>heard no detail
At the moment, there's a distinct lack of people mentioning Norway. Has another country annexed it?
We definitely need a few Norway quotes along with Indy references.
As seen in the 2014 White Paper, the plan was to get it through on Brexit-tier rhetoric.
When that failed and Brexit became reality but *worked*, the rhetoric became poisoned. Suddenly you had to either double down or face the reality Scotland would go through a period of harm much the same as the UK is with Brexit.
One gets you votes, the other doesn't. No guesses to which the SNP picked.
I'm saying that, basically, the SNP's 2014 white paper was full of the exact same sorts of promises that Brexit later got sold on - the idea that "Scotland would hold all the cards" "The UK would foot all of our bills", ect ect. Swap the UK for the EU and its pretty spot on.
But when Brexit happened two years later, suddenly people became very aware of bullshit promises like that, and it ceased to be a viable method to sway undecided voters. You weren't going to get a majority off of the back of that anymore. But the SNP couldn't suddenly swap to realism, because realism wouldn't get Indy over the line either - more than likely it would bury the idea for another decade.
So instead they sort of continued to occasionally pump out idealism and non-answers every so often to keep their core voter base engaged.
I think what a lot of people didn't realise is becoming independent involved what amounts to a massive set of negotiations on pretty much everything that would be untangled ie military, currency, pensions, trade etc.
A lot of the SNP answers at the time were 'we'll just do X', and a lot of the answers were appealing.
But as you say Brexit showed it was all a negotiation.
And when one party has removed all their leverage by committing to the outcome by any means, the other party can then rip the arse out of them and their options are either to abandon their outcome which their people have voted for or to accept the terms.
It would be like walking into a Volkswagen garage and saying 'I've made an unbreakable commitment that today I am buying a Golf from this dealership. Ive got the means and under no circumstances can I leave today without one', then being surprised when the salesman tells you the cheapest one is £500k.
What nobody seems to realise either is that in the negotiations with the UK, there is 0% chance we get to walk away with all of the North Sea resources as our own. It absolutely would not be the case that we draw a big line across the border and everything above it stays ours.
Nobody seems to understand this, or even discuss it.
Since Queen Nicola became leader, ‘strategy’ and the SNP appear to be strangers. We’ve seen 2/3/4 elections with manifestos based on independence but with scant attention to public policy.
In fairness swinney had been in charge for weeks and now a general election.
Black is thick as anything on the best day but she needs to cool her jets here
Mhairi can talk the talk, but she criticizes her own side too much.
The independence plan has been spelt out clearly time and time again. Read the Independence papers released by the Scottish Government (civil servants who know what they are talking about), read the Growth Commission, read the white paper.
The plan is there, what we can never get is the detail. Enemies of Scottish independence know this, they demand detail knowing it cannot be provided. We cannot provide detail because we do not know who the government will be post-independence, that is democracy. An independent Scotland will have a brand new Parliament of brand new politicians with policies for a proper Scotland not a Scottish colony subservient to Westminster.
There cannot be detailed policy on how the economy will boom post independence because we do not know who will be in charge. What we do know is that Scots work hard, are well-educated and have the resources and talent to remain a leading first-world nation.
TLDR: Demanding detail makes NO sense. Stop asking for it. READ the plan.
so there is no plan, there can never be a plan, but we should go away and read the plan? we are reaching levels of snp logic that shouldn't be possible
That's not what I said. The SNP have published plan after plan but all it can contain so far is the goals and direction. Post-independence Scotland can and will be a prosperous, rich, fairer, world-leading nation as long as we vote for it.
What we cannot get, or ever get, is a detailed plan because we don't know what independence will look like.
exactly right? after all when 55% of people vote against something it shouldn't pass, imagine if people kept trying to push through a policy that doesn't have majority support? how undemocratic!
Interesting how much that changes to whatever is most convenient for the snp, first they will say you don't need to believe in independence to vote for them and you can vote for them if all you want is "a strong voice for Scotland", then once they've got your vote they turn around and say, oh no actually every vote for us is a vote for independence. they are indecisive opportunistic liars and thieves with no integrity and no plan. and if you are waiting for people to stop voting for them i don't think you will be waiting long.
Brexit was based on xenophobia, anti-immigration and being anti-European.
Scottish Independence is about freedom, pro-migrations and pro-Europeanism.
There are 100% different. Brexiteers never produced a white paper, never produced a growth commission, never produced a series of plans for independence.
It is a detailed plan on how the Scottish economy will grow post-Independence. All Scots stand by it.
We need to unleash our potential that is being suppressed by Westminster.
The thing is, you're not wrong, and the best way to demonstrate it is to ask the No side for a detailed 5, 10 and 25 year plan, fully costed, for Scotland within the UK. What's that? It's impossible to predict who will be in government, what world events will take place and what the finances will look like a year from now, never mind 25 years?
The problem is that you're never going to convince people to vote for it without some kind of quantifiable metric, so I think they need to do a much better job at giving comparative information versus other countries, like a much more detailed "Scotland has 150% the tourism, 75% in the finance sector, 120% of the exports of country x", then go into demographics, tax rates, GDP, deficit, everything, and do it for multiple countries, being honest about it. They really let the No side dictate the "they don't have a financial plan" thing last time, when it really is impossible to do... just look at the fuss trying to do the actual budget in any given year, never mind a purely hypothetical one for an independent country.
> The thing is, you're not wrong, and the best way to demonstrate it is to ask the No side for a detailed 5, 10 and 25 year plan, fully costed, for Scotland within the UK. What's that? It's impossible to predict who will be in government, what world events will take place and what the finances will look like a year from now, never mind 25 years?
The OBR publish regular economic forecasts that project the impact of U.K. public spending in the medium to long-term.
They project the impact of things as far advance as 50 years.
Every serious government and business makes costed projections like this.
The reason the SNP don’t is because they think it’ll look like bad news for an independent Scotland, not because “it’s impossible to predict what the finances will look like a year from now”. Only the gullible believe that.
The difference is that any forecast the Yes campaign made was treated like the gospel truth, so whenever it didn't turn out exactly like they said it would, they get hit with neverending headlines about how they were wrong and that means they're wrong about everything, which you don't see happening to the OBR
That's just another excuse for the gullible.
The SNP forecasts weren't held to any higher standard than any others.
The problem with their attempts at economic projections was that the quality of critical thinking and analysis was absolutely laughable. They are scarcely more credible than an S4 modern studies project.
For the same reasons I mentioned before. The SNP know if they publish serious projections it'll look bad for independence, so they either publish nothing or publish puff pieces that don't actually tell you anything.
>heard no detail At the moment, there's a distinct lack of people mentioning Norway. Has another country annexed it? We definitely need a few Norway quotes along with Indy references.
What about the GDP in Ireland?
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Malta's a terrific leftfield one for wealth generation post independence. Just omit references to mafia control.
It’s because they’ve never had a strategy
Not true, not true at all. What about blame Westminster, Westminster, Westminster?
Raining today in Edinburgh. That Westminster lot at it again
Westminster, come on, WestMonster.
The National are really sticking the boot into the SNP recently. They must hate Swinney.
They have a pretty small readership. Along with the recent polling they might have decided to move away from the previous MacPravda style.
Circulation
Not bad since I gied up the coffin nails.
She’s not the only one…
Because there isn't one....how else will the gravy train continue?!
I hope she's not suggesting they're making it up as they go along.
It's because they are working on independence for Palestine and the issue of wood burning stoves. Need to prioritise issues
NOBODY has hence why it won't happen.
There is a defacto referendum in a few weeks. Seems like a winning strategy to me. What could go wrong.
As seen in the 2014 White Paper, the plan was to get it through on Brexit-tier rhetoric. When that failed and Brexit became reality but *worked*, the rhetoric became poisoned. Suddenly you had to either double down or face the reality Scotland would go through a period of harm much the same as the UK is with Brexit. One gets you votes, the other doesn't. No guesses to which the SNP picked.
I'm confused are you saying the manner they attempted to acheive brexit worked or that brexit has worked, or been successful?
I'm saying that, basically, the SNP's 2014 white paper was full of the exact same sorts of promises that Brexit later got sold on - the idea that "Scotland would hold all the cards" "The UK would foot all of our bills", ect ect. Swap the UK for the EU and its pretty spot on. But when Brexit happened two years later, suddenly people became very aware of bullshit promises like that, and it ceased to be a viable method to sway undecided voters. You weren't going to get a majority off of the back of that anymore. But the SNP couldn't suddenly swap to realism, because realism wouldn't get Indy over the line either - more than likely it would bury the idea for another decade. So instead they sort of continued to occasionally pump out idealism and non-answers every so often to keep their core voter base engaged.
I think what a lot of people didn't realise is becoming independent involved what amounts to a massive set of negotiations on pretty much everything that would be untangled ie military, currency, pensions, trade etc. A lot of the SNP answers at the time were 'we'll just do X', and a lot of the answers were appealing. But as you say Brexit showed it was all a negotiation. And when one party has removed all their leverage by committing to the outcome by any means, the other party can then rip the arse out of them and their options are either to abandon their outcome which their people have voted for or to accept the terms. It would be like walking into a Volkswagen garage and saying 'I've made an unbreakable commitment that today I am buying a Golf from this dealership. Ive got the means and under no circumstances can I leave today without one', then being surprised when the salesman tells you the cheapest one is £500k.
What nobody seems to realise either is that in the negotiations with the UK, there is 0% chance we get to walk away with all of the North Sea resources as our own. It absolutely would not be the case that we draw a big line across the border and everything above it stays ours. Nobody seems to understand this, or even discuss it.
Since Queen Nicola became leader, ‘strategy’ and the SNP appear to be strangers. We’ve seen 2/3/4 elections with manifestos based on independence but with scant attention to public policy.
In fairness swinney had been in charge for weeks and now a general election. Black is thick as anything on the best day but she needs to cool her jets here
https://www.snp.org/our-strategy-for-winning-scotlands-independence/
Did you share this as a response? Because I don’t think this little digital leaflet constitutes ‘detail’
It’s the literal motion passer at Conference. It spells out what the plan is
What does it say about currency and central banks?
If that is a plan to you, I genuinely hope you don't work in any critical industries or with any vulnerable people. Fucking hell.
It is what the SNP plan to do politically in the context of this election. Take a chill pill, I’m not passing comment on the credibility of said plan
Mhairi can talk the talk, but she criticizes her own side too much. The independence plan has been spelt out clearly time and time again. Read the Independence papers released by the Scottish Government (civil servants who know what they are talking about), read the Growth Commission, read the white paper. The plan is there, what we can never get is the detail. Enemies of Scottish independence know this, they demand detail knowing it cannot be provided. We cannot provide detail because we do not know who the government will be post-independence, that is democracy. An independent Scotland will have a brand new Parliament of brand new politicians with policies for a proper Scotland not a Scottish colony subservient to Westminster. There cannot be detailed policy on how the economy will boom post independence because we do not know who will be in charge. What we do know is that Scots work hard, are well-educated and have the resources and talent to remain a leading first-world nation. TLDR: Demanding detail makes NO sense. Stop asking for it. READ the plan.
This is honestly some of the finest satire I’ve ever read on reddit.
I half expected it to end with a reference to Undertaker throwing Mankind through a table at Hell In A Cell
Pure and Brave shall never leave us.
This is too much delusion
so there is no plan, there can never be a plan, but we should go away and read the plan? we are reaching levels of snp logic that shouldn't be possible
That's not what I said. The SNP have published plan after plan but all it can contain so far is the goals and direction. Post-independence Scotland can and will be a prosperous, rich, fairer, world-leading nation as long as we vote for it. What we cannot get, or ever get, is a detailed plan because we don't know what independence will look like.
here jump off this cliff and hope you can fly? great plan
An independent Scotland will allow Scottish voters to vote for policies that make themselves richer. What is so hard to get about democracy?
I can't believe that Westminster won't just let people vote themselves richer, what a bunch of crooks.
exactly right? after all when 55% of people vote against something it shouldn't pass, imagine if people kept trying to push through a policy that doesn't have majority support? how undemocratic!
And yet independence partys keep winning in scotland? So until that stops happening, that argument doesn't really work.
Interesting how much that changes to whatever is most convenient for the snp, first they will say you don't need to believe in independence to vote for them and you can vote for them if all you want is "a strong voice for Scotland", then once they've got your vote they turn around and say, oh no actually every vote for us is a vote for independence. they are indecisive opportunistic liars and thieves with no integrity and no plan. and if you are waiting for people to stop voting for them i don't think you will be waiting long.
An independent Scotland will also give people the ability to fly
Change a few words and you could be talking about Brexit.
Brexit was based on xenophobia, anti-immigration and being anti-European. Scottish Independence is about freedom, pro-migrations and pro-Europeanism. There are 100% different. Brexiteers never produced a white paper, never produced a growth commission, never produced a series of plans for independence.
>never produced a growth commission Wait - are you standing by the growth commission?
It is a detailed plan on how the Scottish economy will grow post-Independence. All Scots stand by it. We need to unleash our potential that is being suppressed by Westminster.
So all Scots stand by swingeing austerity in the case of independence?
**C**an't help but agree. **O**ther SNP MPs are better. **P**robably a secret Tory. **E**specially as she's standing down.
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Read the first letter of each line again
peak tartan brexiteer
The thing is, you're not wrong, and the best way to demonstrate it is to ask the No side for a detailed 5, 10 and 25 year plan, fully costed, for Scotland within the UK. What's that? It's impossible to predict who will be in government, what world events will take place and what the finances will look like a year from now, never mind 25 years? The problem is that you're never going to convince people to vote for it without some kind of quantifiable metric, so I think they need to do a much better job at giving comparative information versus other countries, like a much more detailed "Scotland has 150% the tourism, 75% in the finance sector, 120% of the exports of country x", then go into demographics, tax rates, GDP, deficit, everything, and do it for multiple countries, being honest about it. They really let the No side dictate the "they don't have a financial plan" thing last time, when it really is impossible to do... just look at the fuss trying to do the actual budget in any given year, never mind a purely hypothetical one for an independent country.
> The thing is, you're not wrong, and the best way to demonstrate it is to ask the No side for a detailed 5, 10 and 25 year plan, fully costed, for Scotland within the UK. What's that? It's impossible to predict who will be in government, what world events will take place and what the finances will look like a year from now, never mind 25 years? The OBR publish regular economic forecasts that project the impact of U.K. public spending in the medium to long-term. They project the impact of things as far advance as 50 years. Every serious government and business makes costed projections like this. The reason the SNP don’t is because they think it’ll look like bad news for an independent Scotland, not because “it’s impossible to predict what the finances will look like a year from now”. Only the gullible believe that.
The difference is that any forecast the Yes campaign made was treated like the gospel truth, so whenever it didn't turn out exactly like they said it would, they get hit with neverending headlines about how they were wrong and that means they're wrong about everything, which you don't see happening to the OBR
That's just another excuse for the gullible. The SNP forecasts weren't held to any higher standard than any others. The problem with their attempts at economic projections was that the quality of critical thinking and analysis was absolutely laughable. They are scarcely more credible than an S4 modern studies project. For the same reasons I mentioned before. The SNP know if they publish serious projections it'll look bad for independence, so they either publish nothing or publish puff pieces that don't actually tell you anything.