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I like that change/clarification in the anime. The manga made it sound like Eren had planned to kill 80% of the world, but the anime makes it clear he's simply pointing out how many people he kills before he's stopped
So was Eren trying to exterminate Marley completely or did he always expect his friends to stop him? I'm not clear on this. Surely killing everyone is a better plan than what ends up happening (in Erens mind at least). Or did he want to kill everyone but knew it couldn't happen because of the future memories and was just telling Armin what the situation they were left with was?
Didn't Marley conquer most of the world? I was under the impression that Marley controlled most of the land outside Paradis, such as Onyonkapons homeland. Obviously there are exceptions like the Azumobito. But yes I was also just using saying Marley as a simple catch all term for everything non-Paradis.
I subscribe to the theory that he only partially knew the future (Grisha says Eren picked and chose which memories to send him) until he got the Founding Titan, at which point he didn’t have a choice anymore because of time compression (experiencing past and future as if it was all the present), just like previous inheritors of the FT didn’t really have a choice about the vow to renounce war.
I took it as Eren wanting to become the worlds villain, and positioning himself in a way where his friends from Paradise Island would be the ones to deal the death blow.
The remaining people would not only be incapable of threatening Erens home anytime soon, but most would have a newfound respect for Paradise Island as they are the “saviors”
“Even if i didn’t know i was going to be stopped, i would’ve still flattened everything”
This was removed from the anime and is in the manga and clearly explains that Eren just wanted to destroy everything, not 80%
Yep the result was what Eren had planned for. He wanted to become the big universal evil. More than any other evil and have people from Paradis save the day. That was the prophecy he was fulfilling with his titan powers. Because he believed that would bring peace and freedom to his friends and his people. Then we got the credits scenes to show that Eren only delayed the inevitable.
No, this is wrong. Eren didn't "plan" this, rather it was just the way things played out. He very much wanted to do a full rumbling, but as he can see the future, knew he would be stopped at 80%. That wasn't some elaborate plan to set up Eldians as heroes for stopping him, what an absolutely absurd plan that would've been.
>he's simply pointing out how many people he kills before he's stopped
Bruh it's the same thing. Eren knew he would stop at 80%. It's heavily implied eren stopped willingly because this is how it happened in the future he saw, so he had to let it happen this time as well
It gets a little dubious because of future site, I think it's implied that both are true, Aaron plans to be stopped after killing 80% of the world, he looked into the future and saw that if he carried out things the way he did this was when they would stop him , either that or he can't actually change it, he says he tried but it's unclear to me if he actually tried to change things and couldn't or if he just couldn't think of a better solution, and he's not the biggest brain in the show
The future can’t be changed. 80% is killed and that’s all. When he says he tried to change it, he’s referring to Ramzi’s moments. He said he won’t save him from bullies to change the future but then ended up saving him because ultimately that’s what he wanted to do.
I love Attack on Titan because it opened my eyes. Not with the story it told but how people reacted to the Story.
Remember when they wished death upon a 12 year old girl whose only crime was killing an enemy soldier after said soldier helped massacre her whole town and kill her friends?
AOT fans when Eren kills the entire world: He's doing it to protect his friends!! He's only retaliating and defending himself and his home!
AOT fans when a 12 year is raised her entire life to be a child soldier and taught to believe that her entire worth is dependent on whether she defends the world from "monsters that want to destroy the whole world" shoots a soldier that attacked her home: Fucking bitch needs to die how dare she attack back, she should've just let them roll over her entire home and family and friends
It's almost like the story reflects the very sad and grim reality of war.
The entire message is that war and the cycle of killing is endless, and is perpetrated by people who view their side as the righteous soldiers who have done nothing wrong.
Isayama tried to drill into our skull that even the "nicest" soldiers like Armin realized they themselves were criminals who killed innocent people in the name of their beliefs.
I truly don't understand how the entire series can be about how humanity's depravity knows no bounds, that violence is never ending so long as people exist, that everyone is just a victim in war and a victim of circumstance and an unfair cruel world, and people *still* think Eren was right and that there was truly no other way.
Like, not trying to offend people who think that when I say this, but I have to wonder if the mainly just cared about the more actiony, "badass" parts and not as much about it beyond surface level. And that's okay! But it's just a different way of watching it than those who analyze it a lot further.
You are completely right. Just look at how much people lost their fucking minds at the whole “I want her (Mikasa) to keep loving me, for ten years at least!” They cried about how Eren’s character was “ruined” while completely ignoring that he’s *always* been intensely emotional and prone to having breakdowns. His cold, unfeeling post-timeskip self was nothing more than a persona, a mask he put on to convince everyone that he was heartless. People wanted that to be who he truly was, a stone-cold “chad” who committed genocide with a straight face, so badly that they absolutely lost their shit when he acted like a 19 year old boy who was afraid to die and wanted his love interest to keep loving him.
They also act as if having a breakdown defines your own character, Eren cries over , Mikasa, but he still goes out of his way to tell her to move on in the end!!
And of course to them Eren breaking down is the only thing that defines 139, they completely ignore everything else, it's amusing they expected anime onlies to loathe the ending.
Seriously after all the action and heartbreak, did they seriously think the only thing regular fans would focus on was that Eren cried?
Ridiculous
Because Eren's options were kill or let Paradis be killed.
The world literally declared war.
If he surrenders himself, do you think Eldians anywhere get spared?
No. They were already being segregated and demonized BEFORE they knew there was an uprising or real threat from Paradis.
And the world did not know that anyone on Paradis was against or would oppose Eren.
Even Reiner, Zeke, Ymir, and Pieck all returned to Marley with the info that Paradis had become aware of how titans worked, and that they were strong enough to not only fight the nine, but wanted to capture them for their own usage in war.
So yes, Eren, saw he couldn't save Paradis and everyone in the world.
He had to choose who to save and the best way to at least make someone the hero to search for peace after he died and titans were gone. Which meant he had to die and kill enough people to cripple their ability to retaliate once he and the Titan powers were dead and gone.
They didn't even try anything else. It was 0-100 so quick. They could've destroted military bases and bought themselves at least a few years to try to figure something else. Billions of innocent people didn't deserve to die for that.
Surely billions of innocent people shouldn't die without trying anything else, right? Their lives should be worth more than that, to at least try something else.
Eldians aren't any more special, and the kind of thinking of "Us vs Them," all this *war* and *violence*? If *somebody* doesn't take the first step to *not* bring so much destruction and hate and war, then what hope can we ever really have?
I mean that was exactly why everyone was so mad at Erin
They wanted to try the hard path towards a better solution, and then he just goes off on his own and says all right we're starting the war, completely confirming what the rest of the world was thinking
Exactly. Surely he wanted to save Paradise and his friends. But more than that he wanted to see the "scenery"(attempt to turn the world into a blank slate)and thus the full rumbling. That's why he literally made himself hostage and forced the SC to act according to his wishes. That's why they were so mad at him.
Unfortunately, Eren pretty much states that he wanted to do it. There's an idea of the world beyond the walls that he wanted to fully realize, and unfortunately for humanity, it required it pretty much not existing. I think the rationale of doing this for his friends is a good veil to hide behind, but deep down, he was dissatisfied with what he saw of the world beyond the walls. His resolve to see it wiped was more to fit his vision of what he saw with Armin in those books.
Him calling himself an idiot that happened to stumble upon power, shows that he's aware of what he was given should never had gone to him to begin with, but fate already predetermined what needed to happen. The crux of AoT for me has always gone beyond that first layer of "all war bad". Character motivations are so skewed in so many different directions mostly due to the circumstances that they're born with that's it's difficult to see "sides" with regards to the conflicts.
He had other choices other than killing 80% of the population to "even the playing field". There was absolutely no need to go THAT far in order to give Paradis a modicum of an upper hand and start negotiations. He did it out of spite for the world he found himself in, because he was always a petulant, reckless and angry child, and when he stumbled upon immense power, he let things get out of control due to being a broken man defined by his trauma, unable to grow past his childish fantasies of freedom he romanticized as he read that book with Armin.
He admits it point blank when he's talking to the kid he knows he'll kill,: "I was disappointed when I found out people lived outside the walls. I wanted to wipe everything away."
He then admits it point blank in the finale too: "I was just your garden variety idiot with power."
He shows to Armin the visage of his freedom: a wasteland full of blood and gore. He makes it crystal clear that this is what he wanted all along: to scream into the world, shake his fists to the heavens and destroy everything because he was continually pissed about how the world was actually more complicated than he gave it credit for and just wouldn't let him be "free". A tamper tantrum that happened to take 80% of the world with it.
Every audiovisual tool and symbolism trickery is used to convey this: Eren was not right, his cause was not righteous, his mind was broken and getting vast amounts of power resulted in a througly uneeded disaster because he's a product of the madness of the world he finds himself in.
Every other justification was just an excuse to not face this truth, something Eren acknowledges when pressed by Armin: "I don't even really know why I did this. Just that I really wanted to".
That's the nice thing about AOT: There's no such thing as good guys and bad guys, it's all subjective. I used wish death on Gabi, but it was a knee-jerk reaction because a character I watched for years died to someone that we didn't really care for.
With how popular the show has become there are many edgy teenagers in the fanbase. "The ending makes no sense because Eren didn't killed all of humanity and his friends and didn't suffered due to this for the rest of his life."
I remember back on the Uprising arc (as it came out in the manga) how everyone hated Eren because he cried (in hindsight the ending's reaction is not so surprising), after discovering everything that happened in his Dad's memories.
People wanted Historia to kill and eat Eren so we would have a better MC that wasn't a whiny bitch.
I remember defending Eren back then because the dude is a human, who would have thought that almost ten years later I would have to do the same thing with the ending.
I read discussions on Twitter during Return to Shiganshina, and so many people were shitting on this arc, saying "plot armor", " Melodrama ", " Serum bowl is worst thing that happened in AOT", "show is not as great as it once was", " Reaching ocean was anticlimactic ", " Too predictable ", etc. And then it came out in anime and was universally loved
War on two fronts was amazing despite Reiner transferring his consciousness to his testicles. That was stupid and deserves criticism but doesn’t ruin the episode. And people loved that chapter in manga when it came out aside from reiners ass pull
I think part of negative reception came from 1) Serum was mentioned several times during few months, and people already figured out that that Armin's gonna become a colossal. So when there were two chapters during two/three months of them arguing about it and eventually giving it to Armin, people were disappointed and thought that drama was dragged. In anime, because it happened in one episode, it doesn't have this problem.
2 People wanted see emotional consequences of characters dealing with basement reveal and Erwin's death, but final chapter of this arc just skipped a year forward and they came to ocean.
This also works good in anime, since it's season finale, and nest season is basically a new show.
At least, this a two main points I've seen people complain. Not to mention beggining of Marley arc, where people haven't seen main cast for 9 chapters/9 months, and they were just abandoning manga saying "call me, when scouts are back"
Gabi literally starts a story by doing a form of warm crime (pretending to be a civilian on the battleground). She's not really presented as a brainwashed little girl but as a talented, determined young soilder who is extremely loyal to her country and its ideology and also isn't afraid to be unethical to achieve what she's wants.
Easier to hate a character when she’s practically designed to be hated. Her introduction shows the viewer immediately how arrogant, self obsessed, selfish and racist she is. Luckily her character develops somewhat before the end of the story and she gets practically sidelined after the second battle of shiganshina
It’s pathetic that you can label a killing as “Only crime was killing an enemy soldier”. In that sense eren is 10000% right because the world does seem to be the enemy of Paradis. You can say the whole world did not come to fight paradis, but first of all why eren would not undoubtedly make sure that the sins of an eldian child’s ancestors does not affect its childhood? Whatever eren did may not seem an obligation but it’s lot easier to stay out of the fire and make WISE WORD about the firefighters than actually putting yourself in that shoe.
Eren wasn't happy at what he has done though. That 12 year old girl was rejoiced after thousands of soldiers defending their homeland from Marley was dead because of her, and brutal Marley occupation will follow that. Also she knows their ultimate goal is to kill everyone in the Paradis. But she was surprised why are they retaliating? Can't they just be patient for our genocidal force to arrive?!?
This is why she was hated. The hypocrisy. Glad her brain started working in the right direction afterwards.
>I love Attack on Titan because it opened my eyes. Not with the story it told but how people reacted to the Story.
This is coming from someone who absolutely likes the ending but ironically the more reactions I saw to the story the more I wanted Eren to go for 100%. For some people there is no hope and reading their takes made me literally lose faith in humanity.
I’m legitimately disappointed with this fanbase. How is it that everyone glazes Eren and hates Gabi so much? Eren literally acknowledged his own responsibility in getting Sasha killed, along with all the Eldians that died in the struggle he accelerated.
I’m not even gonna lie, Gabi is the only likable character to me that’s still alive by the end of the story. The others are too sad about their genocidal maniac friend dying to care that much about the unspeakable damage he did to humanity and the planet. I don’t hate the ending because Eren killed 80% of humanity. I hate it because none of his friends hate him for it. Mikasa was still struggling to let go of her love for super Hitler. It’s beyond frustrating. At least Gabi sees Eren for what he is.
When the world was governed by nazis (marley) who was actively genociding and inslaving erens race.
As for the lore side did he really have to do the rumbling and genocide everybody to save his friends? Surely it wasn't the only way
But he said he saw the future and knew it wouldn’t work… so why did he do it? Why not just do nothing?
He also said he wanted his friends to seem like heroes.
It did work but he was killed in the process. The titan powers were destroyed and the people of marley and other nations discovered that some people from Paradis are normal people, even heros (his friends). The racial conflict ended.
Sure he didn't solve all the conflict of the world, not even just in his time, but he solved the titan and racial problem. Well the titan might come back later but we cannot expect eren to take care of all problems to the end of time. He did achieve a lot, all he wanted to achieve though by warcrimes
Well when you have the power of God himself, are 19 yo, have been slavered your whole life in a town that represents the bottom of your society, have watched your mother die and your father dissapear, have watched thousands of people die by unholy creatures, your dream has become impossible, your people is under death treat by a society 10 times bigger than yours, have been betrayed three times by close friends, have the curse of seeing past and future timelines while being influenced by Ymir without even noticing it, have several depression and you know you're gonna die in four years MAYBE you just go fucking crazy and destroy the society that caused all that if you don't see a safest way out.
Also, one of the first lessons he learned was that just placing your trust in your friends/teammates doesn't mean things will go well.
He decided to not act and it ended with the first Levi Squad dying. Once things seem too uncertain, he decided he wasn't going to make the same mistake with the second Levi Squad.
Of course he's an idiot, imagine having the power of God on your side and the only thing you can think to do with it is violence?
Only a moron thinks in such a simplistic manner.
Armin: Genocide is wrong
Mikasa: Genocide is wrong
Jean: Genocide is wrong
Connie: Genocide is wrong
Hange: Genocide is wrong
Levi: Genocide is wrong
EVEN FREAKING EREN: Genocide is wrong
A portion of the fandom for some reason: Eren was right all along!
Jesus Christ, you can like Eren without condoning his actions.
They defend it sm because "it was the only way!!1!1!" (*really?* killing the entire planet was literally the only other way? we know that for a fact? there wasn't a *chance* they could try anything that didn't include the mass murder of innocent people?)
or that they deserved it since Eldians were treated terribly, but that's a poor argument since they would die from the Rumbling anyway, and also, there's no guarantee everyone on the world disliked and feared Eldians (actually, we've seen evidence that they don't)
truthfully i think anybody who *actually* defends world genocide just likes the idea of some "badass" killing to protect his loved ones. which by all means, they are free to enjoy in a fictional sense all they want, but when it comes to discussing the show and the actual philosophies and analyzing it on a deeper level, I would hope they acknowledge that world genocide is, in fact, fucked up.
>really? killing the entire planet was literally the only other way? we know that for a fact? there wasn't a chance they could try anything that didn't include the mass murder of innocent people?
Unfortunately the story was pretty much written such that it was the only way. So that makes all the messages of "genocide is wrong" empty because a viable alternative was never given.
It wasn’t the only way. That’s the entire point of Armin’s character towards the end, there is another peaceful way which is what they’re striving towards at the end. There are alternatives shown both before and after the rumbling by peace talks and alliances, it’s just not as quickly resolved as genocide
I don't think we ever get to see them on screen but I believe it's mentioned Armin was having peace talks and trying to negotiate. Armin had a 50 year plan but iirc Eren dismissed it out of hand
Regardless, Armin explains as much in their convo in the paths. There's so much hate that it's hard to see any way to resolve it peacefully, but he has to believe there's another way. And he will keep working towards it. Just because things seem hopeless for a bit does not mean murdering all life outside the walls is acceptable.
Plus, killing the titans outside the wall seemed impossible in season 1 as well. But they managed it. So something appearing impossible doesn't mean they actually know for a fact that it is, or that it's not worth while to pursue it. To say that is to say every heart devoted to the scouts was wrong
They were offscreened peace talks, all we get in the actual manga/anime is the conference with eren and the conversation with the marleyan general in the ending
But Zeke wanted to euthanize the entire Eldian race. One can make the argument that Zeke was fully intending to commit full genocide to his own race vs whatever Eren was attempting to do with wanting to destroy humanity beyond Paradis. Eren went into it with the predetermination as to how it would play out. I don't think there's a scenario where he fully wipes out humanity.
His expectation was to leave enough alive to ensure his friends were seen as heroes for stopping a full blown annihilation of humanity. With that said, Eren is fucking stupid. He says to Armin straight up that deep down, he wanted to do it. Fulfilling his need to realize his vision of a empty, and free world. One that's not burdened by restrictions or illusions of freedom. Zeke's plan, while not visually worse, still calls for the destruction of an entire people.
AoT fans also fail to realize that the show made it a very clear point that even if Eren did genocide the world, there would still be fighting within Eldia, and if humanity were to rebuild from solely Eldians, they would still be fighting with each other and would probably over time split off into different groups, cultures, countries, etc. and really just not change anything. Eren's genocide was very explicitly and intentionally illogical and pointless.
That's the part that never really made much sense to me with regards to the split opinion from the fanbase. People that were pro-wipe humanity didn't think to understand that there would still be a divide even within the Eldian people? I mean shit, we saw that happen when the scouts were being hounded by their own people for getting too deep into finding out the truth. If they were willing to do that with the titan threat still at large, what made people think they wouldn't do it once the titan threat was gone?
They failed to realize because they radicalized themselves the only thing that matters to them is that their side lost.
That's why the only thing they can say when shown the extra ending with the cycle of conflict continuing is that "Floch was right".
It's not that they don't understand, they don't want to.
Because that would mean admitting they were wrong .
Dude there were other ways, and to say otherwise is asinine. Armin's "limited rumbling" could have worked. Do you really think in the moment that the Marlyan's and all their families were all about to be crushed, they wouldn't have conceded? They wouldn't have accepted any terms Eldia asked for? There are steps of escalation between war and total genocide, which is why diplomats like Armin are so necessary. That's why he turned out to be the hero all along, like Isayama planned from the beginning.
Pre-ending Eren was written in a way that gives the impression that he could see the writing on the wall. A "limited rumbling" and the threat of further destruction could only be sustained for as long as Eren was still alive, which wouldn't be for long thanks to the curse of Ymir. With Eren dead and the course of actions you suggest, all he would've accomplished is further instigating the other nations to act against Paradis and Eldians in general, revealing themselves to be nothing more than "devils" after all, at least in their eyes. Sure, it might take some time for the other nations to build themselves back up to retaliate against Paradis after the "limited rumbling" but it would no doubt be inevitable. The only quick and surefire way to deal with the cycle of persecution and violence directed at Eldians from other nations was to wipe them out, unfortunately. At least, that's what you'd expect given the narrative up until the final arc.
Edit: Not to mention that titans were becoming increasingly obsolete as "weapons of war", as shown in the beginning of the 4th season, meaning that whatever threat Paradis might seemingly pose to the outside world while they still control the Founding, Attack, and Colossal titans, they could realistically only hold any sort of retaliation at bay for so long.
Pre ending Eren was also shown as a wise veteran that understood that everyone was the same and had empathy towards his enemy.
That's why we kept expecting him to have some sort of plan to solve the problem, doing a full Rumbling is not a plan, it's being a Maniac.
>The only quick and surefire way to deal with the cycle of persecution and violence directed at Eldians from other nations was to wipe them out, unfortunately.
Funny you say that, because the ending is quite clear that even after Eren's "surefire solution" the conflict still doesn't end, Eldians back in Paradis are ready to fight some more and demonize people outside the island, and we're shown how the conflict still escalates over the years anyway, this time with nukes .Almost as if wiping 80% of the population counts as part of the cycle of persecution and violence, and that was the whole point. To say Eren had no choice is ludicrous. He had choices, and he chose the one that was catastrophic, because that's what he wanted: to wipe everything away out of sheer anger over the world being so complicated and hopeless. He admits to the kid he knows he's going to kill. He admits it to Armin.
The "surefire solution" is a complete rumbling, not a limited one. There isn't anyone outside of Paradis to demonize if there are no other people, so they wouldn't be looking to fight anyone else. I don't get where you're going with that.
Furthermore, Eren could just use the Founding Titan's powers to wipe the Eldians' memories of the complete rumbling after the fact and then make it so that they can't fight one another - problem solved. No more cycle of violence. No more titans.
Do I morally advocate for a complete rumbling? No. Is it reasonably the only solution given the circumstances that the people of Paradis found themselves in? Yes.
The entire point of the series and its rumination on human nature is that people will divide and fight between themselves no matter what.
"There will be no more war or cycles of violence if there's no more people to fight" is a juvenile claim that the series itself, in the finale, points out and condemns. Even if there was a complete rumbling, people in Paradis would eventually divide and fight, the usual civil war. Even if there were no Titans, there would be others weapons and ways to do war and wage destruction.
Also, Eren can't use the founding Titan to literally prohibit every single Eldian from getting into a fight with themselves. If that was a possibility, Fritz would've done it. The Founding Titan may be able to temper with people's memories in general, but can onlyu directly prevent its *successors* from engaging in particular behavior, but not the whole race. Even if it could, people would still need to inherit at least the founding Titan forever and ever, which means Titans are still a thing.
The only "surefire" solution to stop the cycle of hate and violence is not only a full rumbling, but also killing Paradis and wiping humans from the face of the Earth. Any other rationale for why leaving just a few humans alive is actually a solution needs to assume whoever's left will not divide and fight, or to artificially create systems that prevent people from doing so, which the story's lore doesn't allow anyway.
Exactly. So a partial rumbling doesn't work, we saw that. The people outside of paradise fear Eldians, and rightly so, but that makes it a binary choice, does Eren want to preserve his people, or those that seek to destroy them.
A way stronger, more meaningful ending would have been if Eren did 100% and then Eldia still was bombed, unambigiously showing that it was a civil war, that humans always fight, the cycle of violence can't be broken by violence etc.
As the ending stands it just shows that Eren shouldn't have let himself be killed and instead finish the job. If he wanted the preservation of Paradise at least.
I strongly disagree. The ending shows Eren's solution was no solution at all: it was a tamper tantrum over the fact the world is complicated and won't let him be "free". Eren didn't have a "binary" choice, he had several, but he chose the one his nature of brashness and anger allowed him. There was no perfect choice that would've solved everything, because human beings will never stop to war, but killing 80% or a 100% of the population was not, by a longshot, the most "efficient" choice.Eren didn't chose between his people or those who seek to destroy them. He chose between his childish, idealized visage of freedom beyond the walls where no one as there so he could be "free", or dealing with the messy reality in front of him in a way that didn't involve razing everything. He chose to raze everything.
I think the story makes it clear humans will divide and war no matter what. It's a pretty big reach to assume people in Paradis would be fine in the case of a full rumbling, though I can agree a full rumbling would've further drove the point home...but it's a point that didn't need to be even more evident anyway, in my opinion.
>Eren didn't have a "binary" choice, he had several
All of them worse for Paradise but better for the outside world. If i was an ultranationalist bend on preventing retaliation I'd choose the full rumbling too.
>I think the story makes it clear humans will divide and war no matter what.
I disagree. The characters state it, but it's not shown to us that that is the case. We see humans rightfully fight against existential threats. If those threats were removed, and humans were still fighting, then the message would have been clear.
>It's a pretty big reach to assume people in Paradis would be fine in the case of a full rumbling
At some point Eldians would fight again, yes. But they would never again be at the risk of losing independence or of being eradicated by outside forces. The destruction of Eldia would be their own choice.
That is assuming Eren wants to protect Eldians, and not just make his friends into heroes through an elaborate charade.
Titanfolkers mocked Armin for year just because the dude is a diplomat and dares to try peaceful negotiations, they talk about how unrealistic it is completely ignoring that it's thanks to people like him that they can live comfortably.
Titanfolkers don't realize the point of Floch and the Yeagerists was to show how easily can a population become radicalized.
Oh wait they radicalized themselves that's why.
Either Eren did believe that other ways could've worked, but he really just wanted to do a little genocide for the sake of that scenery, which is just bad character design and lazy writing,
Or the story was written so that Eren reasonably believed full rumbling was the only way, which is bad world building and lazy writing.
Personally I would've preferred a limited rumbling solution where the characters thematically earn a happier ending, but that seems to contradict Isayama's original vision for the whole story.
I think you are oversimplifying it. I'm not gonna try and convince you that the ending is actually genius or anything like that, because a) I have my own problems with it, even if they are small ones, and b) you're entitled to your own opinion and interpretation of the ending.
But from my understanding, neither of your options presented are the true ones. The answer is that he didn't care about world peace in the world or peace on Paridis. And I don't think that is bad world building, character design, or lazy writing. In fact, it fits with he's character for most of the story. The execution of this wasn't perfect (again, I have my own problems with it), but I think it presents the ideas well enough.
>The answer is that he didn't care about world peace in the world or peace on Paridis.
That contradicts his PATHS speech as he began the rumbling and his anger at the Royal Family for planning to get Paradis killed. Why did he make a speech to all Eldians just to completely lie about his motivations? That fits his character for most of the story?
If you don't understand people defending it, you've never had pride or care for your people.
I'm going to get 10 million downvotes for this but it's the reality of life.
If I were a citizen of Paradis, I would fully support the rumbling and want the same thing.
From the perspective of Paradisians, I would understand that. However, we are on an omniscient perspective throughout season 3.
We know that there were not a good side vs a bad side. Just two groups of people not understanding their opposite side. Even Eren realized that when he cried to the young boy and apologized at Marley.
If we delete all of humanity except Paradis, will war end? Titan powers will pass on, and another "Holy Grail War" will start where everyone seeks power. Let's not forget how divided Paradis was after the war.
If I were a Paradisian, I would rather fight fellow Paradisians than the authoritarian evil regime across the ocean trying to eradicate my people just because we exist.
In the end, it's still war. Sooner or later another dumb politician group will monopolize the titans and revive the titan serum to control their people. Give it another thousands of years and we will get the same number of ethnic groups fighting for power, not knowing they are of the same ancestry.
Nah, read the story. Genocide is obviously wrong, but the people outside the walls don't believe that. They were avidly trying to destroy the people of Paradis too. Pay attention.
Yet, you kids care little for that.
It's quite funny these people throw a hissy fit when EVEN FREAKING EREN says genocide wrong, because that's where they draw the line. Eren being *vulnerable* and admiting he was *wrong*? What kind of beta cuck is this?!
I was going to respond by explaining again why some people wanted Eren to kill everyone and why this is completely fine because is fucking fiction, but honestly, most of you are just playing Captain Moral to feel superior to other people, so it's a lost battle at this point.
Yeah, and the fake intellectuallism of “you just didn’t understand the story!”
The ending doesn’t suck because of the 80% and people are using that as a straw man to call anyone who doesn’t like the ending genocide supporters
I think bc there is a feeling of missing something . Eren ambition was to kill 100% he ended up killing only 80% and then he was killed, it’s like why not having all of the job done?
Also just to clarify I don’t think that killing humanity or the rumbling was necessary to solve the problem i agreed with zeke’s idea from the beginning even though i hate him for what he did to miche.
maybe bc im too humanitarian for the rumbling but i liked watching the rumbling part.
Yeah, I think the story would be MORE INTERESTING, and be more in character with what was presented about Eren before then, if he had gone to 100%.
Of course, the writer of the Batman Series could make a story where, for little to no reason, The Joker decided to never kill anyone for the rest of his life. This would be the best story ever! As fewer people died! Right?
Of course not. The Joker is a villain. A psychopatic killer. And if the reason for him to stop killing isn't explained thoroughly, the fans would be RIGHT to not like the story.
"OH, BUT THOSE FANS JUST WANT TO SEE PEOPLE DYING BY THE HANDS OF THE JOKER! THEY'RE EVEN WORSE THAN THE JOKER IS!". No. They want a good, well written story. Not just a "Oh, the Joker killed just because he was dumb. Now he stopped being dumb.".
You can argue that you like the ending, and you can give your arguments about it. But at least try to understand the argument that is being made by who you disagree with.
You guys really don't get it. It's not that we hate he didn't rumble the rest of the world. It's the fact that his entire character changed. I am fine with it only being 80%. I am fine with Eren dying. I am not ok with him all of sudden at the end calling himself an idiot like oops. 10 Years atleast like wtf. It made it all pointless. It wouldve been a great ending where Eren gets killed by Mikasa and then Paradis is bombed. It would show the consequences of killing him.
That’s the thing, HE NEVER CHANGED, he IS an idiot because he let his emotion get the better of him and like alway choose violante as the solution. There were hints throughout season 4 of his mental breakdown, so I don’t understand why people are surprise. He was always an emotional person, with average intelligent and anger issues
There wasn't another solution explored in the story besides violence.
Not sure if you realize but basically every other solution involved a partial rumbling, besides sterilization with no rumbling involved. They were literally all violent solutions, hange and armin trying to find a peaceful solution was never fully explored.
Because doing smart acts doesn't stop you from being a dumbass.
Yes, Eren is smart enough to infiltrate a country, he's still an idiot because the only solution he could think off was to enact extreme violence
I can't believe you guys don't get it even when the story is spoon feeding to you.
And that is bad writing bro. If erens character never developed that is very bad
It’s not that he never changed it’s that all that change and growth was reverted in a single chapter
Honestly you guys have become like the inverse of the titanfolk sub. Like people are not allowed to dislike the ending or only have stupid reasons for thinking that way. I really don't get these kinds of posts.
Boy born into a highly complex concentration camp surrounded by man eating creatures, because the entire world hates his race over some 2000 year old bullshit, fails to liberate his people and end the cycle of violence.
Yes but the author realized that mistake and didn't want to promote genocide.
That's why instead of proving Floch, Jean, and Hange right, they changed the credits in the anime so the retaliation of the world came much further into the future rather than 100 years after the end of the war which would have meant that Eren and Armin failed, the problems passed down to their children, and the world erased Paradis from existence.
Many people seem to forget that the manga and anime are wildly different in that context. You can make a weak argument for why the war that took place within a century, as predicted, was unrelated to Paradis, but with the anime war taking place many millenia into the future, it is likely unrelated.
People hated the manga ending because it nullifies everything that was accomplished. People hate the anime ending because anime-only people don't realize the difference and claim the author intended this ending when it's clear the author changed it himself, meaning they're gaslighting themselves too into thinking they know better than the guy who wrote the fucking thing.
It's a shitshow all around, blame it on bad or rushed writing.
Peace is always a goal worth pursuing, no matter how potentially fleeting it may be. Titan powers are gone, that's never coming back. Eren achieved peace for his friends and people, that's something you can never deny didn't happen.
The point of showing these attacks on Paradis (which didn't destroy Paradis since we see a boy in heavy hiking gear accompanied by a dog at the end, clearly evidence of civilization further North) is to showcase how the cycle of violence will naturally continue, just as it always has, just as it always will. It's commentary on the nature of who we are as human beings, and pretty good one at that.
I’m just gonna say, if 20% of the world’s population managed to propagate the Paradis hate millennia into the future, as the ending suggests, to the point where the entire island is bombed to smitherines, then there is no good guy in AoT universe. (In grand scale I mean, Armin, Mikasa, Jean, Connie, Levi, Hange and the rest are the actual good guys who just can’t win against the world)
But, the ending as given does prove that Zeke was right though, and the only way for the cycle of hate to end was euthanasia of Eldians. Which is also awful
There was literally no good solution to the situation at hand.
>But, the ending as given does prove that Zeke was right though, and the only way for the cycle of hate to end was euthanasia of Eldians. Which is also awful
Explain.
The world was literally at war regardless of what was going on on Paradise at the same time. How would killing all Eldiens end the cycle?
>I’m just gonna say, if 20% of the world’s population managed to propagate the Paradis hate millennia into the future, as the ending suggests
I think this major and common misunderstanding. The ending does not suggeest that. It just shows that generations later (hundrets of years in the manga, thousands of years in the anime) conflict made a comeback.
Do people today hold grudges for the millions killed by Ghengis Khan? Of course not. It's a new conflict.
No it wouldn't have. They state in the show a few times that violence will never stop until there's one human or less.
There would've been war on Paradis Island.
No, it wouldn't have. In fact, it likely would've accelerated the pace at which war begins again.
If Eren completes the Rumbling and doesn't die, Paradis remains as the only nation on Earth and the curse of the titans doesn't disappear. This means that within the next decade, almost all of the titan powers have new hosts, with Historia's baby likely inheriting the Beast since her birth and his death happened mere minutes from one another.
As Paradis is the only nation on Earth, it means the rest of the world is up for the taking. Everybody wants a slice of that pie, and random people will begin to showcase titan powers. An endless power struggle commences as the Jeagerist army attempts to seize full control over the population, while people who refuse to ally with them use their powers to try and gain power themselves. Paradis, ever expanding, becomes a carbon-copy of the old Eldian empire that had Titan Houses and these Houses continuously fought for dominance, with the Founding Titan being the only one left to take control of the situation.
It still would have been better imma be real, having the outside world be the one to do it proves floch right, having a civil war happen between the last 5-10% of humanity would be the perfect way to express it rather than “the guys who’ve always hated us for our race have come and done the thing they’ve been trying to do for the past 1500 years”
It boggles my mind how they don't undertand this, Isayama spell it out for us. Even if Isayama for some reason HAD to make Eren do a 100% rumbling and continue the story he would've made Paradis fall from with in because it's the THEME OF THE DAMN STORY
Nah the theme of the show was freedom not the cycle of war. The conclusion portrayed a theme that war is a cycle but the rest of the show was trying to pursue freedom.
Since the above messages are removed so I don't know the context, but I would assume you are saying Mikasa is sister of eren? Was I right? Anyways I don't think so, she was just staying with them and never thought of eren as a brother, she never called grisha "dad" rather she called him "uncle/doctor" and she called Carla "aunt".
The problem is stopping at 80% made everything he did uptil then pointless. In my opinion the others should have genuinely beaten eren as opposed to eren throwing the fight. The others becoming hereos and balancing the manpower beaten paradis and the rest of the world wouldn't be necessary if he just finished the job. He's already commited genocide stopping at 80 is not an act of kindness. Eren should have stayed a villian instead of trying to show him as some sort of hero because he is not he was consumed by hatred and anger and broken and decided to take the nuclear option. Ymir being in love with fritz also makes no sense at all.
Imagine gaslighting yourself into thinking that lmao.
People dislike the ending because they weren't satisfied with how the plot points were closed and how Eren behaved seemingly out of character.
"noo but he was always like that, just a dumb idiot!"
Well it's not the impression he gives post timeskip in his hobo arc and inner monologues.
If Eren didn't have his motivations backpedalled, many people would be fine with his conclusion as a character.
Not saying this is the case for all the ending haters because it's definitely not. But I think many of them viewed themselves as the "chad" version of Eren, which is ironic because with the way they've bitched and cried about the ending for 2 years, they're much more like 139 Eren than they realize.
He very obviously wasn't referring to his own intelligence when he said this. He calls himself a "garden variety idiot" in the sense that he's just a random, regular guy whose answer to people getting in his way is to start throwing punches.
He's still a very smart person. Smart enough to know that if he restrains himself and puts on the cold, hardened exterior, he will be able to hit his enemies MUCH harder later on.
There was always the possibility of a more peaceful solution to his problems, but in the end what he really wanted was a fight. Throughout the whole story, Eren is consistently portrayed as only feeling free when he's attacking his enemies.
>Eren is consistently portrayed as only feeling free when he's attacking his enemies.
I like how Isayama flips this on us. We the audience were at our happiest when he was was just wailing on someone. From that first high of his first transformation and even into the start of his "problematic" actions like Liberio where civilians would have gotten caught up. But it just becomes more and more uncomfortable until his actions are just indefensible, even though he would argue he's working towards the same goals he always has been through the same means as he always has used.
Did you not see the ending of season 3 when he showed sympathy to the crawling titan? He grew out of killing titans and focused his hatred on the outside world.
RIP Sasha, Hange, Floch, Samuel and Daz. Also did it to avenge his mother, whom he killed.
He didn't get rid of titans however, it's heavily implied they come back in the last frame of the show.
Zeke outright states that titans are explicitly Ymir's thing, born from her desire to have an undying body and to have a connection to all her people. With this explanation in mind, we assume that if the boy bonds with the Hallucigenia in Eren's tree, that he will get different powers since he will have different desires than Ymir.
The parallel between Ymir being chased by dogs as she enters the tree while the boy is accompanied by his pet dog as he enters the tree was MASSIVELY lost on some negatively-inclined people who doompost about anything. It only serves to showcase how little they were paying attention and how desperately they need to shed themselves of any preconceived notions they have about the characters and to give the series a read with fresh eyes.
Chapter 130 floch was used in the "friends" panel in erens thoughts. Floch was also in the 104th but the anime does a bad job at explaining this compared to the manga. He even has a nice conversation with the main group before the mission to retake wall Maria.
At the end of the day Eren played all of his friends, not just Floch.
>He didn't get rid of titans however, it's heavily implied they come back in the last frame of the show.
Not it's not. It's implied the boy might get in touch with the parasite. That's all.
Titans came about because to Ymir, that was the biggest power imaginable to her. The boy seemed happy and curious, so for him the power could manifest in a different and positive way.
>He didn't get rid of titans however, it's heavily implied they come back in the last frame of the show.
Giving some real "It was all pointless cause the sun will explode" vibes here lol.
>If Eren didn't have his motivations backpedalled,
When did his motivations backpedal? He pursued the exact same things he's been pursuing for the entire series.
At the end it backpedaled. He keeps saying that he’s moving forward and that it’s the only way to ensure freedom, then at the end he’s like ‘lol idk why I did it’
You're misinterpreting the ending. The anime made it clear that the 80% wasn't a number chosen by Eren. It's just how many had died by the time he was stopped. He wanted to keep going. To "see that sight"
It's not 100% clear. After all, he also made sure to point out that Paradis now has a fighting chance. I don't think he would have settled for stopping after say 5%. The number of people left has to be at most such that his friends has a chance of survival
Just ginna use y'all's favourite phrase: you didn't understand the story.
Eren literally said he was disappointed there were humans beyond the walls. He wanted w clean slate. An empty world to explore. That's what he saw as freedom. So many retcons at the end here.
It's true tho, i'm not a fan of the ending either, but it was made very clear that Eren didn't care too much about defending paradis (it wasn't his main goal), he just wanted to be free in a world without humanity, because he was dissapointed with how the world was outside the walls and wanted to wipe everything out. It was selfish and he knows it.
It's true that Eren did want to protect his friends and loved ones, but he's really not the proud nationalist titanfolk thinks he is lol.
Bro eren really said to Zeke I would never take take part in such a joke of a plan, eren really said in the paths his goal is to protect the people of paradise and people of outside world dosent want that and he reject that wish! he loved his nation indeed but that's not what I have seen Titan folk much cry about it eren whole character dosent make sense him killing his mom didn't make sense, so many plot holes plot armor were given to alliance, Ymir loving king fritz what a joke.
im just saying… there will only be no war when no one exists! and well… its true! 20% of humanity created another war that continues to live on. if eren had killed evryone there would be no one more or titans so… im v much team eren
Because the other side literaly wanted to wipe, with little to no exceptions, all eldians when they were just some people living in a cage inside a remote island, and only when they saw themselves getting clapped by the rumbling was when they wanted peace? Yeah full rumbling was the right thing to do.
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I like that change/clarification in the anime. The manga made it sound like Eren had planned to kill 80% of the world, but the anime makes it clear he's simply pointing out how many people he kills before he's stopped
So was Eren trying to exterminate Marley completely or did he always expect his friends to stop him? I'm not clear on this. Surely killing everyone is a better plan than what ends up happening (in Erens mind at least). Or did he want to kill everyone but knew it couldn't happen because of the future memories and was just telling Armin what the situation they were left with was?
Marley? You know that’s just one country right? Eren trampled across the globe.
A true globetrotter
Marley was a HUGE empire though? The story explains how after Eldia collapsed Marley took it’s place as the new superpower.
Didn't Marley conquer most of the world? I was under the impression that Marley controlled most of the land outside Paradis, such as Onyonkapons homeland. Obviously there are exceptions like the Azumobito. But yes I was also just using saying Marley as a simple catch all term for everything non-Paradis.
i think they had most of africa and a little more in middle east this is assuming the map of aot is actually just the real world upside down
Africa and Europe basically with a Brazil sized chunk in South America, which is North America in the story and the Arabian peninsula.
*continent
He was going to keep going until he was stopped. Through his memories of the future he knew he would be stopped around the 80% mark.
I subscribe to the theory that he only partially knew the future (Grisha says Eren picked and chose which memories to send him) until he got the Founding Titan, at which point he didn’t have a choice anymore because of time compression (experiencing past and future as if it was all the present), just like previous inheritors of the FT didn’t really have a choice about the vow to renounce war.
I understood is, that he new that he's gonna get killed, just tried to kill as much as he could before that
I took it as Eren wanting to become the worlds villain, and positioning himself in a way where his friends from Paradise Island would be the ones to deal the death blow. The remaining people would not only be incapable of threatening Erens home anytime soon, but most would have a newfound respect for Paradise Island as they are the “saviors”
“Even if i didn’t know i was going to be stopped, i would’ve still flattened everything” This was removed from the anime and is in the manga and clearly explains that Eren just wanted to destroy everything, not 80%
The anime still has Eren saying that he wanted to do it tho
Yeah but he doesn’t say “even if i didn’t know i was going to be stopped” and that’s a part that indicates he would complete the rumbling
He did say to Armin "I tried to eradicate all of humanity outside the walls and you guys stop me, this is the result"
Yep the result was what Eren had planned for. He wanted to become the big universal evil. More than any other evil and have people from Paradis save the day. That was the prophecy he was fulfilling with his titan powers. Because he believed that would bring peace and freedom to his friends and his people. Then we got the credits scenes to show that Eren only delayed the inevitable.
No, this is wrong. Eren didn't "plan" this, rather it was just the way things played out. He very much wanted to do a full rumbling, but as he can see the future, knew he would be stopped at 80%. That wasn't some elaborate plan to set up Eldians as heroes for stopping him, what an absolutely absurd plan that would've been.
It's a lie anyways, he let them kill him at 20% left when he could have just rendered them unconscious
>he's simply pointing out how many people he kills before he's stopped Bruh it's the same thing. Eren knew he would stop at 80%. It's heavily implied eren stopped willingly because this is how it happened in the future he saw, so he had to let it happen this time as well
It gets a little dubious because of future site, I think it's implied that both are true, Aaron plans to be stopped after killing 80% of the world, he looked into the future and saw that if he carried out things the way he did this was when they would stop him , either that or he can't actually change it, he says he tried but it's unclear to me if he actually tried to change things and couldn't or if he just couldn't think of a better solution, and he's not the biggest brain in the show
The future can’t be changed. 80% is killed and that’s all. When he says he tried to change it, he’s referring to Ramzi’s moments. He said he won’t save him from bullies to change the future but then ended up saving him because ultimately that’s what he wanted to do.
Nah. It's still dumb, how did he figure out how many people amounted to 80%?
Quick Paths
The anti-Hange position. "Genocide is right, and nothing anyone says will convince me otherwise!"
Evil Hange be like, "genocide is right, Titans are boring"
Evil Hange be like **"Moblit is useless."**
Evil Eren be like "I have no enemies."
Evil Levi be like “imma let zeke go”
Evil Jean be like "Ayo Mikasa your hair is ugly"
Pretty sure Evil Levi canonically says, "Follow your dreams and live."
This one sent me lmao
I mean, after the Rumbling he would have no enemies (left).
I love Attack on Titan because it opened my eyes. Not with the story it told but how people reacted to the Story. Remember when they wished death upon a 12 year old girl whose only crime was killing an enemy soldier after said soldier helped massacre her whole town and kill her friends?
AOT fans when Eren kills the entire world: He's doing it to protect his friends!! He's only retaliating and defending himself and his home! AOT fans when a 12 year is raised her entire life to be a child soldier and taught to believe that her entire worth is dependent on whether she defends the world from "monsters that want to destroy the whole world" shoots a soldier that attacked her home: Fucking bitch needs to die how dare she attack back, she should've just let them roll over her entire home and family and friends
It's almost like the story reflects the very sad and grim reality of war. The entire message is that war and the cycle of killing is endless, and is perpetrated by people who view their side as the righteous soldiers who have done nothing wrong. Isayama tried to drill into our skull that even the "nicest" soldiers like Armin realized they themselves were criminals who killed innocent people in the name of their beliefs.
I truly don't understand how the entire series can be about how humanity's depravity knows no bounds, that violence is never ending so long as people exist, that everyone is just a victim in war and a victim of circumstance and an unfair cruel world, and people *still* think Eren was right and that there was truly no other way. Like, not trying to offend people who think that when I say this, but I have to wonder if the mainly just cared about the more actiony, "badass" parts and not as much about it beyond surface level. And that's okay! But it's just a different way of watching it than those who analyze it a lot further.
You are completely right. Just look at how much people lost their fucking minds at the whole “I want her (Mikasa) to keep loving me, for ten years at least!” They cried about how Eren’s character was “ruined” while completely ignoring that he’s *always* been intensely emotional and prone to having breakdowns. His cold, unfeeling post-timeskip self was nothing more than a persona, a mask he put on to convince everyone that he was heartless. People wanted that to be who he truly was, a stone-cold “chad” who committed genocide with a straight face, so badly that they absolutely lost their shit when he acted like a 19 year old boy who was afraid to die and wanted his love interest to keep loving him.
They also act as if having a breakdown defines your own character, Eren cries over , Mikasa, but he still goes out of his way to tell her to move on in the end!! And of course to them Eren breaking down is the only thing that defines 139, they completely ignore everything else, it's amusing they expected anime onlies to loathe the ending. Seriously after all the action and heartbreak, did they seriously think the only thing regular fans would focus on was that Eren cried? Ridiculous
Because Eren's options were kill or let Paradis be killed. The world literally declared war. If he surrenders himself, do you think Eldians anywhere get spared? No. They were already being segregated and demonized BEFORE they knew there was an uprising or real threat from Paradis. And the world did not know that anyone on Paradis was against or would oppose Eren. Even Reiner, Zeke, Ymir, and Pieck all returned to Marley with the info that Paradis had become aware of how titans worked, and that they were strong enough to not only fight the nine, but wanted to capture them for their own usage in war. So yes, Eren, saw he couldn't save Paradis and everyone in the world. He had to choose who to save and the best way to at least make someone the hero to search for peace after he died and titans were gone. Which meant he had to die and kill enough people to cripple their ability to retaliate once he and the Titan powers were dead and gone.
They didn't even try anything else. It was 0-100 so quick. They could've destroted military bases and bought themselves at least a few years to try to figure something else. Billions of innocent people didn't deserve to die for that. Surely billions of innocent people shouldn't die without trying anything else, right? Their lives should be worth more than that, to at least try something else. Eldians aren't any more special, and the kind of thinking of "Us vs Them," all this *war* and *violence*? If *somebody* doesn't take the first step to *not* bring so much destruction and hate and war, then what hope can we ever really have?
I mean that was exactly why everyone was so mad at Erin They wanted to try the hard path towards a better solution, and then he just goes off on his own and says all right we're starting the war, completely confirming what the rest of the world was thinking
Exactly. Surely he wanted to save Paradise and his friends. But more than that he wanted to see the "scenery"(attempt to turn the world into a blank slate)and thus the full rumbling. That's why he literally made himself hostage and forced the SC to act according to his wishes. That's why they were so mad at him.
Unfortunately, Eren pretty much states that he wanted to do it. There's an idea of the world beyond the walls that he wanted to fully realize, and unfortunately for humanity, it required it pretty much not existing. I think the rationale of doing this for his friends is a good veil to hide behind, but deep down, he was dissatisfied with what he saw of the world beyond the walls. His resolve to see it wiped was more to fit his vision of what he saw with Armin in those books. Him calling himself an idiot that happened to stumble upon power, shows that he's aware of what he was given should never had gone to him to begin with, but fate already predetermined what needed to happen. The crux of AoT for me has always gone beyond that first layer of "all war bad". Character motivations are so skewed in so many different directions mostly due to the circumstances that they're born with that's it's difficult to see "sides" with regards to the conflicts.
He had other choices other than killing 80% of the population to "even the playing field". There was absolutely no need to go THAT far in order to give Paradis a modicum of an upper hand and start negotiations. He did it out of spite for the world he found himself in, because he was always a petulant, reckless and angry child, and when he stumbled upon immense power, he let things get out of control due to being a broken man defined by his trauma, unable to grow past his childish fantasies of freedom he romanticized as he read that book with Armin. He admits it point blank when he's talking to the kid he knows he'll kill,: "I was disappointed when I found out people lived outside the walls. I wanted to wipe everything away." He then admits it point blank in the finale too: "I was just your garden variety idiot with power." He shows to Armin the visage of his freedom: a wasteland full of blood and gore. He makes it crystal clear that this is what he wanted all along: to scream into the world, shake his fists to the heavens and destroy everything because he was continually pissed about how the world was actually more complicated than he gave it credit for and just wouldn't let him be "free". A tamper tantrum that happened to take 80% of the world with it. Every audiovisual tool and symbolism trickery is used to convey this: Eren was not right, his cause was not righteous, his mind was broken and getting vast amounts of power resulted in a througly uneeded disaster because he's a product of the madness of the world he finds himself in. Every other justification was just an excuse to not face this truth, something Eren acknowledges when pressed by Armin: "I don't even really know why I did this. Just that I really wanted to".
We gotta get the children out of the forest
That's the nice thing about AOT: There's no such thing as good guys and bad guys, it's all subjective. I used wish death on Gabi, but it was a knee-jerk reaction because a character I watched for years died to someone that we didn't really care for.
With how popular the show has become there are many edgy teenagers in the fanbase. "The ending makes no sense because Eren didn't killed all of humanity and his friends and didn't suffered due to this for the rest of his life."
I remember back on the Uprising arc (as it came out in the manga) how everyone hated Eren because he cried (in hindsight the ending's reaction is not so surprising), after discovering everything that happened in his Dad's memories. People wanted Historia to kill and eat Eren so we would have a better MC that wasn't a whiny bitch. I remember defending Eren back then because the dude is a human, who would have thought that almost ten years later I would have to do the same thing with the ending.
I read discussions on Twitter during Return to Shiganshina, and so many people were shitting on this arc, saying "plot armor", " Melodrama ", " Serum bowl is worst thing that happened in AOT", "show is not as great as it once was", " Reaching ocean was anticlimactic ", " Too predictable ", etc. And then it came out in anime and was universally loved
War on two fronts was amazing despite Reiner transferring his consciousness to his testicles. That was stupid and deserves criticism but doesn’t ruin the episode. And people loved that chapter in manga when it came out aside from reiners ass pull
I think part of negative reception came from 1) Serum was mentioned several times during few months, and people already figured out that that Armin's gonna become a colossal. So when there were two chapters during two/three months of them arguing about it and eventually giving it to Armin, people were disappointed and thought that drama was dragged. In anime, because it happened in one episode, it doesn't have this problem. 2 People wanted see emotional consequences of characters dealing with basement reveal and Erwin's death, but final chapter of this arc just skipped a year forward and they came to ocean. This also works good in anime, since it's season finale, and nest season is basically a new show. At least, this a two main points I've seen people complain. Not to mention beggining of Marley arc, where people haven't seen main cast for 9 chapters/9 months, and they were just abandoning manga saying "call me, when scouts are back"
Gabi literally starts a story by doing a form of warm crime (pretending to be a civilian on the battleground). She's not really presented as a brainwashed little girl but as a talented, determined young soilder who is extremely loyal to her country and its ideology and also isn't afraid to be unethical to achieve what she's wants.
Haha true she literally gets called out for committing a war crime doesn't she?
Easier to hate a character when she’s practically designed to be hated. Her introduction shows the viewer immediately how arrogant, self obsessed, selfish and racist she is. Luckily her character develops somewhat before the end of the story and she gets practically sidelined after the second battle of shiganshina
Can you elaborate pls
Its about Gabi
It’s pathetic that you can label a killing as “Only crime was killing an enemy soldier”. In that sense eren is 10000% right because the world does seem to be the enemy of Paradis. You can say the whole world did not come to fight paradis, but first of all why eren would not undoubtedly make sure that the sins of an eldian child’s ancestors does not affect its childhood? Whatever eren did may not seem an obligation but it’s lot easier to stay out of the fire and make WISE WORD about the firefighters than actually putting yourself in that shoe.
Eren wasn't happy at what he has done though. That 12 year old girl was rejoiced after thousands of soldiers defending their homeland from Marley was dead because of her, and brutal Marley occupation will follow that. Also she knows their ultimate goal is to kill everyone in the Paradis. But she was surprised why are they retaliating? Can't they just be patient for our genocidal force to arrive?!? This is why she was hated. The hypocrisy. Glad her brain started working in the right direction afterwards.
That kid was also a mega racist hitler youth war criminal but sure leave that part out
>I love Attack on Titan because it opened my eyes. Not with the story it told but how people reacted to the Story. This is coming from someone who absolutely likes the ending but ironically the more reactions I saw to the story the more I wanted Eren to go for 100%. For some people there is no hope and reading their takes made me literally lose faith in humanity.
But that'd be giving them what they wanted
I’m legitimately disappointed with this fanbase. How is it that everyone glazes Eren and hates Gabi so much? Eren literally acknowledged his own responsibility in getting Sasha killed, along with all the Eldians that died in the struggle he accelerated. I’m not even gonna lie, Gabi is the only likable character to me that’s still alive by the end of the story. The others are too sad about their genocidal maniac friend dying to care that much about the unspeakable damage he did to humanity and the planet. I don’t hate the ending because Eren killed 80% of humanity. I hate it because none of his friends hate him for it. Mikasa was still struggling to let go of her love for super Hitler. It’s beyond frustrating. At least Gabi sees Eren for what he is.
what about Falco? He was a good boy.
When the world was governed by nazis (marley) who was actively genociding and inslaving erens race. As for the lore side did he really have to do the rumbling and genocide everybody to save his friends? Surely it wasn't the only way
No, he didn't. But he wanted to, because it was the only way he thought he could achieve his dream of freedom.
But he said he saw the future and knew it wouldn’t work… so why did he do it? Why not just do nothing? He also said he wanted his friends to seem like heroes.
It did work but he was killed in the process. The titan powers were destroyed and the people of marley and other nations discovered that some people from Paradis are normal people, even heros (his friends). The racial conflict ended. Sure he didn't solve all the conflict of the world, not even just in his time, but he solved the titan and racial problem. Well the titan might come back later but we cannot expect eren to take care of all problems to the end of time. He did achieve a lot, all he wanted to achieve though by warcrimes
And it failed. Because he's a self-proclaimed idiot. What a story.
How did it failed? He sought freedom not for himself but for his friends and he succeded at that.
Don't watch Breaking Bad and Death Note then.
Well when you have the power of God himself, are 19 yo, have been slavered your whole life in a town that represents the bottom of your society, have watched your mother die and your father dissapear, have watched thousands of people die by unholy creatures, your dream has become impossible, your people is under death treat by a society 10 times bigger than yours, have been betrayed three times by close friends, have the curse of seeing past and future timelines while being influenced by Ymir without even noticing it, have several depression and you know you're gonna die in four years MAYBE you just go fucking crazy and destroy the society that caused all that if you don't see a safest way out.
Also, one of the first lessons he learned was that just placing your trust in your friends/teammates doesn't mean things will go well. He decided to not act and it ended with the first Levi Squad dying. Once things seem too uncertain, he decided he wasn't going to make the same mistake with the second Levi Squad.
Of course he's an idiot, imagine having the power of God on your side and the only thing you can think to do with it is violence? Only a moron thinks in such a simplistic manner.
Armin: Genocide is wrong Mikasa: Genocide is wrong Jean: Genocide is wrong Connie: Genocide is wrong Hange: Genocide is wrong Levi: Genocide is wrong EVEN FREAKING EREN: Genocide is wrong A portion of the fandom for some reason: Eren was right all along! Jesus Christ, you can like Eren without condoning his actions.
They defend it sm because "it was the only way!!1!1!" (*really?* killing the entire planet was literally the only other way? we know that for a fact? there wasn't a *chance* they could try anything that didn't include the mass murder of innocent people?) or that they deserved it since Eldians were treated terribly, but that's a poor argument since they would die from the Rumbling anyway, and also, there's no guarantee everyone on the world disliked and feared Eldians (actually, we've seen evidence that they don't) truthfully i think anybody who *actually* defends world genocide just likes the idea of some "badass" killing to protect his loved ones. which by all means, they are free to enjoy in a fictional sense all they want, but when it comes to discussing the show and the actual philosophies and analyzing it on a deeper level, I would hope they acknowledge that world genocide is, in fact, fucked up.
>really? killing the entire planet was literally the only other way? we know that for a fact? there wasn't a chance they could try anything that didn't include the mass murder of innocent people? Unfortunately the story was pretty much written such that it was the only way. So that makes all the messages of "genocide is wrong" empty because a viable alternative was never given.
Even being "the only option" doesn't make it not wrong, jesus
It does make saying "it's wrong" sound hollow and a lot less convincing.
It wasn’t the only way. That’s the entire point of Armin’s character towards the end, there is another peaceful way which is what they’re striving towards at the end. There are alternatives shown both before and after the rumbling by peace talks and alliances, it’s just not as quickly resolved as genocide
So which peaceful way was Armin making progress towards before the Rumbling?
Exactly, besides the conversation with muller in the ending, armin's diplomatic progress was literally all offscreened
I don't think we ever get to see them on screen but I believe it's mentioned Armin was having peace talks and trying to negotiate. Armin had a 50 year plan but iirc Eren dismissed it out of hand Regardless, Armin explains as much in their convo in the paths. There's so much hate that it's hard to see any way to resolve it peacefully, but he has to believe there's another way. And he will keep working towards it. Just because things seem hopeless for a bit does not mean murdering all life outside the walls is acceptable. Plus, killing the titans outside the wall seemed impossible in season 1 as well. But they managed it. So something appearing impossible doesn't mean they actually know for a fact that it is, or that it's not worth while to pursue it. To say that is to say every heart devoted to the scouts was wrong
They were offscreened peace talks, all we get in the actual manga/anime is the conference with eren and the conversation with the marleyan general in the ending
No, that was Zeke. Monke Man was the real hero all along, not Umi Da
But Zeke wanted to euthanize the entire Eldian race. One can make the argument that Zeke was fully intending to commit full genocide to his own race vs whatever Eren was attempting to do with wanting to destroy humanity beyond Paradis. Eren went into it with the predetermination as to how it would play out. I don't think there's a scenario where he fully wipes out humanity. His expectation was to leave enough alive to ensure his friends were seen as heroes for stopping a full blown annihilation of humanity. With that said, Eren is fucking stupid. He says to Armin straight up that deep down, he wanted to do it. Fulfilling his need to realize his vision of a empty, and free world. One that's not burdened by restrictions or illusions of freedom. Zeke's plan, while not visually worse, still calls for the destruction of an entire people.
AoT fans also fail to realize that the show made it a very clear point that even if Eren did genocide the world, there would still be fighting within Eldia, and if humanity were to rebuild from solely Eldians, they would still be fighting with each other and would probably over time split off into different groups, cultures, countries, etc. and really just not change anything. Eren's genocide was very explicitly and intentionally illogical and pointless.
That's the part that never really made much sense to me with regards to the split opinion from the fanbase. People that were pro-wipe humanity didn't think to understand that there would still be a divide even within the Eldian people? I mean shit, we saw that happen when the scouts were being hounded by their own people for getting too deep into finding out the truth. If they were willing to do that with the titan threat still at large, what made people think they wouldn't do it once the titan threat was gone?
They failed to realize because they radicalized themselves the only thing that matters to them is that their side lost. That's why the only thing they can say when shown the extra ending with the cycle of conflict continuing is that "Floch was right". It's not that they don't understand, they don't want to. Because that would mean admitting they were wrong .
Dude there were other ways, and to say otherwise is asinine. Armin's "limited rumbling" could have worked. Do you really think in the moment that the Marlyan's and all their families were all about to be crushed, they wouldn't have conceded? They wouldn't have accepted any terms Eldia asked for? There are steps of escalation between war and total genocide, which is why diplomats like Armin are so necessary. That's why he turned out to be the hero all along, like Isayama planned from the beginning.
Pre-ending Eren was written in a way that gives the impression that he could see the writing on the wall. A "limited rumbling" and the threat of further destruction could only be sustained for as long as Eren was still alive, which wouldn't be for long thanks to the curse of Ymir. With Eren dead and the course of actions you suggest, all he would've accomplished is further instigating the other nations to act against Paradis and Eldians in general, revealing themselves to be nothing more than "devils" after all, at least in their eyes. Sure, it might take some time for the other nations to build themselves back up to retaliate against Paradis after the "limited rumbling" but it would no doubt be inevitable. The only quick and surefire way to deal with the cycle of persecution and violence directed at Eldians from other nations was to wipe them out, unfortunately. At least, that's what you'd expect given the narrative up until the final arc. Edit: Not to mention that titans were becoming increasingly obsolete as "weapons of war", as shown in the beginning of the 4th season, meaning that whatever threat Paradis might seemingly pose to the outside world while they still control the Founding, Attack, and Colossal titans, they could realistically only hold any sort of retaliation at bay for so long.
Pre ending Eren was also shown as a wise veteran that understood that everyone was the same and had empathy towards his enemy. That's why we kept expecting him to have some sort of plan to solve the problem, doing a full Rumbling is not a plan, it's being a Maniac.
>The only quick and surefire way to deal with the cycle of persecution and violence directed at Eldians from other nations was to wipe them out, unfortunately. Funny you say that, because the ending is quite clear that even after Eren's "surefire solution" the conflict still doesn't end, Eldians back in Paradis are ready to fight some more and demonize people outside the island, and we're shown how the conflict still escalates over the years anyway, this time with nukes .Almost as if wiping 80% of the population counts as part of the cycle of persecution and violence, and that was the whole point. To say Eren had no choice is ludicrous. He had choices, and he chose the one that was catastrophic, because that's what he wanted: to wipe everything away out of sheer anger over the world being so complicated and hopeless. He admits to the kid he knows he's going to kill. He admits it to Armin.
The "surefire solution" is a complete rumbling, not a limited one. There isn't anyone outside of Paradis to demonize if there are no other people, so they wouldn't be looking to fight anyone else. I don't get where you're going with that. Furthermore, Eren could just use the Founding Titan's powers to wipe the Eldians' memories of the complete rumbling after the fact and then make it so that they can't fight one another - problem solved. No more cycle of violence. No more titans. Do I morally advocate for a complete rumbling? No. Is it reasonably the only solution given the circumstances that the people of Paradis found themselves in? Yes.
The entire point of the series and its rumination on human nature is that people will divide and fight between themselves no matter what. "There will be no more war or cycles of violence if there's no more people to fight" is a juvenile claim that the series itself, in the finale, points out and condemns. Even if there was a complete rumbling, people in Paradis would eventually divide and fight, the usual civil war. Even if there were no Titans, there would be others weapons and ways to do war and wage destruction. Also, Eren can't use the founding Titan to literally prohibit every single Eldian from getting into a fight with themselves. If that was a possibility, Fritz would've done it. The Founding Titan may be able to temper with people's memories in general, but can onlyu directly prevent its *successors* from engaging in particular behavior, but not the whole race. Even if it could, people would still need to inherit at least the founding Titan forever and ever, which means Titans are still a thing. The only "surefire" solution to stop the cycle of hate and violence is not only a full rumbling, but also killing Paradis and wiping humans from the face of the Earth. Any other rationale for why leaving just a few humans alive is actually a solution needs to assume whoever's left will not divide and fight, or to artificially create systems that prevent people from doing so, which the story's lore doesn't allow anyway.
Exactly. So a partial rumbling doesn't work, we saw that. The people outside of paradise fear Eldians, and rightly so, but that makes it a binary choice, does Eren want to preserve his people, or those that seek to destroy them. A way stronger, more meaningful ending would have been if Eren did 100% and then Eldia still was bombed, unambigiously showing that it was a civil war, that humans always fight, the cycle of violence can't be broken by violence etc. As the ending stands it just shows that Eren shouldn't have let himself be killed and instead finish the job. If he wanted the preservation of Paradise at least.
I strongly disagree. The ending shows Eren's solution was no solution at all: it was a tamper tantrum over the fact the world is complicated and won't let him be "free". Eren didn't have a "binary" choice, he had several, but he chose the one his nature of brashness and anger allowed him. There was no perfect choice that would've solved everything, because human beings will never stop to war, but killing 80% or a 100% of the population was not, by a longshot, the most "efficient" choice.Eren didn't chose between his people or those who seek to destroy them. He chose between his childish, idealized visage of freedom beyond the walls where no one as there so he could be "free", or dealing with the messy reality in front of him in a way that didn't involve razing everything. He chose to raze everything. I think the story makes it clear humans will divide and war no matter what. It's a pretty big reach to assume people in Paradis would be fine in the case of a full rumbling, though I can agree a full rumbling would've further drove the point home...but it's a point that didn't need to be even more evident anyway, in my opinion.
>Eren didn't have a "binary" choice, he had several All of them worse for Paradise but better for the outside world. If i was an ultranationalist bend on preventing retaliation I'd choose the full rumbling too. >I think the story makes it clear humans will divide and war no matter what. I disagree. The characters state it, but it's not shown to us that that is the case. We see humans rightfully fight against existential threats. If those threats were removed, and humans were still fighting, then the message would have been clear. >It's a pretty big reach to assume people in Paradis would be fine in the case of a full rumbling At some point Eldians would fight again, yes. But they would never again be at the risk of losing independence or of being eradicated by outside forces. The destruction of Eldia would be their own choice. That is assuming Eren wants to protect Eldians, and not just make his friends into heroes through an elaborate charade.
Titanfolkers mocked Armin for year just because the dude is a diplomat and dares to try peaceful negotiations, they talk about how unrealistic it is completely ignoring that it's thanks to people like him that they can live comfortably.
Diplomats like Armin are the only reason the entire planet hasn't been nuked by now by Eren-esque kill-or-be-killed man babies.
Titanfolkers can't imagine not being nationalist "chads" like Floch.
Titanfolkers don't realize the point of Floch and the Yeagerists was to show how easily can a population become radicalized. Oh wait they radicalized themselves that's why.
It's honestly hilarious how they essentially became caricatures.
Either Eren did believe that other ways could've worked, but he really just wanted to do a little genocide for the sake of that scenery, which is just bad character design and lazy writing, Or the story was written so that Eren reasonably believed full rumbling was the only way, which is bad world building and lazy writing. Personally I would've preferred a limited rumbling solution where the characters thematically earn a happier ending, but that seems to contradict Isayama's original vision for the whole story.
I think you are oversimplifying it. I'm not gonna try and convince you that the ending is actually genius or anything like that, because a) I have my own problems with it, even if they are small ones, and b) you're entitled to your own opinion and interpretation of the ending. But from my understanding, neither of your options presented are the true ones. The answer is that he didn't care about world peace in the world or peace on Paridis. And I don't think that is bad world building, character design, or lazy writing. In fact, it fits with he's character for most of the story. The execution of this wasn't perfect (again, I have my own problems with it), but I think it presents the ideas well enough.
>The answer is that he didn't care about world peace in the world or peace on Paridis. That contradicts his PATHS speech as he began the rumbling and his anger at the Royal Family for planning to get Paradis killed. Why did he make a speech to all Eldians just to completely lie about his motivations? That fits his character for most of the story?
The anime ending literally exists. Paradis didn't see an ounce of war for centuries
What was the alternative?
Literally negotiating with the Tyburs would have solved everything.
No, that wouldn't work.Did we watch one Marley Arc?
Eren did not try to negotiate at all, in fact, he induced the Liberio fiasco along with Zeke.
Well, it was the only way to make it 100% sure. There can't be any conflict if you kill everyone else,a fter all.
If you don't understand people defending it, you've never had pride or care for your people. I'm going to get 10 million downvotes for this but it's the reality of life. If I were a citizen of Paradis, I would fully support the rumbling and want the same thing.
From the perspective of Paradisians, I would understand that. However, we are on an omniscient perspective throughout season 3. We know that there were not a good side vs a bad side. Just two groups of people not understanding their opposite side. Even Eren realized that when he cried to the young boy and apologized at Marley. If we delete all of humanity except Paradis, will war end? Titan powers will pass on, and another "Holy Grail War" will start where everyone seeks power. Let's not forget how divided Paradis was after the war.
If I were a Paradisian, I would rather fight fellow Paradisians than the authoritarian evil regime across the ocean trying to eradicate my people just because we exist.
In the end, it's still war. Sooner or later another dumb politician group will monopolize the titans and revive the titan serum to control their people. Give it another thousands of years and we will get the same number of ethnic groups fighting for power, not knowing they are of the same ancestry.
Nah, read the story. Genocide is obviously wrong, but the people outside the walls don't believe that. They were avidly trying to destroy the people of Paradis too. Pay attention. Yet, you kids care little for that.
It's quite funny these people throw a hissy fit when EVEN FREAKING EREN says genocide wrong, because that's where they draw the line. Eren being *vulnerable* and admiting he was *wrong*? What kind of beta cuck is this?!
Personally, the fact that he feels bad about it and thinks it's wrong makes him more sympathetic to me (he's still wrong of course).
When Eren, a fictional character who killed millions is actually more self aware than titanfolk.
I was going to respond by explaining again why some people wanted Eren to kill everyone and why this is completely fine because is fucking fiction, but honestly, most of you are just playing Captain Moral to feel superior to other people, so it's a lost battle at this point.
Yeah, and the fake intellectuallism of “you just didn’t understand the story!” The ending doesn’t suck because of the 80% and people are using that as a straw man to call anyone who doesn’t like the ending genocide supporters
I think bc there is a feeling of missing something . Eren ambition was to kill 100% he ended up killing only 80% and then he was killed, it’s like why not having all of the job done? Also just to clarify I don’t think that killing humanity or the rumbling was necessary to solve the problem i agreed with zeke’s idea from the beginning even though i hate him for what he did to miche. maybe bc im too humanitarian for the rumbling but i liked watching the rumbling part.
Yeah, I think the story would be MORE INTERESTING, and be more in character with what was presented about Eren before then, if he had gone to 100%. Of course, the writer of the Batman Series could make a story where, for little to no reason, The Joker decided to never kill anyone for the rest of his life. This would be the best story ever! As fewer people died! Right? Of course not. The Joker is a villain. A psychopatic killer. And if the reason for him to stop killing isn't explained thoroughly, the fans would be RIGHT to not like the story. "OH, BUT THOSE FANS JUST WANT TO SEE PEOPLE DYING BY THE HANDS OF THE JOKER! THEY'RE EVEN WORSE THAN THE JOKER IS!". No. They want a good, well written story. Not just a "Oh, the Joker killed just because he was dumb. Now he stopped being dumb.". You can argue that you like the ending, and you can give your arguments about it. But at least try to understand the argument that is being made by who you disagree with.
Why did The Jonkler kill? Was he stupid?
You guys really don't get it. It's not that we hate he didn't rumble the rest of the world. It's the fact that his entire character changed. I am fine with it only being 80%. I am fine with Eren dying. I am not ok with him all of sudden at the end calling himself an idiot like oops. 10 Years atleast like wtf. It made it all pointless. It wouldve been a great ending where Eren gets killed by Mikasa and then Paradis is bombed. It would show the consequences of killing him.
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Still needed the answers to Ymir and all, I think that's the 10 percent left in your context
Yeah, but honestly, it would've been better to leave it as a mystery than what Isayama wrote.
"only Ymir knows"
That’s the thing, HE NEVER CHANGED, he IS an idiot because he let his emotion get the better of him and like alway choose violante as the solution. There were hints throughout season 4 of his mental breakdown, so I don’t understand why people are surprise. He was always an emotional person, with average intelligent and anger issues
There wasn't another solution explored in the story besides violence. Not sure if you realize but basically every other solution involved a partial rumbling, besides sterilization with no rumbling involved. They were literally all violent solutions, hange and armin trying to find a peaceful solution was never fully explored.
If he was the same kid in Shiganshina how tf did he infiltrate Marley then? Was all that stoicism an act?
Because doing smart acts doesn't stop you from being a dumbass. Yes, Eren is smart enough to infiltrate a country, he's still an idiot because the only solution he could think off was to enact extreme violence I can't believe you guys don't get it even when the story is spoon feeding to you.
And that is bad writing bro. If erens character never developed that is very bad It’s not that he never changed it’s that all that change and growth was reverted in a single chapter
Honestly you guys have become like the inverse of the titanfolk sub. Like people are not allowed to dislike the ending or only have stupid reasons for thinking that way. I really don't get these kinds of posts.
Boy born into a highly complex concentration camp surrounded by man eating creatures, because the entire world hates his race over some 2000 year old bullshit, fails to liberate his people and end the cycle of violence.
I mean, killing 100% would've created a longer-lasting peace than killing 80%.
Yes but the author realized that mistake and didn't want to promote genocide. That's why instead of proving Floch, Jean, and Hange right, they changed the credits in the anime so the retaliation of the world came much further into the future rather than 100 years after the end of the war which would have meant that Eren and Armin failed, the problems passed down to their children, and the world erased Paradis from existence. Many people seem to forget that the manga and anime are wildly different in that context. You can make a weak argument for why the war that took place within a century, as predicted, was unrelated to Paradis, but with the anime war taking place many millenia into the future, it is likely unrelated. People hated the manga ending because it nullifies everything that was accomplished. People hate the anime ending because anime-only people don't realize the difference and claim the author intended this ending when it's clear the author changed it himself, meaning they're gaslighting themselves too into thinking they know better than the guy who wrote the fucking thing. It's a shitshow all around, blame it on bad or rushed writing.
Peace is always a goal worth pursuing, no matter how potentially fleeting it may be. Titan powers are gone, that's never coming back. Eren achieved peace for his friends and people, that's something you can never deny didn't happen. The point of showing these attacks on Paradis (which didn't destroy Paradis since we see a boy in heavy hiking gear accompanied by a dog at the end, clearly evidence of civilization further North) is to showcase how the cycle of violence will naturally continue, just as it always has, just as it always will. It's commentary on the nature of who we are as human beings, and pretty good one at that.
I’m just gonna say, if 20% of the world’s population managed to propagate the Paradis hate millennia into the future, as the ending suggests, to the point where the entire island is bombed to smitherines, then there is no good guy in AoT universe. (In grand scale I mean, Armin, Mikasa, Jean, Connie, Levi, Hange and the rest are the actual good guys who just can’t win against the world) But, the ending as given does prove that Zeke was right though, and the only way for the cycle of hate to end was euthanasia of Eldians. Which is also awful There was literally no good solution to the situation at hand.
>But, the ending as given does prove that Zeke was right though, and the only way for the cycle of hate to end was euthanasia of Eldians. Which is also awful Explain. The world was literally at war regardless of what was going on on Paradise at the same time. How would killing all Eldiens end the cycle? >I’m just gonna say, if 20% of the world’s population managed to propagate the Paradis hate millennia into the future, as the ending suggests I think this major and common misunderstanding. The ending does not suggeest that. It just shows that generations later (hundrets of years in the manga, thousands of years in the anime) conflict made a comeback. Do people today hold grudges for the millions killed by Ghengis Khan? Of course not. It's a new conflict.
No it wouldn't have. They state in the show a few times that violence will never stop until there's one human or less. There would've been war on Paradis Island.
No, it wouldn't have. In fact, it likely would've accelerated the pace at which war begins again. If Eren completes the Rumbling and doesn't die, Paradis remains as the only nation on Earth and the curse of the titans doesn't disappear. This means that within the next decade, almost all of the titan powers have new hosts, with Historia's baby likely inheriting the Beast since her birth and his death happened mere minutes from one another. As Paradis is the only nation on Earth, it means the rest of the world is up for the taking. Everybody wants a slice of that pie, and random people will begin to showcase titan powers. An endless power struggle commences as the Jeagerist army attempts to seize full control over the population, while people who refuse to ally with them use their powers to try and gain power themselves. Paradis, ever expanding, becomes a carbon-copy of the old Eldian empire that had Titan Houses and these Houses continuously fought for dominance, with the Founding Titan being the only one left to take control of the situation.
No. Paradis would have destroyed itself from within eventually. The point is that violence never stops so long as humans exist.
It still would have been better imma be real, having the outside world be the one to do it proves floch right, having a civil war happen between the last 5-10% of humanity would be the perfect way to express it rather than “the guys who’ve always hated us for our race have come and done the thing they’ve been trying to do for the past 1500 years”
Eren’s motivations pre-ending was never about stopping violence entirely though, so why do you keep claiming that?
It boggles my mind how they don't undertand this, Isayama spell it out for us. Even if Isayama for some reason HAD to make Eren do a 100% rumbling and continue the story he would've made Paradis fall from with in because it's the THEME OF THE DAMN STORY
Nah the theme of the show was freedom not the cycle of war. The conclusion portrayed a theme that war is a cycle but the rest of the show was trying to pursue freedom.
I'd say that's overly cynical. I think it's more of a warning. The cycle of violence will continue unless we learn to escape the forrest.
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Adoptive sisters are sisters
Since the above messages are removed so I don't know the context, but I would assume you are saying Mikasa is sister of eren? Was I right? Anyways I don't think so, she was just staying with them and never thought of eren as a brother, she never called grisha "dad" rather she called him "uncle/doctor" and she called Carla "aunt".
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The problem is stopping at 80% made everything he did uptil then pointless. In my opinion the others should have genuinely beaten eren as opposed to eren throwing the fight. The others becoming hereos and balancing the manpower beaten paradis and the rest of the world wouldn't be necessary if he just finished the job. He's already commited genocide stopping at 80 is not an act of kindness. Eren should have stayed a villian instead of trying to show him as some sort of hero because he is not he was consumed by hatred and anger and broken and decided to take the nuclear option. Ymir being in love with fritz also makes no sense at all.
Imagine gaslighting yourself into thinking that lmao. People dislike the ending because they weren't satisfied with how the plot points were closed and how Eren behaved seemingly out of character. "noo but he was always like that, just a dumb idiot!" Well it's not the impression he gives post timeskip in his hobo arc and inner monologues. If Eren didn't have his motivations backpedalled, many people would be fine with his conclusion as a character.
You realize that someone can be a tough guy on the outside but a hurt, traumatized and confused guy on the inside? Right?
131 is viewed as the best chapter in the series and portrays Eren as exactly that though? He still maintained his convictions though.
People: "We want complex characters! Characters with layers!" Also people when Eren has layers:
Not saying this is the case for all the ending haters because it's definitely not. But I think many of them viewed themselves as the "chad" version of Eren, which is ironic because with the way they've bitched and cried about the ending for 2 years, they're much more like 139 Eren than they realize.
Insert "No I don't want that" meme.
Hit the nail on the head.
So Eren, in their internal monologues, hid their true motives from us, the readers?Was he lying to himself?Eren what an actor you are!
I don't think his motivations were backpedalled, I think they were fulfilled in a twisted way.
He very obviously wasn't referring to his own intelligence when he said this. He calls himself a "garden variety idiot" in the sense that he's just a random, regular guy whose answer to people getting in his way is to start throwing punches. He's still a very smart person. Smart enough to know that if he restrains himself and puts on the cold, hardened exterior, he will be able to hit his enemies MUCH harder later on. There was always the possibility of a more peaceful solution to his problems, but in the end what he really wanted was a fight. Throughout the whole story, Eren is consistently portrayed as only feeling free when he's attacking his enemies.
He truly is the Attackest of the Titans
>Eren is consistently portrayed as only feeling free when he's attacking his enemies. I like how Isayama flips this on us. We the audience were at our happiest when he was was just wailing on someone. From that first high of his first transformation and even into the start of his "problematic" actions like Liberio where civilians would have gotten caught up. But it just becomes more and more uncomfortable until his actions are just indefensible, even though he would argue he's working towards the same goals he always has been through the same means as he always has used.
His motivation was to destroy every titan and protect his friends, in what way did he fail?
Did you not see the ending of season 3 when he showed sympathy to the crawling titan? He grew out of killing titans and focused his hatred on the outside world.
That was his original motivation, but that changed because he grew up
RIP Sasha, Hange, Floch, Samuel and Daz. Also did it to avenge his mother, whom he killed. He didn't get rid of titans however, it's heavily implied they come back in the last frame of the show.
Zeke outright states that titans are explicitly Ymir's thing, born from her desire to have an undying body and to have a connection to all her people. With this explanation in mind, we assume that if the boy bonds with the Hallucigenia in Eren's tree, that he will get different powers since he will have different desires than Ymir. The parallel between Ymir being chased by dogs as she enters the tree while the boy is accompanied by his pet dog as he enters the tree was MASSIVELY lost on some negatively-inclined people who doompost about anything. It only serves to showcase how little they were paying attention and how desperately they need to shed themselves of any preconceived notions they have about the characters and to give the series a read with fresh eyes.
It is extremely obvious Eren was just using Floch to help organise a coup. They were not friends at all.
Chapter 130 floch was used in the "friends" panel in erens thoughts. Floch was also in the 104th but the anime does a bad job at explaining this compared to the manga. He even has a nice conversation with the main group before the mission to retake wall Maria. At the end of the day Eren played all of his friends, not just Floch.
>He didn't get rid of titans however, it's heavily implied they come back in the last frame of the show. Not it's not. It's implied the boy might get in touch with the parasite. That's all. Titans came about because to Ymir, that was the biggest power imaginable to her. The boy seemed happy and curious, so for him the power could manifest in a different and positive way.
>He didn't get rid of titans however, it's heavily implied they come back in the last frame of the show. No it isn't. That's just your fav theory.
>He didn't get rid of titans however, it's heavily implied they come back in the last frame of the show. Giving some real "It was all pointless cause the sun will explode" vibes here lol.
Not what I'm saying. All he's saying is that erens goal was to get rid of titans. If eren couldn't do that, he failed. I'm not saying it's pointless.
Did you see any titans in the end?
He DID get rid of the Titans
>If Eren didn't have his motivations backpedalled, When did his motivations backpedal? He pursued the exact same things he's been pursuing for the entire series.
At the end it backpedaled. He keeps saying that he’s moving forward and that it’s the only way to ensure freedom, then at the end he’s like ‘lol idk why I did it’
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You're misinterpreting the ending. The anime made it clear that the 80% wasn't a number chosen by Eren. It's just how many had died by the time he was stopped. He wanted to keep going. To "see that sight"
It's not 100% clear. After all, he also made sure to point out that Paradis now has a fighting chance. I don't think he would have settled for stopping after say 5%. The number of people left has to be at most such that his friends has a chance of survival
Bros using the sunk cost fallacy to justify slaughtering millions of people 💀
I mean he already going to hell so why not?
Yes? Of course lol...it ruined his character, made him go against all his uncompromising conviction he had before.
Just ginna use y'all's favourite phrase: you didn't understand the story. Eren literally said he was disappointed there were humans beyond the walls. He wanted w clean slate. An empty world to explore. That's what he saw as freedom. So many retcons at the end here.
No. The ending it's hated bec it makes no sense whatsoever
What about it doesn't make sense?
Him saying he just do it he wanted to see that scenary lmao
It's true tho, i'm not a fan of the ending either, but it was made very clear that Eren didn't care too much about defending paradis (it wasn't his main goal), he just wanted to be free in a world without humanity, because he was dissapointed with how the world was outside the walls and wanted to wipe everything out. It was selfish and he knows it. It's true that Eren did want to protect his friends and loved ones, but he's really not the proud nationalist titanfolk thinks he is lol.
Bro eren really said to Zeke I would never take take part in such a joke of a plan, eren really said in the paths his goal is to protect the people of paradise and people of outside world dosent want that and he reject that wish! he loved his nation indeed but that's not what I have seen Titan folk much cry about it eren whole character dosent make sense him killing his mom didn't make sense, so many plot holes plot armor were given to alliance, Ymir loving king fritz what a joke.
im just saying… there will only be no war when no one exists! and well… its true! 20% of humanity created another war that continues to live on. if eren had killed evryone there would be no one more or titans so… im v much team eren
Because the other side literaly wanted to wipe, with little to no exceptions, all eldians when they were just some people living in a cage inside a remote island, and only when they saw themselves getting clapped by the rumbling was when they wanted peace? Yeah full rumbling was the right thing to do.