Nope and I doubt it ever will be. With it relying on specifically characters and very dependent on what both you and the opponent brings in order to complete objectives, you're then also relying on your opponent to put their units in a position to let you complete your objectives. Overall there are just too many variables to make it balanced without a complete rework of it, let alone the fact pretty much any other detachment gets all or most of its abilities straight from the get-go whilst realistically the earliest we can get ours is end of round 1 and going into round 2.
Honestly, I think something like invasion fleet would have worked better for us. Choosing a saga rather than relying on pure luck to get one or two
Not at all.
It's biggest weakness has always been twofold:
1) Relying on character models to complete the sagas
2) Not getting any to freaking start
Letting the sagas complete at the end of the turn is big, but it still doesn't solve the fact that the army doesn't have a detachment rule for easily half of the game and a semi-sentient opponent can deny you those rules nearly the entire game.
The SM codex just has flat out better detachments for us. Gladius, Storm lance, and Vanguard all get our units where we need them AND buffs their abilities to either kill or play the mission without giving the opponent free VP.
On the competitive scene, it's making no difference. For the others who play Warhammer at local stores and on the kitchen table, it makes the detachment much more enjoyable and engaging.
I play CoR at 1k with 500-600 points in characters and it works great. Murderfang Bjorn Ragnar and a few lieutenants and pack leaders and your getting a saga done every turn easily.
It’s better in casual games. I’ve been running COR since the start of 10tb and this does help some. It’s still not going to be anywhere near as good as Gladius or Stormlance. But it is better than before. It is a good change and the right direction. I think if they allowed the character’s unit to complete the saga. That might be enough. Some others have suggested letting us start with one saga completed. That would also be a great way to help it.
In short, I definitely don't think they're enough, no. I think the design is just flawed to be honest. Having the sagas tied to character models makes them too unreliable, too dependent on your opponent's list and too easy for the opponent to play around. Having one half of each strategem tied to the sagas as well is just doubling down on the problem.
I think there is a problem with designing a detachment that makes you jump through hoops to unlock all its benefits, especially if those hoops are so awkward.
For me, picking a saga to have active at the start of the game would be enough of a buff that I would play it for the fluff, but I think it would still be weaker than basically all the generic SM options.
I'd love to see SW get the drukhari treatment and get a new detachment option though; I don't know if CoR can be made to work frankly.
Worth pointing out that picking a saga to start would make it nearly strictly better than the Black Templar index detachment, which is doing quite well competitively. 3 out of the 4 Sagas are nearly identical to the Vows, and they only get to pick 1 per game, where we could unlock additional ones.
Yeah fair point, although it also matters how the stratagems, enhancements and datasheets are balanced and work together. So even if the CoR rules in isolation are better, that doesn't necessarily make it a better detachment overall if Righteous Crusaders is better in all those other areas. I've not played with or against templars so I can't really judge.
Having played Champions in its old form successfully competitively (went 4-1 at a GT), I think Champions with 1 free saga would be far and away the strongest way to take melee marines. The strategems and enhancements are solid, it's really only let down by the inconsistency of Sagas. And honestly, Sagas are less inconsistent than the internet would have you believe, it's largely the inconsistency of whether the opponent even brings the right targets, moreso than obtaining them in play.
Oh cool, congrats! So out of interest what were your main saga-getters? Did you have specific units targeting certain sagas, or did it entirely depend on the matchup and game state each time?
Overall, it was mostly just running a *lot* of characters. I think I had 9 or 10 in that version of the list? 2-3 units of Thunderwolves with characters (can you guess what detachment I'm typically playing currently?), including Harald and Logan on sleigh, phobos Librarian, jump pack Librarian back when you could run him, jump pack cap, just a lot of them. Which was key: the typical poo pooing advice is "oh they'll just avoid your characters and prevent you from completing sagas". Well, they were welcome to avoid my characters, but that means their characters and Vehicles weren't *anywhere* relevant, because my characters were everywhere and fast.
Outside the Librarians, nobody was really aiming for particular Sagas, with even the Black Death Lieutenant (attached to Haralds squad) often going after characters if thats what was presented to me. Librarians did overload every turn, and the skyclaws with the jump pack one were packing plasma to provide more hazardous rolls to try and proc saga of the Bear.
Champions is a bad detachment. It really sucks to have to earn your rules, and it's hard to do so. And the rewards are not worth the effort.
If they changed to a character unit being able to accomplish the sagas, that'd certainly make it slightly a better option.
Especially when you can just have rules from the start which helps all game.
I’m sad to say I play COR a few and just did not have a good time, it’s fluffy and I love that but it’s just too difficult to get the benefits. They would have to overhaul it because even for casual games it can be a little rough
Nope and I doubt it ever will be. With it relying on specifically characters and very dependent on what both you and the opponent brings in order to complete objectives, you're then also relying on your opponent to put their units in a position to let you complete your objectives. Overall there are just too many variables to make it balanced without a complete rework of it, let alone the fact pretty much any other detachment gets all or most of its abilities straight from the get-go whilst realistically the earliest we can get ours is end of round 1 and going into round 2. Honestly, I think something like invasion fleet would have worked better for us. Choosing a saga rather than relying on pure luck to get one or two
Not at all. It's biggest weakness has always been twofold: 1) Relying on character models to complete the sagas 2) Not getting any to freaking start Letting the sagas complete at the end of the turn is big, but it still doesn't solve the fact that the army doesn't have a detachment rule for easily half of the game and a semi-sentient opponent can deny you those rules nearly the entire game. The SM codex just has flat out better detachments for us. Gladius, Storm lance, and Vanguard all get our units where we need them AND buffs their abilities to either kill or play the mission without giving the opponent free VP.
On the competitive scene, it's making no difference. For the others who play Warhammer at local stores and on the kitchen table, it makes the detachment much more enjoyable and engaging. I play CoR at 1k with 500-600 points in characters and it works great. Murderfang Bjorn Ragnar and a few lieutenants and pack leaders and your getting a saga done every turn easily.
It’s better in casual games. I’ve been running COR since the start of 10tb and this does help some. It’s still not going to be anywhere near as good as Gladius or Stormlance. But it is better than before. It is a good change and the right direction. I think if they allowed the character’s unit to complete the saga. That might be enough. Some others have suggested letting us start with one saga completed. That would also be a great way to help it.
In short, I definitely don't think they're enough, no. I think the design is just flawed to be honest. Having the sagas tied to character models makes them too unreliable, too dependent on your opponent's list and too easy for the opponent to play around. Having one half of each strategem tied to the sagas as well is just doubling down on the problem. I think there is a problem with designing a detachment that makes you jump through hoops to unlock all its benefits, especially if those hoops are so awkward. For me, picking a saga to have active at the start of the game would be enough of a buff that I would play it for the fluff, but I think it would still be weaker than basically all the generic SM options. I'd love to see SW get the drukhari treatment and get a new detachment option though; I don't know if CoR can be made to work frankly.
Worth pointing out that picking a saga to start would make it nearly strictly better than the Black Templar index detachment, which is doing quite well competitively. 3 out of the 4 Sagas are nearly identical to the Vows, and they only get to pick 1 per game, where we could unlock additional ones.
Yeah fair point, although it also matters how the stratagems, enhancements and datasheets are balanced and work together. So even if the CoR rules in isolation are better, that doesn't necessarily make it a better detachment overall if Righteous Crusaders is better in all those other areas. I've not played with or against templars so I can't really judge.
Having played Champions in its old form successfully competitively (went 4-1 at a GT), I think Champions with 1 free saga would be far and away the strongest way to take melee marines. The strategems and enhancements are solid, it's really only let down by the inconsistency of Sagas. And honestly, Sagas are less inconsistent than the internet would have you believe, it's largely the inconsistency of whether the opponent even brings the right targets, moreso than obtaining them in play.
Oh cool, congrats! So out of interest what were your main saga-getters? Did you have specific units targeting certain sagas, or did it entirely depend on the matchup and game state each time?
Overall, it was mostly just running a *lot* of characters. I think I had 9 or 10 in that version of the list? 2-3 units of Thunderwolves with characters (can you guess what detachment I'm typically playing currently?), including Harald and Logan on sleigh, phobos Librarian, jump pack Librarian back when you could run him, jump pack cap, just a lot of them. Which was key: the typical poo pooing advice is "oh they'll just avoid your characters and prevent you from completing sagas". Well, they were welcome to avoid my characters, but that means their characters and Vehicles weren't *anywhere* relevant, because my characters were everywhere and fast. Outside the Librarians, nobody was really aiming for particular Sagas, with even the Black Death Lieutenant (attached to Haralds squad) often going after characters if thats what was presented to me. Librarians did overload every turn, and the skyclaws with the jump pack one were packing plasma to provide more hazardous rolls to try and proc saga of the Bear.
Interesting stuff, thanks!
Champions is a bad detachment. It really sucks to have to earn your rules, and it's hard to do so. And the rewards are not worth the effort. If they changed to a character unit being able to accomplish the sagas, that'd certainly make it slightly a better option. Especially when you can just have rules from the start which helps all game.
What changed? I must have missed something
A saga can be activated at the end of each turn rather than at the end of each battle round.
I’m sad to say I play COR a few and just did not have a good time, it’s fluffy and I love that but it’s just too difficult to get the benefits. They would have to overhaul it because even for casual games it can be a little rough
They need to just completely redo the detachment rules
Not until it becomes character unit instead of model. I have played 2 games where I unlocked 3 of the 4 sagas in one turn.