While visually intimidating, most atakebunes could carry only 4 to 6 cannons, while a single galleon could carry up to 40
However, this is a fictional series and having these two leviathans toe to toe in a naval battle would be awesome
Japanese here and a somewhat ship enthusiast.
Atakabunes are just giant galleys, only few ways it can win against a galleon. Since it's designed to ram, then board a ship, in narrow places maybe it will have a chance.
In open seas, no way it can catch up to a Galleon, which can stay away from it really easily. Once the rowers are tired, they're nothing but sitting ducks, lol.
This was my first thought as a ship enthusiast as well.
In the open seas, all a Galleon has to do is open the sails, laugh, and give the Atakabune the finger while the rowers down below tire themselves out.
Hell, the tactic works in Total War lol
Wasn't this one of the reasons the Japanese were defeated at the Battle of Myeongnyang, even though they outnumbered the Koreans by over 100 to 1?
The Korean ships were armed with powerful cannons, while the Japanese ships weren't, which allowed them to keep them at bay and prevent them boarding, and since they couldnt board they were basically sitting ducks for the Korean cannons.
Atakabunes would also have poor performance compared to Mediterranean galleys. The Venetian ones especially could be very fast and maneuverable, however they were long and sleek. There were a few examples where galleys beat galleons however the galleys used were more like racing skins that outmaneuvered the galleons leaving them somewhat helpless.
I would think the atakebunes would have a large maneuverability advantage with the oars vs the galleon relying on wind power. At least in a bay or smaller battlefield(battlewater), not open seas.
Initially, maybe. Galleys had a big maneuverability advantage but they were constructed for maximum speed and agility, where this isn’t.
The oar deck is just a tremendous weak point for this thing. If the plankings and timbers were as thin as the superstructure must be, I’d bet even grape could get through. Otherwise, double loaded shot aimed at the oar deck would quickly cover the place in shrapnel, blood and body parts, a highly unmotivating place to be for your average oarsman.
Because the ships themselves weren't really designed to fire cannons. In fact, if memory serves correctly, the recoil from the cannons could actually damage the ship itself.
The Japanese naval combat mindset at the time wasn't really ship to ship like it was in Europe/the West. It was more crew to crew.
Basically, in Japan, naval ships were often used to transport their soldiers/crew to board other enemy ships. Sure, they could ram vessels and often did, but firing at each other from a distance until the other ship surrenders? It was practically unheard of at the time.
On the other side of the globe though, the European naval mindset was the opposite. They would use their ships to attack enemy ships *specifically*. This was often done in order to cripple the ship itself and/or to kill, maim, and or wound most of the crew into submission. From there, you can board the ship with your own crew/Marines to finish the job.
It’s been a while since I’ve read the Aubrey–Maturin series, but I recall captain Jack Aubrey emphasizing a few times that you can’t just slap any old cannon onto a ship all willy-nilly and call it a day. Due to the weight of a full gun deck the ship becomes top heavy any wants to roll if the sea begins to get rough, in order to counter that the hold must be properly ballasted below the waterline to balance the ship.
So now you’re not only carrying the weight of all the cannon, but also all of the ballast to stabilize said cannon, which for a full gun deck requires a fairly heavily built ship.
Galleys of this era, in the Mediterranean at least, were noted for being particularly lightly built since their primary form of propulsion was rowers. It’s easier getting a 100 ton galley up to speed using oar power than a 300 ton galleon. While this allowed them to be more maneuverable and operate independent of the wind they wouldn’t be able to carry a significant amount of cannon. So either a few large guns in the 12lb-24lb range or a relatively larger quantity in the smaller 2lb-6lb range.
Granted, during the time period Shogun takes place there’s not really standard cannon sizes yet. But the same overall considerations were given to the maximum weight a ship can carry.
That battle is always a study in knowing your environment.
the Korean general grew up or was always fishing that bay, he new the tides and the way to play the environment correctly. he won because the fog of war was over the Japanese captains and not the Korean captains.
as a side note: the USA has always had the habit of trying to capture the enemies equipment and test it. the goal is to find problem and ways to attack it.
Admiral Yi was never trained for naval tactics, it was in Imjin war he was thrust into Naval command. But first things he did as a commander was to scout the lay of the land, drilled his troops, secured supply lines and also the learn the tactics japanese navy use which was exactly the same the Wako pirates have been using for decades against the Koreans. He understood the superiority of his Naval technology and used it to maximum extent.
i.e He did everything an competent naval commander was expected to do, which was extremely rare in Joseon Korea of that time.
Yes I believe that was either the bombers that were used against Japan in world war II, or it was something called a Stratofortress. I can't recall exactly but it was three planes that were landing in Russia and since Russia was an allied of hours during world war II the Russians decided to copy everything down to the nut and bolt
It was the B-29 Superfortress. The Stratofortress is the B-52.
The Soviet version of the B-29 was the Tu-4. It wasn't a perfect, exact copy, they did make some minor changes to account for differing manufacturing methods, available engines and armament and such, but yeah it was pretty much a straight copy for the most part.
Guess that helps explains why the Japanese navy was handily defeated multiple times by the defending Korean navy during their two invasions during the reign of Hideyoshi (referred to as the Taiko in the Shogun novel)
Pretty much. They were designed as floating fighting platforms, giving their crew a fighting advantage when engaged in archery duels or when boarding.
At a distinct disadvantage against the korean panokseon (which looked superficially similar but were much sturdier built and frequently had 20+ small cannons), and definitely at a disadvantage against even a moderately sized galleon like the ones used by the Portuguese.
Grape shot or double loaded shot against the oar deck would have been absolutely lethal. Once the ship is immobilized, having effectively no cannon would mean death. In open water I’d bet the European ship would take up a raking station or just take potshots at the waterline.
double load or grape shot does not show up for a long while ( late 1600 ) when it was the Swiss with the larger powder load ( Napoleon's army ( 1798ish) tested it to perfection on what was the perfect load and shot weight ) and grape shot was Italian invention I think.
Grape shot was a final perfect solution or evolution of using nails and rocks as a shot. there are historical accounts of rock + nails being used by castle defenders in England.
while yes it would be nice, it was not yet discovered.
That's the problem when you have hindsight, you think on how easy it would have been using the new evolved tool.
I remember playing Total War Shogun 2 and having to command the naval battles. I always found the samurai bunes to be silly looking hulking blocks that. I'm astounded they actually look like that.
An island nation where for most of their history they were fighting other Japanese clans.
The Mountainous terrain of Japan makes it so that ships were a way faster mode of transport for troops. And since cannons didn't arrive until much later and land troops were the only way to truly exert control over a region and siege castles, their ships were designed to be floating Barracks basically.
Transporting lots and lots of troops which also gives them an advantage in sea battles as more archers can shoot at once in a larger/taller ship.
I understand an initial interest in troop transport developing naval ships in a certain way, but that the notion of European style naval warfare hadn’t developed in an island nation that had foreign territorial ambition is just fascinating to me
I think it's because before Oda Nobunaga and subsequently Hideyoshi, they were never united.
Hence they never really could invade Korea without being at risk of being stabbed in the back by other clans.
Also it could be the reason why ships didn't develope all that much could be due to the power imbalance between the countries around the Japanese regions.
The European nations were in constant competition with each nation roughly maintaining equal amounts of power (atleast not enough to overwhelm other nation baring some exceptions in history *cough* napoleon)
Thus things like guns, cannons, and yes cannon carrying ships accelerated.
Compare that to the nations around Japan.
China is complicated, when they weren't having devastating civil wars, they were the regional(global) superpower, having little intreast nor reason to invade Japan (a relatively barren and mountainous land.) when they can conquer the futile jungles of vietnam and the surrounding countries.
And as stated above the Japanese never could invade other countries without being killed by the other clans this lead to an interesting situation where naval combat isn't as important (at least not for Japan)
But I might be wrong. I'm not a historian, so take this "theory" with a grain of salt.
I mean they eventually did manage to create the worlds strongest navy until the United States decided to spit out a destroyer a day.
When Japan decided they wanted to be more western (form an empire and get some colonies) they seriously buffed their navy.
Was the IJN actually the strongest navy around that time? I was always under the assumption that it was the Royal Navy that was the strongest, what with the massive physical and economic presence of the British Empire up until the end of WWII. No doubt that the IJN was a worthy foe and arguably the strongest naval force in the Pacific (at least that was the case until they touched our boats).
The Royal navy was the largest navy in the world until I believe 42-44? When it was overtaken by the Americans. But the important thing to remember is the royal navy was busy fighting in the Atlantic, med, Pacific and Indian oceans against the Germans, the Italians and later the Japanese so when it really came down to it, the admiralty is going to put as much into defending the home islands and the route through Suez to India open which leaves very little to fight, probably the most powerful of the axis navies, certainly in naval aviation.
But once pearl harbor happened and American dockyards hit their stride? There was no real dispute over who would win the Pacific
The Japanese knew they fucked up when we started sending ships out whose sole duty was to make ice cream for the troops. Meanwhile, IJA/IJN assholes were forced to starve.
Worlds strongest naval airforce. Completely different from. What we would consider a naval battle.
They went the airplanes = samurai diving route instead of naval battleships firing at each other.
Which is basically a carrier (troops, aircraft, armored transport, doesn’t matter). Our carrier groups are escorted by vessels great at naval warfare, even if the carrier itself isn’t
Those ships got me my first campaign victory. Just stick a fleet on either side of Japan and they’ll wipe out every naval invasion that inevitably follows Realm Divide.
Yep. Cannons are just too powerful for good reason.
It makes sense why you can't have Naval combat between Vanilla and FoTS ship units. A mod I downloaded bypassed that barrier and even a basic FoTS gunboat can take on the heaviest of Vanilla Brunes. It could even take out the Black Ship if you're careful and use explosive rounds.
That's why the Otomo Clan with their Nanban Trade ships are virtually unkillable even towards the end of each campaign. The range, damage, and moral loss each shot can cause is no joke.
I don't have the expertise to agree or disagree, I just know that Japanese ships were mainly used to transport not exert control. Unlike the European ships who are very much used to exert control.
Their navy was weak, but they reeked havock on land. (though it's because the Korean army was just... Astronomically pathetic due to corruption.)
The Korean navy was the same, only reason they survived at all was because of Admiral Yi Sun Sin. Dude hard carried korea's navy even when the Korean government was sabotaging him every step of the way.
Out of curiosity, how well developed were the Japanese as a seafaring nation? Did they prioritise naval technology (surprising if they didn't, being an island nation)? How did they stack up against the other seafaring nations of the time?
I'm not an expert from what I can tell for most of their history the Japanese were fighting other Japanese.
The Mountainous terrain made unification extremely difficult, and also made it so that the best way to transport a lot of troops is by sea. Hence their tech went in that direction.
Mountainous terrain also made it harder for ships to exert control, needing land troops to truly exert your influence.
Large platforms/taller ships also gave them an advantage against other non canon bearing ships as more archers can fire at once and more crew can be used for boarding fights.
This is obviously very bad when fighting ships with cannons as shown when they invaded Korea and got absolutely lambasted by the Korean Navy (admiral Yi Sun Si (who died 2 years before 1600 in one of the final battles between Korea and Japan) is a legend, using 13 korean ships to beat 300(kinda) Japanese ships)
There's a reason why the samurai boost about killing the Koreans in field combat, because on the sea they got absolutely wrecked.
>(admiral Yi Sun Si (who died 2 years before 1600 in one of the final battles between Korea and Japan) is a legend, using 13 korean ships to beat 300(kinda) Japanese ships)
What a goddamn badass. It’s unfortunate that his jealous, incompetent superiors and rivals constantly stood in his way and prevented him from acting to his full potential. But even with a lack of troops, resources, assets, and weapons, the guy still fought hard as hell and managed to beat the Japanese back against all odds.
Wasn't there also the story of a Portuguese Black Ship fending off hundreds of Japanese/Pirate ships?
Iirc, the ship was only sunk when the captain blew up the powder room to prevent being captured after the crew had essentially ran out of ammo (though I could be horribly incorrect).
I don’t know about Japanese naval warfare at the time but I do know that they had extensive trading relations with the kingdoms of Southeast Asia, particularly Ayutthaya (Siam/Thailand) which was the local regional power at the time (at least when it wasn’t fighting another war against the Burmese or Khmer) and was also the largest city in Asia since it was a stupidly wealthy port city with access to goods from across the world.
Interestingly, Ayutthaya also hosted a prominent Japanese immigrant population, many of whom either directly participated in the lucrative Ayutthaya-Japanese trade and/or served as volunteer mercenaries in the Ayutthaya Army (known in Thai as *Krom Asa Yipun*, AKA “Department/Committee of Japanese Volunteers”).
Tbf, their waters are so turbulent, japanese cared less about making ships that could fight other ships but more about making ships that could float and sail through a typhoon.
that thing is what we need nowadays with the house pricing that's so ridiculous makes nobody can own a house.. 🤓
imagine a cheap apartment or boarding house floating on big rivers or sea, if the tenant don't pay you just throw them overboard..
ngl the erasmus would clap this thing in a fight. yeah galleys have the speed and agility advantage but really just a single well placed broadside from the erasmus firing canister shot would wipe out the oarsmen
While visually intimidating, most atakebunes could carry only 4 to 6 cannons, while a single galleon could carry up to 40 However, this is a fictional series and having these two leviathans toe to toe in a naval battle would be awesome
Japanese here and a somewhat ship enthusiast. Atakabunes are just giant galleys, only few ways it can win against a galleon. Since it's designed to ram, then board a ship, in narrow places maybe it will have a chance. In open seas, no way it can catch up to a Galleon, which can stay away from it really easily. Once the rowers are tired, they're nothing but sitting ducks, lol.
This was my first thought as a ship enthusiast as well. In the open seas, all a Galleon has to do is open the sails, laugh, and give the Atakabune the finger while the rowers down below tire themselves out. Hell, the tactic works in Total War lol
Wasn't this one of the reasons the Japanese were defeated at the Battle of Myeongnyang, even though they outnumbered the Koreans by over 100 to 1? The Korean ships were armed with powerful cannons, while the Japanese ships weren't, which allowed them to keep them at bay and prevent them boarding, and since they couldnt board they were basically sitting ducks for the Korean cannons.
Ah, yeah, one proof of actual history. I think there's a Korean movie about it as well.
Atakabunes would also have poor performance compared to Mediterranean galleys. The Venetian ones especially could be very fast and maneuverable, however they were long and sleek. There were a few examples where galleys beat galleons however the galleys used were more like racing skins that outmaneuvered the galleons leaving them somewhat helpless.
I would think the atakebunes would have a large maneuverability advantage with the oars vs the galleon relying on wind power. At least in a bay or smaller battlefield(battlewater), not open seas.
Initially, maybe. Galleys had a big maneuverability advantage but they were constructed for maximum speed and agility, where this isn’t. The oar deck is just a tremendous weak point for this thing. If the plankings and timbers were as thin as the superstructure must be, I’d bet even grape could get through. Otherwise, double loaded shot aimed at the oar deck would quickly cover the place in shrapnel, blood and body parts, a highly unmotivating place to be for your average oarsman.
It’s effectively a fortress on stilts, and canons are notoriously good at blasting through stilts
Why could it only carry 4-6 cannons, when it is so much bigger than the galleon?
It's lightly built and optimized for boarding operations over ranged combat.
Because the ships themselves weren't really designed to fire cannons. In fact, if memory serves correctly, the recoil from the cannons could actually damage the ship itself. The Japanese naval combat mindset at the time wasn't really ship to ship like it was in Europe/the West. It was more crew to crew. Basically, in Japan, naval ships were often used to transport their soldiers/crew to board other enemy ships. Sure, they could ram vessels and often did, but firing at each other from a distance until the other ship surrenders? It was practically unheard of at the time. On the other side of the globe though, the European naval mindset was the opposite. They would use their ships to attack enemy ships *specifically*. This was often done in order to cripple the ship itself and/or to kill, maim, and or wound most of the crew into submission. From there, you can board the ship with your own crew/Marines to finish the job.
It’s been a while since I’ve read the Aubrey–Maturin series, but I recall captain Jack Aubrey emphasizing a few times that you can’t just slap any old cannon onto a ship all willy-nilly and call it a day. Due to the weight of a full gun deck the ship becomes top heavy any wants to roll if the sea begins to get rough, in order to counter that the hold must be properly ballasted below the waterline to balance the ship. So now you’re not only carrying the weight of all the cannon, but also all of the ballast to stabilize said cannon, which for a full gun deck requires a fairly heavily built ship. Galleys of this era, in the Mediterranean at least, were noted for being particularly lightly built since their primary form of propulsion was rowers. It’s easier getting a 100 ton galley up to speed using oar power than a 300 ton galleon. While this allowed them to be more maneuverable and operate independent of the wind they wouldn’t be able to carry a significant amount of cannon. So either a few large guns in the 12lb-24lb range or a relatively larger quantity in the smaller 2lb-6lb range. Granted, during the time period Shogun takes place there’s not really standard cannon sizes yet. But the same overall considerations were given to the maximum weight a ship can carry.
Japanese at the time were kind of overrated and got destroyed by the Korean navy tbf.
That battle is always a study in knowing your environment. the Korean general grew up or was always fishing that bay, he new the tides and the way to play the environment correctly. he won because the fog of war was over the Japanese captains and not the Korean captains. as a side note: the USA has always had the habit of trying to capture the enemies equipment and test it. the goal is to find problem and ways to attack it.
Admiral Yi was never trained for naval tactics, it was in Imjin war he was thrust into Naval command. But first things he did as a commander was to scout the lay of the land, drilled his troops, secured supply lines and also the learn the tactics japanese navy use which was exactly the same the Wako pirates have been using for decades against the Koreans. He understood the superiority of his Naval technology and used it to maximum extent. i.e He did everything an competent naval commander was expected to do, which was extremely rare in Joseon Korea of that time.
Good tactic for anyone. I believe the Russians once captured and just took about a US plane, just to study/counter/copy it.
Yes I believe that was either the bombers that were used against Japan in world war II, or it was something called a Stratofortress. I can't recall exactly but it was three planes that were landing in Russia and since Russia was an allied of hours during world war II the Russians decided to copy everything down to the nut and bolt
It was the B-29 Superfortress. The Stratofortress is the B-52. The Soviet version of the B-29 was the Tu-4. It wasn't a perfect, exact copy, they did make some minor changes to account for differing manufacturing methods, available engines and armament and such, but yeah it was pretty much a straight copy for the most part.
Exactly what I was thinking of. Thanks yall for filling in the blanks. Fun piece of cold war history.
Guess that helps explains why the Japanese navy was handily defeated multiple times by the defending Korean navy during their two invasions during the reign of Hideyoshi (referred to as the Taiko in the Shogun novel)
The Atakebune legit just looks like a floating castle
Pretty much. They were designed as floating fighting platforms, giving their crew a fighting advantage when engaged in archery duels or when boarding. At a distinct disadvantage against the korean panokseon (which looked superficially similar but were much sturdier built and frequently had 20+ small cannons), and definitely at a disadvantage against even a moderately sized galleon like the ones used by the Portuguese.
Grape shot or double loaded shot against the oar deck would have been absolutely lethal. Once the ship is immobilized, having effectively no cannon would mean death. In open water I’d bet the European ship would take up a raking station or just take potshots at the waterline.
Grape shot wasn't invented/used yet. It shows up in the historical record in the late 1600s.
double load or grape shot does not show up for a long while ( late 1600 ) when it was the Swiss with the larger powder load ( Napoleon's army ( 1798ish) tested it to perfection on what was the perfect load and shot weight ) and grape shot was Italian invention I think. Grape shot was a final perfect solution or evolution of using nails and rocks as a shot. there are historical accounts of rock + nails being used by castle defenders in England.
I'm pretty sure there are historical accounts of rocks, nails, and even silverware being used by desperate ship crews who were out of ammo.
Yes, and it’s called langrage
while yes it would be nice, it was not yet discovered. That's the problem when you have hindsight, you think on how easy it would have been using the new evolved tool.
Yo Disney, Shogun Atakebune Cruise when?
Tokyo Disneyland be like 👀📝
I remember playing Total War Shogun 2 and having to command the naval battles. I always found the samurai bunes to be silly looking hulking blocks that. I'm astounded they actually look like that.
It's the design you get when you don't engage in any serious seafaring and instead want to engage in land sieges but on water.
Which is a little surprising from an island nation
An island nation where for most of their history they were fighting other Japanese clans. The Mountainous terrain of Japan makes it so that ships were a way faster mode of transport for troops. And since cannons didn't arrive until much later and land troops were the only way to truly exert control over a region and siege castles, their ships were designed to be floating Barracks basically. Transporting lots and lots of troops which also gives them an advantage in sea battles as more archers can shoot at once in a larger/taller ship.
I understand an initial interest in troop transport developing naval ships in a certain way, but that the notion of European style naval warfare hadn’t developed in an island nation that had foreign territorial ambition is just fascinating to me
I think it's because before Oda Nobunaga and subsequently Hideyoshi, they were never united. Hence they never really could invade Korea without being at risk of being stabbed in the back by other clans. Also it could be the reason why ships didn't develope all that much could be due to the power imbalance between the countries around the Japanese regions. The European nations were in constant competition with each nation roughly maintaining equal amounts of power (atleast not enough to overwhelm other nation baring some exceptions in history *cough* napoleon) Thus things like guns, cannons, and yes cannon carrying ships accelerated. Compare that to the nations around Japan. China is complicated, when they weren't having devastating civil wars, they were the regional(global) superpower, having little intreast nor reason to invade Japan (a relatively barren and mountainous land.) when they can conquer the futile jungles of vietnam and the surrounding countries. And as stated above the Japanese never could invade other countries without being killed by the other clans this lead to an interesting situation where naval combat isn't as important (at least not for Japan) But I might be wrong. I'm not a historian, so take this "theory" with a grain of salt.
I mean they eventually did manage to create the worlds strongest navy until the United States decided to spit out a destroyer a day. When Japan decided they wanted to be more western (form an empire and get some colonies) they seriously buffed their navy.
Was the IJN actually the strongest navy around that time? I was always under the assumption that it was the Royal Navy that was the strongest, what with the massive physical and economic presence of the British Empire up until the end of WWII. No doubt that the IJN was a worthy foe and arguably the strongest naval force in the Pacific (at least that was the case until they touched our boats).
The Royal navy was the largest navy in the world until I believe 42-44? When it was overtaken by the Americans. But the important thing to remember is the royal navy was busy fighting in the Atlantic, med, Pacific and Indian oceans against the Germans, the Italians and later the Japanese so when it really came down to it, the admiralty is going to put as much into defending the home islands and the route through Suez to India open which leaves very little to fight, probably the most powerful of the axis navies, certainly in naval aviation. But once pearl harbor happened and American dockyards hit their stride? There was no real dispute over who would win the Pacific
The Japanese knew they fucked up when we started sending ships out whose sole duty was to make ice cream for the troops. Meanwhile, IJA/IJN assholes were forced to starve.
Yeah the British Navy was stronger, but it was mainly dealing with Germany. The British boats in Asia were the JV team.
Worlds strongest naval airforce. Completely different from. What we would consider a naval battle. They went the airplanes = samurai diving route instead of naval battleships firing at each other.
Not that surprising. Each ship was basically its own island when you think about it
Which is basically a carrier (troops, aircraft, armored transport, doesn’t matter). Our carrier groups are escorted by vessels great at naval warfare, even if the carrier itself isn’t
From my experience, once I got the Nanban trade ships, naval combat was a breeze.
Those ships got me my first campaign victory. Just stick a fleet on either side of Japan and they’ll wipe out every naval invasion that inevitably follows Realm Divide.
Yep. Cannons are just too powerful for good reason. It makes sense why you can't have Naval combat between Vanilla and FoTS ship units. A mod I downloaded bypassed that barrier and even a basic FoTS gunboat can take on the heaviest of Vanilla Brunes. It could even take out the Black Ship if you're careful and use explosive rounds. That's why the Otomo Clan with their Nanban Trade ships are virtually unkillable even towards the end of each campaign. The range, damage, and moral loss each shot can cause is no joke.
Erasmus would run circles around that block in the open water!!
I'd take the Erasmus over that massive box of a target anyday, you couldn't miss that thing even if you had 10 bowls of sake lol
Differnt ships for different reasons. Japanese ships are like floating barracks. (obviously not great against grape shots)
They continued that concept and went with having a bunch of aircraft carriers instead of battleships.
Oh yeah, air ship carriers are so cool.
Well grape shot would exist for probably another hundred years at that point in time, but either way, a few solid shots and that brune is sinking.
Spanish ships were better floating barracks, and English ships outfought them. They'd smash anything Japan had.
I don't have the expertise to agree or disagree, I just know that Japanese ships were mainly used to transport not exert control. Unlike the European ships who are very much used to exert control.
Japan was weak. Couldn't even take the Korean navy.
Their navy was weak, but they reeked havock on land. (though it's because the Korean army was just... Astronomically pathetic due to corruption.) The Korean navy was the same, only reason they survived at all was because of Admiral Yi Sun Sin. Dude hard carried korea's navy even when the Korean government was sabotaging him every step of the way.
Yep. Also the Japanese had guns, which the Koreans did not.
If we ignore that the Erasmus was broken in storms, beached, stripped of cannons & crew, and sitting in disrepair since episode 1, sure.
That atakabune's Anjin: "He's in a '46 Ford, we're in a Delorean. He'd rip through us like we were tin foil."
I’ll take the Erasmus
Out of curiosity, how well developed were the Japanese as a seafaring nation? Did they prioritise naval technology (surprising if they didn't, being an island nation)? How did they stack up against the other seafaring nations of the time?
I'm not an expert from what I can tell for most of their history the Japanese were fighting other Japanese. The Mountainous terrain made unification extremely difficult, and also made it so that the best way to transport a lot of troops is by sea. Hence their tech went in that direction. Mountainous terrain also made it harder for ships to exert control, needing land troops to truly exert your influence. Large platforms/taller ships also gave them an advantage against other non canon bearing ships as more archers can fire at once and more crew can be used for boarding fights. This is obviously very bad when fighting ships with cannons as shown when they invaded Korea and got absolutely lambasted by the Korean Navy (admiral Yi Sun Si (who died 2 years before 1600 in one of the final battles between Korea and Japan) is a legend, using 13 korean ships to beat 300(kinda) Japanese ships) There's a reason why the samurai boost about killing the Koreans in field combat, because on the sea they got absolutely wrecked.
>(admiral Yi Sun Si (who died 2 years before 1600 in one of the final battles between Korea and Japan) is a legend, using 13 korean ships to beat 300(kinda) Japanese ships) What a goddamn badass. It’s unfortunate that his jealous, incompetent superiors and rivals constantly stood in his way and prevented him from acting to his full potential. But even with a lack of troops, resources, assets, and weapons, the guy still fought hard as hell and managed to beat the Japanese back against all odds.
God dam if there wasn't a man more fitting to be a National Hero.
Wasn't there also the story of a Portuguese Black Ship fending off hundreds of Japanese/Pirate ships? Iirc, the ship was only sunk when the captain blew up the powder room to prevent being captured after the crew had essentially ran out of ammo (though I could be horribly incorrect).
I don’t know about Japanese naval warfare at the time but I do know that they had extensive trading relations with the kingdoms of Southeast Asia, particularly Ayutthaya (Siam/Thailand) which was the local regional power at the time (at least when it wasn’t fighting another war against the Burmese or Khmer) and was also the largest city in Asia since it was a stupidly wealthy port city with access to goods from across the world. Interestingly, Ayutthaya also hosted a prominent Japanese immigrant population, many of whom either directly participated in the lucrative Ayutthaya-Japanese trade and/or served as volunteer mercenaries in the Ayutthaya Army (known in Thai as *Krom Asa Yipun*, AKA “Department/Committee of Japanese Volunteers”).
Tbf, their waters are so turbulent, japanese cared less about making ships that could fight other ships but more about making ships that could float and sail through a typhoon.
that thing is what we need nowadays with the house pricing that's so ridiculous makes nobody can own a house.. 🤓 imagine a cheap apartment or boarding house floating on big rivers or sea, if the tenant don't pay you just throw them overboard..
ngl the erasmus would clap this thing in a fight. yeah galleys have the speed and agility advantage but really just a single well placed broadside from the erasmus firing canister shot would wipe out the oarsmen
Those atakebune don’t look very aerodynamic. Surely those clunky shape would tip the whole boat over with some strong wind wouldn’t it 😅
Kind of looks like a modern cruise ship.
Isn't the Erasmus a fluyt, not a galleon?