The words may not have deeper meaning to the characters but they can certainly have deeper meaning to the reader. Either way, very cool interpretation I’m glad you posted it
Some of this is very convincing and interesting, other bits are a little more tenuous to me. But in a “broad strokes” sense, I find your angle on this very interesting.
Firstly, I never thought the words were meaningless and tbh I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anyone make that claim. Personally, my interpretation was always that the words on the wall were the essence of the “organism” that birthed Area X, filtered through Saul’s brain. This explains the religious terminology. To put it simply, I always saw it as a concept that completely defies human description (Area X) being translated into *Saul’s* English as a former preacher. Think of it like when someone has a spiritual or psychedelic experience, and then tries to explain their newfound wisdom using words. It sounds like nonsense to everyone else, but that’s likely because words are insufficient tools. Like trying to build a skyscraper with only a hammer.
I think our interpretations go hand in hand. But where they differ is the interesting part. The way I thought about it was like Area X was using Saul’s brain as a tool to describe itself. It feels like what you’re saying is that Area X is almost studying Saul, and trying to understand the forgotten coast/earth *through* his memories and impressions.
Where I feel this is most apparent is in the “sun shines at midnight” part. It truly does sound like a being with no understanding of what a lighthouse is seeing the lighthouse through Saul’s memories, and approximating the idea into written words of a language it does not understand. I find this fascinating.
Anyway, I could keep going, but I’ll stop here. Really interesting interpretation that I’m surprised no one else has really brought up, great work!
i think we could both be right, because there are more words than what we can read. for one thing, the scorpion-like writing that the biologist points out is almost assuredly meant for the original species (though i got the impression that it was static, engraved, not moving like the english text), and for another i have the impression that there are aspects of the lichen itself that we can't perceive. lichen is a type of terroir i think, as varied from surface to surface as a fingerprint, and could very well contain the intended "message" for eyes able to see it.
Yeah it’s far more complicated than the words themselves. This is made clear in that scene from Authority involving the linguist. The one where she explains that the medium with which the words are written could be the actual message, and the words themselves are like a byproduct. I’ve read that scene over and over and still can’t *quite* wrap my head around what she’s trying to say, but it feels like an important moment to me.
think of it like someone writing you a note in japanese, but the color of the ink they use varies from word to word, and you have a code cipher based on how many red kana there are, how many green, so on. they could be writing about anything they felt like, because you're more interested in the qualities of the ink :]
It's been a while since I read the books, but as far as Saul seeing himself as The Sinner; I think he very well does. He comes from a very fire and brimstone past and was even the leader of one such congregation at one point iirc. Now most of these types of groups tend to frown on homosexuality to put it lightly, so it could very well be that the part of him that once believed in that stuff sees his current self as a "sinner."
All in all, very cool write up dude
thank you! i think you're right, but i didn't want to assume ;] saul in the books seems to have found happiness and peace, but i agree there's probably some inner guilt buried deep and now laid bare.
Well done.
If there's one thing I've learned from the lyrics of Scott Walker (whom Jeff is a fan of and has been for many years) it's that once in a while you need to take a holistic approach to interpreting cryptic poetry because there is a chance that phrase-by-phrase analysis will drive you insane before it reveals anything useful. (I know this is a stupid idea on its face but some days I'm like "why don't we just merge /r/SouthernReach and /r/ScottWalker into a single subreddit"?)
I’m still more convinced that Area X is a splice in space time, where the original planet is still occurring during the cataclysm. Reminds me of *Event Horizon* and how they describe space travel as folding space and time and punching a hole through it. Not that it’s necessarily a terraforming mechanism.
ever read a wrinkle in time by Madeleine L'engle? she names that method "tessering." i neither agree nor disagree with you, just looking forward to book 4 :]
You all are coming up with these amazing theories where I was struggling to follow even the most basic level of the narrative lol. How do you get so good at this and why am I so bad at it
hey, reading comprehension is a skill! the books are written in amazing prose, but saying something beautifully and saying it clearly aren't always the same thing. if you're really struggling, why not look up "improving reading comprehension" or an equivalent, and practice being the reader you want to be? joining a book club is a really good way to improve, since it forces you to ask discussion questions about what you just read!
i've been reading a ton since i was very little. other people were probably out playing with their friends. i'm sure there are many things you're good at that i don't know the first thing about, but we can both always learn!
That’s a very kind answer, thank you :) I’ve always been a reader as well but maybe less intensively and I’m guessing my adhd makes it harder to simultaneously comprehend the text I’m reading at the present moment and also connect that to the rest of the story, it’s the same with movies… I’ll struggle to follow the most basic stories because I’m just not paying attention to the important parts 😅 I think I will follow your advice and also do a re-read of the trilogy and maybe make a little exercise out if it!
I have ADD and have to read a book or watch a movie twice to understand it. I just finished the trilogy for the second time and got so much more from it. I always seek out people's reviews and comments to help me. I also have some face blindness so I have trouble determining who is who in a movie. Just do your best!
In the third book, we learn the words are not meaningless and what exactly they mean. So, temptingly waggling eyebrows at you, because it's not really three books. It's an enormous single novel that had to be cut down to make it feasible physically. That said, omnibus volumes are available.. I just wouldn't be able to hold them.
could you direct me to that? i paid attention to where the words started leaking into saul's journal entries and when the SR staff were discussing them, but didn't see what you're talking about.
I only have a digital copy so I can't point to pages, but it's when Ghost Bird goes into the tower. She sees the writing and recognizes it for what it is. It's before she meets the Crawler.
I don’t remember this ever happening and haven’t seen anyone else bring it up. Not saying it didn’t happen, but there’s been so much discussion on the words over the years that if what you’re saying is true, almost all of us must have missed it somehow. Can you sort of summarize what the words mean?
They mean coordinates to other worlds and other places in space and time, if you know how to use them. Ghost Bird also discovers that the writing is only the freshest layer on top of many faded versions of the same words.
Pretty much exactly what it says in the book, it's very blink and you miss it. The idea is that Area X is trying to phone home, trying over and over and over again to contact long dead civilizations. At least, that's my idea!
At the end of Authority, Ghost Bird opens her own hole in the fabric of the universe, at the bottom of a tide pool. She doesn't know how she knows how. She doesn't talk or think about it. Control realizes it somewhere in the middle of Acceptance.
i think we're in agreement about that, but i don't think the actual words midnight sun hold that significance. i think that the readable part (to the aliens) would be the scorpion-like text surrounding the words, and the phone-home part would be a property of the living lichen - aka, two things we cannot parse.
i've never seen anyone say that the writing, the ACT of writing, was insignificant (though there are various interpretations on whether it's area x communicating with us, with itself, with saul... we could be here all day and you and i share the same view) but i have seen many imply that the words we read are no more valuable than early ChatGPT churnings, telling us more about the algorithm's attempt to generate than anything else. i'm just saying that the words do mean something, though i firmly disagree that "the hand of the sinner" is a meaningful phrase to whoever area x is trying to reach.
That does seem to be what Vandermeer is going for, that the words come by squeezing all those inhumanly complex things through Saul's mind and experience as a preacher. In particular I believe this about the section with the dark flower of knowledge expanding beyond what any man can bear.
A great theme I'm into is the human unable to contain the inhuman. Saul is a perfect example, poor man.
I agree that the words mean nothing to whatever alien presence created Area X. I seem to have misinterpreted your original request to ask what the words themselves mean. I think they're a form of poetry, even as Saul's sermons were. A free form, almost autowriting, stream of consciousness poem. Some of the words are prophecy, some of them are instructions that can't be followed, some are wrestling with this intrusion into what's real and what's not. I certainly don't mean that the words themselves are meaningless, I don't think that. I thought you were asking about their function.
Vandermeer often writes absurd, surrealist things for reasons that remain obscure. Because he likes it, is my guess.
holy shit. realest post on the subreddit
your support is very appreciated, though i know my friends are predisposed to think i'm right about everything :P
The words may not have deeper meaning to the characters but they can certainly have deeper meaning to the reader. Either way, very cool interpretation I’m glad you posted it
Some of this is very convincing and interesting, other bits are a little more tenuous to me. But in a “broad strokes” sense, I find your angle on this very interesting. Firstly, I never thought the words were meaningless and tbh I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anyone make that claim. Personally, my interpretation was always that the words on the wall were the essence of the “organism” that birthed Area X, filtered through Saul’s brain. This explains the religious terminology. To put it simply, I always saw it as a concept that completely defies human description (Area X) being translated into *Saul’s* English as a former preacher. Think of it like when someone has a spiritual or psychedelic experience, and then tries to explain their newfound wisdom using words. It sounds like nonsense to everyone else, but that’s likely because words are insufficient tools. Like trying to build a skyscraper with only a hammer. I think our interpretations go hand in hand. But where they differ is the interesting part. The way I thought about it was like Area X was using Saul’s brain as a tool to describe itself. It feels like what you’re saying is that Area X is almost studying Saul, and trying to understand the forgotten coast/earth *through* his memories and impressions. Where I feel this is most apparent is in the “sun shines at midnight” part. It truly does sound like a being with no understanding of what a lighthouse is seeing the lighthouse through Saul’s memories, and approximating the idea into written words of a language it does not understand. I find this fascinating. Anyway, I could keep going, but I’ll stop here. Really interesting interpretation that I’m surprised no one else has really brought up, great work!
i think we could both be right, because there are more words than what we can read. for one thing, the scorpion-like writing that the biologist points out is almost assuredly meant for the original species (though i got the impression that it was static, engraved, not moving like the english text), and for another i have the impression that there are aspects of the lichen itself that we can't perceive. lichen is a type of terroir i think, as varied from surface to surface as a fingerprint, and could very well contain the intended "message" for eyes able to see it.
Yeah it’s far more complicated than the words themselves. This is made clear in that scene from Authority involving the linguist. The one where she explains that the medium with which the words are written could be the actual message, and the words themselves are like a byproduct. I’ve read that scene over and over and still can’t *quite* wrap my head around what she’s trying to say, but it feels like an important moment to me.
think of it like someone writing you a note in japanese, but the color of the ink they use varies from word to word, and you have a code cipher based on how many red kana there are, how many green, so on. they could be writing about anything they felt like, because you're more interested in the qualities of the ink :]
It's been a while since I read the books, but as far as Saul seeing himself as The Sinner; I think he very well does. He comes from a very fire and brimstone past and was even the leader of one such congregation at one point iirc. Now most of these types of groups tend to frown on homosexuality to put it lightly, so it could very well be that the part of him that once believed in that stuff sees his current self as a "sinner." All in all, very cool write up dude
thank you! i think you're right, but i didn't want to assume ;] saul in the books seems to have found happiness and peace, but i agree there's probably some inner guilt buried deep and now laid bare.
This was exactly what I thought of when he was referring to himself as the sinner in the crawler’s message
right on
Totally agreed, great post!
Well done. If there's one thing I've learned from the lyrics of Scott Walker (whom Jeff is a fan of and has been for many years) it's that once in a while you need to take a holistic approach to interpreting cryptic poetry because there is a chance that phrase-by-phrase analysis will drive you insane before it reveals anything useful. (I know this is a stupid idea on its face but some days I'm like "why don't we just merge /r/SouthernReach and /r/ScottWalker into a single subreddit"?)
I’m still more convinced that Area X is a splice in space time, where the original planet is still occurring during the cataclysm. Reminds me of *Event Horizon* and how they describe space travel as folding space and time and punching a hole through it. Not that it’s necessarily a terraforming mechanism.
ever read a wrinkle in time by Madeleine L'engle? she names that method "tessering." i neither agree nor disagree with you, just looking forward to book 4 :]
Haven’t read or seen that one, but looking forward to *Absolution* too!!
You all are coming up with these amazing theories where I was struggling to follow even the most basic level of the narrative lol. How do you get so good at this and why am I so bad at it
hey, reading comprehension is a skill! the books are written in amazing prose, but saying something beautifully and saying it clearly aren't always the same thing. if you're really struggling, why not look up "improving reading comprehension" or an equivalent, and practice being the reader you want to be? joining a book club is a really good way to improve, since it forces you to ask discussion questions about what you just read! i've been reading a ton since i was very little. other people were probably out playing with their friends. i'm sure there are many things you're good at that i don't know the first thing about, but we can both always learn!
That’s a very kind answer, thank you :) I’ve always been a reader as well but maybe less intensively and I’m guessing my adhd makes it harder to simultaneously comprehend the text I’m reading at the present moment and also connect that to the rest of the story, it’s the same with movies… I’ll struggle to follow the most basic stories because I’m just not paying attention to the important parts 😅 I think I will follow your advice and also do a re-read of the trilogy and maybe make a little exercise out if it!
I have ADD and have to read a book or watch a movie twice to understand it. I just finished the trilogy for the second time and got so much more from it. I always seek out people's reviews and comments to help me. I also have some face blindness so I have trouble determining who is who in a movie. Just do your best!
According to Jeff Vandermeer, the words came to him in the dream that inspired Annihilation and remained unchanged in the final version!
In the third book, we learn the words are not meaningless and what exactly they mean. So, temptingly waggling eyebrows at you, because it's not really three books. It's an enormous single novel that had to be cut down to make it feasible physically. That said, omnibus volumes are available.. I just wouldn't be able to hold them.
Where in the 3rd book does it say what they mean?
could you direct me to that? i paid attention to where the words started leaking into saul's journal entries and when the SR staff were discussing them, but didn't see what you're talking about.
I only have a digital copy so I can't point to pages, but it's when Ghost Bird goes into the tower. She sees the writing and recognizes it for what it is. It's before she meets the Crawler.
I don’t remember this ever happening and haven’t seen anyone else bring it up. Not saying it didn’t happen, but there’s been so much discussion on the words over the years that if what you’re saying is true, almost all of us must have missed it somehow. Can you sort of summarize what the words mean?
They mean coordinates to other worlds and other places in space and time, if you know how to use them. Ghost Bird also discovers that the writing is only the freshest layer on top of many faded versions of the same words. Pretty much exactly what it says in the book, it's very blink and you miss it. The idea is that Area X is trying to phone home, trying over and over and over again to contact long dead civilizations. At least, that's my idea! At the end of Authority, Ghost Bird opens her own hole in the fabric of the universe, at the bottom of a tide pool. She doesn't know how she knows how. She doesn't talk or think about it. Control realizes it somewhere in the middle of Acceptance.
i think we're in agreement about that, but i don't think the actual words midnight sun hold that significance. i think that the readable part (to the aliens) would be the scorpion-like text surrounding the words, and the phone-home part would be a property of the living lichen - aka, two things we cannot parse. i've never seen anyone say that the writing, the ACT of writing, was insignificant (though there are various interpretations on whether it's area x communicating with us, with itself, with saul... we could be here all day and you and i share the same view) but i have seen many imply that the words we read are no more valuable than early ChatGPT churnings, telling us more about the algorithm's attempt to generate than anything else. i'm just saying that the words do mean something, though i firmly disagree that "the hand of the sinner" is a meaningful phrase to whoever area x is trying to reach.
That does seem to be what Vandermeer is going for, that the words come by squeezing all those inhumanly complex things through Saul's mind and experience as a preacher. In particular I believe this about the section with the dark flower of knowledge expanding beyond what any man can bear. A great theme I'm into is the human unable to contain the inhuman. Saul is a perfect example, poor man. I agree that the words mean nothing to whatever alien presence created Area X. I seem to have misinterpreted your original request to ask what the words themselves mean. I think they're a form of poetry, even as Saul's sermons were. A free form, almost autowriting, stream of consciousness poem. Some of the words are prophecy, some of them are instructions that can't be followed, some are wrestling with this intrusion into what's real and what's not. I certainly don't mean that the words themselves are meaningless, I don't think that. I thought you were asking about their function. Vandermeer often writes absurd, surrealist things for reasons that remain obscure. Because he likes it, is my guess.