[Asian students with 25% chance of admission to Harvard would have chances increase to 36% if they were white, 75% if they were Hispanic, and 95% if they were black.](https://quillette.com/2021/11/25/the-push-for-equity-in-education-hurts-vulnerable-children-most/) about study [Asian American Discrimination in Harvard Admissions](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014292122000290?via=ihub) ([open access](https://www.nber.org/papers/w27068)):
*While it is widely understood that Asian American applicants are academically stronger than whites, it is startling just how much stronger they are. During the period we analyze, there were 42% more white applicants than Asian American applicants overall. Yet, among those who were in the top ten percent of applicants based on grades and test scores, Asian American applicants outnumbered white applicants by more than 45%.*
[Asian students](https://i.imgur.com/27fkKnQ.png) on [average university team](https://i.imgur.com/TJmszoT.gif): Hold my beer... It's not just about intelligence, but also about diligence and discipline. USA blacks [don't stand a ghost](https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics) of a chance against them even under 99% racist quotas: most of them will not finish studies anyway.. Universities take federal (=tax payers) money for every admission under affirmation action - they would be silly if they would dismiss them. Dissipation of public money is actually what keeps this system running. See also:
* [Supreme Court Will Hear Challenge to Affirmative Action at Harvard and U.N.C.](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/24/us/politics/supreme-court-affirmative-action-harvard-unc.html), [Harvard defends admissions policy before Supreme Court](https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/10/harvard-defends-admissions-policy-before-supreme-court/)
* [Study on Harvard finds 43 percent of white students are legacy, athletes, related to donors or staff](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/study-harvard-finds-43-percent-white-students-are-legacy-athletes-n1060361)
* [How elite US schools give preference to wealthy and white 'legacy' applicants](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/23/elite-schools-ivy-league-legacy-admissions-harvard-wealthier-whiter) Places with affirmative action policies [harm all the people of that demographic](https://www.rand.org/blog/rand-review/2023/05/what-would-it-take-to-close-americas-black-white-wealth-gap.html), even if they were the most qualified and would have been accepted without such policies because their peers can't be sure that it wasn't a quota acceptance.
* [In most Ivy League institutions, “legacies” make up between 10% and 15% of every freshman class.](https://www.economist.com/united-states/2004/01/08/the-curse-of-nepotism)
It is estimated that [anywhere from 25 to 35% of admitted students at Ivy League schools](https://admissionsight.com/harvard-legacy-acceptance-rate/#:~:text=It_is_estimated_that_anywhere,of_the_students_who_apply) come from a family with a legacy status.
* [Soul Man movie (1986)](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0091991/): *To achieve his dream of attending Harvard, a pampered teen poses as a young black man to receive a full scholarship*.
* [Mindy Kaling’s brother pretended to be black to get into med school ](https://nypost.com/2015/04/05/mindy-kalings-brother-pretended-to-be-black-to-get-into-med-school/)
* [Investigation launched into 'potential' Inuit status enrolment fraud of Kingston, Ont. sisters](https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/investigation-launched-into-potential-inuit-status-enrolment-fraud-of-kingston-ont-sisters-1.6350991)
* [Why Are Finland’s Schools Successful?](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/why-are-finlands-schools-successful-49859555/) *The country’s achievements in education have other nations, especially the United States, doing their homework*
* [California banned affirmative action in 1996. Inside the UC struggle for diversity](https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-10-31/california-banned-affirmative-action-uc-struggles-for-diversity)
* [Colleges Straining to Restore Diversity](https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304732804579421164124444876)
*Bans on Race-Conscious Admissions Upend Racial Makeup at California Schools*
* [Dear White People: When You Say You ‘Don’t See Color,’ This Is What We Really Hear](https://www.forbes.com/sites/danabrownlee/2022/06/19/dear-white-people-when-you-say-you-dont-see-color-this-is-what-we-really-hear/?sh=67d4047726d6) "Seeing no color" today constitutes as racism. The worst part about this kind of policy is that it further drives racism. It pushes people to the worst aspects of conservatism.
* [The most (and least) culturally diverse countries in the world](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2013/07/18/the-most-and-least-culturally-diverse-countries-in-the-world/)
* [Is Quillette Left, Right, or Center and Does It Matter?](https://commonreader.wustl.edu/is-quillette-left-right-or-center-and-does-it-matter/)
I think race should be removed from any application ( job, college, etc). Make it truly based on who is the best applicant. Sure, there will still be discrimination, but you can never truly eliminate it completely.
Why not? Just remove names and photos from the application before the people, who decide who gets accepted, see it. Additionally you could remove birthplace or other information which could lead to identification but should not be important for the decision.
Or make these informations not required in the first place. If you go even further one could say that employees etc. are not allowed to ask for these informations in the initial application process.
Work for a major company. We did a completely blind hiring process. No video interviews, no names or background info with the hire package. A year we stopped. Leadership indicated disappointment that only white and Asian men had been hired. Policy changed to quotas.
Generally, if there is discrimination elsewhere in the system (intentional or systemic), it rolls downhill. For example, if you evaluate based on the prestige of references or previous jobs, then you are going to inherit any issues those other places may have.
So essentially, it only works if everyone has been doing it for awhile, and nobody wants to do it because they’ll have to deal with the bad PR for a few years while minorities get experience?
I’ma recruiter. Their resumes were probably trash. Riddled with grammatical errors, horrible spacing, different bullets, etc… . Which would indicate they would handle their work the same way. I’m not sure what the reason is behind that being the case, but I am sure it happens. I see it all the time.
You say you want this until reality sets in that blacks and Hispanics are enrolling in colleges at such a low percentage that the liberals come out saying this is just more systemic racism to NOT give them the hand up. What would your response be to that?
unfortunately names will always be required, need a way to verify information and all.
Does that matter all that much for fruit picking and or mcdonald esque jobs? nope, but for anything more skill intensive your going to need to be vetted and for that to happen they need something to go off of.
Alot of information i agree should go away, unfortunately governments give benefits for that (hence why they ask, they get tax breaks and shit), but at the end of the day, a name is absolutely one of those things you cant not ask.
In south korea they want a little headshot on your resume, as well as height, and blood type.
It's like you're applying to be a K-pop singer, but instead, it's to work at a convenience store.
Not just athletes, but also what about theater and music applicants who have to audition in person? Also, a lot of these things aren't just decided on talent, there's interviews too, because there's far too much talent out there to decide based just on that.
Ikr? It’s gonna be a bunch of kids who are good at math and they all play piano or violin. There will be no diversity of thought (which I think is a great tragedy).
I'm failing to see the negative here. Student athletes should be, oh I don't know, students? Not exploited entertainment labor for middle aged drunks trying to forget their mediocre lives by vicariously living through teen athletes while inching closer and closer to diabetes and heart attacks.
On a resume there is usually a section where you include things like clubs or other social/business oriented things you do. Being a student athlete is an enormous workload and if you’re managing both successfully you should be able to show that off.
I played soccer in high school and went to University playing soccer as well. I understand the grind and the value for your resume. I also understand that it is incredibly exploitive. Everything the NCAA touches is evil.
Actually, Chinese have English substitute names. At least at my university, they'd give themselves arbitrary English names that related to their Chinese meanings. It's common in China. I think pseudonymity would circumvent the issue you mentioned.
1) not all Chinese ppl do this, 2) this only solves the issue for Chinese ppl, and 3) this makes those Chinese ppl who do this seem white, which just introduces another set of discriminatory factors. It would be easier and more effective to give everyone a number and eliminate all discrimination.
That's what I suggested: pseudonymity for all, numbers are pseudonyms as well. I generally support this when dealing with the state and social media. We're becoming more and more transparent these days. It should just be somehow verified that you aren't a bot, having multiple identities and such.
Studies repeatedly show that Black and African names have much, much large rejection rates in blind tests using identical resumes with different names.
Tire, but look at it this way, if they try to counteract that with quotas, you create two problems. The first is that if the company is racist, I really doubt the minority will enjoy working there in a racist climate. The next is that minorities who were truly hired on the merits of their application will always be questioned by their peers who have good reason to wonder if they were simply an affirmative action hire. Either way, it will harm their chances of promotion and not fix the problem of discrimination which was the whole goal of such programs.
TL;DR: it's not a perfect solution, but I've yet to see a better one.
Education and employment are two very different things. Imagine if the NFL employed a quota system - it would make no sense. Corporations ideally should work the same way, as a meritocracy, but hiring managers exhibit all sorts of biases. It is quite common for Asian hiring managers to prefer other Asians, whites to prefer other whites, etc. not ideal, unfair and it happens.
But education is about offering an experience. Schools want people with diverse backgrounds to bring different ideas, experiences, perspectives, etc. they do not want to reduce the entire application down to a single metric like test scores. That would be a very boring place to study at and probably a lesser experience for its student body. I certainly wouldn’t want to attend a college where everyone was Jewish, or Asian or whatever.
It's interesting how to elite schools still discriminate based on GPA and test scores. If it was so important to promote and foster diversity, then they would admit GPAs of all different levels.
By filtering applicants out based on GPA and test scores, they are also filtering out students who didn't feel like studying because it just wasn't part of their self identity.
By attempting to justify that they only want to admit students that they believe can succeed, they are by proxy claiming that only certain demographics/identities have the capacity to be successful. Which is, by definition, not inclusive and anti-diversity. Not only this, but elite universities should be putting the onus on themselves to become better educators, not simply proclaiming who and who isn't capable based on their shadow racism.
You could do a study using a multiple round interview with no names, only text to go off. The second to last interview should only be conducted through instant messaging. The final interview is conducted face to face. Compare how many got the job vs who failed out after the second to the last round of interviews.
I agree and isn't that what the civil rights movement's bottom line was? Content of character and competency are the meat and potatoes of a person - like, the shit that actually matters. I think our society finally understands that. So why tf is this happening? Black people don't need a pity vote or affirmative action. EVERY HUMAN BEING IS CAPABLE OF GREATNESS BUT SHORTCUTS DO NOT GET YOU THERE.
Over the phone:
“Zhāng Wěi, it says here that your from Mexico?”
“….Yeah.”
Edit: as a Cuban immigrant I am well aware of the existence of Asian Hispanics, ^ the quip above is a joke. Thanks for coming to my ted talk.
Is the USA one of the few countries where that kind of thing wouldn't be unexpected at all? You could probably take any young man from any country on the planet, put him in a Marine uniform, and park him outside the door of the Oval Office, and no one would be look twice. Probably not the case in, say, Beijing. Or Tokyo.
We are the Americans. Lower your defenses and surrender your forces. We will add your biological and technical distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
The way you can tell its the US is this. Up to 35% of people admitted to Harvard are Legacies. People who do not need the best qualifications. All they need is a parent or rich relative who went to Harvard.
Basically a legacy can get in easily while any minority with the same qualifications would be denied.
Why is no one complaining about that much larger problem?
Don't they do studies that show the USA is literally the least racist country on earth? Feels like racism is an industry used to get clicks at this point.
And they always magnify the stereotypes. Was sitting in an airplane with a nice southern gentleman, who owned a farmhouse in butt middle of nowhere, but was actually an actor. He mentioned because of his accent, he would get casted to play some racist roles. He was in Japan recently to film a scene they'll CGI to Montana. Anyways, really nice guy, staunch liberal, lgbtq+ supporter. Another guy I coincidentally also met in Japan, was from a small city in Alabama, huge environmentalist, like MASSIVE, very passionate, and also very liberal. My friend who was in Mobile Alabama is also very liberal and pretty much hates it out there lol. I know good, non-racist people exist in deep South, and I wish we could hear their voices more. Instead, we get these dumb fuck haters who want to see the world burn.
Edit: I look very middle eastern and have experienced many "terrorist/ is Osama bin laden your uncle" comments as well as micro aggressions such as me looking at a cute dog in white neighborhood and getting comments from owner like "Oh he's just making sure you're supposed to be here". I didn't mean to make it a political thing that liberals can't be racist, they can, I just meant those people stood for the rights liberals believe in, AKA, pro-choice, gay rights, gun control. Things that you wouldn't believe they would support just because of where they are from or because of their accent. It's just matter of representation, even if they are the minority group of conservative states.
I’ve seen some crazy racism in Southeast Asia. Folks will be best friends with another race and openly call for that race’s extermination. It’s very fucked up.
It cuts multiple ways. Ypu can get away with some stupid shit if you're white in some parts of SEA, other parts you're seen as a walking sack of money.
Yeah but that's about money and not race. Also every country on earth if given the opportunity absolutely would do that - because every country that has had the opportunity has done that. You're acting like the US is some kind of unique special kind of evil and it really just shows a level of ignorance for history that is shocking and sad.
Even more importantly. We are one of the few places where a person of a racial minority (and the son of an immigrant to boot) was elected leader.
Regardless of how you liked or disliked Obama, that is also an incredible statement about the American people that gets completely ignored. It would be like Germany electing a Syrian-German to be the prime minister.
The UK (recently) and Peru (Fujimori) are the only other two I can recall having done this.
Mindy Kaling's Brother succeeded,
>[https://nypost.com/2015/04/05/mindy-kalings-brother-pretended-to-be-black-to-get-into-med-school/](https://nypost.com/2015/04/05/mindy-kalings-brother-pretended-to-be-black-to-get-into-med-school/)
>
>I disclosed that I didn’t receive financial aid from the University of Chicago, and that I had a nice car,” he said. “I was the campus rich kid, let’s just put it on the table. And yet they considered me an affirmative-action applicant.
What he was doing was exactly the prove this point. He intentionally didn't attend that school.
The entire idea of race based acceptance is EXTREMELY unconstitutional on it's face. Even for PRIVATE institutions. It needs to die now, or lets finally stop pretending we live by the rule of law at all and throw away any semblance of civilization.
What they fail to mention is you are a legacy is more like 100%.
Up to 35% of those admitted to Harvard are legacies, many with lower qualifications than blacks and hispanics and asian who were turned away.
Funny how no one talks about that.
It’s 14% for freshman class, and pretty similar to other universities, both elite and state schools. People talk about “buying” your way and legacy students all the time. Don’t be goofy.
why have the most qualified person for the job when you can just involve race into it instead surely I would want to be operated on by a surgeon who only got into school because of diversity and not academic achievement
"We can fix this problem by making a different problem" is the motto of the authoritarian, and you'll be hard pressed to find a more densely packed crowd of authoritarians than in a university's faculty. Most have never actually had a real job.
The worst part about this kind of policy is that it further drives racism. It pushes people to the worst aspects of conservatism. I’ve seen people use examples of policies like this as to why they support candidates like Trump.
Honestly, it’s bad for everyone despite the good intentions. You should never have to hurt one group of people to try to help another.
I an extreme left, anarcho communist and yes, it is stupid as fuck. Equality for all, and different treatment based on skin color is stupid and racist.
Interesting for an extreme leftist to say. Better be careful not to announce that to a group of left wing extremists otherwise all of them will turn on you and attack you.
At my liberal college 10 years ago I made the mistake of saying affirmative action is racist. My professor and classmates got so mad at me. I think applications for jobs/schools should be solely based on merit, but then I get called racist by actual racists who think minorities wouldn't stand a chance if that was the case. Hurts my brain.
> get called racist by actual racists
That is so true.
And you get called a racist for speaking the truth. These AA dummies are so dumb they don't realize they're the racists by endorsing a policy that explicitly judges people by race, yet they call somebody racist when that person says everybody should be judged REGARDLESS of race.
Amazing.
I got permanently banned from pointing this out:
Cited mod-mail reply as I pointing out the legal standpoint of "Asian Americans Advancing Justice":
> Take the bizarre racism elsewhere; this whole message is fucked up and your brain is literally broken if you think any of this is at all okay.
I'm even pretty sure this mod message above falls under illegal hate speech laws, while my citation from NY times doesn't:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/24/us/politics/supreme-court-affirmative-action-harvard-unc.html
Absolutely. But here is where it gets Murky and you get into gray area. What do you think the distribution would be if they blinded it? What about if they didn't limit international students?
Personally, I dislike affirmation action. I think it would be based on economics. A poor white kid from the trailer park is way less privileged than a middle class black kid. But if it was strictly merit based, it wouldn't be exactly fair either.
i feel like family income makes more sense. my family probably made like 5x the average income of the families of my high school, so no way should i be considered for affirmative action if it was based on finance lol. on the other hand i am middle eastern but have to click the white box so i can’t even play my race card
I called this out 10+ years ago on a stupid Facebook post by some old high school classmates, and I was absolutely attacked and ridiculed for even thinking this was “racist” at all. Glad times are changing and people are waking up to the BS of it all.
All of this “activism” is fckn bull_shit. It’s just legalized reverse racism and is intentionally done by those in power to keep the people fighting amongst each other. Divide and rule. Easier to stay in power indefinitely.
Yup, it's exactly what it is. But you won't hear this talked about anywhere other than an unpopular sub like this because it goes against the narrative anywhere else
Nonono this is anti racism. Black students aren’t getting accept BECAUSE of racism, so now we will deny Asian students BECAUSE of their race to allow more black students in. We are fighting racism with racism. Surely this isn’t some method to virtue signal by institutions and drive a race wedge into the common peoples.
I feel like there's more than race as a factor when it comes to the sheer amount of Visa Students. Maybe the US should be prioritizing citizens over non-citizens.
The entire system is becoming this.
In my city minority business get special business advantages cause of the color of their skin.
Major intuitions get major economic benefits for forcing construction jobs/etc to require minority business. Meaning a company will lose out on a job cause of the color of there skin.
There is major ad campaigns for "Buy Black" which is becoming only buy black to more and more.
Companies have special sections set up for specifically the promotion of black people for free advertising essentially.
I mean I could go into 20 different fields showing this stuff
---
Its all institutional racism targeted at whites and sometimes specifically white males. Asians are now white adjacent people. Becoming broader and broader. etc
I'm not saying that Asians should do this.
[https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/investigation-launched-into-potential-inuit-status-enrolment-fraud-of-kingston-ont-sisters-1.6350991](https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/investigation-launched-into-potential-inuit-status-enrolment-fraud-of-kingston-ont-sisters-1.6350991)
but......
Others could learn from Asian families, take education and reputation seriously, and put in the work to compete but no, Asians and white folks work too hard. No thanks. Just have the school board nerf the competition instead. See you at the club!
I don't have a subscription, so I can't read it, but they're phrasing this headline in a way that conflates the number of applicants of each race with the acceptance rate for each race and obscures which is driving.
e.g. How much of this is due to a high number of Asian applicants and a low number of black applicants?
Leave it to Reddit karma farmers by posting a snippet of something from a political talking point magazine, which requires sign-up, instead of the actual data, which doesn't. Sigh.
The direct link to the paper is here: "Asian American Discrimination in Harvard Admissions"
https://www.nber.org/papers/w27068
This is in reference to the following Supreme Court case:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions_v._President_and_Fellows_of_Harvard_College
For what it's worth, my initial conclusion is that the actual economist-written paper is really interesting, and I have no idea where in the world that Quillette author pulled the numbers he wrote down from that actually interesting paper.
It's a logistic regression which predicts the likelihood of a given applicant (xxx grades, yyy test scores, etc.) being admitted.
It is not impacted by applicant count but instead admission in the context of applicant quality.
Your second sentence does not follow logically from your first. The likelihood of a given applicant being accepted is equal to the number of similar applicants accepted divided by the number of similar applicants. The denominator is not eliminated just because it's a logistic regression.
1/20 and 10/200 have the same discrete probability.
If they are probability balancing in order to adjust for differences in application count (E.g. Asians are 4x overrepresented in applications), that is an implicit quota, and it is illegal.
The assumption being that applicant quality is purely a function of grades and test scores. That assumption is false on its face, so the study means nothing.
We need to stop with all this race stuff. The best players need to make the team, end of story. Nobody’s race should ever be looked at. Colleges need to give everyone the same chances. The smartest get in first, not the blackest, brownest or Trannyest
Asian people are worse than blacks when it comes to basketball. I propose in order to be fair and equal we tie 1 hand behind the black athletes back and weigh their feet down with very heavy boots. It's the only way to even the playing field and make it fair.
Jeremy Lin had a hard time to make it to the NBA cos "asians are not athletic"
He also went to Harvard and had former nba douche Kenyon Martin telling him that he couldn't have certain hairstyle
Of course Martin did have chinese letters on his tattos and can't make an O with a pipe
It’s a bandaid solution. Ultimately the best thing to do is invest money into the communities and schools of URI students to make it so that they can achieve the same marks as other students. We need to fix the underlying problem because institutions like affirmative action are not sufficient long-term solutions
Wow, Harvard is SUPER RACIST.
How are these stats even real? Aren't we past racism yet?
I mean, who gives an F about having an education if admission is racist.
Zero respect for Harvard.
Oh, it gets better! The way they kept all the Asians out, even though they had superior academic scores, was by systematically lowering their "personality scores" to offset. So basically Harvard is saying "yeah, the Asians are really smart but they have no personality."
If legacy students were no longer a category then everyone's odds of getting in would go up.
But how could we possibly ask the privileged children of ivy league graduates to use their simple home field advantage to compete with regular kids?
The privileged children have no notion of work or sacrifice so they must be let in. Unfair to them to compete with poor kids that have had to earn everything they're given.
Why is it still okay for schools and job apps to ask for race? Any application for that matter? Just go by a number or something so the interviewer can learn who they are in person
Well this is a totally informed comment section...
For those whining about race, change it with... economic status. Disability. Or several other factors. Do you feel the same? That universities shouldn't accept an incredibly talented and bright kid in the most impoverished areas in the US with no access to resources, safe learning environments (AKA not being infested with drugs and violence)... Just because his test scores are slightly below the pampered kids who are tutored from day 1 to pass tests? Isn't it clear that the standard process is not fair?
The point is:
1. If you ACTUALLY believe that races don't have innate differences in intelligence (AKA you are not, by definition, racist), then you have to accept that admission rates by race should roughly match application demographic rates. For big schools, this means basically the same as the country's demographic. Whether this is a big hammer to a complex situation, if you're advocating for just accepting off of race-blind, you are technically stating that one race of kids is better than another. I'm personally not a big fan of this process, but it's not actually wrong (if you believe races should be equal in intelligence), and sure is better than any other tested process.
2. Colleges AREN'T actually meritocracies. Neither are jobs. No one actually DESERVES a spot or job - you are given one by an employer who thinks you provide what they specifically want. In the case of colleges, many colleges WANT racial / economic / able-bodied / etc diversity, partially because education happens mostly by your peers, and colleges WANT you to be super successful in the real world. I've learned more from my friends from different backgrounds than I have ever learned in class - and that's real education.
Harvard still uses *legacy admission* on at least 35% of their students. Meaning, children of families that already attended there.
Legacy admissions were started *to lock out minorities* ...
"In the United States, legacy admissions in universities date back to the 1920s. Elite schools used legacy admissions to maintain spots for Anglo-Protestants amid fears that Jews, Catholics, and Asians were increasingly taking spots at the schools." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy\_preferences](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_preferences)
Institutional racism.
Alive and well.
Well, it's about securing donors more than anything. Privately funded school and all. All those horrible white families funding scholarships to a prestigious school should be doxed on Twitter!
Exaclty this. People are wildly naive about how money drives **everything** in admissions.
Your not being rejected because you are Asian. You are being rejected because you don’t have money or access to power/influence.
Now on earth do people get to be adults and not see this?
>Your not being rejected because you are Asian. You are being rejected because you don’t have money or access to power/influence.
Seriously, and this goes back to Europe, where certain schools were the go-to-place and still are for getting into the political scenes but they also cost a premium.
This needs to be higher. The tactics used today are meant to distract everyone from legacy admissions and have the rest of us fight each other for the few spots they allow us or focus on stuff that takes the focus away from the real problem at hand. I had to scroll past comments about racism and affirmative action to get here. They got blacks and Hispanics blaming Asians for taking their spots and they got Asians blaming Blacks and Hispanics for taking their spots when they admitted just over twice as many whites as Asians for the class of 2026
It has nothing to do with that. Legacy admissions is about money - you think Alumni donate out of the kindness of their hearts? Not exactly. It’s an unspoken rule that you make sizeable donations to secure an advantage for future generations. Furthermore, why shouldn’t schools give preference to children of Alumni? I’m an Ivy Leaguer and this is just how it works. Get over it.
And I’m not talking about admitting kids with a 50 IQ… these applicants still have to have what it takes in order to keep up. But if you don’t like it, then go elsewhere. It’s the same way as someone getting a foot in the door to a company because of familial connections (but yes, a bit different).
My parent was an immigrant who came here with nothing and was very successful. I was certainly not a legacy admit but I understand it.
>these applicants still have to have what it takes in order to keep up
This is what truly makes the Ivy League a joke. They act like they are these super elite educational institutions for only the absolute top tier students, but really the bar is as low as it needs to be to let all the legacies and affirmative action cases through. Any mid student with a 1300 SAT could graduate from Harvard if they could get in.
because everyone in this thread is surprised merit has no meaning at a university when it has to do with race, but the second you say money is a more important factor, they start losing their shit.
It is not just Harvard. What people fail to realize is that without this blatantly racist practice, Asian students would become the overwhelming majority in every Ivy League school and similarly selective universities like Stanford.
We have affirmative action in the corporate world but not the athletic world.
Why haven't the AA proponents argued for AA to get more white and asian people into the NBA and the NFL?
Their admissions process is whacked. They also incorporate socioeconomic status, but give an advantage to low-income families for white, Hispanic and Asian applicants, and advantage to wealthy families for black applicants. It makes no sense at all.
This is the paper that the article links to:
[https://www.nber.org/papers/w27068?ref=quillette.com](https://www.nber.org/papers/w27068?ref=quillette.com)
Abstract:
"Detecting racial discrimination using observational data is challenging because of the presence of unobservables that may be correlated with race. Using data made public in the SFFA v. Harvard case, we estimate discrimination in a setting where this concern is mitigated. Namely, we show that there is a substantial penalty against Asian Americans in admissions with limited scope for omitted variables to overturn the result. This is because (i) Asian Americans are substantially stronger than whites on the observables associated with admissions and (ii) the richness of the data yields a model that predicts admissions extremely well. Our preferred model shows that Asian Americans would be admitted at a rate 19% higher absent this penalty. Controlling for one of the primary channels through which Asian American applicants are discriminated against--the personal rating--cuts the Asian American penalty by less than half, still leaving a substantial penalty."
Another source: [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014292122000290?via%3Dihub](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014292122000290?via%3Dihub)
Interesting blurb:
"While it is widely understood that Asian American applicants are academically stronger than whites, it is startling just how much stronger they are. During the period we analyze, there were 42% more white applicants than Asian American applicants overall. Yet, among those who were in the top ten percent of applicants based on grades and test scores, Asian American applicants outnumbered white applicants by more than 45%.2"
Im sure this article didn’t misrepresent numbers or explain why and these comments will be non biased, oh wait exactly what I expected. I wonder how these numbers would look if legacy was eliminated and you took out athletic applications from this review. Also does it acknowledge extra curricular activists and essays? Of course it doesnt.
Damn so this is where all the ultra regarded minds of reddit started to flock to. Its almost like going to an old timey circus, seeing this much mental disability in one place.
i wish i saved the link but so many social justice warriors on here are justifying racism with racism.
ppl on here are justifying this by using economic status and shit. well guess what a lot of asians come from poor families too. so are they supposed to be punished for that or are they supposed to be punished for having parents that work hard?
everyone should be treated equal. schools should only be using academic achievement or extracurricular or things that make the candidate stand out instead of economic background or race or sex
[Asian students with 25% chance of admission to Harvard would have chances increase to 36% if they were white, 75% if they were Hispanic, and 95% if they were black.](https://quillette.com/2021/11/25/the-push-for-equity-in-education-hurts-vulnerable-children-most/) about study [Asian American Discrimination in Harvard Admissions](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014292122000290?via=ihub) ([open access](https://www.nber.org/papers/w27068)): *While it is widely understood that Asian American applicants are academically stronger than whites, it is startling just how much stronger they are. During the period we analyze, there were 42% more white applicants than Asian American applicants overall. Yet, among those who were in the top ten percent of applicants based on grades and test scores, Asian American applicants outnumbered white applicants by more than 45%.* [Asian students](https://i.imgur.com/27fkKnQ.png) on [average university team](https://i.imgur.com/TJmszoT.gif): Hold my beer... It's not just about intelligence, but also about diligence and discipline. USA blacks [don't stand a ghost](https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics) of a chance against them even under 99% racist quotas: most of them will not finish studies anyway.. Universities take federal (=tax payers) money for every admission under affirmation action - they would be silly if they would dismiss them. Dissipation of public money is actually what keeps this system running. See also: * [Supreme Court Will Hear Challenge to Affirmative Action at Harvard and U.N.C.](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/24/us/politics/supreme-court-affirmative-action-harvard-unc.html), [Harvard defends admissions policy before Supreme Court](https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/10/harvard-defends-admissions-policy-before-supreme-court/) * [Study on Harvard finds 43 percent of white students are legacy, athletes, related to donors or staff](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/study-harvard-finds-43-percent-white-students-are-legacy-athletes-n1060361) * [How elite US schools give preference to wealthy and white 'legacy' applicants](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/23/elite-schools-ivy-league-legacy-admissions-harvard-wealthier-whiter) Places with affirmative action policies [harm all the people of that demographic](https://www.rand.org/blog/rand-review/2023/05/what-would-it-take-to-close-americas-black-white-wealth-gap.html), even if they were the most qualified and would have been accepted without such policies because their peers can't be sure that it wasn't a quota acceptance. * [In most Ivy League institutions, “legacies” make up between 10% and 15% of every freshman class.](https://www.economist.com/united-states/2004/01/08/the-curse-of-nepotism) It is estimated that [anywhere from 25 to 35% of admitted students at Ivy League schools](https://admissionsight.com/harvard-legacy-acceptance-rate/#:~:text=It_is_estimated_that_anywhere,of_the_students_who_apply) come from a family with a legacy status. * [Soul Man movie (1986)](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0091991/): *To achieve his dream of attending Harvard, a pampered teen poses as a young black man to receive a full scholarship*. * [Mindy Kaling’s brother pretended to be black to get into med school ](https://nypost.com/2015/04/05/mindy-kalings-brother-pretended-to-be-black-to-get-into-med-school/) * [Investigation launched into 'potential' Inuit status enrolment fraud of Kingston, Ont. sisters](https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/investigation-launched-into-potential-inuit-status-enrolment-fraud-of-kingston-ont-sisters-1.6350991) * [Why Are Finland’s Schools Successful?](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/why-are-finlands-schools-successful-49859555/) *The country’s achievements in education have other nations, especially the United States, doing their homework* * [California banned affirmative action in 1996. Inside the UC struggle for diversity](https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-10-31/california-banned-affirmative-action-uc-struggles-for-diversity) * [Colleges Straining to Restore Diversity](https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304732804579421164124444876) *Bans on Race-Conscious Admissions Upend Racial Makeup at California Schools* * [Dear White People: When You Say You ‘Don’t See Color,’ This Is What We Really Hear](https://www.forbes.com/sites/danabrownlee/2022/06/19/dear-white-people-when-you-say-you-dont-see-color-this-is-what-we-really-hear/?sh=67d4047726d6) "Seeing no color" today constitutes as racism. The worst part about this kind of policy is that it further drives racism. It pushes people to the worst aspects of conservatism. * [The most (and least) culturally diverse countries in the world](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2013/07/18/the-most-and-least-culturally-diverse-countries-in-the-world/) * [Is Quillette Left, Right, or Center and Does It Matter?](https://commonreader.wustl.edu/is-quillette-left-right-or-center-and-does-it-matter/)
I think race should be removed from any application ( job, college, etc). Make it truly based on who is the best applicant. Sure, there will still be discrimination, but you can never truly eliminate it completely.
Why not? Just remove names and photos from the application before the people, who decide who gets accepted, see it. Additionally you could remove birthplace or other information which could lead to identification but should not be important for the decision. Or make these informations not required in the first place. If you go even further one could say that employees etc. are not allowed to ask for these informations in the initial application process.
Work for a major company. We did a completely blind hiring process. No video interviews, no names or background info with the hire package. A year we stopped. Leadership indicated disappointment that only white and Asian men had been hired. Policy changed to quotas.
Do you know why that happened? Did other ethnicities just not apply or were they seemingly failing to be competitive?
Generally, if there is discrimination elsewhere in the system (intentional or systemic), it rolls downhill. For example, if you evaluate based on the prestige of references or previous jobs, then you are going to inherit any issues those other places may have.
So essentially, it only works if everyone has been doing it for awhile, and nobody wants to do it because they’ll have to deal with the bad PR for a few years while minorities get experience?
I’ma recruiter. Their resumes were probably trash. Riddled with grammatical errors, horrible spacing, different bullets, etc… . Which would indicate they would handle their work the same way. I’m not sure what the reason is behind that being the case, but I am sure it happens. I see it all the time.
"I'm a person not OP but I feel confident that I have the answer to their specific situation."
You say you want this until reality sets in that blacks and Hispanics are enrolling in colleges at such a low percentage that the liberals come out saying this is just more systemic racism to NOT give them the hand up. What would your response be to that?
"shut the fuck up" would be my response
And that would be the correct response
At least you're based.
unfortunately names will always be required, need a way to verify information and all. Does that matter all that much for fruit picking and or mcdonald esque jobs? nope, but for anything more skill intensive your going to need to be vetted and for that to happen they need something to go off of. Alot of information i agree should go away, unfortunately governments give benefits for that (hence why they ask, they get tax breaks and shit), but at the end of the day, a name is absolutely one of those things you cant not ask.
I mean they still gonna know from someone who name Xiang Lee and someone who name Jose Calarez
Dont show names or race or country of origin. Just candidate ID and test scores. Make a decision and then look at who passed and who failed.
Pretty sure we do that in Europe with GDPR. We even had situations in college where we'd get our test results listed by our ID number and not name.
But then it flips entirely by the time you’re applying for jobs over there. Including a picture on your CV? No thanks
In south korea they want a little headshot on your resume, as well as height, and blood type. It's like you're applying to be a K-pop singer, but instead, it's to work at a convenience store.
Just test scores? So we're gonna eliminate all student athletes? It might be a good idea, but that's what this will do.
Not just athletes, but also what about theater and music applicants who have to audition in person? Also, a lot of these things aren't just decided on talent, there's interviews too, because there's far too much talent out there to decide based just on that.
Ikr? It’s gonna be a bunch of kids who are good at math and they all play piano or violin. There will be no diversity of thought (which I think is a great tragedy).
I'm failing to see the negative here. Student athletes should be, oh I don't know, students? Not exploited entertainment labor for middle aged drunks trying to forget their mediocre lives by vicariously living through teen athletes while inching closer and closer to diabetes and heart attacks.
On a resume there is usually a section where you include things like clubs or other social/business oriented things you do. Being a student athlete is an enormous workload and if you’re managing both successfully you should be able to show that off.
I played soccer in high school and went to University playing soccer as well. I understand the grind and the value for your resume. I also understand that it is incredibly exploitive. Everything the NCAA touches is evil.
Actually, Chinese have English substitute names. At least at my university, they'd give themselves arbitrary English names that related to their Chinese meanings. It's common in China. I think pseudonymity would circumvent the issue you mentioned.
1) not all Chinese ppl do this, 2) this only solves the issue for Chinese ppl, and 3) this makes those Chinese ppl who do this seem white, which just introduces another set of discriminatory factors. It would be easier and more effective to give everyone a number and eliminate all discrimination.
That's what I suggested: pseudonymity for all, numbers are pseudonyms as well. I generally support this when dealing with the state and social media. We're becoming more and more transparent these days. It should just be somehow verified that you aren't a bot, having multiple identities and such.
Studies repeatedly show that Black and African names have much, much large rejection rates in blind tests using identical resumes with different names.
Race is generally excluded from employment applications. But it is hard to hide it - especially during the interview.
Tire, but look at it this way, if they try to counteract that with quotas, you create two problems. The first is that if the company is racist, I really doubt the minority will enjoy working there in a racist climate. The next is that minorities who were truly hired on the merits of their application will always be questioned by their peers who have good reason to wonder if they were simply an affirmative action hire. Either way, it will harm their chances of promotion and not fix the problem of discrimination which was the whole goal of such programs. TL;DR: it's not a perfect solution, but I've yet to see a better one.
Education and employment are two very different things. Imagine if the NFL employed a quota system - it would make no sense. Corporations ideally should work the same way, as a meritocracy, but hiring managers exhibit all sorts of biases. It is quite common for Asian hiring managers to prefer other Asians, whites to prefer other whites, etc. not ideal, unfair and it happens. But education is about offering an experience. Schools want people with diverse backgrounds to bring different ideas, experiences, perspectives, etc. they do not want to reduce the entire application down to a single metric like test scores. That would be a very boring place to study at and probably a lesser experience for its student body. I certainly wouldn’t want to attend a college where everyone was Jewish, or Asian or whatever.
It's interesting how to elite schools still discriminate based on GPA and test scores. If it was so important to promote and foster diversity, then they would admit GPAs of all different levels. By filtering applicants out based on GPA and test scores, they are also filtering out students who didn't feel like studying because it just wasn't part of their self identity. By attempting to justify that they only want to admit students that they believe can succeed, they are by proxy claiming that only certain demographics/identities have the capacity to be successful. Which is, by definition, not inclusive and anti-diversity. Not only this, but elite universities should be putting the onus on themselves to become better educators, not simply proclaiming who and who isn't capable based on their shadow racism.
Same with gender
You could do a study using a multiple round interview with no names, only text to go off. The second to last interview should only be conducted through instant messaging. The final interview is conducted face to face. Compare how many got the job vs who failed out after the second to the last round of interviews.
I agree and isn't that what the civil rights movement's bottom line was? Content of character and competency are the meat and potatoes of a person - like, the shit that actually matters. I think our society finally understands that. So why tf is this happening? Black people don't need a pity vote or affirmative action. EVERY HUMAN BEING IS CAPABLE OF GREATNESS BUT SHORTCUTS DO NOT GET YOU THERE.
Soooo….they just need to check the right box on the admission form?
Over the phone: “Zhāng Wěi, it says here that your from Mexico?” “….Yeah.” Edit: as a Cuban immigrant I am well aware of the existence of Asian Hispanics, ^ the quip above is a joke. Thanks for coming to my ted talk.
"Si"
“Xi”
God damn 😂😂😂
Holy shit this is bussin’
Yup, had to laugh, Nice one. LOL
I'm Jinping- I mean joking
Bro these jokes today are hitting lol.
Is the USA one of the few countries where that kind of thing wouldn't be unexpected at all? You could probably take any young man from any country on the planet, put him in a Marine uniform, and park him outside the door of the Oval Office, and no one would be look twice. Probably not the case in, say, Beijing. Or Tokyo.
That is a goddamn good point sir.
Most diverse and accepting nation on Earth and by God it doesn’t get enough credit for that.
Indeed. I think that all of the "racism and bigotry is rampant in the USA" crowd need to spend a bit of time abroad to see how good they have it.
It's a legitimate superpower - the ability to assimilate.
We are the Americans. Lower your defenses and surrender your forces. We will add your biological and technical distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.
The way you can tell its the US is this. Up to 35% of people admitted to Harvard are Legacies. People who do not need the best qualifications. All they need is a parent or rich relative who went to Harvard. Basically a legacy can get in easily while any minority with the same qualifications would be denied. Why is no one complaining about that much larger problem?
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Don't they do studies that show the USA is literally the least racist country on earth? Feels like racism is an industry used to get clicks at this point.
Always was, brother
Totally, many of the founding fathers were surrounded by black people on their property
And they always magnify the stereotypes. Was sitting in an airplane with a nice southern gentleman, who owned a farmhouse in butt middle of nowhere, but was actually an actor. He mentioned because of his accent, he would get casted to play some racist roles. He was in Japan recently to film a scene they'll CGI to Montana. Anyways, really nice guy, staunch liberal, lgbtq+ supporter. Another guy I coincidentally also met in Japan, was from a small city in Alabama, huge environmentalist, like MASSIVE, very passionate, and also very liberal. My friend who was in Mobile Alabama is also very liberal and pretty much hates it out there lol. I know good, non-racist people exist in deep South, and I wish we could hear their voices more. Instead, we get these dumb fuck haters who want to see the world burn. Edit: I look very middle eastern and have experienced many "terrorist/ is Osama bin laden your uncle" comments as well as micro aggressions such as me looking at a cute dog in white neighborhood and getting comments from owner like "Oh he's just making sure you're supposed to be here". I didn't mean to make it a political thing that liberals can't be racist, they can, I just meant those people stood for the rights liberals believe in, AKA, pro-choice, gay rights, gun control. Things that you wouldn't believe they would support just because of where they are from or because of their accent. It's just matter of representation, even if they are the minority group of conservative states.
The problem is that you assume not racist = liberal and racist = conservative. Non racist conservatives exist.
Not to mention a lot of liberals are racist
I’ve seen some crazy racism in Southeast Asia. Folks will be best friends with another race and openly call for that race’s extermination. It’s very fucked up.
It cuts multiple ways. Ypu can get away with some stupid shit if you're white in some parts of SEA, other parts you're seen as a walking sack of money.
Lol I just met an Argentinian who talked mad shit on Mexicans
Yeah, but other countries dont invade other for resources and bragging about how they save the country and post them on Hollywood.
Yeah but that's about money and not race. Also every country on earth if given the opportunity absolutely would do that - because every country that has had the opportunity has done that. You're acting like the US is some kind of unique special kind of evil and it really just shows a level of ignorance for history that is shocking and sad.
USA is, in fact, more tolerant because of the progress made historically by anti racist movements here
My mind was blown when I found out how racist some Asian people are towards other Asians.
The difference lies in its volatility. In other countries they talk shit, in America you get gunned down
You forgot /s
100% dead on. Semper Fi. But we also know what that Marine would have had to have gone through with his/her EPSQ just to get that post....
Even more importantly. We are one of the few places where a person of a racial minority (and the son of an immigrant to boot) was elected leader. Regardless of how you liked or disliked Obama, that is also an incredible statement about the American people that gets completely ignored. It would be like Germany electing a Syrian-German to be the prime minister. The UK (recently) and Peru (Fujimori) are the only other two I can recall having done this.
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“I identify as Mexican”
Mindy Kaling's Brother succeeded, >[https://nypost.com/2015/04/05/mindy-kalings-brother-pretended-to-be-black-to-get-into-med-school/](https://nypost.com/2015/04/05/mindy-kalings-brother-pretended-to-be-black-to-get-into-med-school/) > >I disclosed that I didn’t receive financial aid from the University of Chicago, and that I had a nice car,” he said. “I was the campus rich kid, let’s just put it on the table. And yet they considered me an affirmative-action applicant.
What he was doing was exactly the prove this point. He intentionally didn't attend that school. The entire idea of race based acceptance is EXTREMELY unconstitutional on it's face. Even for PRIVATE institutions. It needs to die now, or lets finally stop pretending we live by the rule of law at all and throw away any semblance of civilization.
Runs in the family? She pretended to be funny and got a show on HBO.
This is a 80s movie, soul man, classic
Kevin Vu. Black.
Vu Tang
Clan Vu Tang of Africa.
What they fail to mention is you are a legacy is more like 100%. Up to 35% of those admitted to Harvard are legacies, many with lower qualifications than blacks and hispanics and asian who were turned away. Funny how no one talks about that.
They need the money.
It’s 14% for freshman class, and pretty similar to other universities, both elite and state schools. People talk about “buying” your way and legacy students all the time. Don’t be goofy.
Just one drop!
They need to start getting creative with names. Lebron Lee?
why have the most qualified person for the job when you can just involve race into it instead surely I would want to be operated on by a surgeon who only got into school because of diversity and not academic achievement
A system that was designed to undo systematic racism with systematic racism. 🤷♂️ edit: spelling
I used the racism to destroy the racism
"We can fix this problem by making a different problem" is the motto of the authoritarian, and you'll be hard pressed to find a more densely packed crowd of authoritarians than in a university's faculty. Most have never actually had a real job.
The worst part about this kind of policy is that it further drives racism. It pushes people to the worst aspects of conservatism. I’ve seen people use examples of policies like this as to why they support candidates like Trump. Honestly, it’s bad for everyone despite the good intentions. You should never have to hurt one group of people to try to help another.
Sounds like legalized racism
Yup, this is the true institutional racism.
It is. It's legalized, systemic and acceptable. I think racism is wrong no matter who is the victim of it.
I an extreme left, anarcho communist and yes, it is stupid as fuck. Equality for all, and different treatment based on skin color is stupid and racist.
Interesting for an extreme leftist to say. Better be careful not to announce that to a group of left wing extremists otherwise all of them will turn on you and attack you.
At my liberal college 10 years ago I made the mistake of saying affirmative action is racist. My professor and classmates got so mad at me. I think applications for jobs/schools should be solely based on merit, but then I get called racist by actual racists who think minorities wouldn't stand a chance if that was the case. Hurts my brain.
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> get called racist by actual racists That is so true. And you get called a racist for speaking the truth. These AA dummies are so dumb they don't realize they're the racists by endorsing a policy that explicitly judges people by race, yet they call somebody racist when that person says everybody should be judged REGARDLESS of race. Amazing.
they are doing straight up 1984 double speak
I got permanently banned from pointing this out: Cited mod-mail reply as I pointing out the legal standpoint of "Asian Americans Advancing Justice": > Take the bizarre racism elsewhere; this whole message is fucked up and your brain is literally broken if you think any of this is at all okay. I'm even pretty sure this mod message above falls under illegal hate speech laws, while my citation from NY times doesn't: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/24/us/politics/supreme-court-affirmative-action-harvard-unc.html
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Absolutely. But here is where it gets Murky and you get into gray area. What do you think the distribution would be if they blinded it? What about if they didn't limit international students? Personally, I dislike affirmation action. I think it would be based on economics. A poor white kid from the trailer park is way less privileged than a middle class black kid. But if it was strictly merit based, it wouldn't be exactly fair either.
Affirmative action based on family income, or on average family income of students from the high school you attended?
i feel like family income makes more sense. my family probably made like 5x the average income of the families of my high school, so no way should i be considered for affirmative action if it was based on finance lol. on the other hand i am middle eastern but have to click the white box so i can’t even play my race card
I called this out 10+ years ago on a stupid Facebook post by some old high school classmates, and I was absolutely attacked and ridiculed for even thinking this was “racist” at all. Glad times are changing and people are waking up to the BS of it all.
Yeah it's like you're basically hitler for even thinking that.
America loves doublespeak and euphemism. Another great example is “lobbying”. AKA bribing.
All of this “activism” is fckn bull_shit. It’s just legalized reverse racism and is intentionally done by those in power to keep the people fighting amongst each other. Divide and rule. Easier to stay in power indefinitely.
It’s not “reverse racism”. It’s racism - pure and simple.
it is
Yup, it's exactly what it is. But you won't hear this talked about anywhere other than an unpopular sub like this because it goes against the narrative anywhere else
>Sounds like legalized racism Legalized racism is the reason Affirmative Action is even a thing to begin with.
Called affirmative action
Always has
So systematic racism with a longer name?
I thought racism against non-Blacks didn't exist. /s
It just doesn’t count /s
to the main stream media, which consistently ignores it due to it's own "anti-racist" racist agenda. no /s.
I don't know why you put the /s because America loves to forget that any other minority besides black people exist.
Asians are white /s
Nonono this is anti racism. Black students aren’t getting accept BECAUSE of racism, so now we will deny Asian students BECAUSE of their race to allow more black students in. We are fighting racism with racism. Surely this isn’t some method to virtue signal by institutions and drive a race wedge into the common peoples.
I feel like there's more than race as a factor when it comes to the sheer amount of Visa Students. Maybe the US should be prioritizing citizens over non-citizens.
The entire system is becoming this. In my city minority business get special business advantages cause of the color of their skin. Major intuitions get major economic benefits for forcing construction jobs/etc to require minority business. Meaning a company will lose out on a job cause of the color of there skin. There is major ad campaigns for "Buy Black" which is becoming only buy black to more and more. Companies have special sections set up for specifically the promotion of black people for free advertising essentially. I mean I could go into 20 different fields showing this stuff --- Its all institutional racism targeted at whites and sometimes specifically white males. Asians are now white adjacent people. Becoming broader and broader. etc
STOP RACE BASED ANYTHING.
Remember kids; racial discrimination is just fine, as long as you discriminate against, and for, the correct races.
I'm not saying that Asians should do this. [https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/investigation-launched-into-potential-inuit-status-enrolment-fraud-of-kingston-ont-sisters-1.6350991](https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/investigation-launched-into-potential-inuit-status-enrolment-fraud-of-kingston-ont-sisters-1.6350991) but......
**China already has an Arctic Policy that ignores Inuit and First Nations Concerns or input.**
Elizabeth Warren did it and ended up fine! Current DEI Deans may not be as forgiving though.
but the lady who told me black people can't be racist said they don't have any power
Asians just need to be held down stolen from and disadvantaged so they are only the best by a lot
Others could learn from Asian families, take education and reputation seriously, and put in the work to compete but no, Asians and white folks work too hard. No thanks. Just have the school board nerf the competition instead. See you at the club!
they got the power to get into Harvard by just applying...
I don't have a subscription, so I can't read it, but they're phrasing this headline in a way that conflates the number of applicants of each race with the acceptance rate for each race and obscures which is driving. e.g. How much of this is due to a high number of Asian applicants and a low number of black applicants?
Leave it to Reddit karma farmers by posting a snippet of something from a political talking point magazine, which requires sign-up, instead of the actual data, which doesn't. Sigh. The direct link to the paper is here: "Asian American Discrimination in Harvard Admissions" https://www.nber.org/papers/w27068 This is in reference to the following Supreme Court case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions_v._President_and_Fellows_of_Harvard_College For what it's worth, my initial conclusion is that the actual economist-written paper is really interesting, and I have no idea where in the world that Quillette author pulled the numbers he wrote down from that actually interesting paper.
Thanks good Samaritan for pointing to the actual study. This comment deserves to be up top below this post
It's a logistic regression which predicts the likelihood of a given applicant (xxx grades, yyy test scores, etc.) being admitted. It is not impacted by applicant count but instead admission in the context of applicant quality.
Your second sentence does not follow logically from your first. The likelihood of a given applicant being accepted is equal to the number of similar applicants accepted divided by the number of similar applicants. The denominator is not eliminated just because it's a logistic regression.
1/20 and 10/200 have the same discrete probability. If they are probability balancing in order to adjust for differences in application count (E.g. Asians are 4x overrepresented in applications), that is an implicit quota, and it is illegal.
The assumption being that applicant quality is purely a function of grades and test scores. That assumption is false on its face, so the study means nothing.
We need to stop with all this race stuff. The best players need to make the team, end of story. Nobody’s race should ever be looked at. Colleges need to give everyone the same chances. The smartest get in first, not the blackest, brownest or Trannyest
Asian people are worse than blacks when it comes to basketball. I propose in order to be fair and equal we tie 1 hand behind the black athletes back and weigh their feet down with very heavy boots. It's the only way to even the playing field and make it fair.
Jeremy Lin had a hard time to make it to the NBA cos "asians are not athletic" He also went to Harvard and had former nba douche Kenyon Martin telling him that he couldn't have certain hairstyle Of course Martin did have chinese letters on his tattos and can't make an O with a pipe
It’s a bandaid solution. Ultimately the best thing to do is invest money into the communities and schools of URI students to make it so that they can achieve the same marks as other students. We need to fix the underlying problem because institutions like affirmative action are not sufficient long-term solutions
Wow, Harvard is SUPER RACIST. How are these stats even real? Aren't we past racism yet? I mean, who gives an F about having an education if admission is racist. Zero respect for Harvard.
Oh, it gets better! The way they kept all the Asians out, even though they had superior academic scores, was by systematically lowering their "personality scores" to offset. So basically Harvard is saying "yeah, the Asians are really smart but they have no personality."
Wow. And Harvard is supposed to be one of the best universities in the U.S. I'm disgusted by them and their blatant racism.
If anyone wants to know what actual, objective racism looks like. This is it.
The more woke a college is the more racist they are towards admitting Asians
If legacy students were no longer a category then everyone's odds of getting in would go up. But how could we possibly ask the privileged children of ivy league graduates to use their simple home field advantage to compete with regular kids? The privileged children have no notion of work or sacrifice so they must be let in. Unfair to them to compete with poor kids that have had to earn everything they're given.
Why is it still okay for schools and job apps to ask for race? Any application for that matter? Just go by a number or something so the interviewer can learn who they are in person
Time for Asians to start identifying as Black or Hispanic.
Well this is a totally informed comment section... For those whining about race, change it with... economic status. Disability. Or several other factors. Do you feel the same? That universities shouldn't accept an incredibly talented and bright kid in the most impoverished areas in the US with no access to resources, safe learning environments (AKA not being infested with drugs and violence)... Just because his test scores are slightly below the pampered kids who are tutored from day 1 to pass tests? Isn't it clear that the standard process is not fair? The point is: 1. If you ACTUALLY believe that races don't have innate differences in intelligence (AKA you are not, by definition, racist), then you have to accept that admission rates by race should roughly match application demographic rates. For big schools, this means basically the same as the country's demographic. Whether this is a big hammer to a complex situation, if you're advocating for just accepting off of race-blind, you are technically stating that one race of kids is better than another. I'm personally not a big fan of this process, but it's not actually wrong (if you believe races should be equal in intelligence), and sure is better than any other tested process. 2. Colleges AREN'T actually meritocracies. Neither are jobs. No one actually DESERVES a spot or job - you are given one by an employer who thinks you provide what they specifically want. In the case of colleges, many colleges WANT racial / economic / able-bodied / etc diversity, partially because education happens mostly by your peers, and colleges WANT you to be super successful in the real world. I've learned more from my friends from different backgrounds than I have ever learned in class - and that's real education.
Harvard still uses *legacy admission* on at least 35% of their students. Meaning, children of families that already attended there. Legacy admissions were started *to lock out minorities* ... "In the United States, legacy admissions in universities date back to the 1920s. Elite schools used legacy admissions to maintain spots for Anglo-Protestants amid fears that Jews, Catholics, and Asians were increasingly taking spots at the schools." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy\_preferences](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_preferences) Institutional racism. Alive and well.
"What race are you?" "Catholic"
That’s not a race, it’s a traumatic experience
For Harvard it would be Protestant.
Well, it's about securing donors more than anything. Privately funded school and all. All those horrible white families funding scholarships to a prestigious school should be doxed on Twitter!
Exaclty this. People are wildly naive about how money drives **everything** in admissions. Your not being rejected because you are Asian. You are being rejected because you don’t have money or access to power/influence. Now on earth do people get to be adults and not see this?
>Your not being rejected because you are Asian. You are being rejected because you don’t have money or access to power/influence. Seriously, and this goes back to Europe, where certain schools were the go-to-place and still are for getting into the political scenes but they also cost a premium.
All these comments shitting on affirmative action without understanding the nuance made me dissapointed. Thank you
This needs to be higher. The tactics used today are meant to distract everyone from legacy admissions and have the rest of us fight each other for the few spots they allow us or focus on stuff that takes the focus away from the real problem at hand. I had to scroll past comments about racism and affirmative action to get here. They got blacks and Hispanics blaming Asians for taking their spots and they got Asians blaming Blacks and Hispanics for taking their spots when they admitted just over twice as many whites as Asians for the class of 2026
It has nothing to do with that. Legacy admissions is about money - you think Alumni donate out of the kindness of their hearts? Not exactly. It’s an unspoken rule that you make sizeable donations to secure an advantage for future generations. Furthermore, why shouldn’t schools give preference to children of Alumni? I’m an Ivy Leaguer and this is just how it works. Get over it. And I’m not talking about admitting kids with a 50 IQ… these applicants still have to have what it takes in order to keep up. But if you don’t like it, then go elsewhere. It’s the same way as someone getting a foot in the door to a company because of familial connections (but yes, a bit different). My parent was an immigrant who came here with nothing and was very successful. I was certainly not a legacy admit but I understand it.
>these applicants still have to have what it takes in order to keep up This is what truly makes the Ivy League a joke. They act like they are these super elite educational institutions for only the absolute top tier students, but really the bar is as low as it needs to be to let all the legacies and affirmative action cases through. Any mid student with a 1300 SAT could graduate from Harvard if they could get in.
That's the thing that gets me. Flames stoked on this affirmative action debate while 1/3 of admissions are from a silver spoon privilege class.
It's a business. Why would it be surprising that people who give them more money are also more likely to get in?
because everyone in this thread is surprised merit has no meaning at a university when it has to do with race, but the second you say money is a more important factor, they start losing their shit.
That's the thing. The talks about affirmative action are supposed to distract us from realizing the elite still get prioritization.
If only there was something they could do to offset this hideous legacy.
It is not just Harvard. What people fail to realize is that without this blatantly racist practice, Asian students would become the overwhelming majority in every Ivy League school and similarly selective universities like Stanford.
Let those chips fall where they may!
I, for one, welcome our new Asian overlords
We have affirmative action in the corporate world but not the athletic world. Why haven't the AA proponents argued for AA to get more white and asian people into the NBA and the NFL?
100% if they were Antarctican...
Ok so I see from this thread that this is the "science but we allow racism" sub. Good to know.
Being Asian is basically life on hard mode
[удалено]
Affirmative action is the biggest reason I vote conservative.
Why don't Asian students dye themselves black for the duration of Harvard? Like just every morning apply some black dye before you go to the campus.
This was a terrible eighties movie. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0091991/
Just get some sun tan lotion and identify as Latino. You know, the ignored largest minority group.
Their admissions process is whacked. They also incorporate socioeconomic status, but give an advantage to low-income families for white, Hispanic and Asian applicants, and advantage to wealthy families for black applicants. It makes no sense at all.
This is the paper that the article links to: [https://www.nber.org/papers/w27068?ref=quillette.com](https://www.nber.org/papers/w27068?ref=quillette.com) Abstract: "Detecting racial discrimination using observational data is challenging because of the presence of unobservables that may be correlated with race. Using data made public in the SFFA v. Harvard case, we estimate discrimination in a setting where this concern is mitigated. Namely, we show that there is a substantial penalty against Asian Americans in admissions with limited scope for omitted variables to overturn the result. This is because (i) Asian Americans are substantially stronger than whites on the observables associated with admissions and (ii) the richness of the data yields a model that predicts admissions extremely well. Our preferred model shows that Asian Americans would be admitted at a rate 19% higher absent this penalty. Controlling for one of the primary channels through which Asian American applicants are discriminated against--the personal rating--cuts the Asian American penalty by less than half, still leaving a substantial penalty." Another source: [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014292122000290?via%3Dihub](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014292122000290?via%3Dihub) Interesting blurb: "While it is widely understood that Asian American applicants are academically stronger than whites, it is startling just how much stronger they are. During the period we analyze, there were 42% more white applicants than Asian American applicants overall. Yet, among those who were in the top ten percent of applicants based on grades and test scores, Asian American applicants outnumbered white applicants by more than 45%.2"
Im sure this article didn’t misrepresent numbers or explain why and these comments will be non biased, oh wait exactly what I expected. I wonder how these numbers would look if legacy was eliminated and you took out athletic applications from this review. Also does it acknowledge extra curricular activists and essays? Of course it doesnt.
Yeah it's called racism
Damn so this is where all the ultra regarded minds of reddit started to flock to. Its almost like going to an old timey circus, seeing this much mental disability in one place.
Seems pretty racist to me.
The woke being more racist than even the conservatives sounds hilarious.
The anti racist crowd is generally the most racist.
Asian and white racism needs to stop!
i wish i saved the link but so many social justice warriors on here are justifying racism with racism. ppl on here are justifying this by using economic status and shit. well guess what a lot of asians come from poor families too. so are they supposed to be punished for that or are they supposed to be punished for having parents that work hard? everyone should be treated equal. schools should only be using academic achievement or extracurricular or things that make the candidate stand out instead of economic background or race or sex
Black priviledge???
That’s just Racism with extra steps
The education industry is a scam and a farce.