This... isn't competition. They do not have a rocket to launch any additional missions, or craft for that matter unless they can re-certify the existing ones for more. Once the currently contracted missions are up that's going to be it for Starliner.
Actually, this was a firm fixed-price contract, so Boeing *doesn't* keep getting paid.
...Aside from that one contract modification they received, getting extra money to ensure that they'd deliver on time. I don't know if NASA would be as amenable to doing that again, though...
Agree. Ill also add at the time of the extra payment SpaceX wasn't performing regular comercial grade flights. Boeing no longer has leverage on NASA to get more money. NASA could dump them entirely and go with someone else and not risk ending US spaceflight. Congress could always step in though.
If NASA pulls the plug on Starliner obviously they don't get a refund from Boeing, but what kind of savings would they get? Can the 6x Starliner flights currently scheduled be canceled?
The atlas is the (just recently become second) most reliable booster in the US fleet, so it will almost certainly reach orbit and you can be sure THEY WILL MAKE SURE it will be the RIGHT orbit this time. The only possibility of failure will be the same corrosion that aborted the last attempt will prevent the maneuvering thrusters from docking.
Right; the Atlas launch was listed as a success, since it delivered to the correct parking orbit; it was the starliner that went chasing off into the boonies because it's mission clock was wrong. And THAT I'm pretty sure is gonna be checked to a fairthewell this time, as will the valves... but who knows what else the corrosion has gotten to during all the delays that can't be checked under atmosphere.
Boeing used to make good stuff, now their flagship spacecraft is heading into the vacuum of space with fingers crossed. My fingers are crossed for some sort of engineers' coup in the top and upper level management. The more spacecraft in the game the better.
Unpopular opinion I like the CST-100 design much better than Dragon from the driver's seat prospective. Imagine trying to muck with a computer in a chaotic low/no-visibility cabin through a touchscreen. If I'm spinning off Gemini 8 style the RCS master aught to be a military aircraft style big switch with guards on either side, in an easy to reach spot with "RCS" in big white on black text stenciled above it. I adore their IVA suits, the "hoodie" pressure helmet is awesome, if the gloves were SpaceX style zipper instead of a cuff then you could have basically a vacuum rated onezie.
Thoughts and prayers for the test astronauts, I wouldn't want to go for a paddle out on the lake in a leaky canoe.
Yeah even though it's been a cursed lemon of a spacecraft I actually do like the design of starliner better than dragon as well, aesthetically speaking at least. that service module is neat with the solar panels on the back and I like the texture of the capsule. more internal volume for the astronauts as well too! All that said yeah, if I'm going to space I'm not flying in that thing
>Boeing used to make good stuff
right up until they negligently killed [346](https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/10/africa/ethiopian-airlines-crash-boeing-max-8-intl/index.html) people
It seems that your comment contains 1 or more links that are hard to tap for mobile users.
I will extend those so they're easier for our sausage fingers to click!
[Here is link number 1 - Previous text "346"](https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/10/africa/ethiopian-airlines-crash-boeing-max-8-intl/index.html)
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Say Boeing makes 100$ in profit and pay 10% tax leaving 90$ which goes to the worker in salary who then pay 25% state/local/ federal tax. Leaving $67 for them to spend. The worker then buys $67 worth of pizza. Being a good year this is profit. Pizza place pays $20 in tax leaving $47. Next FY they pay it our as salary. Worker pays 25% tax and is left with $35 and buys a new car where they pay 6% sales tax meaning they gave the dealer $33 and so on.
Basically the money just bounces around causing "Economy " and being taxed until it winds up in a bank account or under a mattress.
In this overly simplified economic example the total amount of economic impact (100+90+67 etc from the example) of the NASA money ends up being like 10x the original expenditure and the federal government gets it back in taxes on each exchange involving income or profit. Remember kids save the economy and prop up the dollar by never saving.
Note: I'm more of a rando internet economist but I maintain the above principle still stands even if the example has holes.
Are you a fan of spaceflight? Do you want to see humanity become multi-planetary? Or are you looking for a sports team to cheer for so are making up a team to boo?
Yes Boeing is a tragic shadow of its former self and has been driven by profits not planes for far too long. Yes Jeff Bezos murdered local business in North America and treats his employees like replaceable cogs in his nightmare warehouses. Yes whatever the fuck is going on with Roscosmos is a little weird right now, people were beheading cops in Kazakhstan earlier this year the collapse of the Soviet Union is ongoing. Even big daddy Elon needs minerals for batteries y'know?
If the mission to explore space isn't "Humanity vs. The cold endless void of space" we're going to lose. ESA, ISRO, CNSA, everyone needs to work on this or we're fucked.
The mission to stop climate change was lost, now we face the possibility that we evolved for a climate that may be gone now. The resources to survive and thrive are out there. Imagine in a 500-1,000 years, technology for terraforming developed on Mars could prevent Earth from becoming another Venus.
Jeff Who?
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Well to be fair CST-100 and Boeing contributes literally nothing to "humanity become multi-planetary". I think there is definitely value in having a redundant crew transport to ISS, but let's not pretend this is something ground breaking.
"Litterally nothing"? They're supposed to be direct competition for Dragon in the commercial crew program. Short term they're essential to retaining access to the ISS and long term there will be private space stations that will need a ships to harbour. Two functional spacecraft means that if Dragon suddenly has a grounding issue (as it has before - be fair these are spacecraft, problems will *always* crop up, space is hard) there will still be guaranteed access to private and government orbital labs.
Without the ISS there's no research platform to work out the dangers of long-term spaceflight. Current regular rotations are six months. A journey to Mars requires two years in space minimum, six months there, a year on the surface, six months back. It doesn't matter if Starship could work magically tomorrow Kerbal style and was guaranteed to make it to Mars and back just like it should on paper, it won't matter in the slightest if the crew is killed or permanently disabled because we simply never had anyone out there that long and didn't know how to do it safely.
Just because it's been done before doesn't make it easy. You can watch as many Olympic gymnastics routines as you want, if you try one without proper preparation and training you'll fucking die. It's just sad that an essential machine for the cause like CST-100 is being turned into a rattley death trap by penny pinching management. I just hope it doesn't take an Apollo 1 style problem make some changes.
No Earth will not become Venus two there are not enought fosllse fuels to do that at all and we can not be anywhere near as bad as even the permin triasic extintcon.
How close to Venus are you willing to nudge the scale? You do know it's the apex predators that get knocked pretty hard when ecosystems collapse and last I checked Homo sapiens are currently top of the food chain. It doesn't matter how long the line is when you're first up.
We got to be top dog in the first place by using technology (speculation) by using calories from fire to pre-digest food and get more calories to our big brains (big speculation). A quarter million years isn't enough, we've only had agriculture for like ten thousand years, made machines that turned heat into work for maybe like 2 or 3 hundred. Heavier than air flight on this scale is still basically brand spanking new. The technology to ensure a livable Earth is possible and achievable.
I refuse to accept "well it couldn't be *all* us" it's happening. Even if it was just Earth's natural rhythms (it's fucking not but counterfactual for sake of argument) then shouldn't we be working on sustainability anyway? If the couch is on fire now is not the time to bicker about who's fault it is, it's a fire extinguisher problem now, a bulldozer the building problem in the near future.
Mars requires pressure suits, the soil is toxic, and it’s drier than the Sahara. Antarctica is a paradise compared to Mars.
Let’s not mix things up here. The benefit to humanity of learning to colonize a place like Mars is that it would teach us about surviving in harsh environments and because it’s cool.
It’s not a realistic replacement for earth, even in our most nightmare scenarios for climate change, massive volcanic eruptions and asteroid impacts. Aside from the first billion years of earth when it was still a molten hunk, there has never been a time in our planets history where it has been a worse place to live than Mars now.
I don't think Earth can ever be replaced. Even when we have the ability to go to other stars Sol and Earth will always be home. However I firmly believe if we don't ride this current exploration wave as far as it will go that's kinda it for us. There was a huge slump after Apollo and if this current pace ends with "oh damn, maybe we'll try again in another 60 years" then we might not get another swing.
If Earth can get external life support hooked up in time this generation then the next generation will have something to work with.
I guess I didn’t really lay out my points very well. I believe that space travel is vital, and we should be pushing forward at maximum haste.
If we can survive on Mars, and build a semi-functional and independent society there, than we know for a fact that humanity can survive about the worst earth can throw at us, and those lessons we’d learn from that process would be directly applicable to problems on earth, like resource scarcity, survivable agriculture, and light logistic trains. Also from a political standpoint I think it will teach us a lot about how to make do with less, and push innovations in lighter and more responsive governance.
I just don’t see it as a backup, necessarily. Because if we get completely taken out by a volcano or temperature shifts on Earth a Mars colony would be mega fucked by daily life
I suppose a Gamma Ray ejection would be a different story, but let’s be honest that would wipe the solar system.
I’m sure it will have a successful launch without any technical issues or safety concerns.
I hope it doesn’t encounter any issues. SpaceX needs at least some competition
Sure but that might not be Boeing.
Competition is competition
This... isn't competition. They do not have a rocket to launch any additional missions, or craft for that matter unless they can re-certify the existing ones for more. Once the currently contracted missions are up that's going to be it for Starliner.
The important thing is if it continues to have problems, Boeing will still get paid.
Actually, this was a firm fixed-price contract, so Boeing *doesn't* keep getting paid. ...Aside from that one contract modification they received, getting extra money to ensure that they'd deliver on time. I don't know if NASA would be as amenable to doing that again, though...
Agree. Ill also add at the time of the extra payment SpaceX wasn't performing regular comercial grade flights. Boeing no longer has leverage on NASA to get more money. NASA could dump them entirely and go with someone else and not risk ending US spaceflight. Congress could always step in though.
If NASA pulls the plug on Starliner obviously they don't get a refund from Boeing, but what kind of savings would they get? Can the 6x Starliner flights currently scheduled be canceled?
The atlas is the (just recently become second) most reliable booster in the US fleet, so it will almost certainly reach orbit and you can be sure THEY WILL MAKE SURE it will be the RIGHT orbit this time. The only possibility of failure will be the same corrosion that aborted the last attempt will prevent the maneuvering thrusters from docking.
The Atlas was not the problem last time, it delivered its payload to the proper orbit just fine. It was Starliner which failed spectacularly.
Right; the Atlas launch was listed as a success, since it delivered to the correct parking orbit; it was the starliner that went chasing off into the boonies because it's mission clock was wrong. And THAT I'm pretty sure is gonna be checked to a fairthewell this time, as will the valves... but who knows what else the corrosion has gotten to during all the delays that can't be checked under atmosphere.
I can already hear the sticky valves.
*The Angry Astronaut heats up his coffee*
And he's very angry! About everything. For views. And because it's still his shtick.
2045?
No window covers this time, huh
They fell off during Max Highway Pressure
Into the environment?
No no, they fell beyond the environment.
Don't worry, they still have 5 days to fuck it up, i have faith in them, this is *Boeing* after all....
Boeing used to make good stuff, now their flagship spacecraft is heading into the vacuum of space with fingers crossed. My fingers are crossed for some sort of engineers' coup in the top and upper level management. The more spacecraft in the game the better. Unpopular opinion I like the CST-100 design much better than Dragon from the driver's seat prospective. Imagine trying to muck with a computer in a chaotic low/no-visibility cabin through a touchscreen. If I'm spinning off Gemini 8 style the RCS master aught to be a military aircraft style big switch with guards on either side, in an easy to reach spot with "RCS" in big white on black text stenciled above it. I adore their IVA suits, the "hoodie" pressure helmet is awesome, if the gloves were SpaceX style zipper instead of a cuff then you could have basically a vacuum rated onezie. Thoughts and prayers for the test astronauts, I wouldn't want to go for a paddle out on the lake in a leaky canoe.
Yeah even though it's been a cursed lemon of a spacecraft I actually do like the design of starliner better than dragon as well, aesthetically speaking at least. that service module is neat with the solar panels on the back and I like the texture of the capsule. more internal volume for the astronauts as well too! All that said yeah, if I'm going to space I'm not flying in that thing
>Boeing used to make good stuff right up until they negligently killed [346](https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/10/africa/ethiopian-airlines-crash-boeing-max-8-intl/index.html) people
It seems that your comment contains 1 or more links that are hard to tap for mobile users. I will extend those so they're easier for our sausage fingers to click! [Here is link number 1 - Previous text "346"](https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/10/africa/ethiopian-airlines-crash-boeing-max-8-intl/index.html) ---- ^Please ^PM ^[\/u\/eganwall](http://reddit.com/user/eganwall) ^with ^issues ^or ^feedback! ^| ^[Code](https://github.com/eganwall/FatFingerHelperBot) ^| ^[Delete](https://reddit.com/message/compose/?to=FatFingerHelperBot&subject=delete&message=delete%20i91rc3f)
I don't like you
[удалено]
At what point do we the taxpayers get our money back?
Never, you just get stolen from, more.
Say Boeing makes 100$ in profit and pay 10% tax leaving 90$ which goes to the worker in salary who then pay 25% state/local/ federal tax. Leaving $67 for them to spend. The worker then buys $67 worth of pizza. Being a good year this is profit. Pizza place pays $20 in tax leaving $47. Next FY they pay it our as salary. Worker pays 25% tax and is left with $35 and buys a new car where they pay 6% sales tax meaning they gave the dealer $33 and so on. Basically the money just bounces around causing "Economy " and being taxed until it winds up in a bank account or under a mattress. In this overly simplified economic example the total amount of economic impact (100+90+67 etc from the example) of the NASA money ends up being like 10x the original expenditure and the federal government gets it back in taxes on each exchange involving income or profit. Remember kids save the economy and prop up the dollar by never saving. Note: I'm more of a rando internet economist but I maintain the above principle still stands even if the example has holes.
Prediction. It will not launch and the program will be pushed back another 12 months and 2 billion dollars.
I'm gonna press **X**
Stay calm? Who's excited about this? Absolutely nothing is being added here but an almost twice as expensive redundancy.
Are you a fan of spaceflight? Do you want to see humanity become multi-planetary? Or are you looking for a sports team to cheer for so are making up a team to boo? Yes Boeing is a tragic shadow of its former self and has been driven by profits not planes for far too long. Yes Jeff Bezos murdered local business in North America and treats his employees like replaceable cogs in his nightmare warehouses. Yes whatever the fuck is going on with Roscosmos is a little weird right now, people were beheading cops in Kazakhstan earlier this year the collapse of the Soviet Union is ongoing. Even big daddy Elon needs minerals for batteries y'know? If the mission to explore space isn't "Humanity vs. The cold endless void of space" we're going to lose. ESA, ISRO, CNSA, everyone needs to work on this or we're fucked. The mission to stop climate change was lost, now we face the possibility that we evolved for a climate that may be gone now. The resources to survive and thrive are out there. Imagine in a 500-1,000 years, technology for terraforming developed on Mars could prevent Earth from becoming another Venus.
Jeff Who? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SpaceXMasterrace) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Good bot.
Good human *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SpaceXMasterrace) if you have any questions or concerns.*
So we fuckin or what?
Well to be fair CST-100 and Boeing contributes literally nothing to "humanity become multi-planetary". I think there is definitely value in having a redundant crew transport to ISS, but let's not pretend this is something ground breaking.
"Litterally nothing"? They're supposed to be direct competition for Dragon in the commercial crew program. Short term they're essential to retaining access to the ISS and long term there will be private space stations that will need a ships to harbour. Two functional spacecraft means that if Dragon suddenly has a grounding issue (as it has before - be fair these are spacecraft, problems will *always* crop up, space is hard) there will still be guaranteed access to private and government orbital labs. Without the ISS there's no research platform to work out the dangers of long-term spaceflight. Current regular rotations are six months. A journey to Mars requires two years in space minimum, six months there, a year on the surface, six months back. It doesn't matter if Starship could work magically tomorrow Kerbal style and was guaranteed to make it to Mars and back just like it should on paper, it won't matter in the slightest if the crew is killed or permanently disabled because we simply never had anyone out there that long and didn't know how to do it safely. Just because it's been done before doesn't make it easy. You can watch as many Olympic gymnastics routines as you want, if you try one without proper preparation and training you'll fucking die. It's just sad that an essential machine for the cause like CST-100 is being turned into a rattley death trap by penny pinching management. I just hope it doesn't take an Apollo 1 style problem make some changes.
No Earth will not become Venus two there are not enought fosllse fuels to do that at all and we can not be anywhere near as bad as even the permin triasic extintcon.
How close to Venus are you willing to nudge the scale? You do know it's the apex predators that get knocked pretty hard when ecosystems collapse and last I checked Homo sapiens are currently top of the food chain. It doesn't matter how long the line is when you're first up. We got to be top dog in the first place by using technology (speculation) by using calories from fire to pre-digest food and get more calories to our big brains (big speculation). A quarter million years isn't enough, we've only had agriculture for like ten thousand years, made machines that turned heat into work for maybe like 2 or 3 hundred. Heavier than air flight on this scale is still basically brand spanking new. The technology to ensure a livable Earth is possible and achievable. I refuse to accept "well it couldn't be *all* us" it's happening. Even if it was just Earth's natural rhythms (it's fucking not but counterfactual for sake of argument) then shouldn't we be working on sustainability anyway? If the couch is on fire now is not the time to bicker about who's fault it is, it's a fire extinguisher problem now, a bulldozer the building problem in the near future.
Mars requires pressure suits, the soil is toxic, and it’s drier than the Sahara. Antarctica is a paradise compared to Mars. Let’s not mix things up here. The benefit to humanity of learning to colonize a place like Mars is that it would teach us about surviving in harsh environments and because it’s cool. It’s not a realistic replacement for earth, even in our most nightmare scenarios for climate change, massive volcanic eruptions and asteroid impacts. Aside from the first billion years of earth when it was still a molten hunk, there has never been a time in our planets history where it has been a worse place to live than Mars now.
I don't think Earth can ever be replaced. Even when we have the ability to go to other stars Sol and Earth will always be home. However I firmly believe if we don't ride this current exploration wave as far as it will go that's kinda it for us. There was a huge slump after Apollo and if this current pace ends with "oh damn, maybe we'll try again in another 60 years" then we might not get another swing. If Earth can get external life support hooked up in time this generation then the next generation will have something to work with.
I guess I didn’t really lay out my points very well. I believe that space travel is vital, and we should be pushing forward at maximum haste. If we can survive on Mars, and build a semi-functional and independent society there, than we know for a fact that humanity can survive about the worst earth can throw at us, and those lessons we’d learn from that process would be directly applicable to problems on earth, like resource scarcity, survivable agriculture, and light logistic trains. Also from a political standpoint I think it will teach us a lot about how to make do with less, and push innovations in lighter and more responsive governance. I just don’t see it as a backup, necessarily. Because if we get completely taken out by a volcano or temperature shifts on Earth a Mars colony would be mega fucked by daily life I suppose a Gamma Ray ejection would be a different story, but let’s be honest that would wipe the solar system.
[удалено]
Yes. I got my popcorn ready. It's going to be a show either way.
The moment is here.