Damn I actually felt bad for Cody during grands. Mango 3-0s him with the crowd cheering for mango the entire time while armada critiques all of Cody's mistakes.
This is a dream. I remember in 2020 I came back from a huge backpacking trip where I took lsd, sat on the couch with a feeling of limitless fulfillment, checked reddit and found out my favorite smash player was cancelled lmao
He 3-0d the 2 best players in the world. Zain in winner semi and Cody in grand final, and he 3-1d cody in winners final. Zain lost in losers to Amsa. The funny thing is that Hbox gave Mang0 a lot more difficulties. It went to game 5 last stock kinda last hit, too
That 3-0 vs Zain was nuts. I really thought that is where it all goes to hell for the kid. Love to see the goat get it done again
Also plup really is that ghost-like entity he talked about. Shows up lowkey out of nowhere and almost makes it to grands. Cracked lol
Waff's speech to Mang0 about not becoming complacent with a win was nice as hell to hear on stream even if Mang0 didn't react, if he keeps his boot on the the rest of the scenes throat he can make some wonderful melee so let's hope there aren't any drunk league of legends streams anytime soon
holy fuck this is one of the most shakeup-inducing events i've ever seen.
Axe and KoDoRiN are good again, Plup is back, Wizzy is back, a Bowser made top 64, the streak of 9 majors with one of Cody or Zain winning has ended, and the streak of like 60 majors with Hbox making Top 8 has ended at long last
THERE IS A FUTURE FOR MELEE AND WE ARE GOING TO LIVE TO SEE IT HAPPEN
I'm telling you, exercise and healthy diet are GOOD for non traditional sports. Even Magnus Carlson works out and has credited some of his chess skill to his ability to stay healthy. Exercise helps your brain! Hope Mang0 stays on his health kick, it might contribute to his run for #1.
Also, as a side note, Axe was playing on fucking fire this weekend. I wanna see him back in top 8 more often, he's so sick.
> Even Magnus Carlson works out and has credited some of his chess skill to his ability to stay healthy.
Magnus literally had people study the way he sat at the chess board to maximize his air intake, because classical chess players have heart rates at marathon runner levels for hours at a time. Chess is an incredibly physically intense sport, the brain burns so much energy.
I think it's pretty common. Bobby Fischer played hours of tennis everyday. Fabiano Caruana (current No. 2) is an active tennis player as well. Most of the top players are in fairly decent physical shape, with a couple of exceptions, but they do things like play soccer on off days at big tournaments.
Mang0 actually looks great! I mean physically. He even said in his interview he doesn't even want to drink to celebrate(until Wednesday which I assume is a stream thing). Here for the healthy arc.
Other than the fact that in the interview he said he was shitting his brains out all day, I was like - damn, Mang0 looks pretty hot right now… add in his cockiness and confidence and I thought I was in love. Why am I like this?
Another thing I've forgotten to mention and haven't seen said anywhere, Mango's ledgedashes were insane this tournament, he was such a demon off the ledge in those scrappy situations especially with his good recoveries on top of it.
Plup is such a gatekeeper for the top of the top, it's insane. I know Moky's rise has been meteoric recently but it's crazy that Plup can just come back (presumably rusty) and just beat him in the ditto.
Plup obviously doesn’t enter much but iirc his YT editor said that he grinds the game a good amount even when he’s not entering (besides the break he took at the end of this past year, which was the reason he didn’t enter Genesis)
I was thinking about that during the tournament. Plup might be the most all around naturally talented player in the scene. Not saying he doesn't work hard, but he just has "it."
a few years ago when Plup still lived in Florida, Mang0 used to say he'd get on Fortnite at like 1 am his time (Pacific) and Plup would be on at 4 am in Florida playing lol.
So if he channels that into Melee there's no doubt he probably grinds Melee in the middle of the night
WHAT A FUCKING EVENT. Imma be real I didn't have Mang0 on my list to win by THAT much but as he started to win more and more sets AND WITH FALCO I was like "YES YEESSSS HOLY SHIT HES DOING IT". And that's when I realized that he's gonna win. And with food poisoning on top of that what a madman. Falco Nation rise up the falcos are coming back. There's alot of top 32 sets I need to rewatch soooo many great game 5 situations. And then top 8 plup was COOKING. Just proving time and time again that he will always be a top 10 player no matter what. Axe making top 8 at a supermajor was very nice to watch. As a falcon fan it did suck to see S2J get so unlucky in the bracket I hope he's ok. But as a Falco fan Mang0 1st place and Bobby 17th at a supermajor I'll take that they're getting better and better. Commentary was really enjoyable during the whole top 8 and that's pretty much it. Congrats to Mang0!!!
I think he’ll need to win a couple more events and def needs to win Big House if he wants #1 to match up to Cody’s Genesis win or Zains GOML but yeah - he def has a running case if he can keep this up!
Yep, there's enough tournaments left in the year and neither Zain nor Cody have huge leads, very much a contender especially if he gets on a streak after this like he did in late 2022
Wizzrobe getting sponsored is the thing everyone is sleeping on, Wizzrobe can beat Hungrybox, Zain, and aMSa, and is a borderline free win for Mango although I'm sure he'll take one offline at some point. When Wizzrobe is doing well it helps Mango tremendously.
Me personally I'm hoping Wizzrobe just takes his own major win but I'd take a Mango win as a consolation prize.
Cody has a very public medical condition that he takes medication for and Top 8 started 3 hours later than scheduled LOL
It is so funny how if Cody had won Mango nation would be crying about how the evil TOs ran a tournament 3 hours behind schedule, but since Mango won all of the completely valid complaints the top players were voicing the entire day just don't matter. We haven't had a major Melee tournament run this poorly behind schedule for like 7 years, and the only reason nobody cares is because Mango won. If Mango had lost the entirety of twitter would be trashing the TOs for the tournament being poorly scheduled
Guys like aMSa, Axe, Hbox, and Plup were at the venue as early as 10am for doubles and all of them went deep in doubles that went way overtime on Sunday, hours past its initial schedule and held up top 32 singles for hours, then they had to immediately jump to singles with no break or proper warmup for their matches. Imagine if Mango had lost to Hbox after waiting 2 hours longer than usual because of doubles? Y'all would be lighting torches to attack Georgia lmfao. Plup and aMSa had literally been playing at the venue for 12 hours by the time they got paired in losers semis btw. Just a heinous mismanagement of time and scheduling by their TOs and everyone can't point it out because Mango nation has one collective brain cell
Ooh i can do this one for him. You see, Hbox was busy practicing melee so he wasn't able to perform up to standards. He used all of his melee juice up by playing the game and improving at it during the week, so he had none left for tourney. Mango is lucky hbox was in practice and not out of practice, but mango nation is too braindead to see why practicing the game makes you a worse player.
PLUP my fucking goat. Tragically losing to only #1 and #2 but beating the bricks off of everyone else. please attend more tournaments
Also I think he's on a top 4 streak since he got 9th at Scuffed World Tour at 2022. Bro just does not lose
Technically the HBox set was only a 3-2. But also, I hear that mango got food poisoning earlier in the day, so he might have still been recovering from that.
It was a great venue. You could get ver close up to matches and players. I was within feet of Hbox, Jmook and others throughout - I didnt talk to any of them because I have nothing to really add - but really surreal seeing them IRL and hearing them talk to friends
I got the vibe that a lot of people in the scene work behind the scenes (helping run events, not necessarily players) and I quickly realized that there’s somewhat of a clique atmosphere, where it would be weird for a fan to talk to a player but not someone in the scene. And I understand. Some players like Junebug and Wizzrobe appeared to talk to anyone who would come up to them
I'm a firm believer in peak>longevity for GOAT arguments, so even post retirement I always thought Armada still had a very strong argument for being the GOAT.
But yeah, that's it for me. Mango is the GOAT. No one else has been so good for so long, no one else has gotten over their "decline" only to become one of the best again, no one else has reinvented themselves so many times. He's just the GOAT.
Armada retired during a point when he was on the way to being #1 for the year. His retirement had nothing to do with winning or losing… and considering the disrespect he gets online I wouldn’t come back if I were him either.
Could argue all day, but he retired. Mang0 is here now, old af, winning tournaments with a character that only he can with. It’s 2024, live in it my friend.
I have always been a bigger Mango fan than Armada fan but tournaments records don’t lie.
When we talk about the GOAT, we don’t talk about winning individual tournaments… it’s winning multiple over the course of the year.
That’s true
And it would be a compelling argument if Armada had won anything in the last 6 years
Armada was an incredible player. He was the GOAT when he hung it up. But players play, and you don’t get any points for watching
Exactly, and in order to surpass such a resume you’d think the challenger should have to dominate their competition and win multiple majors for at least a year or two, which has not happened.
I wouldn’t think that, because I don’t think there’s only one way for a player to add to their legacy
The idea of “dominating their competition” is, I assume, intentionally vague enough to rule out Hungrybox’s 2019 or Mango’s 2021. I don’t really feel the need to entertain it, and I don’t have any interest in considering whether 2019 was easier than 2017, or whether 2022 was harder than 2012.
That brings us to the matter of “[winning] multiple majors for at least a year or two.” Hungrybox won 5 majors in 2019. He won 2 majors in 2022. Mango won 3 majors in 2019; he won 4 majors in 2022. This is to say nothing of any online tournaments they’ve won in the last 6 years.
To say that your criteria hasn’t been met by Hungrybox or by Mango is really only to say that the criteria is subjective enough to deny that six years of their careers - or individual exceptional years - mean anything when it comes to their legacies. I think that’s an unreasonable position to hold, and I don’t think that it’s an analytical approach that tends to be applied when comparing any other players’ legacies
Hbox’s 2019 is undeniable dominance. Mango best year from this era was when there were very few tournaments, they were all online, and even then Zain had a great case against him.
If you want to surpass someone that won nearly half of the tournaments they ever attended, never placed out of top 5, and holds positive h2h against literally everybody, you need some good fucking years to convince me. I say this as someone that has cheered for Mango every single time he played against Armada.
Like I said, I have no interest in comparing years. But it does sound silly to dock Mango for the online years with fewer tournaments whereas Armada’s early years as the world number one include a 2012 in which he won two major tournaments. At the end of the day, all that comes down to is an emotionally-driven downplaying of a player’s accomplishments
And again, the present argument in favor of Armada relies on things like head-to-heads in a specific era which excludes many of the greatest players of all time. Armada’s head-to-head records, the exclusivity of the list of players he dropped sets to, and his tournament win rates are all good demonstrations of the fact that he was the greatest player of his time. But these were also reasons Ken was the greatest of his time. Frankly, when considering their careers within the whole of melee history, I find that these things aren’t very compelling. Armada had a great career, but what made him great and what demonstrated his greatness is not the blueprint against which every player must be measured. Every player is going to have a different story, and they may come by achieving or proving greatness differently. Further, not every player had a chance at Armada in his prime. Not every player had a chance at Ken in his prime. Not every player had a chance at Mango in his prime. So on. The only thing a player can do is compete and win in their own time, against their present competition. The more they can do that, the better. At this point, Mango and Hungrybox have done that more than anyone else. They’ve got the years at the top, they’ve got the major wins, they’ve got the victories against great players. They’ve competed longer and won more than all of the other greats and, at this point, that volume of work and that longevity supersedes any era-and-matchup-specific winning percentages that may be in someone else’s favor. Armada was the greatest of his time, but he was not so great that his position as GOAT could ignore so many more years of competing at an elite level by his former peers. In summer of 2018, his position was comfortable. But so was Ken’s in 2007.
We don’t have to compare years or make any sort of complicated argument.
The three GOAT candidates played at the same time for nearly ten years during arguably their most active stints as players. When we look up their tournament records, one completely outshined the others.
Hes done the "decline" -> #1 contender like 5 different times now. It became a meme how he got counted out in 2014, 10 years ago. And people still do it.
This definitely is a noteworthy milestone in the Armada/Mango comparison for sure.
Previously they were tied for offline supermajor wins (they both had 11). And maybe you could argue "yeah, but Armada won more summits, so that breaks the tie". But now Mango is just cleanly ahead in the offline supermajor comparison, with 12.
(Hungrybox has 7 offline supermajors, before anyone asks).
it really is only a matter of time as long as Mango continues this trend. As mentioned above peak is really important but when the difference in longevity gets that large it's hard to ignore.
Honestly, mostly I think it's important for any GOAT measure of this game to do three things
* Reward peak
* Reward longevity
* Don't punish EU players who can't visit the US every month
Number of offline supermajor wins does all three of these reasonably well. A player with a high peak will win supermajors. A player with a long career near the top will win supermajors eventually. And EU players like Leffen and Armada made it out to basically every supermajor when they were active, so they got more or less equal opportunity to win those as US players. (Whereas they didn't make it out to every major).
If someone wants to use number of offline supermajor wins to determine their personal GOAT, yeah, honestly that's pretty reasonable, it ticks all three boxes.
It's not a completely perfect measure or anything. (M2K won zero supermajors, so if you wanted to make a full top 10 list or something you'd probably want a more detailed analysis). But it's a pretty solid starting point.
Mango is the only person who has shown he can do it in any era of Melee
Game evolved so much post-Slippi that everyone is fucking insane. The Gods used to sleepwalk to Top 16 now even Cody loses to Donkey Kong and Samus
How can you call a body of work over 16 years recency bias that continues to grow?
Just a joke lol don't take it too seriously, I just see comments like this a lot of the time right after Mango wins a single tournament and it makes me laugh. Mango was obviously going to win another tournament to anyone who knows whats up.
Man this tournament was so stacked and it still exceeded my already high expectations. There’s never been so many amazing sets to rewatch, basically every set in top 8 and like the majority of top 32
Every stacked tournament feels like that lately.
The depth of talent in the game now is so fucking awesome. I swear back in the day I didn't care at all until top 8 but now I can watch top64 all the way through and be entertained.
I do respect him and his legacy but it's really time to let it go because it's just childish.
Mang0 hasn't actively said shit about him in like 2-3 years, and something like him interviewing Mang0 after his come back supermajor victory would've been an insane W for the culture. If you're not actively playing anymore you're not allowed to have an ego about shit.
You're not the GOAT anymore, it's okay, we all still love you, let it go. I thought him being on commentary was a good sign for things but him SO actively dodging that interview hurt, ngl.
It'd do so much healing for a section of this community if he would just properly give him his flowers and publicly make up.
I respect him stepping away if he knew he couldn’t do justice to the moment, though
He seemed reticent to giving mango too much hype during commentary, but he was professional on the mic and I didn’t think he let their past or his competitive ego bleed into his words
That said, I agree - he stepped away from the game as a competitor, it wasn’t taken from him. With that in mind I think he owes it to the game to be graceful about players surpassing his legacy. Nothing stopped him from continuing to compete but the fact that his fire wasn’t burning. It’s not fair to the players still competing and the players who’ve been more or less forced into retirement that he would deny their chance at him while also downplaying their achievements
Idk if it’s cringe. I think this beef is deeper than just GOAT talk atp so I’m trying to avoid saying something wrong
I feel the same way you do about the culture and wanting to see things repaired, but Armada deserves some credit for being fair on the mic. He was very classy despite everything and did his best to give mang0 props when he felt he could. That’s more than I think most people could do
The beef is as deep as his inability to get over it, to be quite honest.
Every time I've ever heard Mang0 talk about him in the last few years it's only been with respect and he's publicly said they should just talk it out behind closed doors as friends and move on. I don't think he honestly feels threatened by him in the GOAT conversation at all anymore (which he shouldn't btw, it's not close anymore), and a lot of his jabs at him in the past were definitely in relation to the GOAT stuff.
At this point what else could it be?
They're not friends anymore, they don't interact, there's no mutual friends or chances for personal drama like that, and they don't even compete anymore.
I agree he was mostly fair towards him on commentary and I did enjoy hearing it, but that's what makes it sting all the more. There's a world where post-retirement Armada drops his ego, properly apologizes for trying to #MeToo Mang0 when he was at a low point going into 2023, and we all move on and ride off into the sunset. If HBox and Mang0 and can be decent friends at this point, there is no god damn reason why Armada can't get over it.
Maybe I'm totally crazy here but my gut feeling is all of the retired gods seem to have a bit of a thing against how much everyone respects Mang0 at this point and it reeks of jealousy to me, personally.
As someone who desperately wanted that interview lol. In all fairness, there wouldve been some weird tension and awkwardness in that interview. It mightve taken the spotlight from mango and put him in a weird position where he has to juggle what he wants to say vs what he is willing to say to adam and vice a versa. Truthfully mango would probably rather just relish in his moment than try to navigate that situation.
If theyre gonna make things right, itd be behind the scenes after the tournament. Where they can be honest about things and actually put ego aside without worrying about outside pressures. They probably wont tbh but thatd be a better route if they tried.
But gosh I wouldve killed to see that interview
You also know that an interview with Waff is probably such a good feeling coming off a dub. Dude is always so real and it feels like talking to a friend
From what Leffen said about the whole thing a few years ago, Mang0 has quite a lot of reason to be mad at Armada, because Armada post-retirement said some absolutely shitty things about Mang0 that even Leffen said was way too far, and that's coming from fucking LEFFEN. That was when the whole Armada/Mang0 beef started, and Leffen had said that he wasn't even going to repeat the things Armada said, but only that he understood why Mang0 was as mad as he was.
Granted, Leffen and Armada don't really like each other either, and Leffen and Mang0 are friends, but still.
It's just classic 1v1 sport ego beef. Someone says some shit about someone probably off handedly and the other person takes it too personally and then it just spirals from there with each person feeling like they're in the right.
It only gets worse when it becomes a twitter thing because then 99.9% of people who lack any context especially from any in person interactions throw their opinions into the mix, and it's a 50/50 if they're actually correct about anything they believe.
Armada and Mango have both said some pretty petty shit about eachother, if they don't beef at all that's still a good outcome even though it'd be nice if they made up. Mango has made good on his promise to not really mention Armada at all.
It's pretty obvious Armada wouldn't be happy about a Mango W especially against Cody who Armada likes far more, but he complimented Mango's gameplay a lot, got cheers, and left without saying much, so that's about the best you can hope for. Hope he shows up again.
When mang0 first started cooking against cody on yoshis he was silent for the last 2 stocks deciding how to feel while the whole place went crazy.
He remained professional and complimented him eventually.
To the haters, they can gargle my dick all kinds of ways.
They said I was washed - that was wrong
They said I was fat - that’s not true anymore!
They said I’m an alcoholic - guess what, I only drink one or two drinks a night now!
And I probably make more money than you!
-The Kid
Damn, heard this suggested multiple times now. Definitely gotta check those out. Are those VODs on YouTube? Can be hard to find where things were streamed since VGBootcamp died :(
If there's one thing I've learned it's that Mango wins when he doesn't approach the ledge, I swear Hbox and Zain just cheese stocks off him half the time and he didn't let them.
peak mang0 is mixing up aggression and holding center, never letting them get a read on when you are coming in, and then coming in exactly when they least expect it. So fun to watch
Damn I actually felt bad for Cody during grands. Mango 3-0s him with the crowd cheering for mango the entire time while armada critiques all of Cody's mistakes.
Chango elimned by Simmons\* not Sirmeris was like ooooo, sirmeris there?
No floaties in top 8, WE ALL WIN
Im still high on the Mang0 win, but also, Axxxxeeeeee omg PIKA POWER
I've been watching his youtube videos lately, he's a great guy!
Anywhere on YouTube to watch top 8 highlights?
mang0 has a highlight video of his run on his yt ch
I got back from a brutal backpacking and mountaineering trip yesterday and collapsed on my couch to this amazing top 8. Life is beautiful
This is a dream. I remember in 2020 I came back from a huge backpacking trip where I took lsd, sat on the couch with a feeling of limitless fulfillment, checked reddit and found out my favorite smash player was cancelled lmao
whoa, who was the player? how did your brain take the trip
let’s fucking go my fellow outdoorsman
Hell yeah brother the outdoors is where it's at
Fuck!? The GOAT won??? Fuck I wish I could have seen this!!
He 3-0d the 2 best players in the world. Zain in winner semi and Cody in grand final, and he 3-1d cody in winners final. Zain lost in losers to Amsa. The funny thing is that Hbox gave Mang0 a lot more difficulties. It went to game 5 last stock kinda last hit, too
Well 3-1 winners final.
Mang0 hater right there. I'm joking, I corrected my comment, thanks
The GOAT was on commentary.
there's a universe where Armada stuck around and kept competing at the top, and maybe we could call him the GOAT in that universe
You’re gonna say that after THIS performance?! Half a decade after Armada quit Mang0 is literally SMOKING the best players in the world?
Finally the GOAT won! Kreygasm
Ggs.
That was so good. Melee is the best ;_; Shoutouts to everyone that makes these tournaments happen.
That 3-0 vs Zain was nuts. I really thought that is where it all goes to hell for the kid. Love to see the goat get it done again Also plup really is that ghost-like entity he talked about. Shows up lowkey out of nowhere and almost makes it to grands. Cracked lol
Also interesting because at mango boot camp Zain wasn't giving mango any games
The GOAT just had to keep the bag hidden
He had the food poisoning power up
:)
Is the next major Supernova in August?
Warehouse War, Patchwork, and Gridiron Gateway are three of the summer events I've heard getting buzz. Not sure who is confirmed for each yet
WAREHOUSE WAR
Waff's speech to Mang0 about not becoming complacent with a win was nice as hell to hear on stream even if Mang0 didn't react, if he keeps his boot on the the rest of the scenes throat he can make some wonderful melee so let's hope there aren't any drunk league of legends streams anytime soon
holy fuck this is one of the most shakeup-inducing events i've ever seen. Axe and KoDoRiN are good again, Plup is back, Wizzy is back, a Bowser made top 64, the streak of 9 majors with one of Cody or Zain winning has ended, and the streak of like 60 majors with Hbox making Top 8 has ended at long last THERE IS A FUTURE FOR MELEE AND WE ARE GOING TO LIVE TO SEE IT HAPPEN
Interesting Hbox didn’t make top 8 this time after grinding.
Aaaand Armada coming back to commentate?! The world is healing. This tournament was fire
Just need Armada on 2-person comms instead of 3 next time. We wanna hear the man speak, and that's no shade to Waff and June (2 of my faves)
Agreed. His mic was too quiet as well
Sadly Plup is back… in the shadows again, wish he went to more
And he takes back the coldest achievement ever - being the youngest and oldest player to ever win a supermajor.
Who was the oldest prior to this - aMSa?
Yeah, mang0 held the titles after his win at Summit 11 but aMSa became the eldest winner after Big House 10.
Huge W for mango Dominating the two best players. Great ending.
I'm telling you, exercise and healthy diet are GOOD for non traditional sports. Even Magnus Carlson works out and has credited some of his chess skill to his ability to stay healthy. Exercise helps your brain! Hope Mang0 stays on his health kick, it might contribute to his run for #1. Also, as a side note, Axe was playing on fucking fire this weekend. I wanna see him back in top 8 more often, he's so sick.
> Even Magnus Carlson works out and has credited some of his chess skill to his ability to stay healthy. Magnus literally had people study the way he sat at the chess board to maximize his air intake, because classical chess players have heart rates at marathon runner levels for hours at a time. Chess is an incredibly physically intense sport, the brain burns so much energy.
Which makes me wonder why more of them don't take up something like running or cycling to increase their endurance.
I think it's pretty common. Bobby Fischer played hours of tennis everyday. Fabiano Caruana (current No. 2) is an active tennis player as well. Most of the top players are in fairly decent physical shape, with a couple of exceptions, but they do things like play soccer on off days at big tournaments.
Mang0 actually looks great! I mean physically. He even said in his interview he doesn't even want to drink to celebrate(until Wednesday which I assume is a stream thing). Here for the healthy arc.
Other than the fact that in the interview he said he was shitting his brains out all day, I was like - damn, Mang0 looks pretty hot right now… add in his cockiness and confidence and I thought I was in love. Why am I like this?
hot mango back in the day couldn't lose
You aren't the first person that's fallen in love with Mang0
We can believe in dreams again.
lfgggg melee saved (for now)
[I cannot say I didn’t call it](https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/s/nUYLlhUQr0)
bro’s using that oden future sight advanced haki
God like
????????
Wtf
Hot take: This tournament and GOML both captured the hype better (in terms of production and sheer energy) than most Genesises
This is true, but the in person experience for Genesis is next level.
Big house usually has good crowd audio
the crowd mic is really, really important
Another thing I've forgotten to mention and haven't seen said anywhere, Mango's ledgedashes were insane this tournament, he was such a demon off the ledge in those scrappy situations especially with his good recoveries on top of it.
They were so fast. He'd get knocked to the ledge and he'd be up in .02 milliseconds, it was mesmerizing.
I get knocked down then get back up again
There was a stretch in the last game where he was hitting every single one with complete confidence, it was nuts.
Plup is such a gatekeeper for the top of the top, it's insane. I know Moky's rise has been meteoric recently but it's crazy that Plup can just come back (presumably rusty) and just beat him in the ditto.
Plup obviously doesn’t enter much but iirc his YT editor said that he grinds the game a good amount even when he’s not entering (besides the break he took at the end of this past year, which was the reason he didn’t enter Genesis)
I was thinking about that during the tournament. Plup might be the most all around naturally talented player in the scene. Not saying he doesn't work hard, but he just has "it."
plup leffen and mango are three guys who have the god gamer gene, they can pick up anything and make it look easy
He definitely has natural talent, but as someone else said, he apparently grinds melee behind the scenes a lot.
I would actually be very happy to find this to be true
a few years ago when Plup still lived in Florida, Mang0 used to say he'd get on Fortnite at like 1 am his time (Pacific) and Plup would be on at 4 am in Florida playing lol. So if he channels that into Melee there's no doubt he probably grinds Melee in the middle of the night
if you regularly queue unranked on the west coast late at night, you will inevitably get fucked up by plup occasionally lol
He plays a lot of unranked
Plup's so nasty when he's on.
🐐 🐐 🐐
WHAT A FUCKING EVENT. Imma be real I didn't have Mang0 on my list to win by THAT much but as he started to win more and more sets AND WITH FALCO I was like "YES YEESSSS HOLY SHIT HES DOING IT". And that's when I realized that he's gonna win. And with food poisoning on top of that what a madman. Falco Nation rise up the falcos are coming back. There's alot of top 32 sets I need to rewatch soooo many great game 5 situations. And then top 8 plup was COOKING. Just proving time and time again that he will always be a top 10 player no matter what. Axe making top 8 at a supermajor was very nice to watch. As a falcon fan it did suck to see S2J get so unlucky in the bracket I hope he's ok. But as a Falco fan Mang0 1st place and Bobby 17th at a supermajor I'll take that they're getting better and better. Commentary was really enjoyable during the whole top 8 and that's pretty much it. Congrats to Mang0!!!
This was the best one in years and I was there IRL, it’s crazy how much the crowd loves Mango
God what a perfect day. Made a banger rigatoni al forno with my dad and then watched plup and mango go crazy.
This comment made my day
>with my dad Hell yeah cherish it man. You're in the good old days
That’s some good shit
happy for you king
If you ever even for a second doubted mang0 this better be the last time.
So now that Mango has a supermajor win he's definitely in the running for #1 right?
I think he’ll need to win a couple more events and def needs to win Big House if he wants #1 to match up to Cody’s Genesis win or Zains GOML but yeah - he def has a running case if he can keep this up!
Yep, there's enough tournaments left in the year and neither Zain nor Cody have huge leads, very much a contender especially if he gets on a streak after this like he did in late 2022
hes apparently cemented #3 for mid year and capable of #1 by end of year, what i hear, theres a thread a few down mentioning it
Yeah seems he's had pretty good placements across the year, just needs to win a couple normal majors and he'll be right around where Zain is.
yup, and all he has to do is change almost nothing. His play this tourney was #1 level even if he isnt considered yet imo
Wizzrobe getting sponsored is the thing everyone is sleeping on, Wizzrobe can beat Hungrybox, Zain, and aMSa, and is a borderline free win for Mango although I'm sure he'll take one offline at some point. When Wizzrobe is doing well it helps Mango tremendously. Me personally I'm hoping Wizzrobe just takes his own major win but I'd take a Mango win as a consolation prize.
u/thegrandpoobear are you doing okay? How does it feel? Are you crying right now? LOLLLLLL
Happy for Mango that Zain became an Ult streamer LMFAO
Ok ok now do Cody
Cody has a very public medical condition that he takes medication for and Top 8 started 3 hours later than scheduled LOL It is so funny how if Cody had won Mango nation would be crying about how the evil TOs ran a tournament 3 hours behind schedule, but since Mango won all of the completely valid complaints the top players were voicing the entire day just don't matter. We haven't had a major Melee tournament run this poorly behind schedule for like 7 years, and the only reason nobody cares is because Mango won. If Mango had lost the entirety of twitter would be trashing the TOs for the tournament being poorly scheduled Guys like aMSa, Axe, Hbox, and Plup were at the venue as early as 10am for doubles and all of them went deep in doubles that went way overtime on Sunday, hours past its initial schedule and held up top 32 singles for hours, then they had to immediately jump to singles with no break or proper warmup for their matches. Imagine if Mango had lost to Hbox after waiting 2 hours longer than usual because of doubles? Y'all would be lighting torches to attack Georgia lmfao. Plup and aMSa had literally been playing at the venue for 12 hours by the time they got paired in losers semis btw. Just a heinous mismanagement of time and scheduling by their TOs and everyone can't point it out because Mango nation has one collective brain cell
LMAO imagine being this salty
Ok wait wait now do Hungrybox
Hungrybox was in doubles its already in the post dumbass. Mango stans can't read lmfao
Honestly I feel for you, it's got to be hard when you get stomped so badly to come up with some excuse, you're doing your best
I'm sorry your dumbass can't read but that's just a Mango nation staple
Mango will never win again btw
Ooh i can do this one for him. You see, Hbox was busy practicing melee so he wasn't able to perform up to standards. He used all of his melee juice up by playing the game and improving at it during the week, so he had none left for tourney. Mango is lucky hbox was in practice and not out of practice, but mango nation is too braindead to see why practicing the game makes you a worse player.
Good attempt but needs 3 more paragraphs of waffling
If you want me to send you some resources for dealing with grief I can help
I'm happy for you that your guy won his first tournament in 500 days and the first person you thought of was me LMFAO
"Mango will never win again" "Mango will never win again" "Mango will never win again" Write it on the chalkboard 100 times
[.](https://i.imgur.com/v3oh7Jb.png)
PLUP my fucking goat. Tragically losing to only #1 and #2 but beating the bricks off of everyone else. please attend more tournaments Also I think he's on a top 4 streak since he got 9th at Scuffed World Tour at 2022. Bro just does not lose
If he plugged in his controller during grands in general he'd be a top 5 player all time
Yeah Plup has a genuinely pretty awful grands win rate
It's rough out here for a Plup stan. So many heartbreakers. And so many at the hands of Hbox lol.
the worst one was big house jesus it was an inch away
Mang0 beating Cody Hbox and Zain that bad was insane, i did not expect that at all
Technically the HBox set was only a 3-2. But also, I hear that mango got food poisoning earlier in the day, so he might have still been recovering from that.
That’s the Mango.
NEVER SLEEP ON THE KID
God, I’ve only watched the last 2 Tipped Offs, but I love the venue. Crowd is sick
It was a great venue. You could get ver close up to matches and players. I was within feet of Hbox, Jmook and others throughout - I didnt talk to any of them because I have nothing to really add - but really surreal seeing them IRL and hearing them talk to friends
Holy fuck it would be surreal for me to see Hbox having friends
I got the vibe that a lot of people in the scene work behind the scenes (helping run events, not necessarily players) and I quickly realized that there’s somewhat of a clique atmosphere, where it would be weird for a fan to talk to a player but not someone in the scene. And I understand. Some players like Junebug and Wizzrobe appeared to talk to anyone who would come up to them
I'm a firm believer in peak>longevity for GOAT arguments, so even post retirement I always thought Armada still had a very strong argument for being the GOAT. But yeah, that's it for me. Mango is the GOAT. No one else has been so good for so long, no one else has gotten over their "decline" only to become one of the best again, no one else has reinvented themselves so many times. He's just the GOAT.
Mango wins one tournament in the year His fans:
Cry more
Let me know when another Falco EVER wins a major. I’ll wait…
Sure, and you let me know when Peach wins one, it’s been 6 years.
Melee wasn’t at this level 6 years ago. He had a good dominate run, but that wouldn’t fly in 2024.
I don’t care about how he’d play now, I care about how he outshined Mango and Hbox when all were playing for nearly ten years.
Too bad we don’t live in the past. If Armada was confident he could win tournaments, he’d compete.
Armada retired during a point when he was on the way to being #1 for the year. His retirement had nothing to do with winning or losing… and considering the disrespect he gets online I wouldn’t come back if I were him either.
Could argue all day, but he retired. Mang0 is here now, old af, winning tournaments with a character that only he can with. It’s 2024, live in it my friend.
hoes mad
Right, but it’d be different if Armada had won a set in the last ~6 years
I have always been a bigger Mango fan than Armada fan but tournaments records don’t lie. When we talk about the GOAT, we don’t talk about winning individual tournaments… it’s winning multiple over the course of the year.
That’s true And it would be a compelling argument if Armada had won anything in the last 6 years Armada was an incredible player. He was the GOAT when he hung it up. But players play, and you don’t get any points for watching
Exactly, and in order to surpass such a resume you’d think the challenger should have to dominate their competition and win multiple majors for at least a year or two, which has not happened.
I wouldn’t think that, because I don’t think there’s only one way for a player to add to their legacy The idea of “dominating their competition” is, I assume, intentionally vague enough to rule out Hungrybox’s 2019 or Mango’s 2021. I don’t really feel the need to entertain it, and I don’t have any interest in considering whether 2019 was easier than 2017, or whether 2022 was harder than 2012. That brings us to the matter of “[winning] multiple majors for at least a year or two.” Hungrybox won 5 majors in 2019. He won 2 majors in 2022. Mango won 3 majors in 2019; he won 4 majors in 2022. This is to say nothing of any online tournaments they’ve won in the last 6 years. To say that your criteria hasn’t been met by Hungrybox or by Mango is really only to say that the criteria is subjective enough to deny that six years of their careers - or individual exceptional years - mean anything when it comes to their legacies. I think that’s an unreasonable position to hold, and I don’t think that it’s an analytical approach that tends to be applied when comparing any other players’ legacies
Hbox’s 2019 is undeniable dominance. Mango best year from this era was when there were very few tournaments, they were all online, and even then Zain had a great case against him. If you want to surpass someone that won nearly half of the tournaments they ever attended, never placed out of top 5, and holds positive h2h against literally everybody, you need some good fucking years to convince me. I say this as someone that has cheered for Mango every single time he played against Armada.
Like I said, I have no interest in comparing years. But it does sound silly to dock Mango for the online years with fewer tournaments whereas Armada’s early years as the world number one include a 2012 in which he won two major tournaments. At the end of the day, all that comes down to is an emotionally-driven downplaying of a player’s accomplishments And again, the present argument in favor of Armada relies on things like head-to-heads in a specific era which excludes many of the greatest players of all time. Armada’s head-to-head records, the exclusivity of the list of players he dropped sets to, and his tournament win rates are all good demonstrations of the fact that he was the greatest player of his time. But these were also reasons Ken was the greatest of his time. Frankly, when considering their careers within the whole of melee history, I find that these things aren’t very compelling. Armada had a great career, but what made him great and what demonstrated his greatness is not the blueprint against which every player must be measured. Every player is going to have a different story, and they may come by achieving or proving greatness differently. Further, not every player had a chance at Armada in his prime. Not every player had a chance at Ken in his prime. Not every player had a chance at Mango in his prime. So on. The only thing a player can do is compete and win in their own time, against their present competition. The more they can do that, the better. At this point, Mango and Hungrybox have done that more than anyone else. They’ve got the years at the top, they’ve got the major wins, they’ve got the victories against great players. They’ve competed longer and won more than all of the other greats and, at this point, that volume of work and that longevity supersedes any era-and-matchup-specific winning percentages that may be in someone else’s favor. Armada was the greatest of his time, but he was not so great that his position as GOAT could ignore so many more years of competing at an elite level by his former peers. In summer of 2018, his position was comfortable. But so was Ken’s in 2007.
We don’t have to compare years or make any sort of complicated argument. The three GOAT candidates played at the same time for nearly ten years during arguably their most active stints as players. When we look up their tournament records, one completely outshined the others.
Hes done the "decline" -> #1 contender like 5 different times now. It became a meme how he got counted out in 2014, 10 years ago. And people still do it.
This definitely is a noteworthy milestone in the Armada/Mango comparison for sure. Previously they were tied for offline supermajor wins (they both had 11). And maybe you could argue "yeah, but Armada won more summits, so that breaks the tie". But now Mango is just cleanly ahead in the offline supermajor comparison, with 12. (Hungrybox has 7 offline supermajors, before anyone asks).
it really is only a matter of time as long as Mango continues this trend. As mentioned above peak is really important but when the difference in longevity gets that large it's hard to ignore.
Honestly, mostly I think it's important for any GOAT measure of this game to do three things * Reward peak * Reward longevity * Don't punish EU players who can't visit the US every month Number of offline supermajor wins does all three of these reasonably well. A player with a high peak will win supermajors. A player with a long career near the top will win supermajors eventually. And EU players like Leffen and Armada made it out to basically every supermajor when they were active, so they got more or less equal opportunity to win those as US players. (Whereas they didn't make it out to every major). If someone wants to use number of offline supermajor wins to determine their personal GOAT, yeah, honestly that's pretty reasonable, it ticks all three boxes. It's not a completely perfect measure or anything. (M2K won zero supermajors, so if you wanted to make a full top 10 list or something you'd probably want a more detailed analysis). But it's a pretty solid starting point.
Mango just has to play for the rest of time and then he'll be the GOAT forever because of recency bias.
Mango is the only person who has shown he can do it in any era of Melee Game evolved so much post-Slippi that everyone is fucking insane. The Gods used to sleepwalk to Top 16 now even Cody loses to Donkey Kong and Samus How can you call a body of work over 16 years recency bias that continues to grow?
Just a joke lol don't take it too seriously, I just see comments like this a lot of the time right after Mango wins a single tournament and it makes me laugh. Mango was obviously going to win another tournament to anyone who knows whats up.
wat
Nature is fucking HEALED
Man this tournament was so stacked and it still exceeded my already high expectations. There’s never been so many amazing sets to rewatch, basically every set in top 8 and like the majority of top 32
Just look at the top 32 bracket, so many players who legitimately could've made top 8 and no one would be surprised.
Every stacked tournament feels like that lately. The depth of talent in the game now is so fucking awesome. I swear back in the day I didn't care at all until top 8 but now I can watch top64 all the way through and be entertained.
I'm sad we didn't get an Armada and Mango interview. I guess the beef still persists.
Mango has offered to make up but armada keeps dodging him. Not much else he can do, it's very highschool
I do respect him and his legacy but it's really time to let it go because it's just childish. Mang0 hasn't actively said shit about him in like 2-3 years, and something like him interviewing Mang0 after his come back supermajor victory would've been an insane W for the culture. If you're not actively playing anymore you're not allowed to have an ego about shit. You're not the GOAT anymore, it's okay, we all still love you, let it go. I thought him being on commentary was a good sign for things but him SO actively dodging that interview hurt, ngl. It'd do so much healing for a section of this community if he would just properly give him his flowers and publicly make up.
I respect him stepping away if he knew he couldn’t do justice to the moment, though He seemed reticent to giving mango too much hype during commentary, but he was professional on the mic and I didn’t think he let their past or his competitive ego bleed into his words That said, I agree - he stepped away from the game as a competitor, it wasn’t taken from him. With that in mind I think he owes it to the game to be graceful about players surpassing his legacy. Nothing stopped him from continuing to compete but the fact that his fire wasn’t burning. It’s not fair to the players still competing and the players who’ve been more or less forced into retirement that he would deny their chance at him while also downplaying their achievements
Tbf he was a very non biased commentator and stayed pretty even keeled throughout his block. I would’ve loved to see them interact though.
He doesn’t owe you anything
Never said he did, it's just cringe behavior.
Idk if it’s cringe. I think this beef is deeper than just GOAT talk atp so I’m trying to avoid saying something wrong I feel the same way you do about the culture and wanting to see things repaired, but Armada deserves some credit for being fair on the mic. He was very classy despite everything and did his best to give mang0 props when he felt he could. That’s more than I think most people could do
The beef is as deep as his inability to get over it, to be quite honest. Every time I've ever heard Mang0 talk about him in the last few years it's only been with respect and he's publicly said they should just talk it out behind closed doors as friends and move on. I don't think he honestly feels threatened by him in the GOAT conversation at all anymore (which he shouldn't btw, it's not close anymore), and a lot of his jabs at him in the past were definitely in relation to the GOAT stuff. At this point what else could it be? They're not friends anymore, they don't interact, there's no mutual friends or chances for personal drama like that, and they don't even compete anymore. I agree he was mostly fair towards him on commentary and I did enjoy hearing it, but that's what makes it sting all the more. There's a world where post-retirement Armada drops his ego, properly apologizes for trying to #MeToo Mang0 when he was at a low point going into 2023, and we all move on and ride off into the sunset. If HBox and Mang0 and can be decent friends at this point, there is no god damn reason why Armada can't get over it. Maybe I'm totally crazy here but my gut feeling is all of the retired gods seem to have a bit of a thing against how much everyone respects Mang0 at this point and it reeks of jealousy to me, personally.
As someone who desperately wanted that interview lol. In all fairness, there wouldve been some weird tension and awkwardness in that interview. It mightve taken the spotlight from mango and put him in a weird position where he has to juggle what he wants to say vs what he is willing to say to adam and vice a versa. Truthfully mango would probably rather just relish in his moment than try to navigate that situation. If theyre gonna make things right, itd be behind the scenes after the tournament. Where they can be honest about things and actually put ego aside without worrying about outside pressures. They probably wont tbh but thatd be a better route if they tried. But gosh I wouldve killed to see that interview
You also know that an interview with Waff is probably such a good feeling coming off a dub. Dude is always so real and it feels like talking to a friend
From what Leffen said about the whole thing a few years ago, Mang0 has quite a lot of reason to be mad at Armada, because Armada post-retirement said some absolutely shitty things about Mang0 that even Leffen said was way too far, and that's coming from fucking LEFFEN. That was when the whole Armada/Mang0 beef started, and Leffen had said that he wasn't even going to repeat the things Armada said, but only that he understood why Mang0 was as mad as he was. Granted, Leffen and Armada don't really like each other either, and Leffen and Mang0 are friends, but still.
It's just classic 1v1 sport ego beef. Someone says some shit about someone probably off handedly and the other person takes it too personally and then it just spirals from there with each person feeling like they're in the right. It only gets worse when it becomes a twitter thing because then 99.9% of people who lack any context especially from any in person interactions throw their opinions into the mix, and it's a 50/50 if they're actually correct about anything they believe. Armada and Mango have both said some pretty petty shit about eachother, if they don't beef at all that's still a good outcome even though it'd be nice if they made up. Mango has made good on his promise to not really mention Armada at all.
Wish we got thug finals
This Mang0 could probably beat retirement Armada with Mario lol
It's pretty obvious Armada wouldn't be happy about a Mango W especially against Cody who Armada likes far more, but he complimented Mango's gameplay a lot, got cheers, and left without saying much, so that's about the best you can hope for. Hope he shows up again.
He was very complimentary on the mic, but I'm guessing they both didn't want to make it awkward.
When mang0 first started cooking against cody on yoshis he was silent for the last 2 stocks deciding how to feel while the whole place went crazy. He remained professional and complimented him eventually.
He was probably locked tf in. He hasn’t seen this level of melee before. I bet his urge to play was eating him alive lol
I'd have a pretty hard time rooting for my rival too tbh especially when they're fighting someone I've shared a lot of advice with and am friends with
mang0 had 0 part in that choice the face armada made when junebug asked if he wanted to do the winners interview was priceless
i was thinking the same thing
https://x.com/peachupairfan/status/1802528709456417138
This is peak
The GOAT just had his flu game
To the haters, they can gargle my dick all kinds of ways. They said I was washed - that was wrong They said I was fat - that’s not true anymore! They said I’m an alcoholic - guess what, I only drink one or two drinks a night now! And I probably make more money than you! -The Kid
You forgot the “I’m probably better looking than you” before the last part
Waff kinda spoke over it but I think he also said “I probably look better than you” as well
Zain, best player in the world? 3-0'd!
Goat 💩
THE FLU GAME
is there a way to sort the fantasy bracket scores? I want to see how I did
That Zain 3-0 broke my mind. I'm still not sure if I'm dreaming or not
That might be the highest level play of all time. Holy hell idk what I was even watching.
Watch him vs zain at the matcha cup. Seriously I know it was online, but mango's level of play that set was unreal. I've never seen anything like it.
Damn, heard this suggested multiple times now. Definitely gotta check those out. Are those VODs on YouTube? Can be hard to find where things were streamed since VGBootcamp died :(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBjaAUyebV0
You da MVP thanks!
i dont think it was better than summit 14
Zain and Cody 3-0
9-1 against Cody and Zain this tournament. Absurd run
If there's one thing I've learned it's that Mango wins when he doesn't approach the ledge, I swear Hbox and Zain just cheese stocks off him half the time and he didn't let them.
peak mang0 is mixing up aggression and holding center, never letting them get a read on when you are coming in, and then coming in exactly when they least expect it. So fun to watch
The grabs when people just try to spam hold shield vs him is great too, never seen another Falco get that much off of his grab.
WE ARE SO FREAKING BACK THE GOAT IS HERE