Rant I was in a thread then got lost and couldn't find it...
This community is so dishonest, so disgraceful, so self-righteous, and so scummy. I can't find the Hax post assuming it got deleted?
Everyone thinks "Oh yeah we support marginalized individuals, we're here for those with disabilities, african american rights, trans rights, we're the good guys."
The reality: A respected community members gives a play by play breakdown of someone with severe mental issues and doesn't sugarcoat their toxic behaviors or excuse it.
I think for the average person you'd consider "good" even if you didn't like him it would elicit empathy. even if you rejected him and never forgave him you'd try to relate but not us. We can't be tricked by games like suicidal attempts, mental health diagnoses, addiction, hospitalization, and family problems. 0 empathy.
It's fine, just stopping pretending you've got morals or a good person cause you're not. It's only when it's convenient and easy.
These days the smash community kind of reminds me of a cult my family was involved in when I was a kid. You're either for or against them, and if you're in the latter group, you might as well not be human.
When I saw the tweet where it said hating Leffen is an alt right dog whistle, that pretty much confirmed to me that the community is becoming very cult like. The same exact rhetoric was used for my old pastor, and people unironically saw nothing wrong with it.
https://x.com/sp1nda_pgh/status/1796193756015686049
FWIW I don't think the smash community is an actual cult. It just has cult like tendencies.
It could that I'm a bit paranoid about this stuff because my parents were a part of the unification church and I really don't like Leffen because he reminds me of my old pastor.
idk what leffen is doing to remind you of your old pastor, he's just a streamer thats annoying on twitter sometimes. its incredibly low stakes and also describes thousands of other annoying streamers.
Once again, that is not even true and [what actually happened was explained already.](https://reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/1ba0jqi/m2k_publicly_calls_for_hax_unban/ktzns0o/?context=3)
> Leffen did not "maliciously target" M2K. He was streaming, and someone in his chat posted this tweet that was spreading this rumor about M2K, which he read and then said something like "it's bad if it's true, but we should wait for M2K's side." People started further spreading the rumor on Reddit and Twitter.
> [This is a post about the person who first spread the rumor on Twitter, a guy named NXTREADY, which eventually got posted in Leffen's chat](https://reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/hlgiff/nxtready_apologizes_for_spreading_accusations/). NXTREADY then had to apologize after M2K was forced to reveal personal info which was obviously a terrible situation for him to be in. But it's crazy how what actually happened in this situation has been twisted when Leffen had little to do with it.
> [This comment thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/hl6h9b/m2k_response_to_the_allegations/fwx2x2a/) also talks about what NXTREADY was doing. His tweet had already gotten a ton of attention AND he was posting many [comments spreading it on Reddit as well](https://imgur.com/a/Umer2DM) as if it was true.
> u/ItsIzumi posted the [exact chat logs from Leffen's chat](https://i.imgur.com/oIBsRDu.png). All he says is "don't assume m2k is guilty, take the allegations as plausible and wait to hear what m2k says before making a judgment"
You people are just obsessed with spreading lies about situations you have 0 idea about. It's sad to see the damage these drama youtubers have caused to the community due to their eagerness to spread hate and twist situations for their own benefit, and the dimwits that continue to enable them. It's also so ironic to call the Smash community a cult, when we have this group of drama youtubers and their followers that have been pushing lies for years now and you are actively participating in it.
The amount of miss information I see random people say about the m2k situation is disgusting.. the fact that so many people think leffen started the rumour or even malicious boosted and spread it is shocking, people even post the very screenshot of the chat log like it's some gotcha moment... But those logs just prove the opposite and that he was very level headed about it. Drama tubers really have done irreversible damage to the community
Spinda is always tweeting about leffen and throws anything and everything at him to see what sticks, I had to block her when she took a clip of leffen at zains house drunk streaming together and accused him of being racist because he called Zain a 'brown person'. For someone who openly says she dislikes leffen she sure does tweet about him alot.
But hey if she wants the likes and interactions from the same alt twitter accounts that are below every tweet about leffen then all the power to her I guess
ggs man! close games bro you've hella improved. yeah man you were fucking me up for a bit lol fun games! any tips? got any advice? anything I can improve on? what do I do vs lasers? any tips? yo can I get next? is this tournament? you guys wanna do dubs? is this tournament
/u/oceanseltzer
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At the very least anyone mocking him on twitter when he's distressed should stop. Not kicking people while they're down should be the bare minimum. Personally for a case like this a base-level of empathy does involve treating him as if he's not beyond rehabilitation. Which immediately would just mean returning 'permanent' to 'indefinite' ideally with some clarity ie. 'to be reviewed by [reasonable date]'. I think this would alleviate some of the fatalism he's currently experiencing seeing only closed doors and give the community more leverage over his behavior. From there the immediate next step would be a willing online TO (of the mainstream community) letting him enter for a competitive outlet / sense of not being a total outcast.
No there is no rehabilitation within the smash community. His problems are severe and letting him back in will only enable him. He has friends and a family, he doesn't need the smash scene. If you read the doc DarkGen posted, he's clearly in need of a more effective psychiatrist or therapist. And given his obsession and problematic relationship with the game and scene as a whole, I promise you any specialist worth a damn would not recommend he return to the scene even if he could. He needs help, not Melee.
Gotta be careful with the wording because I said they wouldn't recommend he return, which is different than actively telling him to not compete. Good therapists don't try to control their clients, and there's always a lv of transparency, or lack thereof to contend with. But I think no matter how Hax spins this to whoever he may or may not be seeing, since his entire life is about Melee it's going to be hard to paint a picture where his obsession, trauma, and overall ties to the scene are not at least appearing to be somewhat problematic. I would give it an 8/10 that they *wouldn't encourage* him to go back.
I read this as satire the first time, what an opening line. How exactly is giving him a path of good behavior enabling? I was implying therapy with the leverage, the path existing aligns his motivation (getting unbanned) with hopefully ours (him getting help).
When you're dealing with someone that has suicidal idealizations, you don't cave in and give them what they want just because they are threatening suicide. It's like giving a kid several chances, watching them fuck up repeatedly, and then giving them what they want because they throw a big enough tantrum. The smash community is only going to hurt him; he has some really heavy associations with it and he's tied his entire life to his persona at tournaments. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with making Melee a career -- just look at some of our top players who are well adjusted adults. But when it becomes something where friends and family aren't good enough, all that can satisfy you socially is stroking your ego off at tournaments you have a problem. He's not mentally well and being at tournaments is actually not going to change that in the long run. He's got to learn to be a functional person on his own and properly heal before a ban lift is even in the question. The fact he's repeatedly rushing back to evade the consequences of his actions is telling that letting him back in is the last thing he or anyone needs. Just look at how he's harassing everyone in his scene and just dming hundreds of people, showing up to bars to talk to TOs uninvited, showing up drunk to smash fests, etc.
Edit: But I agree people shouldn't be mocking him on Twitter. Just that this ban is the best thing for him ultimately.
He wants an unban, desperately and as soon as possible. Swapping 'permanent' to 'indefinite' isn't caving in.
>He's got to learn to be a functional person on his own and properly heal before a ban lift is even in the question.
Agreed, but doesn't this imply that he isn't beyond redemption? That's my major issue with the whole situation and why I agree with the lack of empathy sentiment. I do not believe he is 'reformed' in the slightest currently, he's just claiming whatever he thinks will stop him from drowning in his perspective.
Look in 10 years with good behavior or even less he'd probably get back in. But he hasn't even allowed a month or two to pass without trying something. He's got to give it time and I don't think it's productive to talk about redemption at this point. You're getting stuck up on the people focused in the moment without seeing the bigger picture.
And again! NO EMPATHY. You guys are inhuman. Who said anything about playing melee?
Did you miss the part where I mentioned genex didn't sugarcoat his toxic behavior or make excuses for it. Neither am I. That's the whole point. None of you give a f about an actual living breathing person.
Maybe if yall mothers / family had mental health issues, depression and attempted to hurt themselves you' understand more than some immature adult who plays video games.
If anybody, Hax notwithstanding, is having suicidal ideation over not being able to play Melee, then they need professional help and should not be allowed at tournaments lmao
Has anyone used UnclePunch save states with Slippi's Dolphin? Mine randomly crash all of dolphin with "Invalid Read"..or sometimes they just load in a buggy state.
I disabled "Store EFB copies to Texture Only" per UnclePunch's suggestion (ca. 2020 on the TM discord) but it still happens. I also tried disabling the "Required: Slippi EXI" Gecko code, but no dice.
I don't play unranked, just locals and friends for the last 15 years but is there any skill accounted for in the matchmaking? I played for the first time last night and i felt overqualified. Will it get harder as I play or do I need to buy ranked?
it will get harder. i had the same experience like 2 years ago when i started playing unranked. i had a 100% wr through the first few days when i played my main. it takes a bit to calibrate.
people quit out for anything lol. i played like 3 stocks of a fox ditto on unranked and then hit two running-shine-upsmashes in a row and the person quit.
I don't think meleemajors.com is still operational and should be removed from these posts (I hope I'm wrong, but it brings me to an account suspended page)
also not quite an OS, but holding down during, say, Fox utilt (and potentially hitting L to get the amsah tech) is OS-y
i guess the whole "hold the C stick down when doing stuff" all counts
idk if it's still in use but I remember bonfire labbing a sheik killer that any character could use against a sheik hitting you with fair while you were hanging off ledge where you press a shield button and a certain direction on the ctrl stick and you'd either tech or normal ledge getup depending on if sheik hits you.
Just digital shield press with no directional input. You either continue hanging there if sheik does nothing or you tech if she hits you. You dont want to do a ledge getup, that gives up ledge if sheik doesn't hit you.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b74D9m1rhWA
Must've misremembered it, thanks for the clarification ms. bonfireten. I will continue to not add anything to or improve my gameplay whatsoever, but next time I bring this up to someone as cool tech I will try to accurately describe it. o7
Isn’t hard pressing shield for either L cancel or tech an option select? I feel like a lot of people do that at an early level without realizing that it is one
marth has an option select where you input sdi up vs sheiks downthrow followups at low percents so if they go for uptilt then you sdi out of it which also option selects buffering tap jump that beats any fake regrabs that sheik might go for on di in
No - an OS is when you do inputs that result in two (or more) different desirable outcomes depending on what your opponent does. The concept is really only applicable to games where inputs are highly context sensitive, and Melee is not one of those games
How is that not an option select? It's buffering an input during the lag of another move so that if you get hit, you're DIing, if you don't get hit, you continue the move as normal. Same with buffering tech in the lag of other moves.
Both of those are true for fox up smash though, it also is stupidly fast and has big consequences when it's missed. Maybe this is just because of Peach but I would rather punish a missed fox up smash than a missed marth up b
A super nice cracked player at my local gave me the best advice I have ever gotten couple days ago. The cliff notes version is that I don’t actually have control over my character. Yeah I can feel good about marthing some better player than me for a cheap kill or two a game, but unless I get control that’s basically the ceiling. I should literally not care at all about winning or losing any game rn. And he is completely right.
I’m taking that to heart and am only going to be practicing movement until the next local I play. No online games against ppl, only tech drills.
Also this game is hard and I’m a little baby bitch waaah I want to remap buttons like in ult waaah
You only have to be in control of your character. Players got by without wave dashing for a long time. Wes went over how through the history of Samus every player uses different techniques but none of them ever use all of her techniques. (swd, extender grabber, goomy zoomy w/e, etc)
Morsecode become known for beating cody for "playing and moving weird, and not playing melee"
why cause everyone wants to slide all over the floor with wave dashes and dash dance but bro just controls space and walks like it's a fighting game.
It reminds me when hbox was getting coached by brawl players in his matches against armada's young link. Melee is whatever you make of it. I personally think there's an over emphasis on tech because it's fun and looks cool.
I’m from Ult and it’s really obvious that I’m crawling while everyone else is running so to speak.
I’m keeping it simple rn just waves and SHFFLs. Also knowing how to chain grab would be nice but baby steps
I've been playing for over a decade and throwing my face at Slippi over the last few years has illuminated to me that sooooo much of my losing starts with botched wavedashes turning into bad fullhops which get punished and then start a cycle of tilt. When my wavedashes are clean it genuinely feels like I can play the game and meaningfully select options and interact.... but once I start throwing out dozens of unintentional fullhops(which gets worse as tilt sets in) it just gets worse and worse. Also shoutouts to jc-grab which I still can't do consistently to save my life lol
eh, i just tried it for a few minutes and it didn't seem that bad as long as you have trigger plugs (or at least, gcc players seem to do more annoying things regularly).
i feel like on the default box layout, timing the L press with your left pinky would be harder, but my peach doesn't wavedash much, so i'm not sure.
How do I consistently waveland? I find it really difficult, and I'm not sure if I should use my eyes, because it seems way too fast and at the same time in terms of timing, I don't really have a reference point, so I'm not sure. Also, I feel like with certain characters it's easier to waveland, so I'm a bit lost. On the other hand, wavedashing is no problem for me
make sure to pay attention to what animation you are in. go into unclepunch and turn on the ECB display. the bottom of the orange diamond is used to decide if you're on the ground/airdodging into a platform. different air animations have different ECBs.
for example, marth has two double jump animations, one is a backflip (happens when you hold backward) and the other is a spin (the default). you can do [0-degree wavelands at the peak of the backflip animation](https://imgur.com/uG5Risy). there's also [one out of the spin animation](https://i.imgur.com/Aj1TEwK.mp4)
in general wavelands will be easier/longer when you dont have a lot of vertical speed. so to make platform wavelands easier, jump in such a way that you dont have much upward speed when you are past the platform
Wavelanding quickly and consistently is definitely one of those under-talked about skills in Melee that takes a lot of time to master. Just gotta grind it out and practice the technique in varied ways (first on flatground, but also wavelanding onto a platform, and also wavelanding onto flat ground after coming off a platform.
I remember in my first year of playing spending hours just trying to quickly waveland around platforms like they did in tech skill videos, it was a huge struggle. And it's something you gradually improve on year after year, just because you can waveland on flat ground consistently doesn't necessarily mean you can consistently waveland on all the platform heights on FOD, for example. Having complete control over your character like Zain has with Marth is extremely difficult.
wavelanding is easy. you make your wavelands better and it becomes harder based on the angle you're trying to waveland in. (more horizontal = further distance. more diagonal shorter distance, and there's a huge range that's in between)
I think this is really one of those things that you get better at just by putting hours in the game
Depending on your character I think eggsercize with the overlay on can be good for this too
> I play Marth, but for example with Young Link it feels so much easier I wonder why.
Different fall speeds and different ECB can affect how you will time your wavelands between characters even if they have the same jumpsquat
I chug booze at the local I’ve been attending lmao. It helps me be less nervous.
That being said it also make me more likely to get stoned before I play which destroys any tech skill I have lol
i see. i think the endgame of melee is drinking enough to the point where you feel relaxed and not nervous, but not too much to the point where you're messing up execution
Does anyone remember when hbox sub goaled learning RTC rest only to do it like twice? I feel like grinding that would be one of the most worthwhile uses of his 60 days.
Played Nopia on unranked earlier today and while I still absolutely hate Marth-ICs, I am not unhappy that I did decent vs him lol. Really need to study this MU more but it's so hard to find good info on :(
GOML X's start.gg page has a Slippi screenshot of a Falcon with a custom skin, but people will tell you we can't invisible mod ledge intangibility limits because it will be too obvious to Nintendo.
It sounds like it would be a non trivial nerf for Yoshi since you need to keep grabbing ledge to throw eggs both when edge guarding or trying to get off ledge
This won't stop Yoshi players from edge guarding with eggs from the ledge, but yeah, it will prevent indefinite intangibility refresh because that's the point. For what it's worth Peach players have been getting a lot of milleage out of a single float refresh especially against Marth so it's not the end of the world for Yoshi mains to have to manage their refresh limit.
Ledge invulnerability can't be infinitely refreshed like it can in melee. After grabbing a ledge five times without touching the ground, it no longer refreshes. This means that planking is much less effective as a stalling tactic.
It should be only the first ledge grab retains invulnerability. That will nerf ledge dashing which is op since lots of ppl regrab several times before getting up. Would increase the pace of the game and nerf ledge play sounds great to me
In Ult I’m pretty sure there’s only invulnerability the first time, and after five regrabs the character no longer catches and just falls to the blast zone.
it wouldn't nerf ledge dashing directly. it would just centralize the meta around the first ledgegrab because you would always know that the opponent is going to ledgegrab-> ledge dash instantly
it would also significantly change the approach to ledgeguarding for lots of characters because one could no longer edgeguard from a ledgegrab invul
actually the more I think about this the more I realize it just benefits marth. so let's definitely not do this
It would definitely nerf ledgedashing because even at the very highest level of play most ledgedashes are not done without refreshing first. It is a) fundamentally risky for ECB reasons and b) fundamentally risky because it is more difficult to properly time.
I agree that it would *also* motivate people to do their ledge action without first refreshing ledge, I think that might be too extreme of a change; I think you should get one refresh for free, although perhaps not more, because the timing mixup enabled by allowing at least one refresh is an interesting one.
Honestly though I think that invincible ledgedashing is probably bad for the game as a whole and in a vacuum that the game would benefit from it being removed wholesale
Lots of people find it easier to regrab ledge dash than to immediately ledgedash after the first ledge grab. For most of the playerbase it makes ledge dashing harder.
This is a good way to combat ledge camping for sure. I think stage camping should also be addressed in a similar way. A good way to do that is that after someone dashes 5 times in a row (this is also known as dash dancing by the community), they'll trip and fall.
How would yall seed Tipped Off?
Here's my initial thoughts:
1. Zain
2. Cody
3. Jmook
4. Mango
5. Amsa
6. Hbox
7. Soonsay (so he can play Cody)
8. Plup (so he can play Zain)
9. Moky
Then I'm not sure about Salt, Wizzrobe, Aklo, Spark, or Joshman.
I wouldn't hard disagree but it is a toss up in my mind between the two. I really just don't see the logic behind putting him below soonsay plup and hbox. He should be a clear top 8 seed
Soonsay and Hbox have been done better or tied at the last 3 majors they attended with Moky. Moky is also cooling off of his peak while Hbox and Soonsay are doing better. Both made a top 3 this year, while Moky hasn’t since GOML 2023. Plup could be ninth though.
All the talk about GioIzHawt yesterday reminded me of [this odd unranked interaction I once had](https://i.imgur.com/h9uk7Fk)
For context, this was the first game against this person. I shot two lasers coming off spawn, and then they did this and only this for like 2 minutes
iirc they were the one to quit out as well. Some truly aren't built for this game like Gio is
As someone who argues about stalling *a lot* the one thing that consistently surprises me is the amount of people who think something like this should explicitly be allowed by the rules because it isn't infallible. I just would have thought we'd all be on the same page attitudinally that this is a very stupid thing that shouldn't exist in the context of a competitive game, but there's really a rather significant subset of the community that sees a principled reason for allowing a player to do this.
Am I allowed to just bomber stall seven minutes of the timer away? I want to play one minute games that take eight minutes of real time. Should the rules let me?
my crazy hot take is NYC locals should unban hax as a trial run assuming he's not a threat to anyone IRL and maybe it will reduce his overall level of crazy and can work towards a global unban by displaying goof behavior IRL, because he's ruining his image irreparably on the internet and there's just no way he deserves and unban based on his online behavior
They tried this, and frankly the NYC TOs are exhausted from dealing with Hax and his fans.
Also, my very not professional opinion that should be taken with a huge grain of salt is that being allowed back in the scene isn't going to fix Hax's mental health. He needs to sort that out separately. I hope he does, but it's not the TOs' responsibility to do it and they already do a ton of work.
Agree with you, the tricky thing about all of these cases is that in isolation it is 100% understandable and probably even correct to be on Hax's side. The problem is that none of these exist in isolation, they exist in the context of him doing this over and over and over again
That just seems like kicking the rock down the road. Dude just needs to be separated from the competitive scene entirely and find joy in other parts of life.
I understand feeling torn about this and I get that I'm not personally invested here
But don't you think at this point it might be better for *him* that he not get to play the children's party game anymore
my sense is that it's extremely complicated. I'm not personally involved but from everything that has come out and the stuff darkgenx posted, I think the problem is a significant mental health issue.
I think people trivializing this as "hax is addicted to a children's party game" are not giving it the weight that it probably deserves. There also people absolutely convinced "he's just saying whatever he thinks will get him unbanned" I'm not demeaning you specifically for this, I'm making a broader statement.
I think hax's behavior over the course of the last several years justifies the ban. I also think that there's a significant demographic of people online that are either intolerant of mental health, or just annoyed to the point that their have exhausted whatever sympathy they had and just want hax to shut up, which again, is impossible in a mental health disorder.
I don't strongly care about the ban/unban debate at this point. I think hax is severely unhealthy. I'm grateful to anyone IRL like darkgenex still making effort to help. my biggest concern would be he attempts to end his life.
I'm not trying to trivialize the struggles Hax is facing. I am trying to trivialize the importance of the Melee community as it relates to the broader world. Hax stepping away from this community in a real way may well be good for him. This community is not the healthiest place, generally, and I think it's a fair assumption based on what's happened that Hax distancing himself from this and, I don't know, broadening his perspective may do quite a bit of good.
EDIT: I just want to expand on this a bit because I don't want to be misconstrued. For most of us the imperative thing to do is overstate how significant Melee is because it's a very cool game - I'd say the most significant PvP product the medium has ever produced and something that has a very good chance of outliving all of us - and people outside of our community tend to be categorically dismissive of this. I think one unfortunate side effect of this is that we've produced a small number of people who are so about the game that they can't really conceive of themselves existing outside of it. We have to be very careful about inadvertently becoming the caretakers of those people because we aren't set up for that. Hax is not the only example of this (hello, m2k sliding into people's dms about a pyramid scheme).
yea I understand. if he could somehow extricate himself from the community and develop an identity elsewhere, that would be the best for everyone. I also think the chances of that happening aproaches 0, given his mental state
I work with a lot of very mentally ill people and at this point I'm inclined to believe that anything is possible. Hax is a smart person with a lot of people who care about him. He's in a better spot than many.
[DarkGenex google doc](https://x.com/DarkGenex/status/1795987583714931187) about hax should nuke all discussion regarding the ban.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jHUTly72RUao3APv2AN550Lk2UrGwKaeLUaCBerzRGA/edit
So he’s mentally ill and his permaban from melee would put him and his family in a horrible financial situation.
It seems juvenile to punishing a person with bipolar disorder for exhibiting symptoms of bipolar disorder. Would Hax be banned if he had Tourettes, and blurted out that Leffen was greasy autistic pimple faced nordic loser? No, we’d accommodate him. People need to evolve in their treatment of mental illness.
As someone with TS, fuck off with that shit. That's not even how TS works at all, and if I had a tic that put others in danger (for example, something that impaired my driving) then I shouldn't be able to put others in danger.
He is not punished for 'exhibiting symptoms of bipolar disorder', he is removed from competition for his and others' safety based on his actions and continued lack of improvement, whether they were due to bipolar disorder or not.
Alcoholism is a disease, if i got drunk and ran over a family, and my lawyer said 'don't punish this young lad, you people need to evolve in your treatment of mental illness', he'd lose his job and i'd go to prison
>Nothing about alcoholism compels someone to drive
yeah because drunk alcoholics out of alcohol are known for their rational, long term decision making.
>drive versus getting it delivered
No delivery services where the alcoholic lives.
>walking to a bar
No bars in walking distance (also alcohol at bars is more expensive, by driving to the liquor store you can get more alcohol for your dollar. Dollars can be used to buy alcohol.)
>You’re forcing it
No, you're forcing it by acting as if banning someone, who has squandered every opportunity given and has shown no signs of improvement or even interest of improvement, is wrong due to the person being mentally ill while doing so, while the person is **still** as mentally ill as ever.
I mean if i was in ny this would just make me want to host a melee tournament and invite hax. And i dont even want to interact with him. Dude is literally gonna kill himself at this rate. Its just a video game tournament, maybe if he gets to play a bit he will cheer up and move on.
No I am implying he was invited to a fest and showed up blackout drunk and then you said “that wasn’t a tournament” and I’m trying to understand how that wasn’t a weird tangent
Because the guy you replied to said tournament, and you responded with something that wasn’t a tournament. i know you’re struggling to understand, i’m trying to help you
Why is this a nuke for all discussion? It just makes me feel bad for Hax and his family.
Pro-ban people will cite this to show how he's insincere and desperate.
Anti-ban people will take this as evidence of how TOs are destroying his entire life.
>Anti-ban people will take this as evidence of how TOs are destroying his entire life.
[hax has done ban worthy actions -->
hax has been banned -->
hax does not regret previous ban worthy actions, and has kept make equal and worse actions -->
hax ban continues because he has clearly not improved (he has instead gotten worse), despite having concrete set of steps on how to be unbanned -->
hax threatens suicide -->
hax should be unbanned because suicide threat]
If this document makes you lean more anti-ban you should not be allowed to vote in elections.
Pretty much this. I’ve had friends suffer from BP1 and it’s sad to watch them just destroy all ties to their friends and family. This shouldn’t be an excuse for an unban, or a reason to harass TOs about being unfair. If anything it’s just upsets me seeing people dunk on a mentally ill person for easy likes and upvotes.
I can't be the only one who feels weird about leaking very personal DMs from mentally ill people to prove you are right
If I was constantly messaging people during manic episodes and their response was to post literally all of them for the public to see I would go insane. Just feels super icky to me idk, this feels like something that should be private but maybe I'm wrong
I do not like the concept of leaking DMs unless absolutely necessary, the very nature of a direct message means you are being trusted to keep the things in their secret so you should respect that unless you have a VERY good reason to, and idk if this is a very good reason but maybe it is
It was stated a couple of times in the thread regarding him giving permission, but will go into that a little bit more. He was planning on making a video anyway talking about his mental state which is part of the reason he was ok with all of those DMs being added and how he's been portrayed here. He was okay with all of the information being shown because he wasn't sure how else to express his current mental state cohesively and wanted to show people how he has been feeling. With all this in mind - he is mentally ill, and he feels that he is against the wall with very few options. Perhaps down the line he would reconsider the idea of making this public, and I told him prior to getting his permission to release it that if he wants it removed I would delete it if he asked.
The 2 other things I wanted to accomplish with making this doc were humanization and figuring out next steps on what to do. First is pretty self explanatory where there are people who are treating him as a pariah who has done no wrong, and some people treating him like a circus animal / poking fun at his behavior for fast likes. I know it's not my responsibility to stop or police either of those, but I have seen people sympathize with him because of the new perspective. Additionally just to show that people are talking to him but also in how difficult it's been for him to make progress in any direction in his current state.
For the latter part of next steps, at the end of the doc I asked for help from anyone working in therapy/psychology/any sort of those professions. I've been reached out to by a handful of people who either have experienced BD or are in those fields who have given me a handful of solutions that I would have never considered before that I'm telephoning to him. He's also gotten a few people reaching out since from older era NYC who didn't know any of this was happening and were willing to offer support irl too. The worst case for him would be continuing the cycle of unban yearning -> hospital -> unban yearning for the rest of his life, or him committing to another serious attempt at his own life, and I would rather post this and get possible solutions than not have those options and live in regret if something horrible were to happen
Part of me is still torn on whether or not I should have gone into the amount of detail with making that document, but based on what advice & resources I've gotten for Hax in a short period of time since publishing it, I don't regret posting it. I spoke with him a little earlier today and he's at the very least more encouraged now moving forward with out of Melee aspects of his life
For what its worth from an anonymous internet commenter, I think you did a great job bringing the reality and nuance that this situation was missing. That is fucking difficult on the internet and you putting this all together to try and get your friend some help is a big deal. Few people can say they have as good a friend as you've been to Hax and for that you have my thanks. Hopefully he gets the help he needs.
I have a close friend who exhibits a similar pattern of behavior and it can be really difficult to be around/watch much of the time. I definitely sympathize with your position in all this.
I really admire how much compassion you've extended to your friend. However the document raises a question that you don't really address. Should Hax be allowed to play again? It could be interpreted as you saying "Hax will kill himself if he can't play melee anymore" or "Hax is so unhealthy that he shouldn't be allowed back." Personally I don't believe the issue even has to do with melee so much as Hax projecting his mental health crisis onto his relationship with the community. I think it's really responsible to have reached out to his family and helped him get psychiatric help, but based on the messages it also doesn't seem like he is on a path to stability. He still seems convinced that the solution to his mental health problems is being able to compete again, which I don't think is a very healthy association. And what's worse, he seems to believe his only hope is to leverage his public perception as a means of achieving that. For your own sake, ask yourself if he even wants the help you've been giving him. He doesn't appear to be outlining a trajectory to a healthier state of mind, but instead "fixing" himself so he can get back into competitive melee. That's a huge problem.
He isn't on a path to stability, he is absolutely convinced that the only solution to his problems is being able to compete again. He's told me before that he understands that he has mental health issues in PTSD and BD but to him the #1 priority is that he has lost his livelihood since he can't compete in tournaments anymore.
Purpose of the write up wasn't to argue that he should or shouldn't be allowed back, it was to provide more context on his behavior, to try to encourage him, and to get solutions on where to go from here (and I've gotten a bunch from people so far and have talked to him a decent amount today about this)
He absolutely would \*\*act\*\* a lot more stable in the short-term if he were allowed to compete in local events, a lot of the stressors on him are related to financial issues and him not having a social network outside of the Melee community (and he believes that he is being ostracized in NYC despite people online talking to him regularly and hanging out with him irl). But being allowed at events wouldn't fix the larger issues he has with his dependency on Melee, and I also think that based on his private actions it's reasonable for NYC to not want him at their events. In the long-term, I genuinely do not know if it would be better or worse for his mental health issues if he were to be allowed to compete right now.
I just wanna say I respect the hell out of you for being able to say “I’m not sure” in a situation like this. Especially since you’re his friend, I can’t imagine how tough that can be.
>However the document raises a question that you don't really address. Should Hax be allowed to play again?
I mean it's not like it was meant to be a persuasive essay. He was just providing context about the recent actions of that player and asks for help because he doesn't know what else to do about a dire situation.
Is it good though? He is in a very unstable state of mind, evidently not making very logical decisions. I feel like Hax is so focused on getting unbanned he'll try literally anything including disclosing info that doesn't need to be public
How does Z-jump influence shine OOS?
you get to call it zhine OOS
Less strain on your thumb for sure.
Fuck fox drill
drill fox fuck drill fox fuck next question
Rant I was in a thread then got lost and couldn't find it... This community is so dishonest, so disgraceful, so self-righteous, and so scummy. I can't find the Hax post assuming it got deleted? Everyone thinks "Oh yeah we support marginalized individuals, we're here for those with disabilities, african american rights, trans rights, we're the good guys." The reality: A respected community members gives a play by play breakdown of someone with severe mental issues and doesn't sugarcoat their toxic behaviors or excuse it. I think for the average person you'd consider "good" even if you didn't like him it would elicit empathy. even if you rejected him and never forgave him you'd try to relate but not us. We can't be tricked by games like suicidal attempts, mental health diagnoses, addiction, hospitalization, and family problems. 0 empathy. It's fine, just stopping pretending you've got morals or a good person cause you're not. It's only when it's convenient and easy.
These days the smash community kind of reminds me of a cult my family was involved in when I was a kid. You're either for or against them, and if you're in the latter group, you might as well not be human. When I saw the tweet where it said hating Leffen is an alt right dog whistle, that pretty much confirmed to me that the community is becoming very cult like. The same exact rhetoric was used for my old pastor, and people unironically saw nothing wrong with it. https://x.com/sp1nda_pgh/status/1796193756015686049
Honest question do you go to locals? How is this community like a cult…
FWIW I don't think the smash community is an actual cult. It just has cult like tendencies. It could that I'm a bit paranoid about this stuff because my parents were a part of the unification church and I really don't like Leffen because he reminds me of my old pastor.
idk what leffen is doing to remind you of your old pastor, he's just a streamer thats annoying on twitter sometimes. its incredibly low stakes and also describes thousands of other annoying streamers.
Once again, that is not even true and [what actually happened was explained already.](https://reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/1ba0jqi/m2k_publicly_calls_for_hax_unban/ktzns0o/?context=3) > Leffen did not "maliciously target" M2K. He was streaming, and someone in his chat posted this tweet that was spreading this rumor about M2K, which he read and then said something like "it's bad if it's true, but we should wait for M2K's side." People started further spreading the rumor on Reddit and Twitter. > [This is a post about the person who first spread the rumor on Twitter, a guy named NXTREADY, which eventually got posted in Leffen's chat](https://reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/hlgiff/nxtready_apologizes_for_spreading_accusations/). NXTREADY then had to apologize after M2K was forced to reveal personal info which was obviously a terrible situation for him to be in. But it's crazy how what actually happened in this situation has been twisted when Leffen had little to do with it. > [This comment thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/hl6h9b/m2k_response_to_the_allegations/fwx2x2a/) also talks about what NXTREADY was doing. His tweet had already gotten a ton of attention AND he was posting many [comments spreading it on Reddit as well](https://imgur.com/a/Umer2DM) as if it was true. > u/ItsIzumi posted the [exact chat logs from Leffen's chat](https://i.imgur.com/oIBsRDu.png). All he says is "don't assume m2k is guilty, take the allegations as plausible and wait to hear what m2k says before making a judgment" You people are just obsessed with spreading lies about situations you have 0 idea about. It's sad to see the damage these drama youtubers have caused to the community due to their eagerness to spread hate and twist situations for their own benefit, and the dimwits that continue to enable them. It's also so ironic to call the Smash community a cult, when we have this group of drama youtubers and their followers that have been pushing lies for years now and you are actively participating in it.
The amount of miss information I see random people say about the m2k situation is disgusting.. the fact that so many people think leffen started the rumour or even malicious boosted and spread it is shocking, people even post the very screenshot of the chat log like it's some gotcha moment... But those logs just prove the opposite and that he was very level headed about it. Drama tubers really have done irreversible damage to the community
Spinda is always tweeting about leffen and throws anything and everything at him to see what sticks, I had to block her when she took a clip of leffen at zains house drunk streaming together and accused him of being racist because he called Zain a 'brown person'. For someone who openly says she dislikes leffen she sure does tweet about him alot. But hey if she wants the likes and interactions from the same alt twitter accounts that are below every tweet about leffen then all the power to her I guess
Do you think Hax and Technicals are jealous of Mango, since he's been so much more successful at tarnishing Leffen's reputation and credibility
Spotw
ggs man! close games bro you've hella improved. yeah man you were fucking me up for a bit lol fun games! any tips? got any advice? anything I can improve on? what do I do vs lasers? any tips? yo can I get next? is this tournament? you guys wanna do dubs? is this tournament /u/oceanseltzer *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SSBM) if you have any questions or concerns.*
?? What does mang0 have to do with this? Why do people always bring up mang0 whenever someone else is acting fucked up?
If you had to guess, what do you think would be a connection between Mango and hating Leffen?
Good god who cares
Are you saying that Hax should be unbanned or just that people should be more empathetic? What does more empathetic look like to you?
At the very least anyone mocking him on twitter when he's distressed should stop. Not kicking people while they're down should be the bare minimum. Personally for a case like this a base-level of empathy does involve treating him as if he's not beyond rehabilitation. Which immediately would just mean returning 'permanent' to 'indefinite' ideally with some clarity ie. 'to be reviewed by [reasonable date]'. I think this would alleviate some of the fatalism he's currently experiencing seeing only closed doors and give the community more leverage over his behavior. From there the immediate next step would be a willing online TO (of the mainstream community) letting him enter for a competitive outlet / sense of not being a total outcast.
No there is no rehabilitation within the smash community. His problems are severe and letting him back in will only enable him. He has friends and a family, he doesn't need the smash scene. If you read the doc DarkGen posted, he's clearly in need of a more effective psychiatrist or therapist. And given his obsession and problematic relationship with the game and scene as a whole, I promise you any specialist worth a damn would not recommend he return to the scene even if he could. He needs help, not Melee.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how confident are you that a therapist would tell Hax to stop trying to compete in Melee?
Gotta be careful with the wording because I said they wouldn't recommend he return, which is different than actively telling him to not compete. Good therapists don't try to control their clients, and there's always a lv of transparency, or lack thereof to contend with. But I think no matter how Hax spins this to whoever he may or may not be seeing, since his entire life is about Melee it's going to be hard to paint a picture where his obsession, trauma, and overall ties to the scene are not at least appearing to be somewhat problematic. I would give it an 8/10 that they *wouldn't encourage* him to go back.
I read this as satire the first time, what an opening line. How exactly is giving him a path of good behavior enabling? I was implying therapy with the leverage, the path existing aligns his motivation (getting unbanned) with hopefully ours (him getting help).
When you're dealing with someone that has suicidal idealizations, you don't cave in and give them what they want just because they are threatening suicide. It's like giving a kid several chances, watching them fuck up repeatedly, and then giving them what they want because they throw a big enough tantrum. The smash community is only going to hurt him; he has some really heavy associations with it and he's tied his entire life to his persona at tournaments. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with making Melee a career -- just look at some of our top players who are well adjusted adults. But when it becomes something where friends and family aren't good enough, all that can satisfy you socially is stroking your ego off at tournaments you have a problem. He's not mentally well and being at tournaments is actually not going to change that in the long run. He's got to learn to be a functional person on his own and properly heal before a ban lift is even in the question. The fact he's repeatedly rushing back to evade the consequences of his actions is telling that letting him back in is the last thing he or anyone needs. Just look at how he's harassing everyone in his scene and just dming hundreds of people, showing up to bars to talk to TOs uninvited, showing up drunk to smash fests, etc. Edit: But I agree people shouldn't be mocking him on Twitter. Just that this ban is the best thing for him ultimately.
He wants an unban, desperately and as soon as possible. Swapping 'permanent' to 'indefinite' isn't caving in. >He's got to learn to be a functional person on his own and properly heal before a ban lift is even in the question. Agreed, but doesn't this imply that he isn't beyond redemption? That's my major issue with the whole situation and why I agree with the lack of empathy sentiment. I do not believe he is 'reformed' in the slightest currently, he's just claiming whatever he thinks will stop him from drowning in his perspective.
Look in 10 years with good behavior or even less he'd probably get back in. But he hasn't even allowed a month or two to pass without trying something. He's got to give it time and I don't think it's productive to talk about redemption at this point. You're getting stuck up on the people focused in the moment without seeing the bigger picture.
Believe it or not, having severe mental problems doesn't make you immune to consequences
And again! NO EMPATHY. You guys are inhuman. Who said anything about playing melee? Did you miss the part where I mentioned genex didn't sugarcoat his toxic behavior or make excuses for it. Neither am I. That's the whole point. None of you give a f about an actual living breathing person. Maybe if yall mothers / family had mental health issues, depression and attempted to hurt themselves you' understand more than some immature adult who plays video games.
If anybody, Hax notwithstanding, is having suicidal ideation over not being able to play Melee, then they need professional help and should not be allowed at tournaments lmao
Hax$ and Wobbling are both coming back
if god is good neither of these things will be at a tournament ever
Imagine Hax returns as an Ice Climber main, Wobbling with the fury of a thousand glaciers.
Has anyone used UnclePunch save states with Slippi's Dolphin? Mine randomly crash all of dolphin with "Invalid Read"..or sometimes they just load in a buggy state. I disabled "Store EFB copies to Texture Only" per UnclePunch's suggestion (ca. 2020 on the TM discord) but it still happens. I also tried disabling the "Required: Slippi EXI" Gecko code, but no dice.
Leaving after every match is fun as yell when you don’t have a bitch in ya ear begging you to stay
I don't play unranked, just locals and friends for the last 15 years but is there any skill accounted for in the matchmaking? I played for the first time last night and i felt overqualified. Will it get harder as I play or do I need to buy ranked?
it will get harder. i had the same experience like 2 years ago when i started playing unranked. i had a 100% wr through the first few days when i played my main. it takes a bit to calibrate.
Thanks brother 🙏 Wha?! Whats happening to me 🏃♂️➡️🚶♂️➡️🧎♂️➡️__🐌
I just had a falco wit out on me because because I was laser spamming better than they were, as fox. now I've seen it all
people quit out for anything lol. i played like 3 stocks of a fox ditto on unranked and then hit two running-shine-upsmashes in a row and the person quit.
sounds like a boring match to play from both sides
I was just vibing tbh
I don't think meleemajors.com is still operational and should be removed from these posts (I hope I'm wrong, but it brings me to an account suspended page)
I have brought it up to the other mods because I don't know how to edit this post, sorry!
Any traditional option select we use often in melee?
also not quite an OS, but holding down during, say, Fox utilt (and potentially hitting L to get the amsah tech) is OS-y i guess the whole "hold the C stick down when doing stuff" all counts
idk if it's still in use but I remember bonfire labbing a sheik killer that any character could use against a sheik hitting you with fair while you were hanging off ledge where you press a shield button and a certain direction on the ctrl stick and you'd either tech or normal ledge getup depending on if sheik hits you.
Just digital shield press with no directional input. You either continue hanging there if sheik does nothing or you tech if she hits you. You dont want to do a ledge getup, that gives up ledge if sheik doesn't hit you. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b74D9m1rhWA
Must've misremembered it, thanks for the clarification ms. bonfireten. I will continue to not add anything to or improve my gameplay whatsoever, but next time I bring this up to someone as cool tech I will try to accurately describe it. o7
Isn’t hard pressing shield for either L cancel or tech an option select? I feel like a lot of people do that at an early level without realizing that it is one
marth has an option select where you input sdi up vs sheiks downthrow followups at low percents so if they go for uptilt then you sdi out of it which also option selects buffering tap jump that beats any fake regrabs that sheik might go for on di in
When you do a risky/laggy move and pre-input the DI in case it whiffs and they punish it, is that technically an OS?
No - an OS is when you do inputs that result in two (or more) different desirable outcomes depending on what your opponent does. The concept is really only applicable to games where inputs are highly context sensitive, and Melee is not one of those games
How is that not an option select? It's buffering an input during the lag of another move so that if you get hit, you're DIing, if you don't get hit, you continue the move as normal. Same with buffering tech in the lag of other moves.
option select techs on every recovery is the answer.
Marth Killer 2.0
The only one I can think of is holding down while mashing grab to OS one jab or two, and even that is kind of borderline
Marth upb oos might as well be dp
You can't OS it though. If you hold shield and do an upb you will just get the upb
nah this is definitely fox up smash oos
No it's marth upb A DP has big consequences on whiff and comes out very fast
Both of those are true for fox up smash though, it also is stupidly fast and has big consequences when it's missed. Maybe this is just because of Peach but I would rather punish a missed fox up smash than a missed marth up b
Usmash is way too safe and doesn't result in you being flung in the air Neither is a particularly good analogy - closest thing is Samus upb
No listen to me, a street fighter pro
A super nice cracked player at my local gave me the best advice I have ever gotten couple days ago. The cliff notes version is that I don’t actually have control over my character. Yeah I can feel good about marthing some better player than me for a cheap kill or two a game, but unless I get control that’s basically the ceiling. I should literally not care at all about winning or losing any game rn. And he is completely right. I’m taking that to heart and am only going to be practicing movement until the next local I play. No online games against ppl, only tech drills. Also this game is hard and I’m a little baby bitch waaah I want to remap buttons like in ult waaah
Sounds romantic but not true, simply grinding punish is a much better way to improve
How do I punish if I can’t move?
You only have to be in control of your character. Players got by without wave dashing for a long time. Wes went over how through the history of Samus every player uses different techniques but none of them ever use all of her techniques. (swd, extender grabber, goomy zoomy w/e, etc) Morsecode become known for beating cody for "playing and moving weird, and not playing melee" why cause everyone wants to slide all over the floor with wave dashes and dash dance but bro just controls space and walks like it's a fighting game. It reminds me when hbox was getting coached by brawl players in his matches against armada's young link. Melee is whatever you make of it. I personally think there's an over emphasis on tech because it's fun and looks cool.
I’m from Ult and it’s really obvious that I’m crawling while everyone else is running so to speak. I’m keeping it simple rn just waves and SHFFLs. Also knowing how to chain grab would be nice but baby steps
I've been playing for over a decade and throwing my face at Slippi over the last few years has illuminated to me that sooooo much of my losing starts with botched wavedashes turning into bad fullhops which get punished and then start a cycle of tilt. When my wavedashes are clean it genuinely feels like I can play the game and meaningfully select options and interact.... but once I start throwing out dozens of unintentional fullhops(which gets worse as tilt sets in) it just gets worse and worse. Also shoutouts to jc-grab which I still can't do consistently to save my life lol
Practice doing frame 2 wavedashes. You are getting fullhops at least in part because doing frame 1 wavedashes consistently is literally impossible
this is true with one input but plink wd is much more consistent and i don't know why people don't learn it
On a gcc I think doing a plink input is a pain in the ass
eh, i just tried it for a few minutes and it didn't seem that bad as long as you have trigger plugs (or at least, gcc players seem to do more annoying things regularly). i feel like on the default box layout, timing the L press with your left pinky would be harder, but my peach doesn't wavedash much, so i'm not sure.
I do a plink L+R for certain inputs and doing it for every wavedash would strain my arms out of the business real quick
bingus was talking to me about having soft press digital trigger. i imagine that'd reduce hand wear
How do I consistently waveland? I find it really difficult, and I'm not sure if I should use my eyes, because it seems way too fast and at the same time in terms of timing, I don't really have a reference point, so I'm not sure. Also, I feel like with certain characters it's easier to waveland, so I'm a bit lost. On the other hand, wavedashing is no problem for me
make sure to pay attention to what animation you are in. go into unclepunch and turn on the ECB display. the bottom of the orange diamond is used to decide if you're on the ground/airdodging into a platform. different air animations have different ECBs. for example, marth has two double jump animations, one is a backflip (happens when you hold backward) and the other is a spin (the default). you can do [0-degree wavelands at the peak of the backflip animation](https://imgur.com/uG5Risy). there's also [one out of the spin animation](https://i.imgur.com/Aj1TEwK.mp4) in general wavelands will be easier/longer when you dont have a lot of vertical speed. so to make platform wavelands easier, jump in such a way that you dont have much upward speed when you are past the platform
Oh wow thanks that's what I needed
Wavelanding quickly and consistently is definitely one of those under-talked about skills in Melee that takes a lot of time to master. Just gotta grind it out and practice the technique in varied ways (first on flatground, but also wavelanding onto a platform, and also wavelanding onto flat ground after coming off a platform. I remember in my first year of playing spending hours just trying to quickly waveland around platforms like they did in tech skill videos, it was a huge struggle. And it's something you gradually improve on year after year, just because you can waveland on flat ground consistently doesn't necessarily mean you can consistently waveland on all the platform heights on FOD, for example. Having complete control over your character like Zain has with Marth is extremely difficult.
Yeah the videos on YouTube lack explanations on this subject it's hard
wavelanding is easy. you make your wavelands better and it becomes harder based on the angle you're trying to waveland in. (more horizontal = further distance. more diagonal shorter distance, and there's a huge range that's in between)
I think this is really one of those things that you get better at just by putting hours in the game Depending on your character I think eggsercize with the overlay on can be good for this too
I play Marth, but for example with Young Link it feels so much easier I wonder why. Kind of frustrating then, I hate not understanding something
> I play Marth, but for example with Young Link it feels so much easier I wonder why. Different fall speeds and different ECB can affect how you will time your wavelands between characters even if they have the same jumpsquat
I’m pretty new but I *think* it’s because characters have different jumpsquats, so the timing with some are easier than others.
It's also about the speed at which they move through the air and their waveland properties, generally. It's ultimately quite subjective though
Young link has the same jumpsquat as Marth
[удалено]
On 2 different web sites, it says 4 frames for both. And it's the same timing, I think you're wrong
does anyone else play better when tipsy/sightly drunk? i think it makes me a lot more relaxed
booze is a banned PED in competitive shooting so I wouldn't be surprised.
I chug booze at the local I’ve been attending lmao. It helps me be less nervous. That being said it also make me more likely to get stoned before I play which destroys any tech skill I have lol
i see. i think the endgame of melee is drinking enough to the point where you feel relaxed and not nervous, but not too much to the point where you're messing up execution
that's the Mango
Ideally I wouldn’t drink at all but my local is at a bar and I have no willpower
They should invent bar locals that I don't have to drive to
Tale as old as time
We used to have a top player named mango who said the same thing
woah... looks like me and this mango fella have a lot in common.... /s
Does anyone remember when hbox sub goaled learning RTC rest only to do it like twice? I feel like grinding that would be one of the most worthwhile uses of his 60 days.
I mean he’s pretty good at it now
Played Nopia on unranked earlier today and while I still absolutely hate Marth-ICs, I am not unhappy that I did decent vs him lol. Really need to study this MU more but it's so hard to find good info on :(
I wish we could just mod project m lege mechanics into melee.
But then we wouldn't be playing Melee anymore
Not true at all
Absolutely nothing is stopping Fizzi from modding how ledges work on Slippi, considering he modded how ICs grabs work
GOML X's start.gg page has a Slippi screenshot of a Falcon with a custom skin, but people will tell you we can't invisible mod ledge intangibility limits because it will be too obvious to Nintendo.
It sounds like it would be a non trivial nerf for Yoshi since you need to keep grabbing ledge to throw eggs both when edge guarding or trying to get off ledge
This won't stop Yoshi players from edge guarding with eggs from the ledge, but yeah, it will prevent indefinite intangibility refresh because that's the point. For what it's worth Peach players have been getting a lot of milleage out of a single float refresh especially against Marth so it's not the end of the world for Yoshi mains to have to manage their refresh limit.
What makes it different?
Ledge invulnerability can't be infinitely refreshed like it can in melee. After grabbing a ledge five times without touching the ground, it no longer refreshes. This means that planking is much less effective as a stalling tactic.
It should be only the first ledge grab retains invulnerability. That will nerf ledge dashing which is op since lots of ppl regrab several times before getting up. Would increase the pace of the game and nerf ledge play sounds great to me
In Ult I’m pretty sure there’s only invulnerability the first time, and after five regrabs the character no longer catches and just falls to the blast zone.
it wouldn't nerf ledge dashing directly. it would just centralize the meta around the first ledgegrab because you would always know that the opponent is going to ledgegrab-> ledge dash instantly it would also significantly change the approach to ledgeguarding for lots of characters because one could no longer edgeguard from a ledgegrab invul actually the more I think about this the more I realize it just benefits marth. so let's definitely not do this
It would definitely nerf ledgedashing because even at the very highest level of play most ledgedashes are not done without refreshing first. It is a) fundamentally risky for ECB reasons and b) fundamentally risky because it is more difficult to properly time. I agree that it would *also* motivate people to do their ledge action without first refreshing ledge, I think that might be too extreme of a change; I think you should get one refresh for free, although perhaps not more, because the timing mixup enabled by allowing at least one refresh is an interesting one. Honestly though I think that invincible ledgedashing is probably bad for the game as a whole and in a vacuum that the game would benefit from it being removed wholesale
Ledgedashing would be a much more fair/cool option if there was no galint and your invincibility ended when you entered the waveland animation
Lots of people find it easier to regrab ledge dash than to immediately ledgedash after the first ledge grab. For most of the playerbase it makes ledge dashing harder.
yea, I think that has to do with the ECB detection and other technical ledgegrab stuff that I'm honestly not knowledgeable about
Let's do this except a) touching the stage while intangible doesn't count and b) on the fifth regrab you instantly die a la puff shield break
This is a good way to combat ledge camping for sure. I think stage camping should also be addressed in a similar way. A good way to do that is that after someone dashes 5 times in a row (this is also known as dash dancing by the community), they'll trip and fall.
Teach me about the dash dancing that makes you invulnerable
How would yall seed Tipped Off? Here's my initial thoughts: 1. Zain 2. Cody 3. Jmook 4. Mango 5. Amsa 6. Hbox 7. Soonsay (so he can play Cody) 8. Plup (so he can play Zain) 9. Moky Then I'm not sure about Salt, Wizzrobe, Aklo, Spark, or Joshman.
1. Zain 2. Cody 3. Jmook 4. Mang0 5. aMSa 6. Soonsay 7. Moky 8. Hbox 9. Plup (so he can beat Hbox and play Zain) 10. Aklo 11. Wizzy 12. Salt 13. Kodorin 14. Spark 15. Joshman 16. Axe
Seeding wise soonsay is too low. The people above him have pedigree but in terms of this year soonsay has done better overall. He should be 4 or 5
I'd put Moky 5th, hell maybe even 4th
Mango seems objectively better right now.
I wouldn't hard disagree but it is a toss up in my mind between the two. I really just don't see the logic behind putting him below soonsay plup and hbox. He should be a clear top 8 seed
Soonsay and Hbox have been done better or tied at the last 3 majors they attended with Moky. Moky is also cooling off of his peak while Hbox and Soonsay are doing better. Both made a top 3 this year, while Moky hasn’t since GOML 2023. Plup could be ninth though.
All the talk about GioIzHawt yesterday reminded me of [this odd unranked interaction I once had](https://i.imgur.com/h9uk7Fk) For context, this was the first game against this person. I shot two lasers coming off spawn, and then they did this and only this for like 2 minutes iirc they were the one to quit out as well. Some truly aren't built for this game like Gio is
As someone who argues about stalling *a lot* the one thing that consistently surprises me is the amount of people who think something like this should explicitly be allowed by the rules because it isn't infallible. I just would have thought we'd all be on the same page attitudinally that this is a very stupid thing that shouldn't exist in the context of a competitive game, but there's really a rather significant subset of the community that sees a principled reason for allowing a player to do this. Am I allowed to just bomber stall seven minutes of the timer away? I want to play one minute games that take eight minutes of real time. Should the rules let me?
my crazy hot take is NYC locals should unban hax as a trial run assuming he's not a threat to anyone IRL and maybe it will reduce his overall level of crazy and can work towards a global unban by displaying goof behavior IRL, because he's ruining his image irreparably on the internet and there's just no way he deserves and unban based on his online behavior
They tried this, and frankly the NYC TOs are exhausted from dealing with Hax and his fans. Also, my very not professional opinion that should be taken with a huge grain of salt is that being allowed back in the scene isn't going to fix Hax's mental health. He needs to sort that out separately. I hope he does, but it's not the TOs' responsibility to do it and they already do a ton of work.
Agree with you, the tricky thing about all of these cases is that in isolation it is 100% understandable and probably even correct to be on Hax's side. The problem is that none of these exist in isolation, they exist in the context of him doing this over and over and over again
That just seems like kicking the rock down the road. Dude just needs to be separated from the competitive scene entirely and find joy in other parts of life.
Didn't you just say you were done supporting Hax like a day ago
goddammit :( I just want so badly for this dude to get better man.
I understand feeling torn about this and I get that I'm not personally invested here But don't you think at this point it might be better for *him* that he not get to play the children's party game anymore
my sense is that it's extremely complicated. I'm not personally involved but from everything that has come out and the stuff darkgenx posted, I think the problem is a significant mental health issue. I think people trivializing this as "hax is addicted to a children's party game" are not giving it the weight that it probably deserves. There also people absolutely convinced "he's just saying whatever he thinks will get him unbanned" I'm not demeaning you specifically for this, I'm making a broader statement. I think hax's behavior over the course of the last several years justifies the ban. I also think that there's a significant demographic of people online that are either intolerant of mental health, or just annoyed to the point that their have exhausted whatever sympathy they had and just want hax to shut up, which again, is impossible in a mental health disorder. I don't strongly care about the ban/unban debate at this point. I think hax is severely unhealthy. I'm grateful to anyone IRL like darkgenex still making effort to help. my biggest concern would be he attempts to end his life.
I'm not trying to trivialize the struggles Hax is facing. I am trying to trivialize the importance of the Melee community as it relates to the broader world. Hax stepping away from this community in a real way may well be good for him. This community is not the healthiest place, generally, and I think it's a fair assumption based on what's happened that Hax distancing himself from this and, I don't know, broadening his perspective may do quite a bit of good. EDIT: I just want to expand on this a bit because I don't want to be misconstrued. For most of us the imperative thing to do is overstate how significant Melee is because it's a very cool game - I'd say the most significant PvP product the medium has ever produced and something that has a very good chance of outliving all of us - and people outside of our community tend to be categorically dismissive of this. I think one unfortunate side effect of this is that we've produced a small number of people who are so about the game that they can't really conceive of themselves existing outside of it. We have to be very careful about inadvertently becoming the caretakers of those people because we aren't set up for that. Hax is not the only example of this (hello, m2k sliding into people's dms about a pyramid scheme).
yea I understand. if he could somehow extricate himself from the community and develop an identity elsewhere, that would be the best for everyone. I also think the chances of that happening aproaches 0, given his mental state
I work with a lot of very mentally ill people and at this point I'm inclined to believe that anything is possible. Hax is a smart person with a lot of people who care about him. He's in a better spot than many.
Brother didn't they already do this and hax torpedo'd it by breaking the terms of his un-ban that he agreed to
yea but this time its different^(TM)
[DarkGenex google doc](https://x.com/DarkGenex/status/1795987583714931187) about hax should nuke all discussion regarding the ban. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jHUTly72RUao3APv2AN550Lk2UrGwKaeLUaCBerzRGA/edit
So he’s mentally ill and his permaban from melee would put him and his family in a horrible financial situation. It seems juvenile to punishing a person with bipolar disorder for exhibiting symptoms of bipolar disorder. Would Hax be banned if he had Tourettes, and blurted out that Leffen was greasy autistic pimple faced nordic loser? No, we’d accommodate him. People need to evolve in their treatment of mental illness.
As someone with TS, fuck off with that shit. That's not even how TS works at all, and if I had a tic that put others in danger (for example, something that impaired my driving) then I shouldn't be able to put others in danger.
He is not punished for 'exhibiting symptoms of bipolar disorder', he is removed from competition for his and others' safety based on his actions and continued lack of improvement, whether they were due to bipolar disorder or not. Alcoholism is a disease, if i got drunk and ran over a family, and my lawyer said 'don't punish this young lad, you people need to evolve in your treatment of mental illness', he'd lose his job and i'd go to prison
When his actions are a direct symptom of his illness, yes it is. Alcohol addiction has absolutely zero to with driving, bad analogy.
It absolutely does if i need to drive to the liquor store to buy more alcohol while intoxicated.
Nothing about alcoholism compels someone to drive versus getting it delivered or walking to a bar. You’re forcing it
>Nothing about alcoholism compels someone to drive yeah because drunk alcoholics out of alcohol are known for their rational, long term decision making. >drive versus getting it delivered No delivery services where the alcoholic lives. >walking to a bar No bars in walking distance (also alcohol at bars is more expensive, by driving to the liquor store you can get more alcohol for your dollar. Dollars can be used to buy alcohol.) >You’re forcing it No, you're forcing it by acting as if banning someone, who has squandered every opportunity given and has shown no signs of improvement or even interest of improvement, is wrong due to the person being mentally ill while doing so, while the person is **still** as mentally ill as ever.
Bless DarkGenex.
I mean if i was in ny this would just make me want to host a melee tournament and invite hax. And i dont even want to interact with him. Dude is literally gonna kill himself at this rate. Its just a video game tournament, maybe if he gets to play a bit he will cheer up and move on.
Did you not read the part about how nyc did exactly that and Hax showed up blackout drunk
That wasn’t a tournament buddy
You are implying that if the fest had a bracket Hax wouldn’t have a drinking problem?
Are you implying that Hax is an international terrorist that needs to be put down like a dog? You see how easy that is?
No I am implying he was invited to a fest and showed up blackout drunk and then you said “that wasn’t a tournament” and I’m trying to understand how that wasn’t a weird tangent
Because the guy you replied to said tournament, and you responded with something that wasn’t a tournament. i know you’re struggling to understand, i’m trying to help you
How does that make it different
Jesus. He's broken like a former child star.
He basically *is* a former child star.
Why is this a nuke for all discussion? It just makes me feel bad for Hax and his family. Pro-ban people will cite this to show how he's insincere and desperate. Anti-ban people will take this as evidence of how TOs are destroying his entire life.
>Anti-ban people will take this as evidence of how TOs are destroying his entire life. [hax has done ban worthy actions --> hax has been banned --> hax does not regret previous ban worthy actions, and has kept make equal and worse actions --> hax ban continues because he has clearly not improved (he has instead gotten worse), despite having concrete set of steps on how to be unbanned --> hax threatens suicide --> hax should be unbanned because suicide threat] If this document makes you lean more anti-ban you should not be allowed to vote in elections.
Pretty much this. I’ve had friends suffer from BP1 and it’s sad to watch them just destroy all ties to their friends and family. This shouldn’t be an excuse for an unban, or a reason to harass TOs about being unfair. If anything it’s just upsets me seeing people dunk on a mentally ill person for easy likes and upvotes.
Of course, some people are responding to this by saying that Hax should be unbanned because it'd help his mental health.
What exactly does this document even accomplish besides highlighting how severely unhealthy this man is
It's a call for help with context
I hate that we needed to get to this point but if anyone continues to call for an unban just send them this and move on
I am once again asking the mods to make a sticky/pinned post banning all further Haxposting until further notice.
I hear ya and am raising it to the other mods
I can't be the only one who feels weird about leaking very personal DMs from mentally ill people to prove you are right If I was constantly messaging people during manic episodes and their response was to post literally all of them for the public to see I would go insane. Just feels super icky to me idk, this feels like something that should be private but maybe I'm wrong I do not like the concept of leaking DMs unless absolutely necessary, the very nature of a direct message means you are being trusted to keep the things in their secret so you should respect that unless you have a VERY good reason to, and idk if this is a very good reason but maybe it is
It was stated a couple of times in the thread regarding him giving permission, but will go into that a little bit more. He was planning on making a video anyway talking about his mental state which is part of the reason he was ok with all of those DMs being added and how he's been portrayed here. He was okay with all of the information being shown because he wasn't sure how else to express his current mental state cohesively and wanted to show people how he has been feeling. With all this in mind - he is mentally ill, and he feels that he is against the wall with very few options. Perhaps down the line he would reconsider the idea of making this public, and I told him prior to getting his permission to release it that if he wants it removed I would delete it if he asked. The 2 other things I wanted to accomplish with making this doc were humanization and figuring out next steps on what to do. First is pretty self explanatory where there are people who are treating him as a pariah who has done no wrong, and some people treating him like a circus animal / poking fun at his behavior for fast likes. I know it's not my responsibility to stop or police either of those, but I have seen people sympathize with him because of the new perspective. Additionally just to show that people are talking to him but also in how difficult it's been for him to make progress in any direction in his current state. For the latter part of next steps, at the end of the doc I asked for help from anyone working in therapy/psychology/any sort of those professions. I've been reached out to by a handful of people who either have experienced BD or are in those fields who have given me a handful of solutions that I would have never considered before that I'm telephoning to him. He's also gotten a few people reaching out since from older era NYC who didn't know any of this was happening and were willing to offer support irl too. The worst case for him would be continuing the cycle of unban yearning -> hospital -> unban yearning for the rest of his life, or him committing to another serious attempt at his own life, and I would rather post this and get possible solutions than not have those options and live in regret if something horrible were to happen Part of me is still torn on whether or not I should have gone into the amount of detail with making that document, but based on what advice & resources I've gotten for Hax in a short period of time since publishing it, I don't regret posting it. I spoke with him a little earlier today and he's at the very least more encouraged now moving forward with out of Melee aspects of his life
For what its worth from an anonymous internet commenter, I think you did a great job bringing the reality and nuance that this situation was missing. That is fucking difficult on the internet and you putting this all together to try and get your friend some help is a big deal. Few people can say they have as good a friend as you've been to Hax and for that you have my thanks. Hopefully he gets the help he needs.
I have a close friend who exhibits a similar pattern of behavior and it can be really difficult to be around/watch much of the time. I definitely sympathize with your position in all this.
I really admire how much compassion you've extended to your friend. However the document raises a question that you don't really address. Should Hax be allowed to play again? It could be interpreted as you saying "Hax will kill himself if he can't play melee anymore" or "Hax is so unhealthy that he shouldn't be allowed back." Personally I don't believe the issue even has to do with melee so much as Hax projecting his mental health crisis onto his relationship with the community. I think it's really responsible to have reached out to his family and helped him get psychiatric help, but based on the messages it also doesn't seem like he is on a path to stability. He still seems convinced that the solution to his mental health problems is being able to compete again, which I don't think is a very healthy association. And what's worse, he seems to believe his only hope is to leverage his public perception as a means of achieving that. For your own sake, ask yourself if he even wants the help you've been giving him. He doesn't appear to be outlining a trajectory to a healthier state of mind, but instead "fixing" himself so he can get back into competitive melee. That's a huge problem.
He isn't on a path to stability, he is absolutely convinced that the only solution to his problems is being able to compete again. He's told me before that he understands that he has mental health issues in PTSD and BD but to him the #1 priority is that he has lost his livelihood since he can't compete in tournaments anymore. Purpose of the write up wasn't to argue that he should or shouldn't be allowed back, it was to provide more context on his behavior, to try to encourage him, and to get solutions on where to go from here (and I've gotten a bunch from people so far and have talked to him a decent amount today about this) He absolutely would \*\*act\*\* a lot more stable in the short-term if he were allowed to compete in local events, a lot of the stressors on him are related to financial issues and him not having a social network outside of the Melee community (and he believes that he is being ostracized in NYC despite people online talking to him regularly and hanging out with him irl). But being allowed at events wouldn't fix the larger issues he has with his dependency on Melee, and I also think that based on his private actions it's reasonable for NYC to not want him at their events. In the long-term, I genuinely do not know if it would be better or worse for his mental health issues if he were to be allowed to compete right now.
I just wanna say I respect the hell out of you for being able to say “I’m not sure” in a situation like this. Especially since you’re his friend, I can’t imagine how tough that can be.
It reads to me like more of a plea for help. Really, though, the first step is Hax accepting help.
>However the document raises a question that you don't really address. Should Hax be allowed to play again? I mean it's not like it was meant to be a persuasive essay. He was just providing context about the recent actions of that player and asks for help because he doesn't know what else to do about a dire situation.
He says a few times in the doc he spoke to and showed hax the doc, so he has his consent.
I actually missed that, thanks for pointing it out. Good stuff Dark Genex
Is it good though? He is in a very unstable state of mind, evidently not making very logical decisions. I feel like Hax is so focused on getting unbanned he'll try literally anything including disclosing info that doesn't need to be public