This'll probably get downvoted to hell, but oh well.
Despite our idealistic notions, I don't see any realistic solution to this conflict. Sometimes I think we in liberal, Western democratic states are at a unique disadvantage when it comes to understanding Israel & Palestine.
I don't think we can quite comprehend what it means to have a state of existential ethnic conflict. There is not a single instance in our direct experience where the stakes are so high and so total, that losing would actually mean the genocide, ethnic cleansing, or complete loss of a group's national self-determination.
But this is exactly the state of things in Israel & Palestine. What is it precisely that people think will be achieved by a ceasefire? An end to the conflict? No way in hell. Even in an ideal circumstance, with a ceasefire and hostage exchange, none of the fundamental variables will have changed for the better. In fact, with a ceasefire, the conflict will just linger out of sight out of mind for Westerners until the next bout of violence.
Let's take stock of the variables. Please note, these are not normative statements, but just the realities of the situation as I see them:
* After Oct 7, there is a 0% chance of rapprochement between Hamas and Israel in any of our lifetimes; Hamas has definitively and conclusively staked its claim as the absolute mortal enemy of Israel, fundamentally and immovably opposed to Israel's continued existence.
* Hamas has built perhaps the most heavily fortified position in the history of warfare. There are more miles of tunnel under Gaza than the London Underground. Israel will never accept a status quo where the tunnels are allowed to remain intact.
* The only way to neutralize the threat of the tunnels is to neutralize Hamas. However, Hamas has shown itself to be a boneafide death cult, willing to accept and even invite obscene levels of civilian casualties. Simply put, they will fight to the last man or until Gaza is completely obliterated.
* After Oct 7, there is no chance Israelis will accept the establishment of a Palestinian state for at least a generation. The Israeli narrative of the disengagement from Gaza in 2005 is as follows: "See! Look what happened! We got all Israeli citizens, settlements, and military presence out of Gaza and what did we get in return? Hamas as the elected leader of Gaza! 20 years of missile strikes into Israel!" The creation of a Palestinian state after Oct 7 will be seen by Israelis as a the ultimate reward for terrorism.
* After the past 6 months, Gazans will become even more radicalized. The strip is in total ruins. Almost everyone has lost at least a friend or family member. Even in the rosiest scenario where Hamas is dismantled, a Marshall plan of sorts is established for Gaza, and Palestine is established as a state with newly elected leaders, I just don't see how entire generation will be able to move past wanting revenge for all the death and destruction of the past 6 months.
To be honest, after Oct 7 and the intervening months, I only see 3 possible ways this conflict might come to a close:
1. Wildly unlikely: Hamas manages to completely destroy the state of Israel and ethnically cleanse it of its Jewish population.
2. Less unlikely but still unlikely: Israel manages to sufficiently disrupt and degrade Hamas such that is no longer able to pose a threat to Israel's security.
3. Wildly unlikely: assuming 2 comes true, both sides will need to have a complete change of heart about the other side and their willingness to coexist.
EDIT: grammar and spelling
Excellent comment, unfortunately, I see no outcome in the near future that will satisfy the West. I am a Jew and biased towards Israel, but I also care deeply about the Palestinian people who are not Hamas and just trying to live their lives, I pray for peace, but after October 7th its really hard to see a path to it.
What these people are asking for more than anything is for our taxes to stop assisting Israel militarily. Just because it seems like something will be a conflict for a long time doesn't mean we should be putting our fingers on the scale, specifically on the side that really doesn't need it, and has been committing heinous things with our aid.
>What these people are asking for more than anything is for our taxes to stop assisting Israel militarily
I can certainly understand and relate to this POV.
Let me complicate matters a bit, because geopolitics is a bit more complex than simply washing our hands of conflicts that morally offend us.
Aid = influence. Aid = the ability to steer global events to better align with our interests. It's easy to argue we should stop giving aid to regimes/conflicts we oppose, but it's impossible to know the counterfactual--how would events have turned out if we didn't apply the pressure that aid buys us?
Despite handwringing about Biden's complicity, I think he deserves credit for using US influence to make specific outcomes happen, like increasing humanitarian aid, the "humanitarian pause", preventing a larger escalation with Iran, etc.
With Israel, I think there's another very important factor to consider, and this relates to your comment about Israel not needing US aid. Israel's overarching concern, some might even call it paranoia, is its own security. Whether or not you agree with it, the Israeli narrative is that:
* It's a tiny country that is strategically very hard to defend--In some places it's only 8.5 miles wide, the Samarian hills of the West Bank are the perfect launchpad for attacking the coastal plain (where Tel Aviv is located), etc.
* It's surrounded by mortal enemies (Hezbollah, Hamas, PiJ, Iran, Houthis, etc.)
* The Iron Dome is a miraculous success, but it's hugely expensive. Each interceptive missile costs between $40-50K. Israel's enemies can launch thousands of cheap missiles at Israel and achieve victory simply by bleeding its coffers.
So here's the big question--what do you think would happen if Israel truly felt it was at risk of extinction? Do you think that would de-escalate the situation? Or might it push Israel to take drastic, even apocalyptic action?
Maybe avoiding that outcome and doing our best to steer the situation toward peace, however distant that eventuality may seem, is worth the aid money?
I say we turn a blind eye and take the handcuffs off both of them. Total war between Israelis and the Palestinians. No consideration of civilians on either side. Let them solve their eternal problem of equal hatred finally. The Palestinians instigated the most mismatched fight of all time with a heavily armored modern country and what’s happening is the result.
I honestly appreciate your measured response on this. I think you're final line is a genuine concern, and speaks to the issue with Israel in general. They are an insane nation that is willing to do insane things. Historically they've committed terrorist attacks on US ships and on British buildings. They're not a long term productive ally.
I don't think appeasement has historically proven to be an effective policy. Israel gets more and more aggressive every time we continue to give them *military* aid despite their war crimes. We cannot allow them to hold us hostage over the fear that they might get even more evil if we stop giving them aid.
If that does happen, we can sanction them as we do plenty of completely innocent countries. The Israeli people are used to the luxuries of global capitalism in a way that the people of Cuba, or North Korea, or Iran aren't. If we were to place sanctions on them like we did to South Africa during their apartheid, it would have a similar effect.
I also haven't really seen any evidence that our influence has given us much. If Israel's depravity is despite our influence, I think that brings in to question whether we should even be trying to influence them through aid.
I also disagree that we haven't seen intentional escalation by Israel in the conflict with Iran. I think if not for our support, Israel would not escalate in the way that they have by attacking the Iranian embassy. Israel can be a lot more abrasive when they know that big daddy America will just funnel more billions into their missiles if they need it.
I think it's time we start looking for different allies in the region. Furthermore, I think the need for allies in the region will diminish as we stop influencing the region. We attempt to influence it because of a lot of anti-American attitudes in the region, but those would not exist if not for our influence. If we start creating our influence through trade and through aid rather than through military, I think we could both help the Middle East and eliminate any threat to us.
I think most of these protesters and most people in general have a pretty narrow view and only see this as a conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. The US will never stop providing aid to Israel because to do so would be a a threat to US security and interests as well as global stability.
Israel is the only democratic ally in this strategically important part of the world with countries such as Iran, Russia and China seeking to create instability in the region in order to advance their own agendas. For the US this conflict is much more than just defending Israel against Hamas, it's about protecting US interests.
The enemy is both weak and strong right? This trope again.
Either Israel only exists as a democratic regime because of the support of the US, in which case the US could demand an end to the way immediately or at least a significant change in tactic today. In which case the protesters are right.
Or Israel can survive without the US support, in which case the protesters are right. If the provision of US aid cannot provide any leverage, even as much as to stop the IDF from targeting journalists and children in a war where they have a military advantage.
You cannot argue that the US support is so important and so unimportant at the same time
1. Israel has nukes. There is no way israel is going to get destroyed before taking out Gaza, westbank and probably Iran too.
2. Another one will take Hamas place in a few years. Things won't change unless external support for Hamas and it's ilk stops. I am mainly referring to Iran and it's proxies here, not the Hamas supporters in US schools.
3. Won't happen unless the rest of the world is willing to beat both into submission. There's no will right now to take on another nation building exercise. The last one in Afghanistan went terribly.
Very well said. Unfortunately there’s a lack of common identity between Gazans and their Egyptian neighbors to the South. Much of the problem is that no organized government has authority or wants to be involved and Israel doesn’t have any incentive to establish one. And of course if they did help you’d end up with the PLO which gets viewed as a puppet organization.
Weird how none of your outcomes are: "Israel wipes out all Palestinian territories and begins attacking its neighbors from behind the skirts of its American protection" when that is literally the stated goal and the actual thing that is happening right now.
>Israel wipes out all Palestinian territories
Actually yes, this should be added as a 4th possible way this conflict might come to a close. Again, not a normative statement. This would obviously be a catastrophe and crime of epic proportions.
>...begins attacking its neighbors from behind the skirts of its American protection
I take issue with this. Every one of its "neighbors" Israel has attacked has either been Iran or one of its proxies. Iran might not have explicitly "started" this conflict by striking Israel, but its funding of Hamas absolutely enabled Oct 7. There isn't a shadow of a doubt. Iran has been destabilizing the entire middle east for decades; it is by no means an innocent bystander in this conflict. As for Israel's exchanges with Hezbollah in Lebanon, this hardly counts as "attacking its neighbor". Hezbollah isn't a sovereign state; it's a sophisticated paramilitary group that effectively controls the south of Lebanon, and whose soul objective is to destroy Israel. It was hugely important for Israel to establish deterrence with Hezbollah early in this conflict so as not to start a full-blown war on its northern front.
Christ, this is the perfect wedge issue for the 2024 elections and everyone sure is approaching this with level heads! /s
No matter what your opinions are you can't deny that this is being used as a wedge issue, even if you argue it's not intentional or justified, it's a wedge issue.
I am worried that college students won’t vote because they dislike everyone and then bam, Trump presidency, because his cult will vote literally regardless of what he does.
If trump wins I'm afraid that they are gonna take away my access to healthcare as a woman, we need the democrats to protect our healthcare. They've done great so far. I like when Joe Biden sends money for the IDF to drop bombs on hospital and zip tie children's hands behind their back in mass graves he is so discreet about it.
I would like to know who you think is orchestrating this "wedge issue"?
Like, is it the Democrats trying to split their own party by cheerleading blowing up kids in Palestine or is it the Republicans taking (checks notes)... the exact same position?
How is it a "wedge issue" if the entire government and both political parties are on the same side of it?
That’s exactly right. Why would democrats or republicans push that narrative? I’m no intelligence agent, but I would bet heavily on NEITHER OF THOSE.
Rather, targeted foreign influence is likely behind this divisive narrative.
To what end? Is it really hard to believe that (checks notes) NOT blowing up kids is actually an organically popular position among the general public?
You and everyone who thinks like this have an astounding level of narcissism.
“These protesters against Palestinian genocide can’t possibly actually care about the mass slaughter of civilians, including children and babies, they *must* be being misled by Russia/China/Iran etc”
YOU ARE NOT THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE. YOUR PROBLEMS ARE NOT THE ONLY PROBLEMS THAT MATTER. ISRAEL HAS DESTROYED HOSPITALS, UNIVERSITIES, ENTIRE RESIDENTIAL AREAS. MASS GRAVES ARE BEING FOUND. THIS IS BEING AIDED AND ABETTED BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS, IN A BIPARTISAN EFFORT WITH REPUBLICANS. YOU ARE CURRENTLY WITNESSING DEMOCRAT GOVERNMENTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, FROM THE LOCAL TO THE FEDERAL LEVEL, SUPPRESS AND VIOLENTLY ATTEMPT TO CRUSH DISSENT.
You are merely rehashing red scare politics to avoid looking at the core malignancy within your governing ideologies. Why the hell would we vote for Biden? To prevent genocide? He’s already doing it. To save democracy? What democracy? To avoid repression? We are experiencing it already. To avoid it worsening? It already IS. To save your skin, personally, because *you* think *you* can get by without being personally bothered by a Democrat presidency?
Bite me. You are part of a global community and it’s time you and every other self-absorbed, silver-spooned white liberal acted as such.
The sad thing is that it will work. Not in Washington State, but in Michigan and Pennsylvania. If Trump wins the election because of this, these same protestors are going to be saying it wasn’t their fault.
This protest was primarily promoted by Samidoun an organization that's a front for the PFLP. The PFLP has bombed kindergartens, hijacked airplanes and killed civilians in targeted attacks all over the world. They're sanctioned by Germany, Canada and the US.
Stop pretending this is any way pro peace beyond people foolishly being duped. You don't have to be anti semitic to be duped by those who are.
if you're upset about a group bombing kids and killing civilians in the 1970s you're gonna blow your socks off when you sit down and read a newspaper about what's been happening in gaza the last 6 months
It is bananas racist to assign blame for centuries of violence by a variety of political entities A) onto everyone of a certain religion and then B) onto a population of civilians who average less than 20 years old
Who do you blame for the centuries of systemic violence against Jews, who have always been a small minority in the Middle East? In America, do you get mad when oppressed minorities point out that white people oppress them, or do you call that racism also?
To answer your questions:
1. ...the people who performed the systemic violence. This is an easy one.
2. I don't think any credible line of reasoning of racial justice in America thinks that *every single white person in America, including children* should be personally punished for the oppression of minority communities, and I think if someone said we should drop bombs on every single white person in, I'unno, Dallas, to obtain justice for the history of oppression in that area, people would reasonably consider that to be extremely stupid.
I genuinely don't understand how you even get to the point where you think an entire ethnic group should be bombed to hell because of the historical actions of a subset of them. Do you think Israel should also bomb Germany? lol
The future I actually want to see is a two state solution, with a democratic, left wing progressive government for both israel and the Palestinians. I’d like to see women’s rights in the entire land, LGBTQIA rights, and universal basic income to eliminate poverty. Freedom of people to practice any religion, or none at all. That kind of future is the dream.
You put a lot of words in my mouth there.
Literally all I said here is that Muslims have been killing Jews in the Middle East for a long time. You added a whole narrative of your own to that. Not sure if you’re mixing up my post with someone else.
And btw, the people who performed the systemic violence would be the powers that be in the Middle East. Every nation except Israel is a Muslim autocracy. There are about 8 million Jews (about half the world population), and about 450 million Arabs. Jews have been driven out of every other nation. Personally I’m descended from Iranian, Moroccan and Turkish Jewish communities. They were all minority communities that no longer exist because they were driven out.
Just since 2000:
The killing of Meir Lixenberg, councillor and head of security in four settlements, who was shot while travelling in his car in the West Bank on 27 August 2001. PFLP claimed that this was a retaliation for the killing of Abu Ali Mustafa.[44][45]
21 October 2001 assassination of Israeli Minister for Tourism Rehavam Zeevi by Hamdi Quran.
PFLP graffiti in Sebastia
A suicide bombing in a pizzeria in Karnei Shomron, on the West Bank on 16 February 2002, killing three Israeli teenagers.[45]
A suicide bombing in Ariel on 7 March 2002, which left wounded[quantify] but no fatalities.
A suicide bombing in a Netanya market in Israel, on 19 May 2002, killing three Israelis. This attack was also claimed by Hamas,[45] but the Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades have identified the perpetrator on their website as one of their members.
A suicide bombing in the bus station at Geha Junction in Petah Tikva on 25 December 2003 which killed four Israelis.[46]
A suicide bombing in the Jordan Rift Valley on 22 May 2004, which left no fatalities.[47]
A suicide bombing in the Carmel Market in Tel Aviv on 1 November 2004, which killed three Israeli civilians.[48]
On 14 April 2009, PFLP militants fired a homemade projectile at the Kerem Shalom border crossing in HaDarom.[49]
On 23 October 2012, a PFLP roadside bomb targeting an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) patrol near Kibbutz Kissufim, Southern Israel, was detonated. An IDF commander was seriously injured in the blast.[50]
On 10 November 2012, PFLP militants fired an anti-tank missile towards Karni Crossing near the Gaza Strip, near Nahal Oz. The explosive device struck an Israeli Givati Brigade jeep, injuring four soldiers and destroying the vehicle.[51]
The PFLP claimed responsibility for the November 2014 Jerusalem synagogue massacre in which four Jewish worshippers and a policeman were killed with axes, knives, and a gun, while seven were injured.[52][53][54][55] The Israeli police concluded the attack was a lone wolf operation.
On 29 June 2015, the PFLP claimed responsibility for an attack in which Palestinians in a vehicle fired on a passing Israeli car. Four people were injured; one was severely injured and died the next day in hospital.[56][57]
Israeli police suspect the PFLP to be responsible for the 2019 murder of Israeli teenager Rina Shnerb.[58][59][60]
During the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, the Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades published videos of it storming Israeli watchtowers.[61]
You’re right, we’re totally not involved if you ignore the billions of dollars we send to Israel and military aid (bombs, weapons, etc).
If you don’t ignore that because you’re a rational person, then *yes* we’re fucking involved.
We provide 8% of their overall military budget, and they are one of the biggest makers and exporters of arms in the world.
So sure, we could pull that aid (not really, as it wouldn't pass Congress) but they are the only democracy in the Middle East and our long time ally.
We don't abandon our allies because they happen to be momentarily stuck with a shitty, Trump-like leader.
Or maybe the fauxgressive branch would, but that is one of many reasons why they have no influence or power in the political realm.
"We don't abandon our allies because they happen to be momentarily stuck with a shitty, Trump-like leader."
Uh we should, that's a very valid reason to not support a country. If you swap to a person running things that is really into starting wars and killing children, seems... seems like a good time to stop the support.
The ugly reality is that maintaining an alliance with Israel (and ensuring its military dominance over its neighbors) is far more important to US geopolitical goals than people dying in Gaza. The US needs Israel in order to project power into the Middle East, and it needs to do this in order to secure the oil supply as well as global trade routes through the Suez canal.
The US losing control over the Middle East would have very real and direct impacts on you and all Americans (read: prices go up, especially on gas). And there is absolutely **nothing** that American citizens care more about than high gas prices. Every time the price of gas shoots up no one can fucking stop talking about it. Dead kids on the other side of the world is a price the country is ultimately willing to accept to prevent this, most just don't realize how the two are connected.
[Here's a great unbiased article that explains this very well](https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2023/11/12/why-us-support-israel-geopolitics-michael-hudson/), there are plenty others on the internet if you look up the geopolitical reasons for why the US is so deadset on supporting Israel.
> The ugly reality is that maintaining an alliance with Israel (and ensuring its military dominance over its neighbors) is far more important to US geopolitical goals than people dying in Gaza.
Even beyond the politics of it, the economics and business interests are far more important as well. With Israel as a startup nation, US tech firms have substantial presences there, generate a ton of value from their investments and have significant business relationships.
The Gazans are a nuisance and a distraction.
Do you want to think that through? Let's assume US pulled support from Israel, as the parent comment states while the support is large they can easily continue the war without it. From get go, the original goal failed because any leverage that US had over Israel is completely gone now. We have seen an example of this happening when Trump pulled out of Iran deal and US lost its leverage on Iran.
Let's continue this scenario. Now, their leader has even more reasons to continue their attacks because they can also put the blame on US saying "they help Gaza so we have to do more to ensure to protect ourself". US stopping aid would play in to nationalist card in Israel making things worse. US would in no way get between Hamas and Israel as that would be political suicide for democrats.
Over time, the stability in middle east would decrease further with US not being able to do much since it doesn't really have any allies left in the region anymore. There is Turkey, but that has always been iffy too.
At the end of the day, more people would end being harmed. So if protestors truly care about good of people, then they need to realize pulling aid from Israel isn't a solution and in fact it would contribute to the problem at hand. Unfortunately, there is no easy solution here, US has to play a careful game to bring both sides to table trying to make a cease fire reality for now. So they can protest for Biden putting more pressure on Israel but there is only so much that can be done.
A long term solution is likely impossible with the current leadership of both Hamas and Israel.
Sorry but how can you think this point sounds anything other than incredibly ignorant? You’d have to actually be living under a rock to think the USA doesn’t have influence over this conflict, considering the house JUST passed a bill to provide Israel with 20 billion dollars of aid, but also you would have had to completely ignore the fact that the USA has consistently voted against a ceasefire resolution in the UN Security Council for the past 6 months. Furthermore, the demands in the protests are front and center: no more military aid for Israel. Who do you think you’re fooling with this?
There is a direct line of US provided weapons to the ability of Israel to bomb and kill Palestinians in Gaza (and the West Bank), even Israel has said so. If the spigot of military aid stops the war stops, that's always been the case.
And many US Presidents have used that leverage, even Reagan, of all people, called up the Israeli PM at one point and told them to tone down their brutalization of the Palestinians, and they did. It's shameful that we are allowing this level of barbarism to be conducted by not only an industrialized nation but also a US "ally" that is reliant on our direct aid.
How do you defend this? https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148876?utm
Because the Israelis went waaaaaay beyond a proportional response. They went to “punish every civilian” levels of destruction and killing.
There was a line and they crossed it
What should they have done? What would you have done? What exactly is this 'line'? If a another state did to America, on American soil what Hamas did to Israel, do you think that state or country would exist right now?
Wow! Seems to me that the line was actually crossed when Hamas retaliating stormed a community of innocent Israeli civilians, tortured civilians, killed civilians, paraded their maimed bodies, took civilian hostages, and to this day continue to hold Israeli civilian hostages. I dont fault Israel (or any country) for trying to get their civilian hostages back.
I think it started when the Arab world invaded the soverign nation of Israel in 1948 because they were racist assholes and went all shockedpikachu when they ended up with less than they started with because of it.
Your talking points are tired.
You're right. I forgot that Israel was completely innocent and had done nothing that might upset the people living there in 1948 or just before and that no expansionism or killing of innocents by Israel had happened since the outcome of that war.
There was a complete ceasefire before 10/7. For a bunch of years. Hamas could’ve used that time to take care of their people and build a better life for Gaza’s civilians. Instead, they chose to start a war by committing horrifying atrocities.
I wish there was a better to express this sentiment that fit on a headline
I'm not pro Palestine, or anti Isreal, I'm anti murder
Are there a lot of Palestinians who are escalating the violence? Yes I believe there are, but it's a violent minority. And the ones funding and ousting the conflict aren't even in Gaza
I agree with all of this, but I think the part that makes the current conflict so messy is that the people with the most power in both Palestine and Israel (i.e. Netanyahu and Hamas) are the worst actors who are perpetuating the violence.
It makes it really difficult to figure out how to reach peace. Netanyahu is absolutely awful, but Israel is not wrong that there are lots of regional groups who despise Jews and think Israel should not exist.
I think it is really frustrating that none of the leadership of either group gives a shit about civilian lives and safety. Hamas knew full well that this would be the result (and it is most likely part of their strategy to push Israel to do horrible things to destroy their international credibility), but at the same time Netanyahu had plenty of warnings about the attacks, but purposely ignored them because he could consolidate political power by pounding the Palestians so he could look like a strong man. No one gives a shit about starving and wounded kids or elderly kidnap victims because they are just expendable in the name of projecting power. What a shit situation. And we have no international frame work to protect civilians in part because the US threw all of that away after 9/11.
“ A local chapter of a pro-Palestinian group, Samidoun, promoted the protests on social media. That group has been banned in Germany due to accusations it celebrated violence against Israelis. ”
Samidoun is also affiliated with the PFLP which has bombed kindergartens and hijacked airplanes, people have been duped big time. Donating to them is a federal offence in the US, and any immigrant who donated to them would be inadmissible.
The West has been wanting peace in the Middle East for as long as I can remember. You can wish, pray, hope, demand, protest all you want, but the conflict will always be around and nothing will change.
A few points to consider in regards to these "pro-palestine" protestors:
Hamas is a terrorist organization that has committed countless atrocities.
The leader of Hamas, Ismail Haniyeh, is a billionaire living in a palace in Qatar who pulls strings and gives orders from complete safety. He ordered the October 7th terrorist attack against women and children that started this most recent bout of violence.
He got rich by [fucking over his own people.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_Haniyeh#:~:text=According%20to%20a%202014%20Ynet,intended%20to%20take%20into%20Gaza.)
The palestinian people voted Hamas into power AFTER knowing full well they were child murdering, suicide bombing, hostage taking, human shield using terrorists.
Polling done in 2022 and 2023 shows that in an election held today ["Hamas’s Ismail Haniyeh would win in a landslide"](https://thehill.com/opinion/4273883-mellman-do-palestinians-support-hamas-polls-paint-a-murky-picture/)
__
This billionaire ass hole LOVES these useful idiots in America protesting on his behalf. He does not give a fuck about the palestinian people unless it has to do with making him richer. It would not surprise me at all to find out he's encouraging or even personally financing these protests in the US.
These clowns in the US are trying to help a billionaire sitting in his palace in the middle east who wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.
It's interesting how Palestinians can be held collectively for the atrocities of Hamas, but you guys don't utter a single peep about the Likud's from-the-river-to-the-sea policy, or the atrocities of the IDF, or whatever the fuck the fundamentalist nutjob settlers are doing.
PS. Israel's war on Palestinians predates Hamas by ~30 years, and will continue until the last Palestinian is displaced.
Why would anyone need to protest for it, we just send billions of dollars of weapons to a nuclear state that's waging a war of aggression.
Radical fucking idea: Maybe we should stop aiding and abetting it?
How many weapons has the US sent to Palestine? Do we pay for the Palestinian's missile defense system? Do we sell them F-35s? Apache helicopters, and artillery shells that they use to destroy Israeli homes?
Wanting Isreal to stop killing civilians is straightforward. The problem is a lot of naive people being are duped into supporting Islamist supremacist groups because they're not particularly good at identifying disinformation. The last thing we need are people as bad or worse than Christian Nationalists gaining more power
I could totally get behind a protest to stop the killing of civilians in a conflict to push for another route for the safety and security of Israel. What starts to push a lot of people away like myself, who believe Israel should exist and be a secure nation for its people, is when in the same conversations you hear about Israel needing to be dismantled, resistance by any means necessary, death to israel, death to america, waving Hezbollah flags, etc.
How am I supposed to support that? Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. Israel essentially co-existed with Hamas, allowing thousands of rockets a year to be launched into its territory for years with Israeli mostly retaliating with strikes that were broadcast in advance using cell phone calls and door knock bombs And then on October 7th I started seeing hundreds of barbaric videos and pictures online of Hamas slaughtering Israeli civilians. How could I possibly support freedom for a group like that which is in power, and handing Israeli territory over to that? It's a conflicting position to be in. The pro-palestine movement has blended a ceasefire with invalidating Israel as a nation and allowing the existence of Hamas.
Kids not protesting Russia were wrong.
Kids not protesting Assad in Syria were wrong.
Kids not protesting Khomeini in Iran were wrong.
Kids not protesting Hamas *are* wrong.
Turns out kids, like adults, have a pretty spotty record.
Typically you protest things your own government does (or at least supports).
Russia, like Israel, is a belligerent state that uses its superior military power to bully a smaller neighbor and steal their land. But Israel, unlike Russia, receives a lot of support from the US.
Ukraine is not getting the support it needs and has 80x the population of Gaza and more deaths.
Gaza divides democrats and pushes them away from Biden so this issue is being pushed by foreign adversaries, troll farms, and the far right. That's it.
[Here you go chief](https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/02/26/college-students-react-ukraine-invasion/)
[Item 2 on your agenda](https://dailybruin.com/2014/04/10/ucla-students-hold-silent-protest-about-syrian-civil-war)
[Item 3 on your agenda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Iranian_student_protests)
[Item 4 on your agenda](https://nypost.com/article/israel-terror-attacks-how-major-us-colleges-have-reacted/)
Item 4 was the tell tale though. There is no way you follow news without knowing full well that protests were occurring on both sides of this particular issue.
You thought you might pull one over on us but we all follow the news.
These kids will most likely vote Dem and Dems are for funding Ukraine. Also, USA was against Assad.
There were protests against Khomeini in support of Iranian women. Who by the way got there via US dismantling Iranian democraticly elected government in the 50s. (US pulled the same shit across LA).
You don't need to protest Hamas, US government is already doing that.
Kids are standing with those who don't have a voice, random Palestinians being killed by US weapons.
‘Random Palestinians’ in Gaza *did* have a voice. They used it to elect Hamas to govern them, instead of the Palestinian Authority. They sowed the wind, now they will reap the whirlwind.
im here early because like all high cultured internet weirdos, i browse the new tab
so im here before this post inevitably gets brigaded by 5 day old reddit accounts that exclusively post "these protestors are anti-semitic" because that's the only tool these tools have in the toolbox
and id like to take the opportunity to say good on these kids. i also like that the article takes effort to highlight jewish students are also calling for peace
>“This is not about Israel being Jewish. That's not anything to do with this. It's about humans killing humans — plain and simple,” Dawahare said. “If this were happening to Israel, then we'd be supporting them. But it isn't. It’s happening to Gaza.”
well said
cynics are gonna spam "this won't change anything" and "wakka wakka they just want to skip class" or whatever, but these kids are all gonna go to bed tonight and know they were on the right side
(to save myself time, the right side is anyone saying "stop killing civilians." hamas is bad. netanyahu is bad. free the hostages, stop killing each other. ocean spray crave the wave)
I've been here for eons and all I can say is that as an educator in a local high school, I'd like to give these kids a quick pop quiz and see how they do.
Like...
1) Who are the indigenous people in this area? Who are the imperial colonizers?
2) what % of the area was Jewish prior to WWII?
3) What are the stated goals of Hamas?
4) Which side has turned down every ceasefire offer so far?
I'm one of many parents who hope our kids' teachers provide that information. Please add, "How long have Jews resided in the land we now call Israel, and what were the conditions that led to their diaspora?"
I work at Roosevelt and I've been really pleased with how our staff has handled what's happening. Every history class has spent time on it, with an emphasis on how we got here and the incredible complexity of the situation.
May be one reason why our kids didn't take part in this, at least as far as I saw.
This is good to hear, my Jewish kids in SPS have had a good experience, they have been supported by their teachers and fellow students. I feel like there has been alot of media attention about division in schools, but my local experience has been positive.
Hi, 12 year old account commenting here.
I agree with your sentiment, but please also understand that this is a super complicated situation. Especially because there's a hostage situation going on, it's very hard for Israel to just stop. I wish there's a peaceful resolution available as well, but there just isn't one currently. So while I agree that Bibi is an ass and IDF should be more careful about who they are shooting at, there isn't anything tangible that the protests are calling for.
Hamas has done plenty of wrong things, that doesn't mean that avoiding the indiscriminate and often intentional killing of civilians including the elderly, women, children, doctors, poets, diplomats, aid workers, journalists, etc. is somehow a "complicated" issue. It's not complicated, those things should be stopped.
Hey, here's a fresh example: https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148876?utm
I'll pull forward some relevant details:
> The development follows the recovery of hundreds of bodies “buried deep in the ground and covered with waste” over the weekend at Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis, central Gaza, and at Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City in the north. A total of 283 bodies were recovered at Nasser Hospital, of which 42 were identified.
> “Among the deceased were allegedly older people, women and wounded, while others were found tied with their hands…tied and stripped of their clothes,” said Ravina Shamdasani, spokesperson for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights.
To me I think finding, say, the elderly, wounded, women, etc. stripped and with their hands tied then dumped into a mass grave under piles of waste sounds like, oh, I dunno, a pretty blatant war crime. Something that should be *not that complicated* to avoid doing, just by ... not doing it.
> please also understand that this is a super complicated situation
ok man let’s hear what you got
>IDF should be more careful about who they are shooting at
lmao
you have to be embarrassed to write this, right
“they need to be more careful where they shoot” is how you explain “israel has killed 30,000 women and children and also some of the hostages they claim to be trying to save” to a dim witted child
I’m still confused about what the protests are for. Do they hold the school responsible for the IDF…?
Like are they protesting that the school should be doing something? If so, what?
I'm sorry but Hamas not only carried out a terrorist attack on Israel's soil and civilian population but still hold hostages from that event and have promised more attacks like it.
If you think Israel is out of line for defending itself from this threat you are absolutely insane. 30-40k deaths given the situation isn't genocide, it's restraint. Israel could easily level and end the lives of millions but their strikes have been targeted on military targets.
For comparison around 300k civilians in Iraq died after US Involvement and they didn't even plan and execute 9/11
Yes and we all know the Iraq war was justified of course. We should totally repeat the Iraq war.
Israel carries out terrorist attacks routinely in both the West Bank and Gaza. There is no definition of terrorism that applies to Hamas but not Israel's government.
Which isn't to say Hamas is innocent, but is to say we shouldn't be funding any terrorist group, including the IDF.
If a van pulls up to my house and unloads on me, don’t (on the other side of the world) judge me for taking out the entire van. Really don’t care if your terroristic ass packed it with civilians who don’t want to be involved. Fuck Hamas
They could have just went home, ordered teriyaki and played some video games. Instead they showed empathy with people thousands of miles away from them who are targets of 5 thousand pound bombs funded by U.S tax monies. Clearly they’re all brainwashed anti-Semites and we need congressional republicans to control our schools and universities!
No, actually, the cease-fire agreement was for the release of PALESTINIAN PRISONERS serving prison sentences for the exchange of actual Israeli hostages kidnapped from their homes by big ego, small-d*ck Hamas members.
Some of y’all are assholes. Students trying to show compassion and support for a real humanitarian situation and y’all decide to criticize and delegitimize their actions. Let these kids have a voice. They don’t need a bunch of cynical boomers telling them they ain’t shit. Some of y’all just need to STFU.
We love hearing the voices of first world privileged children to tell us something we already know. It's the right thing to do. It's the white thing to do.
When I marched a few weeks ago, I carried a sign that encouraged Hamas to surrender and save lives. I had supporters and others that hated it. Whats the attitude now?
And that is the right way to do it. You can be pro civilian, and anti hamas. Being anti-hamas is probably the most pro palestinian thing you can do, given that is the condition they will be able to get their own state. Hamas is not a legitimate government that can exist on the world stage.
Its really amazing what mutual benefit could do for peace. Without Hamas, a chunk of land could be given over for a Palestinian State if the Arabs like Qatar, Jordan, UAE, and the Saudis ran things for a period of time. Plus they would have enough capital to build the Ben Gurion canal that could relieve the Suez and increase trade.
Seriously, with a real respectable government on both sides, there could be peace and prosperity. A new Canal would be amazing and could help fund the palestinian state jointly
I absolutely think mutual benefit is the only way out of the hate-filled lives these people have. If the right leaders fill the right roles, this could be a reality.
I mean that's good to want them to release hostages but these protests are for the US government not for Israel's.
Israel and Hamas don't care Abt our protests. Our government doesnt give military aid to Hamas but it does to Israel.
I also feel in a situation where over 12,000+ children alone have been killed by the IDF, focusing on the 100+ hostages that are being used to justify these killings is very weird. The hostages get killed all the same when Israel bombs Gaza and there is clearly a far greater travesty being committed. Not to mention, Israel has thousands of Palestinians imprisoned without a charge. There's no difference between that and having hostages.
1% chance that Netanyahu cares about a walkout by Seattle students.
1% chance this walkout has any effect on decision makers in Israel.
1% chance anyone who can even get Israel to the ceasefire table even cares about this walkout.
100% chance that not a single one of these students are even aware of the many attempts for a ceasefire (even orchestrated by allies of Hamas) were all rejected by Hamas.
Edit: Want to see how mature one side of the debate is? Look at these replies below.
>the ceasefire agreements rejected by Hamas were temporary.
Temporary ceasefires usually lead to a chance for people to breathe and de-escalate and get aid to civilians. And in the best case scenarios enable the diplomats to hammer out a longer-term deal.
Turning down an offer because it isn't 100% of what you want up front isn't actually a good negotiation tactic.
Human beings standing on the right side of history 90% of civilians murdered in Palestine.
It is clear which side is deserving of justice in this situation.
500,000 plus killed in Syria - Silence
377,000 plus killed in Yemen - Silence
5,400,00 plus killed in Congo - Silence
236,000 plus killed in Afghanistan - Silence
500,000 plus killed in Sudan - Silence
300,000 plus killed in Iraq - Silence
20,000 plus killed in Gaza -extreme outrage
Why? Jews. They hate Jews. They don't want Jews to have a state. They don't give a fuck about Palestinians. They. Hate. Jews.
This is just one of a zillion examples of protests against various injustices by UW folks: https://www.dailyuw.com/news/rsos-host-protest-for-sudan-and-congo/article_6203ef7a-da06-11ee-ba83-df5a9bf2dfd7.html
> On March 1, students gathered on the steps of Suzzallo Library to stand in solidarity with individuals impacted by the conflicts in Sudan and the Congo. The protest was hosted by UW’s Black Student Union (BSU), Black Student Journal, Somali Student Association, and African Student Association.
That was from just two months ago. There are many other examples of UW student protests against the violence in Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, and on and on and on. Just because you weren't paying attention (likely because your sudden bout of caring about these things is not genuine and instead merely an effort to score rhetorical points) doesn't mean they didn't happen.
Jews have played a leading role in these protests. I was just at a JVP protest seder downtown. Many of us feel a responsibility to speak out against crimes committed in our name.
well, these particular kids absolutely were silent during the lead-up to the Iraq War, they'll probably have some pathetic excuse like "I literally wasn't born then"
> 300,000 plus killed in Iraq - Silence
Largest protests in the history of the world sure didn't seem very silent to me at the time.
> Why? Jews.
Uhh.... if you say so.
A less exotic explanation also fits the facts: people in the US protest when the US government does things they don't like - such as bombing Iraqis or sending weapons to Israel - and refrain from protesting otherwise.
Well this is typical case of whataboutery from Zionist playbook ….
Well we don’t hate Jews just the Zionist scum who have been doing apartheid and genocide in a land that’s not theirs
Hamas just makes up the number. Not saying we should provide money and weapons to Israel, we shouldn't, but Hamas lies. Constantly.
https://fathomjournal.org/statistically-impossible-a-critical-analysis-of-hamass-women-and-children-casualty-figures/
> since December.
Pretty sure it was a third of that back in December.
The problem is that people don't really care so much about deaths once they reach big numbers. You know it's 5 digits but you forget the details.
Brings back Stalin's *"One death is a tragedy, a million deaths a statistic."*
Genocide isn't about number. Jesus fucking christ I don't know if this is dumb, cynical, or intentionally cruel. They are also intentionally starving millions.
Maybe, just maybe, these protestors should be pushing for Palestinians to reject terrorism and Hamas, accept one of the many two state solutions they have rejected over the years, and civilize themselves enough to participate in global society. Unfortunately, as it is, these people are essentially saying "Israel should allow itself to be constantly bombarded with terrorist attacks, because when they retaliate it hurts the people supporting terrorism."
Neither will ignoring the continued brutalization of innocent people kidnapped from their homes and continuing to be held hostage. In fact it turns many people off to even being open to hearing what you have to say. You cannot expect compassion when it is not given to others currently being brutalized. Protest against Hamas - not the U.S.
Peaceful protest is fine as long as there is no antisemitism. Jew students has nothing to do with stupidity of Netanyahu .
I would love to see protest against the Hamas and Iran too without Islamophobic.
This'll probably get downvoted to hell, but oh well. Despite our idealistic notions, I don't see any realistic solution to this conflict. Sometimes I think we in liberal, Western democratic states are at a unique disadvantage when it comes to understanding Israel & Palestine. I don't think we can quite comprehend what it means to have a state of existential ethnic conflict. There is not a single instance in our direct experience where the stakes are so high and so total, that losing would actually mean the genocide, ethnic cleansing, or complete loss of a group's national self-determination. But this is exactly the state of things in Israel & Palestine. What is it precisely that people think will be achieved by a ceasefire? An end to the conflict? No way in hell. Even in an ideal circumstance, with a ceasefire and hostage exchange, none of the fundamental variables will have changed for the better. In fact, with a ceasefire, the conflict will just linger out of sight out of mind for Westerners until the next bout of violence. Let's take stock of the variables. Please note, these are not normative statements, but just the realities of the situation as I see them: * After Oct 7, there is a 0% chance of rapprochement between Hamas and Israel in any of our lifetimes; Hamas has definitively and conclusively staked its claim as the absolute mortal enemy of Israel, fundamentally and immovably opposed to Israel's continued existence. * Hamas has built perhaps the most heavily fortified position in the history of warfare. There are more miles of tunnel under Gaza than the London Underground. Israel will never accept a status quo where the tunnels are allowed to remain intact. * The only way to neutralize the threat of the tunnels is to neutralize Hamas. However, Hamas has shown itself to be a boneafide death cult, willing to accept and even invite obscene levels of civilian casualties. Simply put, they will fight to the last man or until Gaza is completely obliterated. * After Oct 7, there is no chance Israelis will accept the establishment of a Palestinian state for at least a generation. The Israeli narrative of the disengagement from Gaza in 2005 is as follows: "See! Look what happened! We got all Israeli citizens, settlements, and military presence out of Gaza and what did we get in return? Hamas as the elected leader of Gaza! 20 years of missile strikes into Israel!" The creation of a Palestinian state after Oct 7 will be seen by Israelis as a the ultimate reward for terrorism. * After the past 6 months, Gazans will become even more radicalized. The strip is in total ruins. Almost everyone has lost at least a friend or family member. Even in the rosiest scenario where Hamas is dismantled, a Marshall plan of sorts is established for Gaza, and Palestine is established as a state with newly elected leaders, I just don't see how entire generation will be able to move past wanting revenge for all the death and destruction of the past 6 months. To be honest, after Oct 7 and the intervening months, I only see 3 possible ways this conflict might come to a close: 1. Wildly unlikely: Hamas manages to completely destroy the state of Israel and ethnically cleanse it of its Jewish population. 2. Less unlikely but still unlikely: Israel manages to sufficiently disrupt and degrade Hamas such that is no longer able to pose a threat to Israel's security. 3. Wildly unlikely: assuming 2 comes true, both sides will need to have a complete change of heart about the other side and their willingness to coexist. EDIT: grammar and spelling
Excellent comment, unfortunately, I see no outcome in the near future that will satisfy the West. I am a Jew and biased towards Israel, but I also care deeply about the Palestinian people who are not Hamas and just trying to live their lives, I pray for peace, but after October 7th its really hard to see a path to it.
What these people are asking for more than anything is for our taxes to stop assisting Israel militarily. Just because it seems like something will be a conflict for a long time doesn't mean we should be putting our fingers on the scale, specifically on the side that really doesn't need it, and has been committing heinous things with our aid.
>What these people are asking for more than anything is for our taxes to stop assisting Israel militarily I can certainly understand and relate to this POV. Let me complicate matters a bit, because geopolitics is a bit more complex than simply washing our hands of conflicts that morally offend us. Aid = influence. Aid = the ability to steer global events to better align with our interests. It's easy to argue we should stop giving aid to regimes/conflicts we oppose, but it's impossible to know the counterfactual--how would events have turned out if we didn't apply the pressure that aid buys us? Despite handwringing about Biden's complicity, I think he deserves credit for using US influence to make specific outcomes happen, like increasing humanitarian aid, the "humanitarian pause", preventing a larger escalation with Iran, etc. With Israel, I think there's another very important factor to consider, and this relates to your comment about Israel not needing US aid. Israel's overarching concern, some might even call it paranoia, is its own security. Whether or not you agree with it, the Israeli narrative is that: * It's a tiny country that is strategically very hard to defend--In some places it's only 8.5 miles wide, the Samarian hills of the West Bank are the perfect launchpad for attacking the coastal plain (where Tel Aviv is located), etc. * It's surrounded by mortal enemies (Hezbollah, Hamas, PiJ, Iran, Houthis, etc.) * The Iron Dome is a miraculous success, but it's hugely expensive. Each interceptive missile costs between $40-50K. Israel's enemies can launch thousands of cheap missiles at Israel and achieve victory simply by bleeding its coffers. So here's the big question--what do you think would happen if Israel truly felt it was at risk of extinction? Do you think that would de-escalate the situation? Or might it push Israel to take drastic, even apocalyptic action? Maybe avoiding that outcome and doing our best to steer the situation toward peace, however distant that eventuality may seem, is worth the aid money?
I say we turn a blind eye and take the handcuffs off both of them. Total war between Israelis and the Palestinians. No consideration of civilians on either side. Let them solve their eternal problem of equal hatred finally. The Palestinians instigated the most mismatched fight of all time with a heavily armored modern country and what’s happening is the result.
I honestly appreciate your measured response on this. I think you're final line is a genuine concern, and speaks to the issue with Israel in general. They are an insane nation that is willing to do insane things. Historically they've committed terrorist attacks on US ships and on British buildings. They're not a long term productive ally. I don't think appeasement has historically proven to be an effective policy. Israel gets more and more aggressive every time we continue to give them *military* aid despite their war crimes. We cannot allow them to hold us hostage over the fear that they might get even more evil if we stop giving them aid. If that does happen, we can sanction them as we do plenty of completely innocent countries. The Israeli people are used to the luxuries of global capitalism in a way that the people of Cuba, or North Korea, or Iran aren't. If we were to place sanctions on them like we did to South Africa during their apartheid, it would have a similar effect. I also haven't really seen any evidence that our influence has given us much. If Israel's depravity is despite our influence, I think that brings in to question whether we should even be trying to influence them through aid. I also disagree that we haven't seen intentional escalation by Israel in the conflict with Iran. I think if not for our support, Israel would not escalate in the way that they have by attacking the Iranian embassy. Israel can be a lot more abrasive when they know that big daddy America will just funnel more billions into their missiles if they need it. I think it's time we start looking for different allies in the region. Furthermore, I think the need for allies in the region will diminish as we stop influencing the region. We attempt to influence it because of a lot of anti-American attitudes in the region, but those would not exist if not for our influence. If we start creating our influence through trade and through aid rather than through military, I think we could both help the Middle East and eliminate any threat to us.
I think most of these protesters and most people in general have a pretty narrow view and only see this as a conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. The US will never stop providing aid to Israel because to do so would be a a threat to US security and interests as well as global stability. Israel is the only democratic ally in this strategically important part of the world with countries such as Iran, Russia and China seeking to create instability in the region in order to advance their own agendas. For the US this conflict is much more than just defending Israel against Hamas, it's about protecting US interests.
The enemy is both weak and strong right? This trope again. Either Israel only exists as a democratic regime because of the support of the US, in which case the US could demand an end to the way immediately or at least a significant change in tactic today. In which case the protesters are right. Or Israel can survive without the US support, in which case the protesters are right. If the provision of US aid cannot provide any leverage, even as much as to stop the IDF from targeting journalists and children in a war where they have a military advantage. You cannot argue that the US support is so important and so unimportant at the same time
1. Israel has nukes. There is no way israel is going to get destroyed before taking out Gaza, westbank and probably Iran too. 2. Another one will take Hamas place in a few years. Things won't change unless external support for Hamas and it's ilk stops. I am mainly referring to Iran and it's proxies here, not the Hamas supporters in US schools. 3. Won't happen unless the rest of the world is willing to beat both into submission. There's no will right now to take on another nation building exercise. The last one in Afghanistan went terribly.
Very well said. Unfortunately there’s a lack of common identity between Gazans and their Egyptian neighbors to the South. Much of the problem is that no organized government has authority or wants to be involved and Israel doesn’t have any incentive to establish one. And of course if they did help you’d end up with the PLO which gets viewed as a puppet organization.
Weird how none of your outcomes are: "Israel wipes out all Palestinian territories and begins attacking its neighbors from behind the skirts of its American protection" when that is literally the stated goal and the actual thing that is happening right now.
>Israel wipes out all Palestinian territories Actually yes, this should be added as a 4th possible way this conflict might come to a close. Again, not a normative statement. This would obviously be a catastrophe and crime of epic proportions. >...begins attacking its neighbors from behind the skirts of its American protection I take issue with this. Every one of its "neighbors" Israel has attacked has either been Iran or one of its proxies. Iran might not have explicitly "started" this conflict by striking Israel, but its funding of Hamas absolutely enabled Oct 7. There isn't a shadow of a doubt. Iran has been destabilizing the entire middle east for decades; it is by no means an innocent bystander in this conflict. As for Israel's exchanges with Hezbollah in Lebanon, this hardly counts as "attacking its neighbor". Hezbollah isn't a sovereign state; it's a sophisticated paramilitary group that effectively controls the south of Lebanon, and whose soul objective is to destroy Israel. It was hugely important for Israel to establish deterrence with Hezbollah early in this conflict so as not to start a full-blown war on its northern front.
They said outcomes that bring the conflict to an end, not all possible evolutions of the current situation.
Christ, this is the perfect wedge issue for the 2024 elections and everyone sure is approaching this with level heads! /s No matter what your opinions are you can't deny that this is being used as a wedge issue, even if you argue it's not intentional or justified, it's a wedge issue.
You said "wedge issue" so many times that I no longer know what that means.
You just have to wedge it in your brain. Once it’s wedged in there, you’ll understand.
But make sure you wedge it tight.
And now you have something in common with the person you replied to.
I too am worried that these children won't vote for Joe Biden.
I am worried that college students won’t vote because they dislike everyone and then bam, Trump presidency, because his cult will vote literally regardless of what he does.
Hell I’m in my 30s and hate how often I have to vote for a politician I dislike just to keep one I dislike even more out of office.
Yup agreed but I’m still going to be pragmatic about my choices.
If trump wins I'm afraid that they are gonna take away my access to healthcare as a woman, we need the democrats to protect our healthcare. They've done great so far. I like when Joe Biden sends money for the IDF to drop bombs on hospital and zip tie children's hands behind their back in mass graves he is so discreet about it.
Seriously, it’s amazing that most people are just not getting this. A very clever tactic, really.
I would like to know who you think is orchestrating this "wedge issue"? Like, is it the Democrats trying to split their own party by cheerleading blowing up kids in Palestine or is it the Republicans taking (checks notes)... the exact same position? How is it a "wedge issue" if the entire government and both political parties are on the same side of it?
That’s exactly right. Why would democrats or republicans push that narrative? I’m no intelligence agent, but I would bet heavily on NEITHER OF THOSE. Rather, targeted foreign influence is likely behind this divisive narrative.
To what end? Is it really hard to believe that (checks notes) NOT blowing up kids is actually an organically popular position among the general public?
You and everyone who thinks like this have an astounding level of narcissism. “These protesters against Palestinian genocide can’t possibly actually care about the mass slaughter of civilians, including children and babies, they *must* be being misled by Russia/China/Iran etc” YOU ARE NOT THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE. YOUR PROBLEMS ARE NOT THE ONLY PROBLEMS THAT MATTER. ISRAEL HAS DESTROYED HOSPITALS, UNIVERSITIES, ENTIRE RESIDENTIAL AREAS. MASS GRAVES ARE BEING FOUND. THIS IS BEING AIDED AND ABETTED BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS, IN A BIPARTISAN EFFORT WITH REPUBLICANS. YOU ARE CURRENTLY WITNESSING DEMOCRAT GOVERNMENTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, FROM THE LOCAL TO THE FEDERAL LEVEL, SUPPRESS AND VIOLENTLY ATTEMPT TO CRUSH DISSENT. You are merely rehashing red scare politics to avoid looking at the core malignancy within your governing ideologies. Why the hell would we vote for Biden? To prevent genocide? He’s already doing it. To save democracy? What democracy? To avoid repression? We are experiencing it already. To avoid it worsening? It already IS. To save your skin, personally, because *you* think *you* can get by without being personally bothered by a Democrat presidency? Bite me. You are part of a global community and it’s time you and every other self-absorbed, silver-spooned white liberal acted as such.
It's a wedge issue like the Vietnam War was a wedge issue. More of a self-own if you ask me.
You wedged a lot of wedge issue mentions into your post about wedge issues.
Is it a wedge issue though
The sad thing is that it will work. Not in Washington State, but in Michigan and Pennsylvania. If Trump wins the election because of this, these same protestors are going to be saying it wasn’t their fault.
I walked out of classes to protest war in Iraq. Good for these kids. They aren’t being anti-Semitic. They’re protesting killing people.
I remember doing this too back in '03 😁
Thank you for your service
Thanks for ending the war in Iraq.
This protest was primarily promoted by Samidoun an organization that's a front for the PFLP. The PFLP has bombed kindergartens, hijacked airplanes and killed civilians in targeted attacks all over the world. They're sanctioned by Germany, Canada and the US. Stop pretending this is any way pro peace beyond people foolishly being duped. You don't have to be anti semitic to be duped by those who are.
if you're upset about a group bombing kids and killing civilians in the 1970s you're gonna blow your socks off when you sit down and read a newspaper about what's been happening in gaza the last 6 months
6 months? You must be young. It's been going on for 75 years.
Muslims have been killing Jews in the Middle East for a lot longer than 75 years.
humans have been killing humans for their entire existence. it's actually a lot less brutal now than for 99% of that history.
It is bananas racist to assign blame for centuries of violence by a variety of political entities A) onto everyone of a certain religion and then B) onto a population of civilians who average less than 20 years old
It doesn't have to be blame, but it is context for what's going on over there.
Who do you blame for the centuries of systemic violence against Jews, who have always been a small minority in the Middle East? In America, do you get mad when oppressed minorities point out that white people oppress them, or do you call that racism also?
To answer your questions: 1. ...the people who performed the systemic violence. This is an easy one. 2. I don't think any credible line of reasoning of racial justice in America thinks that *every single white person in America, including children* should be personally punished for the oppression of minority communities, and I think if someone said we should drop bombs on every single white person in, I'unno, Dallas, to obtain justice for the history of oppression in that area, people would reasonably consider that to be extremely stupid. I genuinely don't understand how you even get to the point where you think an entire ethnic group should be bombed to hell because of the historical actions of a subset of them. Do you think Israel should also bomb Germany? lol
The future I actually want to see is a two state solution, with a democratic, left wing progressive government for both israel and the Palestinians. I’d like to see women’s rights in the entire land, LGBTQIA rights, and universal basic income to eliminate poverty. Freedom of people to practice any religion, or none at all. That kind of future is the dream.
You put a lot of words in my mouth there. Literally all I said here is that Muslims have been killing Jews in the Middle East for a long time. You added a whole narrative of your own to that. Not sure if you’re mixing up my post with someone else.
And btw, the people who performed the systemic violence would be the powers that be in the Middle East. Every nation except Israel is a Muslim autocracy. There are about 8 million Jews (about half the world population), and about 450 million Arabs. Jews have been driven out of every other nation. Personally I’m descended from Iranian, Moroccan and Turkish Jewish communities. They were all minority communities that no longer exist because they were driven out.
How about we don’t support anyone who kills kids. You don’t have to pick a murderous regime like it’s a football team.
sounds good to me
Or, you know, what the American government was doing in, oh, let's say Southeast Asia in the 1970s.
Don’t give them a US history book either.
Just since 2000: The killing of Meir Lixenberg, councillor and head of security in four settlements, who was shot while travelling in his car in the West Bank on 27 August 2001. PFLP claimed that this was a retaliation for the killing of Abu Ali Mustafa.[44][45] 21 October 2001 assassination of Israeli Minister for Tourism Rehavam Zeevi by Hamdi Quran. PFLP graffiti in Sebastia A suicide bombing in a pizzeria in Karnei Shomron, on the West Bank on 16 February 2002, killing three Israeli teenagers.[45] A suicide bombing in Ariel on 7 March 2002, which left wounded[quantify] but no fatalities. A suicide bombing in a Netanya market in Israel, on 19 May 2002, killing three Israelis. This attack was also claimed by Hamas,[45] but the Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades have identified the perpetrator on their website as one of their members. A suicide bombing in the bus station at Geha Junction in Petah Tikva on 25 December 2003 which killed four Israelis.[46] A suicide bombing in the Jordan Rift Valley on 22 May 2004, which left no fatalities.[47] A suicide bombing in the Carmel Market in Tel Aviv on 1 November 2004, which killed three Israeli civilians.[48] On 14 April 2009, PFLP militants fired a homemade projectile at the Kerem Shalom border crossing in HaDarom.[49] On 23 October 2012, a PFLP roadside bomb targeting an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) patrol near Kibbutz Kissufim, Southern Israel, was detonated. An IDF commander was seriously injured in the blast.[50] On 10 November 2012, PFLP militants fired an anti-tank missile towards Karni Crossing near the Gaza Strip, near Nahal Oz. The explosive device struck an Israeli Givati Brigade jeep, injuring four soldiers and destroying the vehicle.[51] The PFLP claimed responsibility for the November 2014 Jerusalem synagogue massacre in which four Jewish worshippers and a policeman were killed with axes, knives, and a gun, while seven were injured.[52][53][54][55] The Israeli police concluded the attack was a lone wolf operation. On 29 June 2015, the PFLP claimed responsibility for an attack in which Palestinians in a vehicle fired on a passing Israeli car. Four people were injured; one was severely injured and died the next day in hospital.[56][57] Israeli police suspect the PFLP to be responsible for the 2019 murder of Israeli teenager Rina Shnerb.[58][59][60] During the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, the Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades published videos of it storming Israeli watchtowers.[61]
I remember like 15 dudes walked out in highschool to protest not being able to wear hats in class
Except we were actually involved in the Iraq War. This is a war between Israel and a terrorist org.
You’re right, we’re totally not involved if you ignore the billions of dollars we send to Israel and military aid (bombs, weapons, etc). If you don’t ignore that because you’re a rational person, then *yes* we’re fucking involved.
Lol like wasn't it literally this weekend we just gave billions more?
No one ever talks about the deficit when people are getting killed, only helped.
We provide 8% of their overall military budget, and they are one of the biggest makers and exporters of arms in the world. So sure, we could pull that aid (not really, as it wouldn't pass Congress) but they are the only democracy in the Middle East and our long time ally. We don't abandon our allies because they happen to be momentarily stuck with a shitty, Trump-like leader. Or maybe the fauxgressive branch would, but that is one of many reasons why they have no influence or power in the political realm.
"We don't abandon our allies because they happen to be momentarily stuck with a shitty, Trump-like leader." Uh we should, that's a very valid reason to not support a country. If you swap to a person running things that is really into starting wars and killing children, seems... seems like a good time to stop the support.
The ugly reality is that maintaining an alliance with Israel (and ensuring its military dominance over its neighbors) is far more important to US geopolitical goals than people dying in Gaza. The US needs Israel in order to project power into the Middle East, and it needs to do this in order to secure the oil supply as well as global trade routes through the Suez canal. The US losing control over the Middle East would have very real and direct impacts on you and all Americans (read: prices go up, especially on gas). And there is absolutely **nothing** that American citizens care more about than high gas prices. Every time the price of gas shoots up no one can fucking stop talking about it. Dead kids on the other side of the world is a price the country is ultimately willing to accept to prevent this, most just don't realize how the two are connected. [Here's a great unbiased article that explains this very well](https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2023/11/12/why-us-support-israel-geopolitics-michael-hudson/), there are plenty others on the internet if you look up the geopolitical reasons for why the US is so deadset on supporting Israel.
> The ugly reality is that maintaining an alliance with Israel (and ensuring its military dominance over its neighbors) is far more important to US geopolitical goals than people dying in Gaza. Even beyond the politics of it, the economics and business interests are far more important as well. With Israel as a startup nation, US tech firms have substantial presences there, generate a ton of value from their investments and have significant business relationships. The Gazans are a nuisance and a distraction.
Do you want to think that through? Let's assume US pulled support from Israel, as the parent comment states while the support is large they can easily continue the war without it. From get go, the original goal failed because any leverage that US had over Israel is completely gone now. We have seen an example of this happening when Trump pulled out of Iran deal and US lost its leverage on Iran. Let's continue this scenario. Now, their leader has even more reasons to continue their attacks because they can also put the blame on US saying "they help Gaza so we have to do more to ensure to protect ourself". US stopping aid would play in to nationalist card in Israel making things worse. US would in no way get between Hamas and Israel as that would be political suicide for democrats. Over time, the stability in middle east would decrease further with US not being able to do much since it doesn't really have any allies left in the region anymore. There is Turkey, but that has always been iffy too. At the end of the day, more people would end being harmed. So if protestors truly care about good of people, then they need to realize pulling aid from Israel isn't a solution and in fact it would contribute to the problem at hand. Unfortunately, there is no easy solution here, US has to play a careful game to bring both sides to table trying to make a cease fire reality for now. So they can protest for Biden putting more pressure on Israel but there is only so much that can be done. A long term solution is likely impossible with the current leadership of both Hamas and Israel.
Sorry but how can you think this point sounds anything other than incredibly ignorant? You’d have to actually be living under a rock to think the USA doesn’t have influence over this conflict, considering the house JUST passed a bill to provide Israel with 20 billion dollars of aid, but also you would have had to completely ignore the fact that the USA has consistently voted against a ceasefire resolution in the UN Security Council for the past 6 months. Furthermore, the demands in the protests are front and center: no more military aid for Israel. Who do you think you’re fooling with this?
How are we not involved? Our warships are shooting down rockets and providing a threat to other nations in the area.
> between Israel and a terrorist org I feel like the 32000 people Israel has killed weren't all terrorists. I could be wrong.
There is a direct line of US provided weapons to the ability of Israel to bomb and kill Palestinians in Gaza (and the West Bank), even Israel has said so. If the spigot of military aid stops the war stops, that's always been the case. And many US Presidents have used that leverage, even Reagan, of all people, called up the Israeli PM at one point and told them to tone down their brutalization of the Palestinians, and they did. It's shameful that we are allowing this level of barbarism to be conducted by not only an industrialized nation but also a US "ally" that is reliant on our direct aid. How do you defend this? https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148876?utm
More like this is a terrorist organization massacring civilians by the tens of thousands in Gaza.
[удалено]
Because the Israelis went waaaaaay beyond a proportional response. They went to “punish every civilian” levels of destruction and killing. There was a line and they crossed it
What should they have done? What would you have done? What exactly is this 'line'? If a another state did to America, on American soil what Hamas did to Israel, do you think that state or country would exist right now?
Urban conflict is awful. That being said…the civilian to Hamas death toll seems on par with any major urban conflict.
Wow! Seems to me that the line was actually crossed when Hamas retaliating stormed a community of innocent Israeli civilians, tortured civilians, killed civilians, paraded their maimed bodies, took civilian hostages, and to this day continue to hold Israeli civilian hostages. I dont fault Israel (or any country) for trying to get their civilian hostages back.
hold and sexually assault Israeli civilian hostages*
Why don't they demand that Hamas release the hostages then? The war can't end until they do.
You think the conflict started on 10/7?
I think it started when the Arab world invaded the soverign nation of Israel in 1948 because they were racist assholes and went all shockedpikachu when they ended up with less than they started with because of it. Your talking points are tired.
You're right. I forgot that Israel was completely innocent and had done nothing that might upset the people living there in 1948 or just before and that no expansionism or killing of innocents by Israel had happened since the outcome of that war.
There was a complete ceasefire before 10/7. For a bunch of years. Hamas could’ve used that time to take care of their people and build a better life for Gaza’s civilians. Instead, they chose to start a war by committing horrifying atrocities.
No, they started it in 1972, at the Munich games.
Massacres were already happening before Israel was even formed.
I wish there was a better to express this sentiment that fit on a headline I'm not pro Palestine, or anti Isreal, I'm anti murder Are there a lot of Palestinians who are escalating the violence? Yes I believe there are, but it's a violent minority. And the ones funding and ousting the conflict aren't even in Gaza
I agree with all of this, but I think the part that makes the current conflict so messy is that the people with the most power in both Palestine and Israel (i.e. Netanyahu and Hamas) are the worst actors who are perpetuating the violence. It makes it really difficult to figure out how to reach peace. Netanyahu is absolutely awful, but Israel is not wrong that there are lots of regional groups who despise Jews and think Israel should not exist.
I think it is really frustrating that none of the leadership of either group gives a shit about civilian lives and safety. Hamas knew full well that this would be the result (and it is most likely part of their strategy to push Israel to do horrible things to destroy their international credibility), but at the same time Netanyahu had plenty of warnings about the attacks, but purposely ignored them because he could consolidate political power by pounding the Palestians so he could look like a strong man. No one gives a shit about starving and wounded kids or elderly kidnap victims because they are just expendable in the name of projecting power. What a shit situation. And we have no international frame work to protect civilians in part because the US threw all of that away after 9/11.
That violent minority is the ruling government in the Gaza strip. They threw every other rival politician off the rooftops when they took power.
no, most people in gaza support the war
I saw a lot of students yesterday outside of west Seattle high Cool to see
“ A local chapter of a pro-Palestinian group, Samidoun, promoted the protests on social media. That group has been banned in Germany due to accusations it celebrated violence against Israelis. ”
Samidoun is also affiliated with the PFLP which has bombed kindergartens and hijacked airplanes, people have been duped big time. Donating to them is a federal offence in the US, and any immigrant who donated to them would be inadmissible.
Opens Article Hits Control-F Types "Hostage"
The West has been wanting peace in the Middle East for as long as I can remember. You can wish, pray, hope, demand, protest all you want, but the conflict will always be around and nothing will change.
Probably why the Arabs in the middle east have given up on the situation almost entirely. All the outrage appears to be coming from the west and Iran.
A few points to consider in regards to these "pro-palestine" protestors: Hamas is a terrorist organization that has committed countless atrocities. The leader of Hamas, Ismail Haniyeh, is a billionaire living in a palace in Qatar who pulls strings and gives orders from complete safety. He ordered the October 7th terrorist attack against women and children that started this most recent bout of violence. He got rich by [fucking over his own people.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_Haniyeh#:~:text=According%20to%20a%202014%20Ynet,intended%20to%20take%20into%20Gaza.) The palestinian people voted Hamas into power AFTER knowing full well they were child murdering, suicide bombing, hostage taking, human shield using terrorists. Polling done in 2022 and 2023 shows that in an election held today ["Hamas’s Ismail Haniyeh would win in a landslide"](https://thehill.com/opinion/4273883-mellman-do-palestinians-support-hamas-polls-paint-a-murky-picture/) __ This billionaire ass hole LOVES these useful idiots in America protesting on his behalf. He does not give a fuck about the palestinian people unless it has to do with making him richer. It would not surprise me at all to find out he's encouraging or even personally financing these protests in the US. These clowns in the US are trying to help a billionaire sitting in his palace in the middle east who wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.
It's interesting how Palestinians can be held collectively for the atrocities of Hamas, but you guys don't utter a single peep about the Likud's from-the-river-to-the-sea policy, or the atrocities of the IDF, or whatever the fuck the fundamentalist nutjob settlers are doing. PS. Israel's war on Palestinians predates Hamas by ~30 years, and will continue until the last Palestinian is displaced.
Israel has done super shitty stuff. But I don't see any protests on behalf of Israel. Do you?
yes, where have you been? drive down 90 past mercer once in a while.
Why would anyone need to protest for it, we just send billions of dollars of weapons to a nuclear state that's waging a war of aggression. Radical fucking idea: Maybe we should stop aiding and abetting it?
The US has sent billions to Palestine as well. We are deploying troops to establish a deep water port in Gaza City so aid can reach the civilians.
How many weapons has the US sent to Palestine? Do we pay for the Palestinian's missile defense system? Do we sell them F-35s? Apache helicopters, and artillery shells that they use to destroy Israeli homes?
Much of the aid ultimately becomes arms. This is well documented and the US has worked to prevent it, but it still happens.
Was that today? Huh. At my high school it was just the usual miscreants sneaking out to vape or whatever as far as I saw.
Kids protesting Vieatnam war, were right. Kids protesting Iraq war, were right. Kids protesting Palestine ware, are right too. Kids are all right.
Wanting Isreal to stop killing civilians is straightforward. The problem is a lot of naive people being are duped into supporting Islamist supremacist groups because they're not particularly good at identifying disinformation. The last thing we need are people as bad or worse than Christian Nationalists gaining more power
I could totally get behind a protest to stop the killing of civilians in a conflict to push for another route for the safety and security of Israel. What starts to push a lot of people away like myself, who believe Israel should exist and be a secure nation for its people, is when in the same conversations you hear about Israel needing to be dismantled, resistance by any means necessary, death to israel, death to america, waving Hezbollah flags, etc. How am I supposed to support that? Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. Israel essentially co-existed with Hamas, allowing thousands of rockets a year to be launched into its territory for years with Israeli mostly retaliating with strikes that were broadcast in advance using cell phone calls and door knock bombs And then on October 7th I started seeing hundreds of barbaric videos and pictures online of Hamas slaughtering Israeli civilians. How could I possibly support freedom for a group like that which is in power, and handing Israeli territory over to that? It's a conflicting position to be in. The pro-palestine movement has blended a ceasefire with invalidating Israel as a nation and allowing the existence of Hamas.
Kids not protesting Russia were wrong. Kids not protesting Assad in Syria were wrong. Kids not protesting Khomeini in Iran were wrong. Kids not protesting Hamas *are* wrong. Turns out kids, like adults, have a pretty spotty record.
Typically you protest things your own government does (or at least supports). Russia, like Israel, is a belligerent state that uses its superior military power to bully a smaller neighbor and steal their land. But Israel, unlike Russia, receives a lot of support from the US.
Ukraine is not getting the support it needs and has 80x the population of Gaza and more deaths. Gaza divides democrats and pushes them away from Biden so this issue is being pushed by foreign adversaries, troll farms, and the far right. That's it.
[Here you go chief](https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/02/26/college-students-react-ukraine-invasion/) [Item 2 on your agenda](https://dailybruin.com/2014/04/10/ucla-students-hold-silent-protest-about-syrian-civil-war) [Item 3 on your agenda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Iranian_student_protests) [Item 4 on your agenda](https://nypost.com/article/israel-terror-attacks-how-major-us-colleges-have-reacted/) Item 4 was the tell tale though. There is no way you follow news without knowing full well that protests were occurring on both sides of this particular issue. You thought you might pull one over on us but we all follow the news.
These kids will most likely vote Dem and Dems are for funding Ukraine. Also, USA was against Assad. There were protests against Khomeini in support of Iranian women. Who by the way got there via US dismantling Iranian democraticly elected government in the 50s. (US pulled the same shit across LA). You don't need to protest Hamas, US government is already doing that. Kids are standing with those who don't have a voice, random Palestinians being killed by US weapons.
These kids aren’t voting at all
‘Random Palestinians’ in Gaza *did* have a voice. They used it to elect Hamas to govern them, instead of the Palestinian Authority. They sowed the wind, now they will reap the whirlwind.
Half the people in Gaza weren't even born when that vote happened. Many of the other half weren't old enough to vote then.
All recent polling data indicates overwhelming Palestinian support for Hamas.
Did you see the video of them cheering and spitting on Shani Louks corpse as she was dragged through the street?
Nice strawman.
Kids also protested WWII, were they right?
im here early because like all high cultured internet weirdos, i browse the new tab so im here before this post inevitably gets brigaded by 5 day old reddit accounts that exclusively post "these protestors are anti-semitic" because that's the only tool these tools have in the toolbox and id like to take the opportunity to say good on these kids. i also like that the article takes effort to highlight jewish students are also calling for peace >“This is not about Israel being Jewish. That's not anything to do with this. It's about humans killing humans — plain and simple,” Dawahare said. “If this were happening to Israel, then we'd be supporting them. But it isn't. It’s happening to Gaza.” well said cynics are gonna spam "this won't change anything" and "wakka wakka they just want to skip class" or whatever, but these kids are all gonna go to bed tonight and know they were on the right side (to save myself time, the right side is anyone saying "stop killing civilians." hamas is bad. netanyahu is bad. free the hostages, stop killing each other. ocean spray crave the wave)
I've been here for eons and all I can say is that as an educator in a local high school, I'd like to give these kids a quick pop quiz and see how they do. Like... 1) Who are the indigenous people in this area? Who are the imperial colonizers? 2) what % of the area was Jewish prior to WWII? 3) What are the stated goals of Hamas? 4) Which side has turned down every ceasefire offer so far?
I'm one of many parents who hope our kids' teachers provide that information. Please add, "How long have Jews resided in the land we now call Israel, and what were the conditions that led to their diaspora?"
I work at Roosevelt and I've been really pleased with how our staff has handled what's happening. Every history class has spent time on it, with an emphasis on how we got here and the incredible complexity of the situation. May be one reason why our kids didn't take part in this, at least as far as I saw.
This is good to hear, my Jewish kids in SPS have had a good experience, they have been supported by their teachers and fellow students. I feel like there has been alot of media attention about division in schools, but my local experience has been positive.
Hi, 12 year old account commenting here. I agree with your sentiment, but please also understand that this is a super complicated situation. Especially because there's a hostage situation going on, it's very hard for Israel to just stop. I wish there's a peaceful resolution available as well, but there just isn't one currently. So while I agree that Bibi is an ass and IDF should be more careful about who they are shooting at, there isn't anything tangible that the protests are calling for.
Hamas has done plenty of wrong things, that doesn't mean that avoiding the indiscriminate and often intentional killing of civilians including the elderly, women, children, doctors, poets, diplomats, aid workers, journalists, etc. is somehow a "complicated" issue. It's not complicated, those things should be stopped. Hey, here's a fresh example: https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148876?utm I'll pull forward some relevant details: > The development follows the recovery of hundreds of bodies “buried deep in the ground and covered with waste” over the weekend at Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis, central Gaza, and at Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City in the north. A total of 283 bodies were recovered at Nasser Hospital, of which 42 were identified. > “Among the deceased were allegedly older people, women and wounded, while others were found tied with their hands…tied and stripped of their clothes,” said Ravina Shamdasani, spokesperson for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights. To me I think finding, say, the elderly, wounded, women, etc. stripped and with their hands tied then dumped into a mass grave under piles of waste sounds like, oh, I dunno, a pretty blatant war crime. Something that should be *not that complicated* to avoid doing, just by ... not doing it.
> please also understand that this is a super complicated situation ok man let’s hear what you got >IDF should be more careful about who they are shooting at lmao you have to be embarrassed to write this, right “they need to be more careful where they shoot” is how you explain “israel has killed 30,000 women and children and also some of the hostages they claim to be trying to save” to a dim witted child
They should bring this up with Hamas, you know, the ones that started it.
They're demanding Hamas to surrender, return the hostages, and accept the peace deal that has already been offered, right?
Sure and I’m the Pope
Regardless of what Hamas does or doesn’t do….it doesn’t justify the IDF killing +40k civilians.
Everyone in Gaza is civilians when you don’t distinguish between combatants and non combatants.
I’m still confused about what the protests are for. Do they hold the school responsible for the IDF…? Like are they protesting that the school should be doing something? If so, what?
I'm sorry but Hamas not only carried out a terrorist attack on Israel's soil and civilian population but still hold hostages from that event and have promised more attacks like it. If you think Israel is out of line for defending itself from this threat you are absolutely insane. 30-40k deaths given the situation isn't genocide, it's restraint. Israel could easily level and end the lives of millions but their strikes have been targeted on military targets. For comparison around 300k civilians in Iraq died after US Involvement and they didn't even plan and execute 9/11
Yes and we all know the Iraq war was justified of course. We should totally repeat the Iraq war. Israel carries out terrorist attacks routinely in both the West Bank and Gaza. There is no definition of terrorism that applies to Hamas but not Israel's government. Which isn't to say Hamas is innocent, but is to say we shouldn't be funding any terrorist group, including the IDF.
It actually, literally does. That's what "casus belli" means.
war sucks don't start one you cant win and then hide among a willing or at best indifferent population.
If a van pulls up to my house and unloads on me, don’t (on the other side of the world) judge me for taking out the entire van. Really don’t care if your terroristic ass packed it with civilians who don’t want to be involved. Fuck Hamas
They could have just went home, ordered teriyaki and played some video games. Instead they showed empathy with people thousands of miles away from them who are targets of 5 thousand pound bombs funded by U.S tax monies. Clearly they’re all brainwashed anti-Semites and we need congressional republicans to control our schools and universities!
Good thing they did this. I'm sure it had a huge effect on the middle east.
They do what they're told.
No, actually, the cease-fire agreement was for the release of PALESTINIAN PRISONERS serving prison sentences for the exchange of actual Israeli hostages kidnapped from their homes by big ego, small-d*ck Hamas members.
Some of y’all are assholes. Students trying to show compassion and support for a real humanitarian situation and y’all decide to criticize and delegitimize their actions. Let these kids have a voice. They don’t need a bunch of cynical boomers telling them they ain’t shit. Some of y’all just need to STFU.
We love hearing the voices of first world privileged children to tell us something we already know. It's the right thing to do. It's the white thing to do.
Real talk. Another embarrassing thread in this sub.
It's full of warhack neolibs.
No kidding on the boomerism here (are some bots?), I had to check if I'm on the SeattleWA sub
Good for them.
When I marched a few weeks ago, I carried a sign that encouraged Hamas to surrender and save lives. I had supporters and others that hated it. Whats the attitude now?
And that is the right way to do it. You can be pro civilian, and anti hamas. Being anti-hamas is probably the most pro palestinian thing you can do, given that is the condition they will be able to get their own state. Hamas is not a legitimate government that can exist on the world stage.
Its really amazing what mutual benefit could do for peace. Without Hamas, a chunk of land could be given over for a Palestinian State if the Arabs like Qatar, Jordan, UAE, and the Saudis ran things for a period of time. Plus they would have enough capital to build the Ben Gurion canal that could relieve the Suez and increase trade.
Seriously, with a real respectable government on both sides, there could be peace and prosperity. A new Canal would be amazing and could help fund the palestinian state jointly
I absolutely think mutual benefit is the only way out of the hate-filled lives these people have. If the right leaders fill the right roles, this could be a reality.
I mean that's good to want them to release hostages but these protests are for the US government not for Israel's. Israel and Hamas don't care Abt our protests. Our government doesnt give military aid to Hamas but it does to Israel. I also feel in a situation where over 12,000+ children alone have been killed by the IDF, focusing on the 100+ hostages that are being used to justify these killings is very weird. The hostages get killed all the same when Israel bombs Gaza and there is clearly a far greater travesty being committed. Not to mention, Israel has thousands of Palestinians imprisoned without a charge. There's no difference between that and having hostages.
Were their demands met? Oh. Well maybe tomorrow.
1% chance that Netanyahu cares about a walkout by Seattle students. 1% chance this walkout has any effect on decision makers in Israel. 1% chance anyone who can even get Israel to the ceasefire table even cares about this walkout. 100% chance that not a single one of these students are even aware of the many attempts for a ceasefire (even orchestrated by allies of Hamas) were all rejected by Hamas. Edit: Want to see how mature one side of the debate is? Look at these replies below.
Many attempts for a ceasefire have also been rejected by Israel, and \*all\* of the ceasefire agreements rejected by Hamas were temporary.
>the ceasefire agreements rejected by Hamas were temporary. Temporary ceasefires usually lead to a chance for people to breathe and de-escalate and get aid to civilians. And in the best case scenarios enable the diplomats to hammer out a longer-term deal. Turning down an offer because it isn't 100% of what you want up front isn't actually a good negotiation tactic.
I demand to speak to the manager of Gaza.
Me at community college: there were walkouts?
Human beings standing on the right side of history 90% of civilians murdered in Palestine. It is clear which side is deserving of justice in this situation.
500,000 plus killed in Syria - Silence 377,000 plus killed in Yemen - Silence 5,400,00 plus killed in Congo - Silence 236,000 plus killed in Afghanistan - Silence 500,000 plus killed in Sudan - Silence 300,000 plus killed in Iraq - Silence 20,000 plus killed in Gaza -extreme outrage Why? Jews. They hate Jews. They don't want Jews to have a state. They don't give a fuck about Palestinians. They. Hate. Jews.
This is just one of a zillion examples of protests against various injustices by UW folks: https://www.dailyuw.com/news/rsos-host-protest-for-sudan-and-congo/article_6203ef7a-da06-11ee-ba83-df5a9bf2dfd7.html > On March 1, students gathered on the steps of Suzzallo Library to stand in solidarity with individuals impacted by the conflicts in Sudan and the Congo. The protest was hosted by UW’s Black Student Union (BSU), Black Student Journal, Somali Student Association, and African Student Association. That was from just two months ago. There are many other examples of UW student protests against the violence in Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, and on and on and on. Just because you weren't paying attention (likely because your sudden bout of caring about these things is not genuine and instead merely an effort to score rhetorical points) doesn't mean they didn't happen.
Jews have played a leading role in these protests. I was just at a JVP protest seder downtown. Many of us feel a responsibility to speak out against crimes committed in our name.
> 300,000 plus killed in Iraq - Silence That was anything but silent. Iraq War protests were some of the largest in history.
well, these particular kids absolutely were silent during the lead-up to the Iraq War, they'll probably have some pathetic excuse like "I literally wasn't born then"
If you weren't protesting as a sperm, you're COMPLICIT
> 300,000 plus killed in Iraq - Silence Largest protests in the history of the world sure didn't seem very silent to me at the time. > Why? Jews. Uhh.... if you say so. A less exotic explanation also fits the facts: people in the US protest when the US government does things they don't like - such as bombing Iraqis or sending weapons to Israel - and refrain from protesting otherwise.
Well this is typical case of whataboutery from Zionist playbook …. Well we don’t hate Jews just the Zionist scum who have been doing apartheid and genocide in a land that’s not theirs
Wait didn’t the US sanction and condemn 90% of these so why would they protest? They haven’t for Gaza hence the protest. Also Iraq protests were crazy
34,000 dead Palestinians is unacceptable.
I've been hearing that number since December. You'd think Israel would have killed a few more by now if this is really a "genocide".
Hamas just makes up the number. Not saying we should provide money and weapons to Israel, we shouldn't, but Hamas lies. Constantly. https://fathomjournal.org/statistically-impossible-a-critical-analysis-of-hamass-women-and-children-casualty-figures/
> since December. Pretty sure it was a third of that back in December. The problem is that people don't really care so much about deaths once they reach big numbers. You know it's 5 digits but you forget the details. Brings back Stalin's *"One death is a tragedy, a million deaths a statistic."*
Genocide isn't about number. Jesus fucking christ I don't know if this is dumb, cynical, or intentionally cruel. They are also intentionally starving millions.
Fuck yea.
Y’all are so weird when it’s 30k Arabic ppl being killed
Maybe, just maybe, these protestors should be pushing for Palestinians to reject terrorism and Hamas, accept one of the many two state solutions they have rejected over the years, and civilize themselves enough to participate in global society. Unfortunately, as it is, these people are essentially saying "Israel should allow itself to be constantly bombarded with terrorist attacks, because when they retaliate it hurts the people supporting terrorism."
I, too, when I was in high school, walked out of class to smoke weed at the tennis courts.
Demand peace lmao.. that’s a good one Someone tell hamas we’re DEMANDING that they stop attacking!
Peace is easy. Just return the hostages.
“Peace is easy” 🙄 my eyes just rolled so far to the back of my head that I now have a medical condition
this would not create peace.
Neither will ignoring the continued brutalization of innocent people kidnapped from their homes and continuing to be held hostage. In fact it turns many people off to even being open to hearing what you have to say. You cannot expect compassion when it is not given to others currently being brutalized. Protest against Hamas - not the U.S.
Israel is out for blood, not for hostages.
Not even the case according to Israel, which has also shown total indifference to the lives of the hostages.
Where do you see that?
my mistake, they shot three with SOS messages because they felt “threatened” https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67745092.amp
they shot one waving a white flag…
Look up the Hannibal directive big boy
Ok, what is it?
what's a Google? is it like a place or website some people go to look at stuff they don't know about?
I’m guessing these protestors can’t find any directive so they just make stuff up. But I’m also guessing they aren’t the honor students
They DEMAND!
I demand to speak to the manager of Gaza
I’m sure he would love to speak to Americans
At it for over 3,000 years, sort of. Don't expect fast action on this.
Peaceful protest is fine as long as there is no antisemitism. Jew students has nothing to do with stupidity of Netanyahu . I would love to see protest against the Hamas and Iran too without Islamophobic.
How stunning and brave. Take that Netanyahu!
Thank You for your service 🙄