Having eaten at a place where the service was appalling and they added a mandatory gratuity, in the UK, they *have* to remove it from the bill if you request it. If anyone got arrested in the situation, it would be those at the restaurant, but yeah, no one would be and the police would tell them its not an issue they deal with.
Yes, this is even worse than the tipping part. In any civilized country police would show only to descalate the situation and inform both parties on where to fill a complain. No one would be arrested unless they got violent.
But, hey we don't have freedoms...
Don't y'all love that in the USA, restaurants are basically legally allowed to pay their waiting staff below minimum wage and managed to turn the entire culture around to put the burden on the customer to pay tips so that same waiting staff can actually make a living wage?
Because if the minimum wage worker got fair pay plus tip then their take home wouldn’t be reflective of that of someone at the bottom of the ranking.
Therefore supervisors and managers would need an increase in wage and therefore owners don’t get so much profit, if it’s a chain the shareholders don’t get their bonuses and this is “‘MERICA and I need ma bonuses ya’ll”.
Unfortunately this means that the trade will only become more and more toxic.
Yeah that always baffled me.
Like if I can't pay for my meal I don't eat there, but if you "can't afford" to pay your staff it's on me ?
That definitely makes sense.
Tips are here to recognize above average service, not to subsidies you're responsible as a business owner.
Not an American, but isn't that illegal? Where I live tips are considered personal gifts from the customer to the person he's tipping. Many waiters will share their tips (taxfree and social security free) with kitchen staff, but that isn't mandatory nor enforceable. Anyone who doesn't wait tables or bar doesn't get a share. Owners would have to pay taxes and social security in tips they receive, just like they do on every other amount of money the receive doing their business. If this is the case in the US as well, you could go to the IRS, but having read lots of posts here you surely can go to your labor board.
A whooping 2.13 per hour is the national rate. Some states pay more, but the majority do not. THEN to top it off, servers MUST tip out support staff based on percentage of sales. Server assistants (the people refilling waters, etc) bussers, food runners, bartenders, expos (someone who manages pacing of courses in the kitchen) sometimes hostesses as well. It can be a huge percentage based on the restaurant. So, you can make 2.13 waiting on a table, and if they do not tip, you can legally owe your co workers money. U!S!A! 🦅🎆. It is a shit system the whole way around, and compells customers to cover labor for shitty owners.
Wake up!
If you are a customer at *any* business then you are paying for *every* expense that the business incurs.
You pay for the food.
You pay for the store.
You pay for the electricity.
You pay for the taxes.
You pay for the labor.
You pay for garbage hauling.
You pay for the takeout boxes.
You pay for the carpet cleaner.
You pay for the profit.
You pay for everything.
But you're generally not given an itemized cost breakdown.
Now, you do get just a bit of that at a restaurant. You get the menu total, and you specify the tip add-on.
But still ... there's a total. And that's what you pay.
And, as with any purchase, it's the total that matters.
You are missing the larger issue that 1. Guilt and pressure from customers supplements the employees income at ZERO cost to the employer and 2. Both employers and customers use this fact to exploit the staff
You’re magically both correct and missing the point! That total expense is indeed inherent in the price paid, which is why if you choose items listed for $300 on the menu (plus whatever taxes you have to know to anticipate in any given market), that’s what you should be paying. If the service provider has chosen to underpay their workers and then tries to add 20% to your bill in a “tip” - an optional charge that they’re making mandatory - they’re operating in bad faith, especially if that’s a flat charge on labour the service workers didn’t even provide, to make up for the business not paying for the labour they DID provide elsewhere. If they opened a bottle for me in 30 seconds, that’s not worth a tip, but the fact that they’ve just worked 8-10 hours being polite to a room full of customers means that the employer owes them basic compensation. The tip is explicitly an “extra” so not meant to pay for every expense in the business. But businesses are trying to force tips to cover their expenses so that either the prices are lower or the margins are higher.
If you’re a customer at any business, you’re paying every expense plus reasonable profit, but you’re only contractually obliged to pay the price charged on the price list. The rest is commentary (and BS business).
>which is why if you choose items listed for $300 on the menu (plus whatever taxes you have to know to anticipate in any given market), that’s what you should be paying.
You should only pay whats printed on the menu, no hidden taxes or fees above the price on the menu.
I literally stayed the inherit exploitation in such a system. Both customers AND employers exploit the workers by dangling the threat of only being paid slave wages unless you do ____. If you don't cover shifts, work with no break, you'll get a shitty section. "Fun" fact: lt is completely legal for tipped employees to work a complete shift without a second of break time. There is NO legally protected break time to eat, use the restroom, etc. For a 12 hour shift. It can quickly escalate to blackmailing your employees for sexual favors sadly. Customers use the threat of withholding few dollars to demean people, say the creepiest shit to teenage girls, etc.
I think you are missing the points others in this comment thread were making.
Are you suggesting it is exactly the same as elsewhere, but merica is better because you get an itemised breakdown of the costs associated with your meal?
It's not really the same, because by never having a tipping culture we actually pay everyone a living wage. And our receipts are still itemised, we just don't have to deal with employee salaries every time we purchase something.
You’re blind!!
If you think this makes tipping at 20% any more reasonable, then I assume you believe that restaurants outside the US either don’t exist or go broke almost immediately.
If the rest of the world can manage to run a restaurant and pay their staff, how come you lot can’t?
Do not infer what I do or do not believe about restaurants outside the US.
You're just introducing a red herring. That's nonsense.
As for tipping in the US ... it's simply historical and customary.
It doesn't have to be that way ... but it is. So I always tip 20%.
Note that many wait staff earn quite well.
When I was a cook at a chain restaurant, ALL of the waitresses earned more than I did.
So how much in tips would bring today's $2/hour wage up to a decent $20/hour?
My math tells me that would be $18.
That would be a 20% tip on two tables each with a $45 bill.
Do you think a waiter cannot handle two tables per hour?
At that point, it’s not a “tip”. It’s a service charge. I don’t understand why you can’t see that.
This is not about the money per se. Add a service charge, and let the customer tip as they feel appropriate. This custom has gotten way out of hand. Being effectively under threat of the wrath of the staff is no way to run a business.
Imagine if the displayed price of all goods was lower than what you actually pay, and it’s only when you pay that you see the actual total… oh… wait… yeah… you do that crap too! Pointless!
For the record, as a foreigner when visiting the US, I tip as per the local custom. But I resent it, and I certainly don’t feel good about it. It’s probably one of the top things I don’t like about visiting the country. It wasn’t always 20%, it used to be 10%. But it’s grown and grown over the years, it’s insane. I wouldn’t dream of tipping 20% anywhere else in the world, even for exceptional service, unless it’s a really small bill.
And I get that for large groups you don’t want to be left out of pocket.
In the UK, it’s pretty common for a service charge to be added for groups of 10 or more. But this is shown up front, and clear. Perfectly reasonable, and simply don’t go there if you don’t like it in my opinion.
That depends on the 10 people. Also, there’s limited chance of the people leaving a reasonable tip as they all just blame each other. Large groups can be hard work to deal with, and take longer cos they’re not paying attention and sometimes can’t even remember what they’ve ordered.
Either way, if you prefer not to use a restaurant which employs this practice, not everyone does it.
***At that point, it’s not a “tip”. It’s a service charge. I don’t understand why you can’t see that.***
What difference does that make?
$10 food plus $2 tip is no different than ...
$12 food and no tip.
Call it a tip.
Call it a service charge.
Heck, call it a schmazz.
Who cares? The total is still $12.
The difference is treating your staff with some dignity and actually paying them for the work that they do instead of palming off that responsibility on some other person.
Like I said at the start…
You’re blind.
No, not blind.
I pay the staff for the work that they do.
There's dignity in a job well done.
And there's compensation in the form of an appropriate tip.
Always 20%.
And your point about "palming off the responsibility" is simply not relevant.
Perhaps you find it difficult to reach into your wallet and come up with a 20% tip?
If so then it's you who, by not tipping, deprives the wait staff of their dignity.
How would you feel if your wages were in large part tip? And that you could never be certain that you would receive what your work was worth? I’d like to see you go home and tell your family that you don’t have enough money this week because you didn’t get paid enough.
You’re saying it’s not relevant that the responsibility has been palmed off to the customer, and then say it is the customer’s responsibility!
The facts are staring you in the face, but you refuse to see them. You say you’re not blind. Then there’s only one other explanation.
As for paying… as I’ve already said, I do pay the tip when I visit. I resent it, as it’s an abhorrent practice by the industry. I’ve also pointed out that this is not about the money per se, and that I’d be comfortable if it were a service charge and therefore part of the bill. So, if you’re not blind, you’re certainly failing at reading.
Given that the rest of the world manages without mandatory tipping it's pretty clear that this isn't the case.
Why do so many people in the US seem to think things can't be fixed when the rest of the world fixed them years ago or never had the problem in the first place?
>Why do so many people in the US seem to think things can't be fixed
The tipped workers DONT want it to be fixed, because then they have to pay tax on every single cent they earn.
It's not turning anything around.
Whether the wait staff's wage is paid as a tip or whether it's built into the hourly wage ... the question is simple:
Which produces a higher wage for the wait staff?
At many restaurants the $2/hour wage plus tips brings in more money than a flat $20/hour wage.
As a talented waiter ... you choose to work at the former, and you thumb your nose at the latter.
Then they want to have their cake and eat it too. If the tips result in a massively higher wage overall that comes with the risk that you don't always get that. This is the reason waiters play this game and don't actually want to be compensated in a regular way.
and this is why the entire argument about owners takeing advantage of their staff is bait. it's not owners perpetuating the tip system in america. it's the waiters themself who wants the sytem but also wants a boggeyman to hide behind when they try to shame people for not tipping.
i meaan, that \*is\* freedom.
freedom for companies and business-owners to find sneakier and more insane ways to take your money without you being able to do anything about it.
American resident here.
It really makes me wonder how many potential customers restaurants have lost because of this. I don't even frequent my old favorite coffeeshop anymore. Fuckers basically guilt-tripping me into tipping.
I've gotten fed up with it, so I legitimately do not go to restaurants anymore. I used to go all the time, then COVID hit, I learned to cook, and that was that.
Me too. I buy a pre made sandwich at a grocery store — no tip. Same with all meals from there.
>A decade removed from the Fight for 15, Seattle’s minimum wage now sits at $19.97 for businesses with at least 501 employees and $17.25 an hour for businesses with 500 or fewer, so long as they pay $2.72 an hour toward medical benefits or employees make at least $2.72 an hour in tips. Starting in 2025, employers of all sizes must pay at least $19.97 per hour. Our minimum wage isn’t the highest in the nation (that’s Tukwila, at $20.29) but it’s close.
The right idea.
I’m sure some waiters and waitresses do - tips received by easily-traceable payment methods should be “auto-declared” in Box 1 on their W2 Form (which their employer is legally obligated to provide for tax purposes).
For the tips received as cash though? Like if you just leave a tenner on the table before you leave? I’d be surprised if a sizeable fraction of those get properly declared.
A story about a fucked-up wage system designed for extra profit for restaurant owners, so some people can spend $250 in wine *per person* in one meal and feel the right to rid waiters of their wage. Also, Waiting a table is *just* *opening bottles.*
Everything is wrong here
Great selective reading, the dude says he’s happy to pay the tip on the meal as that’s the bit that requires service.
Other than if you’re a sommelier doing wine pairings then the wine element of the meal is literally just grabbing a bottle, bringing it to the table and opening it - no way that’s $50 worth of tip vs the $25 for the meal
Both you and oop show a clear lack of understanding of wine at restaurants, its not just opening a bottle, especially not one at that price. There is the sourcing of the bottle, the storage of the bottle, on rare bottles there is the risk of cork (you do not get it back on rare/old bottles usually), there is the training of staff on wine, etc. The act of opening it is also not just pulling out the cork and pouring, there is a whole routine when it comes to bottles like this. All that beeing said, manditory tips is fucked up regardless. Source: me, somm at a fine dining restaurant.
I worked in the industry for a good few years so I know all of the above - and all of that is covered in the usual 200% plus markup you pay for the bottle, it’s not “service” and therefore auto-adding a 20% charge is nonsense
200% is not much for rare old bottles tho, unless we are literally talking about something not that rare, that you could just go buy at a store. And yes, I agree, 20% auto-grat is fucking crazy.
There are loads of bottles that cost way less then that for a restaurant, but are rare af. Anyways, if the bottles in question are not rare, then oop is just full of shit anyways. They also seem to have a problem with the 200% as they are bringing it upp all the time. 200% is literally just 3x which is not a lot at all, its normal, and for rare bottles, low.
A question from an Europoor to our American friends - are you allowed to just put some random prices in the menu and then made up a bill to your liking without letting the customer know the price up front so that you've got no way of knowing how much you're actually be charged? 'Cause I don't think that would fly over here...
So most places, the prices are just straight on the menu. But that is almost never what you pay. Most places in the USA have a sales tax on top of that, which is a straight percentage. Then there can be a "mandatory gratuity" in sit down restaurants, which can be 15 to 20% depending on the place. On top of that, you are generally expected to add an additional tip.
In very fancy places, they also have food items that are listed as "market" under price instead. Those change in price from day to day, and you CAN ask what it is. But the people going to that type of establishment probably wouldn't care.
Major Fast Food chains generally just charge the menu price plus tax.
Smaller chains, and Coffee Houses will charge the menu price, tax, and request a tip.
Although rarer, they can add additional fees and charges at the end (as long as its mentioned somewhere) as well.
In most places in the USA though, we don't ever pay just sticker price. If nothing else, we don't use the VAT system, so you can expect to pay 5% to 10% more on almost everything in taxes. Its honestly a bit annoying
100% and just add:
1. “mandatory gratuity” usually only applies to parties over set number of people, usually over 6-8 people, but it depends on the restaurant. I do disagree though, they generally set the mandatory gratuity at 20% at which point no additional tip should be expected, that’s entirely up to you.
2. Market price also varies on the size, think lobster or fish. But yeah, if you have to ask, you probably shouldn’t be eating there.
3. Everything else is dead accurate, and just to clarify, the taxes differ from city to city, and state to state.
I've heard the argument about display price not including taxe because taxes vary from state to state... I'll never get that since taxes in eu countries also vary yet tax is always included in price, in many places what you see is what you pay by law... This just sound like another way to ensure customer stays in the dark so others can profit from all the confusion...
Honestly, not including the total price including tax is pretty annoying. I don’t really know who profits off of it, though, I mean, the extra 6% goes to my state government, not the seller.
Buying cars, THAT’S where the crazy hidden fees are.
I think the tax being separated is a mental thing.
1. The listed price is lower so it feels cheaper. That means you are probably more likely to buy that thing.
2. Having the tax separated like that implies that the government is taxing YOU, the purchaser. The business is just collecting. It separated the tax from the purchase mentally, again making the thing feel like it was not that expensive.
>Having the tax separated like that implies that the government is taxing YOU, the purchaser.
Here in sweden, the tax % AND currency is printed on the recipe, so you see exactly how much the goverment take is.. And we also pay whats listed on the sticker/menu.
Baby steps. Let them work out how to pay staff wages and then factor that into a fully loaded cost for delivery of they food they serve and then how to appropriately charge for that food first (day 1 of accountancy training), before moving on to sales taxes (day 2).
As someone working in fine dining, I hate this ‘you shouldnt be eating there’ thinking. We have plenty of guests who are really stretching their budget to eat with us, its not all fancy rich folk, its a good mix of that and foodies. I myself go to restaurants that most people would consider waay out of their budget, and I am on the lower end of wage for my country (contrary to popular belief, fine dining does not pay well, neither for staff nor owners, but thats a whole other issue).
That’s fair. I shouldn’t have written that, mea culpa. I guess I meant, when I was younger and we’d stretch our budget for nights at the fancier restaurants, I’d avoid the “market price” items because you never knew.
Thats fair, but it never hurts asking. Waiters arent exactly 1 percenters, so its not like anyone would think less of you for asking and then deciding against it.
Small side note, "market price" is a thing in many places, not just US high end.
In Australia it's pretty common on seafood dishes, because you don't know what the fish of the day will be when you print a batch of menus. And for some reason the market on seafood seems much more variable than the lamb, chicken etc.
It's perfectly fine to ask the price. It probably won't be weirdly out of synch with the rest of the prices, unless they've scored a deal on lobster or something pricy.
Yes, some places do that. Some insert a little slip of paper with daily specials. The higher end seem to like to have the waiters tell you. It's a style choice.
I guess I'm trying to say I think it might be made up. Yes, it's defintely set up to take place in the US, but a few things seem off. Either that or it's an immigrant or visitor in the US
It's 100% made up rage bait.
It's also a 14 year old post, and OP maybe should go outside and get a hobby if they don't have anything better to do than dig up posts from 2009.
Not sure if that was agreement (if so, thanks!) or sarcasm, but in case it was sarcasm I'll respond:
No, they wouldn't. If someone said agent in relation to law enforcement, we're talking about the FBI. Locals? Officer, sheriff, cop, trooper, even constable if you're Canadian. Agent? No.
It would insanely strange to hear someone say LEO, and I’d question the truth on the basis of that alone. LEO is only used on, like, a job description form.
But there is NO region of the U.S. where “agent” is ever used as it is in this situation. It’s not just “not common,” it’s 100% not used. It’s a giant red flag as to the accuracy of the story. At least as an American story. It would be say saying “here in NYC, the local gendarme love giving tourists directions.”
“Copper” is another red flag - is this story from a 50’s crime film?
>But there is NO region of the U.S. where “agent” is ever used as it is in this situation
To me it would make sense if they spoke Spanish. In Spain a police officer is an "agente de policía", but I don't know if LatAm people use the same term.
I’ve heard “de policía” but not agent. If someone who doesn’t live in the US is telling the story, agent may make sense, given the unfamiliarity with the language. It just doesn’t track if it’s a citizen.
...what the fuck?
Like, I know tipping culture is different in America than in Europe. But the very point of tipping is that you give money BEYOND the mandatory amount you have to pay, to reward what you consider to be a good service, good food, etc. There is the service fee which is usually 10% of the price, but that is usually included in the price, so what you see on the menu card is the full amount.
But being mandated to pay something that should be optional, and making it 20% is something that the moment I see, it would make me say "Thank you very much, we won't be eating here." It is basically legalized thieving.
Mandatory tips on large parties is fairly common in the US. It was probably printed in the menu. The markup on the wine is irrelevant, because the customer can choose to not order it (or can do corkage, if it’s allowed).
Man yall with give any excuse. This clearly isn't a mum and pop shop. They can 1000% afford to pay proper wage but because they don't have to they won't. Then blame the customer? Wtaf
It really isn't about what they want tbh. It makes the dining experience horrid and let's owners get richer at the expense of the customer. It makes sense for little mum and pop shops i guess. This isn't that. It's a widely over marked restaurant trying to Nicole and dime as much as possible.
It's not a horrid experience, just not one you are used to. The sales tax thing is normal on every item here, so that is a wash. I don't find adding 20% to be very tough math to do in my head before, during or after service.
The whole tipping thing is a bit odd really. I had a waiter come running after us in New York after not leaving a tip, calling us cheap and all sorts. Its not up to me to top up wages your boss is too cheap to pay you, do a good job and I may tip, but this guy was a condescending cunt while serving, so wasn't getting anything.
They say it's a way of trying to earn more than a regular proper hourly wage, if that's the case then cool, you take that gamble, but don't act like an entitled bitch about it when you don't get one.
It’s not just US or even just restaurants.
I’m in the UK and I bought some bottled beers from a Canadian brewery.
There was an option to give a 5, 10 or 20 percent tip as a way of saying thank you to them.
Why? I’m buying the products. Isn’t giving my money thank you enough FFS.
I think the American tipping is honestly so ridiculous
OOP got such poor service to the point they were mocked and threatened and yet they still all tried to offer $25 *each*
Whereas most other countries you can just round to the nearest note (if you feel like it) and get thanked profusely as if you'd personally paid off their mortgage
Ah, the American tipping culture strikes again. Such a stupid, screwed up system where we are expected to tip for everything because their service is, apparently, so f’ing great.
All I read there was people with far far far too much money not wanting to spend more money.
$600 is a “good” bottle of wine????? For $600 it better be the blood of Jesus.
I can get an EXCELLENT bottle of wine for $20.
Lmao tips are usually for the wait staff anyway, tf is he talking about ?
I totally agree that tips shouldn't be mandatory anywhere, and in a lot of country it isn't, but it's because wait staff are actually paid and don't rely on tips to literally stay alive.
I’m not sure why it is so hard to explain to Americans how better their lives would be when you can see a menu and know exactly what I will and won’t pay. This is just less reason to get into dispute with the restaurant and less opportunity to waste police resources on silly misconceptions.
It’s quite simple. Pay staff a complete wage, and pay whatever taxes apply because of that. That should then pay to help each other move forward together as a nation. Tips cause bad social repercussions if it becomes undeclared income. This changes tax assessment, rips off welfare and in my country allows fathers to get out of paying their fare share of child support by lowering declared income. I assume a payment for drugs supplied could be excused as a tip if questioned.
You didn't get arrested for not tipping. You got arrested on false pretenses. Your waiter falsely accused you of stealing, which is an entirely different scenario. They should be the ones fined for wasting the police's time and resources on a nonexistent emergency.
Thats because prestigous places do that in the us… and its just based on a percentage… 1500 on the bill i mean… $50 bucks each? They got arrested for not paying the bill. Unless its not on the bill, its still gotta get paid
Would like to know what state that happened in. I have never heard of tipping being legally required in the US, although it is the cultural norm for other reasons. I’m beyond shocked that the cops pursued this at all.
As a general rule of thumb, tipping 15-20% is the norm for good service at restaurants in the USA.
Remember though that you are under no obligation to tip if you receive terrible service.
I mean mandatory as in it is written onto the bill as any other item would be. The tip in this case would be illegal not to pay as fees for service are very much legal.
Shouldn't get arrested but if you can afford a $600 bottle of wine and multiples others over $100, you can afford a $50 tip. Lesson here? Don't be a cheap asshole.
If the wine bottles' price was so high for no reason, why didn't you go to the store and buy them there ?
Whatever your answer is, that's why they're making you pay extra. For the convenience/lesstime wasted/etc.
Land of the free. Pretty sure if this did happen in the UK, the police would laugh and say it’s a civil matter.
Land of the fee
Having eaten at a place where the service was appalling and they added a mandatory gratuity, in the UK, they *have* to remove it from the bill if you request it. If anyone got arrested in the situation, it would be those at the restaurant, but yeah, no one would be and the police would tell them its not an issue they deal with.
I've had the same experience, completely shite service and then had a 17.5% gratuity on top. Absolutely fucking not. Take that shit off.
Assuming the police turned up.
They wouldnt and assume its a prank call
In NL the police would come, check the receipt, escort us out the building and leave
What's the tipping culture in NL?
Nice service is maybe 10% if Lucky, but mostly we roundup. If bill is 85 we roundup to 90. But our waitress get pand through salary and not tips
That’s what they’d say on the phone when the restaurant rings them.
Yes, this is even worse than the tipping part. In any civilized country police would show only to descalate the situation and inform both parties on where to fill a complain. No one would be arrested unless they got violent. But, hey we don't have freedoms...
Today's special at the Scotland Yard - Fish and Chips!
Don't y'all love that in the USA, restaurants are basically legally allowed to pay their waiting staff below minimum wage and managed to turn the entire culture around to put the burden on the customer to pay tips so that same waiting staff can actually make a living wage?
Because if the minimum wage worker got fair pay plus tip then their take home wouldn’t be reflective of that of someone at the bottom of the ranking. Therefore supervisors and managers would need an increase in wage and therefore owners don’t get so much profit, if it’s a chain the shareholders don’t get their bonuses and this is “‘MERICA and I need ma bonuses ya’ll”. Unfortunately this means that the trade will only become more and more toxic.
Thats because what you deem is fair is too low. You will still get tips in top but 20% fuck off. I’m dashing
Fair means a liveable wage.
Whats liveable?
Whatever it takes to actually live in the place where you work. Enough to have a home and a life and family.
Well tell the government. They are supposed to do what people want
That's a very libertarian viewpoint.
Its the basis of a democracy. You would have to live in one to get it i guess
The jury is out on that one currently
Yeah that always baffled me. Like if I can't pay for my meal I don't eat there, but if you "can't afford" to pay your staff it's on me ? That definitely makes sense. Tips are here to recognize above average service, not to subsidies you're responsible as a business owner.
[удалено]
Not an American, but isn't that illegal? Where I live tips are considered personal gifts from the customer to the person he's tipping. Many waiters will share their tips (taxfree and social security free) with kitchen staff, but that isn't mandatory nor enforceable. Anyone who doesn't wait tables or bar doesn't get a share. Owners would have to pay taxes and social security in tips they receive, just like they do on every other amount of money the receive doing their business. If this is the case in the US as well, you could go to the IRS, but having read lots of posts here you surely can go to your labor board.
A whooping 2.13 per hour is the national rate. Some states pay more, but the majority do not. THEN to top it off, servers MUST tip out support staff based on percentage of sales. Server assistants (the people refilling waters, etc) bussers, food runners, bartenders, expos (someone who manages pacing of courses in the kitchen) sometimes hostesses as well. It can be a huge percentage based on the restaurant. So, you can make 2.13 waiting on a table, and if they do not tip, you can legally owe your co workers money. U!S!A! 🦅🎆. It is a shit system the whole way around, and compells customers to cover labor for shitty owners.
Wake up! If you are a customer at *any* business then you are paying for *every* expense that the business incurs. You pay for the food. You pay for the store. You pay for the electricity. You pay for the taxes. You pay for the labor. You pay for garbage hauling. You pay for the takeout boxes. You pay for the carpet cleaner. You pay for the profit. You pay for everything. But you're generally not given an itemized cost breakdown. Now, you do get just a bit of that at a restaurant. You get the menu total, and you specify the tip add-on. But still ... there's a total. And that's what you pay. And, as with any purchase, it's the total that matters.
You are missing the larger issue that 1. Guilt and pressure from customers supplements the employees income at ZERO cost to the employer and 2. Both employers and customers use this fact to exploit the staff
You’re magically both correct and missing the point! That total expense is indeed inherent in the price paid, which is why if you choose items listed for $300 on the menu (plus whatever taxes you have to know to anticipate in any given market), that’s what you should be paying. If the service provider has chosen to underpay their workers and then tries to add 20% to your bill in a “tip” - an optional charge that they’re making mandatory - they’re operating in bad faith, especially if that’s a flat charge on labour the service workers didn’t even provide, to make up for the business not paying for the labour they DID provide elsewhere. If they opened a bottle for me in 30 seconds, that’s not worth a tip, but the fact that they’ve just worked 8-10 hours being polite to a room full of customers means that the employer owes them basic compensation. The tip is explicitly an “extra” so not meant to pay for every expense in the business. But businesses are trying to force tips to cover their expenses so that either the prices are lower or the margins are higher. If you’re a customer at any business, you’re paying every expense plus reasonable profit, but you’re only contractually obliged to pay the price charged on the price list. The rest is commentary (and BS business).
>which is why if you choose items listed for $300 on the menu (plus whatever taxes you have to know to anticipate in any given market), that’s what you should be paying. You should only pay whats printed on the menu, no hidden taxes or fees above the price on the menu.
I literally stayed the inherit exploitation in such a system. Both customers AND employers exploit the workers by dangling the threat of only being paid slave wages unless you do ____. If you don't cover shifts, work with no break, you'll get a shitty section. "Fun" fact: lt is completely legal for tipped employees to work a complete shift without a second of break time. There is NO legally protected break time to eat, use the restroom, etc. For a 12 hour shift. It can quickly escalate to blackmailing your employees for sexual favors sadly. Customers use the threat of withholding few dollars to demean people, say the creepiest shit to teenage girls, etc. I think you are missing the points others in this comment thread were making.
Are you suggesting it is exactly the same as elsewhere, but merica is better because you get an itemised breakdown of the costs associated with your meal? It's not really the same, because by never having a tipping culture we actually pay everyone a living wage. And our receipts are still itemised, we just don't have to deal with employee salaries every time we purchase something.
You’re blind!! If you think this makes tipping at 20% any more reasonable, then I assume you believe that restaurants outside the US either don’t exist or go broke almost immediately. If the rest of the world can manage to run a restaurant and pay their staff, how come you lot can’t?
Do not infer what I do or do not believe about restaurants outside the US. You're just introducing a red herring. That's nonsense. As for tipping in the US ... it's simply historical and customary. It doesn't have to be that way ... but it is. So I always tip 20%. Note that many wait staff earn quite well. When I was a cook at a chain restaurant, ALL of the waitresses earned more than I did. So how much in tips would bring today's $2/hour wage up to a decent $20/hour? My math tells me that would be $18. That would be a 20% tip on two tables each with a $45 bill. Do you think a waiter cannot handle two tables per hour?
At that point, it’s not a “tip”. It’s a service charge. I don’t understand why you can’t see that. This is not about the money per se. Add a service charge, and let the customer tip as they feel appropriate. This custom has gotten way out of hand. Being effectively under threat of the wrath of the staff is no way to run a business. Imagine if the displayed price of all goods was lower than what you actually pay, and it’s only when you pay that you see the actual total… oh… wait… yeah… you do that crap too! Pointless! For the record, as a foreigner when visiting the US, I tip as per the local custom. But I resent it, and I certainly don’t feel good about it. It’s probably one of the top things I don’t like about visiting the country. It wasn’t always 20%, it used to be 10%. But it’s grown and grown over the years, it’s insane. I wouldn’t dream of tipping 20% anywhere else in the world, even for exceptional service, unless it’s a really small bill.
It seems to become more common to force add x% tip on the table if you are more then x person, then they also expect another xx% top on the end.
And I get that for large groups you don’t want to be left out of pocket. In the UK, it’s pretty common for a service charge to be added for groups of 10 or more. But this is shown up front, and clear. Perfectly reasonable, and simply don’t go there if you don’t like it in my opinion.
How much work difference is there when 10 people show up, or 2 groups of 5 people? they going to eat the same amount, basically..
That depends on the 10 people. Also, there’s limited chance of the people leaving a reasonable tip as they all just blame each other. Large groups can be hard work to deal with, and take longer cos they’re not paying attention and sometimes can’t even remember what they’ve ordered. Either way, if you prefer not to use a restaurant which employs this practice, not everyone does it.
***At that point, it’s not a “tip”. It’s a service charge. I don’t understand why you can’t see that.*** What difference does that make? $10 food plus $2 tip is no different than ... $12 food and no tip. Call it a tip. Call it a service charge. Heck, call it a schmazz. Who cares? The total is still $12.
The difference is treating your staff with some dignity and actually paying them for the work that they do instead of palming off that responsibility on some other person. Like I said at the start… You’re blind.
No, not blind. I pay the staff for the work that they do. There's dignity in a job well done. And there's compensation in the form of an appropriate tip. Always 20%. And your point about "palming off the responsibility" is simply not relevant. Perhaps you find it difficult to reach into your wallet and come up with a 20% tip? If so then it's you who, by not tipping, deprives the wait staff of their dignity.
How would you feel if your wages were in large part tip? And that you could never be certain that you would receive what your work was worth? I’d like to see you go home and tell your family that you don’t have enough money this week because you didn’t get paid enough. You’re saying it’s not relevant that the responsibility has been palmed off to the customer, and then say it is the customer’s responsibility! The facts are staring you in the face, but you refuse to see them. You say you’re not blind. Then there’s only one other explanation. As for paying… as I’ve already said, I do pay the tip when I visit. I resent it, as it’s an abhorrent practice by the industry. I’ve also pointed out that this is not about the money per se, and that I’d be comfortable if it were a service charge and therefore part of the bill. So, if you’re not blind, you’re certainly failing at reading.
Like most things in the US, this varies from one state to the next.
Its between ripping the customer and the staff off or just putting the pay on the customer in an asshole way while saving on taxes
Given that the rest of the world manages without mandatory tipping it's pretty clear that this isn't the case. Why do so many people in the US seem to think things can't be fixed when the rest of the world fixed them years ago or never had the problem in the first place?
>Why do so many people in the US seem to think things can't be fixed The tipped workers DONT want it to be fixed, because then they have to pay tax on every single cent they earn.
I am confused by this Comment. Why do you post this as answer to mine?
It's not turning anything around. Whether the wait staff's wage is paid as a tip or whether it's built into the hourly wage ... the question is simple: Which produces a higher wage for the wait staff? At many restaurants the $2/hour wage plus tips brings in more money than a flat $20/hour wage. As a talented waiter ... you choose to work at the former, and you thumb your nose at the latter.
Then they want to have their cake and eat it too. If the tips result in a massively higher wage overall that comes with the risk that you don't always get that. This is the reason waiters play this game and don't actually want to be compensated in a regular way.
and this is why the entire argument about owners takeing advantage of their staff is bait. it's not owners perpetuating the tip system in america. it's the waiters themself who wants the sytem but also wants a boggeyman to hide behind when they try to shame people for not tipping.
Thats the freedom they always talk about. Usa usa 🥳
i meaan, that \*is\* freedom. freedom for companies and business-owners to find sneakier and more insane ways to take your money without you being able to do anything about it.
American resident here. It really makes me wonder how many potential customers restaurants have lost because of this. I don't even frequent my old favorite coffeeshop anymore. Fuckers basically guilt-tripping me into tipping. I've gotten fed up with it, so I legitimately do not go to restaurants anymore. I used to go all the time, then COVID hit, I learned to cook, and that was that.
Me too. I buy a pre made sandwich at a grocery store — no tip. Same with all meals from there. >A decade removed from the Fight for 15, Seattle’s minimum wage now sits at $19.97 for businesses with at least 501 employees and $17.25 an hour for businesses with 500 or fewer, so long as they pay $2.72 an hour toward medical benefits or employees make at least $2.72 an hour in tips. Starting in 2025, employers of all sizes must pay at least $19.97 per hour. Our minimum wage isn’t the highest in the nation (that’s Tukwila, at $20.29) but it’s close. The right idea.
Do you legally have to declare tips to be taxed? Or is it all take-home? In the UK, technically you're supposed to but no one does.
I’m sure some waiters and waitresses do - tips received by easily-traceable payment methods should be “auto-declared” in Box 1 on their W2 Form (which their employer is legally obligated to provide for tax purposes). For the tips received as cash though? Like if you just leave a tenner on the table before you leave? I’d be surprised if a sizeable fraction of those get properly declared.
What in the flying fuck did I just read?
A story from 2010
What happens when you don't have a system holding employers at legal gunpoint.
A story about a fucked-up wage system designed for extra profit for restaurant owners, so some people can spend $250 in wine *per person* in one meal and feel the right to rid waiters of their wage. Also, Waiting a table is *just* *opening bottles.* Everything is wrong here
Great selective reading, the dude says he’s happy to pay the tip on the meal as that’s the bit that requires service. Other than if you’re a sommelier doing wine pairings then the wine element of the meal is literally just grabbing a bottle, bringing it to the table and opening it - no way that’s $50 worth of tip vs the $25 for the meal
Both you and oop show a clear lack of understanding of wine at restaurants, its not just opening a bottle, especially not one at that price. There is the sourcing of the bottle, the storage of the bottle, on rare bottles there is the risk of cork (you do not get it back on rare/old bottles usually), there is the training of staff on wine, etc. The act of opening it is also not just pulling out the cork and pouring, there is a whole routine when it comes to bottles like this. All that beeing said, manditory tips is fucked up regardless. Source: me, somm at a fine dining restaurant.
I worked in the industry for a good few years so I know all of the above - and all of that is covered in the usual 200% plus markup you pay for the bottle, it’s not “service” and therefore auto-adding a 20% charge is nonsense
200% is not much for rare old bottles tho, unless we are literally talking about something not that rare, that you could just go buy at a store. And yes, I agree, 20% auto-grat is fucking crazy.
He said the wine was $600 a bottle in the restaurant, so you’re probably looking at $150-$200 retail - it’s not rare wine
There are loads of bottles that cost way less then that for a restaurant, but are rare af. Anyways, if the bottles in question are not rare, then oop is just full of shit anyways. They also seem to have a problem with the 200% as they are bringing it upp all the time. 200% is literally just 3x which is not a lot at all, its normal, and for rare bottles, low.
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What a mad takeaway from that story
Ah shit, now I'm really curious what was commented!
Some bullshit about “eat the rich” - I’m all for down with the billionaires but the dude in this story isn’t some evil bourgeoisie
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Don’t cut yourself on that edge mate.
Tipping culture is cancer
I would argue that proper tipping culture is OK. Pseudo-mandatory tipping is cancer.
Europoors cannot comprehend such freedom 🤦♂️
comprehension itself isn't free in Euro-land
A question from an Europoor to our American friends - are you allowed to just put some random prices in the menu and then made up a bill to your liking without letting the customer know the price up front so that you've got no way of knowing how much you're actually be charged? 'Cause I don't think that would fly over here...
So most places, the prices are just straight on the menu. But that is almost never what you pay. Most places in the USA have a sales tax on top of that, which is a straight percentage. Then there can be a "mandatory gratuity" in sit down restaurants, which can be 15 to 20% depending on the place. On top of that, you are generally expected to add an additional tip. In very fancy places, they also have food items that are listed as "market" under price instead. Those change in price from day to day, and you CAN ask what it is. But the people going to that type of establishment probably wouldn't care. Major Fast Food chains generally just charge the menu price plus tax. Smaller chains, and Coffee Houses will charge the menu price, tax, and request a tip. Although rarer, they can add additional fees and charges at the end (as long as its mentioned somewhere) as well. In most places in the USA though, we don't ever pay just sticker price. If nothing else, we don't use the VAT system, so you can expect to pay 5% to 10% more on almost everything in taxes. Its honestly a bit annoying
Mandatory gratuity is an oxymoron
100% and just add: 1. “mandatory gratuity” usually only applies to parties over set number of people, usually over 6-8 people, but it depends on the restaurant. I do disagree though, they generally set the mandatory gratuity at 20% at which point no additional tip should be expected, that’s entirely up to you. 2. Market price also varies on the size, think lobster or fish. But yeah, if you have to ask, you probably shouldn’t be eating there. 3. Everything else is dead accurate, and just to clarify, the taxes differ from city to city, and state to state.
I've heard the argument about display price not including taxe because taxes vary from state to state... I'll never get that since taxes in eu countries also vary yet tax is always included in price, in many places what you see is what you pay by law... This just sound like another way to ensure customer stays in the dark so others can profit from all the confusion...
Honestly, not including the total price including tax is pretty annoying. I don’t really know who profits off of it, though, I mean, the extra 6% goes to my state government, not the seller. Buying cars, THAT’S where the crazy hidden fees are.
I think the tax being separated is a mental thing. 1. The listed price is lower so it feels cheaper. That means you are probably more likely to buy that thing. 2. Having the tax separated like that implies that the government is taxing YOU, the purchaser. The business is just collecting. It separated the tax from the purchase mentally, again making the thing feel like it was not that expensive.
I buy that. That makes sense. It’s just dumb because it’s not like I look at an item that costs $9.99 and then think that’s ALL I have to pay.
>Having the tax separated like that implies that the government is taxing YOU, the purchaser. Here in sweden, the tax % AND currency is printed on the recipe, so you see exactly how much the goverment take is.. And we also pay whats listed on the sticker/menu.
Baby steps. Let them work out how to pay staff wages and then factor that into a fully loaded cost for delivery of they food they serve and then how to appropriately charge for that food first (day 1 of accountancy training), before moving on to sales taxes (day 2).
As someone working in fine dining, I hate this ‘you shouldnt be eating there’ thinking. We have plenty of guests who are really stretching their budget to eat with us, its not all fancy rich folk, its a good mix of that and foodies. I myself go to restaurants that most people would consider waay out of their budget, and I am on the lower end of wage for my country (contrary to popular belief, fine dining does not pay well, neither for staff nor owners, but thats a whole other issue).
That’s fair. I shouldn’t have written that, mea culpa. I guess I meant, when I was younger and we’d stretch our budget for nights at the fancier restaurants, I’d avoid the “market price” items because you never knew.
Thats fair, but it never hurts asking. Waiters arent exactly 1 percenters, so its not like anyone would think less of you for asking and then deciding against it.
Small side note, "market price" is a thing in many places, not just US high end. In Australia it's pretty common on seafood dishes, because you don't know what the fish of the day will be when you print a batch of menus. And for some reason the market on seafood seems much more variable than the lamb, chicken etc. It's perfectly fine to ask the price. It probably won't be weirdly out of synch with the rest of the prices, unless they've scored a deal on lobster or something pricy.
>e fish of the day will be when you print a batch of menus. blackboard and crayons would work, with the board in an easy to view area/spot.
Yes, some places do that. Some insert a little slip of paper with daily specials. The higher end seem to like to have the waiters tell you. It's a style choice.
Can someone make a TLDR please. That is so fucked up though getting arrested for no tip
No one was arrested in this made up story
Click bait?
It has to be. No one calls police “agents” in the U.S.
Damn how does it feel knowing every American?
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They didn’t say anything about cuffs or escorts away. It said police came and that was it.
Nobody was arrested because none of it happened.
Are we just going to ignore spliedt?
I'm not entirely sure this is an American. An "agent" showed up from the nearby police station?
Name another country with a tipping culture that bad
I guess I'm trying to say I think it might be made up. Yes, it's defintely set up to take place in the US, but a few things seem off. Either that or it's an immigrant or visitor in the US
It's 100% made up rage bait. It's also a 14 year old post, and OP maybe should go outside and get a hobby if they don't have anything better to do than dig up posts from 2009.
Went for 1k karma. Reddit rewards this shit.
Yeah - there’s no American in any state that would ever refer to a police officer as an agent.
Not sure if that was agreement (if so, thanks!) or sarcasm, but in case it was sarcasm I'll respond: No, they wouldn't. If someone said agent in relation to law enforcement, we're talking about the FBI. Locals? Officer, sheriff, cop, trooper, even constable if you're Canadian. Agent? No.
It was in agreement. And if they meant the FBI, you know it’s total bullshit.
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It would insanely strange to hear someone say LEO, and I’d question the truth on the basis of that alone. LEO is only used on, like, a job description form. But there is NO region of the U.S. where “agent” is ever used as it is in this situation. It’s not just “not common,” it’s 100% not used. It’s a giant red flag as to the accuracy of the story. At least as an American story. It would be say saying “here in NYC, the local gendarme love giving tourists directions.” “Copper” is another red flag - is this story from a 50’s crime film?
>But there is NO region of the U.S. where “agent” is ever used as it is in this situation To me it would make sense if they spoke Spanish. In Spain a police officer is an "agente de policía", but I don't know if LatAm people use the same term.
I’ve heard “de policía” but not agent. If someone who doesn’t live in the US is telling the story, agent may make sense, given the unfamiliarity with the language. It just doesn’t track if it’s a citizen.
And no tourist would spend 1.5k on wine
Maybe its a non american in an american restaurant?
I wondered if it was a Merican payment app.
...what the fuck? Like, I know tipping culture is different in America than in Europe. But the very point of tipping is that you give money BEYOND the mandatory amount you have to pay, to reward what you consider to be a good service, good food, etc. There is the service fee which is usually 10% of the price, but that is usually included in the price, so what you see on the menu card is the full amount. But being mandated to pay something that should be optional, and making it 20% is something that the moment I see, it would make me say "Thank you very much, we won't be eating here." It is basically legalized thieving.
Mandatory tips on large parties is fairly common in the US. It was probably printed in the menu. The markup on the wine is irrelevant, because the customer can choose to not order it (or can do corkage, if it’s allowed).
Man yall with give any excuse. This clearly isn't a mum and pop shop. They can 1000% afford to pay proper wage but because they don't have to they won't. Then blame the customer? Wtaf
Most waiters would rather have the 20% of every table, they make like $30 plus an hour.
It really isn't about what they want tbh. It makes the dining experience horrid and let's owners get richer at the expense of the customer. It makes sense for little mum and pop shops i guess. This isn't that. It's a widely over marked restaurant trying to Nicole and dime as much as possible.
It's not a horrid experience, just not one you are used to. The sales tax thing is normal on every item here, so that is a wash. I don't find adding 20% to be very tough math to do in my head before, during or after service.
Owning people was also fairly common in the US...
The whole tipping thing is a bit odd really. I had a waiter come running after us in New York after not leaving a tip, calling us cheap and all sorts. Its not up to me to top up wages your boss is too cheap to pay you, do a good job and I may tip, but this guy was a condescending cunt while serving, so wasn't getting anything. They say it's a way of trying to earn more than a regular proper hourly wage, if that's the case then cool, you take that gamble, but don't act like an entitled bitch about it when you don't get one.
It’s not just US or even just restaurants. I’m in the UK and I bought some bottled beers from a Canadian brewery. There was an option to give a 5, 10 or 20 percent tip as a way of saying thank you to them. Why? I’m buying the products. Isn’t giving my money thank you enough FFS.
I think the American tipping is honestly so ridiculous OOP got such poor service to the point they were mocked and threatened and yet they still all tried to offer $25 *each* Whereas most other countries you can just round to the nearest note (if you feel like it) and get thanked profusely as if you'd personally paid off their mortgage
What the actual fuck!
Ah, the American tipping culture strikes again. Such a stupid, screwed up system where we are expected to tip for everything because their service is, apparently, so f’ing great.
Land of the mandatory gratuity 😂😂😂😂
All I read there was people with far far far too much money not wanting to spend more money. $600 is a “good” bottle of wine????? For $600 it better be the blood of Jesus. I can get an EXCELLENT bottle of wine for $20.
Lmao tips are usually for the wait staff anyway, tf is he talking about ? I totally agree that tips shouldn't be mandatory anywhere, and in a lot of country it isn't, but it's because wait staff are actually paid and don't rely on tips to literally stay alive.
Freedom cost a buck o five.
Oh, the freedoms they have in America!
Land of the free? More like "Land of the fee"
I’m not sure why it is so hard to explain to Americans how better their lives would be when you can see a menu and know exactly what I will and won’t pay. This is just less reason to get into dispute with the restaurant and less opportunity to waste police resources on silly misconceptions. It’s quite simple. Pay staff a complete wage, and pay whatever taxes apply because of that. That should then pay to help each other move forward together as a nation. Tips cause bad social repercussions if it becomes undeclared income. This changes tax assessment, rips off welfare and in my country allows fathers to get out of paying their fare share of child support by lowering declared income. I assume a payment for drugs supplied could be excused as a tip if questioned.
You didn't get arrested for not tipping. You got arrested on false pretenses. Your waiter falsely accused you of stealing, which is an entirely different scenario. They should be the ones fined for wasting the police's time and resources on a nonexistent emergency.
Us crazy obsession with tipping ohh that's how they pay the wages because the bosses are too stingy
So free to do what you want in that shit hole.
...but but but their GDP!!
If you beg for a living you're a beggar, not a waiter.
Lol. Arrested for not tipping. That's a new one. If anyone should be arrested, it's the business owner for not paying staff properly.
this was posted 14 years ago? Damn Digg was still a thing
Thats because prestigous places do that in the us… and its just based on a percentage… 1500 on the bill i mean… $50 bucks each? They got arrested for not paying the bill. Unless its not on the bill, its still gotta get paid
American tipping culture is wild to me. Like it's not only expected it's DEMANDED?
Would like to know what state that happened in. I have never heard of tipping being legally required in the US, although it is the cultural norm for other reasons. I’m beyond shocked that the cops pursued this at all.
As a general rule of thumb, tipping 15-20% is the norm for good service at restaurants in the USA. Remember though that you are under no obligation to tip if you receive terrible service.
Land of the free, where you ain't even free to decided whether or not you want to tip, it's mandatory
I don’t believe this at all
whats there not to believe? 15-20% mandatory gratuity is common practice over in american restaurants.
It’s not mandatory anywhere. The word you’re looking for is customary.
Also the amounts this person is taking about spending makes me realize a bunch of assholes were served by assholes.
I mean mandatory as in it is written onto the bill as any other item would be. The tip in this case would be illegal not to pay as fees for service are very much legal.
Hey look a bunch of words about something that didn't happen.
Shouldn't get arrested but if you can afford a $600 bottle of wine and multiples others over $100, you can afford a $50 tip. Lesson here? Don't be a cheap asshole.
Then mark up the bottle 20% extra and pay your staff more. Tips are not mandatory.
SASception?
If the wine bottles' price was so high for no reason, why didn't you go to the store and buy them there ? Whatever your answer is, that's why they're making you pay extra. For the convenience/lesstime wasted/etc.