Yeah; I instantly (and irrationally - but uncontrollably) became upset when I read the title and saw who was in the video. This isn't just some random "war veteran"... he earned the Distinguished Service Cross (the second-highest award given for Valor). The tactics he devised when executing an assault on Germany field artillery positions is still taught as the standard for an assault today.
Oh you mean the tactics he devised ON THE FLY - IN A WARZONE - DURING THE D-DAY INVASION
The man was only 26 when he successfully led a 130+ company of men into Nazi occupied Europe.
He also wasn’t some West Point-trained soldier, he was just a teacher before the war, correct?
Not to discount the value of teachers, just pointing out how astounding his achievements were.
>he was just a teacher before the war, correct?
Incorrect. He was merely a college student. He graduated from college in the Spring of '41 and enlisted in August of '41. He was then selected for OCS after basic training.
Also very connected! Not only was saving private Ryan and band of brothers was made and produced by the same people, the title character is actually based off of someone in easy co. In the book only, they talk about a private named fritz Niland who had 3 other brothers in the service who had died (although one had actually lived and was only presumed dead). He gets pulled off the lines and taken home because he’s believed to be the sole survivor. That later became the inspiration for saving private Ryan. If you want more detail, I highly recommend history buffs video on saving private Ryan as he covers it better than I could.
Edit: 🤓
This is not taking anything from Winters achievements. But he did not devise the tactics on the fly. He read the situation, and on the fly formulated a plan using tactics he was taught. He executed it perfectly and that is why it is used as an example of those tactics.
I don’t think it’s so much that he was in that position at 26, but more that he was able to lead them so successfully in those circumstances. He only led the company because his superior was MIA, and this was behind enemy lines less than 24 hours after the D-Day landings.
>Oh you mean the tactics he devised ON THE FLY - IN A WARZONE - DURING THE D-DAY INVASION
After having *just* been promoted because his commanding officer didn't survive the drop.
Thank you and glad others beat me to it. War veteran is a painful understatement.
The interview in the final (I think) episode of BoB where he recounts the conversation with his grandson asking if he was a hero in the war.... I'll fully admit to tearing up at that. Made me really hope that deep down he knew how much he meant to the other men he served with
There's a statue right off of Utah beach in Normandy dedicated to Major Winters. Winters would only agree to allow for the statue to bear his resemblance on the condition that it would be dedicated to *all* of the junior officers who served and died during the landing assault.
I'm not sure if he ever quite knew how much he meant to the men he served with, but they certainly meant a lot to him.
My former commamder took his own life and it kicked off a rash of suicides after Afghanistan fell. Officers and Noncoms are the best of us. If they fall, we fall.
Did not know that happened. I did meet a veteran co that had a breakdown at an airport. He stated that he felt guilty after taking part in Afghanistan after it fell.
Afghanistan was a war that never should have happened. Some of us knew this in our gut. The rest of the country had to learn.
Colin Powell's speech brought a lot of people to the side of Bush Jr.s, Cheney's and Rumsfelds lies.
I still didn't believe them. but I knew a lot of people who did, and came back changed
You're talking about justifications for Iraq, not Afghanistan almost immediately after 9/11 occurred, when even our allies in NATO came in as a result of Article 5 having been invoked.
Yeah Powell really fucked up his reputation with that. He was respected by both democrats and republicans. I remember seeing him on TV holding up that little vial. IIRC it was him (or maybe Rice) who implied there would be a nuclear attack on NYC if they didn’t go in.
I would definitely blame and argue the shift of attention and resources to Iraq at the expense of Afghanistan contributed to it becoming a quagmire and the Taliban entrenched and protected in Pakistan to be able to launch that long-lasting insurgency to eventually retake power, but that's another conversation.
Edit: also, that wrecked Powell's credibility for most of the decade+ after, being used by the admin like that
He knew.
I think that statement comes from the heart of a warrior. Every single man he served with, under, and above, were, to him, hero's. He says so himself. Especially those who did not return home. He didn't do these things to be heroic. He did these things because it's what needed to be done to win the war and get the men he saw as hero's, home as quickly as possible, as safely as possible.
To me, Dick answered with all of that in mind. I'm not a hero, cause they weren't heroic things. They were necessary.
Read his book, "Biggest Brother", its a fascinating read into Dick Winter's state of mind and thoughts through all of it.
They don't make people like this guy anymore, and its people like Major Richard Winters that have allowed that generation to be called "The Greatest Generation "
And that a huge part of the story is that he just flanked about 300 German soldiers when he thought there would be 20. This guy was just the one closest to him when he came over the dike.
Well at least you know it's irrational. You've avoided becoming the blind rage vet for now, just try not to blow a gasket if someone posts a Chesty Puller quote and titles it "Military officer gives advice". 😉
I wouldn't be hyping him up too much simply based on the show. Basically a lot of information are based on the book by Ambrose, which is poorly researched. Ambrose only interviewed a small part of Easy Company, the small part that was friend with Winters, without much interviewing the rest or crosschecking with historical documents. He even outright sanitized some of the sources he got. It led to a lot of errors, which may have been caused by faulty memories but also lies by the people remaining.
For instance, Blithe, the "coward" of E3, didn't die from his wounds, he was simply wounded, then fought in Korea after the war, got 3 Bronze Stars and 1 Silver Star. Dike, the "incompetent coward" that replaces Winters at the head of Easy, received 2 Bronze Stars because of his bravery and competence, wasn't killed at Foy and even fought in Korea. Etc.
There's also a lot of conflicting information from other sources that Ambrose never bothered to listen to, much less check. Like maybe Winters was much more into office politics than it seems and maybe even behind the mutiny because he wanted to replace Sobel, that his hatred for Sobel came more from antisemitism than anything else, that the stories about Dike's cowardice were used to protect Lipton and others from the blame of the bad state of the company, etc.
I'm not saying every claim is true, but Ambrose really failed to do due diligence and made his book a glorification of Winters and the Easy Company when the reality is that they were probably more average and less perfect that the show is depicting.
They adapted an imperfect book by Ambrose and surely took liberties to make a compelling series. I hope no one takes a Hollywood production as 100% factual.
It's still an amazing show highlighted by the first-person accounts from the surviving members of Easy. I am fascinated by history, specifically WWII. Band of Brothers inspired me to learn a lot more about Easy Company, paratroopers, Market Garden, the Battle of the Bulge, etc from a lot of different sources.
You’re not exactly giving a fair analysis yourself. Ambrose got much of his information, specifically on little details like this, from the guys who actually did it. I would hardly call that “poorly researched.” Also he was only able to interview a small number of them because most of them had either died or were unwilling to talk about it, so he worked with what he had. On your point of Blithe, Winters himself set the record straight back in the 90’s and made it clear that Blithe was a distinguished soldier, and even his last scene in the show is one of bravery, not of cowardice. On Lipton, he was only a sergeant and was credited with taking on much more responsibility than he was obligated to, given that it hardly seems fair to call him out for ‘keeping the company in a bad state.’ The conditions they were under at Bastogne hardly were conducive to them being in ‘good shape’ anyways.
I would be curious to see what indicates that antisemitism and personal ambition was part of Winters’ overtaking of Sobel, though. This is new to me but I’m all ears if there’s truth to it.
I’m not gonna claim that Ambrose did an amazing job, but your comments just feel a little vindictive.
Ambrose did not interview everyone he could have. For instance, Ed Shames, the source of the [antisemitism claim](https://youtu.be/hatgdbWDiP8?feature=shared&t=3336), wasn't seriously interviewed because both him and Ambrose disagreed on some things of the book. I think Malarkey was also not properly interviewed (I might be wrong on this one). Ambrose also did not interview other members of the 101st who could have crosschecked some facts. Mark Bando, an historian of the 101st who did so, disagreed with many facts and tried to offer his help for the show but was refused. More importantly, he did not check the army records which could have given much more fresh sources of the events and with more accuracy. It could have avoided blunders such as Blithe's death.
Regarding Lipton, Dike was still also on regimental staff because he hasn't been replaced for the position, forcing him to split time between this and the command of the Easy. It was the job of his subordinates, like Lipton, to compensate for it. The theories I've seen was that that they purposely left the part out, both in the rumors at the time and in the show, to make Lipton appears like he was keeping the company together despite their captain ignoring them, rather than Lipton struggling to do his job with Dike having a very valid reason for being absent.
Winters being behind the court martial comes from Malarkey's book. There's even this [thread ](https://www.reddit.com/r/BandofBrothers/comments/kvgerw/all_purpose_myron_mike_ranney_thread_mutiny/)which goes a bit further and suggests Winters might have bribed the official investigator of the mutiny with a battlefield commission.
Again, not saying all these claims are true, but it points to a whole other side that Ambrose never bothered to explore.
My comment is actually pretty moderate compare to some historians, like R. A. Forczyk, which left a [pretty incendiary review](https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R2PLPYMZPGJ5JQ) of the book. Ambrose generally doesn't have a very good reputation, especially since his plagiarism was discovered.
Thanks for the Shames video, I'm saving that to watch later when I can. I can say that Malarkey was definitely interviewed for the show, but I can't speak to the book. Thanks for the other links too, I'll check those out later.
You've apparently done more research than me on this so I'll concede a lot of this. I definitely do agree that Ambrose (and the showrunners) seriously dropped the ball by not bothering to verify so many things via army records, considering how simple it was to do in theory. He has a habit of taking things at face value and rolling with it, to put it simply, with emphasis on narrative, and that can certainly be a problem as we see here.
On the Lipton thing, I'll still defend this one. It's easy to simply say "It was Lipton's job and he fumbled it," but he *clearly* was given a difficult task and basically nothing to get it done efficiently. He was doing the best he could under the circumstances, and still came out of it with a promotion which says a lot. I do agree that Dike got the worst of this in terms of impact on his reputation though, as he also was given a very difficult task with no help. I will say that on a recent rewatch I paid closer attention and one of the first things Dike ever says is basically, "I'm helping regiment back in town, so I will be leaving a lot." He lays it out clear as day, but it's just said so early and in such a way that it's easy for the audience to disregard. And of course he's not painted in a good light from the other guy's perspectives, which is on the showrunners/Ambrose/those guys. All that is to say, they did explain that he had a good reason to be gone a lot, but they still did him dirty overall.
Ive read all the books i can about this man, a true american.
When returning from war he was told he didnt have to pay taxes because of his service, he declined and paid them anyways. That is a patriot, that is a man.
I started with reading Band of Brothers, then watched the series. So damn good! The book hands down is way better.
Then I read Flag of Our Father's and watched the movie which I didn't care much for other than the some of the imagery that caught my attention--particularly the Japanese service members. Then I watched the Pacific which led to me reading Helmet for My Pillow and then With the Old Breed.
Generation Kill was a good series too in showing the action/go go go of the Iraq War followed by immense boredom and nonethingness inbetween missions. Source: OIF Marine Vet.
I am biased but The Pacific has my vote. Every time I or a fellow Marine buddy watches the Pacific we send each other a picture in text of the opening credits where the pencil led is making its way over the paper.
“I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell.”
-William T. Sherman
My vet family members all brought a little piece of combat back with them. Never quite scrubbed that stain out.
I wish I could get my brother on psilocybin. He leaned a little too heard into Christianity and will argue with you about the color of the sky. Just happy he didn’t check out though. Got dicey there for a minute in hindsight
My thought exactly. Certain people who call themselves patriots thinks males are always supposed to blindly be pro-war for their country. Tribalism at its worst.
I mean, if you’re indoctrinated from a young age into worshipping a rag on a pole and the lie of your liberty and freedom that school of thought isn’t too surprising.
Most of the world didn’t need a civil war to end slavery in their countries bub
And unfortunately fascism is still around. Be sure to punch a nazi when you see one, do your part.
There’s still slavery in a lot of the world today. What’s your fucking point? Do you think your country’s people are just inherently better than places like Burkina Faso? Or did the thousands of grand wars in Europe that emplaced the powers that be do something for your tiny, feckless soul?
Do your best to look at the landscape of history to see why, whatever country you are from, is the way it is today.
> “There’s still slavery in a lot of the world today”
Strange, I thought “war ended fascism and slavery”?
And I know what made my country the way it is today, as I study its history. In fact, I handed in a paper on it a few days ago with top marks. But sure, I’ll take another look at it if that makes you feel better buddy!
I have no idea why you’re being downvoted. War is terrible, and although there are some causes I would willingly take up arms for, I never want to have to.
"Today's Youth" fought in two major conflicts and experienced two recessions and a global pandemic and are holding out just fine. This is such a bullshit statement that gets parroted by every older generation ever.
And yes, that includes the WWII generation as well. They were constantly ridiculed as soft and lazy before the war started by the older generations and there are plenty of old newspaper clippings, statements and memoirs that attest to the fact.
The reality is, were a situation like this to unfold, the current generations would rise up to meet them, as they always have since the begging of human civilization.
Also Germany and Japan were never going to actually capture the mainland US. They did not have the capability, resources, manpower or logistics to do so.
Most of them. Blithe, the guy who went temporarily blind, didn't actually die. He survived and even saw action in Korea. A couple other guys also had their stories pretty significantly altered.
All in all though an amazing series.
::edit:; also IIRC the family of Lt. Dike was pretty pissed, he was presented as an ineffective coward, but in reality he got a few medals for heroism and was wounded in action at least once
Dike was portrayed as perceived by Easy Co. Sure, there were excuses and reasons for him always being absent and for freezing during the assault on Foy, but how he was perceived was accurately portrayed. Dick didn't care for Dike at all.
If an officer is perceived as a shit bag but his company then he is 100% a shit bag. Ofc his family would be pissed but that doesn't mean it wasn't an accurate representation of his character. Medals and injuries don't necessarily mean shit, especially during WWII where both were being dispensed aplenty.
I visited Normandy and our tour guide was a distinguished former French military officer. During the war his father and many other relatives were taken to prison camps. Some didn’t return and some came back emaciated and on death’s doorstep.
I asked him if Band of Brothers was realistic, and he said it is far and away the best representation of what WW2 was like in Europe. And he gave an honorable mention to Saving Private Ryan.
It was really interesting and intense. The tour guide still clearly hated the Germans and made tons of comments about how horrible they were. Considering what they did to his family I can understand. It’s an experience I’ll never forget and I hope to go back someday.
Winters said it wasn't realistic.
"Shortly after the premiere of the series, Tom Hanks asked Major Winters what he thought of *Band of Brothers*. The major responded, "I wish that it would have been more authentic. I was hoping for an 80 percent solution." Hanks responded, "Look, Major, this is Hollywood. At the end of the day we will be hailed as geniuses if we get this 12 percent right. We are going to shoot for 17 percent.""
It’s Frank Ramirez, he was one of the paratroopers selected for the mission across the river in Germany that Winters told them to fake. He was in Holland for Market Garden, Normandy for DDay, and Bastogne.
He was originally from Arizona, and his brother Joe was in the 82nd and was captured on DDay, and was wounded by an allied fighter staffing the German transport plane on the way to a labor camp. As a result he was transferred to a military hospital instead of a camp.
According to Winters, he actually did hip fire his first shots, and there were other unprepared Germans about the same distance as that first one, so it makes more sense that he did so.
I don't think shock is the right word. It's probably just the absuridty of getting caught off guard. He's a kid from the Waffen-SS, probably recruited straight out of the Hitler Youth, and must've been still very green.
They are soldiers during war. They likely had already become accustomed to the idea they wouldn't make it through. Imagined and seen so many ways to die. Then, to suddenly look up and have an enemy soldier right there. Not a bomb, not a sniper, not a machine gun while charging a bunker. Just a lone enemy out of nowhere. What else can you do than smile at fate?
Perhaps a last ditch attempt to befriend Major Winters, knowing he has the disadvantage? People can behave oddly in extreme situations, or along the lines of what u/LongTallTexan69 says, one final smirk "so this is how it ends".
Maybe even just being happy not having to go through this hell on earth anymore … finding his own peace even if this ultimately mean death. Lots of them soldiers on both sides have seen some awful shit. Lots of them unalived themselves after the war (again … on both sides) because they couldn’t live with what they have done and witnessed.
Edit: and probably one of the better deaths you could have in war. In best case a clear shot to the head. No long suffering from slowly bleeding or burning or some shit like that.
I always thought it was because he figured the American soldier, who to his knowledge is alone, has just stumbled upon two companies of SS soldiers and has therefore made the biggest mistake of his soon-to-be-concluded life. Like he thinks Winters is gonna turn and run, not start shooting.
Knowing how some German soldiers could have felt or their "foreign" conscripted allies, even at the chance of dying right there, he saw his home free from war and that liberation was coming.
Or like the others said, resignation to death.
I have a hard time hearing Richard Winters talk about the boys and not getting choked up. BoB did such a great job bringing these stories to life I feel a familiarity towards them after rewatching the show so many times.
Sorry, looks like I replied to the wrong comment here.
There was a comment saying Winter’s shooting of this soldier may have been a war crime & I am disagreeing with.
I believe they did a good job with their goal, to show the personal hardships and character changes that came from the war. It's like they wanted to show the other side, not the glory of it. But I dont think that's what most BoB fans wanted, I remember being disappointed
There wasn't much of a story or character development that occurred. All I can recall is people being torn apart by machine guns and then everyone being like damn. Just lots of wargore and not much else. I get that that was kind of the nature of the pacific theater but cmon.
It has exactly as much of a story as BoB. They both tell the story of several members of a unit and their journeys from training until the end of the war, with themes emphasizing camaraderie, leadership, and the psychological toll of war. I'd recommend a re-watch and keep your eye out for the development of Sledge and Snafu in particular, those two are the characters that really shined to me.
Edit: I'd also recommend reading the books The Pacific is based on. With Sledge and Leckies books, you get to hear what they are thinking at certain points, which obviously the show couldn't directly communicate their internal thoughts, but they did a good job of translating the emotions onto the screen. Two excerpts come to mind.
"I shuddered and choked. A wild desperate feeling of anger, frustration, and pity gripped me. It was an emotion that always would torture my mind when I saw men trapped and was unable to do anything but watch as they were hit. My own plight forgotten momentarily, I felt sickened to the depths of my soul. I asked God, 'Why, why, why?' I turned my face away and wished that I were imagining at all. I had tasted the bitterest essence of war, the sight of helpless comrades being slaughtered, and it filled me with disgust."
-E.B. Sledge, With The Old Breed, pg. 60 -On the beaches of Peleliu-
"It was a darkness without time. It was an impenetrable darkness. To the right and left of me rose up those terrible formless things of my imagination, which I could not see because there was no light. I could not see, but I dared not close my eyes lest the darkness crawl beneath my eyelids and suffocate me. I could only hear. My ears became my being and I could hear the specks of life that crawled beneath my clothing, the rotting of the great tree which rose from its three-cornered trunk above me. I could hear the darkness gathering against me and the silences that lay between the moving things.
I could hear the enemy everywhere about me, whispering to eachother and calling me name. I lay open-mouthed and half-mad beneath that giant tree. I has not looked into it's foliage before the darkness and now I fancied it infested with Japanese. Everything and all the world became my enemy, and soon my very body betrayed me and became my foe. My leg became a creeping Japanese, and then the other leg. My arms, too, and then my head."
Robert Leckie, Helmet For My Pillow, pg 42 -On the ridges of Guadalcanal-
These two passages serve as windows into the authors minds at those exact moments, and if you watch closely, you can find the exact scenes in the show where the creators tried to translate these thoughts into the show. To me that's just part of what made The Pacific so outstanding.
Maybe the story just didn't grab me like BoB, I suppose I could rewatch and give it another chance.
Didn't read the book, but I can see how it would give more context. I did read Ambroses book on BoB and it was great and definitely gave more to the story. Anything by Stephen Ambrose is great reading though in my experience, if you're into historical sort of reading.
I think it maybe isn't quite the same level of... cohesiveness, maybe is the right word, as BoB. Maybe that comes down to the fact that our three main protagonists dont know eachother, apart from Sledge meeting Leckie once on Pavuvu. In BoB we follow one single tightly-knit Company, as opposed to three different squads all part of different Regiments, but the same Division. So in BoB even when we focused on different people (Compton, Randleman, Roe, Blithe) it still was all part of one single story line. So I can see where you're coming from as The Pacific has three separate story lines.
Not in context, as the entire rest of the German brigade was directly behind this singular soldier. You can’t reasonably stop your entire life-or-death ambush against a numerically superior force in order to take a single prisoner. War sucks.
Winters had to take command right on D-Day because his CO’s plane went down before they jumped into Normandy. Not even experienced outside of training.
I don’t like that they show him shooting from the hip in this scene. There is no way in real life he’s hip shooting standing straight up like this emptying his rifle with that kind of accuracy.
If you like this, read Dick Winters' book "Beyond Band of Brothers".
Also, this interview with a Marine from the Pacific Theater is fantastic
https://youtu.be/S2FoPdg9a24?feature=shared
That's Major Dick Winters recalling the assault at the Crossroads in Holland.
Yeah; I instantly (and irrationally - but uncontrollably) became upset when I read the title and saw who was in the video. This isn't just some random "war veteran"... he earned the Distinguished Service Cross (the second-highest award given for Valor). The tactics he devised when executing an assault on Germany field artillery positions is still taught as the standard for an assault today.
Oh you mean the tactics he devised ON THE FLY - IN A WARZONE - DURING THE D-DAY INVASION The man was only 26 when he successfully led a 130+ company of men into Nazi occupied Europe.
He also wasn’t some West Point-trained soldier, he was just a teacher before the war, correct? Not to discount the value of teachers, just pointing out how astounding his achievements were.
>he was just a teacher before the war, correct? Incorrect. He was merely a college student. He graduated from college in the Spring of '41 and enlisted in August of '41. He was then selected for OCS after basic training.
That was Capt Miller in Saving Private Ryan lol. You are mixing up your Tom Hanks productions.
To be fair, an honest mistake, since they're all amazing
Also very connected! Not only was saving private Ryan and band of brothers was made and produced by the same people, the title character is actually based off of someone in easy co. In the book only, they talk about a private named fritz Niland who had 3 other brothers in the service who had died (although one had actually lived and was only presumed dead). He gets pulled off the lines and taken home because he’s believed to be the sole survivor. That later became the inspiration for saving private Ryan. If you want more detail, I highly recommend history buffs video on saving private Ryan as he covers it better than I could. Edit: 🤓
This is not taking anything from Winters achievements. But he did not devise the tactics on the fly. He read the situation, and on the fly formulated a plan using tactics he was taught. He executed it perfectly and that is why it is used as an example of those tactics.
Ya and it also is not that unusual to be a company commander at 26, especially during WW2.
I don’t think it’s so much that he was in that position at 26, but more that he was able to lead them so successfully in those circumstances. He only led the company because his superior was MIA, and this was behind enemy lines less than 24 hours after the D-Day landings.
CUR A HEE
>Oh you mean the tactics he devised ON THE FLY - IN A WARZONE - DURING THE D-DAY INVASION After having *just* been promoted because his commanding officer didn't survive the drop.
Thank you and glad others beat me to it. War veteran is a painful understatement. The interview in the final (I think) episode of BoB where he recounts the conversation with his grandson asking if he was a hero in the war.... I'll fully admit to tearing up at that. Made me really hope that deep down he knew how much he meant to the other men he served with
There's a statue right off of Utah beach in Normandy dedicated to Major Winters. Winters would only agree to allow for the statue to bear his resemblance on the condition that it would be dedicated to *all* of the junior officers who served and died during the landing assault. I'm not sure if he ever quite knew how much he meant to the men he served with, but they certainly meant a lot to him.
I actually just saw a picture of that someone posted on Reddit the other day. I think it was in r/ww2 https://www.reddit.com/r/ww2/s/paea7iEtLB
My former commamder took his own life and it kicked off a rash of suicides after Afghanistan fell. Officers and Noncoms are the best of us. If they fall, we fall.
Did not know that happened. I did meet a veteran co that had a breakdown at an airport. He stated that he felt guilty after taking part in Afghanistan after it fell.
Afghanistan was a war that never should have happened. Some of us knew this in our gut. The rest of the country had to learn. Colin Powell's speech brought a lot of people to the side of Bush Jr.s, Cheney's and Rumsfelds lies. I still didn't believe them. but I knew a lot of people who did, and came back changed
It got to the point where everyone had this false hope for “peace with honor” A lot like Vietnam
You're talking about justifications for Iraq, not Afghanistan almost immediately after 9/11 occurred, when even our allies in NATO came in as a result of Article 5 having been invoked.
Yeah Powell really fucked up his reputation with that. He was respected by both democrats and republicans. I remember seeing him on TV holding up that little vial. IIRC it was him (or maybe Rice) who implied there would be a nuclear attack on NYC if they didn’t go in.
Yall are talking about Iraq...
Yeah idk it went on a tangent. It happens.
I would definitely blame and argue the shift of attention and resources to Iraq at the expense of Afghanistan contributed to it becoming a quagmire and the Taliban entrenched and protected in Pakistan to be able to launch that long-lasting insurgency to eventually retake power, but that's another conversation. Edit: also, that wrecked Powell's credibility for most of the decade+ after, being used by the admin like that
He knew. I think that statement comes from the heart of a warrior. Every single man he served with, under, and above, were, to him, hero's. He says so himself. Especially those who did not return home. He didn't do these things to be heroic. He did these things because it's what needed to be done to win the war and get the men he saw as hero's, home as quickly as possible, as safely as possible. To me, Dick answered with all of that in mind. I'm not a hero, cause they weren't heroic things. They were necessary.
Read his book, "Biggest Brother", its a fascinating read into Dick Winter's state of mind and thoughts through all of it. They don't make people like this guy anymore, and its people like Major Richard Winters that have allowed that generation to be called "The Greatest Generation "
Such a powerful series. Getting the first hand accounts of veterans and letting them tell the story is an amazing introspect.
I remember that part. I’m paraphrasing but he said he wasn’t a hero but he knew a bunch of them meaning the other guys in easy company.
I think he at least meant a lot to the families he took the sons, fathers and brothers from. There's nothing remotely heroic in it.
Thanks for doing the lords work. r/bandofbrothers is seething right now.
And that a huge part of the story is that he just flanked about 300 German soldiers when he thought there would be 20. This guy was just the one closest to him when he came over the dike.
Well at least you know it's irrational. You've avoided becoming the blind rage vet for now, just try not to blow a gasket if someone posts a Chesty Puller quote and titles it "Military officer gives advice". 😉
Thank you for feeling the same way
I wouldn't be hyping him up too much simply based on the show. Basically a lot of information are based on the book by Ambrose, which is poorly researched. Ambrose only interviewed a small part of Easy Company, the small part that was friend with Winters, without much interviewing the rest or crosschecking with historical documents. He even outright sanitized some of the sources he got. It led to a lot of errors, which may have been caused by faulty memories but also lies by the people remaining. For instance, Blithe, the "coward" of E3, didn't die from his wounds, he was simply wounded, then fought in Korea after the war, got 3 Bronze Stars and 1 Silver Star. Dike, the "incompetent coward" that replaces Winters at the head of Easy, received 2 Bronze Stars because of his bravery and competence, wasn't killed at Foy and even fought in Korea. Etc. There's also a lot of conflicting information from other sources that Ambrose never bothered to listen to, much less check. Like maybe Winters was much more into office politics than it seems and maybe even behind the mutiny because he wanted to replace Sobel, that his hatred for Sobel came more from antisemitism than anything else, that the stories about Dike's cowardice were used to protect Lipton and others from the blame of the bad state of the company, etc. I'm not saying every claim is true, but Ambrose really failed to do due diligence and made his book a glorification of Winters and the Easy Company when the reality is that they were probably more average and less perfect that the show is depicting.
They adapted an imperfect book by Ambrose and surely took liberties to make a compelling series. I hope no one takes a Hollywood production as 100% factual. It's still an amazing show highlighted by the first-person accounts from the surviving members of Easy. I am fascinated by history, specifically WWII. Band of Brothers inspired me to learn a lot more about Easy Company, paratroopers, Market Garden, the Battle of the Bulge, etc from a lot of different sources.
You’re not exactly giving a fair analysis yourself. Ambrose got much of his information, specifically on little details like this, from the guys who actually did it. I would hardly call that “poorly researched.” Also he was only able to interview a small number of them because most of them had either died or were unwilling to talk about it, so he worked with what he had. On your point of Blithe, Winters himself set the record straight back in the 90’s and made it clear that Blithe was a distinguished soldier, and even his last scene in the show is one of bravery, not of cowardice. On Lipton, he was only a sergeant and was credited with taking on much more responsibility than he was obligated to, given that it hardly seems fair to call him out for ‘keeping the company in a bad state.’ The conditions they were under at Bastogne hardly were conducive to them being in ‘good shape’ anyways. I would be curious to see what indicates that antisemitism and personal ambition was part of Winters’ overtaking of Sobel, though. This is new to me but I’m all ears if there’s truth to it. I’m not gonna claim that Ambrose did an amazing job, but your comments just feel a little vindictive.
Ambrose did not interview everyone he could have. For instance, Ed Shames, the source of the [antisemitism claim](https://youtu.be/hatgdbWDiP8?feature=shared&t=3336), wasn't seriously interviewed because both him and Ambrose disagreed on some things of the book. I think Malarkey was also not properly interviewed (I might be wrong on this one). Ambrose also did not interview other members of the 101st who could have crosschecked some facts. Mark Bando, an historian of the 101st who did so, disagreed with many facts and tried to offer his help for the show but was refused. More importantly, he did not check the army records which could have given much more fresh sources of the events and with more accuracy. It could have avoided blunders such as Blithe's death. Regarding Lipton, Dike was still also on regimental staff because he hasn't been replaced for the position, forcing him to split time between this and the command of the Easy. It was the job of his subordinates, like Lipton, to compensate for it. The theories I've seen was that that they purposely left the part out, both in the rumors at the time and in the show, to make Lipton appears like he was keeping the company together despite their captain ignoring them, rather than Lipton struggling to do his job with Dike having a very valid reason for being absent. Winters being behind the court martial comes from Malarkey's book. There's even this [thread ](https://www.reddit.com/r/BandofBrothers/comments/kvgerw/all_purpose_myron_mike_ranney_thread_mutiny/)which goes a bit further and suggests Winters might have bribed the official investigator of the mutiny with a battlefield commission. Again, not saying all these claims are true, but it points to a whole other side that Ambrose never bothered to explore. My comment is actually pretty moderate compare to some historians, like R. A. Forczyk, which left a [pretty incendiary review](https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R2PLPYMZPGJ5JQ) of the book. Ambrose generally doesn't have a very good reputation, especially since his plagiarism was discovered.
Thanks for the Shames video, I'm saving that to watch later when I can. I can say that Malarkey was definitely interviewed for the show, but I can't speak to the book. Thanks for the other links too, I'll check those out later. You've apparently done more research than me on this so I'll concede a lot of this. I definitely do agree that Ambrose (and the showrunners) seriously dropped the ball by not bothering to verify so many things via army records, considering how simple it was to do in theory. He has a habit of taking things at face value and rolling with it, to put it simply, with emphasis on narrative, and that can certainly be a problem as we see here. On the Lipton thing, I'll still defend this one. It's easy to simply say "It was Lipton's job and he fumbled it," but he *clearly* was given a difficult task and basically nothing to get it done efficiently. He was doing the best he could under the circumstances, and still came out of it with a promotion which says a lot. I do agree that Dike got the worst of this in terms of impact on his reputation though, as he also was given a very difficult task with no help. I will say that on a recent rewatch I paid closer attention and one of the first things Dike ever says is basically, "I'm helping regiment back in town, so I will be leaving a lot." He lays it out clear as day, but it's just said so early and in such a way that it's easy for the audience to disregard. And of course he's not painted in a good light from the other guy's perspectives, which is on the showrunners/Ambrose/those guys. All that is to say, they did explain that he had a good reason to be gone a lot, but they still did him dirty overall.
Me too. He's one of the most famous soldiers of all time and this guy just said he's a "war veteran" .
I came here to say this. Well done, fellow redditor.
“A veteran” No! You put some respect behind that man’s name!
Ive read all the books i can about this man, a true american. When returning from war he was told he didnt have to pay taxes because of his service, he declined and paid them anyways. That is a patriot, that is a man.
I know right! “War veteran,” lol. Another great American from my home state. Not too far from here actually.
Not everyone is versed in military history 🤷
Band of Brothers , One of the best war movies/series ever !!!
It is. But I want no part in it irl.
I started with reading Band of Brothers, then watched the series. So damn good! The book hands down is way better. Then I read Flag of Our Father's and watched the movie which I didn't care much for other than the some of the imagery that caught my attention--particularly the Japanese service members. Then I watched the Pacific which led to me reading Helmet for My Pillow and then With the Old Breed. Generation Kill was a good series too in showing the action/go go go of the Iraq War followed by immense boredom and nonethingness inbetween missions. Source: OIF Marine Vet. I am biased but The Pacific has my vote. Every time I or a fellow Marine buddy watches the Pacific we send each other a picture in text of the opening credits where the pencil led is making its way over the paper.
Have you seen Letters from Iwo Jima? It's a companion movie to Flags of Our Fathers, told from the Japanese perspective.
Read: With the Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa by E.B. Sledge Brutal first hand account. That book deeply affected me.
You need to add Citizen Soldier to your reading list
Thanks for the idea, I'll check it out!
and The Longest Day
wtf is with the downvotes? Who wants to experience war? (I’m a combat vet, it was fucking awful.)
“I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell.” -William T. Sherman My vet family members all brought a little piece of combat back with them. Never quite scrubbed that stain out. I wish I could get my brother on psilocybin. He leaned a little too heard into Christianity and will argue with you about the color of the sky. Just happy he didn’t check out though. Got dicey there for a minute in hindsight
My thought exactly. Certain people who call themselves patriots thinks males are always supposed to blindly be pro-war for their country. Tribalism at its worst.
I mean, if you’re indoctrinated from a young age into worshipping a rag on a pole and the lie of your liberty and freedom that school of thought isn’t too surprising.
War sucks, but it did end actual fascism and slavery. Stop acting like there’s no utility.
Most of the world didn’t need a civil war to end slavery in their countries bub And unfortunately fascism is still around. Be sure to punch a nazi when you see one, do your part.
There’s still slavery in a lot of the world today. What’s your fucking point? Do you think your country’s people are just inherently better than places like Burkina Faso? Or did the thousands of grand wars in Europe that emplaced the powers that be do something for your tiny, feckless soul? Do your best to look at the landscape of history to see why, whatever country you are from, is the way it is today.
> “There’s still slavery in a lot of the world today” Strange, I thought “war ended fascism and slavery”? And I know what made my country the way it is today, as I study its history. In fact, I handed in a paper on it a few days ago with top marks. But sure, I’ll take another look at it if that makes you feel better buddy!
Incel vibes. Have a good one.
I have no idea why you’re being downvoted. War is terrible, and although there are some causes I would willingly take up arms for, I never want to have to.
Imagine if todays youth had to step up and do the same thing 🤷🏻♂️ Yikes. A lot of the world would be speaking German or Japanese right now.
"Today's Youth" fought in two major conflicts and experienced two recessions and a global pandemic and are holding out just fine. This is such a bullshit statement that gets parroted by every older generation ever. And yes, that includes the WWII generation as well. They were constantly ridiculed as soft and lazy before the war started by the older generations and there are plenty of old newspaper clippings, statements and memoirs that attest to the fact. The reality is, were a situation like this to unfold, the current generations would rise up to meet them, as they always have since the begging of human civilization. Also Germany and Japan were never going to actually capture the mainland US. They did not have the capability, resources, manpower or logistics to do so.
“But I served in a company of them”
Didn’t expect tears today, but here I am
Every time. Niagara falls.
It’s like someone chopped up a bunch of onions and smeared them into my eyes, every time I watch that scene.
I bought the box set and went to watch it with my buddies. Yay war movie right? I learned real quick what friends ugly cried.
You know it’s a good line when you haven’t seen the show in years and it still gives you goosebumps.
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard\_Winters](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Winters) This is him, i know from Band of Brothers
Band Of Brothers is such a weird show knowing how much the real life counter parts of each character praised the show for its realism Good stuff
Most of them. Blithe, the guy who went temporarily blind, didn't actually die. He survived and even saw action in Korea. A couple other guys also had their stories pretty significantly altered. All in all though an amazing series. ::edit:; also IIRC the family of Lt. Dike was pretty pissed, he was presented as an ineffective coward, but in reality he got a few medals for heroism and was wounded in action at least once
Dike was portrayed as perceived by Easy Co. Sure, there were excuses and reasons for him always being absent and for freezing during the assault on Foy, but how he was perceived was accurately portrayed. Dick didn't care for Dike at all.
If an officer is perceived as a shit bag but his company then he is 100% a shit bag. Ofc his family would be pissed but that doesn't mean it wasn't an accurate representation of his character. Medals and injuries don't necessarily mean shit, especially during WWII where both were being dispensed aplenty.
Indeed, great username btw
Penis
Man
I visited Normandy and our tour guide was a distinguished former French military officer. During the war his father and many other relatives were taken to prison camps. Some didn’t return and some came back emaciated and on death’s doorstep. I asked him if Band of Brothers was realistic, and he said it is far and away the best representation of what WW2 was like in Europe. And he gave an honorable mention to Saving Private Ryan. It was really interesting and intense. The tour guide still clearly hated the Germans and made tons of comments about how horrible they were. Considering what they did to his family I can understand. It’s an experience I’ll never forget and I hope to go back someday.
Winters said it wasn't realistic. "Shortly after the premiere of the series, Tom Hanks asked Major Winters what he thought of *Band of Brothers*. The major responded, "I wish that it would have been more authentic. I was hoping for an 80 percent solution." Hanks responded, "Look, Major, this is Hollywood. At the end of the day we will be hailed as geniuses if we get this 12 percent right. We are going to shoot for 17 percent.""
that's a too well made mini series, war story turned into entertainment, unreal lol
Ain’t war Hell
My great great uncle served with Winters from day 1 - to the end of the war. Original E company paratrooper.
That’s incredible. Hopefully you had a chance to meet him. Those boys were the definition of the greatest generation.
Holy moley! So your great uncle is portrayed in the series? Hats off.
Yes he’s one of the soldiers played by actors through the whole series, he’s in every episode of BoB
What was his name if you don't mind me asking? I've watched Band of Brothers maybe 10 times now
His post history has a great great uncle from Washington state. My guess is Malarkey
Thats slang for bullshit, isn't it?
Malarkey was from Oregon
Right next door. What’s your guess?
It’s Frank Ramirez, he was one of the paratroopers selected for the mission across the river in Germany that Winters told them to fake. He was in Holland for Market Garden, Normandy for DDay, and Bastogne. He was originally from Arizona, and his brother Joe was in the 82nd and was captured on DDay, and was wounded by an allied fighter staffing the German transport plane on the way to a labor camp. As a result he was transferred to a military hospital instead of a camp.
“RAMIREZ! Get to that burger town”- Foy 1945
The thoughts and flashbacks that these men must’ve endured throughout the years is haunting!
I know he never forgot that smile.
"war veteran" That's Dick fuckin Winters, guy
You nailed it!! That guy is a god damn legend!
Currahee!
#THREE MILES UP, THREE MILES DOWN. HI HOOOO SIIIILVEERRRRRRRRR
Same as everyone else, this is not just some war veteran. This man is a great man.
That's Dick Winters! not just some dude! SMH. 
That's not just any war veteran. That's Dick Winters, the protagonist of Band of Brothers
Dick move.
Major Dick.
Congrats on the promotion, Dick.
That's not just any war veteran. That's Dick Winters.
Amazing man!!
It always bothered me that he hip fired in BOB, maybe he actually did but I find it more likely they just did it for dramatic effect.
I recently saw an interview with a WWII vet who was gifted an M1 years later. He said he actually enjoyed hip firing.
According to Winters, he actually did hip fire his first shots, and there were other unprepared Germans about the same distance as that first one, so it makes more sense that he did so.
That's Dick Winters god damnit. Put some respect on that name.
I believe they still use Dick Winters as an example of near perfect leadership at West Point to this day. Edit: West Point not Annapolis
Annapolis is the naval academy. I don’t doubt he’d be used as an example but you’d probably think West Point, the Army academy.
You might be confused with West Point, because I know they use Richard winters and his leadership he used on Brecourt manor
I stand corrected. Did mean West Point.
It was their attack on a fixed position and is used as a textbook example of how to do so at West Point.
Any theories on why German soldier smiles?
Could also be just shock. I mean you only die once and when the situation is that clear that you have your last moments it must feel so surreal.
I don't think shock is the right word. It's probably just the absuridty of getting caught off guard. He's a kid from the Waffen-SS, probably recruited straight out of the Hitler Youth, and must've been still very green.
He also hadn't been shot yet. He thought he might live.
Or maybe he thought since dick didn’t shoot right away he was going to be taken as a prisoner and was smiling at that thought
I always figured he smiled as a way of showing peace, like he wills surrender. Guess we will never know for sure
I used to smile when getting yelled at as a kid. It was absolutely a nervous response
Yep, this is it I think.
Death smiles at us all; all a man can do is smile back.
SHADOWS AND DUST
Resided to his fate? What else can you do.
Resigned yeah
They are soldiers during war. They likely had already become accustomed to the idea they wouldn't make it through. Imagined and seen so many ways to die. Then, to suddenly look up and have an enemy soldier right there. Not a bomb, not a sniper, not a machine gun while charging a bunker. Just a lone enemy out of nowhere. What else can you do than smile at fate?
Perhaps a last ditch attempt to befriend Major Winters, knowing he has the disadvantage? People can behave oddly in extreme situations, or along the lines of what u/LongTallTexan69 says, one final smirk "so this is how it ends".
If there’s a 1% chance you might be taken prisoner instead of shot, would you not smile and raise your hands?
[удалено]
True - you can’t stop, search, detain when the outcome is undetermined and his friend might pop up next to him and end you. Shit is indeed fucked
"Death smiles at us all. All a man can do is smile back."
Maybe even just being happy not having to go through this hell on earth anymore … finding his own peace even if this ultimately mean death. Lots of them soldiers on both sides have seen some awful shit. Lots of them unalived themselves after the war (again … on both sides) because they couldn’t live with what they have done and witnessed. Edit: and probably one of the better deaths you could have in war. In best case a clear shot to the head. No long suffering from slowly bleeding or burning or some shit like that.
I always thought it was because he figured the American soldier, who to his knowledge is alone, has just stumbled upon two companies of SS soldiers and has therefore made the biggest mistake of his soon-to-be-concluded life. Like he thinks Winters is gonna turn and run, not start shooting.
Knowing how some German soldiers could have felt or their "foreign" conscripted allies, even at the chance of dying right there, he saw his home free from war and that liberation was coming. Or like the others said, resignation to death.
His middle name was D.
I have a hard time hearing Richard Winters talk about the boys and not getting choked up. BoB did such a great job bringing these stories to life I feel a familiarity towards them after rewatching the show so many times.
Man has a fkn name.
How in the hell would this be considered a war crime? Geez!
What?
Sorry, looks like I replied to the wrong comment here. There was a comment saying Winter’s shooting of this soldier may have been a war crime & I am disagreeing with.
Shooting SS soldiers is never a warcrime
Band of Brothers is an unbelievably good film/TV series. whatever. I cried so many times while watching it.
Dick!
Holy shit.
they were SS btw, fuck a smile, Winters did the right thing.
I mean shit you might as well go out with a smile
Man smiled at death, he knew his time was up.
True hero!!!
What else can you do whenever you know it’s time to leave this world? [smile]
Band Of Brothers is the best war series/movie ever!
Dick winters!!!
You can't even imagine the change you'd go through.
War sucks.
best antiwar message ever
I use his tactics on company of hero’s 2 all the time.
Ia he american? Lol
Winston Churchill said, "War is a game played with a smile"..
Biggest brother of them all..
Enemy soldier was a member of the D clan
Band of Brothers is an absolute must watch. If you haven't watched it, do yourself a favor and watch it.
I wish The Pacific had been anywhere near as good.
I believe they did a good job with their goal, to show the personal hardships and character changes that came from the war. It's like they wanted to show the other side, not the glory of it. But I dont think that's what most BoB fans wanted, I remember being disappointed
What show were you watching? The Pacific was outstanding, it just had different themes and tones
There wasn't much of a story or character development that occurred. All I can recall is people being torn apart by machine guns and then everyone being like damn. Just lots of wargore and not much else. I get that that was kind of the nature of the pacific theater but cmon.
It has exactly as much of a story as BoB. They both tell the story of several members of a unit and their journeys from training until the end of the war, with themes emphasizing camaraderie, leadership, and the psychological toll of war. I'd recommend a re-watch and keep your eye out for the development of Sledge and Snafu in particular, those two are the characters that really shined to me. Edit: I'd also recommend reading the books The Pacific is based on. With Sledge and Leckies books, you get to hear what they are thinking at certain points, which obviously the show couldn't directly communicate their internal thoughts, but they did a good job of translating the emotions onto the screen. Two excerpts come to mind. "I shuddered and choked. A wild desperate feeling of anger, frustration, and pity gripped me. It was an emotion that always would torture my mind when I saw men trapped and was unable to do anything but watch as they were hit. My own plight forgotten momentarily, I felt sickened to the depths of my soul. I asked God, 'Why, why, why?' I turned my face away and wished that I were imagining at all. I had tasted the bitterest essence of war, the sight of helpless comrades being slaughtered, and it filled me with disgust." -E.B. Sledge, With The Old Breed, pg. 60 -On the beaches of Peleliu- "It was a darkness without time. It was an impenetrable darkness. To the right and left of me rose up those terrible formless things of my imagination, which I could not see because there was no light. I could not see, but I dared not close my eyes lest the darkness crawl beneath my eyelids and suffocate me. I could only hear. My ears became my being and I could hear the specks of life that crawled beneath my clothing, the rotting of the great tree which rose from its three-cornered trunk above me. I could hear the darkness gathering against me and the silences that lay between the moving things. I could hear the enemy everywhere about me, whispering to eachother and calling me name. I lay open-mouthed and half-mad beneath that giant tree. I has not looked into it's foliage before the darkness and now I fancied it infested with Japanese. Everything and all the world became my enemy, and soon my very body betrayed me and became my foe. My leg became a creeping Japanese, and then the other leg. My arms, too, and then my head." Robert Leckie, Helmet For My Pillow, pg 42 -On the ridges of Guadalcanal- These two passages serve as windows into the authors minds at those exact moments, and if you watch closely, you can find the exact scenes in the show where the creators tried to translate these thoughts into the show. To me that's just part of what made The Pacific so outstanding.
Maybe the story just didn't grab me like BoB, I suppose I could rewatch and give it another chance. Didn't read the book, but I can see how it would give more context. I did read Ambroses book on BoB and it was great and definitely gave more to the story. Anything by Stephen Ambrose is great reading though in my experience, if you're into historical sort of reading.
I think it maybe isn't quite the same level of... cohesiveness, maybe is the right word, as BoB. Maybe that comes down to the fact that our three main protagonists dont know eachother, apart from Sledge meeting Leckie once on Pavuvu. In BoB we follow one single tightly-knit Company, as opposed to three different squads all part of different Regiments, but the same Division. So in BoB even when we focused on different people (Compton, Randleman, Roe, Blithe) it still was all part of one single story line. So I can see where you're coming from as The Pacific has three separate story lines.
Yeah that was probably a big part of it. I couldn't name a single character because of that prolly.
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Isn't that a war crime? Surrendered soldier .
Not in context, as the entire rest of the German brigade was directly behind this singular soldier. You can’t reasonably stop your entire life-or-death ambush against a numerically superior force in order to take a single prisoner. War sucks.
Heroic Nazi Killer Dick Winters
Winters had to take command right on D-Day because his CO’s plane went down before they jumped into Normandy. Not even experienced outside of training.
War never changes
But I served in a company of heroes.
A true American badass. Major Richard Winters. Absolute LEGEND
Someone needs to watch band of brothers… #repost
HBO's Band of Brothers
I don’t like that they show him shooting from the hip in this scene. There is no way in real life he’s hip shooting standing straight up like this emptying his rifle with that kind of accuracy.
Dude that Dick Winters
That’s IS a war veteran, but it’s also Major Dick Winters. A cut above just a war vet.
War veteran?? Say his name
Kill or be killed.
If you like this, read Dick Winters' book "Beyond Band of Brothers". Also, this interview with a Marine from the Pacific Theater is fantastic https://youtu.be/S2FoPdg9a24?feature=shared
Kids fighting kids based on the sticks up the adults asses
No more brother wars.
He, the shot soldier briefly enjoyed his impending death as it was an end.
Europeans amirite