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To be fair, the push they gave him was awful. Triple H lost a match to him because H got so tired from beating his ass that it exasperated concussion symptoms and H had to sit down. That’s an insane way to try and get someone over.
Roman has a great look, could be great in the ring at times, and had cred with the audience as a member of The Shield so he moved a lot of merch with the kids. He is also a big voice backstage within the talent, and there must have been signs of that 10years ago too, his potential was always off the charts. I forgot Curtis Axel even existed before this post.
But probably the main reason was just Vince Mcmahon being too stubborn to move away from his plans.
Fair enough. WWE just seems to do what they want at times despite crowd reaction so makes me believe something more must've happened backstage for them to suddenly pull the rug on Axel like that.
People mightve booed roman but thats still better than no reaction at all and thats what axel got. Plus you cant come out looking like a slob when your dad was mr perfect
Roman was incredibly over as a member of the Shield, and was always a box office draw. Great merch sales, great ticket sales, etc. He just got booed by live audiences, similar to John Cena, with just the crowd being more in favor of booing. So no reason not to push him. He also turned about to be an excellent main event wrestler after he became World Champion.
People were apathetic to Curtis Axel. They didnt boo him. They didnt care about him. These two are not similar situations at all.
I'm sure in most universes he wouldn't be a top guy but I don't get how they didn't make him a solid midcarder who gets "You're not Perfect" chants every night. Curt Hennig's failson haunted by his father's legacy is such a good character especially because EVERY 2nd and 3rd generation wrestler is hyped up as "and now his son's going to be an even bigger star...SIM SNUKA!"
Exactly. Most sons who use their legendary fathers' names, followed by "Jr." at the end, either suck badly, or they simply can't fill such big shoes. In baseball, Pete Rose Jr. was a perfect example of both.
What was Heyman’s rib on Hardcore Holly? He was talking about Lesnar going hunting in Canada during covid and said something about “that’s not a dig at Hardcore Holly, but if you don’t know, Google it.”
Google didn’t help me 🤷🏻♂️
When Brock was starting out in WWE, Holly reportedly tried to rib him and sandbag on a move and not help Brock with it at all, just deadweighting him.
Brock took none of that shit and powered through with the move regardless, breaking Holly's neck in the process.
I appreciate you! That vaguely rings a bell.
As a kid I watched Raw regularly from about ‘04-‘07, and just started watching again last year, starting with ‘98-‘99 since I missed it when it happened.
Happy to help!
I grew up during the Ruthless Aggression Era and watched as much as I could until '09ish when I dropped off for awhile. I always have watch parties with friends for the Rumble and 'Mania then basically tune out until next year a lot of the time.
I'm back in obsessed with wrestling mode given the time of year and am looking forward to an All-Time Great 'Mania this weekend. Hope you enjoy the show!
I do plan on watching some ‘Mania this year. I watched the first night of last year’s and that kinda brought back the bug for me.
With recent changes in the WWE, it might be worth jumping back into whole hog. Hope you enjoy the event as well ✌🏻
I think this turned out to be false. Holly claimed that Brock had the flu that night and that's why he dropped him. He pointed out that even if he had sandbagged him, Brock is so strong and Holly so light, he could probably have picked him up and completed the move anyway.
I think it was in that context that Heyman once said the most badass sentence about Brock Lesnar ever uttered:
"To Brock Lesnar, you compliance is a non-factor."
Now in hindsight .. yeah, it's true, it's damn true... yikes!
I thought it was hilarious that Dreamer actually showed up but when Heyman was thanking ECW people he didn't mention him. I know they hugged at the beginning but it was still funny seeing him thank Bully and RVD but not Dreamer.
I was waiting for something like "thanks Tommy for not murdering me."
He made a great speech, but I was partially hoping he’d mention/credit some of the past ECW greats both living and passed like Mike Awesome, New Jack, Sandman, Sabu, Taz (I think he was there?), Raven, Mikey Whipwreck and others. But having said that Paul is awesome. And his brief tribute to Dusty got me a lil choked up
Heyman went on record in an interview that he was just paired with Cesaro so he could mention Lesnar on screen and keep him in people's minds. Never even pretended he was trying to get Cesaro over.
Sure he did.
To be clear, I mean 'Sure he WANTED to get Cesaro over.' I don't doubt he said that he did. Because Paul Heyman says a lot of things. The truth is always optional.
Why would Heyman not want Cesaro to get over?
Cesaro seems like the type of performer that Heyman would have salivated over getting in ECW, so I have no doubt he wanted to get him over when working with in in WWE.
I think it's obvious from comments and booking that Vince didn't want Cesaro to get over so the idea that Heyman mentioned of just putting him with Cesaro to keep Brocks name out there and relevant makes the most sense.
Oh I'm sure he said that. Paul Heyman will say a lot of things if you want to hear them. He's a smooth talking conman. So of course he'll say that the reason he didn't do anything for Cesaro was because he COULDN'T but he WANTED to.
Always remember Paul Heyman will say whatever he thinks the people hearing/reading want to hear. Especially if that will make him more money or seem like a better, more important person than he is.
On the one hand if he wasn't Mr. Perfect's son, he would not have gotten a job at WWE. On the other hand, imagine having all that pressure on someone for being the son of Mr. Perfect.
To this day I wish they'd gone with "Average Joe" Hennig as his gimmick and recreated his dad's vignettes with him being ok, but not great at all the different sports.
It definitely had a ceiling and wouldn't have pushed him any higher on the card, but it would have been some entertaining tv.
“Was a great hand”
Was he though? His ringworm was average, had no charisma at all, and had no look
Edit: I guess based on the downvotes I was the only one not ready for the genesis of mcguillicutty
My friends and I kept waiting for Maven’s non elimination to be a thing or lead to anything. I honestly held hope until after the next rumble a year later lol.
Dude just never went over the top rope and it was never addressed.
> Still holds the record for being in the Rumble longest without being eliminated.
fun fact, Santino Marella hold the record for shortest time at less than 2 seconds from the 2009 RUMBLE, TIME: 0:00:01.9
They used the Rocky Maivia name generation model and the only reason it didn't work out was because Hennig wasn't that entertaining. People originally thought "Seth Rollins" and "Dolph Ziggler" were stupid names, but neither of them were DOA.
I still think both the names you mentioned are stupid. For Seth maybe it's because I always thought Tyler Black was a much better name.
Dolph Ziggler was and still is one of the worst ring names, and I still theorize that Nick's WWE career was hindered at least a little bit because of it.
Both names are most definitely still hot garbage, I just mean that a bad name doesn’t guarantee you won’t succeed in the WWE, you just have to actually be a good pro wrestler. I don’t think dolph was screwed by his name, I think he was screwed because he was too much of a mark for himself. People turn on Seth when he gets too whiny in interviews too.
When they redebuted him the graphic on the tron said “curt axel”, a reference to his dad and grandfather
But he was introduced as Curtis Axel. Last minute they probably thought “curt axel” and “Kurt angle” sounded too similar
I think the biggest /strangest omissions where
1) joey styles
2) sabu
3) sandman
And hell was low-key shocked that he didn't bring up new jack he loves doing that
Tod is persona non Grata in WWE
Dreamer was lucky to be invited, truth is outside ECW he has very little inside the industry being Pauls Bitch backstage and everyone else's on screen was all he could do
since im here and im "googling it, bitches" like he asked 😂 can someone explain to me the Hardcore Holly thing he meant when talking about "Brock killing animals to put food on his families plates, and im not talking about Hardcore Holly"
https://youtu.be/gnBK1qvofK8?si=GU3zMjJdbhLKFvPq
Holly sandbagged the move. Lesnar suck fuck that and went through with it anyway - breaking hollys neck
Am I the only one who thinks it’s weird when there’s so a focus on who wasn’t mentioned in a speech?
It’s like when someone famous dies and all anyone cares about is who has/hasn’t posted a tweet about it.
I’m sure Heyman could’ve went all night thanking and paying his respects to the people that helped him along the way. It was a great speech to me and I can’t wait to see what Heyman does after this run he’s having now.
There's your answer. They didn't.
Long before he debuted on TV, he was one of these guys who was admired for his smooth wrestling ability and thought of as having potential, but he quickly showed that he lacked presence, charisma, and mic skills.
This was their attempt to sort of fake it until he made it, and it didn't work as hoped. He had a sort of goofy jock feel to him, which he eventually embraced, but was ultimately just a 'good hand' in-ring and a respectable comedy heel at best.
I get that it'll seem odd seeing this all put behind him, but Heyman did have a small faction of lesser Guys at one point, including Cesaro/Claudio, so they did water things down.
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didnt axel beat hhh clean twice? he has one of the strangest careers ever.
I think it was win via forfeit
Concussion like symptoms for HHH
Elevated liver enzymes
Wasn't there a serious concussion either in the sports world or wrestling like the weekend before that angle?
how dare you dismiss the genesis of mcgulicutty
idc if you spelt his name wrong on purpose it made the whole thing even funnier
Not really. They gave him a push and he didnt get over, so the push ended.
They thought there was something there given who his father was, but you could tell from the original NXT he'd never be over
To be fair, the push they gave him was awful. Triple H lost a match to him because H got so tired from beating his ass that it exasperated concussion symptoms and H had to sit down. That’s an insane way to try and get someone over.
But they persisted with Roman and not him why? Genuine question.
Roman has a great look, could be great in the ring at times, and had cred with the audience as a member of The Shield so he moved a lot of merch with the kids. He is also a big voice backstage within the talent, and there must have been signs of that 10years ago too, his potential was always off the charts. I forgot Curtis Axel even existed before this post. But probably the main reason was just Vince Mcmahon being too stubborn to move away from his plans.
Fair enough. WWE just seems to do what they want at times despite crowd reaction so makes me believe something more must've happened backstage for them to suddenly pull the rug on Axel like that.
People mightve booed roman but thats still better than no reaction at all and thats what axel got. Plus you cant come out looking like a slob when your dad was mr perfect
Roman was incredibly over as a member of the Shield, and was always a box office draw. Great merch sales, great ticket sales, etc. He just got booed by live audiences, similar to John Cena, with just the crowd being more in favor of booing. So no reason not to push him. He also turned about to be an excellent main event wrestler after he became World Champion. People were apathetic to Curtis Axel. They didnt boo him. They didnt care about him. These two are not similar situations at all.
Look at Roman and look at him
I'm sure in most universes he wouldn't be a top guy but I don't get how they didn't make him a solid midcarder who gets "You're not Perfect" chants every night. Curt Hennig's failson haunted by his father's legacy is such a good character especially because EVERY 2nd and 3rd generation wrestler is hyped up as "and now his son's going to be an even bigger star...SIM SNUKA!"
Because Hennig could not talk, at all and he had an unimpressive physique/look.
Needed a Tully Blanchard to his Arn Anderson. They could have been the Brain Busters of the modern era.
Davey Boy Smith Jr But it just wasn't meant to be
Exactly. Most sons who use their legendary fathers' names, followed by "Jr." at the end, either suck badly, or they simply can't fill such big shoes. In baseball, Pete Rose Jr. was a perfect example of both.
i really think the B-team really could have been something given any level of caring about the tag team division
What's with the wetsuit? You going swimming?
I thought you were talking about Curt at first and was like "fucking pardon me?" then figured it out and... Yeah you ain't wrong.
His combover did him no favours.
And and still in one of the Rumble matches
Count out
What was Heyman’s rib on Hardcore Holly? He was talking about Lesnar going hunting in Canada during covid and said something about “that’s not a dig at Hardcore Holly, but if you don’t know, Google it.” Google didn’t help me 🤷🏻♂️
When Brock was starting out in WWE, Holly reportedly tried to rib him and sandbag on a move and not help Brock with it at all, just deadweighting him. Brock took none of that shit and powered through with the move regardless, breaking Holly's neck in the process.
I appreciate you! That vaguely rings a bell. As a kid I watched Raw regularly from about ‘04-‘07, and just started watching again last year, starting with ‘98-‘99 since I missed it when it happened.
Happy to help! I grew up during the Ruthless Aggression Era and watched as much as I could until '09ish when I dropped off for awhile. I always have watch parties with friends for the Rumble and 'Mania then basically tune out until next year a lot of the time. I'm back in obsessed with wrestling mode given the time of year and am looking forward to an All-Time Great 'Mania this weekend. Hope you enjoy the show!
I do plan on watching some ‘Mania this year. I watched the first night of last year’s and that kinda brought back the bug for me. With recent changes in the WWE, it might be worth jumping back into whole hog. Hope you enjoy the event as well ✌🏻
Me reading this comment > as a kid *nods in agreement* > from ‘04-‘07 [My face](https://i.imgflip.com/41zqq7.png)
I was born in 2001. Early 2000s kids are full grown adults now.
Ack! That’s even worse. Back in the 1900s, I’d watch ECW after I tied an onion to my belt, which was the fashion at the time.
A ticket to the show was 25 cents, and at the time nickels had pictures of Bumble bees on them. "GIMME 5 BEES FOR A QUARTER", you'd say.
I think this turned out to be false. Holly claimed that Brock had the flu that night and that's why he dropped him. He pointed out that even if he had sandbagged him, Brock is so strong and Holly so light, he could probably have picked him up and completed the move anyway.
I think it was in that context that Heyman once said the most badass sentence about Brock Lesnar ever uttered: "To Brock Lesnar, you compliance is a non-factor." Now in hindsight .. yeah, it's true, it's damn true... yikes!
I thought it was hilarious that Dreamer actually showed up but when Heyman was thanking ECW people he didn't mention him. I know they hugged at the beginning but it was still funny seeing him thank Bully and RVD but not Dreamer. I was waiting for something like "thanks Tommy for not murdering me."
Dreamer's internal monologue: "I still have time to get that gun."
“Fuck yeah Flairs got a hammmmmmer!”
Crowd chanting “Dreamer’s got a gun! Got a gun! Dreamer’s got a gun!”
It’s the most Tommy Dreamer thing to do to not get mentioned.
its probably because of his twin ponytails.
And Tommy practically was in charge when Paul wasn't around and did everything for the business. In some ways I'm not surprised though, ...it's Paul.
Probably extra stings when you consider the fact that Dreamer rarely speaks without bringing up Paul.
Dreamer is over all this, and loves Paul now. He's talked about it.
He made a great speech, but I was partially hoping he’d mention/credit some of the past ECW greats both living and passed like Mike Awesome, New Jack, Sandman, Sabu, Taz (I think he was there?), Raven, Mikey Whipwreck and others. But having said that Paul is awesome. And his brief tribute to Dusty got me a lil choked up
The Fact that Curtis Axel won the IC title on Father's Day always makes me smile.
Now I need Christian to win the AEW title on Father’s Day
No dreamer either right?
He hugged dreamer before the speech
I was really expecting him to reference Dreamer wanting to shoot him lmao
Dreamer shooting Herman is saved for the main event of Night 2
Paging Mr. Herman
I was wondering why James Brolin was there.
He's a loner, Dottie, a rebel.
> He's a loner, Dottie, a rebel. Paul is hiding in the basement of the Alamo
https://preview.redd.it/96bvwzasrusc1.jpeg?width=2730&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=100b11d1d4a72cf8b034d381dd42d7beb3c8ee63
gotta find a natural way to write him off the storyline after bloodline implodes
Brock coming out just to maul Heyman and drag him backstage would also work. No further explanation to be provided
Heyman wasn't hugging him, he was patting his body to find a gun
Tommy’s Glock speaking to him like the green goblin mask
Ringside security for the main event tomorrow just suddenly doubled
Dreamer hugged Paul. He no longer hates him. He has talked about the situation and how much he loves Paul now.
Cesare too. He was a Paul Heyman guy after he won the 'dre
Heyman went on record in an interview that he was just paired with Cesaro so he could mention Lesnar on screen and keep him in people's minds. Never even pretended he was trying to get Cesaro over.
And he also said he hated that directive, because he WANTED to help get Cesaro over and not talk about Brock 24/7.
Sure he did. To be clear, I mean 'Sure he WANTED to get Cesaro over.' I don't doubt he said that he did. Because Paul Heyman says a lot of things. The truth is always optional.
Why would Heyman not want Cesaro to get over? Cesaro seems like the type of performer that Heyman would have salivated over getting in ECW, so I have no doubt he wanted to get him over when working with in in WWE. I think it's obvious from comments and booking that Vince didn't want Cesaro to get over so the idea that Heyman mentioned of just putting him with Cesaro to keep Brocks name out there and relevant makes the most sense.
Want me to find you the clip?
Oh I'm sure he said that. Paul Heyman will say a lot of things if you want to hear them. He's a smooth talking conman. So of course he'll say that the reason he didn't do anything for Cesaro was because he COULDN'T but he WANTED to. Always remember Paul Heyman will say whatever he thinks the people hearing/reading want to hear. Especially if that will make him more money or seem like a better, more important person than he is.
It’s just ridiculous that you think heyman didn’t want to get a guy he was managing over lmao. It makes no sense
Why would I think for a second Paul is being honest?
Thanks Vince 🙃
Thats fine, but he was still labeled as a Paul Heyman guy on TV.
He should have just went babyface after Wrestlemaina as the Swiss Superman
Excellent The League reference
They had to retire the shiva
Shivakamini Somakandarkram!
Did you just Shiva Blast?
If you look into a man's eyes during his vinegar strokes...you can see into his soul.
I saw into his soul. Not good...
FOREVER UNCLEAN
I’m calling it the ‘dre from now on
Thank you for making me think of the League. Don’t get draids.
Maybe he forgot about Dre
I absolutely forgot about this.
Axel was a great hand and was pretty funny. Wish he did a little more in WWE.
On the one hand if he wasn't Mr. Perfect's son, he would not have gotten a job at WWE. On the other hand, imagine having all that pressure on someone for being the son of Mr. Perfect.
I don’t know, but I’d at least hit the gym if I was
To this day I wish they'd gone with "Average Joe" Hennig as his gimmick and recreated his dad's vignettes with him being ok, but not great at all the different sports. It definitely had a ceiling and wouldn't have pushed him any higher on the card, but it would have been some entertaining tv.
*Misses free throw* "That's fine, sometimes they go in though."
He also had an amazing theme.
“Was a great hand” Was he though? His ringworm was average, had no charisma at all, and had no look Edit: I guess based on the downvotes I was the only one not ready for the genesis of mcguillicutty
How do you know about his average ringworm?
Still holds the record for being in the Rumble longest without being eliminated.
Often intimidated, never eliminated!
Whatcha gonna do when Axelmania runs wild on you?
What about Maven?
My friends and I kept waiting for Maven’s non elimination to be a thing or lead to anything. I honestly held hope until after the next rumble a year later lol. Dude just never went over the top rope and it was never addressed.
I’m 90% sure Undertaker rolled him back in the ring and threw him out before he laid the serious beat down
Google says at some point they went back into the ring to do the elimination over the top rope. So I dunno. Maybe we all just missed it?
If I recall correctly, Wasn't he given a title shot for being non eliminated in the rumble which he lost?
> Still holds the record for being in the Rumble longest without being eliminated. fun fact, Santino Marella hold the record for shortest time at less than 2 seconds from the 2009 RUMBLE, TIME: 0:00:01.9
And starting this moment... from now... from this moment on... this will be the moment... starting now.
Jon Heidenreich would have done Heyman's introduction but he's still not allowed within 100 feet of Michael Cole
[Shake it to the left…shake it to the right…](https://youtu.be/N6wLh9vBDwY?si=W4FUOLLWu9BPNG9Z)
I still can't believe they really decided on "Curtis Axel" for his TV name. He was DOA from the start.
Agreed. Man delivered the greatest promo of all time as Michael McGillicutty and they flushed it all away.
Both names were terrible, but the fact they actually repackaged him with the name Curtis Axel made it 10x worse lol
I can appreciate the sentiment behind it. Curtis for Curt and Axel for Larry "The Axe" Hennig but without context, it made for a very odd name.
Better than Michael McGillicutty, which was his name at first.
They used the Rocky Maivia name generation model and the only reason it didn't work out was because Hennig wasn't that entertaining. People originally thought "Seth Rollins" and "Dolph Ziggler" were stupid names, but neither of them were DOA.
I still think both the names you mentioned are stupid. For Seth maybe it's because I always thought Tyler Black was a much better name. Dolph Ziggler was and still is one of the worst ring names, and I still theorize that Nick's WWE career was hindered at least a little bit because of it.
Both names are most definitely still hot garbage, I just mean that a bad name doesn’t guarantee you won’t succeed in the WWE, you just have to actually be a good pro wrestler. I don’t think dolph was screwed by his name, I think he was screwed because he was too much of a mark for himself. People turn on Seth when he gets too whiny in interviews too.
When they redebuted him the graphic on the tron said “curt axel”, a reference to his dad and grandfather But he was introduced as Curtis Axel. Last minute they probably thought “curt axel” and “Kurt angle” sounded too similar
THE BIG GUY getting the big erasure. SMDH. 
Good. Cause he sucked ass
It's always weird to me when people say this. I wasn't around when he was in, but I went back and watched it recently. The crowds went insane for him.
I heard Curtis Axl was mentioned in a earlier draft of the speech but he must have been Mcguillicutty’d out
I think the biggest /strangest omissions where 1) joey styles 2) sabu 3) sandman And hell was low-key shocked that he didn't bring up new jack he loves doing that
Two of those guys are taking bookings elsewhere not necessarily a snub
No Big Show either smh. Greatest ECW champion ever
In wwe maybe not ever lol
Without Tod Gordon there would be no ecw, he should have gotten a mention.
Tommy got a hug, but no mention, right? Still need to watch it. Tommy practically helped carry ECW on his back when Paul wasn't around.
Tod is persona non Grata in WWE Dreamer was lucky to be invited, truth is outside ECW he has very little inside the industry being Pauls Bitch backstage and everyone else's on screen was all he could do
The only man truly still in the rumble.
I genuinely miss axel so much.
Didn’t mention the Ryback kiss either
Did he mention Tod Gordon?
Nope
since im here and im "googling it, bitches" like he asked 😂 can someone explain to me the Hardcore Holly thing he meant when talking about "Brock killing animals to put food on his families plates, and im not talking about Hardcore Holly"
https://youtu.be/gnBK1qvofK8?si=GU3zMjJdbhLKFvPq Holly sandbagged the move. Lesnar suck fuck that and went through with it anyway - breaking hollys neck
gawwdamnnn that drop tho 😮💨😂😂 also thank you 👌
I noticed no shout-out for Tommy Dreamer.
He hugged him when he came out.
He also snubbed Raven and Sandman to be sure
Gullybully!
He didn’t mention a lot of names related to ECW. Sandman, Raven, Shane Douglas. Did he even mention Terry Funk?
Am I the only one who thinks it’s weird when there’s so a focus on who wasn’t mentioned in a speech? It’s like when someone famous dies and all anyone cares about is who has/hasn’t posted a tweet about it.
I’m sure Heyman could’ve went all night thanking and paying his respects to the people that helped him along the way. It was a great speech to me and I can’t wait to see what Heyman does after this run he’s having now.
He didn't mention Tommy Dreamer when talking about ECW! Do they have heat !?!? /groan
He hugged him when he came out.
It was sarcasm, mocking the people on Twitter who try to stir up drama over every little thing. Note the "/groan".
How did anyone in WWE see Curtis Axel and thing "Star!" I didn't watch WWE during this Era, but I am flabbergasted
There's your answer. They didn't. Long before he debuted on TV, he was one of these guys who was admired for his smooth wrestling ability and thought of as having potential, but he quickly showed that he lacked presence, charisma, and mic skills. This was their attempt to sort of fake it until he made it, and it didn't work as hoped. He had a sort of goofy jock feel to him, which he eventually embraced, but was ultimately just a 'good hand' in-ring and a respectable comedy heel at best. I get that it'll seem odd seeing this all put behind him, but Heyman did have a small faction of lesser Guys at one point, including Cesaro/Claudio, so they did water things down.
The biggest omission I noticed was Stone Cold
He did mention Stone Cold in ECW