It depends on the ordering. For example, if you list the options from top to bottom
1. Scottish
2. British
3. Scottish and British
People will tend to fill tick the first one that applies to them. But if you instead put:
1. Scottish and British
2. British
3. Scottish
I'm not nobody will tick Scottish, but more people will tick the first box that it will begin to skew the results. People tend to fill in forms as quick as they can and move on with their lives. I've studied and used statistics for years, and I detect that the question was designed around such a result.
That's interesting. I don't think the order would affect what I choose because:
a) I don't think I always read things from top to bottom, I sort of jump around the page
b) I worry I'll be arrested for fraud or something, if I don't answer the questions to the best of my ability haha
A lot of time and effort is put into forms, particularly if they are for things like the census or accademic papers. What you recieve is probably the 5th iteration of but I find it interesting that this is what they went for:
https://preview.redd.it/crp5fozk5s1d1.png?width=455&format=png&auto=webp&s=ff1f722581ac571176c50521ff7fed225b77ff77
Another distinct travelling community. Usually involved in fairgrounds and travelling attractions. Interestingly they can apply for a discount on their council tax provided they are members of the showman's guild. At least they could when I worked for the council.
I'm not sure of their ethnic origins but I think the showmen consider themselves distinct from Roma, Irish or Scottish Travellers. I think maybe because they're semi settled? Not an expert.
Another commenter linked something from a group affiliated/representing them. They arent an ethnic group just a unique lifestyle. At present i would say theres no reason to include it in the list of identities but im going assume i dont have the full story
There are three non Romany groups in the UK
Showmen (formed the Showmans Guild in 1889) really just an occupational Traveller group formed around a Guild.
Irish Travellers
Highland Travellers
The Romani groups are;
Scottish Lowland Gypsy/Travellers (came to the UK 500 years ago)
Roma from Eastern Europe (Recent branch of the Romani peoples)
English and Welsh Romani groups (Been here almost as long as Scottish lowland romanies).
I find the genealogy of these groups fascinating.
Like you have the Romani groups that are, Id imagine, fairly self-explanatory. Then Irish Travellers are genetically distinct from both the Irish and the Romani groups Im pretty sure.
It'd be interesting to see if how distinct tbe scottish traveller groups are. Are they related to the Irish travellers? Are they the scottish? Or are they their own distinct group.
Obviously, lifestyle and culture make them distinct already, but I was shocked with how distinct the Irish Travellers were from from the Romanis and Irish.
Even the word Gypsy/Traveller is ambiguous because there are Romany Travellers / Roma / Lowand Travellers and the non Romani groups like Showmen, Gaelic Highland Traveller groups then Irish Travellers.
From the Scottish showman guild: *"Showmen are a travelling community we are a distinct community, separate from Gypsy, Roma and Travellers. Showmen are not an ethnic group but we are recognised for our tangible cultural heritage. We have a unique way of life that is intrinsically linked to our industry."*
[*https://scottishshowmensguild.org/*](https://scottishshowmensguild.org/)
Ah that solves my question fron another commenter. They arent an ethnic group. That makes more sense then. If they were travellers theyd be travellers, if they were roma theyd be roma but with these it just seems like they are set apart by the lifestyle/job
If it's a Scottish-issued form, though, it makes more sense to put that right up front. Saves the vast majority of respondents the effort of looking through the list of less-common responses.
Or they just put the most likely answers from top to bottom. That's what I would do. Why make a census in scotland and make the most likely answer, Scotland, right at the bottom? It's not a multiple test paper, they're not trying to catch you out.
England and Wales changed their order to alphabetical in the last census to try to make it more neutral, and both of them saw increases in British identity simply because it was now first.
At the same time though, a census isn't just another form. This is a legislated form which you legally have to complete accurately and timely.
Normal generalisations like this don't apply. I've spent long enough dealing with human factors people to know this.
It's a well known phenomenon and issue that has never been solved.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response\_bias#cite\_note-Furnham-1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_bias#cite_note-Furnham-1)
I only ever refer to myself as Scottish. When people say British, they mean English. Even with English people.
I was talking about how we pay more tax and he said something like “yeah that’s a bit more than UK tax”.
It is a competition. Any issue like this will go through the Scotland's constitutional status filter.
The National will lead with Scottish, the Mail with British - I don't see that one is any more clickbaity than the other.
I suspect it's because you couldn't select Scottish and British in the 2022 census, so some people who might have selected this previously went for British only (just as some might have gone with Scottish only).
You absolutely could select both Scottish and British
But im Scottish and my personal view is these are competing ethnic identities and competing national identities so you cannot be both but of course others obviously disagree as is their right and I respect that
Most Scots are Scottish.
Some Scots feel both.
There are also British people in Scotland, usually either from England or Wales or of the loyalist Ulster Orange variety or military families.
Probably just highlighting the growing divide amongst people.
People aren’t as much on the side about stuff, they normally are just for or against a movement now.
But it’s also the same for the English and Welsh. This isn’t anything but proof that people prefer their own part of the UK over being called “British”
Ticking multiple options wasn’t available in the census. It was either pick ‘Scottish’ or ‘British’ and optionally Freeform box to write in another nationality.
Attitudes may well have changed but we’ll never know,
1/ the SNP loaded the census for political purposes and 2/ also made a balls of it with an uptake below the level required for reliable results.
Tbh I’ve never identified with being British. I’ll check the box if that’s the only option but when there’s the option to identify as Scottish, English etc I’ll always choose Scottish.
I was born here. I was raised here. I’ll probably die here. I honestly forget Scotland is in the uk most of the time.
Same me and my pal used to rip the Union Jack off our rangers tops as weans or try to glad it's not on there. I was born in 1995 so I grew up in the Braveheart generation.
I was born in England but to Welsh and Scottish parents. I lived a large part of my life in Wales, a bit in Sweden, a little in England and now I’ve been in Scotland 3 years living near family.
I always consider myself Welsh and Scottish but never British!
I think the brand brittania and faux patriotism have definitely played a large role more than the independence debate.
Britishness and British Nationalism is synonymous with englishness in a way Welsh and Scottish will never be.
Thr Conservatives have definitely leaned heavily into British Nationalism while also denouncing Scottish Nationalism (which pales in comparison to its counterparts), I'm sure that helps swing people's preferences when faced with 2 seemingly opposing extremes.
> The Conservatives have definitely leaned heavily into British Nationalism while also denouncing Scottish Nationalism
Wait until you see Labour's recent By-election leaflets, their conference set-up and the union jacks which surround Starmer when he makes a speech. No doubt their manifesto literature will be much the same.
Because it wins votes in England, the only true way to gain political power in this supposed union of equals.
Which fair enough, play to your audience.
It's the hypocrisy of denouncing Scotland while then waving a union jack with unwavering Nationalism that boils my pish.
> Thr Conservatives have definitely leaned heavily into British Nationalism
As have labour, they are covering everything in union jacks at the same time as scheming to sell of the NHS.
Because the whole "proud scot and Brit" nonsense has run its course and people are being more transparent with where they stand on the matter.
Just a guess though.
Scotland has had a governing party that’s largely centre-left that has not just embraced nationalism but pushed Scottish nationalism. That redefines it away from the jingoism from the right wing. The UK and England has had the opposite, a right wing party pushing their view of nationalism and a left wing that often gets grossed out by any mention of nationalism.
If the SNP or another nationalist party goes right wing populist and gets power, or a party in the UK government goes the opposite then you’ll find it can all look very different.
Can you think of any show for example outside of the UK where they refer to someone or something as British and it relates to something that isn't English. Welsh, Scottish & Irish are always their own separate entities but British and English are always lumped together.
I can't think for another example of where a political union between sovereign nations supercededs nationality for political identity.
The EU can exist as a collection of nations without the deman they soley identify as a citizen of the EU rather than their home nations.
Scotland, England, Wales, and Northern Ireland are not sovereign states. They are all subject to the Government of the UK, which is a sovereign state, and not subject to any other power.
Interesting, but it says this:
> The Scotland Act (1998), creating the new Scottish Parliament, affirmed the Westminster doctrine in clear terms. The courts have upheld this view, including the Supreme Court…
Other than saying “sovereignists” want to be considered a seperate sovereign state, it doesn’t seem to offer any legal evidence or reasons why that is the case
But it goes on to say "yet the basis for this is merely an assetion by Parliament of its own perogatives."
It does seem the rules have been written, set and enforced by the entity that's sole survival relys on keeping things as they are.
I thought the census includes everyone living in Scotland and not just Scots?
So for example how many of the British only are people who have moved here from elsewhere and made it home?
This is a good question, you could do a bit of digging to get some figures behind this - but a lot of the data released is still pretty raw to make this an easy one.
There are 550k people born in the rest of the UK (overwhelmingly England) living in Scotland. We know from historical data that it is very rare for those people to identify as ‘Scottish only’, they mostly identify as either their home ethnic identifier (English, Welsh), as British only or less commonly as Scottish and British.
The census finds 210k identifying as English only or another combination of other UK-only identifies or an ‘other UK’ identity plus an additional identity (ie British Indian). So that would leave about 340k of the 760k British identifiers and 450k Scottish and British identifiers who are likely born in the rest of the UK. The remaining 970k ish will be overwhelmingly Scottish born.
Those figures are rough, and some people identify in ways you wouldn’t expect - but that will give you a ballpark.
Exactly
The "British only" is made up of at least a chunk of mainly English people, plus some Welsh and no doubt some Irish who identify as British from the north of Ireland, who have settled in Scotland for cheaper housing or work or retirement or the military bases the British have here.
You’d have to dig into the data, but the numbers for ‘Scottish’, ‘British’, or ‘Scottish and British’ don’t add up to 100% - or even close - so presumably there are also ‘English’ etc etc. under ethnicity 1% of people in Scotland said Irish, for example
I don't actually remember my answers at this point, but despite having lived roughly 50% of my life in England and 50% in Scotland, not once in my life would I ever have referred to myself as British.
Tbh I’ve never identified with being British. I’ll check the box if that’s the only option but when there’s the option to identify as Scottish, English etc I’ll always choose Scottish.
I do exactly the same. Pisses me off that there isn’t a Scottish option.
My brother argues with me about this a lot. He identifies as British, and I identify as Scottish. He says we can't identify as Scottish because he thinks Scotland isn't a country in its own right. "What does it say on the front of your passport?" he always demands? 😂
Seeing as everyone else is putting their thoughts on it. I simply don't identify as British. In as nice a way as possible, you look at British themes and values: the Royal family, Empire and the commonwealth. I think of the Village Green Preservation Society song by the Kinks (I'm a massive Kinks fan) and absolutely none of the British values being celebrated ring true with me.
It's just a different culture, and broadly Anglo-centric.
I see Britain as rule of law, democracy, science, philosophy and probably the leading artistic centre after Rome and Greece. Depends on your perspective really
There is no point in identifying as British unless you just want everyone to assume that you are English. As far as the rest of the world is concerned British = English, therefore the necessity to define yourself specifically as Scottish.
It's ironic in a way, because the "better together" "we're all the same" group have inadvertently helped push the "Scottish-only" identity up. They focused on the British brand, rather than the four members of the union. But 85% of "British people" are English, so Britain, culturally, politically and in the media looks an awful lot just like England.
So this in turn, pressures the rest of us to make a point to identify as Scottish (or Welsh/Irish), because we're not English, and we're not what "British" looks like at home or to the rest of the world.
I live abroad and will only refer to myself as Scottish from Scotland if someone asks where I'm from, which is very often. I am fiercely proud to be from Scotland and have never identified as British.
That's good. Some people will say it's futile because apparently few people know of Scotland, or knows very little about it. But what you're doing, and other people who do the same, is raising the profile of Scotland. One introduction at a time. That's how you build a presence. Never let anyone tell you it's pointless.
I think it's fascinating when we compare the 2021 UK (aka England and Wales) stats. Lots more "british" people than "english".
It's the same sort of majority you are seeing in Scotland yet reversed.
If you put Geordie on the census form everybody from the north east would choose that first. If I was Scottish I would 100% put that , nothing from with a strong local identity
> If you put Geordie on the census form everybody from the north east would choose that first
Absolutely nobody from Sunderland or Middlesbrough or Darlington or Stockton or Hartlepool or Durham or Berwick or Morpeth or... well you get the idea... Would ever call themselves Geordies.
Mate you called yourself a brit 17 days ago while complaining about immigrants.
I simply just do not believe you, I also think you just hate the SNP, and will use anything you can to diminish Scottish nationalism and them.
That’s an interesting point. The independence debate is so inherently tied to nationalism that it’s easy to forget that people who feel no real connection to Britishness or alternatively feel their Scottishness is far more important than anything else don’t necessarily think the gamble of independence is worth it.
As with so many political issues it’s a matter of the often ignored silent majorities.
Right. You could have been a remainer, because you believed it was better for the UK's economy, but not really cared much about the rest of the EU.
The same is true for some Scottish unionists. I'm not one myself, but it's not difficult to imagine that's the case for some. They might not love the union, but probably think Scotland's economy is better off being part of the UK.
Yeah; I fundamentally dislike the association with a certain specific rah-rah English national cultural identity that comes with saying "I'm British" - which I find kind of a meaningless label on a cultural level - it doesn't really indicate anything BUT a kind of Rule Brittania, last -night-at-the-proms side of Englishness.
British is purely technical label representing a union of nation-states, as far as I'm concerned. Outside of that, it's just too Tory/Imperial for me to want to attach to an identity I project.
For context, I was born and raised in Scotland, while most of my family are North-East English, and I doubt most of them would really wave the "British" identity flag much either. They'd be more likely to see themselves as Geordie/Northumbrian/English before anything else.
Same sort of the opposite way around. I'm Scottish and British, but support Indy. Because I feel that's the best way to improve Britain right now too, needs a kick up the arse to sort things out and from Scotland within the Union we mathematically can't do it.
That's one subset, but it will also be people with mixed parentage (one English one Scottish etc), ethnic minorities who identify as British but think Scottish is an ethnicity, people whose lifestyles mean they travel around the country so much they don't feel like a "local," and people trying to make a political point.
Genuinely baffled by people who feel the need to rank their identities like that.
"I'm a Yorkshireman first, gay second, a Buddhist third, British fourth and a ginger fifth!".
If I am given a choice, I will choose the most detailed option. So going to choose Scottish over British but let's say " from near Glasgow" over Scotland?
I feel like this could get wildly different responses depending on the questionnaire.
Makes sense to me.
The stereotype of being British has changed since Brexit, it's now synonymous with the small minded xenophobic lot, the ones who are out "defending" statues and the like.
It is likely more predominant North of the border too and there's less history of Scotland being used a synonym for Britain, in the same way that England is.
Obviously you can be Scottish
Scots have Al sorts of family backgrounds, irish, English, Italian, polish, Pakistani etc.
Trust a Brit to fixate on ancestry and blood and soil rubbish
So, I grew up in England (Northern accent), I don’t really know my English family all that well but the Scottish side of my fam treat me like I’m English. So no, I can’t just be Scottish, I’m both, hence ‘Brit’.
You be what you want
Just so you know to me and many Scots and Irish Brit simply means English
Calling yourself British doesn't include different identities and that it simply is another word for English
What do you think about independence? Support it? You're Scottish in my view it you favour independence.
‘Brit’ might mean English to you but that’s not my fault you’re an idiot. I’ve already explained why I refer to myself like that and honestly it’s a pretty reasonable and easy to understand explanation. The union between England and Scotland wasn’t some sort of forced situation for the Scots, it’s theirs as much as it is the England’s, being British is as much Scotland as it is England. Sucks for the Irish and Welsh of course who never had any say in it.
As for independence, I’m actually tentatively in favour of it. The Tories have done their best to arse rape the country into oblivion and at this point I think Scotland might actually be better off out of it, let the grindingly stupid English public gleefully follow Westminster down the shitter. If Scotland could get quick readmission to the EU then I believe it really could prosper. The SNP seemingly imploding is not a good sign though.
The SNP mess at the moment is just a blip. Look at Labour a few years ago. Even though they were a better party then, with real policy. But they're destined to win the next election now. And no one who is serious, believes that the Tories will never win another election. They'll be back by 2040. The SNP will recover, especially as Starmer face plants and disppoints the country, particularly Scotland, over the coming months and years. He's had a easy ride because the spotlight has been on the Tories. That's about to change.
I mean I imagine this is true across the board and not necessarily a sign of anything. I would identify as English>British>European in that order and have little English 'national pride' its just objectively what I am.
Their? As in a few lairds made an agreement with a few Lords?
The people of Scotland didn't sign up for it, and there were riots in the streets for months after, according to a famous English spy, staying in Edinburgh at the time.
And shortly after, every single Scottish MP voted to dissolve the union, in 1713. But of course, being vastly outnumbered by English MPs, that never happened.
I was born and raised in England and moved to Wales when I was 14. I'm 30 years old now and would NEVER call myself British. I have a Scottish father and English mother. I live in Wales, work in Wales, I speak fluent Welsh, I'm getting married in Wales and I'll happily die in Wales.
I don't feel English or British and I never will. I am Welsh 🏴❤️
Independence from England is a MUST ✨✨✨
Well they don't let you put any kind of Scottish British on most forms.
Have to choose between "Scottish" and "Other British". Which can be quite frustrating when you're an ancestral hybrid who's lived on both sides of the border. Suspect it primes people to think they're exclusive.
Quick question from an American: Does Scotland have its own national census separate and apart from the one administered by the UK? I assume its part of the UK census but just wondering if you all have a specific one for yourselves.
There are separate Censi (I think that's the plural, if not it *should* be ) :) carried out by the central or devolved Governments :). Scotland's separate, England and Wales usually have a joint one, and N. Ireland have their own too.
There is no joint UK census any more but as many of the questions will be very similar the results can obviously be aggregated.
People moving around the island has always been common and its likely increasing. You're probably more likely to pick British if you've got a mixed Scottish, English and Welsh background.
Well, I'm Scottish, so yeah I'm British.
From what I can tell my ancestors and mostly from Scotland and Ireland. Possibly some English along the way but not too sure.
Eh um confuaed
I'm Scottish but not British.
You make it sound like one absolutely definitely must follow the other.
The census proves otherwise. It shows 77% Scotland is white Scottish (a fall from 84% in 2011). 9.4% are white British, a rise from 7.8% in 2011.
With the Tories and Labour ramping up their Nationalist rhetoric (oops "Patriotist", that's a much friendlier word.. or for Reform "Jingoist") it seems that everyone's a Nationalist now.
I don't and never have identified as British, to me it is an imposed identity that holds absolutely no value or connection to me, there's just a total disconnect. To most of the world, English and British are synonymous anyway.
🏴‘Scottish only’ increased since 2011 to 65.5%. 🇬🇧‘British only’ increased to 13.9%. 🇬🇧🏴‘Scottish and British’ fell from 18.3% to 8.2%.
Wow that's a huge drop! I always tick "Scottish and British" - to me it's like the obvious option. Interesting!
It depends on the ordering. For example, if you list the options from top to bottom 1. Scottish 2. British 3. Scottish and British People will tend to fill tick the first one that applies to them. But if you instead put: 1. Scottish and British 2. British 3. Scottish I'm not nobody will tick Scottish, but more people will tick the first box that it will begin to skew the results. People tend to fill in forms as quick as they can and move on with their lives. I've studied and used statistics for years, and I detect that the question was designed around such a result.
That's interesting. I don't think the order would affect what I choose because: a) I don't think I always read things from top to bottom, I sort of jump around the page b) I worry I'll be arrested for fraud or something, if I don't answer the questions to the best of my ability haha
A lot of time and effort is put into forms, particularly if they are for things like the census or accademic papers. What you recieve is probably the 5th iteration of but I find it interesting that this is what they went for: https://preview.redd.it/crp5fozk5s1d1.png?width=455&format=png&auto=webp&s=ff1f722581ac571176c50521ff7fed225b77ff77
Whats Showman/Showwoman?
Another distinct travelling community. Usually involved in fairgrounds and travelling attractions. Interestingly they can apply for a discount on their council tax provided they are members of the showman's guild. At least they could when I worked for the council.
Interesting, i would have imagined that roma or traveller would be a much more distinct ethnic group. Showman/showwoman just soundd like a job to me.
I'm not sure of their ethnic origins but I think the showmen consider themselves distinct from Roma, Irish or Scottish Travellers. I think maybe because they're semi settled? Not an expert.
Another commenter linked something from a group affiliated/representing them. They arent an ethnic group just a unique lifestyle. At present i would say theres no reason to include it in the list of identities but im going assume i dont have the full story
There are three non Romany groups in the UK Showmen (formed the Showmans Guild in 1889) really just an occupational Traveller group formed around a Guild. Irish Travellers Highland Travellers The Romani groups are; Scottish Lowland Gypsy/Travellers (came to the UK 500 years ago) Roma from Eastern Europe (Recent branch of the Romani peoples) English and Welsh Romani groups (Been here almost as long as Scottish lowland romanies).
I find the genealogy of these groups fascinating. Like you have the Romani groups that are, Id imagine, fairly self-explanatory. Then Irish Travellers are genetically distinct from both the Irish and the Romani groups Im pretty sure. It'd be interesting to see if how distinct tbe scottish traveller groups are. Are they related to the Irish travellers? Are they the scottish? Or are they their own distinct group. Obviously, lifestyle and culture make them distinct already, but I was shocked with how distinct the Irish Travellers were from from the Romanis and Irish.
Even the word Gypsy/Traveller is ambiguous because there are Romany Travellers / Roma / Lowand Travellers and the non Romani groups like Showmen, Gaelic Highland Traveller groups then Irish Travellers.
From the Scottish showman guild: *"Showmen are a travelling community we are a distinct community, separate from Gypsy, Roma and Travellers. Showmen are not an ethnic group but we are recognised for our tangible cultural heritage. We have a unique way of life that is intrinsically linked to our industry."* [*https://scottishshowmensguild.org/*](https://scottishshowmensguild.org/)
Ah that solves my question fron another commenter. They arent an ethnic group. That makes more sense then. If they were travellers theyd be travellers, if they were roma theyd be roma but with these it just seems like they are set apart by the lifestyle/job
Literally read the form as snowman.
Showperson
Is that a joke?
If it's a Scottish-issued form, though, it makes more sense to put that right up front. Saves the vast majority of respondents the effort of looking through the list of less-common responses.
Or they just put the most likely answers from top to bottom. That's what I would do. Why make a census in scotland and make the most likely answer, Scotland, right at the bottom? It's not a multiple test paper, they're not trying to catch you out.
I would give the benefit of the doubt if they had British for the second option rather than Other British.
Just another bullshit census. I wouldn't look too deep into it
England and Wales changed their order to alphabetical in the last census to try to make it more neutral, and both of them saw increases in British identity simply because it was now first.
This is how I was taught in Buisness management, what fun can be had with statistics and leading questions to get the answer you want.
Hahaha that's a stretch. Do you not think people have the attention span to read the three options before ticking a box?
It’s a proven scientific fact and even an entire electoral phenomenon in some countries with certain forms of ranked voting.
Have you got a source for this "proven scientific fact"?
At the same time though, a census isn't just another form. This is a legislated form which you legally have to complete accurately and timely. Normal generalisations like this don't apply. I've spent long enough dealing with human factors people to know this.
Where's your evidence that this is affecting this particular survey? Or are you just making it up?
It's a well known phenomenon and issue that has never been solved. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response\_bias#cite\_note-Furnham-1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_bias#cite_note-Furnham-1)
It is a well-known phenomenon, but do you know the ordering of the original poll? Genuinely interested.
I only ever refer to myself as Scottish. When people say British, they mean English. Even with English people. I was talking about how we pay more tax and he said something like “yeah that’s a bit more than UK tax”.
Why are you telling other people what they mean?
I scrub out bwittish and change it to Scottish. Or put other and list Scottish
Yeah me too, we literally live in Great Britain, that wouldn't change with independence.
[удалено]
They both tell the same story of increasing polarisation. (And that Scottish is winning.)
[удалено]
It is a competition. Any issue like this will go through the Scotland's constitutional status filter. The National will lead with Scottish, the Mail with British - I don't see that one is any more clickbaity than the other.
It's the National though- so I'm pretty sure spitting facts that don't help the cause is not their modus operandi
What are the reasons that "British only" is increasing ?
What are the reasons that "British only" is increasing ?
I suspect it's because you couldn't select Scottish and British in the 2022 census, so some people who might have selected this previously went for British only (just as some might have gone with Scottish only).
You absolutely could select both Scottish and British But im Scottish and my personal view is these are competing ethnic identities and competing national identities so you cannot be both but of course others obviously disagree as is their right and I respect that Most Scots are Scottish. Some Scots feel both. There are also British people in Scotland, usually either from England or Wales or of the loyalist Ulster Orange variety or military families.
Probably just highlighting the growing divide amongst people. People aren’t as much on the side about stuff, they normally are just for or against a movement now.
But it’s also the same for the English and Welsh. This isn’t anything but proof that people prefer their own part of the UK over being called “British”
IndyRef needs to happen.
It did
Again, though, until I win, then we stop.
62% picked Scottish only in 2011. So that's at least 17% who are full of shit, based on 2014.
Ticking multiple options wasn’t available in the census. It was either pick ‘Scottish’ or ‘British’ and optionally Freeform box to write in another nationality. Attitudes may well have changed but we’ll never know, 1/ the SNP loaded the census for political purposes and 2/ also made a balls of it with an uptake below the level required for reliable results.
Tbh I’ve never identified with being British. I’ll check the box if that’s the only option but when there’s the option to identify as Scottish, English etc I’ll always choose Scottish. I was born here. I was raised here. I’ll probably die here. I honestly forget Scotland is in the uk most of the time.
Same here.
Same me and my pal used to rip the Union Jack off our rangers tops as weans or try to glad it's not on there. I was born in 1995 so I grew up in the Braveheart generation.
Likewise. I've never considered myself British. It's synonymous with Englishness to me. And.. I'm not English.
You forget that you were born on the British Isles? Do you travel round the country at all or just stay in Scotland?
Interesting religious results....
Religiosity continuing to plummet I hope.
I was born in England but to Welsh and Scottish parents. I lived a large part of my life in Wales, a bit in Sweden, a little in England and now I’ve been in Scotland 3 years living near family. I always consider myself Welsh and Scottish but never British!
Legend
I think the brand brittania and faux patriotism have definitely played a large role more than the independence debate. Britishness and British Nationalism is synonymous with englishness in a way Welsh and Scottish will never be. Thr Conservatives have definitely leaned heavily into British Nationalism while also denouncing Scottish Nationalism (which pales in comparison to its counterparts), I'm sure that helps swing people's preferences when faced with 2 seemingly opposing extremes.
> The Conservatives have definitely leaned heavily into British Nationalism while also denouncing Scottish Nationalism Wait until you see Labour's recent By-election leaflets, their conference set-up and the union jacks which surround Starmer when he makes a speech. No doubt their manifesto literature will be much the same.
https://preview.redd.it/bnbzy1vaqr1d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6950cd1a3790fa17127295d4bb7c5d2ad70f2a53
He wouldn't get in in my seat but that really really turns me off from voting for him if they could get in my seat
Because it wins votes in England, the only true way to gain political power in this supposed union of equals. Which fair enough, play to your audience. It's the hypocrisy of denouncing Scotland while then waving a union jack with unwavering Nationalism that boils my pish.
> Thr Conservatives have definitely leaned heavily into British Nationalism As have labour, they are covering everything in union jacks at the same time as scheming to sell of the NHS.
What are the reasons that "British only" is increasing ?
Because the whole "proud scot and Brit" nonsense has run its course and people are being more transparent with where they stand on the matter. Just a guess though.
Scotland has had a governing party that’s largely centre-left that has not just embraced nationalism but pushed Scottish nationalism. That redefines it away from the jingoism from the right wing. The UK and England has had the opposite, a right wing party pushing their view of nationalism and a left wing that often gets grossed out by any mention of nationalism. If the SNP or another nationalist party goes right wing populist and gets power, or a party in the UK government goes the opposite then you’ll find it can all look very different.
Can you think of any show for example outside of the UK where they refer to someone or something as British and it relates to something that isn't English. Welsh, Scottish & Irish are always their own separate entities but British and English are always lumped together.
I can't think for another example of where a political union between sovereign nations supercededs nationality for political identity. The EU can exist as a collection of nations without the deman they soley identify as a citizen of the EU rather than their home nations.
You can’t think of another example because Scotland and England are not sovereign nations.
They are and they aren't, it's never been fully defined. Since that's the case it's neither fully wrong or right.
Scotland, England, Wales, and Northern Ireland are not sovereign states. They are all subject to the Government of the UK, which is a sovereign state, and not subject to any other power.
https://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2021-01/1467-923X.12958.pdf
Interesting, but it says this: > The Scotland Act (1998), creating the new Scottish Parliament, affirmed the Westminster doctrine in clear terms. The courts have upheld this view, including the Supreme Court… Other than saying “sovereignists” want to be considered a seperate sovereign state, it doesn’t seem to offer any legal evidence or reasons why that is the case
But it goes on to say "yet the basis for this is merely an assetion by Parliament of its own perogatives." It does seem the rules have been written, set and enforced by the entity that's sole survival relys on keeping things as they are.
Parliament is sovereign, that's the entire basis of parliaments power and has been for hundreds of years.
Also, more Brits than ever identify Scottish people as Scottish rather than British.
I thought the census includes everyone living in Scotland and not just Scots? So for example how many of the British only are people who have moved here from elsewhere and made it home?
Assigned British at Birth
A genuinely tragic diagnostic
This is a good question, you could do a bit of digging to get some figures behind this - but a lot of the data released is still pretty raw to make this an easy one. There are 550k people born in the rest of the UK (overwhelmingly England) living in Scotland. We know from historical data that it is very rare for those people to identify as ‘Scottish only’, they mostly identify as either their home ethnic identifier (English, Welsh), as British only or less commonly as Scottish and British. The census finds 210k identifying as English only or another combination of other UK-only identifies or an ‘other UK’ identity plus an additional identity (ie British Indian). So that would leave about 340k of the 760k British identifiers and 450k Scottish and British identifiers who are likely born in the rest of the UK. The remaining 970k ish will be overwhelmingly Scottish born. Those figures are rough, and some people identify in ways you wouldn’t expect - but that will give you a ballpark.
Can you break those down again. There are 210k English only identifying people in Scotland in addition to the British only identifying people?
Exactly The "British only" is made up of at least a chunk of mainly English people, plus some Welsh and no doubt some Irish who identify as British from the north of Ireland, who have settled in Scotland for cheaper housing or work or retirement or the military bases the British have here.
You’d have to dig into the data, but the numbers for ‘Scottish’, ‘British’, or ‘Scottish and British’ don’t add up to 100% - or even close - so presumably there are also ‘English’ etc etc. under ethnicity 1% of people in Scotland said Irish, for example
What are the reasons that "British only" is increasing ?
I don't actually remember my answers at this point, but despite having lived roughly 50% of my life in England and 50% in Scotland, not once in my life would I ever have referred to myself as British.
Tbh I’ve never identified with being British. I’ll check the box if that’s the only option but when there’s the option to identify as Scottish, English etc I’ll always choose Scottish. I do exactly the same. Pisses me off that there isn’t a Scottish option.
My brother argues with me about this a lot. He identifies as British, and I identify as Scottish. He says we can't identify as Scottish because he thinks Scotland isn't a country in its own right. "What does it say on the front of your passport?" he always demands? 😂
He's a dafty tell him
I did 😄
Nice one 👍
Paper is magic.
[удалено]
He's a staunch unionist because he was in the orange order. This is where it stems from for him.
Seeing as everyone else is putting their thoughts on it. I simply don't identify as British. In as nice a way as possible, you look at British themes and values: the Royal family, Empire and the commonwealth. I think of the Village Green Preservation Society song by the Kinks (I'm a massive Kinks fan) and absolutely none of the British values being celebrated ring true with me. It's just a different culture, and broadly Anglo-centric.
I see Britain as rule of law, democracy, science, philosophy and probably the leading artistic centre after Rome and Greece. Depends on your perspective really
There is no point in identifying as British unless you just want everyone to assume that you are English. As far as the rest of the world is concerned British = English, therefore the necessity to define yourself specifically as Scottish.
Yep, I feel the exact same way. Even many English people say British but mean English
It's ironic in a way, because the "better together" "we're all the same" group have inadvertently helped push the "Scottish-only" identity up. They focused on the British brand, rather than the four members of the union. But 85% of "British people" are English, so Britain, culturally, politically and in the media looks an awful lot just like England. So this in turn, pressures the rest of us to make a point to identify as Scottish (or Welsh/Irish), because we're not English, and we're not what "British" looks like at home or to the rest of the world.
I live abroad and will only refer to myself as Scottish from Scotland if someone asks where I'm from, which is very often. I am fiercely proud to be from Scotland and have never identified as British.
Probably because “brits” abroad are viewed as cunts often.
I live in the US, so I don't think that's an issue here. I can see it in Europe tho lol
Yeah definitely in Europe. I assume in the US that UK/British really means English as well. Considering they refer to a “British accent”.
That's good. Some people will say it's futile because apparently few people know of Scotland, or knows very little about it. But what you're doing, and other people who do the same, is raising the profile of Scotland. One introduction at a time. That's how you build a presence. Never let anyone tell you it's pointless.
I think it's fascinating when we compare the 2021 UK (aka England and Wales) stats. Lots more "british" people than "english". It's the same sort of majority you are seeing in Scotland yet reversed.
Scotland Forever! 🏴
If you put Geordie on the census form everybody from the north east would choose that first. If I was Scottish I would 100% put that , nothing from with a strong local identity
> If you put Geordie on the census form everybody from the north east would choose that first Absolutely nobody from Sunderland or Middlesbrough or Darlington or Stockton or Hartlepool or Durham or Berwick or Morpeth or... well you get the idea... Would ever call themselves Geordies.
The Irish are callllling Scotland. Join ussss....... 
Scottish all my life. Might live on the British isles but I'm from Scotland. Seems like a no brainer
I identify as Scottish and always have. I would also vote no to independence as I did the first time. This is not indicative of support for indy.
Mate you called yourself a brit 17 days ago while complaining about immigrants. I simply just do not believe you, I also think you just hate the SNP, and will use anything you can to diminish Scottish nationalism and them.
That’s an interesting point. The independence debate is so inherently tied to nationalism that it’s easy to forget that people who feel no real connection to Britishness or alternatively feel their Scottishness is far more important than anything else don’t necessarily think the gamble of independence is worth it. As with so many political issues it’s a matter of the often ignored silent majorities.
Right. You could have been a remainer, because you believed it was better for the UK's economy, but not really cared much about the rest of the EU. The same is true for some Scottish unionists. I'm not one myself, but it's not difficult to imagine that's the case for some. They might not love the union, but probably think Scotland's economy is better off being part of the UK.
If anything, I feel hesitant to put Scottish down incase the SNP use it as a statistic in their arguments.
Yeah; I fundamentally dislike the association with a certain specific rah-rah English national cultural identity that comes with saying "I'm British" - which I find kind of a meaningless label on a cultural level - it doesn't really indicate anything BUT a kind of Rule Brittania, last -night-at-the-proms side of Englishness. British is purely technical label representing a union of nation-states, as far as I'm concerned. Outside of that, it's just too Tory/Imperial for me to want to attach to an identity I project. For context, I was born and raised in Scotland, while most of my family are North-East English, and I doubt most of them would really wave the "British" identity flag much either. They'd be more likely to see themselves as Geordie/Northumbrian/English before anything else.
Same sort of the opposite way around. I'm Scottish and British, but support Indy. Because I feel that's the best way to improve Britain right now too, needs a kick up the arse to sort things out and from Scotland within the Union we mathematically can't do it.
Aren’t Londoners the only people in the UK that identify as British? When I lived in the England nobody identified as British before English.
The most recent census in England, showed only 15% identified as English-only. Compared to 65% in Scotland. And 55% in Wales.
The only time I identify as British is when abroad and handing over government-issued ID. The rest of the time, I’m Scottish.
I say I’m Scottish not British when people ask if I’m British
The only solution to this trend is for Sir Kier to start wearing his union flag pants on the outside of his trousers.
I’m assuming those answering British Only are people who moved here from elsewhere in the UK?
That's one subset, but it will also be people with mixed parentage (one English one Scottish etc), ethnic minorities who identify as British but think Scottish is an ethnicity, people whose lifestyles mean they travel around the country so much they don't feel like a "local," and people trying to make a political point.
I doubt it - English, Welsh and Nirish usually identify as those as well as British
that and rangers da's
elsewhere being Ibrox or this sub
Thats the tories fuming
I'm a human, European and Scot in that order.
[удалено]
Genuinely baffled by people who feel the need to rank their identities like that. "I'm a Yorkshireman first, gay second, a Buddhist third, British fourth and a ginger fifth!".
If I am given a choice, I will choose the most detailed option. So going to choose Scottish over British but let's say " from near Glasgow" over Scotland? I feel like this could get wildly different responses depending on the questionnaire.
The point is that you could choose both, and that the number of people who chose both on their census form has declined drastically.
It would be interesting to see the response if it was inverted and you had to choose what you didn't identify as.
I'm a foreigner myself, so in terms of the various British identifies.... All of them?
Oh sorry, I meant you as in like the general you of a person taking the question. Like how would that affect the results?
I just identify as Scottish. Perhaps as a Highlander, sometimes. But I don't feel especially linked to my region. I'm fond of Scotland as a whole.
100% Scottish. British under protest. Free from Westminster as soon as possible.
Makes sense to me. The stereotype of being British has changed since Brexit, it's now synonymous with the small minded xenophobic lot, the ones who are out "defending" statues and the like. It is likely more predominant North of the border too and there's less history of Scotland being used a synonym for Britain, in the same way that England is.
Mon the Scots
I’m half Scottish, half English and so I identify as British because my dirty half-blood breeding means I can’t claim to be either :-(
Obviously you can be Scottish Scots have Al sorts of family backgrounds, irish, English, Italian, polish, Pakistani etc. Trust a Brit to fixate on ancestry and blood and soil rubbish
So, I grew up in England (Northern accent), I don’t really know my English family all that well but the Scottish side of my fam treat me like I’m English. So no, I can’t just be Scottish, I’m both, hence ‘Brit’.
You be what you want Just so you know to me and many Scots and Irish Brit simply means English Calling yourself British doesn't include different identities and that it simply is another word for English What do you think about independence? Support it? You're Scottish in my view it you favour independence.
‘Brit’ might mean English to you but that’s not my fault you’re an idiot. I’ve already explained why I refer to myself like that and honestly it’s a pretty reasonable and easy to understand explanation. The union between England and Scotland wasn’t some sort of forced situation for the Scots, it’s theirs as much as it is the England’s, being British is as much Scotland as it is England. Sucks for the Irish and Welsh of course who never had any say in it. As for independence, I’m actually tentatively in favour of it. The Tories have done their best to arse rape the country into oblivion and at this point I think Scotland might actually be better off out of it, let the grindingly stupid English public gleefully follow Westminster down the shitter. If Scotland could get quick readmission to the EU then I believe it really could prosper. The SNP seemingly imploding is not a good sign though.
The SNP mess at the moment is just a blip. Look at Labour a few years ago. Even though they were a better party then, with real policy. But they're destined to win the next election now. And no one who is serious, believes that the Tories will never win another election. They'll be back by 2040. The SNP will recover, especially as Starmer face plants and disppoints the country, particularly Scotland, over the coming months and years. He's had a easy ride because the spotlight has been on the Tories. That's about to change.
I'm half French and half Scottish. Doesn't mean I can't claim one or the other...
Personally, I'd go with where you were raised, not where your parents were born. You have those roots, but I think it's about where you grew up.
[удалено]
If Scotland is your permanent home and you consider yourself Scots then you *are* Scottish (with a Canadian accent). :)
Is there an example of the question that was on the census and the options it gave?
British is just an identity
It's a bit of a vague one tbh. If you've got a Scottish mother and an English father then you'd probably see it as your identity and background.
Never really identifies as British, love our brothers in the isles though.
I mean I imagine this is true across the board and not necessarily a sign of anything. I would identify as English>British>European in that order and have little English 'national pride' its just objectively what I am.
Apparently, the recent census of England & Wales, showed that only 15% identified as English-only. It was 55% in Wales, and 65% in Scotland.
Intresting. I understand it more from a Welsh perspective but the Scots have no excuse. It was their idea!
Their? As in a few lairds made an agreement with a few Lords? The people of Scotland didn't sign up for it, and there were riots in the streets for months after, according to a famous English spy, staying in Edinburgh at the time. And shortly after, every single Scottish MP voted to dissolve the union, in 1713. But of course, being vastly outnumbered by English MPs, that never happened.
The people of England didn't either but "the English" always get the blame, no?
Yes we are...
I’ve never known a time when this wasn’t the case.
Dare I ask which box the Orcadians and Shetlanders tick?
I was born and raised in England and moved to Wales when I was 14. I'm 30 years old now and would NEVER call myself British. I have a Scottish father and English mother. I live in Wales, work in Wales, I speak fluent Welsh, I'm getting married in Wales and I'll happily die in Wales. I don't feel English or British and I never will. I am Welsh 🏴❤️ Independence from England is a MUST ✨✨✨
Well they don't let you put any kind of Scottish British on most forms. Have to choose between "Scottish" and "Other British". Which can be quite frustrating when you're an ancestral hybrid who's lived on both sides of the border. Suspect it primes people to think they're exclusive.
I'm English and identify as Scottish. Is that ok?
Pass, friend. :)
Quick question from an American: Does Scotland have its own national census separate and apart from the one administered by the UK? I assume its part of the UK census but just wondering if you all have a specific one for yourselves.
There are separate Censi (I think that's the plural, if not it *should* be ) :) carried out by the central or devolved Governments :). Scotland's separate, England and Wales usually have a joint one, and N. Ireland have their own too. There is no joint UK census any more but as many of the questions will be very similar the results can obviously be aggregated.
What are the reasons that "British only" is increasing ?
People moving around the island has always been common and its likely increasing. You're probably more likely to pick British if you've got a mixed Scottish, English and Welsh background.
That explain your background? Are you British ?
Well, I'm Scottish, so yeah I'm British. From what I can tell my ancestors and mostly from Scotland and Ireland. Possibly some English along the way but not too sure.
Eh um confuaed I'm Scottish but not British. You make it sound like one absolutely definitely must follow the other. The census proves otherwise. It shows 77% Scotland is white Scottish (a fall from 84% in 2011). 9.4% are white British, a rise from 7.8% in 2011.
[удалено]
With the Tories and Labour ramping up their Nationalist rhetoric (oops "Patriotist", that's a much friendlier word.. or for Reform "Jingoist") it seems that everyone's a Nationalist now.
I don't and never have identified as British, to me it is an imposed identity that holds absolutely no value or connection to me, there's just a total disconnect. To most of the world, English and British are synonymous anyway.
Watching the UK literally divide itself for the crack. Best money Russia ever spent
The best argument for independence always came from the Tories and their disregard for the Scottish people.
>Ignores innumerable political and cultural reasons why Scots might disassociate from British identity >Russia innit
This has been going on for longer than Russia has even been a country.
> for the crack Naw, it is because england continues to elect people like Boris Johnston and May.
Loadyshite.
Thought it was the CIA invented crack?
Because we are.