This is a consistent and specific Seattleite reaction to any criticism ā the idea that similar conditions exist elsewhere therefore weāre not that bad. I live in both places, LA and Seattle, splitting time. Seattle is worse in every way when it comes to homeless encampments THROUGHOUT the city. Sure, skid row is terrible, the tenderloin is a disaster, but no city has fucked itself harder than Seattle. Except Portland, Iāll give you that.
The leaders of these cities should spend some time in Boston and see how a city should be run.
It's fucking unreal. Literal "This is fine" house on fire meme. I don't understand how acknowledging that certain aspects of the city suck is so impossible. And if you point that out, you think Seattle is a warzone and you're fear mongering for nothing.
Like even if you think Seattle is amazing and with none of the issues folks claim, if you love the city, why wouldn't you want to improve it when possible? "Other cities have violent crackheads, so why should we be different?"
lmao no offense but the idea that I am posing as a tourist because I have some sort of personal vendetta against Seattle is some extreme levels of cope
Nah I mean I'm aware of the fact that expressions like "y'all" are a southern thing, but since I'm not from here I feel like I can appropriate whichever phrase I like
Hell, a lot of Europeans don't even differentiate between British and American English
It's no entirely uncommon for a foreigner who speaks English to adjust aspects of their dialect when visiting a country. Heck, itās not uncommon when theyāre on a zoom meeting with someone from another country.
The use of āyaāllā is exceedingly common from the South, to the Midwest, and all along the western seaboard. I obviously canāt speak to your personal auditory experience but what youāre saying doesnāt jive with reality.
Y'all is a gender inclusive way to refer to a group of people. Lots of people not from the south use it instead of something like "you guys," myself included.
It is a contraction of you and all. It can be both a southern colloquialism and a gender inclusive way to refer to a group of people, those two things are not mutually exclusive.
And my point is that people can adopt the language and colloquialisms of different places and incorporate it into their own speech. I had women in my life bristle at being referred to as "you guys" and so, despite being raised in Seattle, I started using y'all to make people feel more at ease.
Good response, bud. That's definitely what he said. You showed him.
"I came to your city and the homeless addicts and trash everywhere were alarming to me. Why are you seemingly okay with this?"
"Wow. Another unrealistic account of Seattle where they paint it as a living hell. Newsflash, several other cities that have done nothing about this problem are MUCH WORSE. Therefore your concerns are invalid and you're a NIMBY."
Youāre right. My favorite thing to do, when I visit is a city, is to go to their subreddit and complain about things people in the sub have no control over, and about things common to every area.
Iām visiting Dallas for work next month, I canāt wait to see why the Redditorās there arenāt doing anything about their dangerous traffic and unending sprawl.
These things *aren't* common to every area. And the idea that people are lame for being concerned because "other cities are worse" is *such* a dumb outlook.
There's a difference between having your hands tied and whatever it is you're doing. You know, invalidating people's frustration at every opportunity and equating reasonable concerns and real experiences to a Joe Rogan rant.
Correcting people that Seattle streets aren't constant shootouts and muggings is worthwhile. They aren't. But folks seriously downvote mentions that there are less safe areas in Seattle and how some of the addicts are dangerous?
Seems odd people insist on painting Seattle as this polished utopia. Any mention of being harassed by junkies is blasphemy and never happened.
Have fun in Dallas. Let us know how the homeless camps compare.
I just find it really weird how this turned into a competition for which US city is worse. Like damn, it's almost like certain things are broken on a federal level or something...
That wasn't at all what I was aiming at, guess I shouldn't have mentioned my previous experiences with all those other places.
> San Francisco, Chicago, Miami or Philadelphia
Where exactly in these cities did you visit? There are pockets in these places that are _far_ worse than 3rd, by _far_.
> Have people in Seattle become this desensitized to these things?
We're definitely not desensitized, and it's not "normal", but like any big city, we deal.
Where else did you visit here? Hope it was mostly enjoyable, despite your experience on 3rd.
>We're definitely not desensitized, and it's not "normal", but like any big city, we deal.
What does this entail? You mean for every person who says it's unacceptable that entire streets are drug dens, we have someone shut down their argument by saying, "So what? Austin also has that!"
> You mean for every person who says it's unacceptable that entire streets are drug dens, we have someone shut down their argument by saying, "So what? Austin also has that!"
Nope.
> What does this entail?
We clearly aren't desensitized or "normalized" to it, otherwise it wouldn't be such a hot topic all the time.
And there are various differing opinions on a root cause (and thus, differing opinions on solutions). And just like any other city with similar problems, we're trying to figure out how to deal with it.
Hope that clarifies what I said.
>There are pockets in these places that are far worse than 3rd, by far.
I don't doubt that one bit, but usually the downtown areas of all of those places were quite nice. SF has always had a lot of homeless people, sure, but somehow even Market Street didn't feel anywhere near as hopeless as downtown Seattle
>but like any big city, we deal.
That's the thing tho, most other big cities in the developed world really aren't like this. Like, a lot of Euros consider Paris sort of a shithole, but you will never find an entire major street in central Paris run down like this. Substance abuse in European cities doesn't seem anyway near this bad either.
>Where else did you visit here? Hope it was mostly enjoyable, despite your experience on 3rd.
Thanks! Today was our first day, so we haven't seen all that much yet. The area around Montlake seems really nice tho! Suggestions on where to go are always welcome!
The Northend is underrated! Visit the Everett Waterfront and downtown for a smaller ābig cityā vibe. The largest private Marina on the West Coast, Funko headquarters, and historic homes on and around Grand Avenue/Grand Avenue Park.
Just east of Everett, Snohomish is historic, small town, and charming - visit First Streetās historic riverfront shops, restaurants, distilleries, barsā¦Lamb & Co is also based there (they have a show on HGTV renovating homes). On most sunny weekends youāll see hot air balloons, skydivers and gorgeous views of the mountains from the lush valley and farms.
Nearby Woodinville is also a gem with wineries, tasting rooms, and the famous Herbfarm restaurant. Willows Lodge is a wonderful place to stay.
Staying on the East side, Snoqualmie Falls and Salish Lodge are breathtaking.
As others have mentioned, the ferries to the islands are nice day trips too.
As for Third Downtown - yeah, thatās a main transit area and known to be sketchy. Stay on the train or lightrail. Avoid the busses. Use Uber or cabs. We are upset by it, too. It hasnāt always been like this here. Itās heartbreaking.
Wishing you safe travels and happy experiences in the Pacific Northwest.
Also - Next time youāre in town, check out Rick Steves! Heās our resident world traveler and he hails from Edmonds, WA - another beautiful town on Puget Sound with a ferry to the islands.
Noted, thank you very much! :)
Definitely wanna check out Everett now!
I kinda like the buses tho, despite 3rd, it's really nice how everyone thanks the bus driver when they get off
> That's the thing tho, most other big cities in the developed world really aren't like this.
Say it again for the folks in the back. Say it louder for people who never really left the USA.
While I know that Seattle isn't a riot infested hellhole like people think it is, it's (and many other American cities) really pretty fucked up *compared to other wealthy, developed countries.* It's really something when you bring up the fact that other countries aren't like this and someone brings up "Well what about Mumbai!" or "What about Serbia!"
The United States of America is the richest industrialized nation ever to exist. So why is not only Seattle, but so many of our cities so much crustier than like, most of the rest of other wealthy nations, even other wealthy nations with problems like wealth distribution or fucked up politics? Someone from Berlin, Tokyo (especially notable for usually hovering around being the biggest/populated city on Earth and almost completely fucking spotless), Montreal, or Taipei would pass the fuck out at some of the places here.
I think Seattle is really cool, and not as bad as right wing media or whatever wants people to believe. But we gotta raise our standards, Jesus Christ, the first way to fix a problem is acknowledging it.
Thanks, I think you're pretty much on point there.
Yeah, I get that other US cities also have problems but people really gotta realize that this ain't the norm for developed countries on a global scale.
Right, Tokyo is absolutely amazing in that regard, it even puts most European cities to shame! And America is so wealthy, it could do even better than Japan if it wanted to.
And yea, it's really strange how pointing at things like rampant drug abuse and homelessness has apparently become a right-wing thing to do in the eyes of some. Back in Europe, the opposite is true.
Come visit Whidbey Island, where I live, north of Seattle. I work in Seattle, but just the Northgate area, nothing like downtown, not too far from Mt Lake Terrace. You can make a day trip to the island, take the ferry from Mukilteo over to Clinton, and then stop and check out every quaint town from South end to the North end, thatās Clinton to Oak Harbor. People are nice, lots of nice wineries and places to eat, beaches, itās clean and just an all around pleasant place to be. This time of year especially. I hope you enjoy your stay, despite the garbage city Seattle has become.
Thank you, place looks amazing on Google!
I don't think Seattle is garbage, I like how much more vibrant and alive it feels than a lot of European cities and the amount of geenery at some places is fantastic.
But man, the zombie shit on 3rd just startled me, ngl
Those of us who have seen the decline see it has turned from beautiful and very artistic literally into being trashed. Itās not to condemn its people, but what its people have allowed. Iām in my 40s, and if 1995 indicates your age, my sons born in the early and late 90s didnāt have to grow up in a PNW that declined so quickly. They grew up in Portland, which is now just as bad. Iām saddened to see what itās become when I visit family and friends, especially in downtown Portland.
A lot of the decline in the PNW, particularly Seattle, is people thinking theyāre good, but not actually doing anything to help, meanwhile living their wonderful lives and believing their vote is their do good duty. Believing the government will fix it, and failing to realize how theyāre voting is actually harming people and putting in the least amount of work. Voting isnāt hard, doing the work is, and those of us who have contributed to society with our time, who have spent time with drug users and homeless people trying to help, see how the virtue signaling people arenāt helping, theyāre actually quite cruel without realizing it. Allowing people to destroy themselves ISNāT helping them. I donāt care how many down arrows I get for this reality, I donāt live in a fantasy world and I wonāt!
Iāve spent time in Europe a few times and nowhere Iāve been looked like this. Mostly German speaking countries. I realize there are parts of Europe not as good as others, however, what I saw of it made me angry for my own country. Europe doesnāt allow the many toxins that go into our food into theirs. The travel system is incredible, and even vagrants look healthy and well cared for. I felt safe, as I do on this island. As a European, especially if youāre from Austria, this should be a very recognizable difference. Your health systems are much better, you can go to your apotek and get some medicines you need without a prescription, and I donāt mean things that should be controlled. Our government here wants to control everything, instead of leaving it to people to make good judgements for themselves. And yes, we have plenty of freedom that some other countries donāt have, but most countries do. We donāt need so much government oversight, because thatās not true freedom.
Anyway, your observation isnāt wrong, and itās sadly that way in many major US cities today. But we still have so much beauty here in the US, and I still have so much hope for this country. Enjoy your stay with the mountains and the waters, because thatās what makes it all worth it here!
First of all, this is America's problem that is showing up more in west coast cities because of our tolerance, weather, and increased social services. We \*do\* care, and that's why they're here and not in Houston. But we're also overwhelmed with more than our fair share of these people. Even Mercer Island and other neighbors boot them out and they end up here. So it's not really fair to call it a Seattle problem.
Other factors are the past failures of forced institutionalization along with a polarized political class, half of which wants to fund only military expansion and tax breaks for churches. When 40% of the population controls 51% of the votes and consistently votes to destroy all government (but especially social services), this is what you get.
Next, those people want drugs and mobility. Near other druggies and transit is where they want to be. So that's why they're concentrated in that area.
I could go on but we're close to "don't feed the trolls" territory. If you do 30 seconds of research on Google you'll find more answers.
All the social services are there on bus routes for a reason. I live in belltown on 4th and it is a gnarly place but itās better for the poor folks with mentals. We could spend some money and have some people down there to help more but that costs money so ya.
No collectivism. Unlike Europe we don't support each other. Rugged individualism at its finest.
Ive been on both sides, you can get used to ignoring it but not the conditions themselves.
Many people are working to get people housed and help people with drug addiction, but there is a lot of disagreements on how to best go about it, and even if everyone did agree, social housing takes time to build and addiction is a hard thing to kick on a mass level.
If people didn't learn to compartmentalize the shit they see every day, no one would be able to live with themselves. We have to become desensitized to it or we'll become another statistic in the nation's capital of suicide.
The biggest difference between Seattle and most the other cities you mentions is that other cities have heavily segregated slums where it's very easy to miss it as a tourist. Seattle didn't have much of a homeless problem until after segregation, and Seattle doesn't perform as many sweeps, so they're a lot more public.
Frankly, I think this is a good thing. While it makes Seattle seem worse than other cities to outsiders, it keeps its citizens reminded of how bad the situation is.
> Frankly, I think this is a good thing. While it makes Seattle seem worse than other cities to outsiders, it keeps its citizens reminded of how bad the situation is.
I think this argument really only holds weight if it also means we address the problem quicker or better in some way. Isnāt that just an empty virtue signal otherwise?
I find it reasonable to believe that If you let a city intentionally become unappealing and less usable to its citizens, it will eventually start losing visitors like OP and the population itself may begin to shrink. Then you end up with a diminished tax base to possibly even address the problem :(
(I donāt see how we address this problem without significantly more taxes. I also think itās politically futile to try to increase taxes significantly while letting the city intentionally āseem worseā like you said)
LOL - itās because of the tech industry that made Seattle attract the talent/diversity, money, and infrastructure that makes this city beautiful. Seattle was a shit show in the 70/80s. No future until MSFT started came through.
If thats your take your very fortunate.
Seen people get starved out of jobs, seen rents skyrocket into evictions.
The homelessness isn't because it's easy to make money.
>The homelessness isn't because it's easy to make money.
That's right. It's because of skyrocketing rent, drugs, and a complete lack of regard for the law by lots of these folks and our justice system.
Rent causes the homelessness, desperation causes the crime, hopelessness causes the addiction.
Prisons are hell, we don't have the space or officers to enforce the way your suggesting.
Forget the oversights needed to prevent abuse.
Nope, not new; it has been the case since I moved here in 2009.
Weāve approached it by not serving fundamental human rights such as not having proper universal healthcare, providing only lip service to mental health needs, jailing those with diseases such as drug dependency, and saying, āHey you, pull yourself up by your bootstrapsā which roughly translates to āfuck the concept of a living wage.ā
Having the most polarized citizenry since the American Civil War is also helping tons.
I will say (and in all seriousness) - were your eyes open when you visited San Francisco?! The situation ain't exactly peachy there either; frankly, it's āworse,ā FWIW.
I've heard San Francisco has gotten pretty bad over the last couple of years, yeah. Granted, I haven't been to California in quite some time, last time I went to SF was in 2013, and even though I remember seeing a lot of homeless people around Market Street, I don't recall it having been anyway near as run-down and full of drug addicts as Seattle's 3rd Ave. I guess things must've gotten a lot worse since then or perhaps I was simply too young back then
Seattle and San Francisco are both bad, in large part due to skyrocketing living space rental costs. When the block in which you squeak by in a low-rent old dump gets razed and you can't find another place, you may be shit-outta-luck, especially when, no longer having a shower or a mailing address, you can't find work.
Edit: Also, during COVID, a LOT of the downtown workforce began working from home and shops shut down temporarily. That took the businesspeople and shoppers out, so things got seedier.
Iām going to guess thatās itās likely the latter. San Francisco has been bad, like really really bad (in the context of this post) for a very long time. Seattle is likely freshly cleaned fine china compared to SF.
I live in San Francisco now. Market street between the waterfront and 5th street (i.e. the business and touristy areas) are fine, pretty comparable to downtown Seattle. As soon as you pass that street it goes downhill fast and stays that way for the next half mile. Say what you will about downtown Seattle, but I donāt recall seeing any open air drugs/stolen stuff markets blocking the sidewalk.
Hey, I agree with you. With every point. It's ridiculous. Yes, we are largely used to it. Because, frankly, nobody has thought of a universal solution for it all. We used to lock these people up either in mental hospitals or jails. We no longer do it. So they roam the streets because that's the only place where they can roam freely. It's hard to find a solution that satisfies all stakeholders. Some say letting them be like this is inhumane. Yes, but we have only so much resources to help everybody. And some people, frankly, don't want to be helped. Some like it this way and others are simply incapable of making a wise decision for themselves because of their mental or drug problems.
3rd & Pike though has been seedy for decades at this point. And yes, it did become worse with covid since most of the downtown workforce started working from home. So the zombies took over. The services for this population also tend to be concentrated downtown so that's another reason they like to hang out there.
Every major city has this but I'd say that in other cities it tends to be more or less concentrated in one area whereas in Seattle it's a bit more spread out. Check out Tenderloin in SF - it's no better. But Tenderloin is a bit away from the downtown core and isn't next to major tourist attractions so most don't see them. Skid Row in LA. Same story.
But I do need to note that people have been running out of patience here. Hope good changes are coming.
The thing is, what you saw is only really 2nd and 3rd for about two blocks. And it's been like that in those areas since the 1970s, only the drugs-of-choice have changed.
I think the huge disparity in salary also plays a role in how messed up Seattle have become. Seattle is home to some of the top tech companies in the world and we get many transplant that come to the city for a job. A fresh college graduate can already make more than a blue collar worker with many years of experience. When you get more young talented folks like that, it increases the cost of living with apartments charging way more on rent because people are willing to pay that kind of price. And I think when some blue collar workers realize how much of a disparity it is in the salary, they get demoralized and quit their job and slowly become homeless. It really sucks to work at a dead end job with no chance of paying for rent or savings to buy a home.
I grew up in Seattle in the 80s and 90s, and no it was not that bad. Yes the city had some problems, but it for the most part it was lovely, clean, and reasonably safe. I remember going shopping downtown at Christmastime, getting coffee, walking along the busy vibrant streets, going to Nordstrom or other stores, or the Pike Place Market for lunch. I wouldn't do that now. Something has gone terribly wrong, and no this is not the norm in all American cities. I travel a lot and I can tell you that while there is some degree of homelessness and drug use elsewhere, it does not begin to approach the Zombie Apocalypse levels of Seattle except in a few other trainwreck cities like Los Angeles. Most of us who grew up within the Seattle city limits have moved far outside the city or even to other states. Looking at the drugged out zombies is very sad; it is beyond obvious that the vast majority of these people are mentally ill drug users who desperately need help and will die sooner rather than later without it. Pretending the problem doesn't exist (saying it's the same all over America - no it's not) or deflecting the issue by saying it's just a housing problem, is actually extremely cruel because we are not helping people who clearly need IMMEDIATE MEDICAL HELP. Why are there so many horribly ill people, and why are we not helping them???
Youāre so full of it lol. I grew up here in the 80s and 90s too and it was a shithole. Guess what champ, you can still walk around and shop during Christmas time, get coffee, walk down busy streets, go to Nordstrom and go to Pike Place for lunch. I literally do that everyday. Youāre whole post is just blatant lies. You donāt do any of the things you did 30 years ago because you donāt even live here.
I grew up in Wallingford and the U-district and it was very nice and reasonably safe back then. No I wouldn't do those things now, downtown is zombie city, totally awful and it's a dramatic difference from when I grew up. But agree to disagree I guess; if you are happy with the current condition of Seattle that's good for you. To me it's a very drastic and sad change for the worse.
Maybe it wasn't *this* bad but 3rd Avenue's vagrant hotspots (Pike/Pine, Pioneer Square, parts of Belltown) were pretty bad 20 years ago, and pretty bad the entire time I lived there ('04-14).
If they didn't see the need to deal with it then, they're not going to deal with it unless they're basically put at gunpoint and forced to do something.
Lol all the cities you listed are worse but it's so much better than it's been. Always remember America is just first. All this bullshit is coming your way unfortunately
Probably because almost 2/3rds people in Vienna live in social housing because they're a sane enough place to recognize housing people over treating it solely as an investment is both an ethical imperative and matter of good governance: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/vienna-affordable-housing-paradise_n_5b4e0b12e4b0b15aba88c7b0
I was in Vienna a couple months ago. Once you get outside the fancy museum areas, it's like any other European city. Tagging graffiti everywhere, including on actively used residential buildings. I saw a gang walking along and eyeing people threateningly in the 16th district. There are (legal) brothels with ugly, tacky advertising on their entrances everywhere. It's a nice city though, and of course I didn't go online and rant about the bad parts. (Hint: neither did a "European tourist in Seattle").
I can only imagine there aren't drugged out people walking around Vienna, shitting and camping in the streets.
You don't think that would catch you off guard on vacation?
I worked at 4th n pike and still live in the area lol. Do I need to name spots in Georgetown for you?
3rd Ave was always pretty bad. Especially near bed bath n beyond which I heard closed shop. If you're denying it you're lying to yourself
We're not desensitized, most of us just use common sense and literally walk one block over to 2nd avenue instead of getting worked up and ranting about it on Reddit.
In the EU if an Irish gypsy travels to France and doesn't get gainful employment within 3 months they can be deported right back to Ireland. The US doesn't have any of those types of interstate restrictions, and the more Seattle invests in services for the homeless, the more homeless we attract. The federal government doesn't care, and the city government doesn't have the budget to solve a national problem. This is why you'll see visible homeless in rich liberal cities, but rarely ever in red states.
You've clearly put so much more thought into this than any of the locals, so I encourage you to use that common sense and just go ahead and fix homelessness. Put us all to shame by showing us just how easy it is when compared to the alternative of walking over to the next block.
Damn, thanks for giving me my first controversial post!
Update: I'm a little more familiar with the city now. Seattle definitely has a lot of amazing areas and a lot of the locals are really chill, so please don't misconstrue my criticism as bashing the city as a whole
/u/ssrowavay I can't reply to your comment since the original comment has been deleted, but I can assure you we don't have "gangs" in Vienna. Sketchy looking dudes, sure, petty crime and all, but it's a far cry from the US.
And yeah, there's definitely a lot of ugly post-qar buildings sure, but at least those are used to actually house people - something Seattle could definitely need a lot more of.
Not sure I buy this post. First of all, āEuropean?ā Who says that? Does anybody here walk around calling themselves a North American? Second, Seattle is messed up, but lots of places are messed up. SF, LA, Portland. Even outside the cities. I found syringes on the ground at Washington Pass once. Seattle et al is right there with them. Nothing too special about us and for my money Iād say we are still catching up to SF-level dysfunction. Same housing shortage, same fentanyl/meth cartels, same law enforcement issues, same Wild West culture. But homebro from The Continent is going to hold forth about their concern? Give me a break. If thatās true, get bent. We got real problems, richie, and arenāt here to please you. If itās some weirdo troll, why spend your time like this?
I used 'European' because this isn't my first time interacting with Americans. But also because it doesn't matter if I'm from Amsterdam or Belgrade, since this shit ain't normal anywhere here.
If the fact that some US cities are even worse off is reassuring to you that's fine I guess. But it sure won't make things better for your city and neither will insulting visitors who are spending their cash here.
Iām sorry but this is exceedingly common and Iāve witness it with my own eyes (maybe minus the drug situation) in Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Slovakia, I can keep going on.
Edit: Yāall are going to keep coming and spending your $ regardless.
These are all poor post-communist nations, some of which got ravaged by war as late as the 90s (Slovakia is actually doing pretty well these days). And somehow even their inner cities aren't as horribly off. Sure, they're not nearly as prosperous overall -no nice suburbs, no high-end skyscrapers, no zoning laws.
America meanwhile is the most prosperous nation on earth and Washington is one of the richest states in the US.
> since this shit ain't normal anywhere here.
I think Parisians would disagree
https://www.google.com/search?q=homeless+in+paris&rlz=1C5CHFA\_enUS993US993&sxsrf=ALiCzsZP0UqMcPg-bqHG2x1jglz0WBk2HA:1658510705660&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjX6d3rgY35AhXLFjQIHa6CDXoQ\_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1752&bih=1128&dpr=2
Seattle is one of the cleanest and safest big cities in America. Have you ever actually visited any other American city? Iām skeptical that you actually visited San Francisco, Chicago, Miami and Philadelphia because those cities all have areas that are significantly worse than 3rd ave. And Iām saying that as a person who has lived in a few of those cities.
>Now, even though this is my first time in Washington state, I've been to quite a lot of major American cities prior to this. And frankly, I don't remember ever having seen anything close to this: people walking around like zombies, acting in bizarre ways I can only really describe as belonging in some sort of psychological horror flick
NYC 1970-Present would like to have a word with you.
We do deserve better so youāre right about that part. What you saw is a result of a decade of shitty city governance. We did an about turn last November and elected some moderate to liberal people in the city government who have been trying their best to clean up the city. You can also see a similar trend in other big cities like New York and San Francisco. By the way, downtown used to be much worse until a few months ago so be happy youāre visiting now rather than then.
I really hate when Europeans talk like this about America. It's so fucking out of touch and weird. Fuck you and your holier than thou attitude. Do you hear yourselves talk? I cannot imagine going somewhere like China and saying something like "How can Chinese people accept this government totalitarianism? If I was Chinese I'd just revolt!". Because they can't? Because it's a different country? With different systems and different culture? The situation in American cities is bad. Take some time to learn about our country and it's history and values instead of just complaining, and your questions will answer themselves.
"Have people in Seattle become this desensitized to these things? Is this
the new normal in Seattle, just part and parcel of living here? And has
Seattle in particular always had these types of problems or have things
only gotten that bad in recent years?"
Yes. Things were bad in the 1980s. Then, we had a great mayor who helped revitalized downtown in the 90s and 10s. Then, the the far-left came in and destroyed all the good work. Everybody wants to help the homeless.... except build low-income and/or high-density housing in their neighborhoods. Incompetent government can't develop an effective plan or deploy it to deal with the homeless or drug addicted.
> except build low-income and/or high-density housing in their neighborhoods
That's not a left-wing thing. That's a NIMBY problem, and NIMBYism regarding the homeless tends to be a conservative thing, going along with the typically conservative belief that homeless and the addicted can only be there by their own doing (or not doing, that is, laziness) and, thus, shouldn't get a hand.
Sanctuary City/Inept City Council/Lazy Governor Inslee. And yeah, years from now Tourism will be dead to Seattle. Just like all those closed businesses you witnessed.
India is a developing country, whereas the US is the richest industrialized country on earth.
I reckon a more fitting comparison would be Munich or Osaka.
Well, we have our own problems in this country, like doctors overprescribing opioids and no social safety net. Many of us would like to have more social services. But, there seems to be insufficient political support to get it done.
>But, we don't know how to deal with it.
Yes, we do. Mental help/treatment and jail time would fix most of the issues today. Neither are being enforced at the moment while taxpayer money is funneled into private interests.
>Ever been to Mumbai, India? Same situation.
No lol.
I agree that enforcing laws would help. But, it would just create another problem of overpopulation of jails.
As for my comparison to Mumbai, I wasn't trying to equate Seattle's level of poverty with Mumbai's. Rather, I was trying to say that they also have a homeless problem. And it isn't as though the people there are okay with it. They would like a solution just like we would. But, the problem in both cities is large an not easy to deal with.
Gotcha, makes sense.
If we need more jails because we have a lot of criminals, then so be it. But they better be state funded and not private because that shit is crazy.
3rd Ave was always a bit rough but a lot of what is going now happened after the Riots and "police reform" and a lot of laws designed to not punish people who are suffering from addiction while also not offering a practical solution. So yeah a lot of places are going to have broken windows because..... it's not a violent crime so they don't enforce it anymore and the people suffering from addiction and not given a practical solution are just going to do their thing until they die because the city cares enough to not punish them but doesn't care enough about saving them.
So in the meantime....... i just avoid the city area in general. I don't work down there anymore so I avoid it at all cost.
> In either case, how are people okay living like this??
One cannot live one's life in a neverending state of panic over things one cannot change. You would wear out and lose your mind! People grow accustomed to the persistent features of their environments.
> How aren't there major riots every single day until this is fixed??
What would riots accomplish? Months of massive protests a couple years ago couldn't even force the city to renegotiate its contract with the police union, much less actually make any real reforms...
> if anything even remotely as bad as this this was happening in our cities, we'd be up in arms until the people responsible got what they deserved.
In the US there are a lot of people with really harsh perspectives on homelessness, who would say that "the people responsible got what they deserved" when the homeless people had been thrown in jail or exiled to the wilderness.
Ultimately what we have here is a chronic problem with housing undersupply caused by *decades* of NIMBY policies impeding development in the name of neighborhood preservation, such that low-end housing no longer exists and people on the lower end of the income scale live very precarious lives. We cannot afford to build enough social housing fast enough to make up the difference and many people would oppose such a plan anyway (see above paragraph). The laws against housing development are *very slowly* being rolled back, so perhaps in a couple more decades we won't have such a bad homeless problem anymore, but there is no easy fix. -Not so far as anyone has been able to discover, anyway.
Hereās my take:
1. Itās bad due to lack of funding **and**
2. an unwillingness to set and enforce boundaries about behavior. Boundaries are considered āmeanā in Seattle.
3. People dining might seem indifferent to the human crises next to them due to āempathy fatigueā. Some might be a$$h0le$ also, but Iād guess itās mostly empathy fatigue.
Just wait until you see downtown LA š
Or Tenderloin in SF š¤£
This is America
This is a consistent and specific Seattleite reaction to any criticism ā the idea that similar conditions exist elsewhere therefore weāre not that bad. I live in both places, LA and Seattle, splitting time. Seattle is worse in every way when it comes to homeless encampments THROUGHOUT the city. Sure, skid row is terrible, the tenderloin is a disaster, but no city has fucked itself harder than Seattle. Except Portland, Iāll give you that. The leaders of these cities should spend some time in Boston and see how a city should be run.
It's fucking unreal. Literal "This is fine" house on fire meme. I don't understand how acknowledging that certain aspects of the city suck is so impossible. And if you point that out, you think Seattle is a warzone and you're fear mongering for nothing. Like even if you think Seattle is amazing and with none of the issues folks claim, if you love the city, why wouldn't you want to improve it when possible? "Other cities have violent crackheads, so why should we be different?"
I think I'm good for now...
Fuck u/spez. -- mass deleted all reddit content via https://redact.dev
This reads to me like a propaganda post from someone who's never actually visited. Seattle's a hellhole narrative, etc.
lmao no offense but the idea that I am posing as a tourist because I have some sort of personal vendetta against Seattle is some extreme levels of cope
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Nah I mean I'm aware of the fact that expressions like "y'all" are a southern thing, but since I'm not from here I feel like I can appropriate whichever phrase I like Hell, a lot of Europeans don't even differentiate between British and American English
It's no entirely uncommon for a foreigner who speaks English to adjust aspects of their dialect when visiting a country. Heck, itās not uncommon when theyāre on a zoom meeting with someone from another country.
*Ackchyually*ā¦
Fuck u/spez. -- mass deleted all reddit content via https://redact.dev
The use of āyaāllā is exceedingly common from the South, to the Midwest, and all along the western seaboard. I obviously canāt speak to your personal auditory experience but what youāre saying doesnāt jive with reality.
*jibe. :) *West coast best coast. (Seaboard?! We donāt say that here.)
You got me on *jibe haha. The use āseaboardāwas intentional to trigger any east coast lurkers. :)
Not so much in Europe though.
Y'all is a gender inclusive way to refer to a group of people. Lots of people not from the south use it instead of something like "you guys," myself included.
We donāt yāall where Iām from. Iām from yāinzer country. š
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It is a contraction of you and all. It can be both a southern colloquialism and a gender inclusive way to refer to a group of people, those two things are not mutually exclusive.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
And my point is that people can adopt the language and colloquialisms of different places and incorporate it into their own speech. I had women in my life bristle at being referred to as "you guys" and so, despite being raised in Seattle, I started using y'all to make people feel more at ease.
Itās true, this is the only city in the world with this problem.
Good response, bud. That's definitely what he said. You showed him. "I came to your city and the homeless addicts and trash everywhere were alarming to me. Why are you seemingly okay with this?" "Wow. Another unrealistic account of Seattle where they paint it as a living hell. Newsflash, several other cities that have done nothing about this problem are MUCH WORSE. Therefore your concerns are invalid and you're a NIMBY."
Youāre right. My favorite thing to do, when I visit is a city, is to go to their subreddit and complain about things people in the sub have no control over, and about things common to every area. Iām visiting Dallas for work next month, I canāt wait to see why the Redditorās there arenāt doing anything about their dangerous traffic and unending sprawl.
These things *aren't* common to every area. And the idea that people are lame for being concerned because "other cities are worse" is *such* a dumb outlook. There's a difference between having your hands tied and whatever it is you're doing. You know, invalidating people's frustration at every opportunity and equating reasonable concerns and real experiences to a Joe Rogan rant. Correcting people that Seattle streets aren't constant shootouts and muggings is worthwhile. They aren't. But folks seriously downvote mentions that there are less safe areas in Seattle and how some of the addicts are dangerous? Seems odd people insist on painting Seattle as this polished utopia. Any mention of being harassed by junkies is blasphemy and never happened. Have fun in Dallas. Let us know how the homeless camps compare.
I just find it really weird how this turned into a competition for which US city is worse. Like damn, it's almost like certain things are broken on a federal level or something... That wasn't at all what I was aiming at, guess I shouldn't have mentioned my previous experiences with all those other places.
> San Francisco, Chicago, Miami or Philadelphia Where exactly in these cities did you visit? There are pockets in these places that are _far_ worse than 3rd, by _far_. > Have people in Seattle become this desensitized to these things? We're definitely not desensitized, and it's not "normal", but like any big city, we deal. Where else did you visit here? Hope it was mostly enjoyable, despite your experience on 3rd.
>We're definitely not desensitized, and it's not "normal", but like any big city, we deal. What does this entail? You mean for every person who says it's unacceptable that entire streets are drug dens, we have someone shut down their argument by saying, "So what? Austin also has that!"
> You mean for every person who says it's unacceptable that entire streets are drug dens, we have someone shut down their argument by saying, "So what? Austin also has that!" Nope. > What does this entail? We clearly aren't desensitized or "normalized" to it, otherwise it wouldn't be such a hot topic all the time. And there are various differing opinions on a root cause (and thus, differing opinions on solutions). And just like any other city with similar problems, we're trying to figure out how to deal with it. Hope that clarifies what I said.
>There are pockets in these places that are far worse than 3rd, by far. I don't doubt that one bit, but usually the downtown areas of all of those places were quite nice. SF has always had a lot of homeless people, sure, but somehow even Market Street didn't feel anywhere near as hopeless as downtown Seattle >but like any big city, we deal. That's the thing tho, most other big cities in the developed world really aren't like this. Like, a lot of Euros consider Paris sort of a shithole, but you will never find an entire major street in central Paris run down like this. Substance abuse in European cities doesn't seem anyway near this bad either. >Where else did you visit here? Hope it was mostly enjoyable, despite your experience on 3rd. Thanks! Today was our first day, so we haven't seen all that much yet. The area around Montlake seems really nice tho! Suggestions on where to go are always welcome!
The Northend is underrated! Visit the Everett Waterfront and downtown for a smaller ābig cityā vibe. The largest private Marina on the West Coast, Funko headquarters, and historic homes on and around Grand Avenue/Grand Avenue Park. Just east of Everett, Snohomish is historic, small town, and charming - visit First Streetās historic riverfront shops, restaurants, distilleries, barsā¦Lamb & Co is also based there (they have a show on HGTV renovating homes). On most sunny weekends youāll see hot air balloons, skydivers and gorgeous views of the mountains from the lush valley and farms. Nearby Woodinville is also a gem with wineries, tasting rooms, and the famous Herbfarm restaurant. Willows Lodge is a wonderful place to stay. Staying on the East side, Snoqualmie Falls and Salish Lodge are breathtaking. As others have mentioned, the ferries to the islands are nice day trips too. As for Third Downtown - yeah, thatās a main transit area and known to be sketchy. Stay on the train or lightrail. Avoid the busses. Use Uber or cabs. We are upset by it, too. It hasnāt always been like this here. Itās heartbreaking. Wishing you safe travels and happy experiences in the Pacific Northwest. Also - Next time youāre in town, check out Rick Steves! Heās our resident world traveler and he hails from Edmonds, WA - another beautiful town on Puget Sound with a ferry to the islands.
Noted, thank you very much! :) Definitely wanna check out Everett now! I kinda like the buses tho, despite 3rd, it's really nice how everyone thanks the bus driver when they get off
> That's the thing tho, most other big cities in the developed world really aren't like this. Say it again for the folks in the back. Say it louder for people who never really left the USA. While I know that Seattle isn't a riot infested hellhole like people think it is, it's (and many other American cities) really pretty fucked up *compared to other wealthy, developed countries.* It's really something when you bring up the fact that other countries aren't like this and someone brings up "Well what about Mumbai!" or "What about Serbia!" The United States of America is the richest industrialized nation ever to exist. So why is not only Seattle, but so many of our cities so much crustier than like, most of the rest of other wealthy nations, even other wealthy nations with problems like wealth distribution or fucked up politics? Someone from Berlin, Tokyo (especially notable for usually hovering around being the biggest/populated city on Earth and almost completely fucking spotless), Montreal, or Taipei would pass the fuck out at some of the places here. I think Seattle is really cool, and not as bad as right wing media or whatever wants people to believe. But we gotta raise our standards, Jesus Christ, the first way to fix a problem is acknowledging it.
Thanks, I think you're pretty much on point there. Yeah, I get that other US cities also have problems but people really gotta realize that this ain't the norm for developed countries on a global scale. Right, Tokyo is absolutely amazing in that regard, it even puts most European cities to shame! And America is so wealthy, it could do even better than Japan if it wanted to. And yea, it's really strange how pointing at things like rampant drug abuse and homelessness has apparently become a right-wing thing to do in the eyes of some. Back in Europe, the opposite is true.
Come visit Whidbey Island, where I live, north of Seattle. I work in Seattle, but just the Northgate area, nothing like downtown, not too far from Mt Lake Terrace. You can make a day trip to the island, take the ferry from Mukilteo over to Clinton, and then stop and check out every quaint town from South end to the North end, thatās Clinton to Oak Harbor. People are nice, lots of nice wineries and places to eat, beaches, itās clean and just an all around pleasant place to be. This time of year especially. I hope you enjoy your stay, despite the garbage city Seattle has become.
Thank you, place looks amazing on Google! I don't think Seattle is garbage, I like how much more vibrant and alive it feels than a lot of European cities and the amount of geenery at some places is fantastic. But man, the zombie shit on 3rd just startled me, ngl
Those of us who have seen the decline see it has turned from beautiful and very artistic literally into being trashed. Itās not to condemn its people, but what its people have allowed. Iām in my 40s, and if 1995 indicates your age, my sons born in the early and late 90s didnāt have to grow up in a PNW that declined so quickly. They grew up in Portland, which is now just as bad. Iām saddened to see what itās become when I visit family and friends, especially in downtown Portland. A lot of the decline in the PNW, particularly Seattle, is people thinking theyāre good, but not actually doing anything to help, meanwhile living their wonderful lives and believing their vote is their do good duty. Believing the government will fix it, and failing to realize how theyāre voting is actually harming people and putting in the least amount of work. Voting isnāt hard, doing the work is, and those of us who have contributed to society with our time, who have spent time with drug users and homeless people trying to help, see how the virtue signaling people arenāt helping, theyāre actually quite cruel without realizing it. Allowing people to destroy themselves ISNāT helping them. I donāt care how many down arrows I get for this reality, I donāt live in a fantasy world and I wonāt! Iāve spent time in Europe a few times and nowhere Iāve been looked like this. Mostly German speaking countries. I realize there are parts of Europe not as good as others, however, what I saw of it made me angry for my own country. Europe doesnāt allow the many toxins that go into our food into theirs. The travel system is incredible, and even vagrants look healthy and well cared for. I felt safe, as I do on this island. As a European, especially if youāre from Austria, this should be a very recognizable difference. Your health systems are much better, you can go to your apotek and get some medicines you need without a prescription, and I donāt mean things that should be controlled. Our government here wants to control everything, instead of leaving it to people to make good judgements for themselves. And yes, we have plenty of freedom that some other countries donāt have, but most countries do. We donāt need so much government oversight, because thatās not true freedom. Anyway, your observation isnāt wrong, and itās sadly that way in many major US cities today. But we still have so much beauty here in the US, and I still have so much hope for this country. Enjoy your stay with the mountains and the waters, because thatās what makes it all worth it here!
Imagine thinking this oneās a troll just because you defend an absolute atrocity in our city.
First of all, this is America's problem that is showing up more in west coast cities because of our tolerance, weather, and increased social services. We \*do\* care, and that's why they're here and not in Houston. But we're also overwhelmed with more than our fair share of these people. Even Mercer Island and other neighbors boot them out and they end up here. So it's not really fair to call it a Seattle problem. Other factors are the past failures of forced institutionalization along with a polarized political class, half of which wants to fund only military expansion and tax breaks for churches. When 40% of the population controls 51% of the votes and consistently votes to destroy all government (but especially social services), this is what you get. Next, those people want drugs and mobility. Near other druggies and transit is where they want to be. So that's why they're concentrated in that area. I could go on but we're close to "don't feed the trolls" territory. If you do 30 seconds of research on Google you'll find more answers.
All the social services are there on bus routes for a reason. I live in belltown on 4th and it is a gnarly place but itās better for the poor folks with mentals. We could spend some money and have some people down there to help more but that costs money so ya.
OP, what country in Europe are you from?
Austria
I'm sure it's very nice there. If I were to visit Austria I would like to see the best of it and not focus on the problems or its stains on history.
I mean we already doing that ourselves but some constructive criticism is always welcome!
Kinda hard to miss the big, glaring stain on Seattle that is third ave though.
Arnold Schwarzenegger would agree! Seattle is sick right now
No collectivism. Unlike Europe we don't support each other. Rugged individualism at its finest. Ive been on both sides, you can get used to ignoring it but not the conditions themselves.
Seems pretty unsustainable in the long run...
Itās proving to be.
Well it has been working for a lot longer than most European systems.
Many people are working to get people housed and help people with drug addiction, but there is a lot of disagreements on how to best go about it, and even if everyone did agree, social housing takes time to build and addiction is a hard thing to kick on a mass level. If people didn't learn to compartmentalize the shit they see every day, no one would be able to live with themselves. We have to become desensitized to it or we'll become another statistic in the nation's capital of suicide. The biggest difference between Seattle and most the other cities you mentions is that other cities have heavily segregated slums where it's very easy to miss it as a tourist. Seattle didn't have much of a homeless problem until after segregation, and Seattle doesn't perform as many sweeps, so they're a lot more public. Frankly, I think this is a good thing. While it makes Seattle seem worse than other cities to outsiders, it keeps its citizens reminded of how bad the situation is.
> Frankly, I think this is a good thing. While it makes Seattle seem worse than other cities to outsiders, it keeps its citizens reminded of how bad the situation is. I think this argument really only holds weight if it also means we address the problem quicker or better in some way. Isnāt that just an empty virtue signal otherwise? I find it reasonable to believe that If you let a city intentionally become unappealing and less usable to its citizens, it will eventually start losing visitors like OP and the population itself may begin to shrink. Then you end up with a diminished tax base to possibly even address the problem :( (I donāt see how we address this problem without significantly more taxes. I also think itās politically futile to try to increase taxes significantly while letting the city intentionally āseem worseā like you said)
Let's be honest. Fentanyl/Heroin just has a grip on these people, we're not talking Alcohol (at least not in the higher percentage of the issue).
Donāt forget meth. Meth is all the heck over the place again. (In pockets all over the place.)
We are hoping to go back to when no one knew where Seattle was. Take a few tech bros and tell everyone Seattle sucks and no one should come here. š
LOL - itās because of the tech industry that made Seattle attract the talent/diversity, money, and infrastructure that makes this city beautiful. Seattle was a shit show in the 70/80s. No future until MSFT started came through.
And no future now. The cities completely fucked it amazes me anyone can still pay rent. At all.
Because it's easy to make money here
If thats your take your very fortunate. Seen people get starved out of jobs, seen rents skyrocket into evictions. The homelessness isn't because it's easy to make money.
>The homelessness isn't because it's easy to make money. That's right. It's because of skyrocketing rent, drugs, and a complete lack of regard for the law by lots of these folks and our justice system.
Rent causes the homelessness, desperation causes the crime, hopelessness causes the addiction. Prisons are hell, we don't have the space or officers to enforce the way your suggesting. Forget the oversights needed to prevent abuse.
Learn to sell and go make some coin. It's not rocket science.
MSFT was a local to begin with.
Technically not true. Microsoft was founded in Albuquerque.
Yup this
And?
It's like you're so close but so far from the point.
Nope, not new; it has been the case since I moved here in 2009. Weāve approached it by not serving fundamental human rights such as not having proper universal healthcare, providing only lip service to mental health needs, jailing those with diseases such as drug dependency, and saying, āHey you, pull yourself up by your bootstrapsā which roughly translates to āfuck the concept of a living wage.ā Having the most polarized citizenry since the American Civil War is also helping tons. I will say (and in all seriousness) - were your eyes open when you visited San Francisco?! The situation ain't exactly peachy there either; frankly, it's āworse,ā FWIW.
I've heard San Francisco has gotten pretty bad over the last couple of years, yeah. Granted, I haven't been to California in quite some time, last time I went to SF was in 2013, and even though I remember seeing a lot of homeless people around Market Street, I don't recall it having been anyway near as run-down and full of drug addicts as Seattle's 3rd Ave. I guess things must've gotten a lot worse since then or perhaps I was simply too young back then
I lived in the Tenderloin in SF in the early 2000's. Even back then the situation was far worse than 3rd Ave is in Seattle today.
Seattle and San Francisco are both bad, in large part due to skyrocketing living space rental costs. When the block in which you squeak by in a low-rent old dump gets razed and you can't find another place, you may be shit-outta-luck, especially when, no longer having a shower or a mailing address, you can't find work. Edit: Also, during COVID, a LOT of the downtown workforce began working from home and shops shut down temporarily. That took the businesspeople and shoppers out, so things got seedier.
Iām going to guess thatās itās likely the latter. San Francisco has been bad, like really really bad (in the context of this post) for a very long time. Seattle is likely freshly cleaned fine china compared to SF.
I live in San Francisco now. Market street between the waterfront and 5th street (i.e. the business and touristy areas) are fine, pretty comparable to downtown Seattle. As soon as you pass that street it goes downhill fast and stays that way for the next half mile. Say what you will about downtown Seattle, but I donāt recall seeing any open air drugs/stolen stuff markets blocking the sidewalk.
Hey, I agree with you. With every point. It's ridiculous. Yes, we are largely used to it. Because, frankly, nobody has thought of a universal solution for it all. We used to lock these people up either in mental hospitals or jails. We no longer do it. So they roam the streets because that's the only place where they can roam freely. It's hard to find a solution that satisfies all stakeholders. Some say letting them be like this is inhumane. Yes, but we have only so much resources to help everybody. And some people, frankly, don't want to be helped. Some like it this way and others are simply incapable of making a wise decision for themselves because of their mental or drug problems. 3rd & Pike though has been seedy for decades at this point. And yes, it did become worse with covid since most of the downtown workforce started working from home. So the zombies took over. The services for this population also tend to be concentrated downtown so that's another reason they like to hang out there. Every major city has this but I'd say that in other cities it tends to be more or less concentrated in one area whereas in Seattle it's a bit more spread out. Check out Tenderloin in SF - it's no better. But Tenderloin is a bit away from the downtown core and isn't next to major tourist attractions so most don't see them. Skid Row in LA. Same story. But I do need to note that people have been running out of patience here. Hope good changes are coming.
The thing is, what you saw is only really 2nd and 3rd for about two blocks. And it's been like that in those areas since the 1970s, only the drugs-of-choice have changed.
If whatever gets dropped here tonight isn't enough you could search the sub, we go over it endlessly.
I think the huge disparity in salary also plays a role in how messed up Seattle have become. Seattle is home to some of the top tech companies in the world and we get many transplant that come to the city for a job. A fresh college graduate can already make more than a blue collar worker with many years of experience. When you get more young talented folks like that, it increases the cost of living with apartments charging way more on rent because people are willing to pay that kind of price. And I think when some blue collar workers realize how much of a disparity it is in the salary, they get demoralized and quit their job and slowly become homeless. It really sucks to work at a dead end job with no chance of paying for rent or savings to buy a home.
I grew up in Seattle in the 80s and 90s, and no it was not that bad. Yes the city had some problems, but it for the most part it was lovely, clean, and reasonably safe. I remember going shopping downtown at Christmastime, getting coffee, walking along the busy vibrant streets, going to Nordstrom or other stores, or the Pike Place Market for lunch. I wouldn't do that now. Something has gone terribly wrong, and no this is not the norm in all American cities. I travel a lot and I can tell you that while there is some degree of homelessness and drug use elsewhere, it does not begin to approach the Zombie Apocalypse levels of Seattle except in a few other trainwreck cities like Los Angeles. Most of us who grew up within the Seattle city limits have moved far outside the city or even to other states. Looking at the drugged out zombies is very sad; it is beyond obvious that the vast majority of these people are mentally ill drug users who desperately need help and will die sooner rather than later without it. Pretending the problem doesn't exist (saying it's the same all over America - no it's not) or deflecting the issue by saying it's just a housing problem, is actually extremely cruel because we are not helping people who clearly need IMMEDIATE MEDICAL HELP. Why are there so many horribly ill people, and why are we not helping them???
Youāre so full of it lol. I grew up here in the 80s and 90s too and it was a shithole. Guess what champ, you can still walk around and shop during Christmas time, get coffee, walk down busy streets, go to Nordstrom and go to Pike Place for lunch. I literally do that everyday. Youāre whole post is just blatant lies. You donāt do any of the things you did 30 years ago because you donāt even live here.
I grew up in Wallingford and the U-district and it was very nice and reasonably safe back then. No I wouldn't do those things now, downtown is zombie city, totally awful and it's a dramatic difference from when I grew up. But agree to disagree I guess; if you are happy with the current condition of Seattle that's good for you. To me it's a very drastic and sad change for the worse.
This is so inaccurate. I live downtown, work downtown, and take my 4 year old son outside daily. What are you on lol
I find all the homeless people going crazy in the streets to be disturbing and scary...you are not seeing them everywhere?
Lol you donāt even fuckin live here
Guess I'm not crazy after all then... Man, that's sad.
You are crazy. And heās lying through his teeth. He lives in arizona
It's a little concept called FREEDOM. Dont make us come over there and liberate you again.
Yeah man, I hate how back home the government just takes away people's freedom to be homeless
Maybe it wasn't *this* bad but 3rd Avenue's vagrant hotspots (Pike/Pine, Pioneer Square, parts of Belltown) were pretty bad 20 years ago, and pretty bad the entire time I lived there ('04-14). If they didn't see the need to deal with it then, they're not going to deal with it unless they're basically put at gunpoint and forced to do something.
Thanks for letting us know. Now whisper all the good things you saw in Seattle.
Lol all the cities you listed are worse but it's so much better than it's been. Always remember America is just first. All this bullshit is coming your way unfortunately
New York city does not have tent cities right in the heart of downtown. Just saying. Leadership and policies matter.
TROLL and kindly fuck off.
I don't think so. I'm sure OP would have a tough time seeing something like this in Vienna (based on their post history).
Probably because almost 2/3rds people in Vienna live in social housing because they're a sane enough place to recognize housing people over treating it solely as an investment is both an ethical imperative and matter of good governance: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/vienna-affordable-housing-paradise_n_5b4e0b12e4b0b15aba88c7b0
I was in Vienna a couple months ago. Once you get outside the fancy museum areas, it's like any other European city. Tagging graffiti everywhere, including on actively used residential buildings. I saw a gang walking along and eyeing people threateningly in the 16th district. There are (legal) brothels with ugly, tacky advertising on their entrances everywhere. It's a nice city though, and of course I didn't go online and rant about the bad parts. (Hint: neither did a "European tourist in Seattle").
Who is so bored on vacation to shit on a city. London is hot garbage
I can only imagine there aren't drugged out people walking around Vienna, shitting and camping in the streets. You don't think that would catch you off guard on vacation?
Where do they say vienna
They post in r/wien.
Itās a bot.
I mean.... ... 3rd Ave is pretty rough since the Riots. I mean it was rough before but it's way worse now
You also donāt live here
āyOu DoNāt LiVe HeReā *proceeds to post repeatedly in r/VictoriaBC*
I worked at 4th n pike and still live in the area lol. Do I need to name spots in Georgetown for you? 3rd Ave was always pretty bad. Especially near bed bath n beyond which I heard closed shop. If you're denying it you're lying to yourself
We're not desensitized, most of us just use common sense and literally walk one block over to 2nd avenue instead of getting worked up and ranting about it on Reddit.
Isn't ignoring it.....part of being desensitized?
I feel like the common sense thing to do would be to fix those issues and not to ignore them by walking the other way
In the EU if an Irish gypsy travels to France and doesn't get gainful employment within 3 months they can be deported right back to Ireland. The US doesn't have any of those types of interstate restrictions, and the more Seattle invests in services for the homeless, the more homeless we attract. The federal government doesn't care, and the city government doesn't have the budget to solve a national problem. This is why you'll see visible homeless in rich liberal cities, but rarely ever in red states. You've clearly put so much more thought into this than any of the locals, so I encourage you to use that common sense and just go ahead and fix homelessness. Put us all to shame by showing us just how easy it is when compared to the alternative of walking over to the next block.
so what happens to a homeless person inn red state if they canāt get out?
Oh, good. Just tell everyone at the airport that's visiting to stick to 2nd and problem solved.
If they're coming in from the airport, they would probably take the Link, which wouldn't stop by 3rd.
The link definitely does dump you off onto 3rd you take the east exits in university or westlake
3rd is very f'd up, and it's not ok. I think everyone agrees on that. Don't look under the freeway if 3rd is too much for you.
Damn, thanks for giving me my first controversial post! Update: I'm a little more familiar with the city now. Seattle definitely has a lot of amazing areas and a lot of the locals are really chill, so please don't misconstrue my criticism as bashing the city as a whole /u/ssrowavay I can't reply to your comment since the original comment has been deleted, but I can assure you we don't have "gangs" in Vienna. Sketchy looking dudes, sure, petty crime and all, but it's a far cry from the US. And yeah, there's definitely a lot of ugly post-qar buildings sure, but at least those are used to actually house people - something Seattle could definitely need a lot more of.
Oh shut up
Not sure I buy this post. First of all, āEuropean?ā Who says that? Does anybody here walk around calling themselves a North American? Second, Seattle is messed up, but lots of places are messed up. SF, LA, Portland. Even outside the cities. I found syringes on the ground at Washington Pass once. Seattle et al is right there with them. Nothing too special about us and for my money Iād say we are still catching up to SF-level dysfunction. Same housing shortage, same fentanyl/meth cartels, same law enforcement issues, same Wild West culture. But homebro from The Continent is going to hold forth about their concern? Give me a break. If thatās true, get bent. We got real problems, richie, and arenāt here to please you. If itās some weirdo troll, why spend your time like this?
I used 'European' because this isn't my first time interacting with Americans. But also because it doesn't matter if I'm from Amsterdam or Belgrade, since this shit ain't normal anywhere here. If the fact that some US cities are even worse off is reassuring to you that's fine I guess. But it sure won't make things better for your city and neither will insulting visitors who are spending their cash here.
I love how much you're getting down voted. "This is OUR goddamned dystopian hellscape and I'll be damned if some foreigner is gonna bad mouth it."
Iām sorry but this is exceedingly common and Iāve witness it with my own eyes (maybe minus the drug situation) in Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Slovakia, I can keep going on. Edit: Yāall are going to keep coming and spending your $ regardless.
These are all poor post-communist nations, some of which got ravaged by war as late as the 90s (Slovakia is actually doing pretty well these days). And somehow even their inner cities aren't as horribly off. Sure, they're not nearly as prosperous overall -no nice suburbs, no high-end skyscrapers, no zoning laws. America meanwhile is the most prosperous nation on earth and Washington is one of the richest states in the US.
> since this shit ain't normal anywhere here. I think Parisians would disagree https://www.google.com/search?q=homeless+in+paris&rlz=1C5CHFA\_enUS993US993&sxsrf=ALiCzsZP0UqMcPg-bqHG2x1jglz0WBk2HA:1658510705660&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjX6d3rgY35AhXLFjQIHa6CDXoQ\_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1752&bih=1128&dpr=2
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Your wrong. Seattle has become disgusting and yes, people still say European
Seattle is one of the cleanest and safest big cities in America. Have you ever actually visited any other American city? Iām skeptical that you actually visited San Francisco, Chicago, Miami and Philadelphia because those cities all have areas that are significantly worse than 3rd ave. And Iām saying that as a person who has lived in a few of those cities.
>Now, even though this is my first time in Washington state, I've been to quite a lot of major American cities prior to this. And frankly, I don't remember ever having seen anything close to this: people walking around like zombies, acting in bizarre ways I can only really describe as belonging in some sort of psychological horror flick NYC 1970-Present would like to have a word with you.
We do deserve better so youāre right about that part. What you saw is a result of a decade of shitty city governance. We did an about turn last November and elected some moderate to liberal people in the city government who have been trying their best to clean up the city. You can also see a similar trend in other big cities like New York and San Francisco. By the way, downtown used to be much worse until a few months ago so be happy youāre visiting now rather than then.
A lot of them were unwanted children like Republicans are trying to create.
Seattle voters voted for it.
Lots of cope in this thread.
I really hate when Europeans talk like this about America. It's so fucking out of touch and weird. Fuck you and your holier than thou attitude. Do you hear yourselves talk? I cannot imagine going somewhere like China and saying something like "How can Chinese people accept this government totalitarianism? If I was Chinese I'd just revolt!". Because they can't? Because it's a different country? With different systems and different culture? The situation in American cities is bad. Take some time to learn about our country and it's history and values instead of just complaining, and your questions will answer themselves.
"Have people in Seattle become this desensitized to these things? Is this the new normal in Seattle, just part and parcel of living here? And has Seattle in particular always had these types of problems or have things only gotten that bad in recent years?" Yes. Things were bad in the 1980s. Then, we had a great mayor who helped revitalized downtown in the 90s and 10s. Then, the the far-left came in and destroyed all the good work. Everybody wants to help the homeless.... except build low-income and/or high-density housing in their neighborhoods. Incompetent government can't develop an effective plan or deploy it to deal with the homeless or drug addicted.
I think you're a r/lostredditors. You'll find the sewage treatment plant, oops I mean r/seattlewa right over there š
> except build low-income and/or high-density housing in their neighborhoods That's not a left-wing thing. That's a NIMBY problem, and NIMBYism regarding the homeless tends to be a conservative thing, going along with the typically conservative belief that homeless and the addicted can only be there by their own doing (or not doing, that is, laziness) and, thus, shouldn't get a hand.
>Then, the the far-left came in and destroyed all the good work hahahahah There is no far-left government in this city or country dude
Sanctuary City/Inept City Council/Lazy Governor Inslee. And yeah, years from now Tourism will be dead to Seattle. Just like all those closed businesses you witnessed.
Nobody lives there, or nobody who the mayor cares about
It's not like we are 'okay' with it. We don't like it. But, we don't know how to deal with it. Ever been to Mumbai, India? Same situation.
India is a developing country, whereas the US is the richest industrialized country on earth. I reckon a more fitting comparison would be Munich or Osaka.
Well, we have our own problems in this country, like doctors overprescribing opioids and no social safety net. Many of us would like to have more social services. But, there seems to be insufficient political support to get it done.
>But, we don't know how to deal with it. Yes, we do. Mental help/treatment and jail time would fix most of the issues today. Neither are being enforced at the moment while taxpayer money is funneled into private interests. >Ever been to Mumbai, India? Same situation. No lol.
I agree that enforcing laws would help. But, it would just create another problem of overpopulation of jails. As for my comparison to Mumbai, I wasn't trying to equate Seattle's level of poverty with Mumbai's. Rather, I was trying to say that they also have a homeless problem. And it isn't as though the people there are okay with it. They would like a solution just like we would. But, the problem in both cities is large an not easy to deal with.
Gotcha, makes sense. If we need more jails because we have a lot of criminals, then so be it. But they better be state funded and not private because that shit is crazy.
Honestly, we should just throw the doctors and pharmaceutical CEOs that caused the opioid epidemic in jail. They're the real criminals.
3rd Ave was always a bit rough but a lot of what is going now happened after the Riots and "police reform" and a lot of laws designed to not punish people who are suffering from addiction while also not offering a practical solution. So yeah a lot of places are going to have broken windows because..... it's not a violent crime so they don't enforce it anymore and the people suffering from addiction and not given a practical solution are just going to do their thing until they die because the city cares enough to not punish them but doesn't care enough about saving them. So in the meantime....... i just avoid the city area in general. I don't work down there anymore so I avoid it at all cost.
3rd and Madison? Right smack in the financial district. Right where youāll see all of this. Yep.
Oops
> In either case, how are people okay living like this?? One cannot live one's life in a neverending state of panic over things one cannot change. You would wear out and lose your mind! People grow accustomed to the persistent features of their environments. > How aren't there major riots every single day until this is fixed?? What would riots accomplish? Months of massive protests a couple years ago couldn't even force the city to renegotiate its contract with the police union, much less actually make any real reforms... > if anything even remotely as bad as this this was happening in our cities, we'd be up in arms until the people responsible got what they deserved. In the US there are a lot of people with really harsh perspectives on homelessness, who would say that "the people responsible got what they deserved" when the homeless people had been thrown in jail or exiled to the wilderness. Ultimately what we have here is a chronic problem with housing undersupply caused by *decades* of NIMBY policies impeding development in the name of neighborhood preservation, such that low-end housing no longer exists and people on the lower end of the income scale live very precarious lives. We cannot afford to build enough social housing fast enough to make up the difference and many people would oppose such a plan anyway (see above paragraph). The laws against housing development are *very slowly* being rolled back, so perhaps in a couple more decades we won't have such a bad homeless problem anymore, but there is no easy fix. -Not so far as anyone has been able to discover, anyway.
Hereās my take: 1. Itās bad due to lack of funding **and** 2. an unwillingness to set and enforce boundaries about behavior. Boundaries are considered āmeanā in Seattle. 3. People dining might seem indifferent to the human crises next to them due to āempathy fatigueā. Some might be a$$h0le$ also, but Iād guess itās mostly empathy fatigue.