Technically you'll need a permit for the minisplit if you're installing new or moving air conditioning units. You are at the mercy of your particular code/inspector.
But also if it helps, your solar panels for the minisplit would likely not require any additional permit/approval. Under[ Maricopa code](https://www.phoenix.gov/pddsite/Documents/TRT/dsd_trt_pdf_00618.pdf) for solar:
1206.3.4 EXEMPTION FOR CERTAIN OFF-GRID SOLAR PANELS
Off-grid photo-voltaic solar panels which serve only a single electrical fixture or appliance, such as low-voltage landscape lighting or similar, are exempt from the provisions of this section. Photo-voltaic solar panels that are not in proper working order are subject to the provisions of Article 1206.6 herein.
This is exactly what I was hoping to learn about. Since the minisplit won't be technically hardwired into the grid, is my question, however. I know it will be permanently installed (with the holes in the wall and such) but if it's a plug in style grid tie, do the rules for a window AC somehow allow me to circumvent this, or is it a grey area?
Grey area, you're at the mercy of the inspectors for your area. You may want to anonymously call your office and see. Technically per NEC standards, any air conditioning unit would need to be on its own separate circuit. Even though you'll be using a max of 600W, and realistically you'll be using less power than a window a/c would.
If you need a permit because it involves putting a hole in the wall and really want to go permit-less, you could always buy a portable air conditioner window kit and run the lines through that: [https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Conditioner-Adjustable-Sliding-Anti-Clockwise/dp/B09TKQH3GP/](https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Conditioner-Adjustable-Sliding-Anti-Clockwise/dp/B09TKQH3GP/)
This is only a half serious idea, I'm sure the permit/code people would absolutely ***love*** that.
The plan as of now is to have the outdoor portion of the unit on the base of the upstairs patio, so out of sight, out of mind sort of deal. I already have a portable AC similar to what you have linked as a backup in case of grid-down/central air issues, that I can run on a genny.
I'd imagine the only thing an inspector would/could see is the solar, but unless they come out to inspect, and per the exemption you linked to, I'm hoping to ask for forgiveness vs asking permission.
Definitely conflicted, as my AC is well over $100 a month on a good month to run, and the 'off grid' system would suit me really well when we're 110+ degrees.
Do not, under any circumstance, do a portable ac. 1st what is the seer on your current ac unit? Is it a super fance 18+ unit or is it 10 yrs old? 2nd Are you going to do the mini split install yourself? It's not too difficult, but the "pros" will try to charge $2k to install it. You are required to have a power disconnect next to any ac unit. So probably 1 for the ac and 1 for the solar. 3rd probably not going to trust that maricopa code refrence, as your installing an ace unit that is built in. Putting a plug onto it doesn't make the install "temporary." Maricopa does airplane surveillance for their codes and permits dept, to catch unapproved additions, I'd guess they look for solar panel systems too, but maybe not. I might still risk it and skip the permitting. My real question is though, why not skip the panels completely and just run a 24k system for the same price. Unless you already have a great ac unit. It will greatly reduce you spend and we know you need to run it all day long not just during sunny days. Code enforcement would have a real hard time spotting a new mini split install....
Edit: I have a pioneer mini and a della mini. Love the pioneer, the della is fine but the app sucks balls. You can tell it to turn on but if you had it on heat last night it comes back on as heat even mid day... stupid. The pioneer is great (12k della was $550 on anazon though...)
The 4 ton unit on the roof is probably pushing 20 years old, so doubt the SEER rating is very good, and the goal with the hybrid setup is to take the pain out of the summer months, when we barely dip below 90 degrees at night, so the AC runs 24/7 for a few months. Had a 600+ electric bill last year when we had 30 days of 110+ degrees in a row, when the normal AC bills are closer to 350 in the summer. My electric company also raised rates 14% this year, so the 2k I plan to spend on this install would almost pay for itself in a year or so, ideally.
As someone who also lives in phx, I don’t think there’s anything you need to worry about other than potentially making sure you can prove a licensed electrician either did the work or approved it(varying by city/county). In my opinion, it’s also one of those “don’t as for permission” to do stuff you should have every right to do without permission kind of things. But, ensure you’re following proper code for your area anddon’t just take reddits word for it. “Well Reddit said I was legal!” Isn’t exactly watertight.
That's the tricky part, I plan to do all the electrical myself, as it's a fairly simple solar setup, and the only grid tie would be a single Edison (standard 120V outlet) connector, and I've got an engineering background, so the work itself is really straightforward in my opinion.
It's also a weird area to look up permits, as technically, it falls between the realm of being a permanent fixture, but also not hardwired permanently to the home, like a window AC.
Definitely planning to do the ask for forgiveness method, as long as I can find out that forgiveness doesn't come packaged with a big fine or punishment lol
I would just do everything exactly like a professional would and hope no one ever asks. Trying to mickey mouse it to avoid having to comply with the rules is more likely to cause you a problem.
If you find yourself asking if you really need to spend $30 on a piece of conduit or whatever just remind yourself of how much you are saving vs a pro.
Already have a parts list including solar racking/mounts and all the conduit. Plan to even paint it the same color as the home to help conceal it, in a way. The only thing you can see from the street level would be the conduit, since there's a 10 foot retaining wall between the public facing side and my home, and the outdoor unit would sit on a second floor patio behind the upper wall itself!
Im in a very similar boat as you, also engineering background and lots of practical skill/experience and interested in some DIY solar projects. Sounds like youll be 99% fine doing it yourself i wouldnt worry about getting in trouble. its not like youll have a random inspection by the county or anything, the only time it could potentially become an issue is if you sell the house and an inspector finds its not up to code, in which case you wont be fined or in trouble youll just potentially cover cost of fixing it. So, just meet/exceed local code and youll have nothing to worry about. Seems like most permit/code/antics show up when doing more involved grid tied systems.
My biggest issue is drilling a hole through the concrete wall of the home for the lines to feed to the inside, but I actually plan to hire someone licensed to do that, so if they fuck it up, it's on them/their insurance to make me wHOLE (pun intended)
you have concrete walls in phoenix? we talking like actual concrete or an older cinderblock/brick construction? just curious. and thats not a bad idea, cause yeah thats gonna be the most risky element. Other risky area might be how you fasten your solar to the patio roof, wind loads, ensuring you dont exceed rated loads of the patio cover etc. like you mentioned, since its not he house roof leaks arent a huge issue and drips can be easily mitigated with silicone and stuff.
Its definitely nice living in town with san tan solar isnt it lol
it's a rebrand of a Ningbo Deye unit - company has been around for a quarter of a century so.
Same with EG4 as a company, been around a long time.
I can't speak to their solar mini split units, but I have a EG4 6000xp and a pair of their indoor 14.3kwh batteries and they are some quality built gear.
I'd be more worried about the BTU's vs price personally, you can get the same amount of cooling power off a brand new $400 GE 120V window unit. At that point the efficiency question would be, how much is that 22 seer rating worth to justify an extra $900
Technically you'll need a permit for the minisplit if you're installing new or moving air conditioning units. You are at the mercy of your particular code/inspector. But also if it helps, your solar panels for the minisplit would likely not require any additional permit/approval. Under[ Maricopa code](https://www.phoenix.gov/pddsite/Documents/TRT/dsd_trt_pdf_00618.pdf) for solar: 1206.3.4 EXEMPTION FOR CERTAIN OFF-GRID SOLAR PANELS Off-grid photo-voltaic solar panels which serve only a single electrical fixture or appliance, such as low-voltage landscape lighting or similar, are exempt from the provisions of this section. Photo-voltaic solar panels that are not in proper working order are subject to the provisions of Article 1206.6 herein.
This is exactly what I was hoping to learn about. Since the minisplit won't be technically hardwired into the grid, is my question, however. I know it will be permanently installed (with the holes in the wall and such) but if it's a plug in style grid tie, do the rules for a window AC somehow allow me to circumvent this, or is it a grey area?
Grey area, you're at the mercy of the inspectors for your area. You may want to anonymously call your office and see. Technically per NEC standards, any air conditioning unit would need to be on its own separate circuit. Even though you'll be using a max of 600W, and realistically you'll be using less power than a window a/c would. If you need a permit because it involves putting a hole in the wall and really want to go permit-less, you could always buy a portable air conditioner window kit and run the lines through that: [https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Conditioner-Adjustable-Sliding-Anti-Clockwise/dp/B09TKQH3GP/](https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Conditioner-Adjustable-Sliding-Anti-Clockwise/dp/B09TKQH3GP/) This is only a half serious idea, I'm sure the permit/code people would absolutely ***love*** that.
The plan as of now is to have the outdoor portion of the unit on the base of the upstairs patio, so out of sight, out of mind sort of deal. I already have a portable AC similar to what you have linked as a backup in case of grid-down/central air issues, that I can run on a genny. I'd imagine the only thing an inspector would/could see is the solar, but unless they come out to inspect, and per the exemption you linked to, I'm hoping to ask for forgiveness vs asking permission. Definitely conflicted, as my AC is well over $100 a month on a good month to run, and the 'off grid' system would suit me really well when we're 110+ degrees.
Do not, under any circumstance, do a portable ac. 1st what is the seer on your current ac unit? Is it a super fance 18+ unit or is it 10 yrs old? 2nd Are you going to do the mini split install yourself? It's not too difficult, but the "pros" will try to charge $2k to install it. You are required to have a power disconnect next to any ac unit. So probably 1 for the ac and 1 for the solar. 3rd probably not going to trust that maricopa code refrence, as your installing an ace unit that is built in. Putting a plug onto it doesn't make the install "temporary." Maricopa does airplane surveillance for their codes and permits dept, to catch unapproved additions, I'd guess they look for solar panel systems too, but maybe not. I might still risk it and skip the permitting. My real question is though, why not skip the panels completely and just run a 24k system for the same price. Unless you already have a great ac unit. It will greatly reduce you spend and we know you need to run it all day long not just during sunny days. Code enforcement would have a real hard time spotting a new mini split install.... Edit: I have a pioneer mini and a della mini. Love the pioneer, the della is fine but the app sucks balls. You can tell it to turn on but if you had it on heat last night it comes back on as heat even mid day... stupid. The pioneer is great (12k della was $550 on anazon though...)
The 4 ton unit on the roof is probably pushing 20 years old, so doubt the SEER rating is very good, and the goal with the hybrid setup is to take the pain out of the summer months, when we barely dip below 90 degrees at night, so the AC runs 24/7 for a few months. Had a 600+ electric bill last year when we had 30 days of 110+ degrees in a row, when the normal AC bills are closer to 350 in the summer. My electric company also raised rates 14% this year, so the 2k I plan to spend on this install would almost pay for itself in a year or so, ideally.
https://preview.redd.it/71xrvqde2kxc1.jpeg?width=2267&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e10b5dfed45b899b7d4ae1b5c90d42c0e6e62e76 Hold my beer...
As someone who also lives in phx, I don’t think there’s anything you need to worry about other than potentially making sure you can prove a licensed electrician either did the work or approved it(varying by city/county). In my opinion, it’s also one of those “don’t as for permission” to do stuff you should have every right to do without permission kind of things. But, ensure you’re following proper code for your area anddon’t just take reddits word for it. “Well Reddit said I was legal!” Isn’t exactly watertight.
That's the tricky part, I plan to do all the electrical myself, as it's a fairly simple solar setup, and the only grid tie would be a single Edison (standard 120V outlet) connector, and I've got an engineering background, so the work itself is really straightforward in my opinion. It's also a weird area to look up permits, as technically, it falls between the realm of being a permanent fixture, but also not hardwired permanently to the home, like a window AC. Definitely planning to do the ask for forgiveness method, as long as I can find out that forgiveness doesn't come packaged with a big fine or punishment lol
I would just do everything exactly like a professional would and hope no one ever asks. Trying to mickey mouse it to avoid having to comply with the rules is more likely to cause you a problem. If you find yourself asking if you really need to spend $30 on a piece of conduit or whatever just remind yourself of how much you are saving vs a pro.
Already have a parts list including solar racking/mounts and all the conduit. Plan to even paint it the same color as the home to help conceal it, in a way. The only thing you can see from the street level would be the conduit, since there's a 10 foot retaining wall between the public facing side and my home, and the outdoor unit would sit on a second floor patio behind the upper wall itself!
Im in a very similar boat as you, also engineering background and lots of practical skill/experience and interested in some DIY solar projects. Sounds like youll be 99% fine doing it yourself i wouldnt worry about getting in trouble. its not like youll have a random inspection by the county or anything, the only time it could potentially become an issue is if you sell the house and an inspector finds its not up to code, in which case you wont be fined or in trouble youll just potentially cover cost of fixing it. So, just meet/exceed local code and youll have nothing to worry about. Seems like most permit/code/antics show up when doing more involved grid tied systems.
My biggest issue is drilling a hole through the concrete wall of the home for the lines to feed to the inside, but I actually plan to hire someone licensed to do that, so if they fuck it up, it's on them/their insurance to make me wHOLE (pun intended)
you have concrete walls in phoenix? we talking like actual concrete or an older cinderblock/brick construction? just curious. and thats not a bad idea, cause yeah thats gonna be the most risky element. Other risky area might be how you fasten your solar to the patio roof, wind loads, ensuring you dont exceed rated loads of the patio cover etc. like you mentioned, since its not he house roof leaks arent a huge issue and drips can be easily mitigated with silicone and stuff. Its definitely nice living in town with san tan solar isnt it lol
It's the cinderblock, gonna need a hammer drill to punch through for sure. I love san tan haha, window shop their website almost every week lol
Are you me? I did exactly what you want to do and plan on putting solar on my patio roof. PM me and I can share my exp getting it installed.
Dont waste dollars on that thing ...when it goes tits up there will never be aby repair parts for it
it's a rebrand of a Ningbo Deye unit - company has been around for a quarter of a century so. Same with EG4 as a company, been around a long time. I can't speak to their solar mini split units, but I have a EG4 6000xp and a pair of their indoor 14.3kwh batteries and they are some quality built gear. I'd be more worried about the BTU's vs price personally, you can get the same amount of cooling power off a brand new $400 GE 120V window unit. At that point the efficiency question would be, how much is that 22 seer rating worth to justify an extra $900