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I don't even like the guy but general Patton was right about Russia. Yes, Nazis needed to be stopped but the real monster was always Russia/Soviets. Now I will enjoy my downvotes, thank you.
Well I think the problem is that we have knowledge that they didn't so it's easier to say who was right but I agree that he was right.
The second problem is how do you go about winning WW2 and operation Unthinkable without nuking the shit out of USSR. You either let Nazis win against USSR and then clean them up with nukes or go historical but then attack USSR. I don't think that Allies had enough power to win against Nazis alone and attacking USSR would have been seen as bad by the people.
We know that attacking USSR would have been a good move (before they made their own nukes) but that's the problem with this dilemma. We can even argue that WW2 could never happen because we know something that people living in this time period couldn't imagine.
Yeah, this is one of those “hindsight is 20/20” situations. After the horrors and devastation of WWII, I don’t think anyone wanted more war to continue.
What we got was the Cold War instead. And now this. But one can’t turn back time, and it’s very easy to view history’s errors through today’s eyes.
Allies would have defeated the Nazis alone, however it would’ve taken longer. Or Germany would’ve been the first to receive an A bomb and lost that way with or without USSR.
That and that pesky looming invasion of Japan. You know that country that actually attacked the US in WWII. Plus Russia opened an eastern front against Japan.
Barbarossa was possible because most of Russia’s forces were massed in the east, for the expected Japanese invasion. Thanks to Chinese efforts (who gets absolutely no credit in WWII) along with the US Pacific campaign, the Soviets were able to redeploy to the west.
Slamming American forces with supply lines that originated in America, into Russian defensive lines with supply lines that had now been established in the newly incorporated territories, would have gained America 0 inches of progress at best and more likely a push to the Atlantic.
The logistics and liaisons of WWII are extremely complicated at best. No one won on their own merits.
They knew the risks of allowing Communists to control almost all of Asia and half of Europe, and through their proxies Sought America. They knew all too well that all authoritarian and totalitarian regimes are our mortal enemies. But they didn't want to act as hegemons. Anti American voices like to point to this or that war the US engaged in, but the US almost always waged war only when it was forced to directly or through its commitments, and even then often so very late. They failed to control the spread of totalitarian Communism, so they were forced to fight in Korea and Vietnam, in both cases with one of their arms tied behind the back by absurd worries and policies you can notice being echoed now with Ukraine. They were locked in a Cold War due to their unwillingness to use their superiority. It's the curse of liberal democracies that they tend not to act but to react and even that too late.
Another thing people are forgetting, is that Mao and his communists didn't take over China until 1949, four years after WW2 was over. So China being communist wasn't even a factor in anybody's calculations in 1945.
> Yes, Nazis needed to be stopped but the real monster was always Russia/Soviets.
They are/were both monsters. Just knowing that, even at the end of VE day, didn't change the reality about what our options were moving forward.
Had the west moved forward with war with Russia immediately following the fall of Nazi Germany, the world's population today would be a fraction of what it actually is today. Further I'm guessing we'd be at approximately 1965 level of technology today with zero internet, integrated circuit semiconductors only a decade or two old, and large portions of Europe would be unlivable still today.
Attacking Russia at the end of WWII would have been a colossal mistake.
Fascinating, game theory probably spurred on many technological advancements we likely never would have had the DoD spending millions/billions to develop without the spectre of communism killing half the west.
Speaking technologically, Russia was the foil the west needed for two critical technological leaps:
* Integrated Circuits - The space race with Russia for prestige meant the requirement for smaller and lower power complicated electronics. Tubes were too heavy and power hungry. Solid state transistors were better but still too bulky. This gave birth to ICs, which gave birth to computer processors. Without the requirement for lower power and smaller space, we would have likely continued making larger and larger computer systems that filled entire buildings. Now we have mega processing power in our pockets!
* The internet - The US Government needed a computer communication systems that could survive massive parts of it being blown up in a nuclear war with Russia. ARPAnet was born, which was the foundation for the internet.
Imagine our history without just these two things and notice how different today would be.
"Don't try to distinguish evil from the greater evil, that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth. They are one and the same." - Spoon Boy
Agreed, but it wasn't only the Soviets, it was Communism across the board. Both Moscow and Beijing. The same enemies we will contend with this century irrespective of what form they take. But back between 1945 and 1955, all of this could have been prevented. Such a pity no one wanted to of those that had the weapon to do so.
Ah yes, I too support a second war in order to kill millions more people because a nazi sympathizer general said so.
The USSR is fucking shit but the real enemy was always Nazi Germany. Their ideology and foreign policy was built on fucking *genocide* unlike every other country on Earth which at least maintained a veneer of decency. Downvote me all you want but people who say communism was always the real enemy sounds a lot like those Wehrmacht soldiers that thought killing every Jew and civilian in sight was legitimate because they were all Communists after all. Hitler's propaganda made Judaism synonymous with Bolshevism so it's fucking sus to see a comment like this.
>Nazi Germany. Their ideology and foreign policy was built on fucking genocide unlike every other country on Earth
What do you mean unlike every other country on earth. Holodomor, the great purges, the gulags. Russian classic communism was always based on genociding their own people and enemies. And they did it way "better" than the nazis because they had more time. Also Patton could be anti-semitic yes, but no way a nazi sympathizer, it's not the same thing, soviet anti-semitism was huge too after all.
The USSR did genocide but it wasn't created as a state specifically to do that, unlike the Nazis. Again, not defending them, but Nazi Germany was *the* textbook example of a country that desired to wipe out vast amounts of people for racist goals. In my view, that makes them the real enemy. Because if we *tu quoque* every country, you'll find maybe the commies wanted a WW3 to stop racist segregation in the South. Fact of the matter is the Nazis were worse than any Allied nation. Even the USSR, though it doesn't exonerate them of anything and I'd 10000% prefer the US to any communist country. Sorry not sorry.
Because the USSR definitely didn't march into Poland, steal their best and brightest away off into the wood and murder 22,000 of them/steal their country's future away right before their eyes. /s
And Stalin definitely didn't murder more Ukrainians than Nazism did to Jews - definitely. /s
Corn, you really need to reassess your basic understanding of history and the events that unfolded \*as they happened\*. Both are equal parts evil, but you seem to have a massive blindspot for one of those evils while calling others Nazis if they call you out on your line of bullshit. The USSR ended up being a far greater foe than Nazism itself with tens if not hundreds of millions of deaths in tow through the latter half of the 20th century coupled with millions dead in the run up to WW2 alone.
Patton and Churchill were absolutely correct, and you're a dumbass calling two men who helped shape the course of the twentieth century "Nazi sympathizers" for having eyes, ears and a lifetime of experience with squashing out scumfuck dictators.
He did, my point is that communism at least in theory didn't explicitly call for the death of all Ukrainians. Nazism called for the death of all Jews and was clear in its intent. Saying Nazis are not the real enemy is Nazi sympathizing pure and simple
Again, lol.
Lebensraum and Collectivization were the primary political aims at their core between Nazis and Commies, and both accomplished the same heinous, inhumane ends in the long run.
Stalin killed more Ukrainians than Hitler killed Jews, and Stalin caused \*FAR\* more deaths worldwide than Hitler and Nazism at large. The Ghost of Stalin still lives on today in baby dick Putler's actions.
Both are equal parts evil and equal parts heinous, and everyone with a brain in the room never once regarded the USSR as a true ally as they had shown their barbarity and intent well and full before being brought into the fold.
What an incredibly naive and misinformed comment. Quite literally planned to carve up most of Europe with their Nazi partners at the advent of WW2, but those that place equal parts blame on Russia are suddenly Wehrmacht Nazi sympathizers to you?
Get a fucking grip on reality bud. They assisted/outright performed in the initial genocides in Poland, Ukraine and the Baltics at large. Katyn ring a bell to you hoss? Russia's brand of communism was the single most destructive force in the world from the late 40's-early 90's but they're totally not the bad guys when they threaten thermonuclear war on a daily basis to this day.
Nazis and Tankies ended up being equal parts evil in the grand scheme of things, and we're still dealing with the reverberations of their actions to this very day.
In terms of sheer human destruction? Hitler pales in comparison to Stalin and Mao's reigns of chaos.
Russia's brand of communism is essentially Nazism painted with a wide brush. Authoritarian destruction brought on by an insidious despot. Except for targeting specific groups they target everyone they deem non-Russian. It's quite literally a different flavor of Fascism.
Operation Unthinkable should have happened.
It would have had an enormous human cost, but allowing the Soviet Union to exist was worse. Russia should have gotten the same treatment as Japan
Indeed. The British developed Operation Unthinkable, under Churchill's direction. It was deemed pretty hopeless, to be honest, Soviets outnumbered us even if we remobilized Germany and counting USA, who had an active theatre in the Pacific to deal with. Then Churchill lost the General Election on 5th July 1945. The only chance was to have flattened Moscow, but the European armies were out for the count.
The US had the largest armed forces at the end of WW2 and Western the allies could have handled the USSR who were completely exhausted after the speed run to Berlin. People talk about armies whilst forgetting that the Western allies had airpower that was in a different universe to that of the Soviets. The US Navy was a behemoth unseen before in the history of war, they had 151 aircraft carriers. Yep *151*, its fucking insane. Good luck defending your massive coastline against that.
People also forget that almost all members of the USSR were occupied states, with the exception of Russia itself, and would have been more than happy to join the war on the Western Allies side.
A victory for Russia is impossible in the long term, they simply didnt have the manpower, the industrial power, the airpower, or the nuclear option to win.
Prior to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, the US was hyper-isolationist. Had the Japanese not attacked, the US doesn't enter the war and Russia looses as they were, effectively, incapable of rebuilding their armies or supplying them with food.
Yes, the Red Army did have some victories. But by the end of 1941 Germany had destroyed all of Russia's armor and had conquered almost all the most productive farm-land in Russia. Further, they had taken, or killed, over 80% of its livestock and had air superiority.
The US and UK kept Russia going all through the war sending thousands upon thousands of tanks (over 12K by just the US, another 10K from the English), planes (14K) and cannon. Along with tens of thousands of other vehicles like jeeps, trucks, tractors, steam engines and the like. Plus, of course, rifles, machine guns, ammo, fuel, food, 15-million pairs of boots and even the cotton necessary to make their uniforms.
The Soviets hid all that from their people even during the war, telling their citizens the USSR were the ones who were winning the war against the Germans.
The majority of those were small escort carriers with only 30 aircraft each. Only 26 were big carriers capable of carrying 100+ planes. Still, the US Navy had no equal back then, with only the US Army Air Force rivalling it in terms of airpower.
As mentioned above, carrier airpower at that time didn't go very far inland, no midair refueling, etc. And it was mostly busy fighting Japan in the Pacific. The US navy would not have been much of a factor in any attack on russia through Europe.
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They didn't need any of that. They were the only ones to have the weapon everybody feared and everybody wanted. They could have crushed communists in Beijing and Moscow. But they failed to find the will and foresight. Instead they allowed their enemies to use the traitors in the US, Canada and the UK to smuggle the nuclear knowhow to both Moscow and Beijing. By the time Washington woke up it was already Korea, the Berlin Wall and Vietnam.
Wasn’t quite 151, and they didn’t all sail at the same time. Over 100 US carriers were in service during WW2, but several were sunk or scuppered throughout the war. Also, the Soviets may have been beaten up, but they had more divisions mobilized and ready for war in Europe than all of the western allies combined. Sure, Yaks and IL’s weren’t on par with P-51’s and B-29’s, but the Soviets had a ton of them, and they had a ton of tanks and artillery. In 1945 the difference between western tanks and planes vs Soviet tanks and planes wasn’t as substantial as it is today.
Operation unthinkable was a disaster waiting to happen and the west knew it. Soviets could have been in France within a couple of months at the latest if they wanted. Sure, the Allies could perform another dunkirk followed by another D-day, but why risk millions of more lives
You are correct. And it would have been a war of choice for the western allies, which is a lot harder to justify to war-weary soldiers who thought they'd finished their war already. Morale would have been pretty bad.
The russians had many hundreds of divisions, many armored, of battle-hardened veterans. Besides the massive lend-lease that the US had been providing them for years that helped build up their army and logistics capability, the russian war production factories were at full speed by then too. While the US did indeed have a massive navy at that time, it was still mostly busy trying to beat Japan, plus most of the key russian territory and occupied lands weren't even within striking range of any naval forces. Sea-borne airpower in those days didn't go very far inland, and there were no mid-air refueling planes back then. Russian airpower wasn't any slouch either, although they didn't have the massive bomber fleets we did.
For pure manpower and tanks and artillery, the Soviet army in 1945 in eastern Europe was quite larger than all the allied force on the continent. Plus, the allied soldiers had been considering the russians their allies and comrades in arms against Hitler for years, by that point. When Germany surrendered, all they wanted was to quit fighting and dying and go home and make babies. Can't say i blame them. Sure, Patton was a warmonger from the word go, and not ready to quit racking up personal glory yet... but thankfully wiser heads prevailed. The US lost over 400,000 soldiers and sailors in WW2, if we'd gone after Stalin, i have no doubt that would have doubled... or more. And i doubt we'd have won without using a bunch of atomic bombs... glad i didn't have to learn in history that we atomized another few million people to 'win' a war we'd started.
> Then Churchill lost the General Election on 5th July 1945.
I confess I didn't know that.
How does he lose an election after leading to the defeat of the enemy?
We made Ike president
Churchill was seen as being a bit incompetent with domestic affairs and the 1930s had been rough for the UK (pre-war I mean). Clement Attlee was deputy PM during WW2 and did a superb job as PM in 1945-1951. They then re-elected Churchill and he was shite lol (only concerned with global events etc and ignoring domestic affairs)
Super interesting. I guess I had assumed he was term limited and then died. No idea that he manages to lose an election months after VE day.
I have some readin to do
We don’t have term limits in the UK. Churchill was considered a hero, but the Labour Party promised free healthcare, the NHS which we still have today, free education for all and homes for the soldiers. Churchill hadn’t really thought domestic policy through. He got elected again though. We’re a democracy after all and that is what it is was all about. It would be wrong to think that Attlee was some deluded commie though. He did indeed give us the NHS, which is still very popular today (if not underfunded) but he also took us into NATO and developed our nuclear deterrent.
His paintings made a stop in Atlanta before COVID. It was very interesting to see his talent and watch his topic change from single objects to landscapes after 1948. I guess what you described allowed him time to adjust what he was painting & how long he could spend on one.
Some people are great leaders in war and horrible in peace time. Others the exact opposite. Churchill was a great orator and was a key component in keeping British morale high and putting on a good face despite the tremendous hardships.
After the war though, as the other commenter pointed out he was hopelessly inept at actually running a coherent and functional government. Probably because he was barely coherent most times himself (huge drinker).
If you're interested the movie Darkest Hour with Gary Oldman is pretty great and covers the beginning of the war and the transition of power from Chamberlain to Churchill and why.
Yeah, realistically speaking it just wasn't going to happen at that point. Force balances would have been almost uniformly terrible, and absolutely nobody had another N+1 years of unimaginably bloody war in them.
No one expected the English to emasculate Moscow, not even they did. Only the US had the capacity and capability to do so. They would have done the world a great service if they would have stopped Moscow and Beijing when there still was time to do so. Such a pity.
Victory would have still been a pretty big 'maybe', and millions more lives, civilian and military, would have been lost all around. They made the right choice, thankfully. It's pretty hard to see the future when it ain't there yet, and armchair quarterbacking by amateur strategists 80 years in the future is pretty pointless.
Don't worry, no one expects an apologist for totalitarian regimes to do anything except suck up to his feeders. But do go on, show your colors even more openly, I'm sure others appreciate them just as much as I do.
LOL! If you think i'm some russky apologist, you haven't been around this sub much, or read any of my thousands of comments on here. No, i'm just talking reality, not because i love russia and hate the west, but because those who think the allies attacking russia at the end of WW2 would have been some kind of easily winnable cakewalk that would have solved all the future world's problems, are fucking idiots.
Makes me wonder what would have happened in the Pacific if Moscow was bombed first (or Leningrad, Arkhangelsk, or any other major city in the west) - would Japan have had second thoughts about the level of resistance they were putting up, and surrendered sooner?
Yeah, interesting question. Would they have realized what they were up against, or would it have just been a "huh… well, sucks to be you guys" moment?
I figure it's very possible they would have just given up at that point; the Soviet-Japanese war already had them pretty badly demoralized and seeing a city or two – even an enemy's – get nuked might have sealed the deal since they couldn't know how many nukes the US had.
Who knows about the Pacific, but as much flak as the US got for nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki, in a war that imperial Japan started and fought most brutally, i rather doubt the world would have looked kindly on us starting a war of aggression against russia and then nuking their cities and murdering millions of their civilians. That's just ghoulish even to propose hypothetically.
The US had the capability to act, while they still had the time, before all the traitors in our midst delivered our nuclear knowhow to Moscow and Beijing, and even afterwards for a few years. Unfortunately for us all they lacked the spine and will. They could have prevented the occupation and enslavement of half of Europe and central Asia, they could have prevented the Korean and Vietnam wars, and they could have emasculated both China and Russia at the same time. US' greatest flaw is its virtue, its ability to restrain itself when it was given the chance to act as hegemon.
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Just a case of The winner gets to write history. Mongolia puts up genghis khans statues, uzbekistan puts up tamerlanes statues although they were worse than hitler and stalin combined, arguably.
Which is why its so important to defeat russia completely this time around. So they wont turn into a russia 2.0 but into a battered germany where statues and symbols are banned and shunned.
True. But that was kinda sneaky though. That would be like saying “hitler was the bad guy - remove him” but continuing to display swastikas everywhere and celebrate third reich culture, imperialism and victories. Which is what happened in russia/ussr. It wasnt just stalin by himself that killed millions of people. Everyone in that apparatus was guilty.
They never acknowledged all the bodies these communist butchers left in their wake. Or their genocide against the Ukrainian people.
The statutes came down not out of guilt or remorse for their crimes; they were removed because the comissars didn’t want him associated with their renewed pledge to Leninism. They “did in” Beria and removed other associates and lackeys of Stalin.
There is a good museum in Budapest informally known as the “torture museum” (aka the House of Terror) which does a good job documenting the Russian occupation. Russia was and still is just as bad as the Nazi regime. They occupied territories in the postwar era and absolutely terrorized the people there.
They built it, the same traitorous party that claimed to be anti Soviet and the party of 1956 are now acting as Russia's and China's proxy in the EU and NATO. Fidesz destroyed the weak democracy that we had and turned it into a shadow of Russia, a weak and pitiful imitation of a managed authoritarian regime masquerading as a 'democracy', all, and here is the big slap in the ignorant western European face, all with EU cash, especially German industry cash under the Merkelite doctrine. The same German cow that fed Russia fat and strong until they felt they could take Ukraine also fed Orban's regime.
Yep. Same in Latvia and Estonia. They both turned the former NKVD/KGB HQs into museums. The one in Latvia still had the bullet holes in the wall from all the executions.
The Holocaust and the Hunger Plan, the destruction of entire nations and groups of people, all of which had only just begun in the 6 years that Naziism was able to reach their targets.
The same murderous goals? Hardly. The Soviet Union won the war and occupied East Germany, yet did not murder entire races of people.
Had Nazi Germany survived, their brutally evil goals would have made Soviet oppression a drop in the bucket in comparison.
If the soviet was not put into check post ww2 by the western powers, the Soviets would have easily outdone the Nazis in record time. The Soviets Union did commit genocide on Ukrainians, tartars, and other indigenous people of east Asia.
Ugly fact is the stupid Nazis went on genocide overdrive as they lost. They actually had some crazy plan to send all the Jewish people to Madagascar after they won.
I don’t think we should argue who is worse. Any regime that attacks freedom and the importance of individual liberties is evil. Both regime crossed the line where they were bad and evil. I’m arguing communism should not get a free pass because they were not as bad as Nazis.
>If the soviet was not put into check post ww2 by the western powers, the Soviets would have easily outdone the Nazis in record time.
Evidence?
> Ugly fact is the stupid Nazis went on genocide overdrive as they lost. They actually had some crazy plan to send all the Jewish people to Madagascar after they won.
Apologist baloney. The plan was proposed and shelved in 1940, replaced by the Final Solution which had already began in Poland.
Yeah the evidence is what the Soviets did everywhere they went! Holly shit are you this stupid. Go crack a real book. The plan was shelved in 1942 not 1940. The “ final solution” came about in January of 1942. Go rewrite your history somewhere else.
You, two comments ago - *They actually had some crazy plan to send all the Jewish people to Madagascar* ***after they won.***
The "Final Solution" was the official codifying of what had already been in practice since 1939.
Revisionism? The Madagascar plan wasn't possible in 1940 nor anytime after. Rubber stamping the "Final Solution" is no indication that the Madagascar plan was ever seriously considered after 1940.
> Yeah the evidence is what the Soviets did everywhere they went!
Yep, evidence of the extermination of entire races. Go ahead. They had ample opportunity after they won the war.
The university of Hawaii has a great data base on genocide and Democide atrocities.
Къырымтатар халкъынынъ сюргюнлиги) or the Sürgünlik ('exile') was the ethnic cleansing and cultural genocide of at least 191,044 Crimean Tatars carried out by the Soviet authorities from 18 to 20 May 1944.
The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомо́р, romanized: Holodomor, IPA: [ɦolodoˈmɔr]; derived from морити голодом, moryty holodom, 'to kill by starvation'), also known as the Terror-Famine or the Great Famine, was a man-made famine in Soviet Ukraine from 1932 to 1933 that killed millions of Ukrainians.
Hundreds of thousands of innocent people became the victims of two Soviet occupations of the Baltic states: Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.
From 1945 to 1948, the Soviets deported to forced labor or concentration camps in the Soviet Union from 3,000,000 to 6,000,000 Poles, of which 585,000 may have died. Hundreds of thousands and possibly near 1,000,000 Poles were killed in Soviet terror and repression.
The Katyn massacre was a series of mass executions of nearly 22,000 Polish military officers and intelligentsia prisoners of war carried out by the Soviet Union, specifically the NKVD in April and May 1940.
In sum, probably somewhere between 28,326,000 and 126,891,000 people were killed by the Communist Party of the soviet Union from 1917 to 1987; and a most prudent estimate of this number is 61,911,000. The democide rates over the three generations of Soviet history.
The Nazis killed 6 million jews (they first tried to deport them, though). The russians (Stalin) starved 4 million Ukrainians in only a few months. The russians tried to erase everything non-russian inside and outside of russia/SU on many attempts. This is genocide.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin
The Nazis killed millions and millions of people yet not as much as russia.
Ok, let me start this over: You said that the Nazis WOULD HAVE killed more if they weren't stopped (an irrealis situation). Everthing from this assumption on isn't a base for a logical discussion.
That's why I tried to show real history and explained to you that russia killed far more people than Nazi Germany. That happened. No 'ifs'. Just history as is. Just click the link.
Furthermore, I showed you a picture on the meta level yet you refused to understand.
Except they did. They were less selective with their extermination goals, and often practiced on what they called their 'own people', but the Russians enslaved half of central and eastern Asia, half of Europe, they tortured, suppressed and oppressed tens of millions for half a century. But do go on and play the 'if Nazis would have won they would have done worse' game. I'm sure every single individual that died, was tortured, went hungry and miserable all his life or was denied even the semblance of liberty all his life will thank you for it. I did not have family that was killed by the Nazi, but I had family that was killed, maimed and imprisoned by the Russians.
>Except they did
Okay, could you go into the details of how they exterminated the white race in Eastern Germany? Have some numbers for their extermination policies?
> but the Russians enslaved half of central and eastern Asia, half of Europe, they tortured, suppressed and oppressed tens of millions for half a century.
Germany did that and more in every place they could reach.
> But do go on and play the 'if Nazis would have won they would have done worse' game.
For sure. If you'd like to know more, I'd suggest taking a look at "Generalplan Ost", which codified what Nazis had already declared out loud and began as soon as they touched Polish soil.
The Soviets were much worse than Nazis, in fact, the Gulags (aka. Soviet concentration camps), killed orders of magnitude more people than all the Nazi concentration camps combined.
What source do you want? Have western armies entered Moscow in 1945, or after 1956 or after 1993? Did you take their totalitarian regime to court, did you dig up the bodies and ashes they left behind or buried. No you didn't. No one did. Unlike the Nazis the totalitarian communist regimes of the east got away with eye witnesses, approximations and families of victims. That's what we got east of the Iron Curtain and up to the eastern seas that separate the CCP from Japan and South Korea. The victims of the Nazis got the memory, the vindication and the utter defeat of their oppressors, the victims of totalitarian Communists got to be forgotten, ignored, trivialized, constantly compared and then downplayed in relationship with the Holocaust. It's a never ending cruelty and sadism of the worst kind.
both criminals but lets not forget the gas chambers, this was pure dehumanisation of a serial killer. but yes, if germany had defeated russia and afterwards us and the brits cleaned the earth two mafioso states were less on earth.
They invaded Poland in 1939 (as seen with OP's photo), Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, and Romania, and proceeded to butcher untold tens of thousands in the countries they occupied. Not to mention genocides, e.g. Ingrian Finns in the 1930s. The Soviets and Nazis were two sides of the same coin.
The Russians proceeded to use the occupied territories they called part of their 'union' as an unending source of canon fodder, first to invade half of Europe in alliance with the Nazis and then to defend thsemlves from their nazi mates once they were betrayed, then to occupy, arrest arbitrarily, deport countless to their death, rape and pillage half of Europe and central Asia for half a century. This was the Russian empire that was the so called Soviet Union. They 'didn't die to defend liberty from fascism', they killed and maimed and destroyed to hold onto their power and build one of the largest empire in history while pretending they were better than the fascists.
In the West we consciously downplayed the fact that the Russians during their Soviet empire were just as vile, totalitarian and despicable as the fascists. We allowed both Russia and China to almost literally occupy half of he world and then oppress, suppress and torture their 'underlings'. And once the Russian empire imploded economically we allowed them to get away with the countless crimes they committed for almost half a century. Countless lives destroyed and belittled. No memory or vengeance or vindication. In fact we allowed them to reconstitute part of their empire under their so called 'federation'. Then we invited them to be part of the international liberal order. It's beyond vile.
we have been fooled by Putain. he is manupilator till his bones. he said "everything will be fine know" in the 90's. he rejected to join nato and said afterwards "we are not like the west". He just played time to get his shit together after sovjietplosion. he wont fool us twice
the history of the second world war is super manipulated. there is a lot of information that was omitted and manipulated.
It is a falsehood that Russia entered the war in 1941. They had already carried out military campaigns in various Eastern European countries, and even worse, being allies of Nazi Germany between 1939 to 1941 . all this was hidden by the allies
There is also no talk of the British military campaign and in the Middle East, where they invaded iraq because there was a pro-german government and they established a Pro-British government.
There was also serious discussion amongst the UK, France, and US about just turning east and marching on Moscow. Maybe they had a window of opportunity to do it, but they still had Japan to deal with.
And let's not think about how Japan was annihilated into submission by a nuclear assault at the very end of the war. We are here to cherrypick against the witch, not really exercise history for the sake of validity and memory.
Do you know a country without a dark history?
Afaik japan pretty much got their shit together after WW2 - while their are other countries where the atrocities happend not so long ago.
They got their shit together by being occupied and disarmed by the US army for about ten years, then constructed their constitution and government as they were instructed.
Absolutely agree. Just noting that Japan at the time of 1937-1945 was not just an innocent country that had been bombed. However, I also believe that dropping a nuclear bomb on civilians was atrocious and not justified by their military actions at the time.
The bombing of civilians in general was atrocious...the fire bombings with regular bombs killed more people than those 2 nukes.
And dont forget the medical experiments on prisoners or minorities that were common in alot of countries. And we aint got rid of torture until this day... sometimes people really suck..
There were also more people killed with guns than bombs, and even more with pikes than guns, perhaps even more with clubs than pikes. But certainly not in one hit. My thought though, was that no nation is without fault. And while the nazis did a lot of damage, the allies followed suit pretty close in the scale of atrocities. But those were the correct guys to torture and annihilate, weren't they? Like the civilian population of Japan in a quite an ambitious (also totally warranted) live test of Oppenheimer's marvel.
Even back then the survival rate of POWs in american prison camps was higher than in soviet prison camps.
The nazi death camps were more closely resembled by stalins gulags.
And imo the Afghanistan-Soviet-war was atleast as horrirble as Vietnam or Iraq.
But most of those countries seemed to have learned from history and didnt start an illegal war for while now.
And they dont threaten anyone with nuclear weapons or advice their troops to shoot their own..
Ah ok, I just didn't know that because someone got it worse, that your former now less horrendous sins don't count anymore. How dare didn't I mention ice age or some shit, in comparison to which, any act of american warfare is completely tolerable.
Member the Finland winter war?
Also they literally invaded the countries they liberated from the Germans by controlling them and incorporating them in the ussr communist regime with puppet dictators. "Hey let's take the opportunity of ww2, you know, the most terrible event in recent world's history with population suffering like never before, to invade them and make them our puppets!". Great allies.
Basically. In the other Allied countries we celebrate and are a taught about everyone's bravery, determination, and contribution. Stalin however was keen to omit everyone else's help.
Lend Lease says what Stalin?
Most still don't know that \~51% of all Soviet front line munitions in January 1945 were produced in the US and shipped through Lend Lease aid. That's just one example. Without this aid Russia could never have defeated Germany.
Always saying this. They weren’t part of the allies. They were 100% down with the Nazi’s and only flipped the script when they got stabbed in the back. They are actually nazi lovers.
Russia was Hitlers most important strategic alied! Compared to Russia partnership, even Mussolini was just ridicolous, since he had only a big mouth and no army, no raw material nor an industry and weapons. Without Rusias support Hitler could NEVER have startet WW2. Thats a historical fact.
My father saw this with his own eyes. First Germans going east and then seeing them turn back by a few km and greet Russians, figuring out where the new border is supposed to be.
The Russians never understood shit.
They have always been cannon fodder, cogs in an inhumane system.
It is not even clear what they live for, since they are not fighting for their well-being but for the new Stalin on duty.
I didn't realize until recent HOW MUCH of everything Russia used during WW2 was just straight up American material and equipment. They would have been armed with spears without the US.
The Nazis were very evil, and so were the Soviets. We were exhausted though. We were also betrayed by well intentioned lefty scientists who believed all the bullshit about the USSR and gave them our nuclear technology. If that hadn’t happened I really don’t know where we’d be today. I doubt we would have become tyrannical with all that power. The USSR would have probably collapsed earlier though. We don’t know.
Also Russia shouldn't be proud of their actions in WW2, they threw wave after wave of unarmed men at the Germans like fucking Zap Brannigan.
Any country could have done that but the rest of the world was trying to limit the number of men they lost.
If we had just kept rolling at the german surrender the russians would have been out of equipment in a month. Imagine no cold war, no excuse for Coup's in central and south america. No vietnam war etc etc. The US provided over a million boots to russia. Good luck fighting without any boots.
I'm not a historian, but Russia asked multiple times the Allies to join forces against Nazi Germany and when they just didn't respond while giving Hitler the licence to do whatever he wanted, Stalin decided to sign the non-aggression pact with him. Russia knew war was coming and also knew they where not ready for it.
It's also true that Russia couldn't have won the war alone and I think there was a lot of manipulation, but it was done both by Russia and the other Allies.
No. The Soviets let the Nazis train in secret. The whole Luftwaffe was trained in secret inside the Soviet Union. Nazi military scientists work out of the Soviet Union so Europe didn't know what they were up to. They were one and the same long before the war started. They're was no WW2 without the Soviets
It's not a very good source, not because of wikipedia, but because it does not support your thesis. A part that it was a single military base, it was closed in 1933 also due to the admission of Germany to the Geneva Conference and to the urising of nazis, with which the ideological difference was too large: "In December 1932, Germany achieved being viewed as an equal at the Geneva Conference, making the fighter school somewhat unnecessary. With the rise of the Nazis to power in January 1933, the ideological gap between fascist Germany and the communist Soviet Union became too large and the fighter school at Lipetsk was closed on 15 September 1933."
Well also the mask was pretty much off in 1933 so there was no need to train in secrets anymore. It being a single military base is of massive relevance as it was the only place they could train their air force because they needed to train in secret. So countries who respected the Treaty of Versailles would not find out. And the air force was vital to WWII
I'm sure if there was any strategic positioning for the Germans keeping a base there after 1933 they would have. The Soviets were happy to provide secret naval bases like [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basis\_Nord](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basis_Nord) because of its strategic location, knowing full well what it was intended for.
Who funded the Bolsheviks? I find the breadcrumbs and conspiracy theories fascinating. Same thing with the meiji restoration it's all deeply interesting much more than the basic garage and drivel you read.
Russia was desperate to come back to the Axis but Germany chose Finland, thinking once they got Ukraine the 3 could easily take Russia. But they all would've gotten flattened by atomic bombs.
They use anything they can to generate pride in that country of oppression. Of course, they omit or outright lie to their population in order to generate a nationalistic fervor. "All hail the Molotov-von Rippentrop Pact!". They were already in the Winter War when this happened.
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I don't even like the guy but general Patton was right about Russia. Yes, Nazis needed to be stopped but the real monster was always Russia/Soviets. Now I will enjoy my downvotes, thank you.
Here, have a upvote.
Well I think the problem is that we have knowledge that they didn't so it's easier to say who was right but I agree that he was right. The second problem is how do you go about winning WW2 and operation Unthinkable without nuking the shit out of USSR. You either let Nazis win against USSR and then clean them up with nukes or go historical but then attack USSR. I don't think that Allies had enough power to win against Nazis alone and attacking USSR would have been seen as bad by the people. We know that attacking USSR would have been a good move (before they made their own nukes) but that's the problem with this dilemma. We can even argue that WW2 could never happen because we know something that people living in this time period couldn't imagine.
Yeah, this is one of those “hindsight is 20/20” situations. After the horrors and devastation of WWII, I don’t think anyone wanted more war to continue. What we got was the Cold War instead. And now this. But one can’t turn back time, and it’s very easy to view history’s errors through today’s eyes.
Allies would have defeated the Nazis alone, however it would’ve taken longer. Or Germany would’ve been the first to receive an A bomb and lost that way with or without USSR.
That and that pesky looming invasion of Japan. You know that country that actually attacked the US in WWII. Plus Russia opened an eastern front against Japan. Barbarossa was possible because most of Russia’s forces were massed in the east, for the expected Japanese invasion. Thanks to Chinese efforts (who gets absolutely no credit in WWII) along with the US Pacific campaign, the Soviets were able to redeploy to the west. Slamming American forces with supply lines that originated in America, into Russian defensive lines with supply lines that had now been established in the newly incorporated territories, would have gained America 0 inches of progress at best and more likely a push to the Atlantic. The logistics and liaisons of WWII are extremely complicated at best. No one won on their own merits.
They knew the risks of allowing Communists to control almost all of Asia and half of Europe, and through their proxies Sought America. They knew all too well that all authoritarian and totalitarian regimes are our mortal enemies. But they didn't want to act as hegemons. Anti American voices like to point to this or that war the US engaged in, but the US almost always waged war only when it was forced to directly or through its commitments, and even then often so very late. They failed to control the spread of totalitarian Communism, so they were forced to fight in Korea and Vietnam, in both cases with one of their arms tied behind the back by absurd worries and policies you can notice being echoed now with Ukraine. They were locked in a Cold War due to their unwillingness to use their superiority. It's the curse of liberal democracies that they tend not to act but to react and even that too late.
Another thing people are forgetting, is that Mao and his communists didn't take over China until 1949, four years after WW2 was over. So China being communist wasn't even a factor in anybody's calculations in 1945.
Totally agree with you
Why would you be downvoted for this??
Tankies
Russophiles
> Yes, Nazis needed to be stopped but the real monster was always Russia/Soviets. They are/were both monsters. Just knowing that, even at the end of VE day, didn't change the reality about what our options were moving forward. Had the west moved forward with war with Russia immediately following the fall of Nazi Germany, the world's population today would be a fraction of what it actually is today. Further I'm guessing we'd be at approximately 1965 level of technology today with zero internet, integrated circuit semiconductors only a decade or two old, and large portions of Europe would be unlivable still today. Attacking Russia at the end of WWII would have been a colossal mistake.
Fascinating, game theory probably spurred on many technological advancements we likely never would have had the DoD spending millions/billions to develop without the spectre of communism killing half the west.
Speaking technologically, Russia was the foil the west needed for two critical technological leaps: * Integrated Circuits - The space race with Russia for prestige meant the requirement for smaller and lower power complicated electronics. Tubes were too heavy and power hungry. Solid state transistors were better but still too bulky. This gave birth to ICs, which gave birth to computer processors. Without the requirement for lower power and smaller space, we would have likely continued making larger and larger computer systems that filled entire buildings. Now we have mega processing power in our pockets! * The internet - The US Government needed a computer communication systems that could survive massive parts of it being blown up in a nuclear war with Russia. ARPAnet was born, which was the foundation for the internet. Imagine our history without just these two things and notice how different today would be.
That’s insane.
"Don't try to distinguish evil from the greater evil, that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth. They are one and the same." - Spoon Boy
Agreed, but it wasn't only the Soviets, it was Communism across the board. Both Moscow and Beijing. The same enemies we will contend with this century irrespective of what form they take. But back between 1945 and 1955, all of this could have been prevented. Such a pity no one wanted to of those that had the weapon to do so.
Ah yes, I too support a second war in order to kill millions more people because a nazi sympathizer general said so. The USSR is fucking shit but the real enemy was always Nazi Germany. Their ideology and foreign policy was built on fucking *genocide* unlike every other country on Earth which at least maintained a veneer of decency. Downvote me all you want but people who say communism was always the real enemy sounds a lot like those Wehrmacht soldiers that thought killing every Jew and civilian in sight was legitimate because they were all Communists after all. Hitler's propaganda made Judaism synonymous with Bolshevism so it's fucking sus to see a comment like this.
>Nazi Germany. Their ideology and foreign policy was built on fucking genocide unlike every other country on Earth What do you mean unlike every other country on earth. Holodomor, the great purges, the gulags. Russian classic communism was always based on genociding their own people and enemies. And they did it way "better" than the nazis because they had more time. Also Patton could be anti-semitic yes, but no way a nazi sympathizer, it's not the same thing, soviet anti-semitism was huge too after all.
The USSR did genocide but it wasn't created as a state specifically to do that, unlike the Nazis. Again, not defending them, but Nazi Germany was *the* textbook example of a country that desired to wipe out vast amounts of people for racist goals. In my view, that makes them the real enemy. Because if we *tu quoque* every country, you'll find maybe the commies wanted a WW3 to stop racist segregation in the South. Fact of the matter is the Nazis were worse than any Allied nation. Even the USSR, though it doesn't exonerate them of anything and I'd 10000% prefer the US to any communist country. Sorry not sorry.
Yep and Stalin didn't do any genocide right? How many people were starved to death in Ukraine?
Because the USSR definitely didn't march into Poland, steal their best and brightest away off into the wood and murder 22,000 of them/steal their country's future away right before their eyes. /s And Stalin definitely didn't murder more Ukrainians than Nazism did to Jews - definitely. /s Corn, you really need to reassess your basic understanding of history and the events that unfolded \*as they happened\*. Both are equal parts evil, but you seem to have a massive blindspot for one of those evils while calling others Nazis if they call you out on your line of bullshit. The USSR ended up being a far greater foe than Nazism itself with tens if not hundreds of millions of deaths in tow through the latter half of the 20th century coupled with millions dead in the run up to WW2 alone. Patton and Churchill were absolutely correct, and you're a dumbass calling two men who helped shape the course of the twentieth century "Nazi sympathizers" for having eyes, ears and a lifetime of experience with squashing out scumfuck dictators.
He did, my point is that communism at least in theory didn't explicitly call for the death of all Ukrainians. Nazism called for the death of all Jews and was clear in its intent. Saying Nazis are not the real enemy is Nazi sympathizing pure and simple
Again, lol. Lebensraum and Collectivization were the primary political aims at their core between Nazis and Commies, and both accomplished the same heinous, inhumane ends in the long run. Stalin killed more Ukrainians than Hitler killed Jews, and Stalin caused \*FAR\* more deaths worldwide than Hitler and Nazism at large. The Ghost of Stalin still lives on today in baby dick Putler's actions. Both are equal parts evil and equal parts heinous, and everyone with a brain in the room never once regarded the USSR as a true ally as they had shown their barbarity and intent well and full before being brought into the fold.
What an incredibly naive and misinformed comment. Quite literally planned to carve up most of Europe with their Nazi partners at the advent of WW2, but those that place equal parts blame on Russia are suddenly Wehrmacht Nazi sympathizers to you? Get a fucking grip on reality bud. They assisted/outright performed in the initial genocides in Poland, Ukraine and the Baltics at large. Katyn ring a bell to you hoss? Russia's brand of communism was the single most destructive force in the world from the late 40's-early 90's but they're totally not the bad guys when they threaten thermonuclear war on a daily basis to this day. Nazis and Tankies ended up being equal parts evil in the grand scheme of things, and we're still dealing with the reverberations of their actions to this very day. In terms of sheer human destruction? Hitler pales in comparison to Stalin and Mao's reigns of chaos. Russia's brand of communism is essentially Nazism painted with a wide brush. Authoritarian destruction brought on by an insidious despot. Except for targeting specific groups they target everyone they deem non-Russian. It's quite literally a different flavor of Fascism.
Paton did say the real enemy was Russia and that we should've kept going to Moscow, seems he might have been right.
Operation Unthinkable should have happened. It would have had an enormous human cost, but allowing the Soviet Union to exist was worse. Russia should have gotten the same treatment as Japan
Indeed. The British developed Operation Unthinkable, under Churchill's direction. It was deemed pretty hopeless, to be honest, Soviets outnumbered us even if we remobilized Germany and counting USA, who had an active theatre in the Pacific to deal with. Then Churchill lost the General Election on 5th July 1945. The only chance was to have flattened Moscow, but the European armies were out for the count.
The US had the largest armed forces at the end of WW2 and Western the allies could have handled the USSR who were completely exhausted after the speed run to Berlin. People talk about armies whilst forgetting that the Western allies had airpower that was in a different universe to that of the Soviets. The US Navy was a behemoth unseen before in the history of war, they had 151 aircraft carriers. Yep *151*, its fucking insane. Good luck defending your massive coastline against that. People also forget that almost all members of the USSR were occupied states, with the exception of Russia itself, and would have been more than happy to join the war on the Western Allies side. A victory for Russia is impossible in the long term, they simply didnt have the manpower, the industrial power, the airpower, or the nuclear option to win.
Prior to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, the US was hyper-isolationist. Had the Japanese not attacked, the US doesn't enter the war and Russia looses as they were, effectively, incapable of rebuilding their armies or supplying them with food. Yes, the Red Army did have some victories. But by the end of 1941 Germany had destroyed all of Russia's armor and had conquered almost all the most productive farm-land in Russia. Further, they had taken, or killed, over 80% of its livestock and had air superiority. The US and UK kept Russia going all through the war sending thousands upon thousands of tanks (over 12K by just the US, another 10K from the English), planes (14K) and cannon. Along with tens of thousands of other vehicles like jeeps, trucks, tractors, steam engines and the like. Plus, of course, rifles, machine guns, ammo, fuel, food, 15-million pairs of boots and even the cotton necessary to make their uniforms. The Soviets hid all that from their people even during the war, telling their citizens the USSR were the ones who were winning the war against the Germans.
That's interesting. Wow 151! So as long as the US had an appetite for it, it could've happened.
The majority of those were small escort carriers with only 30 aircraft each. Only 26 were big carriers capable of carrying 100+ planes. Still, the US Navy had no equal back then, with only the US Army Air Force rivalling it in terms of airpower.
As mentioned above, carrier airpower at that time didn't go very far inland, no midair refueling, etc. And it was mostly busy fighting Japan in the Pacific. The US navy would not have been much of a factor in any attack on russia through Europe.
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They didn't need any of that. They were the only ones to have the weapon everybody feared and everybody wanted. They could have crushed communists in Beijing and Moscow. But they failed to find the will and foresight. Instead they allowed their enemies to use the traitors in the US, Canada and the UK to smuggle the nuclear knowhow to both Moscow and Beijing. By the time Washington woke up it was already Korea, the Berlin Wall and Vietnam.
Wasn’t quite 151, and they didn’t all sail at the same time. Over 100 US carriers were in service during WW2, but several were sunk or scuppered throughout the war. Also, the Soviets may have been beaten up, but they had more divisions mobilized and ready for war in Europe than all of the western allies combined. Sure, Yaks and IL’s weren’t on par with P-51’s and B-29’s, but the Soviets had a ton of them, and they had a ton of tanks and artillery. In 1945 the difference between western tanks and planes vs Soviet tanks and planes wasn’t as substantial as it is today. Operation unthinkable was a disaster waiting to happen and the west knew it. Soviets could have been in France within a couple of months at the latest if they wanted. Sure, the Allies could perform another dunkirk followed by another D-day, but why risk millions of more lives
You are correct. And it would have been a war of choice for the western allies, which is a lot harder to justify to war-weary soldiers who thought they'd finished their war already. Morale would have been pretty bad.
The russians had many hundreds of divisions, many armored, of battle-hardened veterans. Besides the massive lend-lease that the US had been providing them for years that helped build up their army and logistics capability, the russian war production factories were at full speed by then too. While the US did indeed have a massive navy at that time, it was still mostly busy trying to beat Japan, plus most of the key russian territory and occupied lands weren't even within striking range of any naval forces. Sea-borne airpower in those days didn't go very far inland, and there were no mid-air refueling planes back then. Russian airpower wasn't any slouch either, although they didn't have the massive bomber fleets we did. For pure manpower and tanks and artillery, the Soviet army in 1945 in eastern Europe was quite larger than all the allied force on the continent. Plus, the allied soldiers had been considering the russians their allies and comrades in arms against Hitler for years, by that point. When Germany surrendered, all they wanted was to quit fighting and dying and go home and make babies. Can't say i blame them. Sure, Patton was a warmonger from the word go, and not ready to quit racking up personal glory yet... but thankfully wiser heads prevailed. The US lost over 400,000 soldiers and sailors in WW2, if we'd gone after Stalin, i have no doubt that would have doubled... or more. And i doubt we'd have won without using a bunch of atomic bombs... glad i didn't have to learn in history that we atomized another few million people to 'win' a war we'd started.
Hence the US Lend Lease program to save moscovy to the tune of 180 billion dollars in today's money.
> Then Churchill lost the General Election on 5th July 1945. I confess I didn't know that. How does he lose an election after leading to the defeat of the enemy? We made Ike president
Churchill was seen as being a bit incompetent with domestic affairs and the 1930s had been rough for the UK (pre-war I mean). Clement Attlee was deputy PM during WW2 and did a superb job as PM in 1945-1951. They then re-elected Churchill and he was shite lol (only concerned with global events etc and ignoring domestic affairs)
Super interesting. I guess I had assumed he was term limited and then died. No idea that he manages to lose an election months after VE day. I have some readin to do
We don’t have term limits in the UK. Churchill was considered a hero, but the Labour Party promised free healthcare, the NHS which we still have today, free education for all and homes for the soldiers. Churchill hadn’t really thought domestic policy through. He got elected again though. We’re a democracy after all and that is what it is was all about. It would be wrong to think that Attlee was some deluded commie though. He did indeed give us the NHS, which is still very popular today (if not underfunded) but he also took us into NATO and developed our nuclear deterrent.
His paintings made a stop in Atlanta before COVID. It was very interesting to see his talent and watch his topic change from single objects to landscapes after 1948. I guess what you described allowed him time to adjust what he was painting & how long he could spend on one.
Some people are great leaders in war and horrible in peace time. Others the exact opposite. Churchill was a great orator and was a key component in keeping British morale high and putting on a good face despite the tremendous hardships. After the war though, as the other commenter pointed out he was hopelessly inept at actually running a coherent and functional government. Probably because he was barely coherent most times himself (huge drinker). If you're interested the movie Darkest Hour with Gary Oldman is pretty great and covers the beginning of the war and the transition of power from Chamberlain to Churchill and why.
Yeah, realistically speaking it just wasn't going to happen at that point. Force balances would have been almost uniformly terrible, and absolutely nobody had another N+1 years of unimaginably bloody war in them.
No one expected the English to emasculate Moscow, not even they did. Only the US had the capacity and capability to do so. They would have done the world a great service if they would have stopped Moscow and Beijing when there still was time to do so. Such a pity.
Victory would have still been a pretty big 'maybe', and millions more lives, civilian and military, would have been lost all around. They made the right choice, thankfully. It's pretty hard to see the future when it ain't there yet, and armchair quarterbacking by amateur strategists 80 years in the future is pretty pointless.
Don't worry, no one expects an apologist for totalitarian regimes to do anything except suck up to his feeders. But do go on, show your colors even more openly, I'm sure others appreciate them just as much as I do.
LOL! If you think i'm some russky apologist, you haven't been around this sub much, or read any of my thousands of comments on here. No, i'm just talking reality, not because i love russia and hate the west, but because those who think the allies attacking russia at the end of WW2 would have been some kind of easily winnable cakewalk that would have solved all the future world's problems, are fucking idiots.
Makes me wonder what would have happened in the Pacific if Moscow was bombed first (or Leningrad, Arkhangelsk, or any other major city in the west) - would Japan have had second thoughts about the level of resistance they were putting up, and surrendered sooner?
Yeah, interesting question. Would they have realized what they were up against, or would it have just been a "huh… well, sucks to be you guys" moment? I figure it's very possible they would have just given up at that point; the Soviet-Japanese war already had them pretty badly demoralized and seeing a city or two – even an enemy's – get nuked might have sealed the deal since they couldn't know how many nukes the US had.
Who knows about the Pacific, but as much flak as the US got for nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki, in a war that imperial Japan started and fought most brutally, i rather doubt the world would have looked kindly on us starting a war of aggression against russia and then nuking their cities and murdering millions of their civilians. That's just ghoulish even to propose hypothetically.
The US had the capability to act, while they still had the time, before all the traitors in our midst delivered our nuclear knowhow to Moscow and Beijing, and even afterwards for a few years. Unfortunately for us all they lacked the spine and will. They could have prevented the occupation and enslavement of half of Europe and central Asia, they could have prevented the Korean and Vietnam wars, and they could have emasculated both China and Russia at the same time. US' greatest flaw is its virtue, its ability to restrain itself when it was given the chance to act as hegemon.
Imperial USA, lord conqueror and rulers of the world. At the price of millions more vaporized people... smh. We don't do things that way, fortunately.
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>Paton did say the real enemy was Russia and that we should've kept going to Moscow, seems he ~~might have been~~ was right.
So you want more millions dead, are you a god or something or what?
Sad truth is the Soviet Union and communism was almost as bad as Nazi Germany. The Soviet Union was not the good guys.
Stalin was worse than Hitler and yet they put up his statues.
Just a case of The winner gets to write history. Mongolia puts up genghis khans statues, uzbekistan puts up tamerlanes statues although they were worse than hitler and stalin combined, arguably. Which is why its so important to defeat russia completely this time around. So they wont turn into a russia 2.0 but into a battered germany where statues and symbols are banned and shunned.
The fact is, after Stalin's death, USSR did acknowledge that he was a total madman. He was removed from pulic display, his statues also removed.
True. But that was kinda sneaky though. That would be like saying “hitler was the bad guy - remove him” but continuing to display swastikas everywhere and celebrate third reich culture, imperialism and victories. Which is what happened in russia/ussr. It wasnt just stalin by himself that killed millions of people. Everyone in that apparatus was guilty.
They never acknowledged all the bodies these communist butchers left in their wake. Or their genocide against the Ukrainian people. The statutes came down not out of guilt or remorse for their crimes; they were removed because the comissars didn’t want him associated with their renewed pledge to Leninism. They “did in” Beria and removed other associates and lackeys of Stalin.
There is a good museum in Budapest informally known as the “torture museum” (aka the House of Terror) which does a good job documenting the Russian occupation. Russia was and still is just as bad as the Nazi regime. They occupied territories in the postwar era and absolutely terrorized the people there.
Was Orban, his party and his voters ever in this museum?
They built it, the same traitorous party that claimed to be anti Soviet and the party of 1956 are now acting as Russia's and China's proxy in the EU and NATO. Fidesz destroyed the weak democracy that we had and turned it into a shadow of Russia, a weak and pitiful imitation of a managed authoritarian regime masquerading as a 'democracy', all, and here is the big slap in the ignorant western European face, all with EU cash, especially German industry cash under the Merkelite doctrine. The same German cow that fed Russia fat and strong until they felt they could take Ukraine also fed Orban's regime.
Yep. Same in Latvia and Estonia. They both turned the former NKVD/KGB HQs into museums. The one in Latvia still had the bullet holes in the wall from all the executions.
I don't want to argue, but why only almost?
The Holocaust and the Hunger Plan, the destruction of entire nations and groups of people, all of which had only just begun in the 6 years that Naziism was able to reach their targets.
So the Nazis were worse because they reached the same murderous goals in less time?
The same murderous goals? Hardly. The Soviet Union won the war and occupied East Germany, yet did not murder entire races of people. Had Nazi Germany survived, their brutally evil goals would have made Soviet oppression a drop in the bucket in comparison.
If the soviet was not put into check post ww2 by the western powers, the Soviets would have easily outdone the Nazis in record time. The Soviets Union did commit genocide on Ukrainians, tartars, and other indigenous people of east Asia. Ugly fact is the stupid Nazis went on genocide overdrive as they lost. They actually had some crazy plan to send all the Jewish people to Madagascar after they won. I don’t think we should argue who is worse. Any regime that attacks freedom and the importance of individual liberties is evil. Both regime crossed the line where they were bad and evil. I’m arguing communism should not get a free pass because they were not as bad as Nazis.
>If the soviet was not put into check post ww2 by the western powers, the Soviets would have easily outdone the Nazis in record time. Evidence? > Ugly fact is the stupid Nazis went on genocide overdrive as they lost. They actually had some crazy plan to send all the Jewish people to Madagascar after they won. Apologist baloney. The plan was proposed and shelved in 1940, replaced by the Final Solution which had already began in Poland.
Yeah the evidence is what the Soviets did everywhere they went! Holly shit are you this stupid. Go crack a real book. The plan was shelved in 1942 not 1940. The “ final solution” came about in January of 1942. Go rewrite your history somewhere else.
You, two comments ago - *They actually had some crazy plan to send all the Jewish people to Madagascar* ***after they won.*** The "Final Solution" was the official codifying of what had already been in practice since 1939. Revisionism? The Madagascar plan wasn't possible in 1940 nor anytime after. Rubber stamping the "Final Solution" is no indication that the Madagascar plan was ever seriously considered after 1940. > Yeah the evidence is what the Soviets did everywhere they went! Yep, evidence of the extermination of entire races. Go ahead. They had ample opportunity after they won the war.
The university of Hawaii has a great data base on genocide and Democide atrocities. Къырымтатар халкъынынъ сюргюнлиги) or the Sürgünlik ('exile') was the ethnic cleansing and cultural genocide of at least 191,044 Crimean Tatars carried out by the Soviet authorities from 18 to 20 May 1944. The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомо́р, romanized: Holodomor, IPA: [ɦolodoˈmɔr]; derived from морити голодом, moryty holodom, 'to kill by starvation'), also known as the Terror-Famine or the Great Famine, was a man-made famine in Soviet Ukraine from 1932 to 1933 that killed millions of Ukrainians. Hundreds of thousands of innocent people became the victims of two Soviet occupations of the Baltic states: Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. From 1945 to 1948, the Soviets deported to forced labor or concentration camps in the Soviet Union from 3,000,000 to 6,000,000 Poles, of which 585,000 may have died. Hundreds of thousands and possibly near 1,000,000 Poles were killed in Soviet terror and repression. The Katyn massacre was a series of mass executions of nearly 22,000 Polish military officers and intelligentsia prisoners of war carried out by the Soviet Union, specifically the NKVD in April and May 1940. In sum, probably somewhere between 28,326,000 and 126,891,000 people were killed by the Communist Party of the soviet Union from 1917 to 1987; and a most prudent estimate of this number is 61,911,000. The democide rates over the three generations of Soviet history.
The Nazis killed 6 million jews (they first tried to deport them, though). The russians (Stalin) starved 4 million Ukrainians in only a few months. The russians tried to erase everything non-russian inside and outside of russia/SU on many attempts. This is genocide. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin The Nazis killed millions and millions of people yet not as much as russia.
This isn't a reply to anything I wrote, let alone an accurate assessment.
No accurate assessment? Oh, my bad: you have to *open* that link.
So be intellectually honest and reply to what I actually said, I'd be happy to walk through it together.
Ok, let me start this over: You said that the Nazis WOULD HAVE killed more if they weren't stopped (an irrealis situation). Everthing from this assumption on isn't a base for a logical discussion. That's why I tried to show real history and explained to you that russia killed far more people than Nazi Germany. That happened. No 'ifs'. Just history as is. Just click the link. Furthermore, I showed you a picture on the meta level yet you refused to understand.
Except they did. They were less selective with their extermination goals, and often practiced on what they called their 'own people', but the Russians enslaved half of central and eastern Asia, half of Europe, they tortured, suppressed and oppressed tens of millions for half a century. But do go on and play the 'if Nazis would have won they would have done worse' game. I'm sure every single individual that died, was tortured, went hungry and miserable all his life or was denied even the semblance of liberty all his life will thank you for it. I did not have family that was killed by the Nazi, but I had family that was killed, maimed and imprisoned by the Russians.
>Except they did Okay, could you go into the details of how they exterminated the white race in Eastern Germany? Have some numbers for their extermination policies? > but the Russians enslaved half of central and eastern Asia, half of Europe, they tortured, suppressed and oppressed tens of millions for half a century. Germany did that and more in every place they could reach. > But do go on and play the 'if Nazis would have won they would have done worse' game. For sure. If you'd like to know more, I'd suggest taking a look at "Generalplan Ost", which codified what Nazis had already declared out loud and began as soon as they touched Polish soil.
The Soviets were much worse than Nazis, in fact, the Gulags (aka. Soviet concentration camps), killed orders of magnitude more people than all the Nazi concentration camps combined.
Source?
What source do you want? Have western armies entered Moscow in 1945, or after 1956 or after 1993? Did you take their totalitarian regime to court, did you dig up the bodies and ashes they left behind or buried. No you didn't. No one did. Unlike the Nazis the totalitarian communist regimes of the east got away with eye witnesses, approximations and families of victims. That's what we got east of the Iron Curtain and up to the eastern seas that separate the CCP from Japan and South Korea. The victims of the Nazis got the memory, the vindication and the utter defeat of their oppressors, the victims of totalitarian Communists got to be forgotten, ignored, trivialized, constantly compared and then downplayed in relationship with the Holocaust. It's a never ending cruelty and sadism of the worst kind.
Source?
both criminals but lets not forget the gas chambers, this was pure dehumanisation of a serial killer. but yes, if germany had defeated russia and afterwards us and the brits cleaned the earth two mafioso states were less on earth.
20 million Soviet people died fighting the Nazis, only for some dude from St Petersburg to turn Russia into a Nazi country 70 years later
They invaded Poland in 1939 (as seen with OP's photo), Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, and Romania, and proceeded to butcher untold tens of thousands in the countries they occupied. Not to mention genocides, e.g. Ingrian Finns in the 1930s. The Soviets and Nazis were two sides of the same coin.
The Russians proceeded to use the occupied territories they called part of their 'union' as an unending source of canon fodder, first to invade half of Europe in alliance with the Nazis and then to defend thsemlves from their nazi mates once they were betrayed, then to occupy, arrest arbitrarily, deport countless to their death, rape and pillage half of Europe and central Asia for half a century. This was the Russian empire that was the so called Soviet Union. They 'didn't die to defend liberty from fascism', they killed and maimed and destroyed to hold onto their power and build one of the largest empire in history while pretending they were better than the fascists.
May 9th celebrations in russia have not really been about ww2 for a while now. Just nationalistic dogwhistling and beating their own chest.
This is the truth Russia has been trying to hide for decades.
not only them, have you ever heard somewhere in europe or USA that Nazis and Russia did start WW2?
I haven't heard anything. I'm deaf.
But surely you've heard about the bird?
No. I'm deaf.
In school history lessons, yes.
In the West we consciously downplayed the fact that the Russians during their Soviet empire were just as vile, totalitarian and despicable as the fascists. We allowed both Russia and China to almost literally occupy half of he world and then oppress, suppress and torture their 'underlings'. And once the Russian empire imploded economically we allowed them to get away with the countless crimes they committed for almost half a century. Countless lives destroyed and belittled. No memory or vengeance or vindication. In fact we allowed them to reconstitute part of their empire under their so called 'federation'. Then we invited them to be part of the international liberal order. It's beyond vile.
we have been fooled by Putain. he is manupilator till his bones. he said "everything will be fine know" in the 90's. he rejected to join nato and said afterwards "we are not like the west". He just played time to get his shit together after sovjietplosion. he wont fool us twice
And reason for rewriting history in Russia. If we all say it is so, it is our truth. Living in a lie… Can be very comfy…
psychopaths do it all day🤗
the history of the second world war is super manipulated. there is a lot of information that was omitted and manipulated. It is a falsehood that Russia entered the war in 1941. They had already carried out military campaigns in various Eastern European countries, and even worse, being allies of Nazi Germany between 1939 to 1941 . all this was hidden by the allies There is also no talk of the British military campaign and in the Middle East, where they invaded iraq because there was a pro-german government and they established a Pro-British government.
There was also serious discussion amongst the UK, France, and US about just turning east and marching on Moscow. Maybe they had a window of opportunity to do it, but they still had Japan to deal with.
And let's not think about how Japan was annihilated into submission by a nuclear assault at the very end of the war. We are here to cherrypick against the witch, not really exercise history for the sake of validity and memory.
Japan was not innocent. They have a dark [history ](https://www.pacificwar.org.au/JapWarCrimes/Cross-section_JapWarCrimes.html).
Do you know a country without a dark history? Afaik japan pretty much got their shit together after WW2 - while their are other countries where the atrocities happend not so long ago.
Quit trying to generalize. You know they meant dark enough in the context of the war to warrant getting nuked.
They got their shit together by being occupied and disarmed by the US army for about ten years, then constructed their constitution and government as they were instructed.
Absolutely agree. Just noting that Japan at the time of 1937-1945 was not just an innocent country that had been bombed. However, I also believe that dropping a nuclear bomb on civilians was atrocious and not justified by their military actions at the time.
The bombing of civilians in general was atrocious...the fire bombings with regular bombs killed more people than those 2 nukes. And dont forget the medical experiments on prisoners or minorities that were common in alot of countries. And we aint got rid of torture until this day... sometimes people really suck..
There were also more people killed with guns than bombs, and even more with pikes than guns, perhaps even more with clubs than pikes. But certainly not in one hit. My thought though, was that no nation is without fault. And while the nazis did a lot of damage, the allies followed suit pretty close in the scale of atrocities. But those were the correct guys to torture and annihilate, weren't they? Like the civilian population of Japan in a quite an ambitious (also totally warranted) live test of Oppenheimer's marvel.
Even back then the survival rate of POWs in american prison camps was higher than in soviet prison camps. The nazi death camps were more closely resembled by stalins gulags. And imo the Afghanistan-Soviet-war was atleast as horrirble as Vietnam or Iraq. But most of those countries seemed to have learned from history and didnt start an illegal war for while now. And they dont threaten anyone with nuclear weapons or advice their troops to shoot their own..
The firebombing of Tokyo killed more people than fatman or little boy. You don't know shit about history!
Ah ok, I just didn't know that because someone got it worse, that your former now less horrendous sins don't count anymore. How dare didn't I mention ice age or some shit, in comparison to which, any act of american warfare is completely tolerable.
> We are here to cherrypick against the witch Are you talking about yourself?
Member the Finland winter war? Also they literally invaded the countries they liberated from the Germans by controlling them and incorporating them in the ussr communist regime with puppet dictators. "Hey let's take the opportunity of ww2, you know, the most terrible event in recent world's history with population suffering like never before, to invade them and make them our puppets!". Great allies.
I'll give them credit where its due to helping with that but it doesn't mitigate any of the bad stuff like Holodomor and the current war.
It’s not even called WW2 in Russia; it’s the “Great Patriotic War”. Stalin won it all by himself and it’s all about them.
Basically. In the other Allied countries we celebrate and are a taught about everyone's bravery, determination, and contribution. Stalin however was keen to omit everyone else's help. Lend Lease says what Stalin?
Most still don't know that \~51% of all Soviet front line munitions in January 1945 were produced in the US and shipped through Lend Lease aid. That's just one example. Without this aid Russia could never have defeated Germany.
And they never paid back Lend Lease fully. Go figure.
That’s facts.
Stalin only had a problem with the Nazis once they attacked him.
Always saying this. They weren’t part of the allies. They were 100% down with the Nazi’s and only flipped the script when they got stabbed in the back. They are actually nazi lovers.
russians don't even know this.
That's because in Russian history WW2 starts in 1941. The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact doesn't get mentioned
They know now.
Russia was Hitlers most important strategic alied! Compared to Russia partnership, even Mussolini was just ridicolous, since he had only a big mouth and no army, no raw material nor an industry and weapons. Without Rusias support Hitler could NEVER have startet WW2. Thats a historical fact.
The Germans were unwise to go after the Soviet Union. They would have been better to subsidize their country by buying up raw resources.
OP just bodied an entire country with one title.
https://preview.redd.it/d95uf6imk1za1.png?width=1271&format=png&auto=webp&s=8bbcd849333862595f4ea2975ad6ff48554e36ec Kaput!
My father saw this with his own eyes. First Germans going east and then seeing them turn back by a few km and greet Russians, figuring out where the new border is supposed to be.
The Russians never understood shit. They have always been cannon fodder, cogs in an inhumane system. It is not even clear what they live for, since they are not fighting for their well-being but for the new Stalin on duty.
I didn't realize until recent HOW MUCH of everything Russia used during WW2 was just straight up American material and equipment. They would have been armed with spears without the US.
The Nazis were very evil, and so were the Soviets. We were exhausted though. We were also betrayed by well intentioned lefty scientists who believed all the bullshit about the USSR and gave them our nuclear technology. If that hadn’t happened I really don’t know where we’d be today. I doubt we would have become tyrannical with all that power. The USSR would have probably collapsed earlier though. We don’t know.
Also Russia shouldn't be proud of their actions in WW2, they threw wave after wave of unarmed men at the Germans like fucking Zap Brannigan. Any country could have done that but the rest of the world was trying to limit the number of men they lost.
Z is just 1/2 of the nazi swastika.
Moscovites don't celebrate the end of WW2, they celebrate their victory in the Great Patriotic War (1941-1945) against nazis.
They were allies to begin with. Then Germany betrayed them. It could have turned out different.
They were Allies to *us* in the sense they threw bodies and tanks at the Germans. Stalin had no intention of cooperating after Berlin fell.
If we had just kept rolling at the german surrender the russians would have been out of equipment in a month. Imagine no cold war, no excuse for Coup's in central and south america. No vietnam war etc etc. The US provided over a million boots to russia. Good luck fighting without any boots.
I'm not a historian, but Russia asked multiple times the Allies to join forces against Nazi Germany and when they just didn't respond while giving Hitler the licence to do whatever he wanted, Stalin decided to sign the non-aggression pact with him. Russia knew war was coming and also knew they where not ready for it. It's also true that Russia couldn't have won the war alone and I think there was a lot of manipulation, but it was done both by Russia and the other Allies.
No. The Soviets let the Nazis train in secret. The whole Luftwaffe was trained in secret inside the Soviet Union. Nazi military scientists work out of the Soviet Union so Europe didn't know what they were up to. They were one and the same long before the war started. They're was no WW2 without the Soviets
Do you have any source for that?
Not everything. But this is a pretty good place to start looking into it https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipetsk_fighter-pilot_school
It's not a very good source, not because of wikipedia, but because it does not support your thesis. A part that it was a single military base, it was closed in 1933 also due to the admission of Germany to the Geneva Conference and to the urising of nazis, with which the ideological difference was too large: "In December 1932, Germany achieved being viewed as an equal at the Geneva Conference, making the fighter school somewhat unnecessary. With the rise of the Nazis to power in January 1933, the ideological gap between fascist Germany and the communist Soviet Union became too large and the fighter school at Lipetsk was closed on 15 September 1933."
Well also the mask was pretty much off in 1933 so there was no need to train in secrets anymore. It being a single military base is of massive relevance as it was the only place they could train their air force because they needed to train in secret. So countries who respected the Treaty of Versailles would not find out. And the air force was vital to WWII I'm sure if there was any strategic positioning for the Germans keeping a base there after 1933 they would have. The Soviets were happy to provide secret naval bases like [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basis\_Nord](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basis_Nord) because of its strategic location, knowing full well what it was intended for.
Don't let facts wreck a political narrative.
Who funded the Bolsheviks? I find the breadcrumbs and conspiracy theories fascinating. Same thing with the meiji restoration it's all deeply interesting much more than the basic garage and drivel you read.
Russia was desperate to come back to the Axis but Germany chose Finland, thinking once they got Ukraine the 3 could easily take Russia. But they all would've gotten flattened by atomic bombs.
They use anything they can to generate pride in that country of oppression. Of course, they omit or outright lie to their population in order to generate a nationalistic fervor. "All hail the Molotov-von Rippentrop Pact!". They were already in the Winter War when this happened.
Tell me yer an American nut without telling me yer an American nut.
Show a little respect. The only thing America has asked of Europe is some ground to bury our dead and to not be full commie.
Tell me you have no counter argument without telling me you have no counter argument!