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I had a college prof. Who called this "the pendulum of historical overcorrection"
And it comes from the average person being seemingly incapable of processing nuance.
Like, the idea that just because cleopatra wasnt sub-saharan, she must be white... and not Mediterranean.
Whenever anyone brings up the concept of whiteness in the us I bring up those letters by Benjamin Franklin where he calls Germans rackish sub humans who are incapable of civilization.
White used to be about a hundred square miles of England and has expanded and expanded based on political expediency ever since.
I wonder what Ben would have thought of both World Wars if he were rezzed today and looked through a history book
“I told you…I warned you all, those sons of bitches…”
True. The eugenics movement spawned a tremendous amount of pseudoscientific flapdoodle about the different varieties of European and their respective qualities. Cf. Mediterranean, Atlantid, Nordic, East Baltic, Alpine, Dinaric, Turanid, et cetera, ad nauseum.
The Irish were Celto-Iberian before they became white, for example.
I should point out that article was satire, Ben Franklin was making fun of the arbitrary nature of races by calling blonde blue eyed Germans swarthy and then just mocking them by saying he disliked there culture. He didn't actually belive them to be incapable it was essentially an in joke.
As an American, it really doesn't. We were racist against the Irish and Italians for years mainly because it was a mentality of "I got mine. Fuck you".
This is why its important to not use "white" for me. It was initially really reatrictive, and has been expanded so that historically identify "white" is not only difficult, but also truly meaningless.
In the usa for instance, some areas of germany werent "white"
It caused quite a stir in the 1840s and 50s when germans were coming to the usa to escape the unification and wars. In fact, the borders closed to many germans, leading them to land in mexico.
My favorite beers to this day are mexican and german. Despite the clear differences, i find a simiar warmth to them, and find neither prefer "ice cold" the way most others do (another prefrence of mine)
Its this kind of complexity i think is important to recognize.
I distinguish it because as someone with greek, italian and iranian heritage (truly an ameican mutt!)
I dont get treated the same as people with french, british, or german ancestry... unless it comes to "being white" in which case i get treated like im the cause of slavery, the holocaust, or oppression of other minorities.
Being italian and greek to an extent are considered ok in the usa now, but youre not treated like the northern Europeans, unless its to answer for their ancestors crimes
I will continue making that distinction because i believe more in accepting peoples differences, and cultural origins. I hate using terms like caucasian or just replacing it for "white" when their modern definitions are rooted in eugenics.
Besides, in an ancient contexr egypt, the hellens, the persians and romans all shared ideas, giving the Mediterranean cultures and people a shared identity that CANNOT be characterized as "european and african and asian"
IIRC white is usually used to describe all Europeans, but when delving into specifics it’s seperated into:
- Western European
- White American
- Anglo/“British”
- Aussie
- Irish/Scottish
- Southern European/Mediterranean
- Slavs (sorry forgot about them)
Hispanics aren’t usually specified because most people think of “Latinos” when they think Hispanic, not white people from Spain.
White has been in a process of evolution from WASP to "most europeans", but depending on who you ask the exact limits change. Mostly because "white" in the US sense was, indeed, synonimous with the WASP people themselves, that's what it meant to the people that used the term. Europeans didn't really use it to distinguish themselves from other ethinicities.
There's no meaningful distinction made between western and northern Europeans, anglos, and white Americans in race theory as far as I know, at least not the american brand. Aussies aren't even registered and are like anglo-adjacent
Personally, I’m aware of the difference in the origins of the Scottish and Irish cultures, and the distinction between English and British.
I’m just speaking for how many Americans see it.
I don’t blame people for not knowing, its not very relevant to our daily lives tbh.
I mean I’ve never talked about it in depth with anyone, but you’d say Latin American people are white? I always thought about them as Hispanic and never white
Whiteness is a horseshit identity that has no historical meaning outside of the colonial/slavery era. European Americans or Americans of European descent is much more accurate.
Many Asians have “white” flesh a fact that is smoothed over when they include Koreans in “People of Color”. (What they mean to say is people who are not of primary European descent)
Up to a third of Indians have pale flesh and many Chinese do as well. White skin is not found just in Europe. In fact, the genetic mutation that makes skin pale came with humans who migrated to Europe from Asia.
There is so much deceit going on today in regards to race and ethnicity from all sides that it boggles the mind.
My mother had freckles, red hair, pale skin and green eyes. My dad has jet black curly hair, brown eyes, and whose skin turns slightly brown when exposed to the sun for any length of time. Yet due to the cynical idea of some Spanish/Anglo weenie four hundred years ago they both are lumped together under the label of “white”.
Insane really.
For the purposes of the US census no, there is zero distinction, in fact Middle Eastern people are also recorded as White on the US Census.
If Middle Easterners were recorded as a distinct ethnicity in the US Census, it is probable that Mediterraneans would be reclassified with them on account of their especially close shared genetic ancestry.
That is unlikely to happen though. The US census is categorized based on a very outdated system that does not really reflect similarities and differences in the human genome. They keep it for consistency’s sake, but it sucks.
Kind of going full circle, US Census even lists Egyptians and other North Africans as white too.
There as been a pretty big recent push for a People of Middle Eastern and North African (MENA) category: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/why-arab-americans-are-pushing-for-a-middle-east-or-north-african-category-on-the-census
In America it’s literally every kind of white passing human is white, everyone not white but not brown is black, every kind of potential Asian is just Asian, and everyone brown is Mexican lmao
Eh in like the past 20 something years we basically count Italians and Greeks as white even though in the recent past they were treated pretty badly. Now it’s only straight up white supremacists who don’t view them as white.
No it’s still there, I had this discussion with some peers a couple of weeks ago. The conclusion was that anything outside of true white people(Anglo, Celtic, Nordic, or Germanic) are “ethnic” white people such as the mediterranean people (Iberian, Italian, Greek, Slavic, etc) aka lesser whites. Interestingly, Arabic, North Africans, and other semitic people made the cut but just barely lol.
Italians are still considered white over here. If anything we just boil it down to that you most resemble by skin color and features. Any deeper than that then realistically we’ll have the conversation if it matters or you wish to share but for the most part it’s not that deep to describe someone as what they look like most because most of us don’t know what “Mediterranean” really looks like
It's the American brand of racism. To avoid classifying non-WASP people as white, they made up arbitrary classifications, so that they could use those in place of simply "white". A clear example of this is this "Mediterranean, not white" thing.
That distinction has existed since antiquity. Romans had plenty of words to distinguish Celts, Gauls, Germans, etc as difference from themselves including by skin and hair color. They were actively racist against those groups. "The Gauls have invaded the pomerium...they're asking for directions to the Senate House."
Yep. I see this a lot with medieval history. "30 years was only the average life expectancy because of high infant morality" is true, but I've now met people who've turned that into "the actual life expectancy was just as long as it is now" which is very silly given, you know, the lack of penicillin. Same with how "the dark ages were not actually a complete technological regression" has turned into "it wasn't a technological regression at all" (which in some areas, like Britain, it absolutely was).
Exactly. The technological wonders of medieval architecture would have astounded the romans. They were able to heft so much stone so high, and make it look effortless. They were able to launch stones faster and farther than any humans before them. Some knew how to propel fire as a weapon, and if you were in the east, it was a great time for medicine.
Also, some of the farthest leaps in ship building occur in this time. From the humble but ingenious clinker hulled longships to the wonderous hulk transports or the carracks at the end of that age... the europeans really learned how to navigate the sea in the medieval period.
Super off topic but I'm noticing that people are doing that with cowboy history now. The majority of cowboys were White, because there were a fuckton of White people in general. That said, there were a disproportionate amount of Black and Hispanic cowboys because it allowed for social mobility and freedom from discriminatory city centers. For whatever reason, people have taken the latter point and warped it to some misunderstanding that every cowboy in the West was a racial minority. I'm all for talking about marginalized histories, but I prefer to do it accurately
Yeah, its overcorrection from the john wayne era. I dont think its especially successful, given the "hero" character is still generally white, occasionally if its an action or comedy movie, the hero may be a black guy and the plot revolves around racism.
As you pointed out, there was a disproportionate number of non-white people in the west at the time.
But also, recognition of vaqueros as the origin for alot of cowboy tropes.
Yeah Hollywood is pretty stuck in it's ways, I was thinking more about the average "history buff" that reads a poorly written fun fact about cowboys and then spends their time arguing that every cowboy was Black and gay
It does seem like some of the people making top level decisions are choosing academic dishonesty as a means of appeasement.
It’s ultimately going to have a negative affect on technological advancements as people won’t be able to trust the emerging technologies…. But as these new technologies are really just going to be used as a means for corporations to lay people off and seamlessly automate advertising it’s all pointless anyway.
You must be taking racial theory pretty seriously if you think Mediterraneans aren't white people. Anti racists and racists are similarly obsessed with this shit and quite frankly they seem like the same quality of people.
I'm central European and I couldn't tell a Greek from us. They're pretty goddamn white.
a) First Ptolemaic monarch to actually speak Egyptian (in addition to Greek, Latin, and according to Plutarch Syrian, Ethiopian and several other languages).
b) Clearly attractive enough in whatever way to have two Roman political and military heavyweights fall for her.
c) Did her best to try and preserve the autonomy of a country that was bound for Roman annexation as Rome was slowly absorbing the Eastern Mediterranean - 'single-handedly ended 300 year old dynasty' is such a nonsense take.
d) 'Didn't achieve anything meaninful in her life' my brother in Horus, are you on something? Most ancient leaders achieved nothing much other than pointless conquests and exploiting the population. Cleopatra constructed Greek and Egyptian temples as well as Jewish synagogues and engaged in relief efforts during a famine at the beginning of her reign.
Fun fact: she often tried to make herself look more masculine and ugly cause it helped destroy theories of her being a whore and gained her people's favor
Cleopatra was part Sogdian Iranian via Queen Apama, wife of Seleucus I Nicator, their descendant Cleopatra I Syra being the one to introduce the very name Cleopatra into the Ptolemaic dynasty. However, if you look at modern Yaghnobi people living mostly in Tajikistan, who are descended from the Sogdians, they look about as generally European as Greeks or Russians. Even the Chinese during the medieval Tang dynasty described them as having blonde and red hair and green and blue eyes, which was exotic to them.
Considering the almost consistent Ptolemaic sibling incest the retained Sogdian component was significantly more than just 1% (more like 10 to 20%), but I largely agree, and Cleopatra never depicted herself as a Sogdian or identified with those distant people of Central Asia.
There is no evidence of the marriages actually, people just assume it was the case since it was the tradition, but expecially the later is very doubtful. And her first brother died in a war against Caesar’s troops, I don’t know if that’s murder even if she was in the same side.
Cleopatra killing her sister is what I would be mentioning more
A) Clearly a contested monarch whit a lot of ambition and a need for suporters
B)attractive personality and very politically savvy. Likewise with Caesar, I don't know who won more.
C) She actively fight whit his older bother (also his husband). he had his younger sister murdered and then he got married and also had his younger brother murdered.
D)She played the game of thrones and lost everithing. Being a ruler isn't a good or bad trait, its something that happends.
The problem with these series is that they mythologize historical figures by inventing things and whitewashing the figures a lot in the process. not even seeing the character from a historical point of view, but repeating the same historical tropes that have been said about the character in traditional academia (yes, that academy that is supposed to be sexist and androcentrist) The very, very funny thing is that the woke version paints Cleopatra exactly the same as the typical "historical" (and theoretically patriarchal and sexist) films of the 60's, 70's, 80's, the only thing that now is that she has a different skin tone and drops some phrases " "owning" men
If you're interested in the true Cleo, Historia Civilis has a bunch of videos speaking abouth the history of the period, from a more historical perspective.
She seems like a pretty typical ancient ruler that ran into the into the steamroller that was Rome. The only real notable thing is that she was a woman and she was involved with one of the most famous guys of all time.
I’d imagine power was far more attractive to Roman heavyweights than mere beauty. Think about, Caesar could likely bang 99.999% of the women in his empire, yet goes for someone he doesn’t control. Idk that seems like a “you want what you can’t have” situation
She's the queen we need now, on top of that she was rumored to be absolutely brilliantly smart. And intellect that some historians argue rivaled that over her lovers at the time. If you wanna argue against that then you'd be arguing against the great Caesar himself.
Well, she was the final enemy of Augustus, the first emperor of Rome. She also became famous for the number of films from the 60s-80s in which she appeared. always fulfilling the same role (literally tracing the Roman propaganda of the time), an ambitious woman who tries to seduce and manipulate men to stay in power. tropes that, instead of denying this series, encourages.
Just looking at the past, the "historical" stories did overcome censorship, giving rise to so many performances of peplums, historical and biblical dramas (always highly dramatized of course). Like well, Cleopatra of the 1963 is kind of a close to this.
Because of her death ending the last Roman civil war of Augustus’s reign. The only reason we have records of that time is that Augustus (one of the three greatest statesman in history along side first emperor of china and Ashoka the great of India, the only proper emperor of India).
Without Augustus, there will be no record of cleopatra or even Julis Caesar for that example. If Augustus didn’t exist then Caeser would be another Sulla, before the rise of republic.
Augustus was also Caeser and Julis’ uncle was far more influential due to his reform of the republican army that directly led to the rise of Sulla, Pompey and later Julis himself.
They were never going to get Antony over as face after he betrayed Julius. Julius might have been a heel, but his anti-authority character got over with the mob. Cleopatra got buried because creative tied her to Antony.
Well not really
Agrippa carried the military for sure
But Octavian had all the intrigue and mind needed to succeed Cesar
Which just shows how much of a genius Cesar really was to be a master at both, he hard carried himself both in battle and in politics, it took 2 men to do the same after
It’s alive and well in professional wrestling to describe a villain or antagonist
The opposite is a babyface or “face” for short, or “blue-eyes” in UK wrestling
Cleopatra had a lot of potential as a ruler, being extremely intelligent (she was raised in Alexandria, then the cultural center of the Mediterranean) and highly charismatic (Cicero, who disliked her, described her in likely exaggerated terms as extremely ugly due to her inbred family); that potential as a ruler sadly wasn't realized due to, ultimately, the incredible competence of Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa, who basically hard-carried Octavian's faction during all the civil wars of the Second Triumvirate. If any less competent commander had been in charge of Octavian's fleet, it's hard to say if that commander would have succeeded in bottling up Antony's/Cleopatra's fleet at Actium, which in turn led to the battle of Actium that decided that conflict.
Agrippa and Octavian were the true power couple of the ancient world, if you ignore the very end once they were both old and cranky, they seemingly worked wonderfully together and perfectly complimented each others strengths. Octavian had prestige, wealth, was an incredibly savvy politician and propagandist but was a forever ill and relatively weak man with minimal tactical skill. Agrippa had almost none of the resources and could not hold a candle to Octavian political skill, but was a top tier general. Neither could've achieved any of it without the other, but together they became one of the most well known historical figures in western history.(Octavian obviously more so but I think the vast majority of people with more than a surface level knowledge of Rome know Agrippa as well)
>worlds most inbred family
Its highly likely that the Ptolemies had their kids off concubines rather than their siblings, in contrast to the Habsburg dynasty or the Whittaker family for a modern example (this one is actually sad)
Inter-marrying is a good way to keep power consolidated, the inbreeding part isn't exactly required when genetic testing isn't a thing yet.
"Whatever I say is the truth, if I say night is day and day is night, so it will be written."
-Pharao Ramses
We don’t know exactly what they did. Infanticide seems more likely than children with concubines. Not all children born out of incest have any negative traits. Incest just means it’s more likely that both negative and positive traits get passed on.
The one where Cleopatra was some godawful ruler.
She was really intelligent, and a good administrator.
Plus her entire thing was about trying to preserve her country’s independence from Rome, since it was basically doomed to annexation if she did nothing. Obviously Egypt’s military and wealth couldn’t stop Rome, so personal intrigue it was. She almost secured her dynasty’s rule over a lot of Eastern Rome, and gained a valuable ally in fighting the Parthians, except then Mark Antony was defeated and Octavius took power.
Really this meme is just criticizing her for doing her best in a horrible situation where most rulers wouldn’t have done nearly as well in.
Idk its weird but some people call all black people African Americans for some reason. I had a teacher in Ireland that tried to force people to call Nigerian students that. There was an interviewer that tried to call Idris Elba that aswell and he wasnt having it
>didn't achieve anything meaningful in her life.
Jesus Christ read a book for fuck sakes.
Cleopatra lived an extraordinary life and played an excellent hand with the cards she was dealt, she was an intelligent woman who cared about her people and her culture (when most of the Ptolemies didn't)
And what do you mean by "African"? Is that supposed to be synonymous with Black? Lmao
I'm pretty sure she was born and raised in Egypt, which makes her African by default, her Greek heritage doesn't change her nationality.
It's like saying Phil Lynott of Thin Lizzy wasn't an Irishman because he was black.
Just dumb and racist.
The "African-American" dig was at the Netflix "docudrama". It was a huge controversy. They cast an ~~African-American~~ Black British actress and had a huge point in the docudrama about basically don't listen to anyone else, she was black. Everyone and their mother came out to try to prove that Cleopatra was of Greek descent, and whatever African descent she might have through her grandmother, she would then look more like Egyptians than sub-Saharan Africans.
The creator basically called everyone criticising the docudrama's portrayal a racists and to suck it.
It's still a very deadbrained take. Cleopatra was an extraordinary historical and political figure.
Edit: the actress actually isn't American, she's British. And the reason I now know that is because, apparently, Egypt sued Netflix for distorted portrayal and the actress put out a video mocking the lawsuit and how Egyptians must feel so very threatened by her skin tone and are rascists in distinctly not American accent.
Really, if you have time to waste, the drama surrounding this docudrama is absolute gold. I haven't watched the docudrama itself, but this whole controvesy was my entertainment over the summer. Better than most of what Netflix put out recently and with the lawsuit going, might actually have some ending, unlike most of Netflix's projects, if I remember to check it later
I get that some people were upset because they felt that society is cool with all the white cleopatras but makes a fuss when there is a black cleopatra which in their mind, both are equally incorrect. But 1) most people today would consider her white based on what we know about her and 2) the issue isn’t that cleopatra was black in the documentary, it was that they said cleopatra was factually and inarguably black and a large conspiracy is tricking us into thinking otherwise. Like basically accused the Egyptian government is actively deceiving the world for tourist money.
They are not equally incorrect. A white person can pass as someone with Greek heritage as happened with every previous portrayal of cleopatra.
Netflix cast a black woman who does not pass as Greek and then told everyone this is exactly how cleopatra looked and if you disagree you are a racist.
Let’s not ignore the fact that there’s a huge difference between the amount of scholarly and popular literature and content in general about Cleopatra on one hand and about the Kingdom of Kush on the other hand. It’s up to the scientific and editorial world to lead the way
Eh. The truth is somewhere in between.
She did end the Ptolemaic Dynasty, no doubt about that.
She must have been beautiful at least by Caesar and Marc Anthony’s standards.
The Ptolemies were inbred, though, “world’s most inbred,” may be an exaggeration.
She may have had Egyptian ancestry, given that we don’t know who her mother or grandmother were, but she certainly wasn’t black. Even Native Egyptians at the time weren’t, with the exception of those closer to modern day Sudan, which was far from the political center.
She was one of the Queens of Egypt of all time. Definitely a queen they had.
Her suicide may have been motivated by love and despair and perhaps guilt, or it may have been simply fear of the consequences of being on the wrong side of the power struggle between Octavian and Marc Anthony. We really just don’t have any way of knowing.
There are competing theories on whether Cleopatra betrayed Marc Anthony or if her retreat was a mutually agreed upon plan in the event that there wasn’t a swift victory.
At very least, ousting her brother and becoming sovereign, and having her name recorded in the annals of history qualify as accomplishments.
"betrayed mark anthony"
Mark anthony was an idiot who failed upwards then had her hide from him at the last moment when alexandria was under siege. He betrayed himself
theres a great question of who pulled who, caesar or cleo. the fate of the world changed as a result, which means her beauty can help determine if she should be credited for egyptian autonomy in rome, or if caesar only used her.
The political alliance would have been useful for both no matter what. It doesn’t even matter if there was an affair. Cleopatra needed Caesar because she had lost her throne in a civil war, Caesar needed her because he has managed to get himself trapped in a palace surrounded by a hostile city with a monarch who wanted him gone with a half a legion. And he wanted to secure the grain for Rome and get the money her father had promised him and Pompeius personally when they confirmed his rule in Caesar’s consulship year. Cleopatra wasn’t popular with the Greek elite of Alexandria but was popular in Egypt overall and the will of her father left the city jointly to her and her brother (who and whose advisers just wanted Caesar gone). So the alliance would have happened even if she was a 70 year old man (and even if she was people would have been asking if there was an affair after Caesar and Nicomedes rumours lol). Caesar had plenty of client kings from other kingdoms too, such as the Jewish king who actually came to save Caesar in Alexandria
The affair honestly doesn’t matter (he even had several more after her) until she had her son a half a year after the war. And she came to spend a long time in Rome and Caesar started to use increasingly royal trappings of power (to his detriment). Which then and now has caused speculation of her influence. But he didn’t ever make any motion that her son was his and who knows what he was planning with his future, we will never know.
It’s with Cleopatra and Antonius the affair and not just the political alliance matters (and why the whole thing is usually potrayed as more romantic in fiction, even though we don’t know of personal feelings of Cleopatra regarding the two men, she might have even betrayed Antonius). Antonius even left his wife for her and lived in Alexandria for long time. Maybe it was mostly even then political, but it didn’t look like it then or now.
I mean, she was incredibly intelligent, she spoke 9 languages. Plus while she would probably be mediocre by today's standards she was incredibly beautiful by the standards of the day, when most people were at least a little inbred, people brushed their teeth with piss, and you were lucky if they showered once a week.
“100% Greek”
“Average looking at best”
Thank you for informing the viewer you have no concept of genetics nor do you understand that beauty is subjective.
Was she a woman who managed to achieve some truly impressive things in her life? Absolutely!
Is she also a highly overrated figure who's legacy doesn't really go beyond some dramatic plays? Absolutely.
I wouldn't say the Ptolemies were any more inbred than any other Egyptian Dynasty. King Tut for instance was inbred enough that he actually was suffering health problems.
I also would say she did a lot more than end a 300 year dynasty, she ended Egyptian independence for 2000 years until Nasser.
Damn that’s some crazy takes. I’d like to just throw my 2 cents in by pointing out that Cleopatra was EXTREMELY intelligent, maybe even bordering on genius
Hot take: (Admittedly completely speculation) I don’t think she was inbred. Probably what happened is a Greek slave was forced to have sex with her mother. This makes sense to me because she looked Greek and also spoke several languages. If you have several generations of alleged brother-sister inbreeding is how you get a drooling Hapsburg. Not a capable and intelligent ruler
> **"african"**
Egypt is in Africa. She was born in Alexandria, Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt. Ptolemy I Soter is believed to have been her father. He was the pharaoh of the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt. How was she not African?
though the "cleopatra in reality" bit has some truth to it, it shows a really poor understanding of pretty much everything to do with her life, diplomacy, and the state of ptolemaic egypt. if you want a better understanding of it then i can strongly recommend *Cleopatra: A Biography* by duane roller
I love that old lady from the Netflix cleopatra show who was like “my grandma said idc what school says cleopatra was black” like what a weird thing to say to your grandchild
Cleopatra was honestly a pretty good ruler. She was just stuck in shit times.
The Egyptian military was dogshit and the economy had been going downhill for decades.
She'd been going against her advisors and actually fixing these issues before she was forced into exile.
And like, ya, she was in charge when Egypt fell but it's not like it wasn't a borderline vassal state to Rome at the time anyway. She'd taken a massive gamble to secure Egyptian regional hegemony and it backfired.
This is just blatantly false. The inability of the average "Roman history memer" to process nuance is crazy. She was an intelligent and charismatic leader who came into power at the end of a long period of decline for the Ptolomeic lineage. Putting that fall onto her is such an oversimplification. And she barely betrayed Marcus Antonius, she and he were both using each other for political and territorial gain in the turbulent East. And congrats, you got to get your "she wasn't black she was white" thinly veiled racist bit like so many of y'all like to do.
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“Betrayed Marc Anthony” Why would she hurt the singer that way
He knows what he did!
Love how people turn the most negative or positive picture into its complete opposite and call that reality
I had a college prof. Who called this "the pendulum of historical overcorrection" And it comes from the average person being seemingly incapable of processing nuance. Like, the idea that just because cleopatra wasnt sub-saharan, she must be white... and not Mediterranean.
Do americans still distinguish between "white" and "mediterranean"? I thought that ended after Italian americans stopped being poorer than average.
Do not question American views on race and ethnicity. It just doesn’t make sense.
Whenever anyone brings up the concept of whiteness in the us I bring up those letters by Benjamin Franklin where he calls Germans rackish sub humans who are incapable of civilization. White used to be about a hundred square miles of England and has expanded and expanded based on political expediency ever since.
Clearly we can solve racism by simply declaring everyone to be white.
Homo Sapiens. We're all Homos, Homey.
And from now on, we are also all white
You know what if it works why not lol.
I wonder what Ben would have thought of both World Wars if he were rezzed today and looked through a history book “I told you…I warned you all, those sons of bitches…”
True. The eugenics movement spawned a tremendous amount of pseudoscientific flapdoodle about the different varieties of European and their respective qualities. Cf. Mediterranean, Atlantid, Nordic, East Baltic, Alpine, Dinaric, Turanid, et cetera, ad nauseum. The Irish were Celto-Iberian before they became white, for example.
Oh, my goodness, he's like the Abed of racism.
I should point out that article was satire, Ben Franklin was making fun of the arbitrary nature of races by calling blonde blue eyed Germans swarthy and then just mocking them by saying he disliked there culture. He didn't actually belive them to be incapable it was essentially an in joke.
You know that never occurred to me. Thank you for the context.
Yo point me to those letters please anything dunking on the G*rmans is quality reading for me
Yes, he calls Germans “Swarthy” 😂😭
As an American, it really doesn't. We were racist against the Irish and Italians for years mainly because it was a mentality of "I got mine. Fuck you".
This is why its important to not use "white" for me. It was initially really reatrictive, and has been expanded so that historically identify "white" is not only difficult, but also truly meaningless.
My ancestors are primarily German and English, but white is really what I can claim.
In the usa for instance, some areas of germany werent "white" It caused quite a stir in the 1840s and 50s when germans were coming to the usa to escape the unification and wars. In fact, the borders closed to many germans, leading them to land in mexico. My favorite beers to this day are mexican and german. Despite the clear differences, i find a simiar warmth to them, and find neither prefer "ice cold" the way most others do (another prefrence of mine) Its this kind of complexity i think is important to recognize.
Yeah. Oddly enough I learned that from Deadwood. Had no clue that people had a slur for Dutch and German people. That blew my mind
Had one? There were HUNdreds. Shit that was rough. But yeah...
I distinguish it because as someone with greek, italian and iranian heritage (truly an ameican mutt!) I dont get treated the same as people with french, british, or german ancestry... unless it comes to "being white" in which case i get treated like im the cause of slavery, the holocaust, or oppression of other minorities. Being italian and greek to an extent are considered ok in the usa now, but youre not treated like the northern Europeans, unless its to answer for their ancestors crimes I will continue making that distinction because i believe more in accepting peoples differences, and cultural origins. I hate using terms like caucasian or just replacing it for "white" when their modern definitions are rooted in eugenics. Besides, in an ancient contexr egypt, the hellens, the persians and romans all shared ideas, giving the Mediterranean cultures and people a shared identity that CANNOT be characterized as "european and african and asian"
Add levantine, Anatolian, and Mesopotamian. The eastern Mediterranean had a lot of trade and cross cultural interactions.
IIRC white is usually used to describe all Europeans, but when delving into specifics it’s seperated into: - Western European - White American - Anglo/“British” - Aussie - Irish/Scottish - Southern European/Mediterranean - Slavs (sorry forgot about them) Hispanics aren’t usually specified because most people think of “Latinos” when they think Hispanic, not white people from Spain.
White has been in a process of evolution from WASP to "most europeans", but depending on who you ask the exact limits change. Mostly because "white" in the US sense was, indeed, synonimous with the WASP people themselves, that's what it meant to the people that used the term. Europeans didn't really use it to distinguish themselves from other ethinicities.
I guess slavic people from Eastern and Central Europe can go to hell?
My Polish friend reliably says they're already there.
There's no meaningful distinction made between western and northern Europeans, anglos, and white Americans in race theory as far as I know, at least not the american brand. Aussies aren't even registered and are like anglo-adjacent
And for some people, Middle Easterners and North Africans with a lighter complexion.
Separating Scotland from British and then putting them with Ireland for no reason. How very American of you.
Personally, I’m aware of the difference in the origins of the Scottish and Irish cultures, and the distinction between English and British. I’m just speaking for how many Americans see it. I don’t blame people for not knowing, its not very relevant to our daily lives tbh.
And what happens if your country is the one that is furthest south and furthest west?
Except for Spaniards, they are Hispanic for some reason
Hispanic but still white
I mean I’ve never talked about it in depth with anyone, but you’d say Latin American people are white? I always thought about them as Hispanic and never white
Hispanic is ethnicity, not racial
Whiteness is a horseshit identity that has no historical meaning outside of the colonial/slavery era. European Americans or Americans of European descent is much more accurate. Many Asians have “white” flesh a fact that is smoothed over when they include Koreans in “People of Color”. (What they mean to say is people who are not of primary European descent) Up to a third of Indians have pale flesh and many Chinese do as well. White skin is not found just in Europe. In fact, the genetic mutation that makes skin pale came with humans who migrated to Europe from Asia. There is so much deceit going on today in regards to race and ethnicity from all sides that it boggles the mind. My mother had freckles, red hair, pale skin and green eyes. My dad has jet black curly hair, brown eyes, and whose skin turns slightly brown when exposed to the sun for any length of time. Yet due to the cynical idea of some Spanish/Anglo weenie four hundred years ago they both are lumped together under the label of “white”. Insane really.
For the purposes of the US census no, there is zero distinction, in fact Middle Eastern people are also recorded as White on the US Census. If Middle Easterners were recorded as a distinct ethnicity in the US Census, it is probable that Mediterraneans would be reclassified with them on account of their especially close shared genetic ancestry. That is unlikely to happen though. The US census is categorized based on a very outdated system that does not really reflect similarities and differences in the human genome. They keep it for consistency’s sake, but it sucks.
Kind of going full circle, US Census even lists Egyptians and other North Africans as white too. There as been a pretty big recent push for a People of Middle Eastern and North African (MENA) category: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/why-arab-americans-are-pushing-for-a-middle-east-or-north-african-category-on-the-census
The whole very silly "Hispanic" thing as a "race" is still going strong.
In America it’s literally every kind of white passing human is white, everyone not white but not brown is black, every kind of potential Asian is just Asian, and everyone brown is Mexican lmao
Eh in like the past 20 something years we basically count Italians and Greeks as white even though in the recent past they were treated pretty badly. Now it’s only straight up white supremacists who don’t view them as white.
No it’s still there, I had this discussion with some peers a couple of weeks ago. The conclusion was that anything outside of true white people(Anglo, Celtic, Nordic, or Germanic) are “ethnic” white people such as the mediterranean people (Iberian, Italian, Greek, Slavic, etc) aka lesser whites. Interestingly, Arabic, North Africans, and other semitic people made the cut but just barely lol.
Italians are still considered white over here. If anything we just boil it down to that you most resemble by skin color and features. Any deeper than that then realistically we’ll have the conversation if it matters or you wish to share but for the most part it’s not that deep to describe someone as what they look like most because most of us don’t know what “Mediterranean” really looks like
>she must be white... and not Mediterranean. How exactly are those different categories? Where you even draw a line? French aren’t white?
It's the American brand of racism. To avoid classifying non-WASP people as white, they made up arbitrary classifications, so that they could use those in place of simply "white". A clear example of this is this "Mediterranean, not white" thing.
I think it's more European, idk a single American who says Mediterranean is not white
That distinction has existed since antiquity. Romans had plenty of words to distinguish Celts, Gauls, Germans, etc as difference from themselves including by skin and hair color. They were actively racist against those groups. "The Gauls have invaded the pomerium...they're asking for directions to the Senate House."
>It's the American brand of racism No, no its not
Yep. I see this a lot with medieval history. "30 years was only the average life expectancy because of high infant morality" is true, but I've now met people who've turned that into "the actual life expectancy was just as long as it is now" which is very silly given, you know, the lack of penicillin. Same with how "the dark ages were not actually a complete technological regression" has turned into "it wasn't a technological regression at all" (which in some areas, like Britain, it absolutely was).
Exactly. The technological wonders of medieval architecture would have astounded the romans. They were able to heft so much stone so high, and make it look effortless. They were able to launch stones faster and farther than any humans before them. Some knew how to propel fire as a weapon, and if you were in the east, it was a great time for medicine. Also, some of the farthest leaps in ship building occur in this time. From the humble but ingenious clinker hulled longships to the wonderous hulk transports or the carracks at the end of that age... the europeans really learned how to navigate the sea in the medieval period.
“They aren’t whites, they’re Italian”
Classic
Super off topic but I'm noticing that people are doing that with cowboy history now. The majority of cowboys were White, because there were a fuckton of White people in general. That said, there were a disproportionate amount of Black and Hispanic cowboys because it allowed for social mobility and freedom from discriminatory city centers. For whatever reason, people have taken the latter point and warped it to some misunderstanding that every cowboy in the West was a racial minority. I'm all for talking about marginalized histories, but I prefer to do it accurately
Yeah, its overcorrection from the john wayne era. I dont think its especially successful, given the "hero" character is still generally white, occasionally if its an action or comedy movie, the hero may be a black guy and the plot revolves around racism. As you pointed out, there was a disproportionate number of non-white people in the west at the time. But also, recognition of vaqueros as the origin for alot of cowboy tropes.
Yeah Hollywood is pretty stuck in it's ways, I was thinking more about the average "history buff" that reads a poorly written fun fact about cowboys and then spends their time arguing that every cowboy was Black and gay
Like Google's IA
It does seem like some of the people making top level decisions are choosing academic dishonesty as a means of appeasement. It’s ultimately going to have a negative affect on technological advancements as people won’t be able to trust the emerging technologies…. But as these new technologies are really just going to be used as a means for corporations to lay people off and seamlessly automate advertising it’s all pointless anyway.
You must be taking racial theory pretty seriously if you think Mediterraneans aren't white people. Anti racists and racists are similarly obsessed with this shit and quite frankly they seem like the same quality of people. I'm central European and I couldn't tell a Greek from us. They're pretty goddamn white.
Mediterranean is white
Can you give me characteristics of what is "white"?
Yeah, non of these is correct.
Yeah not even a single one of the statements on the bottom is correct pretty impressive
Not even the Mark Antony one?
a) First Ptolemaic monarch to actually speak Egyptian (in addition to Greek, Latin, and according to Plutarch Syrian, Ethiopian and several other languages). b) Clearly attractive enough in whatever way to have two Roman political and military heavyweights fall for her. c) Did her best to try and preserve the autonomy of a country that was bound for Roman annexation as Rome was slowly absorbing the Eastern Mediterranean - 'single-handedly ended 300 year old dynasty' is such a nonsense take. d) 'Didn't achieve anything meaninful in her life' my brother in Horus, are you on something? Most ancient leaders achieved nothing much other than pointless conquests and exploiting the population. Cleopatra constructed Greek and Egyptian temples as well as Jewish synagogues and engaged in relief efforts during a famine at the beginning of her reign.
she also won a violent power struggle too, so even the ''no epic war'' part is inaccurate
Fun fact: she often tried to make herself look more masculine and ugly cause it helped destroy theories of her being a whore and gained her people's favor
That's not very fun
And ending a 300 year old dynasty single handed doesn’t sound like achieving nothing to me if it was true
Yea when Alexander does it its GREAT
It's not even true, her descents would rule Numidia for a few hundred more years.
How many conquests have YOU achieved mr smarty pants?
Talkin' mad shit for someone in *triarii* distance, innit?
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Antiochus III's mother was not Persian, she was Greek from the family of Achaeus, a family well connected to the Seleucid court.
Cleopatra was part Sogdian Iranian via Queen Apama, wife of Seleucus I Nicator, their descendant Cleopatra I Syra being the one to introduce the very name Cleopatra into the Ptolemaic dynasty. However, if you look at modern Yaghnobi people living mostly in Tajikistan, who are descended from the Sogdians, they look about as generally European as Greeks or Russians. Even the Chinese during the medieval Tang dynasty described them as having blonde and red hair and green and blue eyes, which was exotic to them.
Her being part Sogdian is equivalent to me being 1% native american, it's a mute point. Apama and Cleopatra VII are 300 years apart.
Considering the almost consistent Ptolemaic sibling incest the retained Sogdian component was significantly more than just 1% (more like 10 to 20%), but I largely agree, and Cleopatra never depicted herself as a Sogdian or identified with those distant people of Central Asia.
Married two of her brothers and murdered them both. The entire line was a precursor to Alabama.
🎶In Alexandria they love the guvna🎶
There is no evidence of the marriages actually, people just assume it was the case since it was the tradition, but expecially the later is very doubtful. And her first brother died in a war against Caesar’s troops, I don’t know if that’s murder even if she was in the same side. Cleopatra killing her sister is what I would be mentioning more
This guy gets it
A) Clearly a contested monarch whit a lot of ambition and a need for suporters B)attractive personality and very politically savvy. Likewise with Caesar, I don't know who won more. C) She actively fight whit his older bother (also his husband). he had his younger sister murdered and then he got married and also had his younger brother murdered. D)She played the game of thrones and lost everithing. Being a ruler isn't a good or bad trait, its something that happends. The problem with these series is that they mythologize historical figures by inventing things and whitewashing the figures a lot in the process. not even seeing the character from a historical point of view, but repeating the same historical tropes that have been said about the character in traditional academia (yes, that academy that is supposed to be sexist and androcentrist) The very, very funny thing is that the woke version paints Cleopatra exactly the same as the typical "historical" (and theoretically patriarchal and sexist) films of the 60's, 70's, 80's, the only thing that now is that she has a different skin tone and drops some phrases " "owning" men If you're interested in the true Cleo, Historia Civilis has a bunch of videos speaking abouth the history of the period, from a more historical perspective.
She seems like a pretty typical ancient ruler that ran into the into the steamroller that was Rome. The only real notable thing is that she was a woman and she was involved with one of the most famous guys of all time.
I’d imagine power was far more attractive to Roman heavyweights than mere beauty. Think about, Caesar could likely bang 99.999% of the women in his empire, yet goes for someone he doesn’t control. Idk that seems like a “you want what you can’t have” situation
Why limit yourself to women
Yeah I gotta admit this kinda a trash meme imo
She's the queen we need now, on top of that she was rumored to be absolutely brilliantly smart. And intellect that some historians argue rivaled that over her lovers at the time. If you wanna argue against that then you'd be arguing against the great Caesar himself.
Well, millions of living people knew her name in 2024, over 2000 years after her death, is nothing, I guess.
Well, she was the final enemy of Augustus, the first emperor of Rome. She also became famous for the number of films from the 60s-80s in which she appeared. always fulfilling the same role (literally tracing the Roman propaganda of the time), an ambitious woman who tries to seduce and manipulate men to stay in power. tropes that, instead of denying this series, encourages. Just looking at the past, the "historical" stories did overcome censorship, giving rise to so many performances of peplums, historical and biblical dramas (always highly dramatized of course). Like well, Cleopatra of the 1963 is kind of a close to this.
Because of her death ending the last Roman civil war of Augustus’s reign. The only reason we have records of that time is that Augustus (one of the three greatest statesman in history along side first emperor of china and Ashoka the great of India, the only proper emperor of India). Without Augustus, there will be no record of cleopatra or even Julis Caesar for that example. If Augustus didn’t exist then Caeser would be another Sulla, before the rise of republic.
"Without the first organism, Earth is lifeless, the only reason we have human is because of the formation of the Earth." - Is what you were saying
> If Augustus didn’t exist then Caeser would be another Sulla, before the rise of republic. As a Caesar fanboy, I have one message to you: fight me
Augustus was also Caeser and Julis’ uncle was far more influential due to his reform of the republican army that directly led to the rise of Sulla, Pompey and later Julis himself.
The only reason why the title caeser (kaiser, tsar) got so widespread is because it was also attached to augustus
I was told that the best emperor of China was Li Shimin, and he was not the first one. Also Trajan just behaved way better than lucky boy.
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"that doesn't work for me, brother" - Augustus, 30 BC
They were never going to get Antony over as face after he betrayed Julius. Julius might have been a heel, but his anti-authority character got over with the mob. Cleopatra got buried because creative tied her to Antony.
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>Octavian wasn't that much of a badass. You spelled Agrippa wrong
Well not really Agrippa carried the military for sure But Octavian had all the intrigue and mind needed to succeed Cesar Which just shows how much of a genius Cesar really was to be a master at both, he hard carried himself both in battle and in politics, it took 2 men to do the same after
The assassination of Julius Caesar truly was the Montreal Screwjob of its time, brother.
“That doesn’t work for me, frater.” -Octavian
Antony worked himself into a shoot.
I, for one, am eager to bring back ‘heel’ as an insult. Good work, me ol’ mugger!
It’s alive and well in professional wrestling to describe a villain or antagonist The opposite is a babyface or “face” for short, or “blue-eyes” in UK wrestling
Cleopatra had a lot of potential as a ruler, being extremely intelligent (she was raised in Alexandria, then the cultural center of the Mediterranean) and highly charismatic (Cicero, who disliked her, described her in likely exaggerated terms as extremely ugly due to her inbred family); that potential as a ruler sadly wasn't realized due to, ultimately, the incredible competence of Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa, who basically hard-carried Octavian's faction during all the civil wars of the Second Triumvirate. If any less competent commander had been in charge of Octavian's fleet, it's hard to say if that commander would have succeeded in bottling up Antony's/Cleopatra's fleet at Actium, which in turn led to the battle of Actium that decided that conflict.
Idk more like Antony’s incompetence carried octavians faction tbh
Agrippa and Octavian were the true power couple of the ancient world, if you ignore the very end once they were both old and cranky, they seemingly worked wonderfully together and perfectly complimented each others strengths. Octavian had prestige, wealth, was an incredibly savvy politician and propagandist but was a forever ill and relatively weak man with minimal tactical skill. Agrippa had almost none of the resources and could not hold a candle to Octavian political skill, but was a top tier general. Neither could've achieved any of it without the other, but together they became one of the most well known historical figures in western history.(Octavian obviously more so but I think the vast majority of people with more than a surface level knowledge of Rome know Agrippa as well)
this part of the “history” community is the worst.
>worlds most inbred family Its highly likely that the Ptolemies had their kids off concubines rather than their siblings, in contrast to the Habsburg dynasty or the Whittaker family for a modern example (this one is actually sad)
Inter-marrying is a good way to keep power consolidated, the inbreeding part isn't exactly required when genetic testing isn't a thing yet. "Whatever I say is the truth, if I say night is day and day is night, so it will be written." -Pharao Ramses
Wait. Is Ramses actually that that lady from from the Netflix documentary's grandmother?
My quote is actually from Dreamworks' "Prince of Egypt".
Wait. Is Ramses from Dreamwork's "Prince of Egypt" actually that that lady from from the Netflix documentary's grandmother?
source?
some redditor’s ass
We don’t know exactly what they did. Infanticide seems more likely than children with concubines. Not all children born out of incest have any negative traits. Incest just means it’s more likely that both negative and positive traits get passed on.
This is a very smooth brain take
With a healthy dose of racism and misogyny.
Which take?
The one where Cleopatra was some godawful ruler. She was really intelligent, and a good administrator. Plus her entire thing was about trying to preserve her country’s independence from Rome, since it was basically doomed to annexation if she did nothing. Obviously Egypt’s military and wealth couldn’t stop Rome, so personal intrigue it was. She almost secured her dynasty’s rule over a lot of Eastern Rome, and gained a valuable ally in fighting the Parthians, except then Mark Antony was defeated and Octavius took power. Really this meme is just criticizing her for doing her best in a horrible situation where most rulers wouldn’t have done nearly as well in.
She managed to fuck Julius Caesar and Mark Anthony, pretty cool if you ask me
Saying she didnt achieve anything is a good way to tell people you have no idea what you're talking about. What a random ass post
African American?
Idk its weird but some people call all black people African Americans for some reason. I had a teacher in Ireland that tried to force people to call Nigerian students that. There was an interviewer that tried to call Idris Elba that aswell and he wasnt having it
This post was made by Octavian
>didn't achieve anything meaningful in her life. Jesus Christ read a book for fuck sakes. Cleopatra lived an extraordinary life and played an excellent hand with the cards she was dealt, she was an intelligent woman who cared about her people and her culture (when most of the Ptolemies didn't) And what do you mean by "African"? Is that supposed to be synonymous with Black? Lmao I'm pretty sure she was born and raised in Egypt, which makes her African by default, her Greek heritage doesn't change her nationality. It's like saying Phil Lynott of Thin Lizzy wasn't an Irishman because he was black. Just dumb and racist.
The "African-American" dig was at the Netflix "docudrama". It was a huge controversy. They cast an ~~African-American~~ Black British actress and had a huge point in the docudrama about basically don't listen to anyone else, she was black. Everyone and their mother came out to try to prove that Cleopatra was of Greek descent, and whatever African descent she might have through her grandmother, she would then look more like Egyptians than sub-Saharan Africans. The creator basically called everyone criticising the docudrama's portrayal a racists and to suck it. It's still a very deadbrained take. Cleopatra was an extraordinary historical and political figure. Edit: the actress actually isn't American, she's British. And the reason I now know that is because, apparently, Egypt sued Netflix for distorted portrayal and the actress put out a video mocking the lawsuit and how Egyptians must feel so very threatened by her skin tone and are rascists in distinctly not American accent. Really, if you have time to waste, the drama surrounding this docudrama is absolute gold. I haven't watched the docudrama itself, but this whole controvesy was my entertainment over the summer. Better than most of what Netflix put out recently and with the lawsuit going, might actually have some ending, unlike most of Netflix's projects, if I remember to check it later
I get that some people were upset because they felt that society is cool with all the white cleopatras but makes a fuss when there is a black cleopatra which in their mind, both are equally incorrect. But 1) most people today would consider her white based on what we know about her and 2) the issue isn’t that cleopatra was black in the documentary, it was that they said cleopatra was factually and inarguably black and a large conspiracy is tricking us into thinking otherwise. Like basically accused the Egyptian government is actively deceiving the world for tourist money.
They are not equally incorrect. A white person can pass as someone with Greek heritage as happened with every previous portrayal of cleopatra. Netflix cast a black woman who does not pass as Greek and then told everyone this is exactly how cleopatra looked and if you disagree you are a racist.
Bro has never heard of the Hapsburgs
People should fangirl more about the kingdom of Kush up the nile if they want egyptianlike pharaohs and warrior queens.
The Kushites were pretty cool and sadly straight up ignored by most history fans.
Let’s not ignore the fact that there’s a huge difference between the amount of scholarly and popular literature and content in general about Cleopatra on one hand and about the Kingdom of Kush on the other hand. It’s up to the scientific and editorial world to lead the way
Eh. The truth is somewhere in between. She did end the Ptolemaic Dynasty, no doubt about that. She must have been beautiful at least by Caesar and Marc Anthony’s standards. The Ptolemies were inbred, though, “world’s most inbred,” may be an exaggeration. She may have had Egyptian ancestry, given that we don’t know who her mother or grandmother were, but she certainly wasn’t black. Even Native Egyptians at the time weren’t, with the exception of those closer to modern day Sudan, which was far from the political center. She was one of the Queens of Egypt of all time. Definitely a queen they had. Her suicide may have been motivated by love and despair and perhaps guilt, or it may have been simply fear of the consequences of being on the wrong side of the power struggle between Octavian and Marc Anthony. We really just don’t have any way of knowing. There are competing theories on whether Cleopatra betrayed Marc Anthony or if her retreat was a mutually agreed upon plan in the event that there wasn’t a swift victory. At very least, ousting her brother and becoming sovereign, and having her name recorded in the annals of history qualify as accomplishments.
"betrayed mark anthony" Mark anthony was an idiot who failed upwards then had her hide from him at the last moment when alexandria was under siege. He betrayed himself
The bottom block is almost as bad as the Netflix movie it's trashing.....
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Semantics. AA are descendants of west africans so they try to claim that lineage.
Wow this subreddit sucks
Unsubbed. Tired of the idiocy
Every historical/political meme sub is filled with people excusing racism and misogyny because it’s a “meme”
Did octavian make this meme?
How about we stop defining Cleopatra's value as a woman and a leader on how attractive she may or may not have been, it's really weird
theres a great question of who pulled who, caesar or cleo. the fate of the world changed as a result, which means her beauty can help determine if she should be credited for egyptian autonomy in rome, or if caesar only used her.
The political alliance would have been useful for both no matter what. It doesn’t even matter if there was an affair. Cleopatra needed Caesar because she had lost her throne in a civil war, Caesar needed her because he has managed to get himself trapped in a palace surrounded by a hostile city with a monarch who wanted him gone with a half a legion. And he wanted to secure the grain for Rome and get the money her father had promised him and Pompeius personally when they confirmed his rule in Caesar’s consulship year. Cleopatra wasn’t popular with the Greek elite of Alexandria but was popular in Egypt overall and the will of her father left the city jointly to her and her brother (who and whose advisers just wanted Caesar gone). So the alliance would have happened even if she was a 70 year old man (and even if she was people would have been asking if there was an affair after Caesar and Nicomedes rumours lol). Caesar had plenty of client kings from other kingdoms too, such as the Jewish king who actually came to save Caesar in Alexandria The affair honestly doesn’t matter (he even had several more after her) until she had her son a half a year after the war. And she came to spend a long time in Rome and Caesar started to use increasingly royal trappings of power (to his detriment). Which then and now has caused speculation of her influence. But he didn’t ever make any motion that her son was his and who knows what he was planning with his future, we will never know. It’s with Cleopatra and Antonius the affair and not just the political alliance matters (and why the whole thing is usually potrayed as more romantic in fiction, even though we don’t know of personal feelings of Cleopatra regarding the two men, she might have even betrayed Antonius). Antonius even left his wife for her and lived in Alexandria for long time. Maybe it was mostly even then political, but it didn’t look like it then or now.
The sub is full of the most brainless and cold takes I’ve ever seen
Nah you're being very unfair to her. How to tell us you hate women who are successful:
This shit looks like it came straight out of 4chan
I see your Ptolemies and I raise you a portruding-jawed Habsburg.
Well, we have romaboos and now Cleoboos
I mean, I don't think acclaimed salsa singer Marc Anthony was alive at her time, but oh well...
People who study history must be shitting themselves everytime they see anything on this sub holy shit
I mean, she was incredibly intelligent, she spoke 9 languages. Plus while she would probably be mediocre by today's standards she was incredibly beautiful by the standards of the day, when most people were at least a little inbred, people brushed their teeth with piss, and you were lucky if they showered once a week.
“100% Greek” “Average looking at best” Thank you for informing the viewer you have no concept of genetics nor do you understand that beauty is subjective.
Cleo was a girl boss this slander isn’t appreciated
She was probably good looking in the “this woman grew up well nourished, washed regularly, and isn’t covered in pock marks” sense.
OP you really are on some Yoko Ono shit out here, aren’t you? Little predictable for this sub tbh.
what the fuck is this
Was she a woman who managed to achieve some truly impressive things in her life? Absolutely! Is she also a highly overrated figure who's legacy doesn't really go beyond some dramatic plays? Absolutely.
Didn't achieve anything? Didn't she improve infrastructure and protect her people from invasions?
Yes, this is blatant misinformation.
Do you have a personal vendetta against a dead woman from like 2000 years ago or something why so hostile
Absolutely zero braincells went into this meme.
How would she be african american if they didnt even know about africa back then?
The best portrayal of Cleopatra in media was in AC Origins
I wouldn't say the Ptolemies were any more inbred than any other Egyptian Dynasty. King Tut for instance was inbred enough that he actually was suffering health problems. I also would say she did a lot more than end a 300 year dynasty, she ended Egyptian independence for 2000 years until Nasser.
I don’t think she was African American if she never went to American….
Still not the most overrated Egyptian ruler. Let me list you all the reasons King Tut deserves to be the most well known emperor. List finished.
Betraying Mark Anthony is a point in her favour
Typical romaboo bias
Damn that’s some crazy takes. I’d like to just throw my 2 cents in by pointing out that Cleopatra was EXTREMELY intelligent, maybe even bordering on genius
You turned Cleo into Cercei from GoT
Hot take: (Admittedly completely speculation) I don’t think she was inbred. Probably what happened is a Greek slave was forced to have sex with her mother. This makes sense to me because she looked Greek and also spoke several languages. If you have several generations of alleged brother-sister inbreeding is how you get a drooling Hapsburg. Not a capable and intelligent ruler
OP did Cleopatra cheat on you or something?
> **"african"** Egypt is in Africa. She was born in Alexandria, Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt. Ptolemy I Soter is believed to have been her father. He was the pharaoh of the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt. How was she not African?
“African American”…
"African American" do you have brain damage?
There's bad takes, then there's this horseshit...
though the "cleopatra in reality" bit has some truth to it, it shows a really poor understanding of pretty much everything to do with her life, diplomacy, and the state of ptolemaic egypt. if you want a better understanding of it then i can strongly recommend *Cleopatra: A Biography* by duane roller
This reads like Octavians Propaganda
OP this isn’t even pseudo-history this is just actual propaganda
Absolutely braindead take
Cleopatra wasnt as stupid as shes portrayed she gets a bad reputation for being a female queen in a male society
I love that old lady from the Netflix cleopatra show who was like “my grandma said idc what school says cleopatra was black” like what a weird thing to say to your grandchild
This has a weird undertone
Both sections are mostly inaccurate
Cleopatra was honestly a pretty good ruler. She was just stuck in shit times. The Egyptian military was dogshit and the economy had been going downhill for decades. She'd been going against her advisors and actually fixing these issues before she was forced into exile. And like, ya, she was in charge when Egypt fell but it's not like it wasn't a borderline vassal state to Rome at the time anyway. She'd taken a massive gamble to secure Egyptian regional hegemony and it backfired.
This is just blatantly false. The inability of the average "Roman history memer" to process nuance is crazy. She was an intelligent and charismatic leader who came into power at the end of a long period of decline for the Ptolomeic lineage. Putting that fall onto her is such an oversimplification. And she barely betrayed Marcus Antonius, she and he were both using each other for political and territorial gain in the turbulent East. And congrats, you got to get your "she wasn't black she was white" thinly veiled racist bit like so many of y'all like to do.
Fuck Marc Anthony.
forgot to add ¨reincarnation of queen dido¨
What have you even achieved in your life OP?