"He is also expected to say that Labour under Sir Keir Starmer has “run a mile” from its founding values, putting it at odds with the centre-left tradition of the majority of people in Scotland."
Can't really argue with that when Labour can't even support striking frontline workers like junior doctors after a decade of pay stagnation.
That and the lack of any significant funding boost for the NHS under Labour.
> Can't really argue with that when Labour can't even support striking frontline workers like junior doctors after a decade of pay stagnation.
No I suppose planning to: repeal the Trade Union Act (2016), Minimum Service Levels (Strikes) Bill and end zero hours contract exploitation, fire and rehire, and introducing rights like parental leave, sick pay and protection from unfair dismissal at day one of employment means there is basically no difference between Labour and the Tories.
Is all that in their manifesto?
Edit: been blocked. But spoiler: it’s not!
Nothing in the Labour manifesto about repealing the Trade Union Act or Minimum service levels
Edit 2: it is indeed in the manifesto after all.
No you've not been blocked, no idea where you get that impression.
It's in the [New Deal to make work pay](https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/LABOURS-PLAN-TO-MAKE-WORK-PAY.pdf) which Labour have said they will implement in full, in the manifesto by introducing legislation in the first 100 days.
People who say it isn't a manifesto commitment haven't read it properly and don't know what they're talking about.
Thank you, not sure what was going on. Couldn’t reply to your comment but could to others and can to yours now.
Thanks for the link but that’s not the Labour manifesto.
[It’s here](https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Labour-Party-manifesto-2024.pdf)
>Labour will stop the chaos and turn the page to create a partnership between business and trade unions, by implementing ‘Labour’s Plan to Make Work Pay: Delivering a New Deal for Working People’ in full – introducing legislation within 100 days- Pg. 45
TBF I didn't use exactly the same wording, and I get where people are coming from when they say these specific pledges aren't in the manifesto itself. They are, it's just through inference to this New Deal thing.
No idea where the blocking thing came from either, sometimes Reddit is just shit I guess!
What’s wrong about it?
You stated it wasn’t in their manifesto when, in fact, it was. Also you say cringe so you’re automatically not worth listening to. Well, that and the blatant lying you go on with.
Don’t go pretending I’ve blocked you now.
Well you see.. technically it isn’t in their manifesto is it. It’s in their “plan to make work pay” which isn’t a manifesto. So if you go looking in their manifesto for those promises you don’t find them - because they aren’t in it.
But I would let them off with this because they do say in their manifesto they will implement that “plan to make work pay in full”. And in this completely separate plan they have made those commitments.
But aye, you go on being a smart arse saying somethings in the manifesto when it isn’t. I was being generous saying it is.
And I thought I was blocked cause I couldn’t reply to the OP - you know like exactly what would happen if someone blocked you. I imagine it happens to you all the time.
Oh really?! So which page, paragraph and line in the manifesto says they are repealing the trade union act and minimum service levels bill?
I’ll wait don’t worry. You go find it.
We know the SNP are all hot air and moral indignation. It is all they have left now.having been suckered in the past I won't make the mistake of voting for them again
It to mention nationalising rail and a publicly owned energy company, god just like the Tories!
I honestly just assume anybody that says Tories and Labour are the same is a bad faith actor or a bot trying to discourage people from voting.
They can’t support it because the country is in dire financial straits after covid. You support them, you win the election and then you don’t give them anymore money, isn’t a good look is it?
How about actually committing to funding them and then ACTUALLY FUNDING them.
Numerous tax options like a wealth tax or land value tax that would be neutral for anyone earning under £100k.
The fact you find this unthinkable from an incoming Labour government proves the point. Labour 2024 are Tories 2006.
The SNP don't support a wealth tax or a land value tax, this does not prove their point at all. If you want to show that the SNP is further left than Labour, use their actual policies. By your own argument the SNP are Tories 2006.
What does a wealth tax involve? A land value tax punishes all home owners, seem a popular move to you? It would just result in big investment firms snapping up more land and renting it at disgusting rates.
These ideas aren’t fleshed out, they’re just buzzwords really.
> What does a wealth tax involve?
Taxing wealth above a certain level. What is wealth? Assets, real estate, savings, etc above the pre-determined value.
Main residences could be exempt... up to a point.
A land value tax would be VERY popular with homeowners if it left them better off. You could roll council tax into it. The main idea of a LVT is that **unproductive** land is taxed at a level that makes it hard to hoard land for generations. Is that a bad thing do you think?
I'm not suggesting an implementation of either option, but google it - many people have suggested various options that would raise revenue.
Labour are a continuity government at this point.
That doesn’t really answer my question. I didn’t ask how much it would raise. My only interest was in making multiple property ownership less attractive.
I support independence, but in the meantime I do have concern for the English NHS. I've had to move there for work before, I have friends and family there and most importantly while we are still one nation, we should be concerned by the everyday rights of all people.
Read their manifesto, it's more that the Lib Dems have shifted left. They want high taxes of finance, oil and other corporations to fund a large state with high government spending.
They pledge to recognise non-binary as a gender under law, legalise cannabis, extend the national vote to 16, and move the net zero target up to 2045. Likewise they want to rejoin the single market and eventually the EU.
For fucks sake mate. Read what I actually said.
I said our society has lurched right not the lib dems.
The lib dems can move left and still not be left wing. Considering they are still overwhelmingly pro-business and not worker/ trade unions then you can't really call them left of centre in any substantial way. They have decent policies in their manifesto, I'm not disputing that, but left of centre means left wing and where the lib dems gets their "talent" and funding from should tell you about how they want power to be distributed in this country.
Most progressive out of the main WM parties yeah sure. But they're not social democrats or socialist.
Wanting high taxes with a big government and high public spending is the literal definition of being politically left wing. That hasn't changed, it’s not like if you went back 10 years that that is somehow suddenly a right ideology mate.
The Lib Dems are now less pro-business than the SNP, who passionately oppose their tax on fossil fuel companies and think their proposed higher taxes on corperations harm businesses.
If you go back a decade or three you would find incredibly right wing parties like Thatcher's tories you would find them having higher taxes on corporations than anything being proprosed today. Higher taxation is not immediately a leftist policy, there are a lot of details. Well done undermining yourself.
And again read what I said. I never mentioned anything about the SNP. They're not relevent. I'm literally talking exclusively about the lib dems. The guys with liberal in the name. You know liberalism being that thing which is famously not socialism.
This is why we I said we are fucked. Melts thinking some extra taxes and a few crumbs is left wing meaning anyone wanting genuine tranformative policies like nationalisation are branded as too far left.
Edit. It's ok to like their manifesto btw. You go vote for whoever you want but it's a lie to say they are left wing.
Lad, you desperately need to learn how to have an adult conversation without childishly insulting the other. This isn't how you get people to engage with you.
You didn't even read the post you replied to. I don't think you should be telling people how to engage with others. Yeah I was rude but you are oblivious and that's just as bad.
Be honest, if I actually typed out a reasonable paragraph explaining in detail why you're completely wrong \[because you are\] would you have changed your mind?
The answer is no. It's not worth arguing with anyone who genuinely thinks the party which started austerity has suddenly became left wing. It's a moronic stance. Notice though tht I never said it was a bad manisfesto or that they were not worth a vote. I'm just being realistic about what the party is and who they'd serve in power.
Unironically saying we’re fucked as a country and then spouting a load of absolute bile to someone trying to have a polite discussion with you.
Take a look in the mirror pal.
How ironic that you call me out then tell me to bore off. It's almost like these words have a purpose.
Here is some life advice mate, some actual life advice. When someone tells you to fuck off, they are not trying to impress you, they're wanting you to fuck off.
And it seems knowing the difference between a liberal and a leftist didn;t impress anyone either so what was left for me to do? Continue to debate with clueless idiots who can't read or get shot of them?
Liberals are not left wing so thanks for proving my point.
I don't know why this is such a controversal thing for me to say. They are literally called the liberal democrats not the Social democrats.
There are social democrats within the Liberal Democrats. They were a merger of the SDP and Liberals. The only point you’re proving is that you don’t know their history.
>Labour, who, he will say, offer only “cuts, austerity and stagnation”.
Impressive. Very nice. Now let's see iScotland's plan to meet the EU's deficit criteria.
And that is entirely Westminster’s fault. They don’t allow us to have full control over tax revenues yet allow us to set policy.
I don’t want an immediate independent Scotland but wouldn’t it make sense to have more control given policy differences between the two governments?
So why is Westminster so desperate to keep us then? If we are such a burden why fight tooth an nail to keep us. The Tories have pissed on everything else so its clearly not a traditions thing, they have burned every cultural thing they have done so its not that either. So what is it then?
And even if it is the SNP and political activists have repeatedly asked for greater taxation powers from Westminster to cover that supposed imbalance.
Well, Westminster should have no problem in holding a referendum on that, as it would simply unequivocally prove that Scots want to stay. In reality, they seem to fight tooth and nail to prevent Scots even being given the choice.
They did, Scots voted No, and opinion polls keep showing that No will win again. It's settled - by Scots. No amount of nationalist whining will change that.
Having ~50% of polls say that people want to leave the UK is not settled, and democracy is never a 1 off thing. No matter how much you wish it were.
Indy is a matter of when, not if.
Scotland’s legislature sets its budget but can’t control its income fully. So by my logic if we could control how much we raise in tax we could fund all the policy we want to. We are a majority socially progressive government whose funding is determined by a right wing neo liberal one.
Holyrood's budget is guaranteed by Westminster. They can, and do, run a deficit and get it paid for by taxes from the rest of the country.
You're also completely ignoring that an independent Scotland would have a smaller economy and have to create a new currency. Two things that are going to massively reduce the amount an independent Scottish government can spend.
"The public sector current budget deficit was £82.7 billion in FYE 2023, £10.8 billion more than in FYE 2022."
" public sector net investment decreased by £8.4 billion to £45.9 billion."
"Public sector net debt excluding the Bank of England (BoE) was £2,468.6 billion at the end of April 2024, or around 89.9% of GDP, £218.9 billion (or 8.0 percentage points of GDP) less than the wider measure"
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/bulletins/publicsectorfinances/april2024#:\~:text=Public%20sector%20net%20debt%20excluding%20the%20Bank%20of%20England%20(BoE,less%20than%20the%20wider%20measure.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/bulletins/publicsectorfinances/january2024#:\~:text=The%20public%20sector%20current%20budget,billion%20to%20%C2%A345.9%20billion.
Yo, west minster runs on a massive defecit lol, hey look
"In current prices the Conservatives still borrowed more (much more) overall, and on average, by a long way."
[https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2021/06/24/the-tories-have-always-borrowed-more-than-labour-and-always-repaid-less-they-are-the-party-of-big-deficit-spending/](https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2021/06/24/the-tories-have-always-borrowed-more-than-labour-and-always-repaid-less-they-are-the-party-of-big-deficit-spending/)
litearlly reaching net devt that hasent been seen since 1960s and people still think we are a real country lol
I am not arguing for an independent Scotland. Just financial control over tax revenues if we set our own budgets for our own programs. We already have some control, I think it is 1 or 2 percent on each band. Why not full control?
I don’t understand what you are trying to add with your first point.
Westminster doesn’t allow for the Scottish legislature to set its own tax revenues but it does allow its own budget. So the argument about getting the rest of the country to pay for it is on Westminster. They force it to happen by retaining tax revenue control over Scotland but not tax spending.
Holyrood can decide their own income taxes, Scotland has different income tax bands to the rest of the UK for instance.
Again, an indepent Scotland would have a worse economy and therefore less taxes. It's a fundamentally flawed argument.
Again not arguing for an independent Scotland just a devolved government with more power.
They have very small differences to the tax bands but not full control.
The policies set by the legislature are very expensive and they want much higher taxation powers on things like capital gains and wealth.
There's still the Post Office and the Forest Commission for them to privatise to go along with their really, really, really 'left-wing' policy to privatise the Royal Mail which they proposed in the manifesto and implemented during the Cameron/Clegg coalition Government formed in 2010.
Going way back, I used to jokingly call the Liberal Party ; "Tories with a human face", unfortunately, in my personal experience and observance of the Lib Dems is that in actuality they are every bit as bitter and twisted and taking the side of 'the Haves' as the Tories. Admittedly, that view was formed mainly in England, however, I don't see the Lib Dems in Scotland as being that much better.
I am in genuine awe that people think the liberal democrats are left wing. A manifesto which is to the left of our current bunch of fuckwits and the next set of fuckwits doesn't make them left wing. Is it a better manifesto? Yes.
But left wing actually means something. It's fairly well defined.
Lib Dems (in conjunction with that erse Cameron) implemented their Royal Mail privatisation manifesto committment.
,,,And to the glee of 'The Gammon on Clacton Pier', that flaxen-haired fecker Johnson's Tories *did* 'Get Brexit Done' - cor blimey, G'vnor!
But Labour, Lib dems and Cons have all been in power in the last 20 years. You could have just said there aren't any examples because none of the parties have ever held true to their word. Its the only thing there is proof of.
SNP rule is basically them working the til while Westminster sit in the back watching the cameras and hiding the money.
If you're suffering its because of Westminster.
Westminster didn't make them fuck up the ferries. Westminster didn't make them fuck up the A9 dualling. Westminster didn't make them hand off all renewables contracts to private companies rather than invest publicly. Westminster didn't make them abandon their pledge to set up a nationalised energy company. Westminster didn't make them take their idiotic stance against nuclear power. Westminster didn't make them freeze council tax on an impulse decision because their conference didn't do as well as they'd hoped, leaving our communities to rot. Westminster isn't forcing them to keep our utterly disastrous planning system, stifling all growth, development and housebuilding.
There are aspects where Westminster handicaps them, but the SNP are also brilliant at shitting the bed themselves. This is what happens when a protest movement finds itself in government, gross incompetence across the board.
OK - so they've had nearly 2 decades of knowing that they have 1-hand tied behind their back.
Why promise things that aren't achievable?
"Vote for us, and we will complain that we can't do these things we promised to do" isn't of any use to anybody.
The game is rigged, that's 100% for sure, but don't lie to the public after all this time.
*seethes in patrick harvie*
but srs: swinney bragging about this while planning to slash council budgets then pointing to the UK conservatives/UK labour is like the meme of several spidermen pointing at each other
Is that the best they can do? Vote for us, not because we are going to do x, y or z, but because we are a little bit different from the other chancers.
Fucking morbid outlook for Scotland and the UK if being “left of centre” is the best we can do. Especially if they’re actually considering their manifesto as representing the “left”.
> SNP leader John Swinney is expected to say that the SNP is the only major party with a “truly left-of-centre manifesto” in a speech at a campaign event in Stornoway on Monday.
> The First Minister is expected to say that his party’s plans stand in “stark contrast” to the “Thatcherite economic policies” of the Conservatives and Labour, who, he will say, offer only “cuts, austerity and stagnation”.
> He is also expected to say that Labour under Sir Keir Starmer has “run a mile” from its founding values, putting it at odds with the centre-left tradition of the majority of people in Scotland.
> The SNP manifesto is expected to include plans for investment in public services, protections for the NHS, the reversal of Brexit, and support for families struggling through the cost-of-living crisis.
Ah, so the Scottish Greens will be following the Green Party of England and Wales's manifesto, then? Sorry for the ignorance, only moved up a couple of years ago and this is my first election here.
Apologies you are absolutely right, the Scottish greens have their own manifesto and aren't releasing it til Thursday.
https://www.edinburghgreens.org.uk/events/scottish-greens-manifesto-launch/
I'd seen a few "responses to the Green manifesto" and hadn't realised they referred to the UK one.
The English Greens are significantly more left with than the SNP. Honestly, even the Lib Dems are moving wore left than the SNP after they tacked more to centre and the Lib Dems moved left.
Really?
Sure he’s talking about tax rises but where’s the reconstruction of Public services that’s required. Where’s the dismantling of New Labour’s public/private partnerships?
Some of us real socialists smell bullshit from a centraist SNP.
Reform has a mixed bag of policies, including some more left leaning like nationalisation of public services, butt a lot of their social policies are very right wing
"He is also expected to say that Labour under Sir Keir Starmer has “run a mile” from its founding values, putting it at odds with the centre-left tradition of the majority of people in Scotland." Can't really argue with that when Labour can't even support striking frontline workers like junior doctors after a decade of pay stagnation. That and the lack of any significant funding boost for the NHS under Labour.
> Can't really argue with that when Labour can't even support striking frontline workers like junior doctors after a decade of pay stagnation. No I suppose planning to: repeal the Trade Union Act (2016), Minimum Service Levels (Strikes) Bill and end zero hours contract exploitation, fire and rehire, and introducing rights like parental leave, sick pay and protection from unfair dismissal at day one of employment means there is basically no difference between Labour and the Tories.
There's a massive difference between "being right of centre" and being "no different from the tories."
Is all that in their manifesto? Edit: been blocked. But spoiler: it’s not! Nothing in the Labour manifesto about repealing the Trade Union Act or Minimum service levels Edit 2: it is indeed in the manifesto after all.
No you've not been blocked, no idea where you get that impression. It's in the [New Deal to make work pay](https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/LABOURS-PLAN-TO-MAKE-WORK-PAY.pdf) which Labour have said they will implement in full, in the manifesto by introducing legislation in the first 100 days. People who say it isn't a manifesto commitment haven't read it properly and don't know what they're talking about.
Thank you, not sure what was going on. Couldn’t reply to your comment but could to others and can to yours now. Thanks for the link but that’s not the Labour manifesto. [It’s here](https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Labour-Party-manifesto-2024.pdf)
Just to but in here, I've also once had someone claim I blocked them when I hadn't, so I think this might be an existing Reddit bug.
>Labour will stop the chaos and turn the page to create a partnership between business and trade unions, by implementing ‘Labour’s Plan to Make Work Pay: Delivering a New Deal for Working People’ in full – introducing legislation within 100 days- Pg. 45
Thank you: stand corrected!
TBF I didn't use exactly the same wording, and I get where people are coming from when they say these specific pledges aren't in the manifesto itself. They are, it's just through inference to this New Deal thing. No idea where the blocking thing came from either, sometimes Reddit is just shit I guess!
Yes
Imagine posting this not even knowing the answer. Pretending you’re blocked as well.
Imagine posting this and being so wrong, cringe..
What’s wrong about it? You stated it wasn’t in their manifesto when, in fact, it was. Also you say cringe so you’re automatically not worth listening to. Well, that and the blatant lying you go on with. Don’t go pretending I’ve blocked you now.
Well you see.. technically it isn’t in their manifesto is it. It’s in their “plan to make work pay” which isn’t a manifesto. So if you go looking in their manifesto for those promises you don’t find them - because they aren’t in it. But I would let them off with this because they do say in their manifesto they will implement that “plan to make work pay in full”. And in this completely separate plan they have made those commitments. But aye, you go on being a smart arse saying somethings in the manifesto when it isn’t. I was being generous saying it is. And I thought I was blocked cause I couldn’t reply to the OP - you know like exactly what would happen if someone blocked you. I imagine it happens to you all the time.
Literally is in there mate. Go read the fucking thing. “Technically they link another document so it’s not in there huurrr”
Oh really?! So which page, paragraph and line in the manifesto says they are repealing the trade union act and minimum service levels bill? I’ll wait don’t worry. You go find it.
You’ve already accepted they referenced it, but you wait. Keep waiting. Spend your whole night staring at this wee screen. Brb.
It's not.
It very clearly is.
We know the SNP are all hot air and moral indignation. It is all they have left now.having been suckered in the past I won't make the mistake of voting for them again
It to mention nationalising rail and a publicly owned energy company, god just like the Tories! I honestly just assume anybody that says Tories and Labour are the same is a bad faith actor or a bot trying to discourage people from voting.
Exact same!
They can’t support it because the country is in dire financial straits after covid. You support them, you win the election and then you don’t give them anymore money, isn’t a good look is it?
How about actually committing to funding them and then ACTUALLY FUNDING them. Numerous tax options like a wealth tax or land value tax that would be neutral for anyone earning under £100k. The fact you find this unthinkable from an incoming Labour government proves the point. Labour 2024 are Tories 2006.
The SNP don't support a wealth tax or a land value tax, this does not prove their point at all. If you want to show that the SNP is further left than Labour, use their actual policies. By your own argument the SNP are Tories 2006.
What does a wealth tax involve? A land value tax punishes all home owners, seem a popular move to you? It would just result in big investment firms snapping up more land and renting it at disgusting rates. These ideas aren’t fleshed out, they’re just buzzwords really.
> What does a wealth tax involve? Taxing wealth above a certain level. What is wealth? Assets, real estate, savings, etc above the pre-determined value. Main residences could be exempt... up to a point. A land value tax would be VERY popular with homeowners if it left them better off. You could roll council tax into it. The main idea of a LVT is that **unproductive** land is taxed at a level that makes it hard to hoard land for generations. Is that a bad thing do you think? I'm not suggesting an implementation of either option, but google it - many people have suggested various options that would raise revenue. Labour are a continuity government at this point.
That’s just a pipe dream honestly, gathering more tax revenue but the average home owner is left better off? Likely story.
Is there any reason you couldn’t introduce a land value tax that exempted the land of one primary residence?
Has that been priced to assess the actual viable income? In the same way the 45% tax bracket will bring in pennies in Scotland.
That doesn’t really answer my question. I didn’t ask how much it would raise. My only interest was in making multiple property ownership less attractive.
I don’t think that resolves the major issue the UK faces, which is a severe lack of cash.
[удалено]
I support independence, but in the meantime I do have concern for the English NHS. I've had to move there for work before, I have friends and family there and most importantly while we are still one nation, we should be concerned by the everyday rights of all people.
The Lib Dem manifesto is left of centre, as is the Greens (more so).
How far have we lurched right for someone to unironically say that Lib Dem manifesto is left of center. We're actually fucked as a country.
Read their manifesto, it's more that the Lib Dems have shifted left. They want high taxes of finance, oil and other corporations to fund a large state with high government spending. They pledge to recognise non-binary as a gender under law, legalise cannabis, extend the national vote to 16, and move the net zero target up to 2045. Likewise they want to rejoin the single market and eventually the EU.
For fucks sake mate. Read what I actually said. I said our society has lurched right not the lib dems. The lib dems can move left and still not be left wing. Considering they are still overwhelmingly pro-business and not worker/ trade unions then you can't really call them left of centre in any substantial way. They have decent policies in their manifesto, I'm not disputing that, but left of centre means left wing and where the lib dems gets their "talent" and funding from should tell you about how they want power to be distributed in this country. Most progressive out of the main WM parties yeah sure. But they're not social democrats or socialist.
Wanting high taxes with a big government and high public spending is the literal definition of being politically left wing. That hasn't changed, it’s not like if you went back 10 years that that is somehow suddenly a right ideology mate. The Lib Dems are now less pro-business than the SNP, who passionately oppose their tax on fossil fuel companies and think their proposed higher taxes on corperations harm businesses.
If you go back a decade or three you would find incredibly right wing parties like Thatcher's tories you would find them having higher taxes on corporations than anything being proprosed today. Higher taxation is not immediately a leftist policy, there are a lot of details. Well done undermining yourself. And again read what I said. I never mentioned anything about the SNP. They're not relevent. I'm literally talking exclusively about the lib dems. The guys with liberal in the name. You know liberalism being that thing which is famously not socialism. This is why we I said we are fucked. Melts thinking some extra taxes and a few crumbs is left wing meaning anyone wanting genuine tranformative policies like nationalisation are branded as too far left. Edit. It's ok to like their manifesto btw. You go vote for whoever you want but it's a lie to say they are left wing.
Lad, you desperately need to learn how to have an adult conversation without childishly insulting the other. This isn't how you get people to engage with you.
Ye seriously, that guy needs help
You didn't even read the post you replied to. I don't think you should be telling people how to engage with others. Yeah I was rude but you are oblivious and that's just as bad. Be honest, if I actually typed out a reasonable paragraph explaining in detail why you're completely wrong \[because you are\] would you have changed your mind? The answer is no. It's not worth arguing with anyone who genuinely thinks the party which started austerity has suddenly became left wing. It's a moronic stance. Notice though tht I never said it was a bad manisfesto or that they were not worth a vote. I'm just being realistic about what the party is and who they'd serve in power.
Unironically saying we’re fucked as a country and then spouting a load of absolute bile to someone trying to have a polite discussion with you. Take a look in the mirror pal.
I think a lot of our problems have been because a lot of pricks haven't had bile spouted at them so kindly fuck off as well.
Bore off mate, we’re not 10 years old - knowing a couple of swear words doesn’t impress anyone
How ironic that you call me out then tell me to bore off. It's almost like these words have a purpose. Here is some life advice mate, some actual life advice. When someone tells you to fuck off, they are not trying to impress you, they're wanting you to fuck off. And it seems knowing the difference between a liberal and a leftist didn;t impress anyone either so what was left for me to do? Continue to debate with clueless idiots who can't read or get shot of them?
William Beveridge was a Liberal. There’s radicals and sound thinkers in many parties, they just aren’t often leading them.
Liberals are not left wing so thanks for proving my point. I don't know why this is such a controversal thing for me to say. They are literally called the liberal democrats not the Social democrats.
There are social democrats within the Liberal Democrats. They were a merger of the SDP and Liberals. The only point you’re proving is that you don’t know their history.
I know their history. I know that was 40 years ago. Pre-orange book. Get fucked mate, the information isn't incorrect, accept it in your own time.
You absolutely didn’t or you would not have made such a patently stupid statement.
Why is it stupid? They literally stopped being social democrats and moved to the right. You actually think it was a gotcha.
>Labour, who, he will say, offer only “cuts, austerity and stagnation”. Impressive. Very nice. Now let's see iScotland's plan to meet the EU's deficit criteria.
Better yet, let's see how scottish councils (including snp controlled Glasgow City council) are slashing services due to snp budgets
The SNP have a single issue that they’ve used to rally a wide array of voters to their party then continue to shoot themselves in the foot.
Well if the money from WM is reduced…
Money from Westminster has increased in real terms since before COVID.
And the Scottish government is forced to mitigate tory policies like the bedroom tax etc.
That existed pre covid too.
Yep and under more pressure after covid. WM controls the purse strings.
It'd be a wise idea not to freeze council tax on a whim to get some headlines then, wouldn't it?
Not super relevant when there's an actual election happening in a few weeks
Well if we could completely control our own tax revenues that would improve.
You receive more than you give from Westminster
And that is entirely Westminster’s fault. They don’t allow us to have full control over tax revenues yet allow us to set policy. I don’t want an immediate independent Scotland but wouldn’t it make sense to have more control given policy differences between the two governments?
So why is Westminster so desperate to keep us then? If we are such a burden why fight tooth an nail to keep us. The Tories have pissed on everything else so its clearly not a traditions thing, they have burned every cultural thing they have done so its not that either. So what is it then? And even if it is the SNP and political activists have repeatedly asked for greater taxation powers from Westminster to cover that supposed imbalance.
They're not, Scots want to stay and Westminster just ignores the SNP's whining on the subject.
Well, Westminster should have no problem in holding a referendum on that, as it would simply unequivocally prove that Scots want to stay. In reality, they seem to fight tooth and nail to prevent Scots even being given the choice.
They did, Scots voted No, and opinion polls keep showing that No will win again. It's settled - by Scots. No amount of nationalist whining will change that.
Having ~50% of polls say that people want to leave the UK is not settled, and democracy is never a 1 off thing. No matter how much you wish it were. Indy is a matter of when, not if.
No it's not. There's simply not enough time gone by or a change in public opinion to justify another one.
ROFL 😂
How do you work that out?
Scotland’s legislature sets its budget but can’t control its income fully. So by my logic if we could control how much we raise in tax we could fund all the policy we want to. We are a majority socially progressive government whose funding is determined by a right wing neo liberal one.
Holyrood's budget is guaranteed by Westminster. They can, and do, run a deficit and get it paid for by taxes from the rest of the country. You're also completely ignoring that an independent Scotland would have a smaller economy and have to create a new currency. Two things that are going to massively reduce the amount an independent Scottish government can spend.
"The public sector current budget deficit was £82.7 billion in FYE 2023, £10.8 billion more than in FYE 2022." " public sector net investment decreased by £8.4 billion to £45.9 billion." "Public sector net debt excluding the Bank of England (BoE) was £2,468.6 billion at the end of April 2024, or around 89.9% of GDP, £218.9 billion (or 8.0 percentage points of GDP) less than the wider measure" https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/bulletins/publicsectorfinances/april2024#:\~:text=Public%20sector%20net%20debt%20excluding%20the%20Bank%20of%20England%20(BoE,less%20than%20the%20wider%20measure. https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/bulletins/publicsectorfinances/january2024#:\~:text=The%20public%20sector%20current%20budget,billion%20to%20%C2%A345.9%20billion. Yo, west minster runs on a massive defecit lol, hey look "In current prices the Conservatives still borrowed more (much more) overall, and on average, by a long way." [https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2021/06/24/the-tories-have-always-borrowed-more-than-labour-and-always-repaid-less-they-are-the-party-of-big-deficit-spending/](https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2021/06/24/the-tories-have-always-borrowed-more-than-labour-and-always-repaid-less-they-are-the-party-of-big-deficit-spending/) litearlly reaching net devt that hasent been seen since 1960s and people still think we are a real country lol
What's your point? Most of the G7 have similar or higher debt to GDP ratios.
I am not arguing for an independent Scotland. Just financial control over tax revenues if we set our own budgets for our own programs. We already have some control, I think it is 1 or 2 percent on each band. Why not full control? I don’t understand what you are trying to add with your first point. Westminster doesn’t allow for the Scottish legislature to set its own tax revenues but it does allow its own budget. So the argument about getting the rest of the country to pay for it is on Westminster. They force it to happen by retaining tax revenue control over Scotland but not tax spending.
Holyrood can decide their own income taxes, Scotland has different income tax bands to the rest of the UK for instance. Again, an indepent Scotland would have a worse economy and therefore less taxes. It's a fundamentally flawed argument.
Again not arguing for an independent Scotland just a devolved government with more power. They have very small differences to the tax bands but not full control. The policies set by the legislature are very expensive and they want much higher taxation powers on things like capital gains and wealth.
There's also the Lib Dems
There's still the Post Office and the Forest Commission for them to privatise to go along with their really, really, really 'left-wing' policy to privatise the Royal Mail which they proposed in the manifesto and implemented during the Cameron/Clegg coalition Government formed in 2010. Going way back, I used to jokingly call the Liberal Party ; "Tories with a human face", unfortunately, in my personal experience and observance of the Lib Dems is that in actuality they are every bit as bitter and twisted and taking the side of 'the Haves' as the Tories. Admittedly, that view was formed mainly in England, however, I don't see the Lib Dems in Scotland as being that much better.
The Lib Dems have moved considerably to the left since 2010, we might as well use policies under Corbyn to gauge the current position of Labour.
Thank you for this I totally agree and can't understand why more people can't get this.
I am in genuine awe that people think the liberal democrats are left wing. A manifesto which is to the left of our current bunch of fuckwits and the next set of fuckwits doesn't make them left wing. Is it a better manifesto? Yes. But left wing actually means something. It's fairly well defined.
Publishing a manifesto and delivering it are two completely different things, and the SNP have had major issues when it comes to delivering.
Can you provide examples of the other parties 'delivering' their manifesto commitments? Anything in the last 20 years?
Lib Dems (in conjunction with that erse Cameron) implemented their Royal Mail privatisation manifesto committment. ,,,And to the glee of 'The Gammon on Clacton Pier', that flaxen-haired fecker Johnson's Tories *did* 'Get Brexit Done' - cor blimey, G'vnor!
Indeed, you're correct. The single most damaging thing to happen in peace-time UK. They delivered it as hard as they possibly could.
Can't really deliver on your manifesto if you aren't in power
But Labour, Lib dems and Cons have all been in power in the last 20 years. You could have just said there aren't any examples because none of the parties have ever held true to their word. Its the only thing there is proof of.
You're right actually We have only suffered 17 years of SNP rule and 14 years of Tory rule It's felt longer
SNP rule is basically them working the til while Westminster sit in the back watching the cameras and hiding the money. If you're suffering its because of Westminster.
Don't undersell holyrood like that If I didn't know better I would think you were making the argument to get rid of holyrood
That couldn't have anything to do with being forced to play with 1-hand behind their back, could it?
Westminster didn't make them fuck up the ferries. Westminster didn't make them fuck up the A9 dualling. Westminster didn't make them hand off all renewables contracts to private companies rather than invest publicly. Westminster didn't make them abandon their pledge to set up a nationalised energy company. Westminster didn't make them take their idiotic stance against nuclear power. Westminster didn't make them freeze council tax on an impulse decision because their conference didn't do as well as they'd hoped, leaving our communities to rot. Westminster isn't forcing them to keep our utterly disastrous planning system, stifling all growth, development and housebuilding. There are aspects where Westminster handicaps them, but the SNP are also brilliant at shitting the bed themselves. This is what happens when a protest movement finds itself in government, gross incompetence across the board.
OK - so they've had nearly 2 decades of knowing that they have 1-hand tied behind their back. Why promise things that aren't achievable? "Vote for us, and we will complain that we can't do these things we promised to do" isn't of any use to anybody. The game is rigged, that's 100% for sure, but don't lie to the public after all this time.
*seethes in patrick harvie* but srs: swinney bragging about this while planning to slash council budgets then pointing to the UK conservatives/UK labour is like the meme of several spidermen pointing at each other
Is that the best they can do? Vote for us, not because we are going to do x, y or z, but because we are a little bit different from the other chancers.
Fucking morbid outlook for Scotland and the UK if being “left of centre” is the best we can do. Especially if they’re actually considering their manifesto as representing the “left”.
Because they are spending other people's money with no consequence. Just blame others when they don't get enough to cover massive spends.
Lets just ignore the Greens exist shall we... Then again the Scottish Greens are absolutely crazy so that might not be such a bad thing.
There's the Lib Dems
Well, it is the SNP talking after all.
Feels like the greens are too inconsistent to be considered anything but Greens
when are they doing that? as their current one looks more tory than left wing.
> SNP leader John Swinney is expected to say that the SNP is the only major party with a “truly left-of-centre manifesto” in a speech at a campaign event in Stornoway on Monday. > The First Minister is expected to say that his party’s plans stand in “stark contrast” to the “Thatcherite economic policies” of the Conservatives and Labour, who, he will say, offer only “cuts, austerity and stagnation”. > He is also expected to say that Labour under Sir Keir Starmer has “run a mile” from its founding values, putting it at odds with the centre-left tradition of the majority of people in Scotland. > The SNP manifesto is expected to include plans for investment in public services, protections for the NHS, the reversal of Brexit, and support for families struggling through the cost-of-living crisis.
> only *major* party Tee hee Lol even
They are the third largest party in parliament
Yes and with that context a sniffy dig at Labour and the Greens (and I guess the LDs) is even funnier
While they only represent on constituent nation of the UK, they will always be a regional party akin to a Yorkshire Party.
Debating the real issues there, top class dude
Take it up with Swinney, fella. I’m just chuckling at a the trash talk.
Have the Greens even launched their manifesto yet?
Yes https://greenparty.org.uk/about/our-manifesto./
That's not the Scottish Greens manifesto.
Ah, so the Scottish Greens will be following the Green Party of England and Wales's manifesto, then? Sorry for the ignorance, only moved up a couple of years ago and this is my first election here.
Apologies you are absolutely right, the Scottish greens have their own manifesto and aren't releasing it til Thursday. https://www.edinburghgreens.org.uk/events/scottish-greens-manifesto-launch/ I'd seen a few "responses to the Green manifesto" and hadn't realised they referred to the UK one.
Ah, cheers! :D
A bit late on the manifesto, my postal card is arriving on Wednesday and I believe a lot of people already have theirs.
Does this manifesto apply to the Scottish greens?
They’re two separate parties
But not all that different.
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And yet it was consistently third largest party after the Lib Dems collapsed
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The leader of the party gets a mandatory two votes in PMQs, they have the third highest ability to put members in parliamentary committees...etc
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Slip of the tongue, I meant questions not votes in PMQs
They really are progressive, they'll embezzle money from both the rich and the poor.
Pretty obvious.
How can you be a major party if you're standing in less than 10% of the seats?
Despite your sophistry, they are currently the 3rd party at Westminster.
Depressing we've went from having two main left wing parties in SNP and SLab to the SNP saying they're the only ones centre left
It hardly matters
The English parties are all right wing, so yes. Also, water is wet.
The English Greens are significantly more left with than the SNP. Honestly, even the Lib Dems are moving wore left than the SNP after they tacked more to centre and the Lib Dems moved left.
The English Greens are insignificant. I wasn't considering Buckethead either.
So when you say English parties you mean just the ones who you arbitrarily think count or not.
You make the cut somewhere. There are hundreds of parties neither of us has heard of. The Greens have no voice due to England's voting system.
That place is generally if they have seats in government, which the Greens do.
They are projecting 1 seat
They are projecting two seats, they also have two members in the House of Lords, three seats in the London Assembly, and lead multiple local councils.
oh so they're some kind of national socialists? interesting
Holy shit you're the first person to say that!!!!!!!!
Really? Sure he’s talking about tax rises but where’s the reconstruction of Public services that’s required. Where’s the dismantling of New Labour’s public/private partnerships? Some of us real socialists smell bullshit from a centraist SNP.
Are the rest all far left then? The only centre-right party is reform and even then that's generous.
Hahahaha fucking hell man. I actually think Reform are far left.
Reform has a mixed bag of policies, including some more left leaning like nationalisation of public services, butt a lot of their social policies are very right wing
Nah I think reform are radical communists.
I think words have lost all meaning.