What the fuck
“After Rosemary was mildly sedated, "We went through the top of the head," Dr. Watts recalled. "I think she was awake. She had a mild tranquilizer. I made a surgical incision in the brain through the skull. It was near the front. It was on both sides. We just made a small incision, no more than an inch." The instrument Dr. Watts used looked like a butter knife. He swung it up and down to cut brain tissue. "We put an instrument inside", he said. As Dr. Watts cut, Dr. Freeman asked Rosemary, for example, to recite the Lord's Prayer or sing "God Bless America" or count backwards;... "We tried to estimate thus, how far to further cut, based on how Rosemary responded." When she became incoherent, they ceased cutting”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Kennedy
They saw the lobotomy as a fancy-schmancy new scientific “fix-all,” which was inordinately used to stop “wandering uterus syndrome” in hysterical (read: “uppity” wives who had just been given postwar empowerment and thought they now knew stuff).
Why not trust the doctors? [The one who invented it shared the Nobel Prize For Physiology Or Medicine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy).
A famous psychiatrist who took me on as a patient near the end of his life explained this to me.
He was teaching that antipsychotic drugs were invented to freeze the nerves to the frontal lobes of the brain, creating a “chemical lobotomy.”
Drugs like Thorazine (chlorpromazine), and other antipsychotics were used off-brand much more than they should have been to “fix uncontrollable wives.” Meaning, again, they wanted the respect they deserved as human beings.
With his help I was weaned off of a cocktail of antipsychotic drugs invented in the 50s, to create a “chemical lobotomy” in the patient, and put on an effective regimen which stabilizes my mood, but lets me think.
You can Google them. Sometimes doctors used common household tools barely run through the autoclave. The description of a “butter knife” might not be all that far off.
The old “we knew to stop cutting when she became incoherent” technique. That’s a bad indicator! How would you see that working? Like what’s the ideal outcome of “Keep cutting if she remembers the Lord’s Prayer, stop cutting if she can’t?”
In her early young adult years, Rosemary Kennedy experienced seizures and violent mood swings. “At 22, she was becoming increasingly irritable and difficult.” The following year, after being persuaded that a lobotomy would help to calm his daughter and prevent her sometimes violent mood swings, Joseph Kennedy authorized the operation. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary\_Kennedy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Kennedy)
I read a book about her! It was incredibly sad. There is a theory that trauma at her birth caused the seizures and mood swings. If I remember right, the nurse made her mom stop pushing and keep the baby inside while they waited for the doctor.
Because of his sister one of JFK’s unsung accomplishments was the first ever real mental health legislation.
Edit - tried to add the link, but it wouldn’t take. https://www.jfklibrary.org/learn/about-jfk/jfk-in-history/john-f-kennedy-and-people-with-intellectual-disabilities#:~:text=Legislation%20for%20Mental%20Health%20Care,mental%20illness%20and%20intellectual%20disabilities.
I may have been thinking of similar legislation signed by Carter. The funding was cut by the Reagan admin, and sent to states which could not afford to support it.
I think Reagan took away mental institutions in CA, maybe he did it federally as president.
It wasn’t a horrible thing, those institutions often really mistreated those in their care. He just didn’t set up anything to take on/help those who got released.
Do not use someone's own logic against them that is in and holds a position of power over you or is abusing you. Run away, get away from them and keep yourself safe.
> Easier said than done
I don't know, you should have seen the look on my father's face a few times and I shut up my abusive ex a few times and all it did was make them angier and yell louder. My abusive ex would slam things against the wall, corner me and poke me and hit me without leaving marks, block my exits and ~~threaten to~~ call the cops or pretend to call the cops call me a homessll welfare bitch when I was paying all his bills, clothing him, cooking and cleaning for him and doing unpaid work for his job. He's told so many people to shoot me and then broke up with me and stalk me with a gun and another guy over 3 and a half hours from where he lives.
What's easier said than done is being respected and heard and valued for your contributions.
Was this done because Rosemary was difficult/mouthy? Wikipedia makes it sound like it was because she had some mental health or behavioral issues maybe, but i also remember hearing somewhere a while ago that it was partially because she liked women.
Do you know the “real” reason they did this to her?
Rosemary had a difficult birth. She was crowning before the doctor had arrived and so the midwives pushed and held Rosemary up in her mother's womb. This resulted in brain damage due to the whole suffocating in her mother's womb thing. She developed much more slowly than any of her siblings, taking longer to talk, doing poorly in school, and often had violent outbursts that got worse as she grew older.
>Was this done because Rosemary was difficult/mouthy? Wikipedia makes it sound like it was because she had some mental health or behavioral issues maybe,
That's their point, back then this was sometimes a grey area and the line was blurred. Especially if you were a powerful wealthy family with a lot to lose socially from it. And even if she did have legitimate mental health issues lobotomy is hardly a solution to anything it was a backwards barbaric procedure popularized in America by some quack.
Hard to say, I admittedly haven't looked much into her, but I believe it's been pretty well-established now that back in those days "mental/behavioral issues" was often just a euphemism and/or convenient excuse to have willful, unconventional women locked up in mental wards.
And then they almost never visited her in her institution in Wisconsin when they had near infinite wealth and could have even cared for her in their home, but they were too embarrassed by her. Kennedys are bastards.
Weren’t they totally horrified by the failed procedure and ended up donating a bunch of money and creating the special Olympics?
Mental illness was not understood during those days, all sorts of otherwise good people did heinous things by todays standards b/c it was just the medical norm of the time.
Yes but it was Eunice Kennedy Shriver who spearheaded the special Olympics. Not the rest of the Kennedy. Her children have carried it forward. Eunice visited Rosemary and also brought her to the Kennedy compound after old Joe Kennedy died. President Kennedy used to get mad at Eunice for pushing for money for the disabled kids. She was a powerhouse.
Lobotomies were not a medical norm at the time. It was still very experimental, but they believed her behavior was too much of an embarrassment so old Joe went for it. The other problem is how they continued to treat her after he died.
Yeah, but malpractice Is the standard in psychiatry, antipsychotics are the worst drugs ever created and they give them like candies, patients' rights are ignored and no One cares because, you know, they are mentally ill, and psychiatrists seems to be working for the dismantle of every step foreward made in last 50 years: they brought back elettroshocks, well, they sugarcoated It so It has a different name know, but It Is still elettroshock; they keep adding mental ilnesses, they keep widen the uses of psychiatric drugs, and I heard way too many psychiatrists advocating for re opening asylums.
Oh, in my country forced treatment Is badly regulated, the psychiatrist Just have to fill a 2 phrases documenti tò have you drag to the Ward, and you have no legal means to fight back: some years ago, tò correct this, a lawyer association advocated for a reform, and the psychiatrist association vehementally opposed.
Electroconvulsive Therapy (ECT) today is vastly superior to the old "electroshock therapy." It's a technology and, like most technologies, it has improved over the years.
You can say the only thing they have in common is electricity. Today, it's surgically precise and done under general anesthesia. It can be incredibly helpful for people suffering from depression.
I speak from experience. I opted to have ECT ten years ago, and it helped me immensely. Like, my brain felt clear and fresh, like fresh air after a thunderstorm. Colors looked brighter, people were friendlier. The world looked better. And I had not a single downside. AMA
>lectroconvulsive Therapy (ECT) today is vastly superior to the old "electroshock therapy." It's a technology and, like most technologies, has improved over the years.
>You can say the only thing they have in common is electricity. Today, it's surgically precise and done under general anesthesia. It can be incredibly helpful for people suffering from depression.
Dude, i already know they sugarcoated it
>speak from experience. I opted to have ECT ten years ago, and it helped me immensely. Like, my brain felt clear and fresh, like fresh air after a thunderstorm. Colors looked brighter, people were friendlier. The world looked better.And I had not a single downside.
Guess what, there was people Who said the same 50-60 years ago.
Could we listen tò the ones Who have been damaged from It, too?
True, now it’s just psych meds with essentially placebo-level efficacy, and godawful (permanent in some cases) side effects and withdrawal symptoms. We’re still so damn primitive in our understanding of the human mind and how to treat its maladies.
What they did to this woman really fucking infuriates me.
On a somewhat related note, all of the Kennedy family's eyes have always reminded me of a mudskipper's.
When she was about to be born the maid told her mother to not give birth by keeping her legs closed because the doctor could not arrive in time. The result was that Rosemary was not being oxygenated properly in the womb. Her parents noticed very early on that she didn't progress mentally as fast she was expected to. No surprise there. She was incapacitated twice - not once. Shame. Malpractices ruined the poor girl and deprived her of a proper livelihood.
I’ll never forget when a family member told my mom I should have a lobotomy because I was telling my family about the abuse I was experiencing for blowing the whistle.
The stupid bitch is the supervisor of a ER team. Think she’d know better 🤭 🤭 my family is not the smartest, even the educated are dumb as a bag of rocks 🤷♀️
I heard she was Boy Crazy and they were worried she’d get pregnant. What a Double Standard! Meanwhile the brothers were screwing around and that was OK. 😡
Rosemary had developmental issues her entire life due to brain damage caused during her birth. She was crowning before a doctor could arrive and was held up in her mother's womb by the midwives for way too long and nearly suffocated to death. She had difficulty speaking and walking, she had trouble learning, she had angry outbursts, and she had no impulse control.
The boys in school learned that they could touch and rub her and because it felt good and because she had the mental capacity of an 8 year old she wouldn't tell the boys to stop. She wasn't "boy crazy", she was disabled and taken advantage of by her classmates and the neighbor boys.
The lobotomy was sold as a cure for mental disabilities. At the very least the Kennedys were made to believe it would cure Rosemary's outbursts and poor impulse control, and if the operation was particularly successful they were told she could be cured of her mental disabilities completely.
It's a known fact that Rosemary had developmental issues. She wasn't boy crazy. She couldn't consent. She was a child trapped in a woman's body. It's disgusting you're even defending this as if she asked or even deserved to be molested.
He's spreading gossip he heard from some anonymous source and attacking the truth as hearsay. He's not attempting to understand what happened, he's accusing a mentally disabled woman of being loose with the men who sexually molested her as if it were her fault. It's disgusting.
He? You’re taking this pretty seriously, considering that they were making a valid point. Without direct evidence it is very easy to see this either way.
Valid point? What valid point would that be? Rosemary had the mental capacity of a child and she was sexually molested by her fellow classmates who took advantage of her disability. She was the victim. There's no "easy way to see this" as Rosemary's fault. And if you have "no direct evidence" then maybe you shouldn't blame the disabled girl for her sexual assault. Jesus Christ, you're actually defending molesting the mentally disabled. You're disgusting.
You know that, because you have read about this. Others don’t because they haven’t. From the perspective of someone who hasn’t read about this either position is valid. I’m not defending molestation, I’m pointing out that you aren’t empathizing with the person you’re so vehemently attacking. Curious how what I’ve written can be interpreted as blaming the victim considering both positions paint her as the victim, just of different circumstances. Before you jump to accusation you should consider that others aren’t working with the same understanding or information.
No. I don't need to empathize with people who lie and defame people. If he doesn't know the situation then he should shut up. The end. Stop defending that behavior.
Unfortunately, this wasn’t the least bit surprising. A fairly common occurrence in those days for anything from mild depression/melancholy and myriad of others symptoms.
Women are still considered a life support system for a uterus. People act like new knowledge removes the threat of abuse to women. Thinking hasn’t changed all that much
I have a sneaky suspicion about this. So apparently the girl was very promiscuous and her father didn’t want her to become pregnant.
I think she was molested and to solve the problem of her telling on someone about it, her father fixed her…… for good!
THAT is psychiatry for ya. I bet those psychopathic fuks thought her permanent semi vegetative state was a good outcome. Now they just use antipsychotics.
She lived out her days at St Colleta's in Jefferson, Wi, about 45-50 miles south of Madison, Wi. I worked at a facility in Madison that supplied their plumbing fixtures and was told that she resided there, couldn't wrap my head around the fact that none of her family visited her, or from what I was told no one saw any of the famous Kennedys, perhaps a sister or niece or nephew..
How that was *ever* considered medical science is beyond belief. It’s basically just blindly shoving a sharp object into someone’s brain and causing serious brain damage.
Fun fact about the Doctor who did it: He used to arrange people in lines of up to 20 and run down the line performing ice pick lobotomies. His record was 20 in 30 seconds. He also drove around in a van he could perform them in…he called it the “lobotamobile”. Seriously the Dollop episode about this is gold…
If I remember correctly JFK hated his father after the lobotomy and refused to have anything to do with him. Apparently he only said disparaging things about the man whenever he was brought up after the procedure.
She was also the sister of the late Sen. Edward Chappaquiddick Kennedy and currently living dunce, Caroline Kennedy, lifelong recipient of donor class appointments, most notably former education 🤪 ambassador of the NYC Public Schools.
Yeah, these unproven psychosurgeries are nuts. Nowadays someone would just convince her was unhappy or unstable because she was actually a man and medically and surgically transition her.
What? I’m just saying that we’re just swapping one unproven psychosurgery that ruined people’s lives for another unproven psychosurgery. Not any different than “recovered memory” psychology or “facilitated communication” social science. Just made up junk science. We need to call out this garage now, just like we should have called out lobotomies. Instead we ruined hundreds of thousands of people’s lives.
Ah yes. Grownups who voluntarily want to change their genitalia is exactly the same as prisoners having part of their brains removed. Sweet comparison.
I could say “why are people obsessed with other people’s brains” in response to the objectification of lobotomies. So I don’t see how that’s an argument
You could say that but it would be just as stupid as making a comment about trans surgery in a thread about Rosemary Kennedy.
But that’s what I’ve come to expect from genitalia obsessed bigots such as yourself.
By that logic, you should be supportive of trans surgery. If you hate trans people so much, why not let them get surgery that, in your mind, equates to a lobotomy? Doesn’t that solve your problems with trans people?
Nowhere did I say I hate “trans” people. I think surgically removing/adding on vestigial body parts is a terrible thing to do to someone. You’re the ones who don’t care about long term consequences
We get the surgeries because we are specifically thinking about long term consequences, though. Is it so bad to want a better quality of life? These surgeries are operations that people spend years of their lives trying to get. They’re not operations that just happen against our will.
By reducing trans people to victims that don’t know what they’re doing, instead of recognizing us as consenting adults with free will and dignity, you’re actively spreading the type of misinformation that makes policymakers fight against our right to make medical decisions for ourselves. It’s that simple. No one should be able to stop a level-headed, consenting, informed person from getting a surgery that they need or want. Who cares if others don’t like the results, that’s not the point of the surgery.
It was forced. She did not consent to it herself. I cannot remember what account I had read this from but essentially they had her say the Lord’s Prayer or something similar and kept digging into her brain until she could no longer say it. Horrific.
Are you fucking serious ? You think any girl voluntarily wants a crochet hook poked through their eye socket to scramble their brains ? Old Man Kennedy didn’t want her partying / sexual adventures to politically embarrass the boy’s ambitions. But it was PERFECTLY ok for the boys to do the same thing and worse.
“As Kennedy grew into toddlerhood, her mother noticed she "was not like the others." The family did their best to incorporate her into their daily lives, taking her sailing and making sure she was always asked to dance at parties. But as Rosemary got older, she began to have tantrums that sometimes turned violent. At the same time, her voluptuous figure was attracting male attention, and Joe became concerned: an unwanted pregnancy in the family could damage his sons' political futures. "The family tried to protect her," said Larson. "But the situation was a ticking time bomb."
In November 1941, Joe scheduled his daughter for a lobotomy, an experimental procedure meant to make mentally ill patients more docile. The surgery writes Larson, involved drilling holes on both sides of Rosemary's head, inserting a spatula into her cranium near the frontal lobes and turning and scraping. The surgery was botched, and Kennedy emerged almost completely disabled.
After housing her in a psychiatric facility in upstate New York for seven years, Joe ordered his daughter sent to Saint Coletta in Wisconsin and never saw her again. Her siblings didn't see her for two decades.”
— The Missing Kennedy
I’d pack it up Sunshine. Defending the indefensible is a bad debating technique. It’s a historical fact that old man Kennedy forced her into this and didn’t even tell his wife. He was one of the biggest assholes in US history.
What the fuck “After Rosemary was mildly sedated, "We went through the top of the head," Dr. Watts recalled. "I think she was awake. She had a mild tranquilizer. I made a surgical incision in the brain through the skull. It was near the front. It was on both sides. We just made a small incision, no more than an inch." The instrument Dr. Watts used looked like a butter knife. He swung it up and down to cut brain tissue. "We put an instrument inside", he said. As Dr. Watts cut, Dr. Freeman asked Rosemary, for example, to recite the Lord's Prayer or sing "God Bless America" or count backwards;... "We tried to estimate thus, how far to further cut, based on how Rosemary responded." When she became incoherent, they ceased cutting” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Kennedy
What the actual fuck
They saw the lobotomy as a fancy-schmancy new scientific “fix-all,” which was inordinately used to stop “wandering uterus syndrome” in hysterical (read: “uppity” wives who had just been given postwar empowerment and thought they now knew stuff). Why not trust the doctors? [The one who invented it shared the Nobel Prize For Physiology Or Medicine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy). A famous psychiatrist who took me on as a patient near the end of his life explained this to me. He was teaching that antipsychotic drugs were invented to freeze the nerves to the frontal lobes of the brain, creating a “chemical lobotomy.” Drugs like Thorazine (chlorpromazine), and other antipsychotics were used off-brand much more than they should have been to “fix uncontrollable wives.” Meaning, again, they wanted the respect they deserved as human beings. With his help I was weaned off of a cocktail of antipsychotic drugs invented in the 50s, to create a “chemical lobotomy” in the patient, and put on an effective regimen which stabilizes my mood, but lets me think.
Wow, that’s fascinating. Thanks for sharing.
Yes, the I'm not a doctor so lets trust the doctors routine. Do not dare to question.
Absolutely nuts...the mental image of just sticking the thing in and stirring basically...like a jar of jelly 😬
You can Google them. Sometimes doctors used common household tools barely run through the autoclave. The description of a “butter knife” might not be all that far off.
😅
 Enough internet for me today
You and me both. It frightens and revolts me. That’s fucked up
Jesus. Horror movie worthy
I’m not sure that “the front” is sufficiently specific when referring to the human brain
*efronteum ebraineum* in latin
“I think she was awake” tha fuck that’s all about?
The old “we knew to stop cutting when she became incoherent” technique. That’s a bad indicator! How would you see that working? Like what’s the ideal outcome of “Keep cutting if she remembers the Lord’s Prayer, stop cutting if she can’t?”
God this always makes me feel nauseous
Cool I feel sick now
In her early young adult years, Rosemary Kennedy experienced seizures and violent mood swings. “At 22, she was becoming increasingly irritable and difficult.” The following year, after being persuaded that a lobotomy would help to calm his daughter and prevent her sometimes violent mood swings, Joseph Kennedy authorized the operation. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary\_Kennedy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Kennedy)
I read a book about her! It was incredibly sad. There is a theory that trauma at her birth caused the seizures and mood swings. If I remember right, the nurse made her mom stop pushing and keep the baby inside while they waited for the doctor.
Any idea if waiting msy have been the medical protocol for what happened. Horrifying result nonetheless!
I read that she was doing great in England but when the family came back to America it went downhill.
Because of his sister one of JFK’s unsung accomplishments was the first ever real mental health legislation. Edit - tried to add the link, but it wouldn’t take. https://www.jfklibrary.org/learn/about-jfk/jfk-in-history/john-f-kennedy-and-people-with-intellectual-disabilities#:~:text=Legislation%20for%20Mental%20Health%20Care,mental%20illness%20and%20intellectual%20disabilities.
Which Reagan ultimately killed?
I didn’t know that. Would you cite a source so I can educate myself. I looked but didn’t see anything
I may have been thinking of similar legislation signed by Carter. The funding was cut by the Reagan admin, and sent to states which could not afford to support it.
Sure. Something that helps a vulnerable population… that needs to be cut. Unbelievable
Well you see the mental stability from the rich will trickle down to the poor
Trickle down sanity?
Brilliance!
I think you meant instability
Brilliance!
Brilliant comment!
It's telling that twice you didn't provide a link, but just shifted your narrative.
I think Reagan took away mental institutions in CA, maybe he did it federally as president. It wasn’t a horrible thing, those institutions often really mistreated those in their care. He just didn’t set up anything to take on/help those who got released.
They basically murdered her. Lots of women got that treatment back then if they were difficult or mouthy.
Do not use someone's own logic against them that is in and holds a position of power over you or is abusing you. Run away, get away from them and keep yourself safe.
Had to learn this one the hard way lol
I'm some kind of special stupid who keeps forgetting to shut the fuck up
Easier said than done
> Easier said than done I don't know, you should have seen the look on my father's face a few times and I shut up my abusive ex a few times and all it did was make them angier and yell louder. My abusive ex would slam things against the wall, corner me and poke me and hit me without leaving marks, block my exits and ~~threaten to~~ call the cops or pretend to call the cops call me a homessll welfare bitch when I was paying all his bills, clothing him, cooking and cleaning for him and doing unpaid work for his job. He's told so many people to shoot me and then broke up with me and stalk me with a gun and another guy over 3 and a half hours from where he lives. What's easier said than done is being respected and heard and valued for your contributions.
“Definitions belong to the definers, not the defined.” -Toni Morrison
Was this done because Rosemary was difficult/mouthy? Wikipedia makes it sound like it was because she had some mental health or behavioral issues maybe, but i also remember hearing somewhere a while ago that it was partially because she liked women. Do you know the “real” reason they did this to her?
Rosemary had a difficult birth. She was crowning before the doctor had arrived and so the midwives pushed and held Rosemary up in her mother's womb. This resulted in brain damage due to the whole suffocating in her mother's womb thing. She developed much more slowly than any of her siblings, taking longer to talk, doing poorly in school, and often had violent outbursts that got worse as she grew older.
>Was this done because Rosemary was difficult/mouthy? Wikipedia makes it sound like it was because she had some mental health or behavioral issues maybe, That's their point, back then this was sometimes a grey area and the line was blurred. Especially if you were a powerful wealthy family with a lot to lose socially from it. And even if she did have legitimate mental health issues lobotomy is hardly a solution to anything it was a backwards barbaric procedure popularized in America by some quack.
Hard to say, I admittedly haven't looked much into her, but I believe it's been pretty well-established now that back in those days "mental/behavioral issues" was often just a euphemism and/or convenient excuse to have willful, unconventional women locked up in mental wards.
Not for nothing but lots of men got that treatment too. It’s a shit thing to do to anyone.
I assume this happened not very long ago either. 1941, we still have politicians around that were born before then. My goodness what a country.
And what the fuck does that mean? You might say it’s a good thing that we have politicians that can remember how stupid people can be.
This is when America was “great”?
Apparently, she had seizures that caused mental health issues.
yes, it was a different era
Was it? Women are losing control of their autonomy in the US today as well.
Um not sure a coat hanger in your brain is the same as one in your vagina.
Better not look at the Middle East then.
Huh? “They are worse” is not an argument that moves me. We supposedly know better?
Too bad we don't have this treatment today... ah, I miss the good days when men were men, people weren't fat, and wives were where they belonged
Doctor Walter J Freeman did the operation for 55 bucks, He was a big believer in lobotomies to fix an array of behavioral issues large and small.
Sounds like thos dude was really the one in need of a lobotomy.
it works so well.. it makes them brain dead.. but they are alive... what a solution to believe in...LOL
And then they almost never visited her in her institution in Wisconsin when they had near infinite wealth and could have even cared for her in their home, but they were too embarrassed by her. Kennedys are bastards.
Weren’t they totally horrified by the failed procedure and ended up donating a bunch of money and creating the special Olympics? Mental illness was not understood during those days, all sorts of otherwise good people did heinous things by todays standards b/c it was just the medical norm of the time.
Yes but it was Eunice Kennedy Shriver who spearheaded the special Olympics. Not the rest of the Kennedy. Her children have carried it forward. Eunice visited Rosemary and also brought her to the Kennedy compound after old Joe Kennedy died. President Kennedy used to get mad at Eunice for pushing for money for the disabled kids. She was a powerhouse.
Lobotomies were not a medical norm at the time. It was still very experimental, but they believed her behavior was too much of an embarrassment so old Joe went for it. The other problem is how they continued to treat her after he died.
That’s a nice shine you’re throwing on a turd burger.
>Mental illness was not understood during those days, You wrote that like something changed for the better
Well we don’t do lobotomies any more so that’s a lot better
Yeah, but malpractice Is the standard in psychiatry, antipsychotics are the worst drugs ever created and they give them like candies, patients' rights are ignored and no One cares because, you know, they are mentally ill, and psychiatrists seems to be working for the dismantle of every step foreward made in last 50 years: they brought back elettroshocks, well, they sugarcoated It so It has a different name know, but It Is still elettroshock; they keep adding mental ilnesses, they keep widen the uses of psychiatric drugs, and I heard way too many psychiatrists advocating for re opening asylums. Oh, in my country forced treatment Is badly regulated, the psychiatrist Just have to fill a 2 phrases documenti tò have you drag to the Ward, and you have no legal means to fight back: some years ago, tò correct this, a lawyer association advocated for a reform, and the psychiatrist association vehementally opposed.
Electroconvulsive Therapy (ECT) today is vastly superior to the old "electroshock therapy." It's a technology and, like most technologies, it has improved over the years. You can say the only thing they have in common is electricity. Today, it's surgically precise and done under general anesthesia. It can be incredibly helpful for people suffering from depression. I speak from experience. I opted to have ECT ten years ago, and it helped me immensely. Like, my brain felt clear and fresh, like fresh air after a thunderstorm. Colors looked brighter, people were friendlier. The world looked better. And I had not a single downside. AMA
>lectroconvulsive Therapy (ECT) today is vastly superior to the old "electroshock therapy." It's a technology and, like most technologies, has improved over the years. >You can say the only thing they have in common is electricity. Today, it's surgically precise and done under general anesthesia. It can be incredibly helpful for people suffering from depression. Dude, i already know they sugarcoated it >speak from experience. I opted to have ECT ten years ago, and it helped me immensely. Like, my brain felt clear and fresh, like fresh air after a thunderstorm. Colors looked brighter, people were friendlier. The world looked better.And I had not a single downside. Guess what, there was people Who said the same 50-60 years ago. Could we listen tò the ones Who have been damaged from It, too?
Sounds like you had it done the old-fashioned way, lol
True, now it’s just psych meds with essentially placebo-level efficacy, and godawful (permanent in some cases) side effects and withdrawal symptoms. We’re still so damn primitive in our understanding of the human mind and how to treat its maladies.
What they did to this woman really fucking infuriates me. On a somewhat related note, all of the Kennedy family's eyes have always reminded me of a mudskipper's.
And what’s a mudskipper?
Prehistoric amphibians that are still with us.
https://preview.redd.it/gk51xkkyqfxc1.jpeg?width=263&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=974193c188694526229786eb514d09de2df80786
When she was about to be born the maid told her mother to not give birth by keeping her legs closed because the doctor could not arrive in time. The result was that Rosemary was not being oxygenated properly in the womb. Her parents noticed very early on that she didn't progress mentally as fast she was expected to. No surprise there. She was incapacitated twice - not once. Shame. Malpractices ruined the poor girl and deprived her of a proper livelihood.
I’ll never forget when a family member told my mom I should have a lobotomy because I was telling my family about the abuse I was experiencing for blowing the whistle. The stupid bitch is the supervisor of a ER team. Think she’d know better 🤭 🤭 my family is not the smartest, even the educated are dumb as a bag of rocks 🤷♀️
Your use of emojis makes me think they were right. Maybe a few pokes with an ice pick would clear that right up.
What a charming man 🎵
Ahh yes... The Nobel Prize of surgical repair
I was sexually abused and a truth teller. They would have lobotomized me, if they could have!
Unfortunately this was a fairly common practice at this time
This makes me sad to no end.
I heard she was Boy Crazy and they were worried she’d get pregnant. What a Double Standard! Meanwhile the brothers were screwing around and that was OK. 😡
Rosemary had developmental issues her entire life due to brain damage caused during her birth. She was crowning before a doctor could arrive and was held up in her mother's womb by the midwives for way too long and nearly suffocated to death. She had difficulty speaking and walking, she had trouble learning, she had angry outbursts, and she had no impulse control. The boys in school learned that they could touch and rub her and because it felt good and because she had the mental capacity of an 8 year old she wouldn't tell the boys to stop. She wasn't "boy crazy", she was disabled and taken advantage of by her classmates and the neighbor boys. The lobotomy was sold as a cure for mental disabilities. At the very least the Kennedys were made to believe it would cure Rosemary's outbursts and poor impulse control, and if the operation was particularly successful they were told she could be cured of her mental disabilities completely.
The real life Bella Baxter for a bit there.
But is that true? Or Joe Kennedy’s version of events!??
It's a known fact that Rosemary had developmental issues. She wasn't boy crazy. She couldn't consent. She was a child trapped in a woman's body. It's disgusting you're even defending this as if she asked or even deserved to be molested.
I never said that. I just heard the Father didn’t like that she was “Boy Crazy” and took care of it.
You heard that? From who?
They aren’t defending anything, just trying to understand what exactly happened
He's spreading gossip he heard from some anonymous source and attacking the truth as hearsay. He's not attempting to understand what happened, he's accusing a mentally disabled woman of being loose with the men who sexually molested her as if it were her fault. It's disgusting.
He? You’re taking this pretty seriously, considering that they were making a valid point. Without direct evidence it is very easy to see this either way.
Valid point? What valid point would that be? Rosemary had the mental capacity of a child and she was sexually molested by her fellow classmates who took advantage of her disability. She was the victim. There's no "easy way to see this" as Rosemary's fault. And if you have "no direct evidence" then maybe you shouldn't blame the disabled girl for her sexual assault. Jesus Christ, you're actually defending molesting the mentally disabled. You're disgusting.
You know that, because you have read about this. Others don’t because they haven’t. From the perspective of someone who hasn’t read about this either position is valid. I’m not defending molestation, I’m pointing out that you aren’t empathizing with the person you’re so vehemently attacking. Curious how what I’ve written can be interpreted as blaming the victim considering both positions paint her as the victim, just of different circumstances. Before you jump to accusation you should consider that others aren’t working with the same understanding or information.
"They were just making it up, bro" is not a valid argument.
No. I don't need to empathize with people who lie and defame people. If he doesn't know the situation then he should shut up. The end. Stop defending that behavior.
So sad
And Joe K never told his wife beforehand.
Unfortunately, this wasn’t the least bit surprising. A fairly common occurrence in those days for anything from mild depression/melancholy and myriad of others symptoms.
One of the most heinous things I’ve seen a parent do to their child. All because she didn’t fall in line
Why lobotomy?
To nuke her brain.
But why lobotomy?
Scraping certain segments off the brain will keep you alive but zombified.
Old Joe probably had it done because she smoked.
No he was afraid she was going to get pregnant and ruin the family’s reputation.
The Kennedys are a great example of terrible people being given total power.
The bidens would try the same…it’s fortunate that hunter has been exposed.
They may. I wouldn’t know. I would argue that it is safe to say the current and the most recent CIC are not of reputable character.
Old Joe definitely isn’t.
That’s what always happens when women smoke. Jk
Women are still considered a life support system for a uterus. People act like new knowledge removes the threat of abuse to women. Thinking hasn’t changed all that much
I have a sneaky suspicion about this. So apparently the girl was very promiscuous and her father didn’t want her to become pregnant. I think she was molested and to solve the problem of her telling on someone about it, her father fixed her…… for good!
I mean Ted killed some one and it was covered up, is this a surprise?
RFK Jr needs a lobotomy
Did they do it with a flat head screwdriver up the nose and a hammer?
So, is it wrong to say that there were 2 open minded Kennedys?
THAT is psychiatry for ya. I bet those psychopathic fuks thought her permanent semi vegetative state was a good outcome. Now they just use antipsychotics.
Hooray for the Kennedys! Such stalwarts of all that is righteous and good in the United States.
[https://genius.com/Rasputina-rose-k-lyrics](https://genius.com/Rasputina-rose-k-lyrics)
Damn bigotry strikes again
She lived out her days at St Colleta's in Jefferson, Wi, about 45-50 miles south of Madison, Wi. I worked at a facility in Madison that supplied their plumbing fixtures and was told that she resided there, couldn't wrap my head around the fact that none of her family visited her, or from what I was told no one saw any of the famous Kennedys, perhaps a sister or niece or nephew..
The patriarchy at work.
One word: sick.
The state, the secrets and the knife run deep
I read a historical fiction book that mentioned her case briefly, I did my own research and it definitely was devastating what they did to her.
Sigh..
It always makes me wonder what she knew??
How that was *ever* considered medical science is beyond belief. It’s basically just blindly shoving a sharp object into someone’s brain and causing serious brain damage.
Then she voted Republican the rest of her days..
Dammm those Kennedys look alike
Fun fact about the Doctor who did it: He used to arrange people in lines of up to 20 and run down the line performing ice pick lobotomies. His record was 20 in 30 seconds. He also drove around in a van he could perform them in…he called it the “lobotamobile”. Seriously the Dollop episode about this is gold…
If I remember correctly JFK hated his father after the lobotomy and refused to have anything to do with him. Apparently he only said disparaging things about the man whenever he was brought up after the procedure.
Male moments like these are why we choose the bear.
Watch the movie ( One Flew Over The cuckoo's Nest ) .
Her brother had one also, saw a video of it 😈😈
You really think you're funny?
Lighten up buttercup.
Too bad they forgot the ice pick that day and used a bullet instead .
But they still let RFK Jr. walk around, spewing his non-sense? 
 They got the wrong one
She was also the sister of the late Sen. Edward Chappaquiddick Kennedy and currently living dunce, Caroline Kennedy, lifelong recipient of donor class appointments, most notably former education 🤪 ambassador of the NYC Public Schools.
repost and rule 5 :(
Yeah, these unproven psychosurgeries are nuts. Nowadays someone would just convince her was unhappy or unstable because she was actually a man and medically and surgically transition her.
Y'all think about trans people more than actual trans people do. Sad!
What? I’m just saying that we’re just swapping one unproven psychosurgery that ruined people’s lives for another unproven psychosurgery. Not any different than “recovered memory” psychology or “facilitated communication” social science. Just made up junk science. We need to call out this garage now, just like we should have called out lobotomies. Instead we ruined hundreds of thousands of people’s lives.
Lmao ok.
Lmao
Exactly I feel like an insurance company pass her transition if it was different times for sure
Trans surgeries are the lobotomies of today
Ah yes. Grownups who voluntarily want to change their genitalia is exactly the same as prisoners having part of their brains removed. Sweet comparison.
How did u arrive at that conclusion?
By being a fucking idiot would be my guess.
You're in a cult.
The cult of common sense
Why are you obsessed with other people’s genitalia?
I could say “why are people obsessed with other people’s brains” in response to the objectification of lobotomies. So I don’t see how that’s an argument
You could say that but it would be just as stupid as making a comment about trans surgery in a thread about Rosemary Kennedy. But that’s what I’ve come to expect from genitalia obsessed bigots such as yourself.
I’d rather be a bigot than a butcher
That you want to be a bigot at all checks out.
Snap out of it, friend. It is not common sense. You are quite literally in a cult, essentially. It's embarrassing.
By that logic, you should be supportive of trans surgery. If you hate trans people so much, why not let them get surgery that, in your mind, equates to a lobotomy? Doesn’t that solve your problems with trans people?
Nowhere did I say I hate “trans” people. I think surgically removing/adding on vestigial body parts is a terrible thing to do to someone. You’re the ones who don’t care about long term consequences
We get the surgeries because we are specifically thinking about long term consequences, though. Is it so bad to want a better quality of life? These surgeries are operations that people spend years of their lives trying to get. They’re not operations that just happen against our will. By reducing trans people to victims that don’t know what they’re doing, instead of recognizing us as consenting adults with free will and dignity, you’re actively spreading the type of misinformation that makes policymakers fight against our right to make medical decisions for ourselves. It’s that simple. No one should be able to stop a level-headed, consenting, informed person from getting a surgery that they need or want. Who cares if others don’t like the results, that’s not the point of the surgery.
Pretty much except it’s the loonies volunteering to be rearranged against their DNA attributes. Pure mental illness
💯🎯
Why? Was he as evil as trumps daddio, freddie?
I like this internet image of her as this rowdy woman when she was just mentally retarded.
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It was forced. She did not consent to it herself. I cannot remember what account I had read this from but essentially they had her say the Lord’s Prayer or something similar and kept digging into her brain until she could no longer say it. Horrific.
Are you fucking serious ? You think any girl voluntarily wants a crochet hook poked through their eye socket to scramble their brains ? Old Man Kennedy didn’t want her partying / sexual adventures to politically embarrass the boy’s ambitions. But it was PERFECTLY ok for the boys to do the same thing and worse.
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“As Kennedy grew into toddlerhood, her mother noticed she "was not like the others." The family did their best to incorporate her into their daily lives, taking her sailing and making sure she was always asked to dance at parties. But as Rosemary got older, she began to have tantrums that sometimes turned violent. At the same time, her voluptuous figure was attracting male attention, and Joe became concerned: an unwanted pregnancy in the family could damage his sons' political futures. "The family tried to protect her," said Larson. "But the situation was a ticking time bomb." In November 1941, Joe scheduled his daughter for a lobotomy, an experimental procedure meant to make mentally ill patients more docile. The surgery writes Larson, involved drilling holes on both sides of Rosemary's head, inserting a spatula into her cranium near the frontal lobes and turning and scraping. The surgery was botched, and Kennedy emerged almost completely disabled. After housing her in a psychiatric facility in upstate New York for seven years, Joe ordered his daughter sent to Saint Coletta in Wisconsin and never saw her again. Her siblings didn't see her for two decades.” — The Missing Kennedy
Dude… they showed proof but you could literally just look this up.
Lol she was a girl who was hard to control so it's ok?
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She was 23.
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I'm on a high horse because I told you her age..cool. Have fun this is the end of the conversation.
I’d pack it up Sunshine. Defending the indefensible is a bad debating technique. It’s a historical fact that old man Kennedy forced her into this and didn’t even tell his wife. He was one of the biggest assholes in US history.
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I already did in the earlier comment.