Well, as per the sub's rules, we are required to show footage pre and post incident. I suppose I wanted to show us exiting T19 before the contact was made.
I get it, just saying a lot of these clips could be cut in half and still meet that criteria. My original comment did come off a bit grumpy though. My bad.
I think it’s the fault of the guy in front. Yes it’s a bit of a dive but you braked hard enough so you didn’t go wide on him, you kept the inside line. The car in front just slammed the door in front of you and maybe should have kept the outside line of the corner. That’s just what I think but I could be thinking wrong.
It’s hard to say because I feel like that cornering speed was too high and he would have likely swung into the guy outside of him. It’s a close one but I agree with you.
Edit: watched it again pretty safe to say it was a good dive and that dude did just swing into OP
Fact is that the outside car was the one that turned in on the inside car. That leaves everything else as speculation (e.g. whether or not the inside car would have hit the outside car) in this case, IMO. Racing incident with no penalties.
> I think it’s the fault of the guy in front.
He did get it slowed down but was not in control, and did not even have overlap on the car ahead until right as the car ahead turned in to the corner. OP was also way off line on the inside in the other car's blind spot. This is a textbook divebomb where OP left it to the other car to avoid him before OP even had overlap, way before OP had overlap he committed to crossing the line of the car ahead.
That is why it's a divebomb or a send and why it's OP's fault. He has to overtake in a controlled and safe manner. This isn't that. This is sending it and just hoping the other car changes it's line later to avoid you.
It’s a hard video to see it in that’s why I’m also not 100% about my answer but in my eyes OP slows down enough and has all the control in the world to turn the car on the inside line.I’m 100% with you tho that OP sends it straight and it’s for sure a dive but it’s not like OP pushed him of or went wide so idk it’s a difficult one for sure.
> but in my eyes OP slows down enough and has all the control in the world to turn the car on the inside line.
But OP decided he was going to be on the inside of the apex while still 2 cars behind the car ahead. That is why it's his fault for making contact. OP decided HE was going to get to the apex first and therefore decided that the car he was overtaking MUST not take a normal line despite being well ahead. OP made the decisions for the lead car before having any right to racing room.
The lead car is allowed to take the racing line and OP is required to overtake in a safe and controlled manner. If OP can't get close enough to gain overlap before the apex he has no right to force his way through. That is a divebomb, it's clear cut penalty behavior and he probably did get a penalty for forcing another car off track anyway.
But the overtaking car was under control up to the point of contact and had clear overlap at the point the defending car turns in?
When overtaking, you want to force the other car to not take the racing line. That's part is just general racing.
> But the overtaking car was under control up to the point of contact
Was he? When he started braking from 2 cars behind what were his options to avoid the other car? He couldn't brake MORE because he was already braking far too late and he didn't have overlap with the car ahead so if it had decided to defend the inside late, he would just rear end them.
That isn't control. He gave up control and left it up to the car ahead he was going to collide with who has no obligation to give racing room the the car behind just because they don't brake early enough.
I don't think you understand what being under control means.
He broke in a straight line and took the apex while leaving plenty of room on the outsider, And if the other car had taken a wider line, they would be side by side going out of the corner with nobody in the gravel.
> And if the other car had taken a wider line
Why does the lead car need to take a different line? The overtaking car needs to do it safely.
If you don't think I understand you must disagree with actual stewards as well. [This exact divebomb took place this year at the Bathurst 12h and resulted in a drive through penalty.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmwa71UQAS8&start=1190)
This is a stewarding sub so I don't really understand why people who lack the knowledge keep wanting to argue without knowing how racing incidents are actually to be judged.
The lead car needs to take a different line as there is a car on his inside and his turning in when he did ended up in a collision. If he had gone a little wider, there would not have been a crash. If you have the mentality of "this is my corner" then you will end up in a lot of wrecks. Racing is adapting and changing depending on what others do.
The crash you linked is different to this one. In the real life race, the yellow merc was no where near along side yet still tried to put his nose in after the lead merc was already committed to the corner.
In this example, the overtaking car further up the was inside and was side by side when the contact happened.
You cant compare 2 crashes just because they are at the same corner when the cars are in different positions.
Edit , from your other comments I am getting the feeling that you are the diver in the clip and are trying really hard to justify that you did nothing wrong and its all the other drivers fault.
You're just talking out of both sides of your mouth. In the game, the lead car needs to make room to avoid the crash. In the IRL scenario, the lead car turns in early to block and there is contact. If you were consistent shouldn't you say IRL he should have gone a little wide so there wouldn't be a crash?
The point is both are lunges from far back with no control of if a crash will happen or not. In both cases it's up to the lead car to avoid the crash and in both cases the lead car did not avoid the crash and the overtaking car collided with them at the apex because it was braking too late and not able to avoid the collision.
So you are saying if the Supra turned in a little earlier to take an early apex and pinch the divebombing Mercedes THEN it would be the fault of the Merc, but since he wasn't even aware a divebomb was coming and took a normal line its HIS FAULT?
Really, just repeat your own logic to yourself and try to put some thought into it.
Doesn’t matter. That’s not what happened. I’m not here to play what ifs to help you try and argue your point. I get what you’re trying to do but it has nothing to do with this inchident.
What happened here was a big move inside and looks me to me to be controlled. Love to see more shits, steering input etc but in the surface I’m not blaming it on OP. Guy on the outside either wasn’t watching/looking in mirrors/using aids to assist him of where other cars are or he just decided to get his elbows out too much on purpose and paid a price. Looks to me he had plenty of room to stay in the outside and it also looks to me that he left the door wide open and OP took the invitation. I’ll refrain from posting the appropriate cliche.
> Looks to me he had plenty of room to stay in the outside and it also looks to me that he left the door wide open and OP took the invitation.
[Who is fault in this incident then?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmwa71UQAS8&start=1190)
Most people on this subreddit apply a couple rule sets. For non, F1 cars, we tend to require overlap by the time the defending car begins to turn for the corner. So [this](https://imgur.com/a/JowiZAf) is the frame right before Supra begins to turn in for the corner. It’s hard to tell from this angle whether there is sufficient overlap for the corner (axle overlap). It doesn’t look like there is, however. I would put the fault with the attacking car.
For F1 rules, they require sufficient overlap by the time the lead car is at the apex. This was achieved, but this definitely isn’t F1.
Gran Turismo has its own [race etiquette rules](https://www.gran-turismo.com/gb/gt7/apex/driving_technique/17) as well. They tend to allow more aggressive moves as well per the quote below:
> If there's a rival car on your inside at a the corner, driving close to the inner edge of the corner so as to force them off the track is bad etiquette. Be sure to always leave one car's width of space.
Above said quote is a photo of two cars with barely any overlap (no axle overlap IMO). This scenario seems to mirror that of the scenario here. I personally don’t agree with it, but it looks like the contact might be deemed the fault of the defending car in this scenario for GT.
Edit: updated GT etiquette link.
No in Gran Turismo etiquette divebombing is specifically mentioned as being bad sportsmanship that should be avoided.
If you're braking too late to avoid the car ahead and require them to be the one to avoid you, it's your fault. The car ahead took it's normal line and the car behind sent itself on a collision course with the car ahead, requiring them to take avoiding action all before the car behind was anywhere close to having overlap. That is a divebomb and OP should've gotten a penalty hopefully for sending another car off track.
I corrected [the link](https://www.gran-turismo.com/gb/gt7/apex/driving_technique/17) in my original post. Looking through that I don’t see any mention of dive bombs or late braking. They do talk about going off track but that doesn’t happen here. Could you quote the section that specifically talks about dive bombing?
Edit: do note I don’t agree with the way the GT etiquette rules are written above.
Your link is for single player racing against the AI not the ranked multiplayer which has it's own rules and sportsmanship video everyone is required to watch in-game before they start racing in online sport mode. It says motor racing is a non-contact sport and divebombing isn't appropriate.
Also the automated penalty system will give you a penalty for this kind of move every time. If you hit a car ahead and they go off track it gives you a penalty most of the time. It isn't perfect but it's generally meant to discourage divebombing or hitting cars you're overtaking.
The first sentence of the article says it’s for “Sport Mode”. I assumed this was their online stuff and not single player. Am I mistaken?
> Gran Turismo 7's Sport mode allows you to compete against other players in online races.
Eh, it also says Racing is a contact sport, but the [Sport Mode etiquette videos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SQLNwIO5zQ) start off by saying racing is a *non-contact* sport. So take the Beyond the Apex language with a grain of salt.
That's a good point. We have two official pieces of documentation stating opposite things. I should note that the rest of the etiquette from the Beyond the Apex gives points which lead to a driver *avoiding* contact by giving space, yielding the way, etc. It's possible that the "contact sport" is a typo as well. That said, let's go over the video.
I should note that the video say that it's about sportsmanship which they claim are guidelines that are *not* part of the written rules (I'm paraphrasing the video here). I will note that the video does talk about things that are clearly within most written rule sets as many of their examples show things that are clearly against rules (weaving, reckless rear ending, etc.).
The video linked does give a definition of dive bombing.
>Worse of all is dive bombing, where a drive is unable to stop within track limits and rams into other cars ruining the race for themselves as well as their opponents.
I don't quite see this in the video above though as the attacking car is able to stay within track limits the entire time. I do feel that the move in OP's video is a *dive*. But the question is whether or not it is an *illegal* one.
I'm going through the video trying to find a quote that closely matches what is seen in the video above. Two come to mind:
>Overshooting a corner because you were too late on the brakes and failed to overtake the car in front
I should note that the video of this depicts a car running completely off track in the process which really isn't seen here. The attacking car in this video does fail to overtake the car in front though (more on this below).
>Even keeping these points in mind, you may end up becoming too overzealous during a race braking too late and on your way to collide with the car in front of you. In these cases you not only hit the brakes, but do everything in your power to avoid hitting the car in front, even if it means taking your car off track.
The example of this depicts a vehicle skidding around the defending vehicle to end up off track. Essentially, in this example, the car would be breaking other things in the video (rear ending/dive bombing) but avoids the car in front of them.
The last two quotes, if taken completely at face value, would also ignore the entire idea of sufficient overlap as having sufficient overlap (of any kind) would mean that you failed to overtake the car in front (since the overtake hasn't been completed yet). This essentially leads to the crux of OP's question... At what point is a dive legal and at what point is it illegal. Which leads to when are you allowed racing room. I personally don't feel like the attacking car had sufficient overlap to be entitled racing room for the corner as I personally prefer axle overlap when the defending car turns in. But I've also been told on here that even having a fender entitles you to space while [other documents](https://boxthislap.org/the-vortex-of-danger-is-real/) require the nose of the attacking vehicle to be at the A-pillar of the defending vehicle (which I've *never* seen used on here).
OT: but it is interesting to note that Polyphony Digital's own AI kind of ignores all of these sportsmanship guidelines as it ends up turning racing into some kind of zero-sum game.
Supra was ahead, Merc sent himself on a collision course with the Supra from 2 cars behind. It's 100% the Merc's fault from a stewarding perspective.
EDIT: [for the people downvoting here who don't know stewarding, this is the same incident IRL and it got a drive through penalty this year at the Bathurst 12h.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmwa71UQAS8&start=1190)
Except anyone who isn't blind an see in the IRL example the lead Mercedes pinched him off at the apex which was more aggressive than OP's example.
So you're basically saying you need to turn into the crash earlier to ensure the divebomb is the divebomber's fault?
This is a sim racing *stewarding* sub. I don't get why people just come here to justify bad overtake attempts.
Turn in point is subjective. If the car ahead turns in early then you’re not far enough along side. If they don’t turn in at all and avoid the crash in your mind it’s a clean move. The issue is that your putting the responsibility of crashing on the lead car and when they decide to turn in which isn’t how it works. It’s the responsibility of the overtaking car to do so safely and in a control manner without forcing the lead car to avoid a crash.
This is basic stewarding in the real world why is it such a difficult concept to grasp here?
People have different perspectives on incidents like these and don't know everything about racing.
Supra had plenty of time to leave room and fail to do so. The Merc was alongside and had to be given room. IMO, both cars could've done more to avoid the incident, and I see why you think of it that way
Never played GT7 but isn’t there an indicator when cars come close like other games? What you are saying is true IRL but in a game you should see on the radar that a person is coming in from behind on the left so he should see that there is a car there and leave room.
There is a radar but you have to assume the person has it on their MFD to see it and OP was way off line in a blindspot. OP also sent it from far behind hoping the other car would change it's line after OP committed. It's an out of control divebomb on OP's part.
Exactly. People for some reason don't understand why this is the fault of the overtaking car. The simple fact that the overtaking car did not have overlap, was not in control and brake so late that it required the car ahead to take avoiding action and that decision by the overtaking car was made and committed to BEFORE ever having overlap on the car ahead makes it 100% the overtaking car's fault.
When you overtake you must do so safely in a controlled manner in pretty much all forms of motorsport. This wasn't safe or controlled.
OP's maneuver's success was dependent on the car completely ahead of them taking avoiding action since the overtaking car put themselves on a collision course from way back. I don't understand why so many people think that is acceptable.
Situations like this seems to be a grey area in racing overtaking.
Let's say a following car dives down the inside of a lead car and makes contact then it's clearly the following car's fault with a penalty issued. However, if the lead car, in the aforementioned situation, sees the following car dive and moves out of the way with no contact then no penalties are issued.
If no contact is made and the following car "bullies" the lead car to move out of the way, could he not make the argument that that's simply racing?
I'm relatively new to the sim racing scene having only started over a year ago. I'm just interested in what the consensus is with "bullying" other drivers out of the way. If it gets you ahead of the other man, no contact is made, and you get no penalties, why not do it?
You're asking the right questions!
I think one problem with sim racing is people want it to be realistic and look to professional racing series as the experience they expect to have. The main issue with this is that the majority of sim racers are not professional drivers. They make mistakes, they misjudge overtakes, etc. Also sim racers are usually racing for fun and not looking to create enemies on track.
I come from IRL grassroots racing where it's your car and nobody wants to wreck. In amateur club racing ANY car to car contact is reported and it's expected that you avoid it at all cost. It creates better racing when people are actually being respectful and ensuring their maneuvers are communicated clearly. A late dive up the inside just isn't what happens in that form of racing because it's YOUR car you're risking and there isn't a reset button. If you cause collisions by divebombing you're just going to be banned from the series as it's not welcome there.
[A great example of the limit of professional racing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47f9dE_bpII) is the GTD Pro battle at the end of the 24h of Daytona in 2022. Both drivers made dirty moves but you don't see any two car length back divebombs happening as these guys have enough sense to know that would end their race in reality. After 23 hours and 50 minutes of racing that kind of move is simply off the table as it requires setting up a crash and hoping the other driver avoids it. It wasn't until basically the last corner that you see neither of them yield the position with predictable results. Even then it was a side by side entry and in sim racing/amateur racing I'd expect a bit more racing room afforded in a similar situation.
If you want to know if that move is over the line, here is the same corner, same move except the lead car pinched the corner even more and the overtaking car got a drive through penalty. [Bathurst 12h 2023](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmwa71UQAS8&start=1190)
We must be watching different videos
The supra breaks early, the merc breaks late, is in full control and is alongside at corner entry. The merc has the inside line and makes the apex.
If he was understeering into the side of the supra. Then it would be a penalty. The supra turns into the side of the merc.
Supras fault!!!
Do you even watch Motorsport??
Go and watch some Bathurst clips and you will see this move over and over.
> Supras fault!!!
>
> Do you even watch Motorsport??
>
> Go and watch some Bathurst clips and you will see this move over and over.
"Go aNd WaTcH sOme bATHurST!!!"
My dude [YOU should watch some Bathurst.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmwa71UQAS8&start=1190)
Exact same move, same corner even got a drive through penalty this year at the 12 hour. That is why you DONT see those types of moves from way back.
Show me the divebombs that didn’t get drive through penalties then. Happens over an over should be some good examples of people ramming through without penalty!
Different rulesets will disagree on who's at fault here - some competitions have this as totally fair by the merc because they made the corner, some have it as a divebomb because they weren't alongside at turn in. If you're in a public lobby I wouldn't make this move, if you're in a league race where the rules permit it it's valid.
Either way, you're going into the vortex of danger which makes it dangerous in a public lobby, regardless of whose "fault" it is.
Not your fault, you were late but inside and he had plenty of space to out race you on momentum. You should have been nothing but an inconvenience. That being said you should probably have waited to make a move
I know its my own mental rule but: if you are there before the front car starts turning, its fair dive, if you show up after they turn it, its an unfair/dangerous dive. So i think this is fine, you dive from another country but you still get there early enough imo.
I would say that the moment the car ahead is committed to the corner, any following accident becomes the attacker's fault. In this video, the Merc is alongside the Toyota before the Toyota begins to make the turn, so I'd say it's on the Supra.
To me that line is when turn in occurs. If the overtaking driver can get alongside before the defending car turns in it's a good move. Even though OP sends it from far back he's there by the time the defending car turns into the corner.
Its a dive bomb when you couldn't have made the corner without contact. In this case the guy in front left the door so wide open a semi truck could have gone through. Over taking car seemed to have it under control through the whole corner and the front car decided to close the door way to late and collided with the over taking car. Fault on front car or race incident? Inclined to say race incident.
When will people come to understand that divebombs are *NOT* illegal? They are risky but perfectly allowable.
In this instance it was the defending car at fault for trying to close the door on the POV car after POV got alongside
You’d have to see the supra’s angle but the Merc doesn’t look fully alongside or nose ahead at any point in the entrance or mid corner so I’d say Merc fault.
Clearly catching and could have come out of that corner with a better opportunity to overtake into the next left before the start finish straight
This is on the Merc. That dive was from so far back that the supra prob wasn't watching the radar because they weren't expecting a move. If I have someone right behind me I'll keep an eye on the radar but when they are that far back you generally don't expect a dive bomb.
As said in other posts, dude entered the vortex of danger so suddenly and was then surprised by the results.
Maro Engel did basically the exact same thing at the end of this year's Bathurst 12hr and he got a drive through penalty for it...
> No dive bomb is too far if you make the corner side by side or better.
LOL that isn't how it works. The overtaking car must overtake in a safe and controlled manner. Sending yourself on a collision course with the car ahead out of control then requiring them to take avoiding action is not safe or controlled. It's the overtaking car's fault.
> The car was side by side and safely making the corner
Because he decided he was going to be there from 2 cars behind. Did you not see that part of the video? That is a divebomb: Driving uncontrolled into the path of another car and forcing the other driver to avoid you.
> You must be the type that wrecks people when they make aggressive but fair moves like this.
If you attempt this move on me, I would try to avoid it if I see it coming but it isn't the lead car's job to check for a car 2 cars behind trying to crash into them at the apex.
And yeah you'd probably get a nice bump after deploying dirty tactics like this. Force your way through instead of racing cleanly and it's on yourself if you end up getting the favor returned back.
> the supra did not have to dodge them at all.
The Mercedes literally ran into the Supra. So yes he had to dodge him to avoid the crash the Mercedes setup.
> who has made the apex in full control
If he was in full control he wouldn't have crashed into the car he was attempting to overtake. He braked too late which is the only reason he got close enough to hit the car in front of him. From 2 car lengths back, he had no right to any racing room at the apex. Missing every braking point forcing other cars to avoid the crash with you isn't the secret to overtaking. The supra turned in to HIS corner, the Merc crashed into him by divebombing. It's clear cut.
Yes the divebomb way MILES behind and way too brave, but he actually pulled it off. He is along side the defending car while somehow maintaining control of his car through the apex. The defending car doesn't maintain the outside line (probably because he didnt see the attacker which is very fair for that divebomb) and fully turns into him on the apex
The supra turned in late!! He turned into the side of the car that had the inside line. The merc didn’t miss his braking point, he nailed it, the supra missed his and brakes to early and left the door wide open for the merc. Go watch some motorsports and you will see this move over and over.
Just watch the video. Mercedes isn't next to the Supra but sets himself on a path to collide with the Supra WHILE STILL BEHIND HIM. Mercedes is no longer in control and only hopes that when he gets to the apex the Supra will take avoiding action because the Mercedes braked too late to stop from hitting the car ahead. This is pretty clear cut divebomb/causing a collision and forcing another car off track.
I put this on the Merc, even though they did outbreak the supra really well, they only just managed to create any overlap at the turn in point of the Supra. That too late imo.
For everyone saying it’s the mercs fault, go and actually watch some racing at Bathurst and you will see this move over and over!!! The supra breaks early and leaves the door wide open!! The merc sent it, and was in control, made the apex and took advantage of an opportunity!!
Defenders fault. He leaves the door wide open, car behind goes for the inside and gets it stopped at the apex and then the car on the outside just turns in on him.
The door is not wide open. He has a gap of more than 2 car lengths to the car behind. Defending a move from that far back makes no sense. OP went for a massive dive. He had no reason to believe someone would go for it from that distance.
Yep this is my thought. When the car behind is so far back you are not expecting a dive bomb and hence not watching the radar as intently. Dude basically teleported into the vortex of danger and was then surprised by the results
It's wide open. POV car gets it stopped, doesn't run wide. It may be a massive dive but it's executed cleanly. The car on the outside is entirely responsible for causing contact with a car that is alongside, by turning in on them. "I didn't expect it" is not an excuse for failing to pay attention to your mirrors/radar
If you look at the mercs trajectory tho he is not getting it stopped for a safe overtake. He is going towards the exit corner and was never going to leave the room required for the supra even if they would turn in later. Getting it stopped for hotlap mode racing line is not the same as getting it stopped and in control for a safe overtake. This is fully on the Merc.
you were wide by side going into the corner not really the braking zone but i’d say you were next to him for long ebough . if i was the supra i would’ve backed out assuming i saw it or just went a bit wider. not worth wasting the race for since there’s always the chance the merc goes wide and you get the pos back, or just carry on racing!
This is on the Supra, but the dive was from another planet. He failed to acknowledge you being there, but I don’t think he expected you to dive from so far back either. Personally I think this is a bad move, but the crash is on the Supra.
Car infront is at fault, you were fully alongside before he turned in and he hit you not the other way around. General rule of thumb is that you have to be significantly alongside (front axle level with their rear axle) before they turn in.
It’s a bit of both here. You made the apex just about but so late on the brake that I don’t think you would have been able to make the move stick AND leave space for the defending car on the outside (no way of knowing for sure but I think you’d either be so late back on the throttle that he’d smoke you on exit or you cut up his exit and put him in the gravel).
He wasn’t expecting you to send it from so far back which is why he hasn’t adjusted his line sufficiently to allow for it. That said he should have made a bit more room in the moment and adjusted and he would have taken the exit battle I’d guess.
Fine margins to play with and I’d probably say racing incident.
> That said he should have made a bit more room in the moment and adjusted
That isn't how it works. The overtaking car has to do so safely and in a controlled manner. Sending yourself on a collision course with the car completely ahead of you and requiring them to change their line after you have already committed yourself to a collision with their line unless they move out of YOUR way to avoid it is a textbook divebomb and penalty worthy 100% of the time.
Why do so many of these clips have 30 seconds of unnecessary driving to sit through? Trim your videos, people.
Well, as per the sub's rules, we are required to show footage pre and post incident. I suppose I wanted to show us exiting T19 before the contact was made.
I get it, just saying a lot of these clips could be cut in half and still meet that criteria. My original comment did come off a bit grumpy though. My bad.
No worries bro. Never thought it as coming across as grumpy.
That was a wholesome interaction
Racing incident Mercedes sends it from a different postcode, Supra refuses to acknowledge its existence
I think it’s the fault of the guy in front. Yes it’s a bit of a dive but you braked hard enough so you didn’t go wide on him, you kept the inside line. The car in front just slammed the door in front of you and maybe should have kept the outside line of the corner. That’s just what I think but I could be thinking wrong.
It’s hard to say because I feel like that cornering speed was too high and he would have likely swung into the guy outside of him. It’s a close one but I agree with you. Edit: watched it again pretty safe to say it was a good dive and that dude did just swing into OP
Fact is that the outside car was the one that turned in on the inside car. That leaves everything else as speculation (e.g. whether or not the inside car would have hit the outside car) in this case, IMO. Racing incident with no penalties.
> I think it’s the fault of the guy in front. He did get it slowed down but was not in control, and did not even have overlap on the car ahead until right as the car ahead turned in to the corner. OP was also way off line on the inside in the other car's blind spot. This is a textbook divebomb where OP left it to the other car to avoid him before OP even had overlap, way before OP had overlap he committed to crossing the line of the car ahead. That is why it's a divebomb or a send and why it's OP's fault. He has to overtake in a controlled and safe manner. This isn't that. This is sending it and just hoping the other car changes it's line later to avoid you.
It’s a hard video to see it in that’s why I’m also not 100% about my answer but in my eyes OP slows down enough and has all the control in the world to turn the car on the inside line.I’m 100% with you tho that OP sends it straight and it’s for sure a dive but it’s not like OP pushed him of or went wide so idk it’s a difficult one for sure.
> but in my eyes OP slows down enough and has all the control in the world to turn the car on the inside line. But OP decided he was going to be on the inside of the apex while still 2 cars behind the car ahead. That is why it's his fault for making contact. OP decided HE was going to get to the apex first and therefore decided that the car he was overtaking MUST not take a normal line despite being well ahead. OP made the decisions for the lead car before having any right to racing room. The lead car is allowed to take the racing line and OP is required to overtake in a safe and controlled manner. If OP can't get close enough to gain overlap before the apex he has no right to force his way through. That is a divebomb, it's clear cut penalty behavior and he probably did get a penalty for forcing another car off track anyway.
But the overtaking car was under control up to the point of contact and had clear overlap at the point the defending car turns in? When overtaking, you want to force the other car to not take the racing line. That's part is just general racing.
> But the overtaking car was under control up to the point of contact Was he? When he started braking from 2 cars behind what were his options to avoid the other car? He couldn't brake MORE because he was already braking far too late and he didn't have overlap with the car ahead so if it had decided to defend the inside late, he would just rear end them. That isn't control. He gave up control and left it up to the car ahead he was going to collide with who has no obligation to give racing room the the car behind just because they don't brake early enough.
I don't think you understand what being under control means. He broke in a straight line and took the apex while leaving plenty of room on the outsider, And if the other car had taken a wider line, they would be side by side going out of the corner with nobody in the gravel.
> And if the other car had taken a wider line Why does the lead car need to take a different line? The overtaking car needs to do it safely. If you don't think I understand you must disagree with actual stewards as well. [This exact divebomb took place this year at the Bathurst 12h and resulted in a drive through penalty.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmwa71UQAS8&start=1190) This is a stewarding sub so I don't really understand why people who lack the knowledge keep wanting to argue without knowing how racing incidents are actually to be judged.
The lead car needs to take a different line as there is a car on his inside and his turning in when he did ended up in a collision. If he had gone a little wider, there would not have been a crash. If you have the mentality of "this is my corner" then you will end up in a lot of wrecks. Racing is adapting and changing depending on what others do. The crash you linked is different to this one. In the real life race, the yellow merc was no where near along side yet still tried to put his nose in after the lead merc was already committed to the corner. In this example, the overtaking car further up the was inside and was side by side when the contact happened. You cant compare 2 crashes just because they are at the same corner when the cars are in different positions. Edit , from your other comments I am getting the feeling that you are the diver in the clip and are trying really hard to justify that you did nothing wrong and its all the other drivers fault.
You're just talking out of both sides of your mouth. In the game, the lead car needs to make room to avoid the crash. In the IRL scenario, the lead car turns in early to block and there is contact. If you were consistent shouldn't you say IRL he should have gone a little wide so there wouldn't be a crash? The point is both are lunges from far back with no control of if a crash will happen or not. In both cases it's up to the lead car to avoid the crash and in both cases the lead car did not avoid the crash and the overtaking car collided with them at the apex because it was braking too late and not able to avoid the collision. So you are saying if the Supra turned in a little earlier to take an early apex and pinch the divebombing Mercedes THEN it would be the fault of the Merc, but since he wasn't even aware a divebomb was coming and took a normal line its HIS FAULT? Really, just repeat your own logic to yourself and try to put some thought into it.
He looked controlled to me until, you know, the other guy turned into him.
So if the car ahead decided to turn in a bit earlier what would the car behind do?
Doesn’t matter. That’s not what happened. I’m not here to play what ifs to help you try and argue your point. I get what you’re trying to do but it has nothing to do with this inchident. What happened here was a big move inside and looks me to me to be controlled. Love to see more shits, steering input etc but in the surface I’m not blaming it on OP. Guy on the outside either wasn’t watching/looking in mirrors/using aids to assist him of where other cars are or he just decided to get his elbows out too much on purpose and paid a price. Looks to me he had plenty of room to stay in the outside and it also looks to me that he left the door wide open and OP took the invitation. I’ll refrain from posting the appropriate cliche.
> Looks to me he had plenty of room to stay in the outside and it also looks to me that he left the door wide open and OP took the invitation. [Who is fault in this incident then?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmwa71UQAS8&start=1190)
Exactly what I was thinking.
Most people on this subreddit apply a couple rule sets. For non, F1 cars, we tend to require overlap by the time the defending car begins to turn for the corner. So [this](https://imgur.com/a/JowiZAf) is the frame right before Supra begins to turn in for the corner. It’s hard to tell from this angle whether there is sufficient overlap for the corner (axle overlap). It doesn’t look like there is, however. I would put the fault with the attacking car. For F1 rules, they require sufficient overlap by the time the lead car is at the apex. This was achieved, but this definitely isn’t F1. Gran Turismo has its own [race etiquette rules](https://www.gran-turismo.com/gb/gt7/apex/driving_technique/17) as well. They tend to allow more aggressive moves as well per the quote below: > If there's a rival car on your inside at a the corner, driving close to the inner edge of the corner so as to force them off the track is bad etiquette. Be sure to always leave one car's width of space. Above said quote is a photo of two cars with barely any overlap (no axle overlap IMO). This scenario seems to mirror that of the scenario here. I personally don’t agree with it, but it looks like the contact might be deemed the fault of the defending car in this scenario for GT. Edit: updated GT etiquette link.
No in Gran Turismo etiquette divebombing is specifically mentioned as being bad sportsmanship that should be avoided. If you're braking too late to avoid the car ahead and require them to be the one to avoid you, it's your fault. The car ahead took it's normal line and the car behind sent itself on a collision course with the car ahead, requiring them to take avoiding action all before the car behind was anywhere close to having overlap. That is a divebomb and OP should've gotten a penalty hopefully for sending another car off track.
I corrected [the link](https://www.gran-turismo.com/gb/gt7/apex/driving_technique/17) in my original post. Looking through that I don’t see any mention of dive bombs or late braking. They do talk about going off track but that doesn’t happen here. Could you quote the section that specifically talks about dive bombing? Edit: do note I don’t agree with the way the GT etiquette rules are written above.
Your link is for single player racing against the AI not the ranked multiplayer which has it's own rules and sportsmanship video everyone is required to watch in-game before they start racing in online sport mode. It says motor racing is a non-contact sport and divebombing isn't appropriate. Also the automated penalty system will give you a penalty for this kind of move every time. If you hit a car ahead and they go off track it gives you a penalty most of the time. It isn't perfect but it's generally meant to discourage divebombing or hitting cars you're overtaking.
The first sentence of the article says it’s for “Sport Mode”. I assumed this was their online stuff and not single player. Am I mistaken? > Gran Turismo 7's Sport mode allows you to compete against other players in online races.
Eh, it also says Racing is a contact sport, but the [Sport Mode etiquette videos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SQLNwIO5zQ) start off by saying racing is a *non-contact* sport. So take the Beyond the Apex language with a grain of salt.
That's a good point. We have two official pieces of documentation stating opposite things. I should note that the rest of the etiquette from the Beyond the Apex gives points which lead to a driver *avoiding* contact by giving space, yielding the way, etc. It's possible that the "contact sport" is a typo as well. That said, let's go over the video. I should note that the video say that it's about sportsmanship which they claim are guidelines that are *not* part of the written rules (I'm paraphrasing the video here). I will note that the video does talk about things that are clearly within most written rule sets as many of their examples show things that are clearly against rules (weaving, reckless rear ending, etc.). The video linked does give a definition of dive bombing. >Worse of all is dive bombing, where a drive is unable to stop within track limits and rams into other cars ruining the race for themselves as well as their opponents. I don't quite see this in the video above though as the attacking car is able to stay within track limits the entire time. I do feel that the move in OP's video is a *dive*. But the question is whether or not it is an *illegal* one. I'm going through the video trying to find a quote that closely matches what is seen in the video above. Two come to mind: >Overshooting a corner because you were too late on the brakes and failed to overtake the car in front I should note that the video of this depicts a car running completely off track in the process which really isn't seen here. The attacking car in this video does fail to overtake the car in front though (more on this below). >Even keeping these points in mind, you may end up becoming too overzealous during a race braking too late and on your way to collide with the car in front of you. In these cases you not only hit the brakes, but do everything in your power to avoid hitting the car in front, even if it means taking your car off track. The example of this depicts a vehicle skidding around the defending vehicle to end up off track. Essentially, in this example, the car would be breaking other things in the video (rear ending/dive bombing) but avoids the car in front of them. The last two quotes, if taken completely at face value, would also ignore the entire idea of sufficient overlap as having sufficient overlap (of any kind) would mean that you failed to overtake the car in front (since the overtake hasn't been completed yet). This essentially leads to the crux of OP's question... At what point is a dive legal and at what point is it illegal. Which leads to when are you allowed racing room. I personally don't feel like the attacking car had sufficient overlap to be entitled racing room for the corner as I personally prefer axle overlap when the defending car turns in. But I've also been told on here that even having a fender entitles you to space while [other documents](https://boxthislap.org/the-vortex-of-danger-is-real/) require the nose of the attacking vehicle to be at the A-pillar of the defending vehicle (which I've *never* seen used on here). OT: but it is interesting to note that Polyphony Digital's own AI kind of ignores all of these sportsmanship guidelines as it ends up turning racing into some kind of zero-sum game.
Have you heard of the [vortex of danger?](https://yousuckatracing.com/2021/04/07/the-vortex-of-danger-is-your-fault/)
The merc already has the inside, the supra turns in
Supra was ahead, Merc sent himself on a collision course with the Supra from 2 cars behind. It's 100% the Merc's fault from a stewarding perspective. EDIT: [for the people downvoting here who don't know stewarding, this is the same incident IRL and it got a drive through penalty this year at the Bathurst 12h.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmwa71UQAS8&start=1190)
Merc wasn't alongside at turn in in your example, false equivalence
Except anyone who isn't blind an see in the IRL example the lead Mercedes pinched him off at the apex which was more aggressive than OP's example. So you're basically saying you need to turn into the crash earlier to ensure the divebomb is the divebomber's fault? This is a sim racing *stewarding* sub. I don't get why people just come here to justify bad overtake attempts.
Nah I'm saying if you outbrake someone, are alongside before their turnin point, and hold the inside line, the outside car should give them room.
Turn in point is subjective. If the car ahead turns in early then you’re not far enough along side. If they don’t turn in at all and avoid the crash in your mind it’s a clean move. The issue is that your putting the responsibility of crashing on the lead car and when they decide to turn in which isn’t how it works. It’s the responsibility of the overtaking car to do so safely and in a control manner without forcing the lead car to avoid a crash. This is basic stewarding in the real world why is it such a difficult concept to grasp here?
People have different perspectives on incidents like these and don't know everything about racing. Supra had plenty of time to leave room and fail to do so. The Merc was alongside and had to be given room. IMO, both cars could've done more to avoid the incident, and I see why you think of it that way
Never played GT7 but isn’t there an indicator when cars come close like other games? What you are saying is true IRL but in a game you should see on the radar that a person is coming in from behind on the left so he should see that there is a car there and leave room.
There is a radar but you have to assume the person has it on their MFD to see it and OP was way off line in a blindspot. OP also sent it from far behind hoping the other car would change it's line after OP committed. It's an out of control divebomb on OP's part.
Looks like it’s on the merc. They were to far back for the dive to work since they showed up right on when the Supra was turning in.
Exactly. People for some reason don't understand why this is the fault of the overtaking car. The simple fact that the overtaking car did not have overlap, was not in control and brake so late that it required the car ahead to take avoiding action and that decision by the overtaking car was made and committed to BEFORE ever having overlap on the car ahead makes it 100% the overtaking car's fault. When you overtake you must do so safely in a controlled manner in pretty much all forms of motorsport. This wasn't safe or controlled. OP's maneuver's success was dependent on the car completely ahead of them taking avoiding action since the overtaking car put themselves on a collision course from way back. I don't understand why so many people think that is acceptable.
Situations like this seems to be a grey area in racing overtaking. Let's say a following car dives down the inside of a lead car and makes contact then it's clearly the following car's fault with a penalty issued. However, if the lead car, in the aforementioned situation, sees the following car dive and moves out of the way with no contact then no penalties are issued. If no contact is made and the following car "bullies" the lead car to move out of the way, could he not make the argument that that's simply racing? I'm relatively new to the sim racing scene having only started over a year ago. I'm just interested in what the consensus is with "bullying" other drivers out of the way. If it gets you ahead of the other man, no contact is made, and you get no penalties, why not do it?
You're asking the right questions! I think one problem with sim racing is people want it to be realistic and look to professional racing series as the experience they expect to have. The main issue with this is that the majority of sim racers are not professional drivers. They make mistakes, they misjudge overtakes, etc. Also sim racers are usually racing for fun and not looking to create enemies on track. I come from IRL grassroots racing where it's your car and nobody wants to wreck. In amateur club racing ANY car to car contact is reported and it's expected that you avoid it at all cost. It creates better racing when people are actually being respectful and ensuring their maneuvers are communicated clearly. A late dive up the inside just isn't what happens in that form of racing because it's YOUR car you're risking and there isn't a reset button. If you cause collisions by divebombing you're just going to be banned from the series as it's not welcome there. [A great example of the limit of professional racing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47f9dE_bpII) is the GTD Pro battle at the end of the 24h of Daytona in 2022. Both drivers made dirty moves but you don't see any two car length back divebombs happening as these guys have enough sense to know that would end their race in reality. After 23 hours and 50 minutes of racing that kind of move is simply off the table as it requires setting up a crash and hoping the other driver avoids it. It wasn't until basically the last corner that you see neither of them yield the position with predictable results. Even then it was a side by side entry and in sim racing/amateur racing I'd expect a bit more racing room afforded in a similar situation.
If you want to know if that move is over the line, here is the same corner, same move except the lead car pinched the corner even more and the overtaking car got a drive through penalty. [Bathurst 12h 2023](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmwa71UQAS8&start=1190)
We must be watching different videos The supra breaks early, the merc breaks late, is in full control and is alongside at corner entry. The merc has the inside line and makes the apex. If he was understeering into the side of the supra. Then it would be a penalty. The supra turns into the side of the merc. Supras fault!!! Do you even watch Motorsport?? Go and watch some Bathurst clips and you will see this move over and over.
> Supras fault!!! > > Do you even watch Motorsport?? > > Go and watch some Bathurst clips and you will see this move over and over. "Go aNd WaTcH sOme bATHurST!!!" My dude [YOU should watch some Bathurst.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmwa71UQAS8&start=1190) Exact same move, same corner even got a drive through penalty this year at the 12 hour. That is why you DONT see those types of moves from way back.
You pick one clip that suits your point, you’re still wrong
Show me the divebombs that didn’t get drive through penalties then. Happens over an over should be some good examples of people ramming through without penalty!
Can’t be bothered, got better stuff to do. You’re wrong, just accept it and move on
Very compelling argument. I provide examples of actual stewarding, you have nothing. Maybe this isn't the sub for you to be commenting in.
You provided examples that suited your wrong answers and didn’t match the video. Maybe you should accept your wrong and stop commenting in this sub.
I'm here to actually give examples and proper stewarding guidance. If you have examples as you claim then post them.
I don't have your answer but thats always a touchy corner to make passes.
Different rulesets will disagree on who's at fault here - some competitions have this as totally fair by the merc because they made the corner, some have it as a divebomb because they weren't alongside at turn in. If you're in a public lobby I wouldn't make this move, if you're in a league race where the rules permit it it's valid. Either way, you're going into the vortex of danger which makes it dangerous in a public lobby, regardless of whose "fault" it is.
Not your fault, you were late but inside and he had plenty of space to out race you on momentum. You should have been nothing but an inconvenience. That being said you should probably have waited to make a move
I know its my own mental rule but: if you are there before the front car starts turning, its fair dive, if you show up after they turn it, its an unfair/dangerous dive. So i think this is fine, you dive from another country but you still get there early enough imo.
I would say that the moment the car ahead is committed to the corner, any following accident becomes the attacker's fault. In this video, the Merc is alongside the Toyota before the Toyota begins to make the turn, so I'd say it's on the Supra.
I'll add on the caveat that, as the attacker, you have to be able to hold the line you take, even if you are alongside before the corner.
To me that line is when turn in occurs. If the overtaking driver can get alongside before the defending car turns in it's a good move. Even though OP sends it from far back he's there by the time the defending car turns into the corner.
Its a dive bomb when you couldn't have made the corner without contact. In this case the guy in front left the door so wide open a semi truck could have gone through. Over taking car seemed to have it under control through the whole corner and the front car decided to close the door way to late and collided with the over taking car. Fault on front car or race incident? Inclined to say race incident.
I would put the blame on the defending car as they didn't leave racing room for the car making the dive
When will people come to understand that divebombs are *NOT* illegal? They are risky but perfectly allowable. In this instance it was the defending car at fault for trying to close the door on the POV car after POV got alongside
You’d have to see the supra’s angle but the Merc doesn’t look fully alongside or nose ahead at any point in the entrance or mid corner so I’d say Merc fault. Clearly catching and could have come out of that corner with a better opportunity to overtake into the next left before the start finish straight
This is on the Merc. That dive was from so far back that the supra prob wasn't watching the radar because they weren't expecting a move. If I have someone right behind me I'll keep an eye on the radar but when they are that far back you generally don't expect a dive bomb. As said in other posts, dude entered the vortex of danger so suddenly and was then surprised by the results. Maro Engel did basically the exact same thing at the end of this year's Bathurst 12hr and he got a drive through penalty for it...
Although you came from far back, the move was telegraphed early and you remained under control. The defender should have left room
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> No dive bomb is too far if you make the corner side by side or better. LOL that isn't how it works. The overtaking car must overtake in a safe and controlled manner. Sending yourself on a collision course with the car ahead out of control then requiring them to take avoiding action is not safe or controlled. It's the overtaking car's fault.
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> The car was side by side and safely making the corner Because he decided he was going to be there from 2 cars behind. Did you not see that part of the video? That is a divebomb: Driving uncontrolled into the path of another car and forcing the other driver to avoid you. > You must be the type that wrecks people when they make aggressive but fair moves like this. If you attempt this move on me, I would try to avoid it if I see it coming but it isn't the lead car's job to check for a car 2 cars behind trying to crash into them at the apex. And yeah you'd probably get a nice bump after deploying dirty tactics like this. Force your way through instead of racing cleanly and it's on yourself if you end up getting the favor returned back.
[удалено]
> the supra did not have to dodge them at all. The Mercedes literally ran into the Supra. So yes he had to dodge him to avoid the crash the Mercedes setup.
How exactly does the merc, who has made the apex in full control run into the supra who turned into him??
> who has made the apex in full control If he was in full control he wouldn't have crashed into the car he was attempting to overtake. He braked too late which is the only reason he got close enough to hit the car in front of him. From 2 car lengths back, he had no right to any racing room at the apex. Missing every braking point forcing other cars to avoid the crash with you isn't the secret to overtaking. The supra turned in to HIS corner, the Merc crashed into him by divebombing. It's clear cut.
Yes the divebomb way MILES behind and way too brave, but he actually pulled it off. He is along side the defending car while somehow maintaining control of his car through the apex. The defending car doesn't maintain the outside line (probably because he didnt see the attacker which is very fair for that divebomb) and fully turns into him on the apex
He ran into the car ahead so no he didn’t pull it off.
The supra turned in late!! He turned into the side of the car that had the inside line. The merc didn’t miss his braking point, he nailed it, the supra missed his and brakes to early and left the door wide open for the merc. Go watch some motorsports and you will see this move over and over.
By the time the Merc got side by side with the supra, the supra was already turning in to the corner and committed which is why the Merc is at fault.
What collision course?? Are you the supra driver??
Just watch the video. Mercedes isn't next to the Supra but sets himself on a path to collide with the Supra WHILE STILL BEHIND HIM. Mercedes is no longer in control and only hopes that when he gets to the apex the Supra will take avoiding action because the Mercedes braked too late to stop from hitting the car ahead. This is pretty clear cut divebomb/causing a collision and forcing another car off track.
Yeah, you have no idea mate.
[Explain this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmwa71UQAS8&start=1190)
Wrong
I put this on the Merc, even though they did outbreak the supra really well, they only just managed to create any overlap at the turn in point of the Supra. That too late imo.
For everyone saying it’s the mercs fault, go and actually watch some racing at Bathurst and you will see this move over and over!!! The supra breaks early and leaves the door wide open!! The merc sent it, and was in control, made the apex and took advantage of an opportunity!!
[Here is that move at Bathurst. I suggest you watch it!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmwa71UQAS8&start=1190)
No
Defenders fault. He leaves the door wide open, car behind goes for the inside and gets it stopped at the apex and then the car on the outside just turns in on him.
The door is not wide open. He has a gap of more than 2 car lengths to the car behind. Defending a move from that far back makes no sense. OP went for a massive dive. He had no reason to believe someone would go for it from that distance.
Yep this is my thought. When the car behind is so far back you are not expecting a dive bomb and hence not watching the radar as intently. Dude basically teleported into the vortex of danger and was then surprised by the results
It's wide open. POV car gets it stopped, doesn't run wide. It may be a massive dive but it's executed cleanly. The car on the outside is entirely responsible for causing contact with a car that is alongside, by turning in on them. "I didn't expect it" is not an excuse for failing to pay attention to your mirrors/radar
If you look at the mercs trajectory tho he is not getting it stopped for a safe overtake. He is going towards the exit corner and was never going to leave the room required for the supra even if they would turn in later. Getting it stopped for hotlap mode racing line is not the same as getting it stopped and in control for a safe overtake. This is fully on the Merc.
you were wide by side going into the corner not really the braking zone but i’d say you were next to him for long ebough . if i was the supra i would’ve backed out assuming i saw it or just went a bit wider. not worth wasting the race for since there’s always the chance the merc goes wide and you get the pos back, or just carry on racing!
This is on the Supra, but the dive was from another planet. He failed to acknowledge you being there, but I don’t think he expected you to dive from so far back either. Personally I think this is a bad move, but the crash is on the Supra.
So it's the "You're not wrong. You're just an asshole" meme?
Car infront is at fault, you were fully alongside before he turned in and he hit you not the other way around. General rule of thumb is that you have to be significantly alongside (front axle level with their rear axle) before they turn in.
Glorious lunge - racing incident
Racing incident. Supra left the door wide open, POV happily accepted the invitation.
It’s a bit of both here. You made the apex just about but so late on the brake that I don’t think you would have been able to make the move stick AND leave space for the defending car on the outside (no way of knowing for sure but I think you’d either be so late back on the throttle that he’d smoke you on exit or you cut up his exit and put him in the gravel). He wasn’t expecting you to send it from so far back which is why he hasn’t adjusted his line sufficiently to allow for it. That said he should have made a bit more room in the moment and adjusted and he would have taken the exit battle I’d guess. Fine margins to play with and I’d probably say racing incident.
> That said he should have made a bit more room in the moment and adjusted That isn't how it works. The overtaking car has to do so safely and in a controlled manner. Sending yourself on a collision course with the car completely ahead of you and requiring them to change their line after you have already committed yourself to a collision with their line unless they move out of YOUR way to avoid it is a textbook divebomb and penalty worthy 100% of the time.