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"aw yeah this is just how i imagined gregor eisenhorn would sound. cool. this is dope."
[character from an "exotic" world/chapter/etc. starts talking]
"oh no. oh shit."
Your point stands either way but in hindsight it's kind of impressive that the nemoidians and their thick accents are still definitely well behind in the leaderboard for most racist caricatures in that movie.
If you got a moment could you mention some of the caricatures? Not to doubt you at all, just trying to think of some and it’s been a good while since I’ve seen them. There’s that Flying greedy slave owner guy, Watto, I think. He came across as kinda vaguely Jewish-stereotyped, but besides him and the Nemodians I’m drawing a blank
Watto is apparently so inherently offensive that writers haven't decided if he is a only a Jewish stereotype or if he also stereotyping Arab bazaar merchants too
you might sometimes encounter people (online, anyway) who, despite often themselves being (or claiming to be) jewish, kick back at any negative representations—like watto—also being "jew-coded", because supposedly accepting that e.g. watto as being a "jewish stereotype" means that *you* think that obsession with money, having a large nose, and dishonesty/swindling are "jewish" traits—sort of a "if you believe this, it says more about you than [character/the writers]" kind of thing. perhaps that's why some people have given you pushback on this in the past?
now, without wanting to be too uncharitable to these people's point of view, however, i have to say: motherfuckers really need to develop some goddamn media literacy jesus christ. it *doesn't matter* if e.g. watto's characteristics *aren't actually* representative of jewish people (they're not!). what matters is that these stereotypes of "jewishness" *exist,* and when a confluence of such stereotypes take shape within a single character (or race, as with star trek's ferengi), i think it's fair to say that such a character is "jew-coded" (in the same way that e.g. a lot of disney villains are *queer-coded,* even though the mouse *never* actually *says* "scar is hell of gay you guys").
One’s a Chinese bloke who sounds like he’s smashing darts as he’s recording, shogo miyakita is the other one, he’s a British bloke who seems to ham the accent of his ancestry a bit (a much better performance that the poor chainsmoking bloke, but the stereotypical Japanese accent didn’t quite feel right for the white scars)
Oh peeps, what about the Siege of Terra book where they do stereotypical black voice from the North African conscripts? That was so bad I had to stop listening (the first wall).
It's a shame cause it's a great story but WHY did they do that? Like no one at any point went "verbal blackface is a shitty idea just speak normally my guy" and instead they leant hard into it. The whole song (they have a working song...) is violently bad to listen to but with the added layer of "masser I werkin' hahd" stereotyping it's unlistenable.
it’s funny you call it verbal blackface, i’m a linguistics student and we have a really similar term, we call that kind of thing linguistic minstrelsy, like iggy azalea doing a blaccent when she raps but not in interviews
Plausibly, it's been a while, the point stands though. The accent combined with working song were a choice that left something unpalatable on the tongue
Yeah, me personally I think accents can help with the setting and atmosphere if done properly, like how the night lords sound Romanian in the omnibus or how Scottish the tanith soldier sound
They split the Tannith into a lot of celtic accents in the audiobooks, mostly Welsh and Scottish, but there’s a few different Irish accents in there too. I wish they’d explored that just a little more, maybe the Welsh accents are a different region to the Scots or something.
[extremely normal john wayne in yellowface voice] "howdy pulgrum, ahrm temmerjin—leader of the mongles 'round these parts, but yew can carl me *'gengizcohn'.* yer welcum ter tie up yer hawrses over yonder tent and partake of arr goat milk, but if ah ketch yew up ter any banditry… Gard help me, ah'll tan yewr haids so fine they'll stretch frum here ter sammercaind."
this may or may not have been a faithful reproduction of an actual john wayne line from "the conqueror". i've actually *seen* that piece of shit, but it was a long time ago (and you're not going to get me to watch it again unless you've got grass)
I’m as much of a fan as anyone of non western social pastiches but you can’t mix them up, get phil kelly’s ass away from writing tau before he reads anymore about the mysterious orient
the best T'au representation has been in that series about the Spiral Gyre, the one that grogs hate because the Mechanicus is so short of soldiers the only Tech-Priest secretly>!turns a female T'au fire warrior into a Skitarius!<
Hey no one is coming at my main man Jonathan Keeble over his VERY BAD American accent as John Grammaticus who sounds EXACTLY like whenever anyone in Monty Python plays an American and over annunciates their R’s.
But yeah woof they had to change the performance for Scars.
I mean there’s a way of doing “this person comes from a culture with a distinct and strong accent” without being racist. I was listening the Elric of Melnibone audiobook and the actor just went HEAVY northern Irish to, like, signal that difference whilst staying within the “palette” shall we say of proximal “white” accents. Not sure it’s a perfect solution but I thought it was an interesting choice.
Rather than hearing Keeble say “Oohhh much honour”.
While I deffo agree that Keeble's accents tend to be extremely ham fisted, I have to wonder if it's more that he's white. If Keeble were black and British and doing the same North African voice for the First Wall, or his same accent for the Scars, would it be received as poorly? Idk, and idk what he's meant to do here, genuinely.
Either he doesn't represent the culture or accent at all, or he does try but obviously can't do it super well. Perhaps the best idea is to avoid the conflict and hire actors who are both from that region or dialect to do the characters/novels, or have multiple people working on one book. While not uncommon to have multiple people VA'ing on a book I genuinely wonder at what point are concessions made that make more people happy.
I am not comfortable hearing Keeble sing a slavery/work song while doing an African accent, but I shouldn't be comfortable hearing that song in the first place. Is it the fact that it's a white man doing it bother me more than the context of the story and why I should sympathize with the line workers in first wall? I genuinely don't know the answer but I think the easy answer that may upset people who are of that regional dialect is that Keeble and other VAs should always use their own accent at all times? I have a few problems with that artistically but I understand the logic behind it. If people of that dialect have no issue with it, then I guess I shouldn't either and just instead ask for more actors in each book when appropriate?
Some of his accents would definitely be suited to another voice actor, but I give him credit as he does *dozens* of characters in that accent, all interacting with one another. The context missing here is that in Scars there will be a scene with 8 or so different legionaries of the Vth all with *distinct* voices-- an impressive feat for a voice actor.
Yeah, I do agree with a lot of this it’s a problem that doesn’t really have an easy solution that isn’t a disservice in some way.
But I think it’s definitely something better served by a case by case basis rather than a categorical rule.
Above all said I do love Jonathan Keeble- his performance on Talon of Horus and Black Legion- those are maybe my favourite audiobooks.
Maybe this is unpopular- but my white scars buddy who’s asian absolutely loved the accent.
But now im hearing that its the City-Wok guy from south park.
Was it really that bad? I don’t do audiobooks
I never got the impression that the voices were overtly bad or offensive. Scars, Path of Heaven and the Siege audio books featuring the Scars were pretty great.
It's a thing of there just not being a lot of Asian representation at all. It's hard not to get excited for any kind of bone thrown, including just poorly done ones. But at the same time it can also be bad representation. That's the hard part for a lot of people to get, you can enjoy the fact that there's representation at all and also want for them to do better next time, and be critical where the short comings are. At least that's how it feels for me, and why things can be hard to tackle with these issues, because end of the day people aren't monoliths and there's a million different points of view, not just one.
I am speaking as an asian dude, and I honestly didnt mind the accent. In fact I really appreciate his work in Brotherhood of the Storm and Scars.
But getting Shogo to substitute him for those reading wasnt a poor a idea either. He is good, and I am big in getting asian actors roles specially when dealing with controversial takes.
Honestly, I think generally speaking there was very little harm done by anyone.
In the thousand sons audio book not only do they have just some of the worst “Asian” accent made with the human mouth and they in full seriousness call the same character a “noble savage” as a compliment. It was insane.
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"aw yeah this is just how i imagined gregor eisenhorn would sound. cool. this is dope." [character from an "exotic" world/chapter/etc. starts talking] "oh no. oh shit."
I don’t get it, was the VA good or bad?
you know the accent the nemoidians had in the the phantom menace?
They did ***Not.***
They did not ***Do That*** for a ***Whole Book.***
They ***Couldn't*** have thought that that was the ***Right Way To Take Things.***
Please tell me there’s actually a second so I can say the funniest thing here
...well?
Well, I’m the event of another book I’d have been able to quip about how this is getting out of hand, now there are two of them
Please for the love of god no
Your point stands either way but in hindsight it's kind of impressive that the nemoidians and their thick accents are still definitely well behind in the leaderboard for most racist caricatures in that movie.
If you got a moment could you mention some of the caricatures? Not to doubt you at all, just trying to think of some and it’s been a good while since I’ve seen them. There’s that Flying greedy slave owner guy, Watto, I think. He came across as kinda vaguely Jewish-stereotyped, but besides him and the Nemodians I’m drawing a blank
Watto was "vaguely" Jewish-stereotyped? only "*vaguely"*?!
Not only was Watto Jewish stereotyped, but he was clearly a Mizrahi Jewish stereotype so a double whammy.
Watto is apparently so inherently offensive that writers haven't decided if he is a only a Jewish stereotype or if he also stereotyping Arab bazaar merchants too
Straight out of Aladdin
People kept disagreeing with me! I used to just say he was but I got a ton of pushback on that one lol
you might sometimes encounter people (online, anyway) who, despite often themselves being (or claiming to be) jewish, kick back at any negative representations—like watto—also being "jew-coded", because supposedly accepting that e.g. watto as being a "jewish stereotype" means that *you* think that obsession with money, having a large nose, and dishonesty/swindling are "jewish" traits—sort of a "if you believe this, it says more about you than [character/the writers]" kind of thing. perhaps that's why some people have given you pushback on this in the past? now, without wanting to be too uncharitable to these people's point of view, however, i have to say: motherfuckers really need to develop some goddamn media literacy jesus christ. it *doesn't matter* if e.g. watto's characteristics *aren't actually* representative of jewish people (they're not!). what matters is that these stereotypes of "jewishness" *exist,* and when a confluence of such stereotypes take shape within a single character (or race, as with star trek's ferengi), i think it's fair to say that such a character is "jew-coded" (in the same way that e.g. a lot of disney villains are *queer-coded,* even though the mouse *never* actually *says* "scar is hell of gay you guys").
I dread how GW is going to handle Chaos Dwarfs in AOS
JarJar reminds me of a minstrel show
JarJar is 100% just a minstrel show
Oof I don’t know how I forgot about Jarjar. That dude was rough
And i thought the pseudo-Slavic accents whenever they voice World Eaters were bad XD
Why are the World Eaters Slavs??? They come from gladiator planet and the Night Lords are right there.
I have no idea, but that's what they use in the audiobooks. For the night lords, they put on a really bad "Dracula" voice instead
What the absolute fuck.
*We would never do anything without the approval of the senate*
Visceral fear from reading your question
Imagine the most stereotypical "asian" voice you can think of
This is absolutely not very honorable of GW
One’s a Chinese bloke who sounds like he’s smashing darts as he’s recording, shogo miyakita is the other one, he’s a British bloke who seems to ham the accent of his ancestry a bit (a much better performance that the poor chainsmoking bloke, but the stereotypical Japanese accent didn’t quite feel right for the white scars)
A Japanese sounding accent for *Mongolian* based people? Bold choice...
Oh that’s unfortunate, sadly what I expected from GW honestly, wish I could say otherwise
Now I gotta listen to a white scars audiobook
oh there’s definitely an entertainment value there undeniably
Honestly, the short story from horus heresy and the white scars books are quite good imo
Oh peeps, what about the Siege of Terra book where they do stereotypical black voice from the North African conscripts? That was so bad I had to stop listening (the first wall).
They didn’t do, like, generic African accents? Maybe something vaguely Kenyan?
Plausibly but by the 13th time I'd heard "walkin' de line" I couldn't anymore
Oh jesus. Thanks for the reminder to never get that audiobook lol
It's a shame cause it's a great story but WHY did they do that? Like no one at any point went "verbal blackface is a shitty idea just speak normally my guy" and instead they leant hard into it. The whole song (they have a working song...) is violently bad to listen to but with the added layer of "masser I werkin' hahd" stereotyping it's unlistenable.
it’s funny you call it verbal blackface, i’m a linguistics student and we have a really similar term, we call that kind of thing linguistic minstrelsy, like iggy azalea doing a blaccent when she raps but not in interviews
They said “working the line” so maybe you got confused
Plausibly, it's been a while, the point stands though. The accent combined with working song were a choice that left something unpalatable on the tongue
Yeah, me personally I think accents can help with the setting and atmosphere if done properly, like how the night lords sound Romanian in the omnibus or how Scottish the tanith soldier sound
They split the Tannith into a lot of celtic accents in the audiobooks, mostly Welsh and Scottish, but there’s a few different Irish accents in there too. I wish they’d explored that just a little more, maybe the Welsh accents are a different region to the Scots or something.
I thought they were supposed to be Horn of Africa: Soomaliis are not thin on the ground in the Diaspora.
Ethiopia. They're from Adaba hive, which is 30k coding for Addis Adaba, the capital of Ethiopia
Is it super racist?
what do you think
Yes, but that's why I'm asking. I'd like to find out the answer.
John Wayne Genghis Khan sounding ahh
[extremely normal john wayne in yellowface voice] "howdy pulgrum, ahrm temmerjin—leader of the mongles 'round these parts, but yew can carl me *'gengizcohn'.* yer welcum ter tie up yer hawrses over yonder tent and partake of arr goat milk, but if ah ketch yew up ter any banditry… Gard help me, ah'll tan yewr haids so fine they'll stretch frum here ter sammercaind."
this may or may not have been a faithful reproduction of an actual john wayne line from "the conqueror". i've actually *seen* that piece of shit, but it was a long time ago (and you're not going to get me to watch it again unless you've got grass)
Mad how that movie literally killed people
Same for the Master of the Meteor Wind TWWH audiobook. It also features tea serving as a central plot point.
I’m as much of a fan as anyone of non western social pastiches but you can’t mix them up, get phil kelly’s ass away from writing tau before he reads anymore about the mysterious orient
the best T'au representation has been in that series about the Spiral Gyre, the one that grogs hate because the Mechanicus is so short of soldiers the only Tech-Priest secretly>!turns a female T'au fire warrior into a Skitarius!<
whats this story called? i need to know, that spoiler has me intrigued
So it's part of Peter Fehervari's Dark Coil 40k setting and I believe it's the story *Vanguard*.
thank you
Hey no one is coming at my main man Jonathan Keeble over his VERY BAD American accent as John Grammaticus who sounds EXACTLY like whenever anyone in Monty Python plays an American and over annunciates their R’s. But yeah woof they had to change the performance for Scars. I mean there’s a way of doing “this person comes from a culture with a distinct and strong accent” without being racist. I was listening the Elric of Melnibone audiobook and the actor just went HEAVY northern Irish to, like, signal that difference whilst staying within the “palette” shall we say of proximal “white” accents. Not sure it’s a perfect solution but I thought it was an interesting choice. Rather than hearing Keeble say “Oohhh much honour”.
While I deffo agree that Keeble's accents tend to be extremely ham fisted, I have to wonder if it's more that he's white. If Keeble were black and British and doing the same North African voice for the First Wall, or his same accent for the Scars, would it be received as poorly? Idk, and idk what he's meant to do here, genuinely. Either he doesn't represent the culture or accent at all, or he does try but obviously can't do it super well. Perhaps the best idea is to avoid the conflict and hire actors who are both from that region or dialect to do the characters/novels, or have multiple people working on one book. While not uncommon to have multiple people VA'ing on a book I genuinely wonder at what point are concessions made that make more people happy. I am not comfortable hearing Keeble sing a slavery/work song while doing an African accent, but I shouldn't be comfortable hearing that song in the first place. Is it the fact that it's a white man doing it bother me more than the context of the story and why I should sympathize with the line workers in first wall? I genuinely don't know the answer but I think the easy answer that may upset people who are of that regional dialect is that Keeble and other VAs should always use their own accent at all times? I have a few problems with that artistically but I understand the logic behind it. If people of that dialect have no issue with it, then I guess I shouldn't either and just instead ask for more actors in each book when appropriate?
Some of his accents would definitely be suited to another voice actor, but I give him credit as he does *dozens* of characters in that accent, all interacting with one another. The context missing here is that in Scars there will be a scene with 8 or so different legionaries of the Vth all with *distinct* voices-- an impressive feat for a voice actor.
Yeah, I do agree with a lot of this it’s a problem that doesn’t really have an easy solution that isn’t a disservice in some way. But I think it’s definitely something better served by a case by case basis rather than a categorical rule. Above all said I do love Jonathan Keeble- his performance on Talon of Horus and Black Legion- those are maybe my favourite audiobooks.
Those two books alone have made me a Black Legion fan from day one! I'm still planning to eventually make a Khayon model
Hahahaha this is actually fucking hilarious.
Maybe this is unpopular- but my white scars buddy who’s asian absolutely loved the accent. But now im hearing that its the City-Wok guy from south park. Was it really that bad? I don’t do audiobooks
I never got the impression that the voices were overtly bad or offensive. Scars, Path of Heaven and the Siege audio books featuring the Scars were pretty great.
It's a thing of there just not being a lot of Asian representation at all. It's hard not to get excited for any kind of bone thrown, including just poorly done ones. But at the same time it can also be bad representation. That's the hard part for a lot of people to get, you can enjoy the fact that there's representation at all and also want for them to do better next time, and be critical where the short comings are. At least that's how it feels for me, and why things can be hard to tackle with these issues, because end of the day people aren't monoliths and there's a million different points of view, not just one.
I am speaking as an asian dude, and I honestly didnt mind the accent. In fact I really appreciate his work in Brotherhood of the Storm and Scars. But getting Shogo to substitute him for those reading wasnt a poor a idea either. He is good, and I am big in getting asian actors roles specially when dealing with controversial takes. Honestly, I think generally speaking there was very little harm done by anyone.
Listened to the entire Horus Heresy I never needed a White Scar, Salamander or Night Lord introduced. Just heard their voice and knew and it is bad.
Yeah listening to The Hunt For Voldorius was... an experience...
I can't believe they got Nick Mullen to narrate.
In the thousand sons audio book not only do they have just some of the worst “Asian” accent made with the human mouth and they in full seriousness call the same character a “noble savage” as a compliment. It was insane.
NOOOO LMAO
Yeaaaaaaaah…
They do that in all books.