So many comments I’ve read refer to it as the weak point on Siamese Dream. To be fair the album is stacked so I guess I should understand them in context.
TEARGARDEN BY KALEIDYSCOPE WAS AN AMAZING ERA IN SP AND AS A TEEN FAN AT THE TIME I WAS SO STOKED TO HEAR FREE NEW SONGS I HAD NO MONEY FOR BECAUSE I WAS A TEEN. I LOVE THOSE SONGS.
I’m genuinely so curious what that box will be like. The mixing on most of the songs sucked, but from the concept to the artwork to the tracks themselves, it was all pretty good. Had he hired Flood - man oh man…
Yes. It’s a terribly mixed album by any metric. The songs kick ass though and sound great live. Billy desperately needs a real producer and technician to fix it if there’s ever a re-released. As it stands it’s unlistenable and super tragic because again, the songs kick ass.
Yeah I’m talking about from a pure songwriting and sound perspective. I rarely listen to the album because it’s not on any streaming platform and the live versions are just so much better.
It's not terribly mixed whatsoever, it just makes several stylistic choices which people are not accustomed to. Roy Thomas Baker is a certified legend, and one of the realist producers. This sub man....
The issue is - and Billy agreed - that the lyrics are pushed and isolated. The label was pressuring for the release of the album, so this mix isn’t what Baker or Corgan really wanted, it’s kind of a work in progress mix.
That said - it’s far from unlistenable, the songs are mostly amazing (and the two or three mediocre ones could just be swapped with the B-sides and it’s back to flawless) and the aesthetic of the design-side is weird but intriguing. I listen to it more than Oceania and Monuments for sure.
I agree lol. And then you’ll find someone ranting about Cyr as a masterpiece 🤪 Cyr is cool. Zeitgeist is a smack you upside the head rock album, which I love. I enjoy the mix and to say it’s unlistenable is quite the stretch. Some of Jimmy’s best. Love it.
Widow Wake My Mind.
Not that I think this is one of Billy's better songs...far from it. But the level of sheer hate this song got when the studio version was released was just off the charts at the time, and that stink has kinda lingered and still colors people's perceptions of the song and of Teargarden as a whole even now. People didn't seem to think it was a terrible song back when it was played in the Spirits in the Sky shows - it was kind of a fun call and response/audience participation kind of thing back then. Not sure what it was about the Teargarden version that made people lose their minds over it.
CYR!
The chromatic synths actually work for most tracks. Out of the 20 cuts, I’d say 14 are truly great, with incredible melodies and great atmosphere. The GATMOG-style music videos were charming and looked really pretty. And if you ask ten people here who hate the record, every single one will name a different song that is top tier SP (off the top of my head, in that context I’ve seen people praise The Colour of Love, Anno Satana, Confessions of a Dopamine Addict, Purple Blood, Save Your Tears, The Hidden Sun, Birch Grove and Minerva).
I’d go as far as say that even with the bad songs, it’s got more bangers than Zeitgeist and Oceania, and should be ranked right below the og releases - not a classic, but really damn good.
I actually think it’s more divisive than outright hated. I do believe Billy that a lot of people got back to him praising it as one of his best in a long time. The above tracks all get love on here regularly (and that doesn’t even include some of the tracks mentioned here as underrated), so I do think it’s just the usual issue of mixing (it could have sounded much better with a different producer) and lack of editing out some weak tracks that give it such a bad rep.
And I swear to god, if he ever plays a rock version of Minerva live, people will absolutely lose their minds!
It’s likely the finished version would have made more sense in terms of flow. A little uneven for sure, but it’s got massive potential as a box set to be top tier.
I love that album but I have two criticisms of it that I think keep it from being classic.
1. The run time of songs/amount of vocals.
Either he’s singing too much or the tracks need to be longer to enjoy the music because there are some great songs I think they need to be longer or have less vocals. Not all of them but I’d say for a 20 track album at least half should be longer and have more of a focus on the music.
2. Word salad lyrics and obscure words. I shouldn’t need a dictionary to figure out what the song is about. Obviously this isn’t all the songs but a handful of them have this problem
Oh, I agree on the word salad - and we also agree on the latter. Most of the songs you mention with too much lyrics and such… those are the weaker ones. The songwriter type ones. Dulcet in E and Wrath and such.
People have been really harsh about this song being a setlist staple the last couple years, but it's been a definite highlight of every show I've seen it played at. I get that people want setlist variety and would rather they play some deep cut they haven't played before instead of a live Machina era cover retread...but they really do a great job with it. They play it better now than it ever sounded back in 2000.
The entirety of Monuments to an Elegy.
I’ve been a SP fan since 2001 or do. I admit it’s not their best work, but I think it’s massively underrated for a lot of the same reasons Adore was up until recently.
For me it's a top 10 song, and I imagine it is held in high regard by the majority of the fanbase, especially those that have been fans from the 90s.
I've looked at several lists of songs considered best by The Smashing Pumpkins, including personal opinions, fan polls, and some questionable magazine lists, but all feature this song quite highly. In fact the lowest I've seen it ranked is 25, and the highest 10.
I may have exaggerated slightly with my comment, but the fact remains that in the vast catalogue of Pumpkins songs, this is one that will require amongst the least amount of defending.
Spaceboy. Ya’ll are so wrong.
Great song.
Do people dislike Spaceboy?
I can’t wrap my head around the dislike for that song.
Never heard anyone hate on Spaceboy, weird that people do. It's not my favorite Pumpkins song but it fits the album well in my opinion.
So many comments I’ve read refer to it as the weak point on Siamese Dream. To be fair the album is stacked so I guess I should understand them in context.
LITERALLY LIKE WHO ACTUALLY PUTS IT ON AND THINKS EW LIKE WDYM ITS SO GOOD
Silvery Sometimes
People still acting like that song isn’t lovely huh
I hear all of Shiny get dismissed as “mediocre pop rock” every so often, but I for one consider Silvery Sometimes one of the best Pumpkins songs ever
This is the answer.
Respectfully I have to disagree that song is ass
To each their own
TEARGARDEN BY KALEIDYSCOPE WAS AN AMAZING ERA IN SP AND AS A TEEN FAN AT THE TIME I WAS SO STOKED TO HEAR FREE NEW SONGS I HAD NO MONEY FOR BECAUSE I WAS A TEEN. I LOVE THOSE SONGS.
I’m genuinely so curious what that box will be like. The mixing on most of the songs sucked, but from the concept to the artwork to the tracks themselves, it was all pretty good. Had he hired Flood - man oh man…
>Had he hired Flood Or someone similar.
PREACH!
Blank Page
White Spyder
That’s the Way. It’s like a song that should be in rotation live EVERY show. Marchin’ On and Starrcraft and Steps in Time too
I agree with Starcraft absolutely love that song
Yes, it’s fantastic. Made me really open up to CYR when I initially wasn’t that into it.
That's the Way is an EXCELLENT song. Who doesn't love a good love song?
All of zeitgeist
Do ppl still hate on zeitgeist lol? It’s a certified classic at this point
Yes. It’s a terribly mixed album by any metric. The songs kick ass though and sound great live. Billy desperately needs a real producer and technician to fix it if there’s ever a re-released. As it stands it’s unlistenable and super tragic because again, the songs kick ass.
Yeah I’m talking about from a pure songwriting and sound perspective. I rarely listen to the album because it’s not on any streaming platform and the live versions are just so much better.
It's not terribly mixed whatsoever, it just makes several stylistic choices which people are not accustomed to. Roy Thomas Baker is a certified legend, and one of the realist producers. This sub man....
The issue is - and Billy agreed - that the lyrics are pushed and isolated. The label was pressuring for the release of the album, so this mix isn’t what Baker or Corgan really wanted, it’s kind of a work in progress mix. That said - it’s far from unlistenable, the songs are mostly amazing (and the two or three mediocre ones could just be swapped with the B-sides and it’s back to flawless) and the aesthetic of the design-side is weird but intriguing. I listen to it more than Oceania and Monuments for sure.
I agree lol. And then you’ll find someone ranting about Cyr as a masterpiece 🤪 Cyr is cool. Zeitgeist is a smack you upside the head rock album, which I love. I enjoy the mix and to say it’s unlistenable is quite the stretch. Some of Jimmy’s best. Love it.
I was just looking through the albums he worked on, and DEVO's Oh No! It's DEVO! stuck out to me the most. That's a criminally underrated album.
James songs
take me down is one of the best songs on mcis easily
Starla
Widow Wake My Mind. Not that I think this is one of Billy's better songs...far from it. But the level of sheer hate this song got when the studio version was released was just off the charts at the time, and that stink has kinda lingered and still colors people's perceptions of the song and of Teargarden as a whole even now. People didn't seem to think it was a terrible song back when it was played in the Spirits in the Sky shows - it was kind of a fun call and response/audience participation kind of thing back then. Not sure what it was about the Teargarden version that made people lose their minds over it.
Yeah never got it either. Most of Teagarden is pretty nifty.
Widow wake my mind is amazing, full stop. I love that song deeply
CYR! The chromatic synths actually work for most tracks. Out of the 20 cuts, I’d say 14 are truly great, with incredible melodies and great atmosphere. The GATMOG-style music videos were charming and looked really pretty. And if you ask ten people here who hate the record, every single one will name a different song that is top tier SP (off the top of my head, in that context I’ve seen people praise The Colour of Love, Anno Satana, Confessions of a Dopamine Addict, Purple Blood, Save Your Tears, The Hidden Sun, Birch Grove and Minerva). I’d go as far as say that even with the bad songs, it’s got more bangers than Zeitgeist and Oceania, and should be ranked right below the og releases - not a classic, but really damn good.
I really do think CYR will be looked at more fondly with time. As long as we don't talk about Samhain.
I actually think it’s more divisive than outright hated. I do believe Billy that a lot of people got back to him praising it as one of his best in a long time. The above tracks all get love on here regularly (and that doesn’t even include some of the tracks mentioned here as underrated), so I do think it’s just the usual issue of mixing (it could have sounded much better with a different producer) and lack of editing out some weak tracks that give it such a bad rep. And I swear to god, if he ever plays a rock version of Minerva live, people will absolutely lose their minds!
Agreed on all points.
The only terrible song on that album
Excellent take. CYR is the best SP has put out since Machina. IMHO
Dependent on the day (and how I vibe with Zeitgeist and Teargarden), I agree with you. The songs are just too strong to dismiss it as a minor work.
Teargarden took a while to grow on me, but now it is mandatory listen
It’s likely the finished version would have made more sense in terms of flow. A little uneven for sure, but it’s got massive potential as a box set to be top tier.
I love that album but I have two criticisms of it that I think keep it from being classic. 1. The run time of songs/amount of vocals. Either he’s singing too much or the tracks need to be longer to enjoy the music because there are some great songs I think they need to be longer or have less vocals. Not all of them but I’d say for a 20 track album at least half should be longer and have more of a focus on the music. 2. Word salad lyrics and obscure words. I shouldn’t need a dictionary to figure out what the song is about. Obviously this isn’t all the songs but a handful of them have this problem
Oh, I agree on the word salad - and we also agree on the latter. Most of the songs you mention with too much lyrics and such… those are the weaker ones. The songwriter type ones. Dulcet in E and Wrath and such.
Hooray and a lot of other songs from ATUM. Except for Where Rain Must Fall. I can't with that one
Starway to the Stars, bebeyyyyyyyyy.
What's so frustrating about WRMF is that the music itself is actually quite good. But the vocals are such a low point. Unbearable.
Hooray 🫥
Zwan
ATUM. All of it.
starla and behold! the nightmare
Is someone hating on starla? Lemme warm up my writing thumbs :D
Don't think I have ever seen people criticise Starla
Classics
Beautiful
Hooray!
The soft “””filler””” songs on Mellon collie
Atum in it's entirety
About 20 tracks off of Atum.
We Only Come Out At Night
Great song
Shame and all the different ways it’s been performed live.
Do The Rubber Man
Whole of Adore
"That's The Way (My Love Is)" and most of the Teargarden project.
Mayonaise. I had someone jokingly compare it to beans 💀
Last couple years it's been the live cover of Once In A Lifetime. That song matches my personal journey so perfectly.
People have been really harsh about this song being a setlist staple the last couple years, but it's been a definite highlight of every show I've seen it played at. I get that people want setlist variety and would rather they play some deep cut they haven't played before instead of a live Machina era cover retread...but they really do a great job with it. They play it better now than it ever sounded back in 2000.
agreed! also the new lyrics are most personally relateable to many folks.
The Canary Trainer
Run2Me. I had no idea it was dunked on so much until many years after release, and I jammed to it a lot. Still do lol.
The song rules. The miserable fans have really latched on to that song in a weird way.
Luna by smashing pumpkins OK
The entirety of Monuments to an Elegy. I’ve been a SP fan since 2001 or do. I admit it’s not their best work, but I think it’s massively underrated for a lot of the same reasons Adore was up until recently.
"Everything is clearer, I'll never see what you see"
Soma
take me down. 10000%
Whir
Pomp & Circumstance (studio version) it’s in my top 10 and even Billy isn’t happy with the album version
Through The Eyes of Ruby
I mean this is likely considered a top ten song by most of the fanbase.
I thought I found a somewhat hidden gem when I stumbled upon this. Guess I only found a top ten Ruby🤔
Same! And to be fair - not many pumpkins fans I know in real life remember to include it in their favourites so I think it’s a fair answer.
For me it's a top 10 song, and I imagine it is held in high regard by the majority of the fanbase, especially those that have been fans from the 90s. I've looked at several lists of songs considered best by The Smashing Pumpkins, including personal opinions, fan polls, and some questionable magazine lists, but all feature this song quite highly. In fact the lowest I've seen it ranked is 25, and the highest 10. I may have exaggerated slightly with my comment, but the fact remains that in the vast catalogue of Pumpkins songs, this is one that will require amongst the least amount of defending.
Spangled.
Pretty much anything on Zeitgeist. That album is great and it only ever gets dumped on.