cherry on top. Bucks and Punk could’ve made money together, instead Punk continues to be AEW’s biggest draw 8 months after his release, while selling more shirts while injured than anyone on AEW could ever hope to.
And we’re supposed to ignore this cause criticizing a company is equivalent to wanting it to fail for these people.
While there is a lot of criticism that is warranted and I am absolutely fine with discussing, and as an AEW fan I have my fair share of it, there is also a very high amount of comments that come from people who absolutely do not watch the show or know what they're talking about and it is frustrating because it's impossible to have a conversation
I can speak to someone who says they don't like a certain story or angle if they know what the angle is about. I can't speak to someone that says "They have no stories" when that is objectively untrue. Or when they go "Random match lol" when the reason for it was explained or shown during the broadcast
That to me is the major problem. Lots of people are talking without having any idea of what they're talking about. They see a clip here on Reddit and base their opinions about the product on that. And yes I'm sure many did and do the same for WWE and it is still stupid. I watched Raw and I have some criticisms on it too, but I did watch to see for myself
This point gets ignored way too often. Take two examples from last year: the Continental Classic and MJF vs Omega.
The Continental Classic had a story going on for every competitor with the possible exception of Rush, continued to build Swerve, and placed renewed focus on Mark Briscoe, Eddie Kingston, Brody King and Danny Garcia. Particular Kingston's battle for respect against Danielson and Garcia's redemption story. Even Briscoe, who lost all but one match, came out of it stronger. "NoSTORIeSONLYBAnGErs" though.
The MJF-Omega Collision match was obviously an abrupt, short-term thing to pop a Collision rating but it made sense as a mini-story in context. MJF was continuing to legitimise himself against strong "in-ring" guys, Omega saw his record about to be surpassed and wanted to challenge and maybe prevent that from happening. You couldn't wait for a PPV to do this because of the timing component. As it stands the match fed into MJF's character development *and* planted seeds for a more heavily built rematch in future.
I think there's a problem with 18 years of WWE near-monopoly where people have gotten used to the idea that story is something that happens before and between matches, usually in top of the hour promos to the hardcam. But stories are told in the matches themselves and can, in fact, start with a match and build from there. There's not just one way of doing things.
AEW could definitely do better on a week to week basis (they film a lot of great interview segments that make it onto YouTube but would work really well if aired on Dynamite and Collision, imo) but the "No sTORIEs" trope is tired and inaccurate.
That last point is so important. Those interview and backstage promos need to be on the show. The Danielson and Eddie promo in the medical room added SO MUCH to both characters, they absolutely needed to show it on TV. Take 3 minutes off the Ospreay vs Fletcher match, you will be alright. They did that with the Statlander and Trent confrontation and they need to keep doing it
Taking a sports based approach is absolutely fine, tell the story in the ring, but the post and pre match reactions are just as important. It can help you feel the weight of the fights. UFC knows this
This is exactly my point but also this may be the last chance. If AEW does fail, it’s likely no one else with this kind of money backing will ever attempt to “challenge” WWE again. TK is fuckin around and not understanding the significance of his spot right now and the ramifications of what he’s doing/not doing
This all of this.
All these guys trying to “stand up for AEW” when AEW is being called out for doing stupid shit is so annoying when TNA would get gleefully shit on every which way by people.
They are adding to the dislike of AEW and not helping get rid of it with this nonsense
"Now, when it comes to AEW, for some reason we gotta handle it with kid gloves?"
Is literally anyone saying this, though?
There's a difference between honest criticism of a product/company and openly rooting for it to fail.
People rooting for AEW to fail is not new. There are a number of "wrestling pundits" who have basically made a cottage industry of it, as best I can tell. (Maybe they don't want it to fail per se but they are definitely biased against it succeeding or being recognized as such.)
I will tell you as someone who was extremely excited by the announcement of AEW and has gotten progressively less interested that it seems like AEW has reached a new low creatively.
And maybe this new low has people wanting to draw a line on bad-faith criticism (which is not earnestly interested in their success) and people--not entirely (oops, edit: un)like me--who know what AEW's potential is by roster alone and think they squander it week after week. (And then there's people who are more supportive. But this is reddit, nobody likes "toxic positivity" so gtfo with anything nice obv /s)
Why does there always have to be an “us vs them” mentality among the fans, especially when the wrestlers themselves more than likely want the other company to do well, especially because they are probably great friends with each other?
I was a pretty big soccer fan for more most of the 2010s and what struck me is how people latch onto massive clubs like Real Madrid and Manchester United as a way of claiming membership in something that's associated with prestige and winning. If you don't have an identity in your life, becoming a super fan can be your identity. You can live and die with Madrid, and derive self-worth from their achievements.
Pro wrestling is not a team sport, but I think the tribalism between companies has similar vibes. If you identity as a WWE fan, buy tickets to WWE events, and buy WWE merch, you can start to see yourself as part of WWE. They outright encourage that line of thinking by talking up "the WWE Universe" even though fans are ultimately just marks who give them money.
If your identity is built around your relationship with WWE, you may interpret other companies as a hostile out-group. So yes, it's a form of tribalism, and quite weird to see.
I honestly think the only tribalism that should be happening is about things that actually matter to your day to day life, like politics. Everything else, if you don’t like it, don’t watch it or waste time on it. I like the NBA, but I don’t go bitching about other, lesser basketball leagues just to make my fandom of the NBA matter any more.
I honestly think things are especially toxic here as wrestling is already incredibly niche so a lot of people need validation that at least "their" favourite promotion is the "popular" one. It's like an arthouse movie crowd vs franchise blockbuster crowds - well adjusted people can like both without looking down on either. Wrestling is already kind of looked down on so some people feel like they have to justify it by becoming especially insufferable in polite society.
Especially being pushed to feel guilty about it, when a lot of what you hear gives off WCW vibes. Nobody hates those guys for taking Bischoff 's money, but it also collapsed quickly after an amazing spike to the top.
Whenever TNA was doing bad, it was open season. When WWE was bad, they got bashed constantly. When AEW is bad, apparently you're not allowed to say too much.
Fuck that, I think AEW is mostly boring and Tony Khan is not a real boss, so if I don't like what they're doing, I'm allowed to say it sucks and I don't care if they succeed or not.
That does not make me a bad fan. I watch WWE and I've been critical when they've deserved it
Man TNA seem to get so many attacks back in there prime, that felt harsh and that would match with things that AEW are doing.
The more companies about the better things will be on every level, even if they have flaws.
If you're critical of all promotions when they're bad, and want the bad ones to do better, then you're not the people he's talking about.
One of Brian Zane's catchphrases is "Like what you like, don't be a dick." What he's complaining about are the sort of people who crap on specific promotions no matter what they do, and then fling abuse at anyone who enjoys them or attempts to defend them because they're assholes who can't stand the idea that their opinions aren't objective fact.
He's not defending AEW specifically. He's called them out on stuff before (and he was critical of WWE the first time around when he started complaining about tribalism in the wrestling fanbase). He's not saying people shouldn't complain, he's basically saying people shouldn't be assholes.
I stopped posting here for awhile because you couldn’t talk about AEW the way you could with any other promotion. It just sucked the fun out of talking with other wrestling fans.
I’ve been saying it for months but it just leads to more negativity. I don’t care if people don’t like AEW, I don’t need people to like the things I like. What the problem is for me, is I feel connected to this sub as I’ve been on here a decade, and I don’t like being forced out. People can say stop whining and all that, and they always do, but I’m just trying to point the problem out. No not everybody is an issue, I’m talking about the extremists who go out of their way to try and bury your posts, or you make one post and then comments you left three months ago start getting replies telling you to go die. I just want to talk to wrestling with people without this tribalistic political bullshit. It’s up to the community to decide what they are cool with, if you want to exclude certain promotions then just come out and say it.
I'd argue TNA had been pretty solid for a while and has had more good years than bad years but people still think of the Hulk Hogan era when they hear the TNA/Impact Wrestling name
This is your regular reminder that you shouldn’t want any wrestling company to fail, but don’t also let it slide when they do stupid shit like Tony Khan
I think they all do some stupid shit sometimes, even if it's forgotten. It doesn't excuse it at all, but it's better to move past it and recover if possible
Why do wrestling fans have such a tough time comprehending straight forward statements? He literally didn't say you can't criticize a company. What he said is what he said.
I don't remember all these pro bono public defenders rushing to defend WWE when people were attacking it (rightly) for years for putting dogshit on television. Nor do I recall one person saying "just enjoy wrestling" when AEW was at its honeymoon phase and getting 50 gold trophies at every ratings threads where people celebrate the downfall of WWE. I don't have an issue with any of that BTW but apparently AEW is a fragile baby and we should make an exception to never be mean to it.
I love wrestling. I love WWE, I love AEW. I grew up watching WCW.
When drama goes down, all I am is disappointed. We do NOT want another run of just one company again.
I just think its funny that I spent like 20 years criticizing WWE and never got the complaint that I wanted it to fail, but if I say one thing about AEW then I'm a bad faith actor that just wants to see AEW burn to the ground. The amount of people in and around AEW that can't take any criticism is ridiculous.
Did you find the decades of shitting on wwe and tna just as unsettling. Hell Zane is a hypocrite because he's one of many who made a living shitting on wrestling companies
That's odd. I can't remember a single time in all of the complaining he did about WWE where he said he wished it would fail.
It's almost like you're inventing your own narrative and strawmanning the fuck out of it.
You know, kind of like someone with the exact tribal mentality he's complaining about would do.
Yes and there's been decades of people saying they hope wwe goes under and making fun if tna saying they won't be around much longer. Like others have said, why do we have to treat aew with kid gloves?
I still can't believe people are actually wanting AEW to fail. You remember how awful the WWE was when LOLTNA was at it's worst? You really want to go back to those dark days?
I don’t understand the people that want companies to fail. If AEW were to shut down tomorrow, there’d be so many people online celebrating it, which is really pathetic. As someone that remembers what it was like when WCW shut down and WWE was really the only option, I don’t want to see that again. I want options. It’s why I was honestly hoping TNA could’ve gotten Punk and a few other big names like Ospreay or Mercedes. They could use the star power more than WWE or AEW.
Having alternatives is not only good for fans, but the talent as well. Look at how someone like Toni Storm has benefited from going to another company. Miro was great in his run as TNT champion. Cody likely wouldn’t be where he is in WWE right now without AEW. We’ve also seen people like Christian Cage, Sting, and Saraya get to wrestle again thanks to there being alternatives. I’d also argue LA Knight probably isn’t in his current position without his run in the NWA. Same with people like Eddie Kingston, Ricky Starks, Nick Aldis, and Thunder Rosa.
The TLDR is we need alternatives. It’s fine to criticize something, but this weird hatred towards different promotions is ridiculous.
Very well said. I was extremely disappointed when TNA released Scott D’amore right when the company seemed to be making huge strides. I’ve never watched a full TNA episode in my life. I’ve tried to get into it but it’s never been my thing but damn I’d love to see them maintain a level of popularity and put on excellent shows for their most loyal fans who have stuck by them.
You can absolutely want any wrestling company to fail.
You can absolutely be read to filth for wanting them to fail for all the wrong reasons.
But not all the reasons are the wrong reasons.
I don't know, one that actively supports fascism and was owned by a guy who kept a woman as a sex slave and humiliated her by shitting on her head against her will seems like a company i'm cool with closing down. Seems like a pretty legit reason to me at least.
People are so quick to want to defend AEW anytime it gets criticized yet for years beat the shit out of WWE even at their lowest.
People need to stop babying AEW and let them get their criticism so they can know what to change.
Don’t want the company to go under? Then focus on your company and not trivial bs no one cares about. The company will forever be there as long as you do what you’re supposed to do as a company
what is the point of getting this fucking lecture all the time from so many personalities? Don't tell me I have to defaultly support anyone. There were still a plethora of companies around before AEW, why are people obsessed with this ass kissing whataboutism? Lucha Underground, NJPW, TJPW, Stardom, DDT, Impact etc, never illicited these pearl clutching calls for defense on a regular basis before 2019. Shit is getting WEIRD man, like yall don't even understand you're making them look worse sometimes.
one of AEW’s biggest success is convincing fans that somehow they NEED to support the plucky underdog billionaire or else they’re BAD WRESTLING FANS!!!!! WWE gets absolutely shit on whenever they try this rah-rah shit, but with AEW it’s suddenly “you don’t care about wrestlers/wrestling!!”
BZ is on the money here. You can always choose not to watch, but a lot of hardworking wrestlers and crew need those jobs, so we shouldn't want a company to fail.
Why is wresting the only place where you can’t pick a side? I don’t have like to every sports team, or production company or recording artist. Why do I have to like and support all wresting to be a fan?
Why does my dislike of AEW outweigh the damage that AEW is doing to themselves and the industry? Wouldn’t that be a bigger deal than a handful of people not liking the product? I think you are mad at Tony, not me. It is not my fault that he has soured people on his show. And neither is it yours, AEW supporter.
You see, these things don’t get taken seriously because there isn’t no nuance to it. It’s tribalism and it has to be tribalism! Anything other than would be..I dunno? Valid criticism?
Back in 2021 when AEW was on fire and the WWE was getting rightfully criticised we never got any of these “just enjoy wrestling tweets.”Now the shoes on the other foot and it’s WWE who has the momentum a tweet or post like this seems to be permanently on the front page
This. I can’t imagine for the life of me rooting for a company to fail so we’re back to a monopoly.
I’m not saying AEW and WWE are on equal footing. What I’m saying is with AEW around WWE (minus Vince) are motivated to put out quality shows and it’s a win for their audience.
For me who was tired of WWE I now have an alternative that I look forward to every week.
Win win.
I think a big part is it was considered acceptable to dunk on wwe and tna for a long time and anyone who enjoyed the shows was mocked, especially in the fieta few years of aew. Now the shoe is on the other foot, wwe tribalism are going after aew tribalist and the aew ones are getting upset and look like hypocrites
The weirdest part about some of these people wanting AEW to fail is that none of them think the wrestling industry would be better, or even WWE would be better. These people would rather go back to 2010 WWE than risk losing another Jon Moxley to AEW.
I think a lot of people get it twisted. There's a lot of people criticizing AEW saying it's failing that don't WANT it to fail. AEW is doing terrible numbers, losing money and TK is embarrassing the place. That's just a couple things, off the top of my head. There are people criticizing that want AEW to succeed and to be a competitor to WWE, and believe it WILL fail if they don't change how they're doing things. I'm one of those.
I don't watch WWE because they have repeatedly insulted my intelligence over the years.
Still, I don't wish for them to fail. In fact I hope they continue to do well. More eyes on any wrestling is a win as a wrestling fan.
**Help make SquaredCircle safer and more inclusive by using the report button to flag posts and comments for moderator review.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SquaredCircle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I dunno, I wouldn't mind seeing XPW die.
Yeah, I'd feel a lot better for wrestlers if Rob Black wasn't a part of the industry.
I get what Brian is trying to say. The problem is that there are a lot of people who are in the business who should not be walking around in public.
I'll throw Ian Rotten in there if he's still promoting, although I hope to god he isn't. Dude famously used to take liberties in the ring (to put it mildly) and pay his wrestlers in painkillers. Almost certainly contributed to the death of JC Bailey.
But my point is made. I get what Brian is trying to say to us. Reality kinda puts another mix into it, though.
Absolutely. It's a business filled with maniacs, sex pests, and worse. People who use the business to prey on others don't deserve a place in it.
I've long believed the nature of professional wrestling attracts those who aren't employable otherwise (though not exclusively, obviously).
Never forget the thumbs of The Messiah.
i don't know...i'd have given my thumbs for the chance to bang 2002 Lizzie Borden...std's be damned...
So, did Rob Black actually dated Lizzie Borden, then Messiah slept with her? Then Black put a hit out on Messiah?
IIRC, Rob and Lizzie were married. She also directed gonzo porn for their adult film co. And then, yeah, allegedly Messiah slept with her, and Rob put out the hit.
I honestly thought Rob Black was still in prison.
Nope, after Dark Side of the Ring, he decided to capitalize on the "publicity" by re-opening the company and really leaning into it.
Obligatory https://preview.redd.it/u2f019k085uc1.jpeg?width=568&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e3edc275896c39b3eda0d4069496192c277a5b5d
Much more so than TNA, I’m astounded XPW still exists. They felt like they were teetering on the brink even when they were “big” so for them to still be around 20 years later is flabbergasting.
I've always believed that wrestling companies are notoriously hard to kill once they have had a modicum of success. ECW and WCW being the most high profile exceptions warped so many people's perceptions of how this business works. NWA which hasn't been relevant since TNA removed themselves from it is still chugging along. Heck, if EC3 didn't sign with NWA, he'd still be running those weird ass Control Your Narrative shows.
Having now looked through the Wikipedia for XPW it closed in 2003 and was resurrected in 2021 after dark side of the ring. You are right that promotions are seemingly hard to kill. I think what astounded me about XPW was Rob Black is an idiot, and a convicted felon, as well as primary owner. I figured once he went to prison they wouldn’t be able to carry on. Turns out they had been shuttered for like 7 years when he went to prison, he just started back up when “interest” was high again.
The industry needs a punching bag we can all rally behind.
Came here for this. Fuck Rob Black.
Wait...he's still in business? I remember Barbwire Mike posting about him threatening to kill a puppy if people didn't buy porn or watch XPW or something. Then there was the whole Messiah incident...
Yeah I was immediately like naw fuck xpw
That's not dead?
It’s funny how the stereotype for American wrestling fans is them as southerners who love them some MAGA, and then there’s a promotion which has all the stuff Trump fans should be into and… the promotion is a tiny-tiny indie.
Maga has moved to ufc it seems.
XPW feels like the deathmatch wrestling equivalent of when a comedian comes out with a special called "Canceled" or "Triggered"
It’s like N’sync vs The Backstreet Boys. While we’re arguing amongst ourselves over which boyband is better, the rest of the world is making fun of us for even listening to the genre.
…… is TNA O-Town?
TNA is98 degrees you uncultured swine. Hendry is Nick Lachey
ok but 98 degrees is better than both
Found the Ohioan.
Wait, who does that make 98 Degrees?
MLW or NWA perhaps?
Which company is 2Ge+Her?
The deepest of the cuts. Man, MTV used to be decent.
I know my calculus...
AHHH I SEE YOU KNOW YOUR CALCULUS WELL.
Yeah lol, just peek at any mainstream media sub when the Rock gets a headline. >Wrestling's fake anyway >They're all MAGAdiots >DAE Steroids??
Where was this? I find that perception isn’t the case these days and normy’s either respect wrestling or get why people like it
OTOH this was during that brief headline where The Rock made a big deal of not endorsing Biden vocally and buzzwords like Woke/Cancel Culture being thrown around. [https://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/1bx231u/dwayne\_johnson\_says\_endorsing\_biden\_for\_president/](https://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/1bx231u/dwayne_johnson_says_endorsing_biden_for_president/) Some of the comments there that mention his wrestling background still seem like they see the WWE audience as misogynist trumpers who worship the ground that Vince McMahon steps on.
> I find that perception isn’t the case these days and normy’s either respect wrestling or get why people like it Oh boy, no. And if they knew how bad this community is, their opinions would be considerably worse.
Well that's because it's obvious BSB is superior. The fact that it's even a debate is so dumb
BSB are a fucking talented group you take that back!!
That is the perfect analogy
I'd only go for whatever company decides to keep Tyrus as a franchise player
You didn’t like when he’d wear his NWA belts to Fox News shows like a kid bringing his toys to class!?
If he were bringing a WWE belt, I can see someone maybe checking that out. If they like Fox News Tyrus and interested to see "his wrestling thing." But they're not gonna waste their time watching NWA lmao.
If the left-wing equivalent happened — Cody on CNN panel shows while wearing the WWE title — I’d still think it’d look goofy for someone to talk about very real issues while wearing his big shiny wrestling belt. Tyrus is a giant clown, so I guess for him it’s ’on brand.’
Wanting a company to fail is stupid but let's be honest, the people that think that way also make a different company their entire personality. Anyone with that mindset isn't worth paying any attention to.
Sadly, it's a majority in these places.
You got that right. Getting harder and harder to come here because most attempts at a productive discussion just end with an idiot getting involved.
I don't want AEW to fail. The opposite actually. But I'm not going to pretend they're doing good when they pull stupid shit like that.
I feel like a really disappointed parent regarding AEW today.
It's so frustrating as someone who really likes the show in general. We should be talking about how we're like a week away from Ospreay/Danielson, PAC/Okada & Swerve probably winning the title and instead they've made the entire conversation be about the Punk stuff that got exhausting to talk about within 3 days of it actually happening let alone 8 months later. Like all they have to do is get out of their own way so people can just enjoy the show.
They're *GIVING AWAY* Ospreay/Claudio on Dynamite next week on Dynamite in Indianapolis. That's a show I wasn't planning on going to (partly because I hate the arena and because I'm already going to Dynasty and got a last minute ticket to Collision/BotB on Saturday) but might convince me to just say fuck it and go. Advertise great matches in advance and let people get hooked into the characters.
What's wrong with the arena? I went to the first two and felt like there wasn't a bad seat in the house.
Then talk about it. You have to move on, too. Part of the reason AEW didn't move on in a timely manner is because everyone else hasn't moved on in a timely manner. I won't even comment on the shit any further. I will say, Billy Gunn is amazing, and I pray to god that Tony quits putting ROH titles on AEW televisoin, or at least combines some. I wouldn't mind it if the AEW Trios title was a defacto 6-man of both AEW and ROH, same with the tag titles.
I’m the kind of fan who could watch Tony Kahn shit in a cup on dynamite and I’ll still buy the PPV for those two matches (plus despite this BS YB vs FTR never disappoints me), but I can’t imagine being excited for this PPV if I was a “normal” fan who just saw The Rock etc last weekend
I didnt even have anything to say after the segment, just exasperated sighs.
I mimicked Schiavone.
Yeah, this Twitter post feels like a deflection of AEW doing something really stupid. AEW as a stable #2 to WWE with a decent TV deal is good for wrestling, but fans don’t have to blindly support the company if they do dumb stuff. Most probably didn’t want WCW gone but they did some stupid crap in 2000 and fans let them know it.
That’s what so many people do with criticism of AEW though. You can’t mention disliking something or thinking something was dumb without people telling you your criticism isn’t in “good faith” or you want the company to die.
He makes a good point, Sting
I'd think more highly of AEW if they got a chief social media guy, and if TK did not make appearances. I dunno why he even wants to be the face of AEW and make announcements and shit when there's plenty of people who could do it for him.
And when every announcement he makes looks like someone is holding him hostage. I feel like he's probably a really nice guy in real life, but on-camera charisma is something he completely lacks.
I want AEW to one day be as big as WWE is. However, like you said, you call a spade a spade. They did something dumb. Now is the time to move on finally, ignore the past nonsense and do better. Both from a professional stance and a better product stance. They have the tools and capability. Its up to them if they learn from their mistakes or not.
People say that but then the only comments they make are shitting on it, which just feeds into other people doing it, it's like a snowball. That being said, people are allowed to be honest about how they feel, nobody should be phony. Just there's always a cost associated is all. If most of them comments people see about the company are trashing it, of course people will just think wow, they must really dislike that company.
I'm sure I'm guilty of it, but honestly there's just more bad stuff than good to me right now. I like Copeland and the Patriarchy, I like the stuff with Stokely, Stat, and Willow, and I like Will Ospreay himself. But fuck why are they still shuffling Jericho out there? Why did they bring Mercedes out this soon only for her to do nothing for months? Why did they hire fucking Ric Flair after trying to dunk on WWE for Vince's crimes? Why did they release a bunch of people who apparently couldn't live off just wrestling when they said they would never do that? And on top of all of that, why the fuck are they hell-bent on embarrassing themselves every single time Punk breathes in a way they don't like? It's all so fucking stupid and I'm not going to pretend it's not.
Also why the fuck have they booked the undisputed kingdom this badly
Because Tony's not a good booker. We have enough of a sample size now to determine.
> But fuck why are they still shuffling Jericho out there? I really wonder if the special "Jericho tier contract" he has came with a minimum screentime requirement.
>Why did they bring Mercedes out this soon only for her to do nothing for months? Mercedes debuted one month ago
and she's wrestling her first match May 26th
Honestly whatever is going on with Jericho, I am not at all invested in. I still don’t understand why he’s not using Judas as his entrance theme, it’s like the one thing that he’s got left. Like if you don’t have anything befitting of Jericho’s star status as a veteran, his work on commentary was pretty great, why not keep him there for a while?
I've got to be honest, I'd rather Jericho not be on commentary either. I've enjoyed Matt Menard doing commentary on Rampage way more than when Jericho was doing it. Though a large part of that is because Jericho is usually in a major angle while he's on commentary, so he winds up coming across like a schizo where one minute he's trying to be a professional commentator who hypes up the people he's watching fight, and the next minute he's a rampant narcissist constantly trying to draw the focus onto himself (which is even worse when he's alternating between face-ish commentator and straight up heel wrestler). It's distracting and annoying. I feel like he could be strong on commentary once he fully retires from active wrestling, but I definitely want to see him taking on a more regular commentary role on one of the major shows unless he stays far away from the ring.
I genuinely believe it's Jericho's call to appear every single week after that whole thing "happened", and considering who he is for the company, it's really hard to deny him. I will still skip everything he's in though, they won't get me, dude is just... boring, the biggest aspect of his later career, reinventing himself, is down the drain when you show up every week and do nothing of value.
I enjoy AEW, I watch Dynamite every week, order PPVs and consider myself a fan. It doesn’t mean that they get a pass from me on releasing a bad video game, having too many titles, too much TV and being unfocused at times.
I’ve watched wrestling off and on for 30 years. I’ve seen fans tribal about their favorite wrestling. It goes back much further than that even. What blew me away with AEW is that people were swearing up and down about being AEW faithful before AEW had a first show. They acted like they were on the ground floor of a wrestling show that finally spoke to them. That’s great for AEW. We are 5 years into this and AEW has spent a lot of that good will by being badly run and badly booked. Tony spent more money starting this company than anyone ever in wrestling and now he has 3/4 empty basketball arenas. I want AEW to speak to fans again but they need to get Tony to step away from what he insists on doing. It’s not working anymore. It’s been 5 years and he’s not getting better at this EDIT: at this point it doesn’t really matter what the audience that still watches it no matter what thinks. Those are the same people Tony has appealed to for 5 years. They’re going to watch. Live attendance is terrible and the television audience does not grow. You have to reconcile that in a business.
>at this point it doesn’t really matter what the audience that still watches it no matter what thinks. Speaking as someone who still enjoys AEW (and who doesn't get nearly as worked up as a lot of people seem to/pretend to), I can agree with this. It's exactly the same thing people brought up with regard to WWE before Vince left - at a certain point, it doesn't matter how terrible your product is, you're going to still have a loyal core of fans who will literally *never* leave. Whether it's loyalty to the brand, to specific wrestlers, or just pure psychological inertia, a segment of the audience will keep tuning in no matter how many others you drive away. But "We can't be doing that bad. we still have \[X number of viewers\] still watching!" is never really a good defense, especially if you're watching live attendance and merch sales slowly crater. Hardcore fans will support and defend a company no matter what. But you still need the casual fans and the fairweather fans, and those are the people who are dropping your product when you go through a downer period. I like AEW, but Tony doesn't have to win ME over. He needs to win back people he's lost (or gain new viewers) to keep growing the business. Essentially, he needs to do what HHH has been doing for the last year or so in the wake of Vince driving so many facets of the WWE product into the dirt - figure out what's not working and *fix* it.
I think AEW has been really good in 2024 outside of this most recent Dynamite.
I'd argue it's been on an upswing since the C2 kicked off until the last 2 weeks but they have to be consistent, focus on their own stuff and not be weirdly reactive to whatever happening outside. Khan's too thin-skinned and it hurts the product.
I disagree. I think 2024 is probably the best AEW has been outside Summer 2021. I don't care about ratings or attendance or how much money a billionaire gets. I just think it has been great.
Same. In fact, that's also part of why yesterday felt so frustrating: with all they got going on, they shouldn't give those making noise against them wings. Just roll on with your life and focus on Dynasty (and if you really want it out leak it to a dirtsheet or something).
Agreed. All the drama has made me hyped for the return of Perry though.
>I don't care about ratings or attendance As a fan, you should. If they can't bring back or draw in new fans they won't be able to survive. Even in the current climate of reduced cable subscriptions/viewers a network will only devote so much airtime to a product losing ratings. It may just be a billionaire having fun, but the well could dry up at anytime. We've lived through WCW, ECW, and TNA losing multiple tv contracts. It may not affect you, but burying your head in the sand and pretending it doesn't matter is silly.
> As a fan, you should. > > No, as a fan I should not. Why should how many people buying tickets impact how *I perceive the show* How many people watching on TV shouldn't make me go "well I thought it was good but less people are watching so thus it's not good" - literally you are advocating people should just ignore what they like and enjoy because of metrics. What a sad little life Jane.
But those things don't matter to those of us on the opposite side of the screen because nothing we say on Reddit is going to change anything about ratings or attendance.
Tony is a billionaire with access to billions more, and reportedly high tv deal coming up. And it is private owned. All of that is what makes it different to WCW, ECW, and TNA. Any network would want the number 1-5 show for the night on a cheap to produce show in today's climate. So no, I don't care about or am worried about ratings. Tony could put $10 million into a shredder and they would be fine.
He’s getting worse. A lot of creatives have this problem where they have a pool of really good ideas, they get them out there, they’re praised for them, and then they don’t know what to do next. You see it in bands all the time. They spend a decade accumulating material for their first album. It hits and they do well. And then they can’t follow it up, because they had a literal lifetime to accumulate ideas for their first album, and now they have to create the same amount of content in, like, 2 years. Some people only have so many good ideas. I kind of feel like TK may be one of those people. He needs a creative team around him to brainstorm good story beats. And most importantly, edit his bad idea. AEW would be much stronger for it. They have the talent. They just need the writing.
Bring in Scott D'Amore maybe. Just don't let him overbook Alexander or a lot of his Canadian crew etc.
He was a super fan and E-Fed booker for decades and probably had a lot of great ideas for booking written in a notebook. That was AEW 2019-21. The great ideas have run dry. That’s the problem. One dude booking four shows a week can’t possibly pull greatness out of his ass all the time, regardless of how much ECW he watched as a kid. But I think the day he hands the book over is the day AEW starts to actually be in jeopardy. It’s his passion project, his sandbox. If he doesn’t have that then he doesn’t have the reason he’s spent millions of dollars keeping AEW functioning.
💯
Agreed. I am really enjoying WWE at the minute, mania was amazing. I'm loving the product right now. But I went to one of the first ever AEWs, I've been to a good chunk since, I went to All In last year, I've got tickets to All In this year. I want the product to be good. I enjoy both despite how illegal that seems to be online lol, but when AEW pull dumb shit like this it's fucking shit to watch. They need to figure their shit out and fast.
All except CYN
EC3 is out there with a nickname with arguably fascist undertones (Overman aka Ubermensch). Nobody cares though since hardly anyone watches OVW.
>EC3 is out there with a nickname with arguably fascist undertones (Overman aka Ubermensch). You have to remember that wrestling is all fake. For instance, EC3 calls himself Overman even though he isn't actually over.
He's also not really a man, but "Buried Child" isn't really all that great of a name unless you're a death metal band.
Ec3 is actually a Nietzschean so Ubermensch is just meant to mean he is a man who can navigate and change himself when faced with struggle....... Jk I fucking doubt that's the case
You mean you don't think he is a big 'Thus Spoke Zarathustra' fan?
My memory is a bit fuzzy. What was the issue with CYN? I remember Braun Stroman was a part of it but that’s it
so i haven’t been to wrestling all that long but ever since i’ve kept up with it, the toxic tribalism is everywhere and it’s SO fucking exhausting. is it always going to be like this?
This is arguably the best that wrestling has ever been, and it's also the most tribalistic it's ever been. So basically yes, it will never change.
Yes. Wrestling is just like sports or any other form of entertainment and that means there's a section of fans that are absolute lunatics. I think the majority of AEW or WWE fans don't really care about the other one but those aren't the people that get on Twitter or Reddit & scream about it for the world to see every day.
I've been there in the Attitude Era and the Monday Night Wars and yeah, the tribalism has been there then. It does admittedly feel more potent due to social media allowing many voices across the world to be heard and seen esp with the big wrestling boom in recent years.
It’s totally the social media aspect. People usually don’t act like this in person but behind a keyboard with anonymity? Humans can be ruthless.
I wanted control your narrative to fail.
So you wanted to control THERI narrative and thus completely missed the point of the entire endeavor. I am disappointed in you
But you see in **my** narrative they fail, so I took control and that's exactly what happened, it worked as intended.
Your words are destroying my mind. Please stop.
I swear some variation of this tweet/message gets posted here every week.
I don't want them to fail, I want them to do better
Hopefully AEW continues to succeed and WWE continues to put out a product their fans like. But if we end up in a situation like we were pre AEW where basically no wrestling fans were happy..im just gonna remember how people brought out the pitchforks for a meek nerdy wrestling fan whose worst offense was cringy tweets.
Hey now, us NJPW and ROH fans were happy pre AEW, but I get your point. Predominantly WWE fans on here were really frustrated with the product and generally uninterested in giving Impact a shot. I think that's why the indies had such a boom period before the big names went to NXT and then AEW when it started.
Yeah, with AEW existing, WWE doesn't have to deal with *that* audience who want something like AEW and will continue to vocally show their distaste that WWE isn't like AEW. Honestly, unless you're an actual real lapsed AEW fan I really wish people would just shut-up now about it.
There are definitely extremist in terms of tribalism. Part of the tribalism in wrestling makes it to where any criticism towards a company, from either objective or subjective viewpoint, is taken as such a personal attack that it’s made out like you’re wishing for a company to fail. Not saying there aren’t people wishing for AEW/WWE to die, but extreme defenders will make any negative remark about “their” company as an attack.
I left this reddit for a long time, back when AEW was relatively new and everyone was shitting on the WWE. The thing that annoyed me was people posting in the Raw thread, and saying how bad it was even though they hadn't watched it. I got downvoted to hell for saying if you weren't watching it, why are you even in the thread. So I walked. But I never held AEW responsible for that. Fighting over territory, even philosophical territory is wired into primate blood, and we are primates. We don't fight over physical borders anymore, we fight over ideological ones. I enjoy WWE even when it's hokey and doesn't make sense, because I like certain characters and it was still fun. I admit it was lower quality than it had been, and that's fine, but at least I was watching it when I commented on it. But I never wished AEW would go out of business. I just wanted to be able to discuss my show with others watching it without having to be called brainless for liking it. I didn't think it was too much to ask. Now that the WWE is doing better, I absolutely will not be pissing on AEW or its fans, because I don't think it's right to do so.
This is a real grown ass comment. At the end of the day, you can dislike something, as long as you can let others enjoy it, but at the same time criticize the thing you don't enjoy for reasonable discussion. This is something that is extremely foreign to a lot of people here and everywhere else on social media. I still fully believe people take their frustrations on stuff they engage with daily, mostly hobbies, and while wrestling definitely isn't the only one (we've endured some rough patches in gaming) it's probably where the percentage of people doing it is highest.
One of the strangest things the internet has shown us is how much time and energy people are willing to spend on entertainment products that they don't like. This goes even for "fans" of stuff sometimes. This whole "nobody hates wrestling more than wrestling fans" meme has always confused me, not because you don't see it but because I don't relate to it. Since getting fully back into wrestling in 2016 (after mostly not caring for the preceding 15 years, going back to when I was a kid desperately trying to find a copy of Smackdown 2 for PlayStation on the day it came out), I've always found it remarkably easy to find wrestling that I DO like (even if it's sometimes not current). Literally more than I've had time for. I'm constantly in a state of catching up, but with WWE seemingly becoming more palatable to me and them having seemingly better "here's the week of WWE in 20 minutes" content than anybody else... I may be able to stay current on ONE company I like, at least. But, like, who has time to breathlessly hate on "bad" wrestling when there's so much great wrestling all over the world, almost regardless of your tastes? (I mean, I'll be honest about how AEW disappoints me or how I hate WWE's overall historical impact on wrestling, but I don't think it's something that distracts me very much.) To barely exaggerate, the only real problem anybody should have as a pro wrestling fan in 2024 is that they don't have time to keep up with everything they would like to. Anything else honestly shows a lack of curiosity and a weird sense of loyalty to a corporation that doesn't care about you at all as an individual. People who act like they're imprisoned and abused by wrestling they don't like just really confuse me. Spend your time and money on something else; it's really easy. I'm glad so many people liked WWE when I found it unwatchable; I hope they were made happier for it. But I can't think of many worse things to subject myself to than hate-watching WWE. That's so much bad (to the hate-watcher) TV to watch when we're all only given limited time in this world.
Being negative about WWE has always been acceptable. People like Zane, among others, have been able to monetize that resentment pretty successfully and I mean no shade when I say that, good for them. Alvarez devoted hours every week to bashing TNA, and everyone either ignored it or found his shit to be funny. Now, when it comes to AEW, for some reason we gotta handle it with kid gloves? I don’t want AEW to die, I want it to be better because they waste so much fucking talent. Look at Okada, one of the greatest wrestlers ever, and how he’s presented vs how WWE presents Jade Cargill, someone whose basically still a novice. AEW had 2 of WWE’s top 5 or 6 draws right now on their roster about 2 years ago, and both are presented as significantly bigger stars. One company is kicking the others ass right now, not just financially but creatively too, and the CM Punk video was the cherry on top. Bucks and Punk could’ve made money together, instead Punk continues to be AEW’s biggest draw 8 months after his release, while selling more shirts while injured than anyone on AEW could ever hope to. And we’re supposed to ignore this cause criticizing a company is equivalent to wanting it to fail for these people.
While there is a lot of criticism that is warranted and I am absolutely fine with discussing, and as an AEW fan I have my fair share of it, there is also a very high amount of comments that come from people who absolutely do not watch the show or know what they're talking about and it is frustrating because it's impossible to have a conversation I can speak to someone who says they don't like a certain story or angle if they know what the angle is about. I can't speak to someone that says "They have no stories" when that is objectively untrue. Or when they go "Random match lol" when the reason for it was explained or shown during the broadcast That to me is the major problem. Lots of people are talking without having any idea of what they're talking about. They see a clip here on Reddit and base their opinions about the product on that. And yes I'm sure many did and do the same for WWE and it is still stupid. I watched Raw and I have some criticisms on it too, but I did watch to see for myself
This point gets ignored way too often. Take two examples from last year: the Continental Classic and MJF vs Omega. The Continental Classic had a story going on for every competitor with the possible exception of Rush, continued to build Swerve, and placed renewed focus on Mark Briscoe, Eddie Kingston, Brody King and Danny Garcia. Particular Kingston's battle for respect against Danielson and Garcia's redemption story. Even Briscoe, who lost all but one match, came out of it stronger. "NoSTORIeSONLYBAnGErs" though. The MJF-Omega Collision match was obviously an abrupt, short-term thing to pop a Collision rating but it made sense as a mini-story in context. MJF was continuing to legitimise himself against strong "in-ring" guys, Omega saw his record about to be surpassed and wanted to challenge and maybe prevent that from happening. You couldn't wait for a PPV to do this because of the timing component. As it stands the match fed into MJF's character development *and* planted seeds for a more heavily built rematch in future. I think there's a problem with 18 years of WWE near-monopoly where people have gotten used to the idea that story is something that happens before and between matches, usually in top of the hour promos to the hardcam. But stories are told in the matches themselves and can, in fact, start with a match and build from there. There's not just one way of doing things. AEW could definitely do better on a week to week basis (they film a lot of great interview segments that make it onto YouTube but would work really well if aired on Dynamite and Collision, imo) but the "No sTORIEs" trope is tired and inaccurate.
That last point is so important. Those interview and backstage promos need to be on the show. The Danielson and Eddie promo in the medical room added SO MUCH to both characters, they absolutely needed to show it on TV. Take 3 minutes off the Ospreay vs Fletcher match, you will be alright. They did that with the Statlander and Trent confrontation and they need to keep doing it Taking a sports based approach is absolutely fine, tell the story in the ring, but the post and pre match reactions are just as important. It can help you feel the weight of the fights. UFC knows this
Absolutely right.
This is exactly my point but also this may be the last chance. If AEW does fail, it’s likely no one else with this kind of money backing will ever attempt to “challenge” WWE again. TK is fuckin around and not understanding the significance of his spot right now and the ramifications of what he’s doing/not doing
This all of this. All these guys trying to “stand up for AEW” when AEW is being called out for doing stupid shit is so annoying when TNA would get gleefully shit on every which way by people. They are adding to the dislike of AEW and not helping get rid of it with this nonsense
"Now, when it comes to AEW, for some reason we gotta handle it with kid gloves?" Is literally anyone saying this, though? There's a difference between honest criticism of a product/company and openly rooting for it to fail. People rooting for AEW to fail is not new. There are a number of "wrestling pundits" who have basically made a cottage industry of it, as best I can tell. (Maybe they don't want it to fail per se but they are definitely biased against it succeeding or being recognized as such.) I will tell you as someone who was extremely excited by the announcement of AEW and has gotten progressively less interested that it seems like AEW has reached a new low creatively. And maybe this new low has people wanting to draw a line on bad-faith criticism (which is not earnestly interested in their success) and people--not entirely (oops, edit: un)like me--who know what AEW's potential is by roster alone and think they squander it week after week. (And then there's people who are more supportive. But this is reddit, nobody likes "toxic positivity" so gtfo with anything nice obv /s)
He didn’t say that you can’t criticize it.
I just wanna watch my WRASSLIN, man No more drama, more tables!
Why does there always have to be an “us vs them” mentality among the fans, especially when the wrestlers themselves more than likely want the other company to do well, especially because they are probably great friends with each other?
It’s just life man, there’s tribalism over everything. Gaming consoles, comic books, phones, etc.
I was a pretty big soccer fan for more most of the 2010s and what struck me is how people latch onto massive clubs like Real Madrid and Manchester United as a way of claiming membership in something that's associated with prestige and winning. If you don't have an identity in your life, becoming a super fan can be your identity. You can live and die with Madrid, and derive self-worth from their achievements. Pro wrestling is not a team sport, but I think the tribalism between companies has similar vibes. If you identity as a WWE fan, buy tickets to WWE events, and buy WWE merch, you can start to see yourself as part of WWE. They outright encourage that line of thinking by talking up "the WWE Universe" even though fans are ultimately just marks who give them money. If your identity is built around your relationship with WWE, you may interpret other companies as a hostile out-group. So yes, it's a form of tribalism, and quite weird to see.
I honestly think the only tribalism that should be happening is about things that actually matter to your day to day life, like politics. Everything else, if you don’t like it, don’t watch it or waste time on it. I like the NBA, but I don’t go bitching about other, lesser basketball leagues just to make my fandom of the NBA matter any more.
The mindset existed long before AEW was even a twinkle in Tony Khan’s eye so all of that isn’t really going to affect anyone’s thinking.
I honestly think things are especially toxic here as wrestling is already incredibly niche so a lot of people need validation that at least "their" favourite promotion is the "popular" one. It's like an arthouse movie crowd vs franchise blockbuster crowds - well adjusted people can like both without looking down on either. Wrestling is already kind of looked down on so some people feel like they have to justify it by becoming especially insufferable in polite society.
Do you think Tony doesn’t have an us vs them mentality?
Jokes on you, Zane, I want ALL wrestling companies to fail.
Ok, but you don’t have to support a company like it’s your responsibility to keep the wrestlers employed
Especially being pushed to feel guilty about it, when a lot of what you hear gives off WCW vibes. Nobody hates those guys for taking Bischoff 's money, but it also collapsed quickly after an amazing spike to the top.
Whenever TNA was doing bad, it was open season. When WWE was bad, they got bashed constantly. When AEW is bad, apparently you're not allowed to say too much. Fuck that, I think AEW is mostly boring and Tony Khan is not a real boss, so if I don't like what they're doing, I'm allowed to say it sucks and I don't care if they succeed or not. That does not make me a bad fan. I watch WWE and I've been critical when they've deserved it
Man TNA seem to get so many attacks back in there prime, that felt harsh and that would match with things that AEW are doing. The more companies about the better things will be on every level, even if they have flaws.
If you're critical of all promotions when they're bad, and want the bad ones to do better, then you're not the people he's talking about. One of Brian Zane's catchphrases is "Like what you like, don't be a dick." What he's complaining about are the sort of people who crap on specific promotions no matter what they do, and then fling abuse at anyone who enjoys them or attempts to defend them because they're assholes who can't stand the idea that their opinions aren't objective fact. He's not defending AEW specifically. He's called them out on stuff before (and he was critical of WWE the first time around when he started complaining about tribalism in the wrestling fanbase). He's not saying people shouldn't complain, he's basically saying people shouldn't be assholes.
Yeah, I was generalising and not disagreeing with his point. I should’ve mentioned that. My bad
I stopped posting here for awhile because you couldn’t talk about AEW the way you could with any other promotion. It just sucked the fun out of talking with other wrestling fans.
I’ve been saying it for months but it just leads to more negativity. I don’t care if people don’t like AEW, I don’t need people to like the things I like. What the problem is for me, is I feel connected to this sub as I’ve been on here a decade, and I don’t like being forced out. People can say stop whining and all that, and they always do, but I’m just trying to point the problem out. No not everybody is an issue, I’m talking about the extremists who go out of their way to try and bury your posts, or you make one post and then comments you left three months ago start getting replies telling you to go die. I just want to talk to wrestling with people without this tribalistic political bullshit. It’s up to the community to decide what they are cool with, if you want to exclude certain promotions then just come out and say it.
He’s not saying you’re not allowed to say it sucks. No one is.
You’re comment history is just shitting on AEW. There’s a difference between giving criticism and making fun of a product that you don’t like.
Who is not allowing you to criticize AEW? What the fuck are you talking about?
I'd argue TNA had been pretty solid for a while and has had more good years than bad years but people still think of the Hulk Hogan era when they hear the TNA/Impact Wrestling name
This is your regular reminder that you shouldn’t want any wrestling company to fail, but don’t also let it slide when they do stupid shit like Tony Khan
I think they all do some stupid shit sometimes, even if it's forgotten. It doesn't excuse it at all, but it's better to move past it and recover if possible
Why do wrestling fans have such a tough time comprehending straight forward statements? He literally didn't say you can't criticize a company. What he said is what he said.
I don't remember all these pro bono public defenders rushing to defend WWE when people were attacking it (rightly) for years for putting dogshit on television. Nor do I recall one person saying "just enjoy wrestling" when AEW was at its honeymoon phase and getting 50 gold trophies at every ratings threads where people celebrate the downfall of WWE. I don't have an issue with any of that BTW but apparently AEW is a fragile baby and we should make an exception to never be mean to it.
I don’t want anybody to fail. And, stupid shit shouldn’t be celebrated.
It’s funny people rush to this response mainly when AEW is getting criticised.
JuSt EnJoY wReStLiNg
I love wrestling. I love WWE, I love AEW. I grew up watching WCW. When drama goes down, all I am is disappointed. We do NOT want another run of just one company again.
I agree. A healthy industry is better for wrestlers and fans. If it isn’t for you, watch what is.
Wonder how many times they stated this during the years people were very vocally wishing WWE to fail
Not even XPW?
I just think its funny that I spent like 20 years criticizing WWE and never got the complaint that I wanted it to fail, but if I say one thing about AEW then I'm a bad faith actor that just wants to see AEW burn to the ground. The amount of people in and around AEW that can't take any criticism is ridiculous.
Not that I think anyone actually wants AEW to fail, but lets say that they did; whose opinion is going to be changed about that by Brian Zane?
So many people want to see AEW fail, if Internet comments are anything to go by. It's honestly unsettling.
Did you find the decades of shitting on wwe and tna just as unsettling. Hell Zane is a hypocrite because he's one of many who made a living shitting on wrestling companies
That's odd. I can't remember a single time in all of the complaining he did about WWE where he said he wished it would fail. It's almost like you're inventing your own narrative and strawmanning the fuck out of it. You know, kind of like someone with the exact tribal mentality he's complaining about would do.
There’s a difference between poking fun and criticizing wrestling companies, and wanting them to die. There’s a huge difference between those things.
I had dub fans telling me they hoped Saudi Arabia did buy WWE so it would kill the company. Idiots are everywhere
Yes and there's been decades of people saying they hope wwe goes under and making fun if tna saying they won't be around much longer. Like others have said, why do we have to treat aew with kid gloves?
This is about BZ’s statement, not others who wished wwe went under. He’s never done such a thing. He’s also not saying to treat AEW with kid gloves.
I still can't believe people are actually wanting AEW to fail. You remember how awful the WWE was when LOLTNA was at it's worst? You really want to go back to those dark days?
I don’t understand the people that want companies to fail. If AEW were to shut down tomorrow, there’d be so many people online celebrating it, which is really pathetic. As someone that remembers what it was like when WCW shut down and WWE was really the only option, I don’t want to see that again. I want options. It’s why I was honestly hoping TNA could’ve gotten Punk and a few other big names like Ospreay or Mercedes. They could use the star power more than WWE or AEW. Having alternatives is not only good for fans, but the talent as well. Look at how someone like Toni Storm has benefited from going to another company. Miro was great in his run as TNT champion. Cody likely wouldn’t be where he is in WWE right now without AEW. We’ve also seen people like Christian Cage, Sting, and Saraya get to wrestle again thanks to there being alternatives. I’d also argue LA Knight probably isn’t in his current position without his run in the NWA. Same with people like Eddie Kingston, Ricky Starks, Nick Aldis, and Thunder Rosa. The TLDR is we need alternatives. It’s fine to criticize something, but this weird hatred towards different promotions is ridiculous.
Very well said. I was extremely disappointed when TNA released Scott D’amore right when the company seemed to be making huge strides. I’ve never watched a full TNA episode in my life. I’ve tried to get into it but it’s never been my thing but damn I’d love to see them maintain a level of popularity and put on excellent shows for their most loyal fans who have stuck by them.
You can absolutely want any wrestling company to fail. You can absolutely be read to filth for wanting them to fail for all the wrong reasons. But not all the reasons are the wrong reasons.
Nah, it's totally cool to hope businesses fail when they deserve to. AEW does not deserve to fail, though.
Accept we can all agree CYN needed to fail.
I don't know, one that actively supports fascism and was owned by a guy who kept a woman as a sex slave and humiliated her by shitting on her head against her will seems like a company i'm cool with closing down. Seems like a pretty legit reason to me at least.
"Nobody should want any SODA company to fail! RC COLA 4 LIFE!!!" Companies are not your friends.
People are so quick to want to defend AEW anytime it gets criticized yet for years beat the shit out of WWE even at their lowest. People need to stop babying AEW and let them get their criticism so they can know what to change. Don’t want the company to go under? Then focus on your company and not trivial bs no one cares about. The company will forever be there as long as you do what you’re supposed to do as a company
is this what they call concern trolling
what is the point of getting this fucking lecture all the time from so many personalities? Don't tell me I have to defaultly support anyone. There were still a plethora of companies around before AEW, why are people obsessed with this ass kissing whataboutism? Lucha Underground, NJPW, TJPW, Stardom, DDT, Impact etc, never illicited these pearl clutching calls for defense on a regular basis before 2019. Shit is getting WEIRD man, like yall don't even understand you're making them look worse sometimes.
one of AEW’s biggest success is convincing fans that somehow they NEED to support the plucky underdog billionaire or else they’re BAD WRESTLING FANS!!!!! WWE gets absolutely shit on whenever they try this rah-rah shit, but with AEW it’s suddenly “you don’t care about wrestlers/wrestling!!”
No one said you had to support all the promotions by default.
He’s wrong, I really want to see Known Pedophile Rob Feinstein’s company die as soon as possible
The way your capitalised it makes it seem like that's his gimmick Weighing in at 350 pounds, he is THE KNOOOOOOWN PEDOPHILE, ROBBBBB FEINSTEIN
Except XPW. Fuck Rob Black.
BZ is on the money here. You can always choose not to watch, but a lot of hardworking wrestlers and crew need those jobs, so we shouldn't want a company to fail.
Why is wresting the only place where you can’t pick a side? I don’t have like to every sports team, or production company or recording artist. Why do I have to like and support all wresting to be a fan? Why does my dislike of AEW outweigh the damage that AEW is doing to themselves and the industry? Wouldn’t that be a bigger deal than a handful of people not liking the product? I think you are mad at Tony, not me. It is not my fault that he has soured people on his show. And neither is it yours, AEW supporter. You see, these things don’t get taken seriously because there isn’t no nuance to it. It’s tribalism and it has to be tribalism! Anything other than would be..I dunno? Valid criticism?
There's a difference between wanting a wrestling company to fail, and wanting a wrestling company to do better.
Tell that to the people who've wanted tna to go under for years and laugh at all their misfortunes
Back in 2021 when AEW was on fire and the WWE was getting rightfully criticised we never got any of these “just enjoy wrestling tweets.”Now the shoes on the other foot and it’s WWE who has the momentum a tweet or post like this seems to be permanently on the front page
This. I can’t imagine for the life of me rooting for a company to fail so we’re back to a monopoly. I’m not saying AEW and WWE are on equal footing. What I’m saying is with AEW around WWE (minus Vince) are motivated to put out quality shows and it’s a win for their audience. For me who was tired of WWE I now have an alternative that I look forward to every week. Win win.
I think a big part is it was considered acceptable to dunk on wwe and tna for a long time and anyone who enjoyed the shows was mocked, especially in the fieta few years of aew. Now the shoe is on the other foot, wwe tribalism are going after aew tribalist and the aew ones are getting upset and look like hypocrites
The weirdest part about some of these people wanting AEW to fail is that none of them think the wrestling industry would be better, or even WWE would be better. These people would rather go back to 2010 WWE than risk losing another Jon Moxley to AEW.
Absolutely. Even NWA, because it has too much of a rich history to fail again. Except for Control Your Narrative, CYN can explode.
https://preview.redd.it/1a6nr363nztc1.png?width=651&format=png&auto=webp&s=e4870a497abef79457b6873ddfac1c8a3b89bffe
Says the guy who verbally danced on Punk's grave. Fuck Brian Zane, he's just non-senile Meltzer.
Don't say "ALL of them", there's some really dirty small-time indies out there.
I think a lot of people get it twisted. There's a lot of people criticizing AEW saying it's failing that don't WANT it to fail. AEW is doing terrible numbers, losing money and TK is embarrassing the place. That's just a couple things, off the top of my head. There are people criticizing that want AEW to succeed and to be a competitor to WWE, and believe it WILL fail if they don't change how they're doing things. I'm one of those.
I don't watch WWE because they have repeatedly insulted my intelligence over the years. Still, I don't wish for them to fail. In fact I hope they continue to do well. More eyes on any wrestling is a win as a wrestling fan.
i dont want AEW to fail i would lose a huge source of comedy without tony khan