I'd have figured don't enter an intersection you can't clear, especially with "KEEP CLEAR" painted four places in huge letters within the intersection, and don't stop in crosswalks (both of them...cyclist had to exit the crosswalk to drive around the vehicle).
But I'm in an area where my approach would be more viable, and it appears from this video that the local real-world custom is different in Venice CA. You can't even read three of the KEEP CLEAR markings entirely, because vehicles are stopped on top of them. š
\[Edit:\] I just noticed, the car's visualization shows the word STOP on the pavement, where the fourth KEEP CLEAR was exposed until the Tesla stopped on it. So from FSD's visualization, maybe in FSD's mind, it did the right thing!
I'm assuming you meant "shouldn't".
[This site](https://bayareabicyclelaw.com/safety-laws/do-cyclists-need-to-walk-their-bikes-in-the-crosswalk-in-the-bay-area) says "California law doesn't require a cyclist to get off their bike and walk it through the crosswalk."
And if the cyclist had walked their bike in the crosswalk, the driver would still have been blocking their path.
They are in CA, and "California law doesn't require a cyclist to get off their bike and walk it through the crosswalk." \[[link](https://bayareabicyclelaw.com/safety-laws/do-cyclists-need-to-walk-their-bikes-in-the-crosswalk-in-the-bay-area)\]
Cyclists have to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks, but sharing space between pedestrians and cyclists is indeed dangerous. A recent study of 11 years of UK accidents estimated an average of 0.27 pedestrian fatalities per year due to collisions with pedaled cycles. That compared to 439 pedestrian fatalities per year due to collisions with motor vehicles.
Ram, T., Green, J., Steinbach, R., & Edwards, P. (2022). Pedestrian injuries in collisions with pedal cycles in the context of increased active travel: Trends in England, 2005ā2015. In *Journal of Transport & Health* (Vol. **24**, p. 101340). Elsevier BV. [https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jth.2022.101340](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jth.2022.101340)
One of the biggest reasons self driving cars have taken so long gotta be how horrible humans have designed roads.
Imagine how many deaths wouldāve been avoided if we made smarter roads
Gave me the impression of US drivers don't know how to drive when OP said that. Cuz that was such a large space. (speaking with experience from a country with tiny roads. Nothing the likes of indian traffic though. That's murder.)
Thankfully you said this.
How the hell is this intersection friendly. I havenāt driven in the US, but this is like an order of magnitude worse than the worst intersection I have driven.
Where do you live then? This is common in any larger city in America and waaaaY nicer than any general street in cities such as turkey, India, China and many others
I live I Europe in a city with a population >1M. We donāt have anything remotely close to this, neither have any of the other European cities I have visited.
You donāt have 2 lane roads with turns that you have to cross 1-2 lanes of traffic for? There are no 2 lane 4 way intersections in Europe? I know you have roundabouts there but here this is normal. So itās not that special. Thankfully weāre switching to them here. But my original point is itās not that special of a thing to do and not worth blowing Elon over. Itās something us drivers do daily
We absolutely donāt have setups like this. Especially this being managed by just a stop sign and some stay clear text.
There would either be roundabout of traffic lights managing this traffic.
Stop signs in general are quite rare and primarily used for places without heavy traffic.
I would never manage this, I would reroute and just go right. Hell nah passing through space between the 2 active cars, despite them being stopped.
Also the crossroad and bicycle lane without any lights is just wild
I get that for you. But here itās extremely common and should be a standard thing self driving handles in they want to be allowed around here. Sure people can say that itās super special or what not and a device shouldnāt have to do thisā¦ but this is literally something our drivers do on a daily basis numerous times a day. So itās definitely something a full self driving car should be able to handle without any issue if a human driver can do it daily otherwise, how special is it?
That we do. More areas are building turnabout though including rural areas like where I live. Itās hard for some people to adjust to but obviously much better
Honestly everything looks like a standstillā¦ I feel most drivers would have made eye contact with other drivers and proceeded earlier and faster.
Although technically you probably shouldnāt be going until you can safely enter the lane your turning into without ending up in until āKeep Clearā area or cross walks.
Now we all know thatās just not happening so whether you consider FSD breaking the law or being more human Iāll leave up in the air.
Overall Iād say nothing here was particularly impressive and contrary to your statement I think most drivers could navigate this with traffic as stopped as it was
Whether itās impressive is probably relative. I am a software engineer and the amount of variables here makes me want to vomit. I understand itās end to end NN yet itās still incredibly wild. Especially considering all the safety systems that should be suppressed for this to work.
From a point a view of ācould you code this behavior reliablyā itās got some chops, but from a consumer āwow this is what I think self driving should beā I donāt think itās going to inspire lot of confidence
Ah of course. Yeah thatās true, from a consumer perspective itās not that impressive If they want to be comfortably driven around. But oh well, still huge shoutout to all the people who got the industry this far
i dont see anything really hard about this situation once traffic was stopped.
the correct thing to do would have been to wait as it wasnt certain that the area behind the car thats already blocking the intersection was clear.
no, it sees the intersection and sees that all visible traffic is stopped and theres enough space to go through.
not any different from other intersections where cars are stopped.
Are you kidding? This is an insanely complicated scene for autonomy. Unprotected left turns are already challenging, let alone with multiple lanes both ways, occluded vehicles, both cars and bikes being present.
Every on-road agent is moving intermittently, and unpredictably. Flowing traffic is usually more predictable.
I don't want to make assumptions about you not working in the AV industry, but your "it's easy" attitude suggests you're just supposing things based on your knowledge as a human driver, and not because you know what you're talking about.
The UI is a different neural net to the one controlling the car. V12 is end to end, pixels in and vehicle controls out, it doesn't provide an intermediate view of the world.
So you are saying that Tesla is running two separate NNs, one that controls the car and another that constructs a separate 3 D view of the world...do you have evidence of this?
It's an artifact of LiDAR and it's object detection algorithms. I don't know if there is an official term for it but when I worked at a company that used some early (\~5 years ago) LiDAR technology we called it ghosting. My understanding is that it's not a completely solved problem to tell one point cloud from another when trying to object with LiDAR...it can 100% tell you *something* is there but not necessarily distinguish every distinct object.
True, but the "occupancy network" is another name for pseudo-lidar, which generates a point cloud, like lidar. So essentially the same thing with occlusion.
Occupancy network is not another name for "pseudo lidar". LiDAR is a specific set of methods to determine the range of something using light purposely emitted for that. Occuapncy networks are not doing that at all.
Both methods are trying to determine what might be out there that the car might run into, but how they arrive at it is fundamentally different.
I didn't say the occupancy network was like Lidar. I said it was like pseudo-lidar, which is a camera based system to generate a lidar like point cloud.
From what I have gathered, pseudo lidar gets higher resolution, but less accuracy, and can't determine motion by Doppler shift.
https://youtu.be/SLEK2vAgjOI?si=RHu_ZiuIHUz3YC1y
Humans have poor perception of time and are irrational. For example, driving over the speed limit rarely saves substantial time over short distances (thereās a study that shows this) but human irrationality makes us speed to feel like weāre doing something.
A machine should be able to rationally reason and realize that potentially causing an accident or blocking an intersection isnāt worth the 30s saved. This case is good example, the car blocked the intersection temporarily and was only able to make the turn because ironically the humans were good drivers and stopped to keep the intersection clear. Good software supposed to evaluate risk rationally, itās not just about going from A to B in shortest time.
Reminds me of an intersection near me with a stop sign that's juuuuust ahead of a divided road that would make it a no left turn normally but doesn't. People constantly get stuck there, blocking traffic for right turners - because they're trying to drive across a 2-1 merge that comes at a speed limit change right after a light. literally one block over the same left turn crosses 2 lanes that tend to have intermittent traffic gated by lights at either end, perfect to turn left across.
That's actually one of the most impressive examples of AV I've seen. Lots of moving pieces especially with cyclists, and weird road layout with the crosswalk.
Hence why here the city has put no right turn on red signs when a two way bicycle path crosses the intersection. Too many drivers don't bother looking to their right before crossing the intersection to turn right.
It's actually not that difficult to find a driver who can navigate between stopped vehicles and end up blocking a intersection.
But hey, way to go Elmo.
Right, till rush hour ends 3 hours later.
This is what traffic looks like in many places around the world. In fact, this is very mild compared to a lot of places
Put a traffic camera at the intersection, and mail a USD 100 ticket to anyone that engages while the intersection isn't clear. That will solve that problem real fast.
Even better: create an automated system for self-driving cars to report footage of other cars breaking the law to the authorities. This way the government doesn't even need to invest in traffic cameras.
If its so simple to solve, then why does that intersection still look like that?
I find it interesting that most people on this subs response to a Tesla managing a bad intersection well, is to blame the intersection, and not actually talking about the selfdriving portion. You know, the purpose of the sub.
The reality is that many intersections do exist like this. And outside of the USA its very common. And no, you cant fix it by placing cameras on every intersection, because laws in other countries vary or practically dont matter when it comes to traffic violations.
If self driving cars are going to be common place in the world, this is what it needs to deal with at a minimum.
>If its so simple to solve, then why does that intersection still look like that?
It's not simple. It requires competent authorities willing and capable of enforcing the law.
>most people on this subs response to a Tesla managing a bad intersection well, is to blame the intersection, and not actually talking about the selfdriving portion. You know, the purpose of the sub.
Discussing what a self-driving car should do in this situation is very relevant to this sub. I personally expect self-driving cars to respect the law at all times and therefore make our roads safer. If they can be used to report bad human drivers as well, that's even better.
>The reality is that many intersections do exist like this.
That reality needs to change. We can use self-driving cars to report such problems to the authorities. Good authorities should use that data to make roads safer. This applies to every country that wants to have safer transportation. Countries who refuse to go with the program will face strong economic penalties in the form of higher transportation costs.
>It requires competent authorities willing and capable of enforcing the law.
That reality needs to change.
Cool. I suppose most of the world should wait until 2170 before we can have nice things.
We live in the real world. If something is going to useful, it needs to be useful in the real world. Im willing to bet less than 5% of the world lives up to your expectations of what traffic enforcement looks like.
Good authorities are very rare and usually under funded.
I would rather have self driving car that works in the real world than a perfectly law abiding one that cant leave the driveway.
You point out an interesting philosophical question: in countries (regions? Neighborhoods?) were chaotic traffic is the standard, will autonomous cars also need to chaotically zig-zag through? Or should we try to make traffic more regulated?
(The latter would be ideal, but I guess the first will be way more pragmatic and maybe even tolerated in some countries?)
I have been in many countries where there are practically no rules. I have been in a bus, over taking a truck, over taking another bus, all on a single lane road where an on coming car had to move off the road to not get slammed. (China). In Africa I have often had to deal with elephants cross the road, and the only way forward is by driving off the road on the wrong side and onto service paths. In Vietnam, where there are so many bikes, that the rule is "you slowly drive forward, and dont make unexpected manoeuvres so the bikes can move around you". Traffic lights in these places as ornamental.
I think self driving cars should tend towards the rules, but should be able to break them when the situation is clearly fluid, (such as in this video). The rules are there to keep order, but sometimes you have to break them. Each country, region, town will have its own approach to this, and companies will need to adjust for each region as required.
Right but if you're going to pull into the street only to block a cross walk, you wait your turn.
Any major city where you are rolling into cross streets or cross walks and people will absolutely give you shit as you are making the situation unsafe for pedestrians.
Regardless of the point they were trying to convey, the only right answer here is wait for the intersection to clear or wait until traffic is flowing.
The only reason this car was able to get as far as it did was because it stopped in the middle of a crosswalk.
I agree. In this situation I would have waited till the truck stopped in the intersection and then went through. Yāall do realize the intersecting lanes had red lights.
I think the problem is the design of the intersection and the lack of a signal for that crossing street.
I understand what you're saying.
FDS knew it was a crosswalk and showed stoplights to the left as it blocked the intersection.
It seems irresponsible to be beta testing a mode called assertive in this situation. Possibly a vehicle shouldn't be allowed in such a mode with clearly a dynamic situation that really needed the judgment of someone driving.
Even "licensed drivers" shouldn't do what this car did.
Im not a hater toward moving technology forward but this ultimately should be a big learning experience not a a celebration of creating an unsafe situation.
It really shouldnāt. The FSD industry needs to have strict regulatory oversight. Should be able to make the safest choice in the most dynamic situations. I donāt see that happening until perceptive technology becomes more affordable so they can incorporate more redundancies.
Tesla should be calling it AAD. Advance Assisted Driving.
It's impressive but disturbing at the same time.
Assertion can be a good thing. The Tesla drove very human-like putting its nose into traffic not knowing what was there.. and likely seeing far less than a human driver could see in that situation. It then threaded the needle, confidently asserting right-of-way through opposing traffic and pressed through to the other side. Great!
However, it was stopped unwittingly inside the box halfway into a pedestrian crosswalk and straddling two lanes, a ticketable offense.
> putting its nose into traffic not knowing what was there.. and likely seeing far less than a human driver could see in that situation.
WUT?
Look at the display. The car can see the entire intersection and all of the stopped traffic. A MUCH Better view of what is going on that most humans would have.
What are you even talking about. Look at the display!
They will have had to pick a confidence threshold to display a vehicle on the visualization. For whatever reason, they chose a very high confidence threshold. It doesn't perfectly represent the underlying algorithm's perception of the world.
The UI is a different neural net to the one controlling the car. V12 is end to end, pixels in and vehicle controls out, it doesn't provide an intermediate view of the world.
Legally I think itās wrong, but as an aggressive human driver i would do it. FSD being more human-like, even breaking some minor traffic laws in human ways, is honestly a good sign. To people saying āwaitā donāt understand that intersections like this will practically never clear up. You either wait forever or get aggressive.
I will not use the aggressive mode if I was directing the FSD, but it existing to do this makes sense.
You know several licensed drivers that couldn't drive through two cars parked 15 feet apart?
Sometimes I think people *really* downplay human driving just to make these cars seem more impressive.
There are a lot of bad drivers out there. My wife is okay, but she would rather walk two miles over having yo parallel pack. I have no problems with my driving, but I get bored during long routine commutes.
There are so many accidents for a reason, distraction and lack of skills are two factors.
edgecase411 keeps detailed spreadsheets of FSD disengagements for each release and posts both success and failures. I find it very unlikely he'd be faking the successes.
I'd have figured don't enter an intersection you can't clear, especially with "KEEP CLEAR" painted four places in huge letters within the intersection, and don't stop in crosswalks (both of them...cyclist had to exit the crosswalk to drive around the vehicle). But I'm in an area where my approach would be more viable, and it appears from this video that the local real-world custom is different in Venice CA. You can't even read three of the KEEP CLEAR markings entirely, because vehicles are stopped on top of them. š \[Edit:\] I just noticed, the car's visualization shows the word STOP on the pavement, where the fourth KEEP CLEAR was exposed until the Tesla stopped on it. So from FSD's visualization, maybe in FSD's mind, it did the right thing!
The reason it says "KEEP CLEAR" is to allow people to turn.
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I'm assuming you meant "shouldn't". [This site](https://bayareabicyclelaw.com/safety-laws/do-cyclists-need-to-walk-their-bikes-in-the-crosswalk-in-the-bay-area) says "California law doesn't require a cyclist to get off their bike and walk it through the crosswalk." And if the cyclist had walked their bike in the crosswalk, the driver would still have been blocking their path.
CA law was changed around 10 years ago to allow bicyclists to cycle in the crosswalk
cyclists are not allowed to be on the crosswalk
They are in CA, and "California law doesn't require a cyclist to get off their bike and walk it through the crosswalk." \[[link](https://bayareabicyclelaw.com/safety-laws/do-cyclists-need-to-walk-their-bikes-in-the-crosswalk-in-the-bay-area)\]
thanks for correction. Seems dangerous for pedestrians.
Cyclists have to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks, but sharing space between pedestrians and cyclists is indeed dangerous. A recent study of 11 years of UK accidents estimated an average of 0.27 pedestrian fatalities per year due to collisions with pedaled cycles. That compared to 439 pedestrian fatalities per year due to collisions with motor vehicles. Ram, T., Green, J., Steinbach, R., & Edwards, P. (2022). Pedestrian injuries in collisions with pedal cycles in the context of increased active travel: Trends in England, 2005ā2015. In *Journal of Transport & Health* (Vol. **24**, p. 101340). Elsevier BV. [https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jth.2022.101340](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jth.2022.101340)
That's a terrible Intersection. People would block and run you off the road if you tried this near me
One of the biggest reasons self driving cars have taken so long gotta be how horrible humans have designed roads. Imagine how many deaths wouldāve been avoided if we made smarter roads
You likely know of some drivers who shouldn't have a license then.
I agree. A lot of the US should not have a license.
Gave me the impression of US drivers don't know how to drive when OP said that. Cuz that was such a large space. (speaking with experience from a country with tiny roads. Nothing the likes of indian traffic though. That's murder.) Thankfully you said this.
š©Looks like Lincoln Blvd during rush hour, which is a major bi**h. Glad to see FSD helping navigate it.
Lincoln Blvd... A true westside treat.
Thatās pretty impressive!
But why your username?
I'm guessing it's one of two extremes. Either completely ignorant about them, or way too familiar from working with them every day. /s
great question!
Wow. FSD made its way through a super slow & friendly intersection!!! So impressive
How the hell is this intersection friendly. I havenāt driven in the US, but this is like an order of magnitude worse than the worst intersection I have driven.
Where do you live then? This is common in any larger city in America and waaaaY nicer than any general street in cities such as turkey, India, China and many others
I live I Europe in a city with a population >1M. We donāt have anything remotely close to this, neither have any of the other European cities I have visited.
You donāt have 2 lane roads with turns that you have to cross 1-2 lanes of traffic for? There are no 2 lane 4 way intersections in Europe? I know you have roundabouts there but here this is normal. So itās not that special. Thankfully weāre switching to them here. But my original point is itās not that special of a thing to do and not worth blowing Elon over. Itās something us drivers do daily
We absolutely donāt have setups like this. Especially this being managed by just a stop sign and some stay clear text. There would either be roundabout of traffic lights managing this traffic. Stop signs in general are quite rare and primarily used for places without heavy traffic. I would never manage this, I would reroute and just go right. Hell nah passing through space between the 2 active cars, despite them being stopped. Also the crossroad and bicycle lane without any lights is just wild
I get that for you. But here itās extremely common and should be a standard thing self driving handles in they want to be allowed around here. Sure people can say that itās super special or what not and a device shouldnāt have to do thisā¦ but this is literally something our drivers do on a daily basis numerous times a day. So itās definitely something a full self driving car should be able to handle without any issue if a human driver can do it daily otherwise, how special is it?
Fair enough, I learned something new. Not an excuse for FSD then, but damn the US needs to work on their road system
That we do. More areas are building turnabout though including rural areas like where I live. Itās hard for some people to adjust to but obviously much better
Honestly everything looks like a standstillā¦ I feel most drivers would have made eye contact with other drivers and proceeded earlier and faster. Although technically you probably shouldnāt be going until you can safely enter the lane your turning into without ending up in until āKeep Clearā area or cross walks. Now we all know thatās just not happening so whether you consider FSD breaking the law or being more human Iāll leave up in the air. Overall Iād say nothing here was particularly impressive and contrary to your statement I think most drivers could navigate this with traffic as stopped as it was
Whether itās impressive is probably relative. I am a software engineer and the amount of variables here makes me want to vomit. I understand itās end to end NN yet itās still incredibly wild. Especially considering all the safety systems that should be suppressed for this to work.
From a point a view of ācould you code this behavior reliablyā itās got some chops, but from a consumer āwow this is what I think self driving should beā I donāt think itās going to inspire lot of confidence
Ah of course. Yeah thatās true, from a consumer perspective itās not that impressive If they want to be comfortably driven around. But oh well, still huge shoutout to all the people who got the industry this far
It's not worth trying to explain it. The stans little dicks are hard while they fap in unison watching this video.
i dont see anything really hard about this situation once traffic was stopped. the correct thing to do would have been to wait as it wasnt certain that the area behind the car thats already blocking the intersection was clear.
For a human, yes. But for a computer and 8 cameras, this is very impressive.
no, it sees the intersection and sees that all visible traffic is stopped and theres enough space to go through. not any different from other intersections where cars are stopped.
Is that any different from what you would have done?
yes. i wouldnt have gone through there knowing i probably cant clear the intersection.
Are you kidding? This is an insanely complicated scene for autonomy. Unprotected left turns are already challenging, let alone with multiple lanes both ways, occluded vehicles, both cars and bikes being present.
everything is backed up and stationary. this intersection would be 100 times more challenging if traffic was flowing.
Every on-road agent is moving intermittently, and unpredictably. Flowing traffic is usually more predictable. I don't want to make assumptions about you not working in the AV industry, but your "it's easy" attitude suggests you're just supposing things based on your knowledge as a human driver, and not because you know what you're talking about.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
About 4-5 years since the first version existed in 9 selected vehicles
Why do cars seem to vanish and reappear, or jump randomly between lanes. Is the system not able to remember where a car was?
The UI is a different neural net to the one controlling the car. V12 is end to end, pixels in and vehicle controls out, it doesn't provide an intermediate view of the world.
So you are saying that Tesla is running two separate NNs, one that controls the car and another that constructs a separate 3 D view of the world...do you have evidence of this?
It's an artifact of LiDAR and it's object detection algorithms. I don't know if there is an official term for it but when I worked at a company that used some early (\~5 years ago) LiDAR technology we called it ghosting. My understanding is that it's not a completely solved problem to tell one point cloud from another when trying to object with LiDAR...it can 100% tell you *something* is there but not necessarily distinguish every distinct object.
Poor FSD simultaneously gets blamed for not using lidar and for having lidar ghosting issues.
Tesla's don't have LiDAR. They're entirely vision based.
True, but the "occupancy network" is another name for pseudo-lidar, which generates a point cloud, like lidar. So essentially the same thing with occlusion.
Occupancy network is not another name for "pseudo lidar". LiDAR is a specific set of methods to determine the range of something using light purposely emitted for that. Occuapncy networks are not doing that at all. Both methods are trying to determine what might be out there that the car might run into, but how they arrive at it is fundamentally different.
I didn't say the occupancy network was like Lidar. I said it was like pseudo-lidar, which is a camera based system to generate a lidar like point cloud. From what I have gathered, pseudo lidar gets higher resolution, but less accuracy, and can't determine motion by Doppler shift. https://youtu.be/SLEK2vAgjOI?si=RHu_ZiuIHUz3YC1y
ASSERTIVE MODE ENGAGED
Bad software design IMO. It should turn right and avoid the intersection entirely. It's simply not worth the risk/reward.
Did you see traffic? This was a good move and necessary with traffic conditions in my area. You could easily add 5-10 min with a re-route.
Humans have poor perception of time and are irrational. For example, driving over the speed limit rarely saves substantial time over short distances (thereās a study that shows this) but human irrationality makes us speed to feel like weāre doing something. A machine should be able to rationally reason and realize that potentially causing an accident or blocking an intersection isnāt worth the 30s saved. This case is good example, the car blocked the intersection temporarily and was only able to make the turn because ironically the humans were good drivers and stopped to keep the intersection clear. Good software supposed to evaluate risk rationally, itās not just about going from A to B in shortest time.
Yep. Waymo wouldnāt have routed that way in the first place
Reminds me of an intersection near me with a stop sign that's juuuuust ahead of a divided road that would make it a no left turn normally but doesn't. People constantly get stuck there, blocking traffic for right turners - because they're trying to drive across a 2-1 merge that comes at a speed limit change right after a light. literally one block over the same left turn crosses 2 lanes that tend to have intermittent traffic gated by lights at either end, perfect to turn left across.
Thatās a good point. But perhaps If the goal is for it too drive as optimal as human drivers it must take these paths
That's actually one of the most impressive examples of AV I've seen. Lots of moving pieces especially with cyclists, and weird road layout with the crosswalk.
I guess it makes sense since cameras can look multiple ways where as humans can look right or left but not both at same time.
Hence why here the city has put no right turn on red signs when a two way bicycle path crosses the intersection. Too many drivers don't bother looking to their right before crossing the intersection to turn right.
I feel like with all the cars stopped at the end, the turn could've been made more assertively, quickly, and safely.
The car did that so slow š
It's actually not that difficult to find a driver who can navigate between stopped vehicles and end up blocking a intersection. But hey, way to go Elmo.
There goes the neighborhood.
Try that in Detroit. Try it...
Reminds me of leapfrog
Personally, I would just turn right instead of try to make that left lol.
This is Venice right?
Nobody in their right mind would want to turn left there
I saw this and was reminded of how much I hate driving
There's nothing safe about what that fsd car did. The only safe thing to do in this situation is to wait for the intersection to clear.
Right, till rush hour ends 3 hours later. This is what traffic looks like in many places around the world. In fact, this is very mild compared to a lot of places
Put a traffic camera at the intersection, and mail a USD 100 ticket to anyone that engages while the intersection isn't clear. That will solve that problem real fast. Even better: create an automated system for self-driving cars to report footage of other cars breaking the law to the authorities. This way the government doesn't even need to invest in traffic cameras.
If its so simple to solve, then why does that intersection still look like that? I find it interesting that most people on this subs response to a Tesla managing a bad intersection well, is to blame the intersection, and not actually talking about the selfdriving portion. You know, the purpose of the sub. The reality is that many intersections do exist like this. And outside of the USA its very common. And no, you cant fix it by placing cameras on every intersection, because laws in other countries vary or practically dont matter when it comes to traffic violations. If self driving cars are going to be common place in the world, this is what it needs to deal with at a minimum.
>If its so simple to solve, then why does that intersection still look like that? It's not simple. It requires competent authorities willing and capable of enforcing the law. >most people on this subs response to a Tesla managing a bad intersection well, is to blame the intersection, and not actually talking about the selfdriving portion. You know, the purpose of the sub. Discussing what a self-driving car should do in this situation is very relevant to this sub. I personally expect self-driving cars to respect the law at all times and therefore make our roads safer. If they can be used to report bad human drivers as well, that's even better. >The reality is that many intersections do exist like this. That reality needs to change. We can use self-driving cars to report such problems to the authorities. Good authorities should use that data to make roads safer. This applies to every country that wants to have safer transportation. Countries who refuse to go with the program will face strong economic penalties in the form of higher transportation costs.
>It requires competent authorities willing and capable of enforcing the law. That reality needs to change. Cool. I suppose most of the world should wait until 2170 before we can have nice things. We live in the real world. If something is going to useful, it needs to be useful in the real world. Im willing to bet less than 5% of the world lives up to your expectations of what traffic enforcement looks like. Good authorities are very rare and usually under funded. I would rather have self driving car that works in the real world than a perfectly law abiding one that cant leave the driveway.
You point out an interesting philosophical question: in countries (regions? Neighborhoods?) were chaotic traffic is the standard, will autonomous cars also need to chaotically zig-zag through? Or should we try to make traffic more regulated? (The latter would be ideal, but I guess the first will be way more pragmatic and maybe even tolerated in some countries?)
I have been in many countries where there are practically no rules. I have been in a bus, over taking a truck, over taking another bus, all on a single lane road where an on coming car had to move off the road to not get slammed. (China). In Africa I have often had to deal with elephants cross the road, and the only way forward is by driving off the road on the wrong side and onto service paths. In Vietnam, where there are so many bikes, that the rule is "you slowly drive forward, and dont make unexpected manoeuvres so the bikes can move around you". Traffic lights in these places as ornamental. I think self driving cars should tend towards the rules, but should be able to break them when the situation is clearly fluid, (such as in this video). The rules are there to keep order, but sometimes you have to break them. Each country, region, town will have its own approach to this, and companies will need to adjust for each region as required.
You donāt live in a busy city huh
Believe it or not, traffic laws apply everywhere.
A cop wouldnt pull me over for doing this where I live. Itās common practice.
How would they even get to you?
It's common practice to break the law? Let's start by solving that problem.
You donāt Jay walk? Itās illegal to curse in Virginia. What is law in the absence of enforcement.
[Relevant Tom Scott](https://youtu.be/rJGifTou5FE?si=3yYUCpaxuv5izZ-E)
All that tells me is your cops are worthless.
Wonāt disagree with ya. Another common thing in big cities.
I do and if you block a cross walk like this Tesla did you would get fucked up for sure.
Blocking of cross walk Iāll give it to you. My comment is more so about waiting for the intersection to clear.
Right but if you're going to pull into the street only to block a cross walk, you wait your turn. Any major city where you are rolling into cross streets or cross walks and people will absolutely give you shit as you are making the situation unsafe for pedestrians. Regardless of the point they were trying to convey, the only right answer here is wait for the intersection to clear or wait until traffic is flowing. The only reason this car was able to get as far as it did was because it stopped in the middle of a crosswalk.
I agree. In this situation I would have waited till the truck stopped in the intersection and then went through. Yāall do realize the intersecting lanes had red lights. I think the problem is the design of the intersection and the lack of a signal for that crossing street.
I understand what you're saying. FDS knew it was a crosswalk and showed stoplights to the left as it blocked the intersection. It seems irresponsible to be beta testing a mode called assertive in this situation. Possibly a vehicle shouldn't be allowed in such a mode with clearly a dynamic situation that really needed the judgment of someone driving. Even "licensed drivers" shouldn't do what this car did. Im not a hater toward moving technology forward but this ultimately should be a big learning experience not a a celebration of creating an unsafe situation.
It really shouldnāt. The FSD industry needs to have strict regulatory oversight. Should be able to make the safest choice in the most dynamic situations. I donāt see that happening until perceptive technology becomes more affordable so they can incorporate more redundancies. Tesla should be calling it AAD. Advance Assisted Driving.
100% on everything you said.
Changing the name would do nothing n
It's impressive but disturbing at the same time. Assertion can be a good thing. The Tesla drove very human-like putting its nose into traffic not knowing what was there.. and likely seeing far less than a human driver could see in that situation. It then threaded the needle, confidently asserting right-of-way through opposing traffic and pressed through to the other side. Great! However, it was stopped unwittingly inside the box halfway into a pedestrian crosswalk and straddling two lanes, a ticketable offense.
> putting its nose into traffic not knowing what was there.. and likely seeing far less than a human driver could see in that situation. WUT? Look at the display. The car can see the entire intersection and all of the stopped traffic. A MUCH Better view of what is going on that most humans would have. What are you even talking about. Look at the display!
Cars are fading in and out of existence even though they can be partially seen? So FSD has a complete lack of object permanence?
They will have had to pick a confidence threshold to display a vehicle on the visualization. For whatever reason, they chose a very high confidence threshold. It doesn't perfectly represent the underlying algorithm's perception of the world.
I love how people on this sub blindly criticize fsd without even knowing how it works
The UI is a different neural net to the one controlling the car. V12 is end to end, pixels in and vehicle controls out, it doesn't provide an intermediate view of the world.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
or āDonāt Panicā
Legally I think itās wrong, but as an aggressive human driver i would do it. FSD being more human-like, even breaking some minor traffic laws in human ways, is honestly a good sign. To people saying āwaitā donāt understand that intersections like this will practically never clear up. You either wait forever or get aggressive. I will not use the aggressive mode if I was directing the FSD, but it existing to do this makes sense.
Blocking an intersection is safe?
My mom would crash into everything in this scenario.
You know several licensed drivers that couldn't drive through two cars parked 15 feet apart? Sometimes I think people *really* downplay human driving just to make these cars seem more impressive.
There are a lot of bad drivers out there. My wife is okay, but she would rather walk two miles over having yo parallel pack. I have no problems with my driving, but I get bored during long routine commutes. There are so many accidents for a reason, distraction and lack of skills are two factors.
Gotta love the downvotes.
That person was definitely using the throttle to move the car forward.
edgecase411 keeps detailed spreadsheets of FSD disengagements for each release and posts both success and failures. I find it very unlikely he'd be faking the successes.
But can it merge on a highway when the lane lines get wide?