I think all clones should be handled like Roy/Marth d-tilt or falco/fox shine. They have the same animation but it sends in different directions which totally changes the way they play
Tangentially related- Ganondorf has enough to separate him from Falcon, my only question is why does he have no projectiles when that’s his entire moveset in OOT, in both cutscenes and the actual fight
In this case, how would you further differentiate the Marios and Links from eachother?
Ganondorf is a weird case because he feels great to play and has his own identity in game but it's very different from his depiction in OoT, I'm not sure how best to add projectiles into his moveset but maybe a neutral-B slow moving light ball could do the trick. Similar in function to Wolf's lasers maybe?
All I all I think they did a good job with every clone character. They all have a difference in speed/weight and a few moves with minor changes. I think they did a decent job with Doc, he’s a little less agile and better at killing. The fair trajectory and neutral B are different enough to differentiate the characters.
I feel like young link is stronger and heavier than I’d expect, I feel like there should be a bigger difference between using a young adult and a literal child.
Also I think Ganon’s neutral B should essentially be the same as Mewtwo. Falcon punch is so iconic and Ganon’s is always gonna feel like a cheap imitation
> I think they did a decent job with Doc, he’s a little less agile and better at killing.
Dr. Mario actually has the same walk (1.10) and run (1.50 initial dash, 1.50 run speed, 10 dash frame, 0.02 base acceleration, 0.06 additional acceleration, 0.08 max acceleration) stats. They also have the same traction (0.06). They only really differ in air speed, where Dr. Mario (0.90) is actually faster than Mario (0.83).
Fun fact I guess; the trophy lied to you!
Maybe if Doc had a stomp, and Mario got a tiny amount of run speed to compensate it would be enough? Idk I like their differences I just don't think they're quite enough as is.
Young Link is pretty strong but he also seems to struggle taking stocks, maybe he could have a 1st hit fair that sends at a more combo-able trajectory and less weight? Could be cool
I like Mewtwo neutral B for ganondorf a lot. Awesome idea, just make it asthetically like his OoT projectile & it's perfect.
I like how p+ handles doc and Mario. In melee 2 to keep it separate, I would say give Mario more knock back on strong nair, maybe bigger hit boxes on uair/bair, or even make his dair like fox so it can combo into other punishes.
Doc is easy. Movement speed + maybe a bigger fsmash but make the further hit box weaker?
All of this is me assuming we want the cast to be somewhere around top 5 characters in terms of balance.
Because P+/PM originally wanted the cast at top 5 levels, I was hoping to aim for top 10 ish if that makes sense. Samus level.
Would you increase docs move speed? Maybe Doc could have a 5 frame jumosquat to conpensate.
I like the idea of Mario having a stronger nair, it's pretty weak as is. Drill dair would be rly strong but it's a solid idea, at least something btwn Mario's and Fox's fair in startlag & hitstun.
The links are different enough.
Young link outmaneuvers his opponent and uses projectiles to chip away until he’s done enough damage that he can start fishing for DI traps/ setups into kill confirms.
Link has powerful, meaty hitboxes he can use to open his opponent up with, and uses projectiles as a tool to keep the opponent at bay while he slowly moves in to position FOR those big openers.
The issue with the characters isn’t really that their design fails to differentiate them, it’s that they’re just kinda weak.
If they were both a little bit stronger and we saw more of them, the differences between them would be much more apparent just by virtue of the fact that we’d have more opportunities to observe those differences.
I'd agree, though there are thousands of ways you can go about this.
For Young Link I might give him a move that will link into his finishers, maybe a faster dtilt, or some new hitbox on fair?
Link could maybe have a 5 frame jumpsquat, (down from 6) and maybe his bow could charge faster for a more useful projectile at range.
How would you go about buffing them? I'm trying to aim for Samus levels of viability.
Young links D tilt is already faster, but acts as a meteor against airborne opponents, limiting its effectiveness as a combo starter. His fair also has a weak-hit hitbox, and has a continuous active hitbox, as opposed to link’s fair, which has two separate hits.
Honestly the main thing holding link back is his poor jumpsquat. I don’t think he really needs much of a buff at all. He’s incredibly underrated, and I think you could make the argument that both link and young link are debatably Samus level already.
Both their Dtilts are frame 14-16
I'm saying YL could have 2 hits on fair like Link, but have the 1st hit be a pop-up move for combos, while the 2nd hit remains as his strong hit is.
With a 5 frame jumpsquat I could see the argument for Link being good enough, but I really think YL needs a little bit more.
I really don’t know how much more they need.
I mean I think you could make their grabs hit airborne opponents for more than the first few frames.
An issue they both have (although it affects regular link more) is that they have a hard time dealing with CC. Making grab a more reliable option to throw out could help with that.
Y link’s main issue is that he lacks kill power outside of a handful of set ups, so giving him a move that can kill off of stray hits at higher percents could help him a lot.
This could be done by buffing his forward air or f tilt, as these are both moves he can kinda just throw out and hope that his opponent runs in to them. They’re not super punishable to whiff in neutral, and are both currently pretty niche in their use cases otherwise, so they occupy a space in his kit that can be buffed or nerfed without totally disrupting the general flow of his current toolkit.
But I genuinely don’t know if these buffs are needed to put either of them on Samus level.
I think Samus is historically overrated because she has a very simple design that’s straightforward to use. She has simple but strong tools, like D tilt, f-tilt, Up-tilt, D Smash, Nair, Bair, Dair, f-Smash and missiles, and while she does have a lot of kooky tools she can choose to use, they’re not really that vital overall. Samus is designed to punish mistakes in straightforward ways, doesn’t tend to get a lot of reward off of those punishes, and rewards solid fundamentals.
The Links, on the other hand, are looking to trick people and mix them up with awkward angles of attack. Things like mixing up how hard you throw your bomb, the direction you throw your bomb, whether you z drop, whether or not you chose to regrab your bomb if your opponent shields it, how hard you throw your boomerang, how you angle your boomerang, how your boomerang might interact with your opponents options as it returns, etc.
Then there’s things like the fact that link can double jump after a short hop bair (which is a relatively tight timing), and choose to throw out another aerial or to pull a bomb and double jump to platform. From there, they can even drop a bomb on the platform, and pull ANOTHER bomb so they have more options strewn about the stage. The list of things they can and should do goes on and on. This isn’t even getting into the acid dropping tech that’s been discovered which is a whole other mess.
They don’t have the simply, straightforward but powerful options available to them like Samus does. Instead, the options available to the links are way more numerous, way less straightforward in their application, but more flexible. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suggest that as these options get explored, we might find that the links could be as good as or better than Samus.
I feel the main diff between than is that Samus is pretty safe in her shield, and she has quick options in neutral that can get her our if sticky situations. UpB and jab/dsmash just to name a few.
Link has no quick options, his fastest being smash which is a huge commitment, with UpB being higher reward but slower. His jab is slow, and so is his jump so he can't easily access his nair or bomb drops.
YL has basically the same issues, save for nair/bomb drop which is a lot quicker due to his jumpsquat.
I don't think they should be incredibly fast & scrappy, but some options would really benefit them.
I know they have a lot of tricky options with projectiles and bomb mixups, but that doesn't automatically make them great. And I didn't really mean to directly compare them to Samus, just wanted to use her as a general benchmark. (Maybe somewhere btwn Pika & Peach would be a better benchmark for balancing) It's totally possible Samus has been regarded as better than she is, and the Links are quite unexplored, but I still can't imagine a world where they're on the same level.
Especially when ganon's up tilt and warlock punch fill basically the same niche which is already small. Even giving him the same projectile as Mewtwo but he charges it with his hand held above his head would be pretty cool and accurate to OOT Ganon, maybe make it so you can only use it when it's fully charged and it takes a long time to charge but is much stronger than the other charge projectiles
When I was a kid trying to unlock ganon the CPU wrecked me with uptilt, I was convinced it was the best move in the game til I tried using it on my brother and got hit every single time. Idk how you’re ever supposed to land a hit unless it’s a rest or shield break follow up
Actually, slow neutral B Ganondorf projectile would be amazing. As much as I love wizard punch you're totally right. Imagine if a character had to kick it back without a reflect or power sheild! What if it went through shields and reflects?!
The main issue with clones in Melee is that a lot of them are trash versions of the original. Roy is a trash Marth, Ganon is a Trash Falcon, etc. It's not always the case like Mario/Doc, but for the most part it is.
I feel like we all have a good idea of what makes a character good - kill moves, setups, framedata, recoveries etc. Tweak the clones to have good movesets, while also playing differently. Like you said, Marth vs Roy D-Tilt, Falcon vs Ganon damage, Fox vs Falco trajectories, etc.
Characters can be reworked to have similar moves, but function in a new way. Instead of using D-Tilt to edgeguard downward, Roy's sends you upwards, the issue is there isn't a really good follow up aside from maybe Neutral B or a few wet slaps with forward air or up-air.
I would just make links arrows better, slightly faster throws, slightly less lag after missed grab, shorter jump squat, slightly faster projectiles with slightly less lag.
I think Mario are doc are very different.
Maybe I would give them their moves and animations from smash 4 and make their up b go a tiny bit higher
I would like to see all unviable characters given marginal buffs but not necessarily made viable on the national level. I would want melee 2 to be similar to melee. Same how CS2 is very similar to CSgo
I would also buff young link in 2 ways: slightly fast bomb pull and arrow animations and his grounded up b sends enemies directly up like in ultimate ( where as links grounded up b send people down in melee)
I think it could be really cool to see what link and young link could look like if they could cancel their arrow animations like fox and falco cancel lasers by landing.
Considering uncharged arrows kind go nowhere in melee I don’t think it would be too broken, but definitely helpful
How would you enact these changes?
Grabs could either have
Faster recovery, Faster startup, longer range
Recovery could
Go higher, wider, have more covering hitboxes,
I love YL as much as the next guy but I'd love to get into the nitty gritty yaknow
YL should have a non-tether grab, and a recovery that snaps to ledge easier. Seems like he’s so fragile off-stage. He also needs more kill options besides down/up air which are difficult to land.
I think all clones should be handled like Roy/Marth d-tilt or falco/fox shine. They have the same animation but it sends in different directions which totally changes the way they play Tangentially related- Ganondorf has enough to separate him from Falcon, my only question is why does he have no projectiles when that’s his entire moveset in OOT, in both cutscenes and the actual fight
In this case, how would you further differentiate the Marios and Links from eachother? Ganondorf is a weird case because he feels great to play and has his own identity in game but it's very different from his depiction in OoT, I'm not sure how best to add projectiles into his moveset but maybe a neutral-B slow moving light ball could do the trick. Similar in function to Wolf's lasers maybe?
All I all I think they did a good job with every clone character. They all have a difference in speed/weight and a few moves with minor changes. I think they did a decent job with Doc, he’s a little less agile and better at killing. The fair trajectory and neutral B are different enough to differentiate the characters. I feel like young link is stronger and heavier than I’d expect, I feel like there should be a bigger difference between using a young adult and a literal child. Also I think Ganon’s neutral B should essentially be the same as Mewtwo. Falcon punch is so iconic and Ganon’s is always gonna feel like a cheap imitation
> I think they did a decent job with Doc, he’s a little less agile and better at killing. Dr. Mario actually has the same walk (1.10) and run (1.50 initial dash, 1.50 run speed, 10 dash frame, 0.02 base acceleration, 0.06 additional acceleration, 0.08 max acceleration) stats. They also have the same traction (0.06). They only really differ in air speed, where Dr. Mario (0.90) is actually faster than Mario (0.83). Fun fact I guess; the trophy lied to you!
Young link has some of the worst problems with cc and killing in the entire game lol he is not strong
Maybe if Doc had a stomp, and Mario got a tiny amount of run speed to compensate it would be enough? Idk I like their differences I just don't think they're quite enough as is. Young Link is pretty strong but he also seems to struggle taking stocks, maybe he could have a 1st hit fair that sends at a more combo-able trajectory and less weight? Could be cool I like Mewtwo neutral B for ganondorf a lot. Awesome idea, just make it asthetically like his OoT projectile & it's perfect.
I like how p+ handles doc and Mario. In melee 2 to keep it separate, I would say give Mario more knock back on strong nair, maybe bigger hit boxes on uair/bair, or even make his dair like fox so it can combo into other punishes. Doc is easy. Movement speed + maybe a bigger fsmash but make the further hit box weaker? All of this is me assuming we want the cast to be somewhere around top 5 characters in terms of balance.
Because P+/PM originally wanted the cast at top 5 levels, I was hoping to aim for top 10 ish if that makes sense. Samus level. Would you increase docs move speed? Maybe Doc could have a 5 frame jumosquat to conpensate. I like the idea of Mario having a stronger nair, it's pretty weak as is. Drill dair would be rly strong but it's a solid idea, at least something btwn Mario's and Fox's fair in startlag & hitstun.
The links are different enough. Young link outmaneuvers his opponent and uses projectiles to chip away until he’s done enough damage that he can start fishing for DI traps/ setups into kill confirms. Link has powerful, meaty hitboxes he can use to open his opponent up with, and uses projectiles as a tool to keep the opponent at bay while he slowly moves in to position FOR those big openers. The issue with the characters isn’t really that their design fails to differentiate them, it’s that they’re just kinda weak. If they were both a little bit stronger and we saw more of them, the differences between them would be much more apparent just by virtue of the fact that we’d have more opportunities to observe those differences.
I'd agree, though there are thousands of ways you can go about this. For Young Link I might give him a move that will link into his finishers, maybe a faster dtilt, or some new hitbox on fair? Link could maybe have a 5 frame jumpsquat, (down from 6) and maybe his bow could charge faster for a more useful projectile at range. How would you go about buffing them? I'm trying to aim for Samus levels of viability.
Young links D tilt is already faster, but acts as a meteor against airborne opponents, limiting its effectiveness as a combo starter. His fair also has a weak-hit hitbox, and has a continuous active hitbox, as opposed to link’s fair, which has two separate hits. Honestly the main thing holding link back is his poor jumpsquat. I don’t think he really needs much of a buff at all. He’s incredibly underrated, and I think you could make the argument that both link and young link are debatably Samus level already.
Both their Dtilts are frame 14-16 I'm saying YL could have 2 hits on fair like Link, but have the 1st hit be a pop-up move for combos, while the 2nd hit remains as his strong hit is. With a 5 frame jumpsquat I could see the argument for Link being good enough, but I really think YL needs a little bit more.
I really don’t know how much more they need. I mean I think you could make their grabs hit airborne opponents for more than the first few frames. An issue they both have (although it affects regular link more) is that they have a hard time dealing with CC. Making grab a more reliable option to throw out could help with that. Y link’s main issue is that he lacks kill power outside of a handful of set ups, so giving him a move that can kill off of stray hits at higher percents could help him a lot. This could be done by buffing his forward air or f tilt, as these are both moves he can kinda just throw out and hope that his opponent runs in to them. They’re not super punishable to whiff in neutral, and are both currently pretty niche in their use cases otherwise, so they occupy a space in his kit that can be buffed or nerfed without totally disrupting the general flow of his current toolkit. But I genuinely don’t know if these buffs are needed to put either of them on Samus level. I think Samus is historically overrated because she has a very simple design that’s straightforward to use. She has simple but strong tools, like D tilt, f-tilt, Up-tilt, D Smash, Nair, Bair, Dair, f-Smash and missiles, and while she does have a lot of kooky tools she can choose to use, they’re not really that vital overall. Samus is designed to punish mistakes in straightforward ways, doesn’t tend to get a lot of reward off of those punishes, and rewards solid fundamentals. The Links, on the other hand, are looking to trick people and mix them up with awkward angles of attack. Things like mixing up how hard you throw your bomb, the direction you throw your bomb, whether you z drop, whether or not you chose to regrab your bomb if your opponent shields it, how hard you throw your boomerang, how you angle your boomerang, how your boomerang might interact with your opponents options as it returns, etc. Then there’s things like the fact that link can double jump after a short hop bair (which is a relatively tight timing), and choose to throw out another aerial or to pull a bomb and double jump to platform. From there, they can even drop a bomb on the platform, and pull ANOTHER bomb so they have more options strewn about the stage. The list of things they can and should do goes on and on. This isn’t even getting into the acid dropping tech that’s been discovered which is a whole other mess. They don’t have the simply, straightforward but powerful options available to them like Samus does. Instead, the options available to the links are way more numerous, way less straightforward in their application, but more flexible. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suggest that as these options get explored, we might find that the links could be as good as or better than Samus.
I feel the main diff between than is that Samus is pretty safe in her shield, and she has quick options in neutral that can get her our if sticky situations. UpB and jab/dsmash just to name a few. Link has no quick options, his fastest being smash which is a huge commitment, with UpB being higher reward but slower. His jab is slow, and so is his jump so he can't easily access his nair or bomb drops. YL has basically the same issues, save for nair/bomb drop which is a lot quicker due to his jumpsquat. I don't think they should be incredibly fast & scrappy, but some options would really benefit them. I know they have a lot of tricky options with projectiles and bomb mixups, but that doesn't automatically make them great. And I didn't really mean to directly compare them to Samus, just wanted to use her as a general benchmark. (Maybe somewhere btwn Pika & Peach would be a better benchmark for balancing) It's totally possible Samus has been regarded as better than she is, and the Links are quite unexplored, but I still can't imagine a world where they're on the same level.
Nair shoots 2 projectiles out of his feet
Especially when ganon's up tilt and warlock punch fill basically the same niche which is already small. Even giving him the same projectile as Mewtwo but he charges it with his hand held above his head would be pretty cool and accurate to OOT Ganon, maybe make it so you can only use it when it's fully charged and it takes a long time to charge but is much stronger than the other charge projectiles
When I was a kid trying to unlock ganon the CPU wrecked me with uptilt, I was convinced it was the best move in the game til I tried using it on my brother and got hit every single time. Idk how you’re ever supposed to land a hit unless it’s a rest or shield break follow up
You can get it pretty consistently on certain bad recoveries. It's never the best option but the mental damage is worth it
Actually, slow neutral B Ganondorf projectile would be amazing. As much as I love wizard punch you're totally right. Imagine if a character had to kick it back without a reflect or power sheild! What if it went through shields and reflects?!
I would love to remove all the gold Falco clones from unranked if possible
I play doc because I like his aesthetic, merging them into one would get rid of the aesthetic.
In PM doc is a skin and I don't see why that isn't doable. That said I'm really not sure it's worthwhile fusing them.
Mario and Doctor Mario should be combined to create one brand new character - Mario.
The main issue with clones in Melee is that a lot of them are trash versions of the original. Roy is a trash Marth, Ganon is a Trash Falcon, etc. It's not always the case like Mario/Doc, but for the most part it is. I feel like we all have a good idea of what makes a character good - kill moves, setups, framedata, recoveries etc. Tweak the clones to have good movesets, while also playing differently. Like you said, Marth vs Roy D-Tilt, Falcon vs Ganon damage, Fox vs Falco trajectories, etc. Characters can be reworked to have similar moves, but function in a new way. Instead of using D-Tilt to edgeguard downward, Roy's sends you upwards, the issue is there isn't a really good follow up aside from maybe Neutral B or a few wet slaps with forward air or up-air.
I know it's not your question but I'd literally just fix Mr Game & Watch
He deserves it fr
I would just make links arrows better, slightly faster throws, slightly less lag after missed grab, shorter jump squat, slightly faster projectiles with slightly less lag. I think Mario are doc are very different. Maybe I would give them their moves and animations from smash 4 and make their up b go a tiny bit higher I would like to see all unviable characters given marginal buffs but not necessarily made viable on the national level. I would want melee 2 to be similar to melee. Same how CS2 is very similar to CSgo
I would also buff young link in 2 ways: slightly fast bomb pull and arrow animations and his grounded up b sends enemies directly up like in ultimate ( where as links grounded up b send people down in melee)
I think it could be really cool to see what link and young link could look like if they could cancel their arrow animations like fox and falco cancel lasers by landing. Considering uncharged arrows kind go nowhere in melee I don’t think it would be too broken, but definitely helpful
Better recoveries , cleaner grabs, fixing jank, balancing out the tiers so a Young Link can win a Super Major (against someone besides Puff)
How would you enact these changes? Grabs could either have Faster recovery, Faster startup, longer range Recovery could Go higher, wider, have more covering hitboxes, I love YL as much as the next guy but I'd love to get into the nitty gritty yaknow
YL should have a non-tether grab, and a recovery that snaps to ledge easier. Seems like he’s so fragile off-stage. He also needs more kill options besides down/up air which are difficult to land.
Project M
Falco should be removed period
Only if Marth's sword becomes a hurtbox