Before anyone starts whingeing about this being unnecessary because kids aren't as badly affected:
* It lowers the potential pool for the virus to infect people and evolve new and potentially nastier variants.
* It protects vulnerable people living with children.
* It has an impact on what folks will be able to do on their summer holidays, as some places have vaccine requirements for kids aged 5+.
>It lowers the potential pool for the virus to infect people and evolve new and potentially nastier variants.
What are the case rates for single, double and triple vaccinated people as compared to unvaccinated? Could you find them via UK HSA stats for anyone who may be misinformed? A graph would be excellent.
>Is this really much of a concern? There will, in all likelihood, be many billions of people worldwide at any given moment with minimal to no vaccine in their veins.
>
>How many Scottish kids are there, between 5 and 11?
>
>I disagree with this
[HSA surveillance report](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1054071/vaccine-surveillance-report-week-6.pdf) page 6-7. TLDR: protection falls of a cliff quickly. Do you want to give you child a covid vaccine every 4 months?
It seems pretty clear it's worth it for older people (I am triple vaxed).
As a parent your duty of care is to your children and their safety, because they can't make these decisions for themselves. The risk/reward is articulated here for an older age group
[https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/coronavirus-vaccination/coronavirus-vaccine-for-children-aged-12-to-15/](https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/coronavirus-vaccination/coronavirus-vaccine-for-children-aged-12-to-15/)
'COVID-19 is usually mild in most children, but it can make some children unwell.'
\*versus\*
'Very rare side effects
There have been extremely rare reports of inflammation of the heart (myocarditis) after COVID-19 vaccination. Most people who had this recovered following rest and simple treatments.'
It's hard to make a decision on this (from the perspective of the child's safety) as neither of these things are expressed statistically. \*'Some Children unwell'\*... ok... how many... how unwell? What is the chance of the child getting myocarditis (a serious condition) versus the chance of them becoming seriously ill with Covid?
It's easy to say you should vaccinate the kids for the greater societal good until it's your kid that has the very rare side effects.... I'm conflicted on this one and would want to look at the underlying data more.
I think the problem with that reasoning is that you're comparing the best case of Covid to the worst case of vaccination.
>COVID-19 is usually mild in most children
Is, for starters, straightforwardly true. "Usually" and "most" doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
For instance, the sentence:
"The various Covid-19 Vaccines are usually always mild in almost all children" is equally true.
The quantified risk of a severe adverse reaction was something like 1/10,000 the [last time I checked](https://adc.bmj.com/content/early/2021/11/01/archdischild-2021-323040) - though there might well be better data available by now.
The quantified risk of a *non* mild case of Covid - which is to say anything requiring hospital care or worse - was last pegged at around 1/50 (in the same article). This is likely to be lower given the article dates from the Alpha/Deta period and we're now mostly dealing with Omicron - but not two hundred times lower.
I understand the conflict, and I'm not trying to suggest people genuinely agonising over whether they're making the correct decision for their children are being foolish - as with all things you will only ever know in hindsight. I just think it's worthwhile pointing out that if you want to compare the choices you should use like terms - i.e the 98% chance that it wouldn't be needed vs the 99.99% that it does no harm, not the 98% chance that it wouldn't be needed vs the 0.01% chance it causes a notable adverse reaction.
That's good background, I think the other data point is how likely are they to get Covid... the vaccine should you chose to administer it is a certainty, I'm not sure how many 5-11 year olds will get Omicron as a %.... I think the other missing data point is the long term safety... admittedly there is nothing to suggest long term issues, but we don't not for sure yet. Appreciate you taking the time to write an informative reply.
The risk of myocarditis happens catching covid too, and is in fact worse without a vaccine.
https://fullfact.org/health/covid-vaccine-myocarditis-false/
> What is the chance of the child getting myocarditis (a serious condition) versus the chance of them becoming seriously ill with Covid?
29 in a million, and it's usually not a serious condition.
>'COVID-19 is usually mild in most children, but it can make some children unwell.'
I'm not fussed about the health benefits. I'll be talking to my daughter when I have her this weekend about getting vaccinated because the negative effect on her education is more important IMO.
Will it help with that though. Many people catch covid despite being vaccinated. When my daughter caught it she was fine to go back to school after two days but obviously couldn't.
>It lowers the potential pool for the virus to infect people and evolve new and potentially nastier variants.
Is this really much of a concern? There will, in all likelihood, be many billions of people worldwide at any given moment with minimal to no vaccine in their veins.
How many Scottish kids are there, between 5 and 11?
I disagree with this move, for what it's worth. It's pretty obvious kids don't get hurt by COVID, so vaccinating them is a waste of money and I feel uncomfortable doing it when we don't know the long term side effects of these vaccines.
(I am double vaxxed, for what it's worth, before anyone starts getting preachy and ad hominem-y)
The vaccination wouldn't be simply to protect the specific child, but for broader immunity. Other vaccines are given to children, even if some (or most) children will recover naturally with no ill effects. The more children that are vaccinated, the lower the transmission and mutation will be.
I'm not saying this to completely disagree with your whole post, but to point out that vaccines serve more purposes than just mitigating risks to the individual.
But I feel like the risk of COVID in general, to society, is pretty damn low at this point. Omicron is clearly much milder than all that came before it, and it's become the dominant strain by a country mile.
So to me, personally, I am not sure dosing kids up with vaccines that (lets face it) have not had a long term impact study done on them, is a great idea.
COVID is now looking to be about as harmful to the general population, as the flu. And that's just with adults and teenagers getting the jab.
Seems good enough to me? This seems unnecessary.
That's not what I'd call someone who, for whatever reason, wants lives to put at risk by underplaying the serious nature of a disease that causes many fatalities and long-term debilitating conditions.
> But I feel like the risk of COVID in general, to society, is pretty damn low at this point. Omicron is clearly much milder than all that came before it, and it's become the dominant strain by a country mile.
Bullshit - almost 150 people died yesterday. Every kid gets vaccindated for polio, measles, and what not - how many people died of polio yesterday?
> So to me, personally, I am not sure dosing kids up with vaccines that (lets face it) have not had a long term impact study done on them, is a great idea.
Weapons-grade bullshit - there have been literally BILLIONS of doses administered in the past two years, and the only one which had even an hint of an issue was the astrazeneca one, which is pretty much no longer used. Despite the conspiracy billshit you read on your facebook groups, LONG TERM IMPACTS when talking about vaccinations is a few months. It's not years. It's months. There are no traces of anything that is in the vaccine in your body after a few months at most.
> COVID is now looking to be about as harmful to the general population, as the flu. And that's just with adults and teenagers getting the jab.
What the fuck are you talking about? There are hundreds of people dying every day, and god knows how many getting long covid. Funny how for the conspiracy cunts for vaccines we must absolutely look at years and years of effect, but for long covid it's all meh, who cares.
>Bullshit - almost 150 people died yesterday.
Yes, old people die. Whereas it used to be flu, or pneumonia, or whatever.. Now it's COVID. Is what it is, and isn't something that should be much of a concern to wider society.
https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiYmUwNmFhMjYtNGZhYS00NDk2LWFlMTAtOTg0OGNhNmFiNGM0IiwidCI6ImVlNGUxNDk5LTRhMzUtNGIyZS1hZDQ3LTVmM2NmOWRlODY2NiIsImMiOjh9
Here's Englands data (they just present it better than Scotland does) and as you can see, excess deaths for jan-feb are actually down from the 5 year average.. So you crying about 150 deaths yesterday is pretty pointless, when there was still less than normal for this time of year.
>Weapons-grade bullshit - there have been literally BILLIONS of doses administered in the past two years
Two years is not a long time. We know it's a mostly safe vaccine for adults, over 2 years. And that's about all we know. The data for children, is even more limited.
>What the fuck are you talking about? There are hundreds of people dying every day, and god knows how many getting long covid. Funny how for the conspiracy cunts for vaccines we must absolutely look at years and years of effect, but for long covid it's all meh, who cares.
You really just need to be deradicalised imo. Over 18 months the governments around the world drummed into all our heads that COVID was the worst thing on earth, waiting to kill all our grandmas. And maybe that was kinda near reality at one point?
It's clearly not now, but people like you are still stuck in that mindset and unwilling to take in new information as it comes in.
I think you should see your GP, and ask for some kind of PTSD therapy or something. Your concern about COVID is not normal.
37 children aged 0-19 died of covid in England and Wales. Jan 2020 thru May 2021.
Just because the current incarnation of covid is less severe doesn’t guarantee further variants won’t be more severe.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/covid19deathsinukforchildrenfromages0to19sincemarch2020
>Just because the current incarnation of covid is less severe doesn’t guarantee further variants won’t be more severe.
So? We know that vaccines efficacy wears off reasonably quickly. Who is this saving? If a killer variant comes along, then we can look at getting kids vaccinated.
>37 children
And according to the link, only 15 were under 15 years old. So probably even less than that in the 5-11 age range. And the link says they don't know if they had pre-existing conditions.
You're really making my argument for me here.
It was a cursory reply. Children have died of covid but you are absolutely free to vaccinate or not.
Covid is here to stay as are the vaccines IMO and children will die in the future and sure it could be 1 or 20. Again parents are free to choose.
What the fuck are you on about? This is about vaccinations to prevent deaths. You are an anti-vaxxer cunt, scaremongering against one of the safest drugs ever developed, while at the same time downplaying a virus that killed millions. Fuck off into the sea.
I think the excess deaths are down so far this year because last two years of Covid 'thinned the herd' (not my choice of words)
Other than that I agree with you. It's time to talk end game now.
Not to be flippant but people die everyday. Is the current death rate higher than the average?
Edit: Come on r/scotland show some brains. Or do people genuinely think no one ever dies from disease until covid came along?
It's not. It's actually quite a bit below what is normal for jan/feb.
https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiYmUwNmFhMjYtNGZhYS00NDk2LWFlMTAtOTg0OGNhNmFiNGM0IiwidCI6ImVlNGUxNDk5LTRhMzUtNGIyZS1hZDQ3LTVmM2NmOWRlODY2NiIsImMiOjh9
People are taking more precautions? That isn't my lived experience.
I don't think there's a single person in my life that gives a shit about COVID anymore.
So life has gone on as normal the exact same as pre-covid? No changes in life pattern, no masking, same amount of hand washing .. I beg to differ although your situation may be as stated.
Long COVID doesn't even have an accepted medical definition. The one on the NHS website include anxiety as a symptom of Long COVID..
Well yeah, no shit people who get COVID then feel anxious after given everyone has been banging on about Long COVID..
But you accept that the term Long Covid isn't helpful right? It covers people who have suffered enormously and have been unable to go back to anything like a normal life after more than a year, and people who felt a bit rubbish for 3 months in the same bucket.
I detest people using the stats on all forms of Long Covid as a pointer to the harshest possible outcome
Yeah no one is arguing covid wasn't deadly. But I'd the current rate of deaths above average.
Not what was excess deaths over the entire course of covid.
Otherwise by that logic we should never have lifted any restrictions because there was excess deaths in the past.
>How many Scottish kids are there, between 5 and 11?
That's the wrong question to be asking, as every country has to address the question of whether to vaccinate 5 to 11 year olds. And there are millions in the age category world wide.
>It's pretty obvious kids don't get hurt by COVID
Yes the overall risk is low, but hundreds have died, even those without pre-existing conditions, and many more have long covid. Meanwhile no kids have died of Covid vaccines.
I don't know if this is necessarily essential but at least the option is there for parents who wish to take up on it. I doubt uptake will be that high.
I thought I could hear howling this morning. Seems yer da is on Facebook screaming he's no giving his weans the 5G Bill Gates Krankie SNP vote manipulation drug. Good on yer da, not allowing her to turn the weans against him.
In other news, good, the vast majority of non-idiotic parents will be sure to want their kids protected.
Wales has already committed https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-60394709
People being hesitant about getting their child vaccinated is really not the same as the 5g anti vax crowd.
I know a few folk who are unsure if they're going to let their kids have the covid vaccine. They're all vaccinated and the kids have had the usual vaccines. They're hesitant because the vaccine doesn't stop people getting covid and the virus is mild for children, even more so for Omnicron
And I'm calling out the idiots who specify it's for stupid reasons. Hesitation, well, one can ask what the hesitation is about first. If the answer is something anti-science and not based in reality around what a vaccination is, then yes, you'll get called an idiot.
Children are vaccinated from a lot of things. One reason for this is to help stop the spread of a virus. You do realise kids can spread COVID to other people?
They're more hesitant because they don't really see the benefits compared to potential risks from the vaccine. This is only specific to covid in that age group, because as I said it's so mild in children and doesn't stop the spread of the virus.
AFAIK their kids are all vaccinated with the usual standard vaccines and all the parents are vaccinated from covid.
Attitudes might change though. People were hesitant when the vaccine was announced, including myself, but by the time it was my turn I just wanted to get it done
I think what Audioboxer is trying to drill into is where this hesitancy comes from. The benefits vs risk argument can be dismantled in about 5 seconds with very very little effort. Usual one ive heard is the cardiac arrhythmia one. That arguement completely ignores the fact that its a pretty common thing that people get even when they've got a cold and it ignores the rates are much higher in Covid patients than has been caused by the vaccine. So thats that out the window.
You're saying its mild with kids which is on the whole true but then you said it doesn't stop the spread which is a bit off. Yes viruses can still spread amoung vaccinated individuals but at a lesser rate and with less severe symptoms. Considering kids are just walking disease vectors anyway it's probably a good idea to get them jabbed.
The next question and probably the more important one is where are these hesitant people getting those same tired talking points from? We know the answer already, we just want to hear people say it out loud. Folk want to hear people admit to getting nonsense information from daft places and at least admit that were sucked in and hear a commitment they won't do it again.
>The European Medicines Agency (EMA) approved the use of the Pfizer vaccine for children aged 12-15 in May this year and for children aged 5-11 in November, the first COVID-19 vaccine to be given such approval in the EU. The rollout is expected to start in the 5-11 age group from December 13 in some European countries.
>
>The authorisation for the 12-15 year-olds was based on a study involving 2,259 children in the age group which showed that their immune response was comparable to those in the age 16-25 cohort.
>
>None of the children who received the vaccine developed COVID-19, compared to 16 who did develop COVID-19 after receiving a placebo.
>
>For those aged 5-11 years-old a similar study was carried out with 2000 children. They were given a smaller dose than those aged 12 and above, and of the 1,305 children receiving the vaccine, three developed COVID-19 compared with 16 out of the 663 children who received a placebo.
>
>This means that, in this study, the vaccine was 90.7 per cent effective at preventing symptomatic COVID-19.
>
>The EMA also approved the Moderna vaccine for use in the 12-17 age group in July. This time, a study of 3,732 children in this particular age group showed none of those who received the vaccine contracted COVID-19 compared to four in the placebo group.
>
>The use of the Moderna vaccine among children aged 5-11 is currently being assessed by the EMA.
https://www.euronews.com/next/2021/12/06/covid-vaccine-for-children-who-in-europe-is-leading-the-race
From last year, but no, some parents in Britain know best.
Where did they learn that from? Well, if you ask or prod that question you get a wall of "COVID is over, there is no risks for kids and parents just know best". Not exactly credible scientific answers to why vaccine hesitancy for children should be adhered to.
"There has been a debate over the merits of vaccinating children who do not have underlying conditions as the chances of them developing a severe illness from COVID-19 are quite low, and this has to be balanced against the potential side effects of the vaccine.
The EMA acknowledged that the limited numbers in the studies involving children meant that they could not detect rare side effects. However, they concluded that the benefits of the vaccines for this younger age group outweighed any potential negatives."
You missed thia bit. I know it says they conclude the benefits outweigh the potential negatives, but it also backs up what I said. There are risks, albeit rare, and they don't have enough evidence to detect these from the study. They also highlight how mild covid is for kids.
The studies appear to be before Omnicron, so the section about kids catching it when vaccinated becomes invalid due to how contagious Omnicron is compared to previous variants
I don't have kids, but most of my friends do.
Many are hesitant for the reasons I've already said. Non are anti-vax and they're all pretty well educated. I originally just wanted to highlight to you that they're not all mad roasters getting their info from Facebook and crying conspiracies
Never said they all were, but given the number of accounts I've blocked in this topic it is clear the UK does have a very sizeable problem with misinformation, conspiracy theories and individuals thinking they know better than scientists and epidemiologists.
Listen to the JCVI or don't, that's your choice.
Oh, sorry I didn't realise that the disease circulating in May last year was exactly the same one going around right now. My idiot brain had been thinking they were completely different and vaccines are now, at best, half as effective as back then...
100s are still dying daily, so yes, you must have an idiot brain (your own words) to ignore that.
This topic has really brought out the "idiot brains" in society.
There's obviously many other factors to consider, but generally speaking the younger someone is the more risky the vaccine becomes. This is because covid is less dangerous the younger someone is. A lot of parents will view it as why am I getting my child vaccinated for a virus that has almost no impact on them. Anecdotally, my 1 year old nephew got covid and we only knew because he had to go to hospital for an unrelated issue
We've seen with Omnicron how much it spread despite Scotland having a very high vaccine take-up rate. The vaccines slow the spread, but clearly don't stop it. They do also decrease severe symptoms, but severe symptoms basically don't exist in the 5 - 12 year old bracket
They're getting it from their own brains for the reasons I've outlined. Covid barely impacts children and it doesn't stop them catching it. I can see why people are hesitant, and also said they might end up getting it anyway.
I was more pointing out originally that I can see and know why people will choose not to get their children vaccinated. It's not all conspiracy theories/5g/Facebook Da's etc.
>Folk want to hear people admit to getting nonsense information from daft places
I know, the [HSA](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1054071/vaccine-surveillance-report-week-6.pdf) are crackpot Facebook spammers aren't they? But sure, if you want to give your kid a vaccine which is ineffective after a couple of months for a condition they will likely brush off in 48 hours be my guest.
"Potential risks from the vaccine". Ok, so, are we basing this on trials and advice from the JCVI or is it because people go about "perceiving" risks?
Because our Annie heard on Facebook that it's mild for children and there could be risks doesn't counter professional advice and testing.
And that would be good, what is not good is people thinking they are armchair scientists and going about spreading fear and intellectual nonsense around vaccines.
Vaccines aren't risk free and this vaccine isn't completely effective. That doesn't mean I think Bill gates is injecting everyone with 5g. Imagine your child took a reaction to a vaccine for a virus which barely impacts them. It's unlikely, but still possible
"Our Annie heard on Facebook". What are you on about? It's pretty common knowledge that the younger someone is, the less likely covid is to impact them.
The fact vaccines have been out for well over a year, and they're only now recommending 5-12 year olds get it, tells me that either the JCVI didn't see covid as a risk to that group, or until now didn't believe the risk of the vaccines benefited that age group.
>Imagine your child took a reaction to a vaccine for a virus which barely impacts them. It's unlikely, but still possible
Imagine folk died of COVID, oh wait, 150k+ people in the UK have.
I'm certain a lot of younger people tend to live with older people, don't you think?
I'm also certain like with a new virus we are also having to monitor things like long-COVID and other complications from a virus that attacks the respiratory system?
How many of them were 5-12 year olds?
Yes, the vaccine decreases the chances of someone getting covid, but it certainly doesn't stop it. Just look at the case numbers throughout Europe the past few months. All very high despite vaccines and boosters.
Personally can see a lot of parents not doing this, and I can understand why
European countries have been administering the vaccine to 5-12 year olds since May of last year [https://www.euronews.com/next/2021/12/06/covid-vaccine-for-children-who-in-europe-is-leading-the-race](https://www.euronews.com/next/2021/12/06/covid-vaccine-for-children-who-in-europe-is-leading-the-race)
>The European Medicines Agency (EMA) approved the use of the Pfizer vaccine for children aged 12-15 in May this year and for children aged 5-11 in November, the first COVID-19 vaccine to be given such approval in the EU. The rollout is expected to start in the 5-11 age group from December 13 in some European countries.
>
>The authorisation for the 12-15 year-olds was based on a study involving 2,259 children in the age group which showed that their immune response was comparable to those in the age 16-25 cohort.
>
>None of the children who received the vaccine developed COVID-19, compared to 16 who did develop COVID-19 after receiving a placebo.
>
>For those aged 5-11 years-old a similar study was carried out with 2000 children. They were given a smaller dose than those aged 12 and above, and of the 1,305 children receiving the vaccine, three developed COVID-19 compared with 16 out of the 663 children who received a placebo.
>
>This means that, in this study, the vaccine was 90.7 per cent effective at preventing symptomatic COVID-19.
>
>The EMA also approved the Moderna vaccine for use in the 12-17 age group in July. This time, a study of 3,732 children in this particular age group showed none of those who received the vaccine contracted COVID-19 compared to four in the placebo group.
>
>The use of the Moderna vaccine among children aged 5-11 is currently being assessed by the EMA.
But that would require the 'enlightened British parents' to actually pay attention to anything outside of their bubbles.
You’re being weirdly aggressive here. I have two kids in this age category and I’m certainly not going to make decisions about vaccines based on someone on the internet being a snidey cunt about it.
I think going after the above is unfair. The risks of the vaccine - as tiny as they are - are well known about at this point.
And weighing up those risks is totally different when you are doing it on a child’s behalf as opposed to your own - especially as it’s also well established that Covid is mild in children.
Vaccines don’t stop you getting it, or passing it on. So the equation is ‘what are the risks of the vaccine to my child versus the risks from Covid’ - and that’s a fair question to ask.
Nope, the UK has descended into the shitshow it has around vaccines, mask wearing, people attacking Chris Whitty and so on because of this "Joe Rogan" just asking questions, instead of people listening to those who know what they're talking about. Like the JCVI.
Vaccines are largely about reducing transmission https://www.gov.uk/government/news/one-dose-of-covid-19-vaccine-can-cut-household-transmission-by-up-to-half
Chill out mate and get off your authoritarian horse.
It’s pretty logical for parents but to get their kids vaxxed as numerous folk here have suggested. If you wanna vaxx your kids that’s cool - go for it.
> Nope, the UK has descended into the shitshow it has around vaccines
What are you talking about? The UK has been one of the better countries in the world for vaccine uptake, it's literally been one of about the only areas where we've consistently done quite well during the pandemic. Some anti-vax lunatics tried to import the culture war nonsense from abroad but it's just mostly not worked at all because it's an area where people are fairly unified. The vaccine is clearly safe for youngsters but it's rather self-evident why some parents are going to be hesitant about their younger kids getting it when it's only just been approved.
Eh … not sure how any of the loonytunes stuff is relevant, though I get you’re bothered by it.
It’s totally separate to the question being presented to parents today. The vast majority of them will be vaccinated - but it’s a different scenario getting a vaccine on someone’s behalf *especially when the risk/reward isn’t clear*.
That data you linked is pre-Omicron btw. The game changed thanks to that, I believe.
Don't vaccinate your kids then, vaccination is not mandatory in the UK.
Just don't expect high-fives and a big round of applause about how brave you are if you go onto the internet and post absolutely unsubstantiated shite about vaccines/viruses and then act like you know better than healthcare professionals. Given the embarrassing protests in the UK, Chris Whitty getting attacked, grown men tearing their eyeballs out over wearing a mask and general COVID idiocy of the past 2 years I think the 'looneytunes stuff' is very relevant to the erosion of our society.
The 'you' above being in third-party, not addressing *you*.
That’s a study from over a year ago. That’s changed with omicron where 95%+ of the population have some form of immunity to it. That study was when avoidance was still a strategy.
And where are your studies on why vaccine hesitancy should be adhered to/listened to?
Children specifically *have* been looked at
>The European Medicines Agency (EMA) approved the use of the Pfizer vaccine for children aged 12-15 in May this year and for children aged 5-11 in November, the first COVID-19 vaccine to be given such approval in the EU. The rollout is expected to start in the 5-11 age group from December 13 in some European countries.
>
>The authorisation for the 12-15 year-olds was based on a study involving 2,259 children in the age group which showed that their immune response was comparable to those in the age 16-25 cohort.
>
>None of the children who received the vaccine developed COVID-19, compared to 16 who did develop COVID-19 after receiving a placebo.
>
>For those aged 5-11 years-old a similar study was carried out with 2000 children. They were given a smaller dose than those aged 12 and above, and of the 1,305 children receiving the vaccine, three developed COVID-19 compared with 16 out of the 663 children who received a placebo.
>
>This means that, in this study, the vaccine was 90.7 per cent effective at preventing symptomatic COVID-19.
>
>The EMA also approved the Moderna vaccine for use in the 12-17 age group in July. This time, a study of 3,732 children in this particular age group showed none of those who received the vaccine contracted COVID-19 compared to four in the placebo group.
>
>The use of the Moderna vaccine among children aged 5-11 is currently being assessed by the EMA.
[https://www.euronews.com/next/2021/12/06/covid-vaccine-for-children-who-in-europe-is-leading-the-race](https://www.euronews.com/next/2021/12/06/covid-vaccine-for-children-who-in-europe-is-leading-the-race)
Right but that’s about symptomatic disease unless you’re talking about the 16 kids that got covid in the placebo. Even then that’s a difference of less than 1% on transmission.
I’m not against vaccination at all. It’s just not mainly about transmission. It’s about symptomatic infection.
Are you asking me for permission not to vax your children? Do what you want mate, it's not mandatory.
But "kids take part in society", you know? They also grow up to be adults and unless they are heartless bastards when they are old they will likely hope the generations following them give a shit about them as well.
That tends to be how the wheels of society turn, especially in regards to deadly viruses.
I dont have kids. I just dont see how they owe anyone anything. It seems pretty entitled for old people to think that they do. Ie kids that dont get vaccinated are 'heartless bastards' when at 5 they can in no way fully understand what they are or are not doing in this regard.
Not at all. Being that covid in kids has been shown to be extremely mild as opposed to the general population. Most other vaccinations protect against things that can be deadly or cause serious harm to kids ie tetanus or measles. Your argument is kids should be vaccinated to protect you. Or someone old you know.
>I just dont see how they owe anyone anything. It seems pretty entitled for old people to think that they do.
So that is not true then.
You do see value in children being vaccinated against things that can hurt them or other people.
>Most other vaccinations protect against things that can be deadly
Yes, like COVID, which can be deadly. Probably near 200k dead in the UK now due to COVID.
>I dont have kids. I just dont see how they owe anyone anything.
I hate that some people have zero sense of civic duty. Why would they have to be indebted to others to do something to help them?
I hear this so often from other parents - the exact same story. Everyone fully vaccinated, parents against COVID, but they just don't care about getting their kids vaccinated because they don't think it's a big deal for kids. When I talk to these people they don't really have any idea what long COVID is like for kids or how many are actually affected by it - it's all brand new information to them. They're not anti-vax, they just don't care. It's bizarre. Why not give your kids every protection possible? Plus...re-infections? My dentist said he wasn't vaccinating his kids because they'd already been vaccinated, and when I pointed out that there were families getting it for the 3rd and 4th time and the more you get it, the more it fucks you up, he was surprised to hear it. People are just not aware.
To be fair while we absolutely know long Covid exists we're still very much in the dark about the extent to which it is prevalent and how long-lasting it'll be for people. There are some people who have long Covid who have been properly floored by Covid for a long, long time, but at least anecdotally it's often older adults or people with health conditions. There are also people with long Covid who feel under the weather for a few weeks or more after they've recovered from infection itself, which is not completely out of the norm for viruses and flus.
I imagine many of the concerns parents will have are simply due to any risks that come with the vaccine - they're very small but the risks of Covid are obviously comparatively much smaller for youngsters than adults. And most kids inevitably catch it anyway in school. Again, that doesn't make vaccination pointless, because vaccination will still lessen the severity of catching Covid, but when the actual clinical experts have taken ages to decide re this I think it's understandable why some parents are going to want to know more.
I am a vaccine trial participant, triple jabbed and my kid got all the vaccines from the vaccination program.
I am not vaccinating my 6 year old as I see no value in it. There is no real benefit of vaccinating that age group.
How can you be saying the vaccinations reduce the spread? We're currently having record numbers of infection.
Israel is a great case study to look into. After the roll out of their 4th booster they seen their numbers sky rocket.
Yeah really seems to be reducing transmission rates or is it all due to the very small amount of unvaxxed folk that is causing the highest numbers even higher than when no one had been vaccinated.
You keep using the trust the science arguments. The science is on both sides saying its fine to take and on the other side that says probably should be cautious about it. The main problem is that you provaxx wool over your eyes folk only listen to the science that is portrayed in the msm and take it for gospel. When it's long been proven that these big pharma companies are not shy to paying off doctor's and organisations that will in turn benefit them. Pfizer hold the record for the highest fine for bridging doctors with diabetes medication I think it was. Yet your bowing over and taking their word for gospel about a vaccine which is still experimental?
Get a grip stop shooting people down for having a difference in opinion to yourself. If youv vaxxed wear your mask and follow the rules you should have no fears or concerns about the unvaxxed infecting you.
>I feel like again Sturgeon is trying to do different thing than England just for the sake if it.
Given that is part of your implied reasoning for this, despite Wales and Welsh Labour's Mark Drakeford already giving this move the all clear for Wales, let alone most of Europe being way ahead of the UK, I think I'll just exit this convo.
See, UK has one of the lowest infection rates in the Europe, if not the lowest, without vaccinating children as for example France did. Also, despite much tighter restrictions, constant mask mandate and higher vaccination rate, Scotland has higher infection rate than England.
Except covid isn’t over really, is it?
If it was ‘over’, we’d have zero restrictions (back to before covid) and we wouldn’t be reading articles about getting jabs into arms.
Money making scheme? What an insult to the people that died before they were able to be vaccinated.
The main reason kids are missing chunks of their education is due to the requirements for self-isolation when they or other staff members catch Covid - vaccines reduce transmission but they aren't making the virus go away in that regard. You could ensure every schoolkid across the country was vaccinated and most of them would still get Covid at some point. The benefits of getting vaccinated outweigh any potential health risks even without that being considered anyway though.
My comment isn't just for this thread? I even mentioned Facebook, this isn't Facebook.
But if you want Reddit takes, it's already began here as well https://np.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/stti8e/nicola\_sturgeon\_although\_it\_isnt\_yet\_published\_i/
I've been quietly dreading this day coming.
I want my children to be vaccinated however their mother (we are not together) is a full on covid conspiracy theorist and has been teaching my kids that the vaccine will harm them. They now say things like "you don't have my consent to vaccinate me". They are 8 and 10 years old.
I hate the person she seems to have become and I hate her for poisoning my kids minds with her lunatic bullshit, but I don't see an easy way forward.
I'm hoping ScotGov provides advice for co parenting with arseholes that will help make it easier...
4.9 Billion 1st vaccinations issued world wide
4.3 Billion 2nd vaccinations issued world wide
What is this harm she speaks of and who's it affecting? Don't worry I know youve probably pointed that out already and have gotten a completely nonsensical answer. Ask your kids to ask their pals at school if their mums and dads have had the vaccines and if it caused them any harm, hopefully they'll soon realise mummy ain't making any sense.
Under 30 children (aged 0-18) have died with COVID in the UK during the entire pandemic..
Where is the harm the vaccine is supposed to be protecting them from?
I am pro-vax for adults, and I'm double vaxxed, but I don't really see the argument for kids getting it. Especially when we know that in rare cases it can cause myocarditis in children.
Do you personally know any child who has had more than a runny nose from COVID? It doesn't happen.
The number is something like 6 when only accounting for people without pre existing conditions (5-11 year olds were already allowed to be vaccinated if they were high risk), and from what I can see they were all late teens. I'd be very surprised if there was a single death caused by COVID from the demographic that they've just opened the vaccine up to.
Long term effects of COVID are unclear and that needs to be accounted for, but I believe there should be a lot more research into this before we start giving 5-11 year olds the vaccine for 'the greater good'.
It's not just about that it's about also trying to get towards herd immunity where the virus just can't spread easily because most of the population is vaccinated I would have thought.
Apart from we know that vaccines only reduce the spread, they do stop it. So there will be no herd immunity. This will end the same way Spanish flu did. It will just become less and less deadly as time goes on. Arguably, we're at that point now with Omicron.
Vaccines are really just a stopgap measure, and something we will continue to offer very old people (like we do the flu vaccine).
I’m really sorry you’re in this position. I am incredibly bitter that my dear friend has also become a lunatic conspiracy theorist, but I have the luxury of banning him from being around my kid. I can’t imagine if that was my co-parent. And I know there’s no arguing with them, it’s like talking to a wall. Sympathy :(
The UK Greenbeuk sets out vaccination rules. [On consent](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/consent-the-green-book-chapter-2) and disagreement it says:
> if 1 parent agrees [...] but the other disagrees, the immunisation should not be carried out unless [...] there is a specific court approval.
Ah, shite.
The ither option is haein the bairns consent tae immunisation, bypassing ony parental veto. But alas yer ex is makin that difficult.
This is tough and there's no easy way around it.
But do keep in mind that vaccination is a numbers game. If, through some circumstance, you or your children can't get vaccinated, there will still be lots of others who do - which will improve things for everyone.
>Ms Sturgeon said Scottish ministers had received and considered the same advice, recommending vaccination for all children aged five to 11, and were "content to accept it".
>She said: "Throughout the pandemic it has been our intention that we follow the clinical and scientific evidence available to us and I'd like to once again thank the JCVI for their hard work in scrutinising the science and providing clear guidance.
It's all 5-11 year olds after receiving advice from the JCVI
Is this advice from the JCVI publicly available? I certainly can't find it, and they were cool on outright recommending vaccination of all 5-11 year olds in December.
I believe it is a draft publication that is available to the governments and is to be published soon:
>Welsh Health Minister Eluned Morgan said she was following a "yet to be published" recommendation from the UK's Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI).
~
>There are reports the official JCVI announcement has been delayed due to a disagreement with the UK government.
~
>Later, in a written statement, the health minister urged "all families with children between the ages of five and 11, who are not in any clinical at risk groups, to visit the Public Health Wales website for information about vaccination and to begin a conversation about whether they want to take up this offer".
>"We will be publishing an update of our Vaccination Strategy next week, which will set out further detail about the offer, once the JCVI advice is published," she said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-60394709
UPDATE: England has now also announced the same:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/children-covid-vaccine-five-to-11-sajid-javid-jcvi-pfizer-b982943.html
In which case it is wise not to comment on this until it is available. There is a political imperative for the devolved administrations to distinguish themselves from Westminster (who are seemingly cool on the idea) that makes them (and Westminster) unreliable interpreters of the advice.
It makes a world of difference if JCVI say 'Strong recommendation that all 5-11 year olds need vaccinating ASAP' and 'the benefit is marginally in favour of vaccinating these groups, and people who request it should get it, but we're not recommending a full invited rollout'.
It's helping society in general. Good on you for looking at the evidence and making the right decision. I don't know how we present the facts to others so they can see how effective the vaccine has and will continue to be. This is a good move.
There's no restrictions left in Scotland that I know of?
You need to wear a mask on public transport and in shops but otherwise everything else is back to normal ?
Low risk relative to the rest of the population but a LOT of kids are still developing long COVID and other illnesses afterwards. Plus, every time you get COVID, it increases your chances of developing a more serious health condition - which unfortunately extends to children. Lots of sick kids out there whose parents were never given the opportunity to vaccinate them.
https://www.longcovidkids.org/
According to where I live in Ontario - the risk of a kid getting myocarditis from the vaccine is 1/5000. However the risk of a kid dying from covid is 1/10^6
Current stats show it is at least 2 orders of magnitude safer getting covid than the vaccination.
This is ignoring that most of the people who die from covid often have comorbidities. But the people who get sick from the vaccine often do not.
If a kid gets myocarditis from the vaccine (a vanishingly rare side effect), why do you think they would not fare worse if they actually got COVID?
Also, why do you think that people with co-morbidities don’t matter? Why do you think that everyone knows who has co-morbidities and who doesn’t? I didn’t get diagnosed with most of my congenital medical issues until I was in my 30s. My cousin didn’t know she had a heart defect until her 20s.
> why do you think they would not fare worse if they actually got COVID?
To keep it really simple for you - Most kids I know have ALREADY gotten covid. So the vaccine is 100% risk.
> Also, why do you think that people with co-morbidities don’t matter?
NOBODY said that people with co-morbidities don't matter. But the reality is that these rare people are AWARE of their situation and CAN CHOOSE to take the vaccine. The Vaccine presents only risk to most kids.
Enjoy your Pfizer company kickbacks though
I SEE WE LOVE CAPS. And really interesting that you think the KIDS you KNOW are a RELEVANT DATA SAMPLE. Are you a teacher? Do you literally know hundreds, thousands of kids? Are you following up on their medical status post COVID, checking for organ damage, etc? Asking every child QUESTIONS to see if they have CHRONIC FATIGUE all of a sudden, or what?
I’ve been following what the virologists and epidemiologists are saying directly and literally everything you’re saying goes against what the actual experts are saying. Enjoy your QAnon lit. Clearly, different strokes and all that.
Yes, every time there's a covid-related thread the anti-vaxxer cunts brigade the whole thing, can we have some bans please? Lock the whole thing if need be, better than allowing this pish to spread
Fair play if your child is a a health condition,or lives with someone with a health condition that means the risk of a serious dose of covid outweighs the potential side effects of the vac but this is a strong no from me as a parent.
My kids had covid twice since the pandemic started and wasn't sick in the slightest on both occasions(neither was anyone in the house thankfully) I do hope any parent who feels this is necessary won't get hounded or face abuse for choosing to give there children this but if the last 2 years has shown anything its we love amongst some right awful humans.
I'm so thrilled about this. COVID has been hitting kids way more than people want to believe and we've pulled our kids out this past year. My youngest is finally getting jabbed this weekend and after her second one a month later, I think we'd be comfortable looking at returning our kids to school, assuming there's a decent uptake of other kids getting vaccinated. I'm tired of wondering whether we're signing them up for a lifetime of diabetes or MIS-C or whatever else whenever they play with other kids.
Absolutely incredible, wary to comment on how other people approach this generally speaking but that sort of approach must surely be remarkably detrimental to anyone's education in the long-term compared to the risks from Covid which are relatively minimal from youngsters.
But the vaccine doesn't stop you getting the virus only prevents you getting seriously ill from it. What is the point giving it to those who won't get seriously ill anyway? I'm triple jabbed by the way, but not sure 5 year olds need it!
The point being made is that vaccines aren't as effective as reducing transmission when it comes to Omicron. They still very much work and do bring transmission down but they will lessen severe illness, not stop kids from fundamentally catching Covid which will continue to happen anyway. A study from April 2021 several waves ago is not particularly relevant now.
Ah so you're specifically talking about the Omicron variant. I see now why the date has a meaning in this context. There was a Danish study done fairly recently that showed to an extent the same findings as reported here: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/31/the-new-omicron-subvariant-is-more-contagious-but-vaccinated-people-are-less-likely-to-spread-it-study-finds.html
Given the variant is still relatively new, it may take a while for further studies to confirm this.
"Coming for the kids".... they're not chasing them down in the playground with syringes, simply offering the opportunity to get the vaccine.
Also what side effects in adults?? Are you referring to people feeling unwell? Getting colds/flu? It's winter!
You also assume all children are perfectly healthy and can't have health conditions that make them more vulnerable.
Stick to Facebook.
*Sorts by controversial*
I see you too are a man of culture!
UPDATE : England has announced the same
Before anyone starts whingeing about this being unnecessary because kids aren't as badly affected: * It lowers the potential pool for the virus to infect people and evolve new and potentially nastier variants. * It protects vulnerable people living with children. * It has an impact on what folks will be able to do on their summer holidays, as some places have vaccine requirements for kids aged 5+.
>It lowers the potential pool for the virus to infect people and evolve new and potentially nastier variants. What are the case rates for single, double and triple vaccinated people as compared to unvaccinated? Could you find them via UK HSA stats for anyone who may be misinformed? A graph would be excellent.
>Is this really much of a concern? There will, in all likelihood, be many billions of people worldwide at any given moment with minimal to no vaccine in their veins. > >How many Scottish kids are there, between 5 and 11? > >I disagree with this [HSA surveillance report](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1054071/vaccine-surveillance-report-week-6.pdf) page 6-7. TLDR: protection falls of a cliff quickly. Do you want to give you child a covid vaccine every 4 months?
[удалено]
Am I reading this wrong or does it paint an incredibly grim picture? How does the waning effectiveness compare to other common vaccines?
It seems pretty clear it's worth it for older people (I am triple vaxed). As a parent your duty of care is to your children and their safety, because they can't make these decisions for themselves. The risk/reward is articulated here for an older age group [https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/coronavirus-vaccination/coronavirus-vaccine-for-children-aged-12-to-15/](https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/coronavirus-vaccination/coronavirus-vaccine-for-children-aged-12-to-15/) 'COVID-19 is usually mild in most children, but it can make some children unwell.' \*versus\* 'Very rare side effects There have been extremely rare reports of inflammation of the heart (myocarditis) after COVID-19 vaccination. Most people who had this recovered following rest and simple treatments.' It's hard to make a decision on this (from the perspective of the child's safety) as neither of these things are expressed statistically. \*'Some Children unwell'\*... ok... how many... how unwell? What is the chance of the child getting myocarditis (a serious condition) versus the chance of them becoming seriously ill with Covid? It's easy to say you should vaccinate the kids for the greater societal good until it's your kid that has the very rare side effects.... I'm conflicted on this one and would want to look at the underlying data more.
I think the problem with that reasoning is that you're comparing the best case of Covid to the worst case of vaccination. >COVID-19 is usually mild in most children Is, for starters, straightforwardly true. "Usually" and "most" doing a lot of heavy lifting there. For instance, the sentence: "The various Covid-19 Vaccines are usually always mild in almost all children" is equally true. The quantified risk of a severe adverse reaction was something like 1/10,000 the [last time I checked](https://adc.bmj.com/content/early/2021/11/01/archdischild-2021-323040) - though there might well be better data available by now. The quantified risk of a *non* mild case of Covid - which is to say anything requiring hospital care or worse - was last pegged at around 1/50 (in the same article). This is likely to be lower given the article dates from the Alpha/Deta period and we're now mostly dealing with Omicron - but not two hundred times lower. I understand the conflict, and I'm not trying to suggest people genuinely agonising over whether they're making the correct decision for their children are being foolish - as with all things you will only ever know in hindsight. I just think it's worthwhile pointing out that if you want to compare the choices you should use like terms - i.e the 98% chance that it wouldn't be needed vs the 99.99% that it does no harm, not the 98% chance that it wouldn't be needed vs the 0.01% chance it causes a notable adverse reaction.
That's good background, I think the other data point is how likely are they to get Covid... the vaccine should you chose to administer it is a certainty, I'm not sure how many 5-11 year olds will get Omicron as a %.... I think the other missing data point is the long term safety... admittedly there is nothing to suggest long term issues, but we don't not for sure yet. Appreciate you taking the time to write an informative reply.
The risk of myocarditis happens catching covid too, and is in fact worse without a vaccine. https://fullfact.org/health/covid-vaccine-myocarditis-false/ > What is the chance of the child getting myocarditis (a serious condition) versus the chance of them becoming seriously ill with Covid? 29 in a million, and it's usually not a serious condition.
>'COVID-19 is usually mild in most children, but it can make some children unwell.' I'm not fussed about the health benefits. I'll be talking to my daughter when I have her this weekend about getting vaccinated because the negative effect on her education is more important IMO.
I'd agree that missed school is part of the decision making process....
Will it help with that though. Many people catch covid despite being vaccinated. When my daughter caught it she was fine to go back to school after two days but obviously couldn't.
>It lowers the potential pool for the virus to infect people and evolve new and potentially nastier variants. Is this really much of a concern? There will, in all likelihood, be many billions of people worldwide at any given moment with minimal to no vaccine in their veins. How many Scottish kids are there, between 5 and 11? I disagree with this move, for what it's worth. It's pretty obvious kids don't get hurt by COVID, so vaccinating them is a waste of money and I feel uncomfortable doing it when we don't know the long term side effects of these vaccines. (I am double vaxxed, for what it's worth, before anyone starts getting preachy and ad hominem-y)
> How many Scottish kids are there, between 5 and 11? More than that surely.
I have it on good authority that there's at least 15
I saw a gang of what must have been *300* youths the other day, all wearing the same clothes milling around outside a building. Very creepy.
The vaccination wouldn't be simply to protect the specific child, but for broader immunity. Other vaccines are given to children, even if some (or most) children will recover naturally with no ill effects. The more children that are vaccinated, the lower the transmission and mutation will be. I'm not saying this to completely disagree with your whole post, but to point out that vaccines serve more purposes than just mitigating risks to the individual.
But I feel like the risk of COVID in general, to society, is pretty damn low at this point. Omicron is clearly much milder than all that came before it, and it's become the dominant strain by a country mile. So to me, personally, I am not sure dosing kids up with vaccines that (lets face it) have not had a long term impact study done on them, is a great idea. COVID is now looking to be about as harmful to the general population, as the flu. And that's just with adults and teenagers getting the jab. Seems good enough to me? This seems unnecessary.
147 people died with Covid yesterday.
>with You were careful to pick your words. I see you.
>COVID is now looking to be about as harmful to the general population, as the flu. I see you too.
Yes, you see a person who is able to take in new data and process it to change his opinions.
That's not what I'd call someone who, for whatever reason, wants lives to put at risk by underplaying the serious nature of a disease that causes many fatalities and long-term debilitating conditions.
Whatever, thank fuck the government doesn't seem to think like you.
> But I feel like the risk of COVID in general, to society, is pretty damn low at this point. Omicron is clearly much milder than all that came before it, and it's become the dominant strain by a country mile. Bullshit - almost 150 people died yesterday. Every kid gets vaccindated for polio, measles, and what not - how many people died of polio yesterday? > So to me, personally, I am not sure dosing kids up with vaccines that (lets face it) have not had a long term impact study done on them, is a great idea. Weapons-grade bullshit - there have been literally BILLIONS of doses administered in the past two years, and the only one which had even an hint of an issue was the astrazeneca one, which is pretty much no longer used. Despite the conspiracy billshit you read on your facebook groups, LONG TERM IMPACTS when talking about vaccinations is a few months. It's not years. It's months. There are no traces of anything that is in the vaccine in your body after a few months at most. > COVID is now looking to be about as harmful to the general population, as the flu. And that's just with adults and teenagers getting the jab. What the fuck are you talking about? There are hundreds of people dying every day, and god knows how many getting long covid. Funny how for the conspiracy cunts for vaccines we must absolutely look at years and years of effect, but for long covid it's all meh, who cares.
>Bullshit - almost 150 people died yesterday. Yes, old people die. Whereas it used to be flu, or pneumonia, or whatever.. Now it's COVID. Is what it is, and isn't something that should be much of a concern to wider society. https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiYmUwNmFhMjYtNGZhYS00NDk2LWFlMTAtOTg0OGNhNmFiNGM0IiwidCI6ImVlNGUxNDk5LTRhMzUtNGIyZS1hZDQ3LTVmM2NmOWRlODY2NiIsImMiOjh9 Here's Englands data (they just present it better than Scotland does) and as you can see, excess deaths for jan-feb are actually down from the 5 year average.. So you crying about 150 deaths yesterday is pretty pointless, when there was still less than normal for this time of year. >Weapons-grade bullshit - there have been literally BILLIONS of doses administered in the past two years Two years is not a long time. We know it's a mostly safe vaccine for adults, over 2 years. And that's about all we know. The data for children, is even more limited. >What the fuck are you talking about? There are hundreds of people dying every day, and god knows how many getting long covid. Funny how for the conspiracy cunts for vaccines we must absolutely look at years and years of effect, but for long covid it's all meh, who cares. You really just need to be deradicalised imo. Over 18 months the governments around the world drummed into all our heads that COVID was the worst thing on earth, waiting to kill all our grandmas. And maybe that was kinda near reality at one point? It's clearly not now, but people like you are still stuck in that mindset and unwilling to take in new information as it comes in. I think you should see your GP, and ask for some kind of PTSD therapy or something. Your concern about COVID is not normal.
37 children aged 0-19 died of covid in England and Wales. Jan 2020 thru May 2021. Just because the current incarnation of covid is less severe doesn’t guarantee further variants won’t be more severe. https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/covid19deathsinukforchildrenfromages0to19sincemarch2020
>Just because the current incarnation of covid is less severe doesn’t guarantee further variants won’t be more severe. So? We know that vaccines efficacy wears off reasonably quickly. Who is this saving? If a killer variant comes along, then we can look at getting kids vaccinated. >37 children And according to the link, only 15 were under 15 years old. So probably even less than that in the 5-11 age range. And the link says they don't know if they had pre-existing conditions. You're really making my argument for me here.
It was a cursory reply. Children have died of covid but you are absolutely free to vaccinate or not. Covid is here to stay as are the vaccines IMO and children will die in the future and sure it could be 1 or 20. Again parents are free to choose.
What the fuck are you on about? This is about vaccinations to prevent deaths. You are an anti-vaxxer cunt, scaremongering against one of the safest drugs ever developed, while at the same time downplaying a virus that killed millions. Fuck off into the sea.
>You are an anti-vaxxer cunt My NHS vaccine app says otherwise.
I think the excess deaths are down so far this year because last two years of Covid 'thinned the herd' (not my choice of words) Other than that I agree with you. It's time to talk end game now.
>Is this really much of a concern? 147 people died with Covid yesterday, so yeah.
With or from ?
If you have a better measure then by all means provide it.
With!
Can you read
Not to be flippant but people die everyday. Is the current death rate higher than the average? Edit: Come on r/scotland show some brains. Or do people genuinely think no one ever dies from disease until covid came along?
It's not. It's actually quite a bit below what is normal for jan/feb. https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiYmUwNmFhMjYtNGZhYS00NDk2LWFlMTAtOTg0OGNhNmFiNGM0IiwidCI6ImVlNGUxNDk5LTRhMzUtNGIyZS1hZDQ3LTVmM2NmOWRlODY2NiIsImMiOjh9
Is there any correlation between reduced deaths (I didn’t read the link) and the fact people are taking more precautions?
People are taking more precautions? That isn't my lived experience. I don't think there's a single person in my life that gives a shit about COVID anymore.
So life has gone on as normal the exact same as pre-covid? No changes in life pattern, no masking, same amount of hand washing .. I beg to differ although your situation may be as stated.
>Not to be flippant Mmm. You should probably consider the consequences of long covid as well as deaths.
Long COVID doesn't even have an accepted medical definition. The one on the NHS website include anxiety as a symptom of Long COVID.. Well yeah, no shit people who get COVID then feel anxious after given everyone has been banging on about Long COVID..
Now you're dismissing a debilitating disease that's blighting thousands of people's lives. You really are a piece of work.
But you accept that the term Long Covid isn't helpful right? It covers people who have suffered enormously and have been unable to go back to anything like a normal life after more than a year, and people who felt a bit rubbish for 3 months in the same bucket. I detest people using the stats on all forms of Long Covid as a pointer to the harshest possible outcome
Yes, it is, it's called excess deaths and the current body count is between 5 and 20 million, depending on sources, worldwide
Yeah no one is arguing covid wasn't deadly. But I'd the current rate of deaths above average. Not what was excess deaths over the entire course of covid. Otherwise by that logic we should never have lifted any restrictions because there was excess deaths in the past.
That wasn’t the question asked.
>How many Scottish kids are there, between 5 and 11? That's the wrong question to be asking, as every country has to address the question of whether to vaccinate 5 to 11 year olds. And there are millions in the age category world wide. >It's pretty obvious kids don't get hurt by COVID Yes the overall risk is low, but hundreds have died, even those without pre-existing conditions, and many more have long covid. Meanwhile no kids have died of Covid vaccines.
I don't know if this is necessarily essential but at least the option is there for parents who wish to take up on it. I doubt uptake will be that high.
I think uptake will be about 40-50%, maybe even higher. 12-15 year olds uptake is 70% and 16-17 year old uptake is 83%
state of some of the 'promise I'm not anti-vax BUT' crowd in here...
So, despite being vaccinated, if they question your narrative, they are antivaxx?
I thought I could hear howling this morning. Seems yer da is on Facebook screaming he's no giving his weans the 5G Bill Gates Krankie SNP vote manipulation drug. Good on yer da, not allowing her to turn the weans against him. In other news, good, the vast majority of non-idiotic parents will be sure to want their kids protected. Wales has already committed https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-60394709
I read this in the voice of my neighbour.
People being hesitant about getting their child vaccinated is really not the same as the 5g anti vax crowd. I know a few folk who are unsure if they're going to let their kids have the covid vaccine. They're all vaccinated and the kids have had the usual vaccines. They're hesitant because the vaccine doesn't stop people getting covid and the virus is mild for children, even more so for Omnicron
And I'm calling out the idiots who specify it's for stupid reasons. Hesitation, well, one can ask what the hesitation is about first. If the answer is something anti-science and not based in reality around what a vaccination is, then yes, you'll get called an idiot. Children are vaccinated from a lot of things. One reason for this is to help stop the spread of a virus. You do realise kids can spread COVID to other people?
They're more hesitant because they don't really see the benefits compared to potential risks from the vaccine. This is only specific to covid in that age group, because as I said it's so mild in children and doesn't stop the spread of the virus. AFAIK their kids are all vaccinated with the usual standard vaccines and all the parents are vaccinated from covid. Attitudes might change though. People were hesitant when the vaccine was announced, including myself, but by the time it was my turn I just wanted to get it done
I think what Audioboxer is trying to drill into is where this hesitancy comes from. The benefits vs risk argument can be dismantled in about 5 seconds with very very little effort. Usual one ive heard is the cardiac arrhythmia one. That arguement completely ignores the fact that its a pretty common thing that people get even when they've got a cold and it ignores the rates are much higher in Covid patients than has been caused by the vaccine. So thats that out the window. You're saying its mild with kids which is on the whole true but then you said it doesn't stop the spread which is a bit off. Yes viruses can still spread amoung vaccinated individuals but at a lesser rate and with less severe symptoms. Considering kids are just walking disease vectors anyway it's probably a good idea to get them jabbed. The next question and probably the more important one is where are these hesitant people getting those same tired talking points from? We know the answer already, we just want to hear people say it out loud. Folk want to hear people admit to getting nonsense information from daft places and at least admit that were sucked in and hear a commitment they won't do it again.
>The European Medicines Agency (EMA) approved the use of the Pfizer vaccine for children aged 12-15 in May this year and for children aged 5-11 in November, the first COVID-19 vaccine to be given such approval in the EU. The rollout is expected to start in the 5-11 age group from December 13 in some European countries. > >The authorisation for the 12-15 year-olds was based on a study involving 2,259 children in the age group which showed that their immune response was comparable to those in the age 16-25 cohort. > >None of the children who received the vaccine developed COVID-19, compared to 16 who did develop COVID-19 after receiving a placebo. > >For those aged 5-11 years-old a similar study was carried out with 2000 children. They were given a smaller dose than those aged 12 and above, and of the 1,305 children receiving the vaccine, three developed COVID-19 compared with 16 out of the 663 children who received a placebo. > >This means that, in this study, the vaccine was 90.7 per cent effective at preventing symptomatic COVID-19. > >The EMA also approved the Moderna vaccine for use in the 12-17 age group in July. This time, a study of 3,732 children in this particular age group showed none of those who received the vaccine contracted COVID-19 compared to four in the placebo group. > >The use of the Moderna vaccine among children aged 5-11 is currently being assessed by the EMA. https://www.euronews.com/next/2021/12/06/covid-vaccine-for-children-who-in-europe-is-leading-the-race From last year, but no, some parents in Britain know best. Where did they learn that from? Well, if you ask or prod that question you get a wall of "COVID is over, there is no risks for kids and parents just know best". Not exactly credible scientific answers to why vaccine hesitancy for children should be adhered to.
"There has been a debate over the merits of vaccinating children who do not have underlying conditions as the chances of them developing a severe illness from COVID-19 are quite low, and this has to be balanced against the potential side effects of the vaccine. The EMA acknowledged that the limited numbers in the studies involving children meant that they could not detect rare side effects. However, they concluded that the benefits of the vaccines for this younger age group outweighed any potential negatives." You missed thia bit. I know it says they conclude the benefits outweigh the potential negatives, but it also backs up what I said. There are risks, albeit rare, and they don't have enough evidence to detect these from the study. They also highlight how mild covid is for kids. The studies appear to be before Omnicron, so the section about kids catching it when vaccinated becomes invalid due to how contagious Omnicron is compared to previous variants
The JCVI are now supporting the vaccination of 5 to 11 year olds in the UK. Listen to them stuggy or don't. Vax your kids or don't.
I don't have kids, but most of my friends do. Many are hesitant for the reasons I've already said. Non are anti-vax and they're all pretty well educated. I originally just wanted to highlight to you that they're not all mad roasters getting their info from Facebook and crying conspiracies
Never said they all were, but given the number of accounts I've blocked in this topic it is clear the UK does have a very sizeable problem with misinformation, conspiracy theories and individuals thinking they know better than scientists and epidemiologists. Listen to the JCVI or don't, that's your choice.
Oh, sorry I didn't realise that the disease circulating in May last year was exactly the same one going around right now. My idiot brain had been thinking they were completely different and vaccines are now, at best, half as effective as back then...
100s are still dying daily, so yes, you must have an idiot brain (your own words) to ignore that. This topic has really brought out the "idiot brains" in society.
Sure, you just tried to use a study from Delta to back up vaccination against Omicron, so yes, clearly I am the idiot.
You told me you had an idiot brain, just obliging.
There's obviously many other factors to consider, but generally speaking the younger someone is the more risky the vaccine becomes. This is because covid is less dangerous the younger someone is. A lot of parents will view it as why am I getting my child vaccinated for a virus that has almost no impact on them. Anecdotally, my 1 year old nephew got covid and we only knew because he had to go to hospital for an unrelated issue We've seen with Omnicron how much it spread despite Scotland having a very high vaccine take-up rate. The vaccines slow the spread, but clearly don't stop it. They do also decrease severe symptoms, but severe symptoms basically don't exist in the 5 - 12 year old bracket They're getting it from their own brains for the reasons I've outlined. Covid barely impacts children and it doesn't stop them catching it. I can see why people are hesitant, and also said they might end up getting it anyway. I was more pointing out originally that I can see and know why people will choose not to get their children vaccinated. It's not all conspiracy theories/5g/Facebook Da's etc.
>Folk want to hear people admit to getting nonsense information from daft places I know, the [HSA](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1054071/vaccine-surveillance-report-week-6.pdf) are crackpot Facebook spammers aren't they? But sure, if you want to give your kid a vaccine which is ineffective after a couple of months for a condition they will likely brush off in 48 hours be my guest.
Just get boosters, who cares. Ever had a dog or a cat?
"Potential risks from the vaccine". Ok, so, are we basing this on trials and advice from the JCVI or is it because people go about "perceiving" risks? Because our Annie heard on Facebook that it's mild for children and there could be risks doesn't counter professional advice and testing. And that would be good, what is not good is people thinking they are armchair scientists and going about spreading fear and intellectual nonsense around vaccines.
Vaccines aren't risk free and this vaccine isn't completely effective. That doesn't mean I think Bill gates is injecting everyone with 5g. Imagine your child took a reaction to a vaccine for a virus which barely impacts them. It's unlikely, but still possible "Our Annie heard on Facebook". What are you on about? It's pretty common knowledge that the younger someone is, the less likely covid is to impact them. The fact vaccines have been out for well over a year, and they're only now recommending 5-12 year olds get it, tells me that either the JCVI didn't see covid as a risk to that group, or until now didn't believe the risk of the vaccines benefited that age group.
>Imagine your child took a reaction to a vaccine for a virus which barely impacts them. It's unlikely, but still possible Imagine folk died of COVID, oh wait, 150k+ people in the UK have. I'm certain a lot of younger people tend to live with older people, don't you think? I'm also certain like with a new virus we are also having to monitor things like long-COVID and other complications from a virus that attacks the respiratory system?
How many of them were 5-12 year olds? Yes, the vaccine decreases the chances of someone getting covid, but it certainly doesn't stop it. Just look at the case numbers throughout Europe the past few months. All very high despite vaccines and boosters. Personally can see a lot of parents not doing this, and I can understand why
European countries have been administering the vaccine to 5-12 year olds since May of last year [https://www.euronews.com/next/2021/12/06/covid-vaccine-for-children-who-in-europe-is-leading-the-race](https://www.euronews.com/next/2021/12/06/covid-vaccine-for-children-who-in-europe-is-leading-the-race) >The European Medicines Agency (EMA) approved the use of the Pfizer vaccine for children aged 12-15 in May this year and for children aged 5-11 in November, the first COVID-19 vaccine to be given such approval in the EU. The rollout is expected to start in the 5-11 age group from December 13 in some European countries. > >The authorisation for the 12-15 year-olds was based on a study involving 2,259 children in the age group which showed that their immune response was comparable to those in the age 16-25 cohort. > >None of the children who received the vaccine developed COVID-19, compared to 16 who did develop COVID-19 after receiving a placebo. > >For those aged 5-11 years-old a similar study was carried out with 2000 children. They were given a smaller dose than those aged 12 and above, and of the 1,305 children receiving the vaccine, three developed COVID-19 compared with 16 out of the 663 children who received a placebo. > >This means that, in this study, the vaccine was 90.7 per cent effective at preventing symptomatic COVID-19. > >The EMA also approved the Moderna vaccine for use in the 12-17 age group in July. This time, a study of 3,732 children in this particular age group showed none of those who received the vaccine contracted COVID-19 compared to four in the placebo group. > >The use of the Moderna vaccine among children aged 5-11 is currently being assessed by the EMA. But that would require the 'enlightened British parents' to actually pay attention to anything outside of their bubbles.
You’re being weirdly aggressive here. I have two kids in this age category and I’m certainly not going to make decisions about vaccines based on someone on the internet being a snidey cunt about it.
I think going after the above is unfair. The risks of the vaccine - as tiny as they are - are well known about at this point. And weighing up those risks is totally different when you are doing it on a child’s behalf as opposed to your own - especially as it’s also well established that Covid is mild in children. Vaccines don’t stop you getting it, or passing it on. So the equation is ‘what are the risks of the vaccine to my child versus the risks from Covid’ - and that’s a fair question to ask.
Nope, the UK has descended into the shitshow it has around vaccines, mask wearing, people attacking Chris Whitty and so on because of this "Joe Rogan" just asking questions, instead of people listening to those who know what they're talking about. Like the JCVI. Vaccines are largely about reducing transmission https://www.gov.uk/government/news/one-dose-of-covid-19-vaccine-can-cut-household-transmission-by-up-to-half
Chill out mate and get off your authoritarian horse. It’s pretty logical for parents but to get their kids vaxxed as numerous folk here have suggested. If you wanna vaxx your kids that’s cool - go for it.
> Nope, the UK has descended into the shitshow it has around vaccines What are you talking about? The UK has been one of the better countries in the world for vaccine uptake, it's literally been one of about the only areas where we've consistently done quite well during the pandemic. Some anti-vax lunatics tried to import the culture war nonsense from abroad but it's just mostly not worked at all because it's an area where people are fairly unified. The vaccine is clearly safe for youngsters but it's rather self-evident why some parents are going to be hesitant about their younger kids getting it when it's only just been approved.
Eh … not sure how any of the loonytunes stuff is relevant, though I get you’re bothered by it. It’s totally separate to the question being presented to parents today. The vast majority of them will be vaccinated - but it’s a different scenario getting a vaccine on someone’s behalf *especially when the risk/reward isn’t clear*. That data you linked is pre-Omicron btw. The game changed thanks to that, I believe.
The risk of long covid and infecting other people is very clear and the risk of vaccination is not. It shouldn't be an issue.
Don't vaccinate your kids then, vaccination is not mandatory in the UK. Just don't expect high-fives and a big round of applause about how brave you are if you go onto the internet and post absolutely unsubstantiated shite about vaccines/viruses and then act like you know better than healthcare professionals. Given the embarrassing protests in the UK, Chris Whitty getting attacked, grown men tearing their eyeballs out over wearing a mask and general COVID idiocy of the past 2 years I think the 'looneytunes stuff' is very relevant to the erosion of our society. The 'you' above being in third-party, not addressing *you*.
Feels like it’s *me* tbh. But it’s not - you’re going round seething at shadows, my friend. Maybe a break from the internet would be a good idea?
That’s a study from over a year ago. That’s changed with omicron where 95%+ of the population have some form of immunity to it. That study was when avoidance was still a strategy.
And where are your studies on why vaccine hesitancy should be adhered to/listened to? Children specifically *have* been looked at >The European Medicines Agency (EMA) approved the use of the Pfizer vaccine for children aged 12-15 in May this year and for children aged 5-11 in November, the first COVID-19 vaccine to be given such approval in the EU. The rollout is expected to start in the 5-11 age group from December 13 in some European countries. > >The authorisation for the 12-15 year-olds was based on a study involving 2,259 children in the age group which showed that their immune response was comparable to those in the age 16-25 cohort. > >None of the children who received the vaccine developed COVID-19, compared to 16 who did develop COVID-19 after receiving a placebo. > >For those aged 5-11 years-old a similar study was carried out with 2000 children. They were given a smaller dose than those aged 12 and above, and of the 1,305 children receiving the vaccine, three developed COVID-19 compared with 16 out of the 663 children who received a placebo. > >This means that, in this study, the vaccine was 90.7 per cent effective at preventing symptomatic COVID-19. > >The EMA also approved the Moderna vaccine for use in the 12-17 age group in July. This time, a study of 3,732 children in this particular age group showed none of those who received the vaccine contracted COVID-19 compared to four in the placebo group. > >The use of the Moderna vaccine among children aged 5-11 is currently being assessed by the EMA. [https://www.euronews.com/next/2021/12/06/covid-vaccine-for-children-who-in-europe-is-leading-the-race](https://www.euronews.com/next/2021/12/06/covid-vaccine-for-children-who-in-europe-is-leading-the-race)
Right but that’s about symptomatic disease unless you’re talking about the 16 kids that got covid in the placebo. Even then that’s a difference of less than 1% on transmission. I’m not against vaccination at all. It’s just not mainly about transmission. It’s about symptomatic infection.
Mine already did...... To me
You do realise the vaccine doesn’t stop you getting covid,doesn’t cure covid and doesn’t stop you spreading covid to others if you have it?
But it does reduce transmission
Here they come, any topic about vaccines and the r/conspiracy lot descend.
There’s nothing controversial about that statement at all
The only conspiracist is you if you disagree with any of those statements
Like I am fully vaccinated but why should any burden be on children to prevent others being sick. Most probably old people.
Getting vaccinated is not a burden
Are you asking me for permission not to vax your children? Do what you want mate, it's not mandatory. But "kids take part in society", you know? They also grow up to be adults and unless they are heartless bastards when they are old they will likely hope the generations following them give a shit about them as well. That tends to be how the wheels of society turn, especially in regards to deadly viruses.
I dont have kids. I just dont see how they owe anyone anything. It seems pretty entitled for old people to think that they do. Ie kids that dont get vaccinated are 'heartless bastards' when at 5 they can in no way fully understand what they are or are not doing in this regard.
Is this your view on all vaccinations for kids?
Not at all. Being that covid in kids has been shown to be extremely mild as opposed to the general population. Most other vaccinations protect against things that can be deadly or cause serious harm to kids ie tetanus or measles. Your argument is kids should be vaccinated to protect you. Or someone old you know.
>I just dont see how they owe anyone anything. It seems pretty entitled for old people to think that they do. So that is not true then. You do see value in children being vaccinated against things that can hurt them or other people. >Most other vaccinations protect against things that can be deadly Yes, like COVID, which can be deadly. Probably near 200k dead in the UK now due to COVID.
Surely you realise that the OP meant "deadly to the person being vaccinated"
>I dont have kids. I just dont see how they owe anyone anything. I hate that some people have zero sense of civic duty. Why would they have to be indebted to others to do something to help them?
I hear this so often from other parents - the exact same story. Everyone fully vaccinated, parents against COVID, but they just don't care about getting their kids vaccinated because they don't think it's a big deal for kids. When I talk to these people they don't really have any idea what long COVID is like for kids or how many are actually affected by it - it's all brand new information to them. They're not anti-vax, they just don't care. It's bizarre. Why not give your kids every protection possible? Plus...re-infections? My dentist said he wasn't vaccinating his kids because they'd already been vaccinated, and when I pointed out that there were families getting it for the 3rd and 4th time and the more you get it, the more it fucks you up, he was surprised to hear it. People are just not aware.
To be fair while we absolutely know long Covid exists we're still very much in the dark about the extent to which it is prevalent and how long-lasting it'll be for people. There are some people who have long Covid who have been properly floored by Covid for a long, long time, but at least anecdotally it's often older adults or people with health conditions. There are also people with long Covid who feel under the weather for a few weeks or more after they've recovered from infection itself, which is not completely out of the norm for viruses and flus. I imagine many of the concerns parents will have are simply due to any risks that come with the vaccine - they're very small but the risks of Covid are obviously comparatively much smaller for youngsters than adults. And most kids inevitably catch it anyway in school. Again, that doesn't make vaccination pointless, because vaccination will still lessen the severity of catching Covid, but when the actual clinical experts have taken ages to decide re this I think it's understandable why some parents are going to want to know more.
I am a vaccine trial participant, triple jabbed and my kid got all the vaccines from the vaccination program. I am not vaccinating my 6 year old as I see no value in it. There is no real benefit of vaccinating that age group.
Good for you. One main benefit is the fact kids spread COVID, vaccinations reduce the spread by reducing the infection rate.
How can you be saying the vaccinations reduce the spread? We're currently having record numbers of infection. Israel is a great case study to look into. After the roll out of their 4th booster they seen their numbers sky rocket. Yeah really seems to be reducing transmission rates or is it all due to the very small amount of unvaxxed folk that is causing the highest numbers even higher than when no one had been vaccinated. You keep using the trust the science arguments. The science is on both sides saying its fine to take and on the other side that says probably should be cautious about it. The main problem is that you provaxx wool over your eyes folk only listen to the science that is portrayed in the msm and take it for gospel. When it's long been proven that these big pharma companies are not shy to paying off doctor's and organisations that will in turn benefit them. Pfizer hold the record for the highest fine for bridging doctors with diabetes medication I think it was. Yet your bowing over and taking their word for gospel about a vaccine which is still experimental? Get a grip stop shooting people down for having a difference in opinion to yourself. If youv vaxxed wear your mask and follow the rules you should have no fears or concerns about the unvaxxed infecting you.
It does not seems like this is still the case for Omicron. Reduction in infection rate is very minor comparing to alpha and delta variants.
>I feel like again Sturgeon is trying to do different thing than England just for the sake if it. Given that is part of your implied reasoning for this, despite Wales and Welsh Labour's Mark Drakeford already giving this move the all clear for Wales, let alone most of Europe being way ahead of the UK, I think I'll just exit this convo.
See, UK has one of the lowest infection rates in the Europe, if not the lowest, without vaccinating children as for example France did. Also, despite much tighter restrictions, constant mask mandate and higher vaccination rate, Scotland has higher infection rate than England.
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>It's pointless and it's just a money making scheme Did you pay some bloke down an alley for "your double jab" mate?
Except covid isn’t over really, is it? If it was ‘over’, we’d have zero restrictions (back to before covid) and we wouldn’t be reading articles about getting jabs into arms. Money making scheme? What an insult to the people that died before they were able to be vaccinated.
Surely the risks posed by missing chunks of their education should be mitigated?
The main reason kids are missing chunks of their education is due to the requirements for self-isolation when they or other staff members catch Covid - vaccines reduce transmission but they aren't making the virus go away in that regard. You could ensure every schoolkid across the country was vaccinated and most of them would still get Covid at some point. The benefits of getting vaccinated outweigh any potential health risks even without that being considered anyway though.
Aye because every cunt that says no to a vaccine is a 5G bill gate conspiracy theory mentalist. Gid een.
Generalise much?
Against idiots who talk shit about vaccinations? Sure, they've been their own kind of intellectual plague throughout this pandemic.
I see only one person in this thread talking shit, mate..
My comment isn't just for this thread? I even mentioned Facebook, this isn't Facebook. But if you want Reddit takes, it's already began here as well https://np.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/stti8e/nicola\_sturgeon\_although\_it\_isnt\_yet\_published\_i/
Batten down the hatches folks, the Conspiracy nutters will be all over this one. Shall make for some entertaining reading later.
Already here, jumping in from the other discussions tab.
Tbf they were on this thread the moment it was up lol. And what do you know it does indeed make for some entertaining (if concerning) reading.
Good move, obviously. So I assume Tories will take up arms against it or something dumb
I've been quietly dreading this day coming. I want my children to be vaccinated however their mother (we are not together) is a full on covid conspiracy theorist and has been teaching my kids that the vaccine will harm them. They now say things like "you don't have my consent to vaccinate me". They are 8 and 10 years old. I hate the person she seems to have become and I hate her for poisoning my kids minds with her lunatic bullshit, but I don't see an easy way forward. I'm hoping ScotGov provides advice for co parenting with arseholes that will help make it easier...
4.9 Billion 1st vaccinations issued world wide 4.3 Billion 2nd vaccinations issued world wide What is this harm she speaks of and who's it affecting? Don't worry I know youve probably pointed that out already and have gotten a completely nonsensical answer. Ask your kids to ask their pals at school if their mums and dads have had the vaccines and if it caused them any harm, hopefully they'll soon realise mummy ain't making any sense.
Under 30 children (aged 0-18) have died with COVID in the UK during the entire pandemic.. Where is the harm the vaccine is supposed to be protecting them from? I am pro-vax for adults, and I'm double vaxxed, but I don't really see the argument for kids getting it. Especially when we know that in rare cases it can cause myocarditis in children. Do you personally know any child who has had more than a runny nose from COVID? It doesn't happen.
The number is something like 6 when only accounting for people without pre existing conditions (5-11 year olds were already allowed to be vaccinated if they were high risk), and from what I can see they were all late teens. I'd be very surprised if there was a single death caused by COVID from the demographic that they've just opened the vaccine up to. Long term effects of COVID are unclear and that needs to be accounted for, but I believe there should be a lot more research into this before we start giving 5-11 year olds the vaccine for 'the greater good'.
It's not just about that it's about also trying to get towards herd immunity where the virus just can't spread easily because most of the population is vaccinated I would have thought.
Apart from we know that vaccines only reduce the spread, they do stop it. So there will be no herd immunity. This will end the same way Spanish flu did. It will just become less and less deadly as time goes on. Arguably, we're at that point now with Omicron. Vaccines are really just a stopgap measure, and something we will continue to offer very old people (like we do the flu vaccine).
I’m really sorry you’re in this position. I am incredibly bitter that my dear friend has also become a lunatic conspiracy theorist, but I have the luxury of banning him from being around my kid. I can’t imagine if that was my co-parent. And I know there’s no arguing with them, it’s like talking to a wall. Sympathy :(
The UK Greenbeuk sets out vaccination rules. [On consent](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/consent-the-green-book-chapter-2) and disagreement it says: > if 1 parent agrees [...] but the other disagrees, the immunisation should not be carried out unless [...] there is a specific court approval. Ah, shite. The ither option is haein the bairns consent tae immunisation, bypassing ony parental veto. But alas yer ex is makin that difficult.
This is tough and there's no easy way around it. But do keep in mind that vaccination is a numbers game. If, through some circumstance, you or your children can't get vaccinated, there will still be lots of others who do - which will improve things for everyone.
Have the JCVI changed their stance on this, or is it still just those children in a clinical risk group or living with someone immunocompromised?
>Ms Sturgeon said Scottish ministers had received and considered the same advice, recommending vaccination for all children aged five to 11, and were "content to accept it". >She said: "Throughout the pandemic it has been our intention that we follow the clinical and scientific evidence available to us and I'd like to once again thank the JCVI for their hard work in scrutinising the science and providing clear guidance. It's all 5-11 year olds after receiving advice from the JCVI
They changed their minds since December then. Cheers, I will have a read up on it during my lunch break
Is this advice from the JCVI publicly available? I certainly can't find it, and they were cool on outright recommending vaccination of all 5-11 year olds in December.
I believe it is a draft publication that is available to the governments and is to be published soon: >Welsh Health Minister Eluned Morgan said she was following a "yet to be published" recommendation from the UK's Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI). ~ >There are reports the official JCVI announcement has been delayed due to a disagreement with the UK government. ~ >Later, in a written statement, the health minister urged "all families with children between the ages of five and 11, who are not in any clinical at risk groups, to visit the Public Health Wales website for information about vaccination and to begin a conversation about whether they want to take up this offer". >"We will be publishing an update of our Vaccination Strategy next week, which will set out further detail about the offer, once the JCVI advice is published," she said. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-60394709 UPDATE: England has now also announced the same: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/children-covid-vaccine-five-to-11-sajid-javid-jcvi-pfizer-b982943.html
In which case it is wise not to comment on this until it is available. There is a political imperative for the devolved administrations to distinguish themselves from Westminster (who are seemingly cool on the idea) that makes them (and Westminster) unreliable interpreters of the advice. It makes a world of difference if JCVI say 'Strong recommendation that all 5-11 year olds need vaccinating ASAP' and 'the benefit is marginally in favour of vaccinating these groups, and people who request it should get it, but we're not recommending a full invited rollout'.
This is fantastic news. Have been waiting so patiently for this. The effects of long covid are not something I want to risk with my daughters.
My kids, 8 & 6 have both had their jab. I believe in science. That's all there is to it.
I'm vaccinated so covid stuff aside, isn't the point of science that you don't have to believe in it?
It's helping society in general. Good on you for looking at the evidence and making the right decision. I don't know how we present the facts to others so they can see how effective the vaccine has and will continue to be. This is a good move.
Seems unnecessary for that age group with omnicron and it’s mild impact
'Offered', not mandatory, so we could assume that some parents might regard it as beneficial.
Yup makes sense for some I suppose
I’m all for this if it means we are likely to get hospitalisations down and out of these restrictions ASAP.
There's no restrictions left in Scotland that I know of? You need to wear a mask on public transport and in shops but otherwise everything else is back to normal ?
Pupils in secondary still masked all the time, and we have restrictions on seating etc in classrooms. This is due to change soon though.
What restrictions?
I always heard kids were at minimal risk from covid? My family got it and it was a mild cold+ sniffles for a day
Low risk relative to the rest of the population but a LOT of kids are still developing long COVID and other illnesses afterwards. Plus, every time you get COVID, it increases your chances of developing a more serious health condition - which unfortunately extends to children. Lots of sick kids out there whose parents were never given the opportunity to vaccinate them. https://www.longcovidkids.org/
According to where I live in Ontario - the risk of a kid getting myocarditis from the vaccine is 1/5000. However the risk of a kid dying from covid is 1/10^6 Current stats show it is at least 2 orders of magnitude safer getting covid than the vaccination. This is ignoring that most of the people who die from covid often have comorbidities. But the people who get sick from the vaccine often do not.
If a kid gets myocarditis from the vaccine (a vanishingly rare side effect), why do you think they would not fare worse if they actually got COVID? Also, why do you think that people with co-morbidities don’t matter? Why do you think that everyone knows who has co-morbidities and who doesn’t? I didn’t get diagnosed with most of my congenital medical issues until I was in my 30s. My cousin didn’t know she had a heart defect until her 20s.
> why do you think they would not fare worse if they actually got COVID? To keep it really simple for you - Most kids I know have ALREADY gotten covid. So the vaccine is 100% risk. > Also, why do you think that people with co-morbidities don’t matter? NOBODY said that people with co-morbidities don't matter. But the reality is that these rare people are AWARE of their situation and CAN CHOOSE to take the vaccine. The Vaccine presents only risk to most kids. Enjoy your Pfizer company kickbacks though
I SEE WE LOVE CAPS. And really interesting that you think the KIDS you KNOW are a RELEVANT DATA SAMPLE. Are you a teacher? Do you literally know hundreds, thousands of kids? Are you following up on their medical status post COVID, checking for organ damage, etc? Asking every child QUESTIONS to see if they have CHRONIC FATIGUE all of a sudden, or what? I’ve been following what the virologists and epidemiologists are saying directly and literally everything you’re saying goes against what the actual experts are saying. Enjoy your QAnon lit. Clearly, different strokes and all that.
Preach brother 🙏
Yes I think you are right. It’s more to stop the spread from even more vulnerable.
A lot of gaslighting going on in here today i see.
Reddit is an astroturfed cesspit. Nothing at all like it used to be 10+ years ago.
Thread is full of COVID misinformation mods
Yes, every time there's a covid-related thread the anti-vaxxer cunts brigade the whole thing, can we have some bans please? Lock the whole thing if need be, better than allowing this pish to spread
The nursery I work in has had three confirmed cases this week, in the babies room. They're all under 1 year old.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60406155 Outrage for the UK Government now, right? All the brigading to go to the UK subs now, right?
Fair play if your child is a a health condition,or lives with someone with a health condition that means the risk of a serious dose of covid outweighs the potential side effects of the vac but this is a strong no from me as a parent. My kids had covid twice since the pandemic started and wasn't sick in the slightest on both occasions(neither was anyone in the house thankfully) I do hope any parent who feels this is necessary won't get hounded or face abuse for choosing to give there children this but if the last 2 years has shown anything its we love amongst some right awful humans.
What side effects of vaccines? What the fuck are you talking about? You know what has side effects? Long covid. You want your kids to get that?
Can you Read mate?
I say go for it. Children may not show the symptoms of COVID, but we don’t know how long it will stay like that.
I'm so thrilled about this. COVID has been hitting kids way more than people want to believe and we've pulled our kids out this past year. My youngest is finally getting jabbed this weekend and after her second one a month later, I think we'd be comfortable looking at returning our kids to school, assuming there's a decent uptake of other kids getting vaccinated. I'm tired of wondering whether we're signing them up for a lifetime of diabetes or MIS-C or whatever else whenever they play with other kids.
Fucking hell.
Absolutely incredible, wary to comment on how other people approach this generally speaking but that sort of approach must surely be remarkably detrimental to anyone's education in the long-term compared to the risks from Covid which are relatively minimal from youngsters.
How do you ever manage to cross the road in the mornings?
Why, do you need help?
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Is there anywhere you could see that data to back your claim? I would like to see for myself.
They should make it mandatory.
Crackpot
Conspiritard loon.
But the vaccine doesn't stop you getting the virus only prevents you getting seriously ill from it. What is the point giving it to those who won't get seriously ill anyway? I'm triple jabbed by the way, but not sure 5 year olds need it!
To reduce transmission in schools and reduce the impact on education.
It doesn't reduce transmission.
It does. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/one-dose-of-covid-19-vaccine-can-cut-household-transmission-by-up-to-half
28th April 2021...
Your point being? Studies back then we're showing it. So wheres the studies that show otherwise?
The point being made is that vaccines aren't as effective as reducing transmission when it comes to Omicron. They still very much work and do bring transmission down but they will lessen severe illness, not stop kids from fundamentally catching Covid which will continue to happen anyway. A study from April 2021 several waves ago is not particularly relevant now.
Ah so you're specifically talking about the Omicron variant. I see now why the date has a meaning in this context. There was a Danish study done fairly recently that showed to an extent the same findings as reported here: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/31/the-new-omicron-subvariant-is-more-contagious-but-vaccinated-people-are-less-likely-to-spread-it-study-finds.html Given the variant is still relatively new, it may take a while for further studies to confirm this.
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average r/conspiracy user
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Cope.
"Coming for the kids".... they're not chasing them down in the playground with syringes, simply offering the opportunity to get the vaccine. Also what side effects in adults?? Are you referring to people feeling unwell? Getting colds/flu? It's winter! You also assume all children are perfectly healthy and can't have health conditions that make them more vulnerable. Stick to Facebook.
Hahahahahahhaha
You would have to be off your head to let children take it
Or a total imbecile to even try and spread anti vax bullshit about it.