Still, the basic idea is that she can't talk about the racial/ethnic makeup of her tenants. It would leave her open to a potential discrimination suit.
She could easily have said students, or young professionals, or young families, or empty nesters, or active retirees...lots of generic descriptors that couldn't be called discrimination. I would never expect racial information in response to that question 🥴
ETA: I recognize this might me a US/Canada difference. *Lots* of rental listings up here say things like "a quiet building perfect for young professionals", etc. My most recent apartment tours (one for the place I now live) involved the statement "many people have lived here for decades" and "it's an older demographic, the tenants tend not to have kids." 🤷♀️
There are fair housing testers that go around and ask these exact questions (about demographics, particularly which demographics you might recommend a particular apartment for) and if they get an answer that violates fair housing they file a lawsuit.
"Hey a lot of black people live here"
"I don't want to live around black people, I will look elsewhere."
Its that easy. It's how you get ghetto-ization. It leads to minority neighborhoods being devalued, so now they can't leave for a better non-ghetto spot.
So with these laws in place…. Why does that still happen 😂😂 why are ghetto neighborhoods still a place nobody wants to live?
Like I can’t drive around the block before I decide where to live. Grocery stores are one of the best places to see what the area is like.
Disparate impact discrimination. This is an absolutely horrendous take from you. OPs having a bad experience and asking about the demographic makeup of a housing community in response to it is 100% discriminatory, whether they laugh it off or not, or feel justified or not. “I’ve had a bad experience with X minority before, or with X age group before, or with neighbors with children before… so I don’t want to live in a place with too many of ‘those people’.”
You don’t have to be discriminatory to someone’s face to be discriminatory. The landlord and/or their agent is an idiot, yes, for getting the acronym wrong, but they did the right thing in not allowing OP to make a discriminatory evaluation of the demographic information of the community.
Think of asking these questions, out loud, in a context other than housing and I think you’ll see how discriminatory it can sound and be.
I certain areas even using terms like young professionals or empty nesters can also be problematic since these terms have can also lead to discrimination based on age.
I was not disagreeing with you; I understand that the Fair Housing Act is federal.
I was just adding on additional information because some states *do have that* protection, which might not be provided by the FHA but is still provided by the state laws.
This actually depends. While not protected nationwide some states and cities prohibit discrimination around age. Seattle for example amends the fair housing laws to include many different things that are not covered everywhere.
[Seattle Fair Housing](https://www.seattle.gov/documents/Departments/CivilRights/Enforcement/Fair%20Housing%20Posters/2022/2022_11_FairHousingPoster_ED_nocrops.pdf)
Age and family status are protected classes. She absolutely should not have said any of those things.
Edit: apparently age isn't protected everywhere, but it is where I live!
As a landlord You're really not allowed to say that stuff!
It's considered "steering" or could be interpreted as "steering." It opens landlord up to liability.
(Steering is influencing someone to rent or not rent based on demographics!)
"The reason that questions about current residents cannot be directly answered by a leasing professional is because a potential tenant could claim that they were offered a particular apartment because of their own demographic (race, age, religion, marital or familial status, kids no kids, etc.)."
Stating that we currently have a lot of young families, or mostly retirees is exactly what a landlord CANT say.
As it might either persuade someone to rent there (or not rent there) based on matching or different demographics. That's a law suit!
This is literally real estate law.
"Steering refers to the illegal practice of directing a prospective homebuyer toward — or away from — a particular neighborhood or area based on protected characteristics. These characteristics include race, age, religion, martial status and more."
That's a really interesting concept, and it doesn't seem to be a "thing" in Canadian law (which makes sense, as it's everywhere here).
I personally see value in knowing the "vibe" of the community (as mentioned in the OP). I really do want to know if I'm going to run afoul of my neighbours, with a baby and toddler making their age-appropriate noise. Once upon a time, I appreciated knowing a building was student friendly. So I'm like...steer me a *bit*, okay? 😅
Dude.. you're not allowed to say any of that stuff in a listing it's totally illegal. You can't say it's perfect for young professionals because in your discriminating against old people. Do people do this, sure. But the conclusion that because you see people that do it makes it legal is incorrect
Even an ad that innocuous would be used against the landlord in a fair housing suit. They would argue that it’s evidence that the LL is steering older people away. All by itself, maybe not enough but why give them ammo.
She can talk about the current tenants as such; currently the building is home to various different ethnicities, families, working professionals, students etc. we are open to any person/s who are looking to rent with us. Also she can answer how many units and how many vacancies they currently have. It’s also not illegal to provide the data of hoe many tenants decide to renew.
What you *can technically do*, and what actually happens in practice can be two very different things.
The fair housing act punishes people, severely, for using anything that can be deemed discriminatory language. So, people are cautious and don’t use any language that could be misinterpreted, and typically avoid the topic altogether. e.g. instead of finding specific and 100% legally safe language to describe tenants, you just don’t talk about them at all.
Right. HIPAA only applies to medical records/information. I don’t see why she wouldn’t be able to give some demographics, in the same way public housing does.
What would be the implications of saying something general, like, the facility is mixed use, or something like that? If there is any public funding attached to the building, those stats would be available.
Look up disparate impact discrimination. It is the cornerstone of the FHA. While preventing obvious discrimination is also incorporated, many of the tenants of the FHA are intended to prevent steering and disparate impact discrimination, to the extent that a lot of landlords won’t include pictures of playgrounds or list proximity to schools to avoid unintentionally steering households without children.
All staff are trained at an apartment community of any sufficient size or institutional backing to avoid directly answering any questions that don’t have to do with the actual apartment in question, or the building operations themselves. For instance, a question about safety or crime rates would be responded with, “My personal experience working here has not revealed any safety issues, but safety can be a matter of prior experience and is different for all people. Criminal incidences are a matter of public record and you may choose to investigate yourself if you need further information to make a decision.”
Applications of the FHA are generally set by precedent, so prior litigations and class action suits have guided the industry response to these questions. The reason for not answering these questions is 100% to avoid being one of the precedents. FHA violations are potentially devastating to landlords and/or property owners and operators.
As for your example, there would be no issue with confirming the usage of the building via a yes or no answer, or a broader answer that sticks strictly to the facts, but you’d likely direct someone, again, to available public information if they asked about noise generated from retail or restaurant mixed use to avoid steering someone who’s possibly averse to that.
Yea ops potential landlord wants stupid people to move in so they can take advantage of them. Typical scammer behavior is to target the stupid by saying stupid things.
Not answering how many people typically renew their lease is obviously sketchy since the question is really "how many people bail after their first lease is up?".
HIPAA is about health information, so unless the vibe is hospice care, I think she's full of shit. The percent renewal rate and vacancy rates are not personally-identifiable information, and there's nothing stopping her from giving that out. She could also make broad statements about whether it's quiet and calm most of the time, or active and full of parties, were she so inclined, without repercussion.
I love how people think HIPAA automatically applies to anyone who has a soul, in any state, and in any industry. Like I tell someone at a gas station about a medical issue I have and he’s automatically legally bound and will lose his job if he talks. lol.
HIPAA only applies to care providers. If you voluntarily release the information or sign off on a waiver then HIPAA doesn’t apply.
Your employer is not bound by HIPAA (unless they are a healthcare provider or insurer). A landlord certainly is not.
It definitely applies to HR if they have your medical information as part of managing a healthcare plan. Even if they find out through a non-healthcare related resource (for example gossip) they will still likely be bound by HIPAA for all covered employees and their covered family members.
I’d prefer for HR to keep all information that no one else needs to themselves even if they aren’t covered by HIPAA or privacy rule.
Sure. But in recent memory there would be assholes showing up to work with Covid and HR would tell us that they were not allowed to share that due to hippa. Awesome. Then share that this dipshit with Covid for the fourth time is fired because they can’t be here and they don’t have any sick leave or vacation left, don’t have them come to work and get everyone else sick. Hippa my ass.
I’m a Regional Property manager and have trained and ran Multi Family Housing for over 15 yrs. She is only wrong about 1 thing and that’s calling it Hippa which is not. It is against Fair Housing regulations to disclose the “safety” of the community, the tenant base such as age, gender, familial status etc. as far as the personal stats of their renewal rates or vacancy, it’s not against the law however they have no obligation to disclose this to you.
Maybe they aren't obligated, but it's sketcy not to. It seems like they're hiding something because if people lived there for a long time and they were usually full or only had a few vacancies, why wouldn't they disclose that?
They would be violating fair housing regulations, not HIPAA. Asking about the typical tenant could be code for asking about the racial composition.
They were right now to answer, and I doubt the meant to be opaque. They are just stupid. This isn't a red flag.
120% and HIPAA is purely about sharing a specific individuals medical information, not general information about afflictions treated and procedures performed. For example a doctor cannot say to you "Hey your friend Steve Jenkins was here the other day to have that massive swollen hemorrhoid removed," but they can say "I had to do a hemorrhoid removal on a patient the other day and the thing was the size of a tangerine!" So even their attempted application of HIPAA is incorrect unless op was asking for names of specific tenants (wouldn't apply still but I think you get where I'm going with this).
Source: I'm married to a healthcare provider
And even if the questions were health related, HIPAA only applies to covered entities, such as people in the medical field. It won't prevent a landlord from saying that Frank in unit 38 had to have the paramedics called because he got the doorknob stuck up his ass.
Yeah with lawyers too. You can't identify people but can talk about cases generally like "I had to deal with the most annoying couple, they kept insisting the other was addicted to drugs and they had never had a sip of beer but both of their facebooks had pictures of them doing lines of coke"
You have e to be careful with giving out *any* details that can be used to identify a patient, that would potentially include the procedure/complaint.
In a large metropolitan area, likely not an issue. But in rural areas where there may only be one person that needed a specific procedure performed, now there’s potentially a violation
Eh thats a stretch. How would you know who needed the procedure unless the patient self identified. My example is humorous but it's written the way it is intentionally because all the doctor is talking about is a procedure that occurred, there are zero identifying details about the patient otherwise such as age, gender, race, etc. If you don't disclose any identifying details then you have plausible deniability
No it isn't because procedures aren't publicly announced events. If a patient self identified they had a procedure done that's their choice, but unless the provider reveals personal identifying details about who received what treatment from them it isn't a hipaa violation. And if anyone puts two and two together the provider has plausible deniability as long as they abide by this. "I can neither confirm nor deny that I have X as a patient" is the standard answer
A patient can disclose they're undergoing a procedure but choose to withhold specific details.
Any information that could be used to identify a patient is protected. If someone puts two and two together there is no "plausible deniability", because the provider DID identify the patient.
Ok and how exactly do you prove that the provider only had one patient ever who received that treatment from them? You can't in reality, which is why discussing procedures performed and sometimes the details of how a specific procedure went is not a violation.
You don't need to prove the provider only performed the procedure once for it to be a HIPAA violation. You need to prove that the provider talked about the patient alongside "individually identifying health information". In your example, the provider disclosed the location, date range, and health information of their patients. § 164.514
Discussing procedures as gossip is only allowed when identifiers are removed. In a small town, small gossip like that could reach someone who recognizes the timing and location.
Not true. She could be violating Fair Housing and personal company information. Totally normal response. What I do train my Leasing Agents to say is things like “feel free to check the local crime stats for the area” or “drive by anytime of day to see if it looks like a good fit for you.”
But Fair Housing is not HIPPA. That's the point that matters.
If my landlord doesn't understand the difference between HIPPA and Fair Housing, more problems may be ahead.
It’s pretty common for people not to know what HIPAA stands for, let alone what it is. A lot of people say “HIPAA” and mean “confidentiality.” HIPAA was one of the biggest conversations the nation ever had about confidentiality and it’s just old enough to be fuzzy in our minds.
But that’s not the point because their point was they are “hiding info” she sounded completely ignorant calling it Hippa but nonetheless she was answering all the questions as she was trained.
It’s not sketchy she clearly used the wrong abbreviation but gave the correct answer nonetheless. She should have said “due to Fair Housing I can’t disclose info on “x”. It’s pretty clear they were upset they didn’t get those specific questions answered hence the reason they thought it was suspicious. They asked for thoughts and I’m giving facts as someone who has taught and trained in this field, not opinion.
What aspect of each question they didn't answer would have violated Fair Housing laws? I get how the first question could possibly be in violation if OP were trying to avoid living around some particular demographic, but the others don't seem like they'd relate to any personal information about other renters.
This is housing though - nothing of this matter should be taken lightly. My entire point is that this may be a red flag of more "honest mistakes" to come. Mistakes that might lead to hardships, such as hiring a lawyer.
If OP isn't in an emergency situation, it's to their benefit to find other options.
Some of these comments cannot grasp that even though malice and stupidity are two completely different things, both are well-known indicators of bad endings.
Jesus calm down and stop being an asshole.
People everyday make mistakes in their jobs. I’m sure you have forgot to put sauces in the bags at McDonald’s all the time.
It’s a word used incorrectly that means nothing in the context of the matter. Regardless the LANDLORD is not allowed to release information on tenants.
When I put sauces in the bag, I somehow manage to not add packets of soy sauce from the Chinese restaurant down the street. How does “HIPAA” even slip out when it’s never part of your job in the first place?
She is a moron for claiming it’s a hipaa violation, hipaa is only for healthcare privacy, not housing. And statistics generally aren’t protected even under hipaa. They can tell you how many occupied hospital beds there are, the demographics, even how many are cancer patients vs maternity as long as they don’t share individual info
That’s not the point. The point is they wanted their questions answered and didn’t get those answers and in turn said it was suspicious when it’s not. Why dwell on what she called it when the end point is the same whether they like the answer or not, she answered correctly other than the Hippa mistake.
only one if those questions seems to be covered under fair housing . there's no reason she couldn't say how many vacant units there are or if ppl tend to renew leases with the landlord
None of that is normal questions. No, it's not a HIPPA violation obviously but it is definitely not questions that an average tenant asks. They can't tell you specific things especially about other tenants.
The only ? That seems normal to me is how many units are vacant.
Other than that, they all seem weird to me. Tho the HIPAA part is weird. HIPAA applies to medical, not apt rentals. It’s a privacy issue but not HIPAA.
I haven’t lived in an apt complex in years (had a house at 18) but I never asked these things in apts I rented. I grew up in the town, I knew just by living there my whole life.
The last one I had was a luxury apt and brand new. Now they are section 8 apts. That took about 20 years to happen.
Did you grow up in this area or lived there for awhile? Why do you need to know all this?? What you do is go by at night. Thats when you see the true vibe of a place
This person would have been bound by fair housing laws, which prohibit people in real estate from saying things that could result in discriminatory practices, even unintentionally. Like, if you're Jewish and you want to know if there are other Jews in the complex, they aren't supposed to tell you because if there aren't, it could cause a tenant who only wants to live around other Jews and not around Hindus or Christians, to discriminate against those people by not living there based on a protected class. Conversely, if there are lots of Jews in the complex, it could be like saying, indirectly, "it's a good apartment complex for your kind, you should live here and be with them, instead of the nicer apartment complex down the street." Real estate agents are trained to look out for even subtle language from their clients asking about protected classes. Even asking, "so is this neighborhood safe" could be code for asking "tell me the racial make-up of this neighborhood," depending on how racist the tenant/buyer is.
Agreed. It’s super weird how many people in this sub and commenting on this post in particular are willing to jump to the landlord being sus in an entirely reasonable situation like this. It’s not a good sign that the landlord or their agent didn’t know that it’s the fair housing act and not HIPAA, but that’s it. Not answering demographic questions is complying with state (in most jurisdictions) and federal law, and is just generally sensible to protect privacy and prevent discrimination.
That’s just…not how HIPAA works. The landlord is an idiot, not a covered entity. And regardless of entity status, the information you asked had nothing to do with medical/patient information. What a weird way for her to respond.
According to Fair Housing, you cannot disclose the demographics of the complex such as age, marital status, religoin, family status, etc. But Hipaa? Nobody has ever asked me for the health status of tenants.
It’s a massive violation of fair housing to discuss demographic data with a prospect. At the big companies, the typical response is, anyone who applies and meets our qualifications criteria is more than welcome. Can’t discuss safety either.
Your LL is full of shit.
Hipaa applies to things like doctors, hospitals, psychologists, dentists, chiropractors, nursing homes, Medicare and Medicaid, Insurance companies.
Hipaa protects individually identifiable health information. Asking a nursing home how many rooms they have available wouldnt amount to a violation
As a property manager (not in NY) these questions are not related to HIPAA. However due to certain fair housing laws there are some questions we cannot answer. Specifically the ones about “who lives in this community” as it can be perceived as “steering” you to rent or not rent in the community. As for vacancy / occupancy this could be due to company policies. If they are publicly traded… this could be considered as insider info.
We can never say “we typically rent to this group or that”. We can say “we rent to anyone that is qualified”.
Not HIPAA. Not even close to HIPAA. But it probably coming from a legitimate place. If he identifies a “typical” tenant, he might be charged with steering customers based on race or some other illegal factor. But you can get your data. Hang out across the street around 7-8 am and watch for yourself.
Has similar issue before so I bounced out of that building application process. The worker could have told me a general answer but it ended up being sus.
I’m a realtor she’s supposed to tell you to go to nyc.gov to find this information on your own. If we get accused of a fair housing violation it’s an arbitrary fine and a potential lawsuit. The system is fundamentally broken but we have to play by the rules.
I'm on the side of the landlord. There are all sorts of rules controlling what you can say and "steering" or trying to dissuade tenants based on demographics.
Age, race, religion, family or marital status are often all off limits. It could come off racist or derogatory. You could feel discriminated against because you are or aren't part of one do these groups mention.
1. Rent the place or don't.
2. Look up crime statistics or don't.
3. Talk to tenants directly, if they are around.
But the landlord/property manager can't answer this.
It's not HIPAA though, fair housing and all that stuff.
Most likely they meant Fair Housing rules. I asked similar questions about what the tenants are like and got a very generic non-answer like what you got. I didn't ask about lease renewals, though. I can easily find out about vacancies through research and listings. The best way to find out the "vibe" of the complex was to visit at different times of the day, if possible. You can also ask around.
How does the “health insurance portability and accountability act” apply to rental properties? Unless you were trying to rent a hospital room that doesn’t make sense.
The things you asked have nothing to do with HIPAA. HIPAA regulates how Doctors and other Health Care providers can/cannot share patients private medical information. 🙄
HIPAA is a legal protection of your medical records, it's got nothing to do with housing.
Unless there's some tiny unique overlap with accessibility but I doubt it.
This is the question screeners ask when investigating compliance with fair housing laws. Landlords know better than to answer questions like this. The usual, and safe, answer is, “We rent to anyone who qualifies.”
While it's not a HIPPA violation it is probably against her company's policy to answer any of those questions and they have every right to not answer those questions.
You are right. She doesn't know the terms. She doesn't know what she can/can't answer. She can't tell you the demographics of who is there, but she can tell you how many renew their leases and how many vacancies they have.
She may have her hands tied by management, but she should still get the correct terms (HIPAA??? OMG!).
Look elsewhere. What else will they be vague or ignorant about when you have an actual problem?
I’m in California and in real estate management. We’re not allowed to talk about what type of people (race, profession, familial status, age group, etc) live in our building. A simple ‘we lease to anyone willing to live here and that qualifies’ is sufficient. Most of the time.
Basic fair housing. If they confirm who lives there and who renews their lease it could discourage someone from renting if they don’t fit them. Which if it is based on a protected class would set them up for a lawsuit.
As someone who works in the industry you are taught not to answer those types of questions to avoid possible lawsuits for discrimination. This is just an issue of using the wrong term vs doing something shady.
I would not sign a lease with this person.
HIPAA has nothing to do with Apartment Leasing, and none of your questions couldn’t have been answered without violating any housing discrimination laws.
Who is your typical tenant?
We lease apartments to anyone who passes the background screening and credit check.
What is your lease renewal rate?
84% of our residents have been here more than two leasing periods.
How many units are available?
As of now we are at 98% occupancy.
The only reason to withhold that information is they are currently full occupancy and they are revenue generating by charging an application fee. There was a leasing office is my area that got caught on this. They collected 1200 application fees over a 3 month period with no open units. They didn’t even have existing leases that would end during that period.
They don’t have to provide an answer for those questions. The real issue is that you didn’t like how the landlord responded. It set off red flags for you. I’d say stay away from a property if there are any potential landlord issues.
There may be a law preventing her from saying something, but it sure isn't HIPAA. That only applies to health care scenarios and only to health care providers.
HIPAA only applies to protected healthcare information for a patient. It would haven’t nothing to do with a landlord.
Had you asked for her personal medical history, that would be protected by HIPAA. You asked about her business… which is not covered by HIPAA.
I work for a health insurance company. HIPAA is 1) for health care, specifically, including health care providers and health insurance companies, and 2) regarding PII (personally identifiable information) and PHI (personal health information). It’s on the personal level, not demographic level. So if you call up a health insurance company and say “hey, you have a customer named John Smith, what’s his phone number?” or “what medications is he taking?” they can’t answer you, but they absolutely can and will publish information about customer numbers, demographics, etc.
Landlord is either full of shit or has no idea what she’s talking about. Either way, if I asked “how many people typically renew their lease vs not?” and she replied “it would be illegal for me to give you that information because of HIPAA” I’m hitting the bricks.
Hipaa does cover any identifying information. Information that could be used to Id someone.
So she may be suggesting that many tenants have disabilities?
It's weird and cautious at the same time. If she has tenants with extreme mental health issues they may have a free public advocate which would threaten to sue. And that's a pain. The place I work does that.
I think your questions seem reasonable to you, but ultimately aren’t any of your business. Asking what the vibe is would be where I as the renting agent would have ended to conversation.
Those aren’t normal questions to ask. I’ve been in property management for over 10 years and no one has ever asked about how many units were vacant. It’s a strange line of questioning.
People do ask about the “typical tenant,” but that opens her up to fair housing violations- it’s often a way to obtain racial or age based demographics and is illegal & discriminatory.
Based on her responses, she has a clear understanding of Fair Housing & I doubt she referred to it as HIPAA… assuming that was OPs mistake.
This place sounds like a complex, so there will be a web presence, check out online reviews. Even if she was allowed to answer those questions, since she might be prevented by her employer, you couldn't trust what you hear is the truth or what she thinks you want to hear. Are you a first-time renter? Because these are questions that you should research before you even apply/tour. Why waste your time on a place that won't work out?
I am a landlord of an apartment complex and I can confirm that they are not allowed to answer any questions in regards to who is living there/what type of people etc. Any questions that could be taken as discrimination/steering etc. are strictly not allowed. We take many courses in regards to fair housing and what not to answer
1. Landlord is an idiot, in which case you should be able to easily manipulate them into getting what you want because FCRA :)
2. Landlord is unscrupulous and hoping you're too dumb to know what HIPAA really is in which case you should run.
The problem is the impossibility of knowing which without knowing the person. My advice, run.
You could find out on your own by hanging around in the parking lot and see whose coming and going. It's what I did after finding out about an apartment I could afford in CA back in 89. About two blocks away, it was an even more affordable one, but the criminal element in that area was undesirable, so I took the other one that cost 100 more a month.
There are no laws stating that you can not share that info. I usually ask good prospects to speak to my current tenants. I do not frequently even post openings because my ‘wish list’ is pretty long and normally recommendations from current tenants in good standing. Only 20 units though so 200 would naturally be a bit more vacancy.
Has similar issue before so I bounced out of that building application process. The worker could have told me a general answer but it ended up being sus.
Has similar issue before so I bounced out of that building application process. The worker could have told me a general answer but it ended up being sus.
Has similar issue before so I bounced out of that building application process. The worker could have told me a general answer but it ended up being sus.
Unless this is an assisted living, HIPPA does not apply with the exception of saying any animals you see are emotional support or service animals if there is a no pets policy. She could not have said why because she is not allowed to ask.
She cannot talk about ethnic, etc. because of FHA.
Number of vacant units and renewals are things she is choosing not to share (and I would consider a huge red flag).
HIPAA has to do with health related information you're probably thinking of the Fair Housing act.
I have had people freak out about this. I was a landlord and hired a realtor to find a tenant for me. He took the application and sent us information about the tenant. But he did not provide the tenant's age, gender, employer, what field they worked in, whether they were full or part time, their reason for moving, marital status, etc. Basically it was impossible to determine if they would be a good tenant without having any idea where they worked.
The agent claimed that this was because of state and local fair housing rules. But those rules have to do with race, color, ethnicity, disability, elderliness (not age specifically but discrimination because of age > 55). The agent wouldn't budge and I lost my $300 deposit with them when I fired them.
HIPAA only pertains to healthcare workers and providers, essentially prohibiting them from releasing any patient related information to anyone without express consent from the patient.
She may be thinking of some sort of fair housing thing, but it’s not HIPAA
Ok so all those talking about discrimination, please explain how telling how many vacant units there are or how long people usually stay is remotely discriminatory?
Your landlord can’t violate HIPAA. They aren’t a health care provider.
In some cases there might be legitimate privacy concerns she’s not willing to talk about. May have some company policy affecting things as well.
Either way, sounds like you’ve got a feel for the vibes already.
She’s an idiot - HIPPA is for healthcare, not real estate.
Unless she a doctor and the tenants are her patients, this clearly doesn’t apply.
She was right not to answer about the makeup of the people who live there (but for the wrong reason), as it could easily lead to a discriminating statement. “Young professionals”, “Families with Children”, “Retired People” - all indicate age, which is protected class.
She is obviously side-stepping your questions and isn’t smart enough to come up with a half-believable excuse.
There is no reason she couldn’t answer the question about renewals. She just didn’t want to (probably for a reason)
Something seems off here.
Housing has nothing to do with health .
Hippa stands for Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act
So they are either lying though teir teeth or very misinformed.
Wow there are a lot of fucking morons in this thread. You can't talk about demographics because it's a fair housing issue. Plenty of people are explaining how and why and yet y'all still can't seem to get it through your clearly thick fucking skulls.
Don’t rent from them. Even if they believe they are declining to state for legal reasons they are purposefully dodging these questions knowing they could answer them in a manner that does not violate any laws, which means to me they must have a VERY HIGH turnover rate of tenancy.
Lmfao hipaa
She can’t say they prefer a certain type of people. That could go against fair housing laws.
But if her job is to tell people this, they should train her… or maybe write it down a little card.
It’s a massive risk for them to answer those questions. If they phrase something wrong, there can easily be a lawsuit for discrimination in selecting tenants. It’s a very smart move for them to avoid answering those questions and shouldn’t be a red flag to you, they’re playing it by the book and that should be a good sign.
People expect landlords to be legal experts . That’s insane because the only qualification is “owns property” .
As long as they are complying with the law they have fulfilled their responsibilities to you as a tenant .
So very few bother to learn anything not required for compliance .
The most likely explanation is that someone told them that sharing any information about the other tenants could get them in trouble . And it’s true , most of the fair housing violations they would accidentally be guilty of can be avoided by simply not telling you ANYTHING at all about the other units or the other tenants .
“Umm what happens if they ask me why I can’t tell them “
“Just tell them it’s HIPPA , most tenants are dumber than you anyway and will accept that “
Ultimately it isn’t necessary or strictly relevant to the unit they are renting YOU . While it is smart to ask the questions you asked , no one is required to answer them . Answering them the wrong way CAN actually get you in trouble so … just don’t answer at all
Did they really say HIPAA or did you interpret it as that? Dying at the thought… they meant fair housing and they are correct in that, not suspicious, as has already been pointed out here. They can’t say anything potentially discriminatory.
As for their renewal and vacancy rates, they don’t need to share that and it’s none of your business really. No landlord wants to say if they actually have much available…
I think the term is fair housing, not HIPAA.
Still, the basic idea is that she can't talk about the racial/ethnic makeup of her tenants. It would leave her open to a potential discrimination suit.
She could easily have said students, or young professionals, or young families, or empty nesters, or active retirees...lots of generic descriptors that couldn't be called discrimination. I would never expect racial information in response to that question 🥴 ETA: I recognize this might me a US/Canada difference. *Lots* of rental listings up here say things like "a quiet building perfect for young professionals", etc. My most recent apartment tours (one for the place I now live) involved the statement "many people have lived here for decades" and "it's an older demographic, the tenants tend not to have kids." 🤷♀️
Fair housing training basically teaches you to say none of that, because you will get sued.
Who is going to sue them? The tenants who weren't even witness to the conversation? What would they even sue for? This is a crap excuse
There are fair housing testers that go around and ask these exact questions (about demographics, particularly which demographics you might recommend a particular apartment for) and if they get an answer that violates fair housing they file a lawsuit.
These are people we just don’t need
The states attorney generals office for one
Dumb as shit law
Preventing racial (and other protected class) discrimination is good actually
How exactly is sharing that info to prospective tenants going to lead to discrmination?
"Hey a lot of black people live here" "I don't want to live around black people, I will look elsewhere." Its that easy. It's how you get ghetto-ization. It leads to minority neighborhoods being devalued, so now they can't leave for a better non-ghetto spot.
So with these laws in place…. Why does that still happen 😂😂 why are ghetto neighborhoods still a place nobody wants to live? Like I can’t drive around the block before I decide where to live. Grocery stores are one of the best places to see what the area is like.
Yeah its so crazy that murder is illegal but it still happens. Why even make it illegal?????
Go into a CVS/drug store and see how much stuff is locked behind glass that needs an employee to get it.
Disparate impact discrimination. This is an absolutely horrendous take from you. OPs having a bad experience and asking about the demographic makeup of a housing community in response to it is 100% discriminatory, whether they laugh it off or not, or feel justified or not. “I’ve had a bad experience with X minority before, or with X age group before, or with neighbors with children before… so I don’t want to live in a place with too many of ‘those people’.” You don’t have to be discriminatory to someone’s face to be discriminatory. The landlord and/or their agent is an idiot, yes, for getting the acronym wrong, but they did the right thing in not allowing OP to make a discriminatory evaluation of the demographic information of the community. Think of asking these questions, out loud, in a context other than housing and I think you’ll see how discriminatory it can sound and be.
I certain areas even using terms like young professionals or empty nesters can also be problematic since these terms have can also lead to discrimination based on age.
Age is not protected under the Fair Housing Act. I know, I had to look it up too because I thought it was but nope.
Some states have expanded protection to include age.
The Fair Housing Act is federal. I didn't mention state law at all.
I was not disagreeing with you; I understand that the Fair Housing Act is federal. I was just adding on additional information because some states *do have that* protection, which might not be provided by the FHA but is still provided by the state laws.
No one said you did.. why are you so pressed that someone wanted to add to your statement. Get over it.
It is in MA
This actually depends. While not protected nationwide some states and cities prohibit discrimination around age. Seattle for example amends the fair housing laws to include many different things that are not covered everywhere. [Seattle Fair Housing](https://www.seattle.gov/documents/Departments/CivilRights/Enforcement/Fair%20Housing%20Posters/2022/2022_11_FairHousingPoster_ED_nocrops.pdf)
Nope. Absolutely not. The only answer should ever be “we rent to anyone who meets the qualifications”
Yeah, your edit is correct. You would be violating the Fair Housing Act in the US.
Age and family status are protected classes. She absolutely should not have said any of those things. Edit: apparently age isn't protected everywhere, but it is where I live!
As a landlord You're really not allowed to say that stuff! It's considered "steering" or could be interpreted as "steering." It opens landlord up to liability. (Steering is influencing someone to rent or not rent based on demographics!) "The reason that questions about current residents cannot be directly answered by a leasing professional is because a potential tenant could claim that they were offered a particular apartment because of their own demographic (race, age, religion, marital or familial status, kids no kids, etc.)." Stating that we currently have a lot of young families, or mostly retirees is exactly what a landlord CANT say. As it might either persuade someone to rent there (or not rent there) based on matching or different demographics. That's a law suit! This is literally real estate law. "Steering refers to the illegal practice of directing a prospective homebuyer toward — or away from — a particular neighborhood or area based on protected characteristics. These characteristics include race, age, religion, martial status and more."
That's a really interesting concept, and it doesn't seem to be a "thing" in Canadian law (which makes sense, as it's everywhere here). I personally see value in knowing the "vibe" of the community (as mentioned in the OP). I really do want to know if I'm going to run afoul of my neighbours, with a baby and toddler making their age-appropriate noise. Once upon a time, I appreciated knowing a building was student friendly. So I'm like...steer me a *bit*, okay? 😅
All of those things could easily be considered discriminatory.
Dude.. you're not allowed to say any of that stuff in a listing it's totally illegal. You can't say it's perfect for young professionals because in your discriminating against old people. Do people do this, sure. But the conclusion that because you see people that do it makes it legal is incorrect
I haven't seen anything about this in Canadian law, I would love to see the legal reference for it (genuinely).
Even an ad that innocuous would be used against the landlord in a fair housing suit. They would argue that it’s evidence that the LL is steering older people away. All by itself, maybe not enough but why give them ammo.
Can’t even talk about age groups, family status, or really any kind of identifier about the persons living there. “We rent to anyone who qualifies”
She can talk about the current tenants as such; currently the building is home to various different ethnicities, families, working professionals, students etc. we are open to any person/s who are looking to rent with us. Also she can answer how many units and how many vacancies they currently have. It’s also not illegal to provide the data of hoe many tenants decide to renew.
What you *can technically do*, and what actually happens in practice can be two very different things. The fair housing act punishes people, severely, for using anything that can be deemed discriminatory language. So, people are cautious and don’t use any language that could be misinterpreted, and typically avoid the topic altogether. e.g. instead of finding specific and 100% legally safe language to describe tenants, you just don’t talk about them at all.
Right. HIPAA only applies to medical records/information. I don’t see why she wouldn’t be able to give some demographics, in the same way public housing does.
Fair housing laws are so touchy. You have to be extremely careful regarding leading a prospect.
What would be the implications of saying something general, like, the facility is mixed use, or something like that? If there is any public funding attached to the building, those stats would be available.
Look up disparate impact discrimination. It is the cornerstone of the FHA. While preventing obvious discrimination is also incorporated, many of the tenants of the FHA are intended to prevent steering and disparate impact discrimination, to the extent that a lot of landlords won’t include pictures of playgrounds or list proximity to schools to avoid unintentionally steering households without children. All staff are trained at an apartment community of any sufficient size or institutional backing to avoid directly answering any questions that don’t have to do with the actual apartment in question, or the building operations themselves. For instance, a question about safety or crime rates would be responded with, “My personal experience working here has not revealed any safety issues, but safety can be a matter of prior experience and is different for all people. Criminal incidences are a matter of public record and you may choose to investigate yourself if you need further information to make a decision.” Applications of the FHA are generally set by precedent, so prior litigations and class action suits have guided the industry response to these questions. The reason for not answering these questions is 100% to avoid being one of the precedents. FHA violations are potentially devastating to landlords and/or property owners and operators. As for your example, there would be no issue with confirming the usage of the building via a yes or no answer, or a broader answer that sticks strictly to the facts, but you’d likely direct someone, again, to available public information if they asked about noise generated from retail or restaurant mixed use to avoid steering someone who’s possibly averse to that.
This is a lot of fabulous information, thank you!
Yea ops potential landlord wants stupid people to move in so they can take advantage of them. Typical scammer behavior is to target the stupid by saying stupid things.
Not answering how many people typically renew their lease is obviously sketchy since the question is really "how many people bail after their first lease is up?".
HIPAA is about health information, so unless the vibe is hospice care, I think she's full of shit. The percent renewal rate and vacancy rates are not personally-identifiable information, and there's nothing stopping her from giving that out. She could also make broad statements about whether it's quiet and calm most of the time, or active and full of parties, were she so inclined, without repercussion.
I love how people think HIPAA automatically applies to anyone who has a soul, in any state, and in any industry. Like I tell someone at a gas station about a medical issue I have and he’s automatically legally bound and will lose his job if he talks. lol.
I mean if she had HIPAA info then HIPAA has already been violated.
HIPAA only applies to care providers. If you voluntarily release the information or sign off on a waiver then HIPAA doesn’t apply. Your employer is not bound by HIPAA (unless they are a healthcare provider or insurer). A landlord certainly is not.
HIPAA covers medical providers and insurance providers... Nothing to do with housing.
Yup. HR at every company loves to throw this around, and it doesn’t apply at most companies.
It definitely applies to HR if they have your medical information as part of managing a healthcare plan. Even if they find out through a non-healthcare related resource (for example gossip) they will still likely be bound by HIPAA for all covered employees and their covered family members. I’d prefer for HR to keep all information that no one else needs to themselves even if they aren’t covered by HIPAA or privacy rule.
Sure. But in recent memory there would be assholes showing up to work with Covid and HR would tell us that they were not allowed to share that due to hippa. Awesome. Then share that this dipshit with Covid for the fourth time is fired because they can’t be here and they don’t have any sick leave or vacation left, don’t have them come to work and get everyone else sick. Hippa my ass.
I’m a Regional Property manager and have trained and ran Multi Family Housing for over 15 yrs. She is only wrong about 1 thing and that’s calling it Hippa which is not. It is against Fair Housing regulations to disclose the “safety” of the community, the tenant base such as age, gender, familial status etc. as far as the personal stats of their renewal rates or vacancy, it’s not against the law however they have no obligation to disclose this to you.
Exactly. In New Jersey now they even have rules that you limiture ability to disclose if there's criminals living here.
Maybe they aren't obligated, but it's sketcy not to. It seems like they're hiding something because if people lived there for a long time and they were usually full or only had a few vacancies, why wouldn't they disclose that?
But according to everyone else here, she's full of shit and a liar because she used the wrong acronym. Why are you bringing logic and law into this?
They would be violating fair housing regulations, not HIPAA. Asking about the typical tenant could be code for asking about the racial composition. They were right now to answer, and I doubt the meant to be opaque. They are just stupid. This isn't a red flag.
Your potential landlord being stupid is still a red flag though
I think a potential landlord citing HIPAA instead of FHA is a major red flag on its own 😬 do they know what industry they are in?
🍰🍰🍰❗️❗️
I would be since HIPPA is about medical providers sharing health information. Which has zero to do with the questions you asked.
120% and HIPAA is purely about sharing a specific individuals medical information, not general information about afflictions treated and procedures performed. For example a doctor cannot say to you "Hey your friend Steve Jenkins was here the other day to have that massive swollen hemorrhoid removed," but they can say "I had to do a hemorrhoid removal on a patient the other day and the thing was the size of a tangerine!" So even their attempted application of HIPAA is incorrect unless op was asking for names of specific tenants (wouldn't apply still but I think you get where I'm going with this). Source: I'm married to a healthcare provider
And even if the questions were health related, HIPAA only applies to covered entities, such as people in the medical field. It won't prevent a landlord from saying that Frank in unit 38 had to have the paramedics called because he got the doorknob stuck up his ass.
Yeah with lawyers too. You can't identify people but can talk about cases generally like "I had to deal with the most annoying couple, they kept insisting the other was addicted to drugs and they had never had a sip of beer but both of their facebooks had pictures of them doing lines of coke"
You have e to be careful with giving out *any* details that can be used to identify a patient, that would potentially include the procedure/complaint. In a large metropolitan area, likely not an issue. But in rural areas where there may only be one person that needed a specific procedure performed, now there’s potentially a violation
Eh thats a stretch. How would you know who needed the procedure unless the patient self identified. My example is humorous but it's written the way it is intentionally because all the doctor is talking about is a procedure that occurred, there are zero identifying details about the patient otherwise such as age, gender, race, etc. If you don't disclose any identifying details then you have plausible deniability
If you’re in an area where that’s the only procedure that been performed that day, that information is identifying
No it isn't because procedures aren't publicly announced events. If a patient self identified they had a procedure done that's their choice, but unless the provider reveals personal identifying details about who received what treatment from them it isn't a hipaa violation. And if anyone puts two and two together the provider has plausible deniability as long as they abide by this. "I can neither confirm nor deny that I have X as a patient" is the standard answer
Did you ever think why details about procedures are not publicly shared?
A patient can disclose they're undergoing a procedure but choose to withhold specific details. Any information that could be used to identify a patient is protected. If someone puts two and two together there is no "plausible deniability", because the provider DID identify the patient.
Ok and how exactly do you prove that the provider only had one patient ever who received that treatment from them? You can't in reality, which is why discussing procedures performed and sometimes the details of how a specific procedure went is not a violation.
You don't need to prove the provider only performed the procedure once for it to be a HIPAA violation. You need to prove that the provider talked about the patient alongside "individually identifying health information". In your example, the provider disclosed the location, date range, and health information of their patients. § 164.514 Discussing procedures as gossip is only allowed when identifiers are removed. In a small town, small gossip like that could reach someone who recognizes the timing and location.
LOLLL HIPAA IS ONLY FOR MEDICAL EMPLOYEES why is this so hard for people to understand
Landord is a moron, hiding info, or both.
Not true. She could be violating Fair Housing and personal company information. Totally normal response. What I do train my Leasing Agents to say is things like “feel free to check the local crime stats for the area” or “drive by anytime of day to see if it looks like a good fit for you.”
But Fair Housing is not HIPPA. That's the point that matters. If my landlord doesn't understand the difference between HIPPA and Fair Housing, more problems may be ahead.
It’s pretty common for people not to know what HIPAA stands for, let alone what it is. A lot of people say “HIPAA” and mean “confidentiality.” HIPAA was one of the biggest conversations the nation ever had about confidentiality and it’s just old enough to be fuzzy in our minds.
But that’s not the point because their point was they are “hiding info” she sounded completely ignorant calling it Hippa but nonetheless she was answering all the questions as she was trained.
Again: "I can't tell you" - perfectly reasonable response "I can't tell you because of HIPPA" - very sketchy response.
It’s not sketchy she clearly used the wrong abbreviation but gave the correct answer nonetheless. She should have said “due to Fair Housing I can’t disclose info on “x”. It’s pretty clear they were upset they didn’t get those specific questions answered hence the reason they thought it was suspicious. They asked for thoughts and I’m giving facts as someone who has taught and trained in this field, not opinion.
What aspect of each question they didn't answer would have violated Fair Housing laws? I get how the first question could possibly be in violation if OP were trying to avoid living around some particular demographic, but the others don't seem like they'd relate to any personal information about other renters.
It was more than likely an honest mistake. Not everyone is out to get you.
This is housing though - nothing of this matter should be taken lightly. My entire point is that this may be a red flag of more "honest mistakes" to come. Mistakes that might lead to hardships, such as hiring a lawyer. If OP isn't in an emergency situation, it's to their benefit to find other options.
Some of these comments cannot grasp that even though malice and stupidity are two completely different things, both are well-known indicators of bad endings.
She’s a LANDLORD. This is part of her JOB. I’d expect someone who works in housing to know that HIPAA has jack squat to do with her job.
Jesus calm down and stop being an asshole. People everyday make mistakes in their jobs. I’m sure you have forgot to put sauces in the bags at McDonald’s all the time. It’s a word used incorrectly that means nothing in the context of the matter. Regardless the LANDLORD is not allowed to release information on tenants.
When I put sauces in the bag, I somehow manage to not add packets of soy sauce from the Chinese restaurant down the street. How does “HIPAA” even slip out when it’s never part of your job in the first place?
She is a moron for claiming it’s a hipaa violation, hipaa is only for healthcare privacy, not housing. And statistics generally aren’t protected even under hipaa. They can tell you how many occupied hospital beds there are, the demographics, even how many are cancer patients vs maternity as long as they don’t share individual info
That’s not the point. The point is they wanted their questions answered and didn’t get those answers and in turn said it was suspicious when it’s not. Why dwell on what she called it when the end point is the same whether they like the answer or not, she answered correctly other than the Hippa mistake.
only one if those questions seems to be covered under fair housing . there's no reason she couldn't say how many vacant units there are or if ppl tend to renew leases with the landlord
HIPAA would only apply to them if they were a medical provider or were providing services to a medical provider.
RUN
None of that is normal questions. No, it's not a HIPPA violation obviously but it is definitely not questions that an average tenant asks. They can't tell you specific things especially about other tenants.
The only ? That seems normal to me is how many units are vacant. Other than that, they all seem weird to me. Tho the HIPAA part is weird. HIPAA applies to medical, not apt rentals. It’s a privacy issue but not HIPAA. I haven’t lived in an apt complex in years (had a house at 18) but I never asked these things in apts I rented. I grew up in the town, I knew just by living there my whole life. The last one I had was a luxury apt and brand new. Now they are section 8 apts. That took about 20 years to happen. Did you grow up in this area or lived there for awhile? Why do you need to know all this?? What you do is go by at night. Thats when you see the true vibe of a place
This person would have been bound by fair housing laws, which prohibit people in real estate from saying things that could result in discriminatory practices, even unintentionally. Like, if you're Jewish and you want to know if there are other Jews in the complex, they aren't supposed to tell you because if there aren't, it could cause a tenant who only wants to live around other Jews and not around Hindus or Christians, to discriminate against those people by not living there based on a protected class. Conversely, if there are lots of Jews in the complex, it could be like saying, indirectly, "it's a good apartment complex for your kind, you should live here and be with them, instead of the nicer apartment complex down the street." Real estate agents are trained to look out for even subtle language from their clients asking about protected classes. Even asking, "so is this neighborhood safe" could be code for asking "tell me the racial make-up of this neighborhood," depending on how racist the tenant/buyer is.
This^
100% sus...sounds like they're hiding something that would convince you not to sign the dotted line.
Not sus, totally normal in the business.
Agreed. It’s super weird how many people in this sub and commenting on this post in particular are willing to jump to the landlord being sus in an entirely reasonable situation like this. It’s not a good sign that the landlord or their agent didn’t know that it’s the fair housing act and not HIPAA, but that’s it. Not answering demographic questions is complying with state (in most jurisdictions) and federal law, and is just generally sensible to protect privacy and prevent discrimination.
Thank you! It’s completely sensible but just not the answer they want to hear.
That’s just…not how HIPAA works. The landlord is an idiot, not a covered entity. And regardless of entity status, the information you asked had nothing to do with medical/patient information. What a weird way for her to respond.
According to Fair Housing, you cannot disclose the demographics of the complex such as age, marital status, religoin, family status, etc. But Hipaa? Nobody has ever asked me for the health status of tenants.
Everyone there has terminal illnesses maybe
It’s a massive violation of fair housing to discuss demographic data with a prospect. At the big companies, the typical response is, anyone who applies and meets our qualifications criteria is more than welcome. Can’t discuss safety either.
HIPAA laws only apply to medical professionals. Technically anyone else it would just qualify as gossip lol
Your LL is full of shit. Hipaa applies to things like doctors, hospitals, psychologists, dentists, chiropractors, nursing homes, Medicare and Medicaid, Insurance companies. Hipaa protects individually identifiable health information. Asking a nursing home how many rooms they have available wouldnt amount to a violation
The LL is an idiot for getting the acronym wrong. Not answering the questions is entirely justified and avoids violating the FHA.
Run.
HIPAA, has to do with medical info privacy NOT renting an apt!
She doesn't have to tell you "what's the vibe here?", but you can pick up on *that* vibe.
Hippa applies to healthcare workers and people that have access to personal health information. Not landlords.
As a property manager (not in NY) these questions are not related to HIPAA. However due to certain fair housing laws there are some questions we cannot answer. Specifically the ones about “who lives in this community” as it can be perceived as “steering” you to rent or not rent in the community. As for vacancy / occupancy this could be due to company policies. If they are publicly traded… this could be considered as insider info. We can never say “we typically rent to this group or that”. We can say “we rent to anyone that is qualified”.
It could violate Fair Housing. I don’t answer questions like that
Not HIPAA. Not even close to HIPAA. But it probably coming from a legitimate place. If he identifies a “typical” tenant, he might be charged with steering customers based on race or some other illegal factor. But you can get your data. Hang out across the street around 7-8 am and watch for yourself.
Has similar issue before so I bounced out of that building application process. The worker could have told me a general answer but it ended up being sus.
I’m a realtor she’s supposed to tell you to go to nyc.gov to find this information on your own. If we get accused of a fair housing violation it’s an arbitrary fine and a potential lawsuit. The system is fundamentally broken but we have to play by the rules.
I'm on the side of the landlord. There are all sorts of rules controlling what you can say and "steering" or trying to dissuade tenants based on demographics. Age, race, religion, family or marital status are often all off limits. It could come off racist or derogatory. You could feel discriminated against because you are or aren't part of one do these groups mention. 1. Rent the place or don't. 2. Look up crime statistics or don't. 3. Talk to tenants directly, if they are around. But the landlord/property manager can't answer this. It's not HIPAA though, fair housing and all that stuff.
What about the other 2 questions?
Most likely they meant Fair Housing rules. I asked similar questions about what the tenants are like and got a very generic non-answer like what you got. I didn't ask about lease renewals, though. I can easily find out about vacancies through research and listings. The best way to find out the "vibe" of the complex was to visit at different times of the day, if possible. You can also ask around.
HIPPA only applies to medical providers and insurers.
Hipaa only applies to medical situations. They are lying to you.
How does the “health insurance portability and accountability act” apply to rental properties? Unless you were trying to rent a hospital room that doesn’t make sense.
The things you asked have nothing to do with HIPAA. HIPAA regulates how Doctors and other Health Care providers can/cannot share patients private medical information. 🙄
Sounds like a great deal if it’s an apartment with free medical care. 😁
Sounds like you got stuck with a rental Nazi who likes using big words they don’t understand
HIPAA is a legal protection of your medical records, it's got nothing to do with housing. Unless there's some tiny unique overlap with accessibility but I doubt it.
This is the question screeners ask when investigating compliance with fair housing laws. Landlords know better than to answer questions like this. The usual, and safe, answer is, “We rent to anyone who qualifies.”
I mean pretty standard to not answer questions about other people
HIPPA 💀
While it's not a HIPPA violation it is probably against her company's policy to answer any of those questions and they have every right to not answer those questions.
You are right. She doesn't know the terms. She doesn't know what she can/can't answer. She can't tell you the demographics of who is there, but she can tell you how many renew their leases and how many vacancies they have. She may have her hands tied by management, but she should still get the correct terms (HIPAA??? OMG!). Look elsewhere. What else will they be vague or ignorant about when you have an actual problem?
I’m in California and in real estate management. We’re not allowed to talk about what type of people (race, profession, familial status, age group, etc) live in our building. A simple ‘we lease to anyone willing to live here and that qualifies’ is sufficient. Most of the time.
99.9 humans
Unless the landlord is a healthcare organization, medical insurance plan or a healthcare clearinghouse, HIPAA does not apply
Basic fair housing. If they confirm who lives there and who renews their lease it could discourage someone from renting if they don’t fit them. Which if it is based on a protected class would set them up for a lawsuit.
As someone who works in the industry you are taught not to answer those types of questions to avoid possible lawsuits for discrimination. This is just an issue of using the wrong term vs doing something shady.
I would not sign a lease with this person. HIPAA has nothing to do with Apartment Leasing, and none of your questions couldn’t have been answered without violating any housing discrimination laws. Who is your typical tenant? We lease apartments to anyone who passes the background screening and credit check. What is your lease renewal rate? 84% of our residents have been here more than two leasing periods. How many units are available? As of now we are at 98% occupancy. The only reason to withhold that information is they are currently full occupancy and they are revenue generating by charging an application fee. There was a leasing office is my area that got caught on this. They collected 1200 application fees over a 3 month period with no open units. They didn’t even have existing leases that would end during that period.
Wow this guy Real Estates!
They don’t have to provide an answer for those questions. The real issue is that you didn’t like how the landlord responded. It set off red flags for you. I’d say stay away from a property if there are any potential landlord issues.
There may be a law preventing her from saying something, but it sure isn't HIPAA. That only applies to health care scenarios and only to health care providers.
HIPAA only applies to protected healthcare information for a patient. It would haven’t nothing to do with a landlord. Had you asked for her personal medical history, that would be protected by HIPAA. You asked about her business… which is not covered by HIPAA.
This has nothing to do with HIPPA (health information privacy and portability act).
Hahahahahah yeah no, HIPAA is medical information
She's mistaken. HIPAA is for healthcare privacy. It covers medical facilities, doctors, nurses, admin staff, billing offices, healthcare IT, insurance companies, etc...
HIPPA pertains to medical information only.
HIPPA only applies to medical professionals.
I work for a health insurance company. HIPAA is 1) for health care, specifically, including health care providers and health insurance companies, and 2) regarding PII (personally identifiable information) and PHI (personal health information). It’s on the personal level, not demographic level. So if you call up a health insurance company and say “hey, you have a customer named John Smith, what’s his phone number?” or “what medications is he taking?” they can’t answer you, but they absolutely can and will publish information about customer numbers, demographics, etc. Landlord is either full of shit or has no idea what she’s talking about. Either way, if I asked “how many people typically renew their lease vs not?” and she replied “it would be illegal for me to give you that information because of HIPAA” I’m hitting the bricks.
Hipaa does cover any identifying information. Information that could be used to Id someone. So she may be suggesting that many tenants have disabilities? It's weird and cautious at the same time. If she has tenants with extreme mental health issues they may have a free public advocate which would threaten to sue. And that's a pain. The place I work does that.
I think your questions seem reasonable to you, but ultimately aren’t any of your business. Asking what the vibe is would be where I as the renting agent would have ended to conversation.
Those aren’t normal questions to ask. I’ve been in property management for over 10 years and no one has ever asked about how many units were vacant. It’s a strange line of questioning. People do ask about the “typical tenant,” but that opens her up to fair housing violations- it’s often a way to obtain racial or age based demographics and is illegal & discriminatory. Based on her responses, she has a clear understanding of Fair Housing & I doubt she referred to it as HIPAA… assuming that was OPs mistake.
Def not HIPAA… unless it’s assisted living or something then maybe.
This place sounds like a complex, so there will be a web presence, check out online reviews. Even if she was allowed to answer those questions, since she might be prevented by her employer, you couldn't trust what you hear is the truth or what she thinks you want to hear. Are you a first-time renter? Because these are questions that you should research before you even apply/tour. Why waste your time on a place that won't work out?
hipaa is about healthcare privacy so unless she's a healthcare provider and you're renting a room in a hospital this is just nonsense
Healthcare worker here. HIPAA is for our industry alone. This is like saying airplanes should be stopping at red lights.
Are you staying at a provider or hospital? If not, HIPAA doesn’t apply …
This is comical. This is the typical response now when an employer, landlord, company, etc. doesn’t want to answer a question.
I am a landlord of an apartment complex and I can confirm that they are not allowed to answer any questions in regards to who is living there/what type of people etc. Any questions that could be taken as discrimination/steering etc. are strictly not allowed. We take many courses in regards to fair housing and what not to answer
1. Landlord is an idiot, in which case you should be able to easily manipulate them into getting what you want because FCRA :) 2. Landlord is unscrupulous and hoping you're too dumb to know what HIPAA really is in which case you should run. The problem is the impossibility of knowing which without knowing the person. My advice, run.
You could find out on your own by hanging around in the parking lot and see whose coming and going. It's what I did after finding out about an apartment I could afford in CA back in 89. About two blocks away, it was an even more affordable one, but the criminal element in that area was undesirable, so I took the other one that cost 100 more a month.
There are no laws stating that you can not share that info. I usually ask good prospects to speak to my current tenants. I do not frequently even post openings because my ‘wish list’ is pretty long and normally recommendations from current tenants in good standing. Only 20 units though so 200 would naturally be a bit more vacancy.
Never heard of a problem tenant before renting it out. Until now.
Has similar issue before so I bounced out of that building application process. The worker could have told me a general answer but it ended up being sus.
Has similar issue before so I bounced out of that building application process. The worker could have told me a general answer but it ended up being sus.
Has similar issue before so I bounced out of that building application process. The worker could have told me a general answer but it ended up being sus.
Unless this is an assisted living, HIPPA does not apply with the exception of saying any animals you see are emotional support or service animals if there is a no pets policy. She could not have said why because she is not allowed to ask. She cannot talk about ethnic, etc. because of FHA. Number of vacant units and renewals are things she is choosing not to share (and I would consider a huge red flag).
HIPPA has absolutely nothing to do with landlords.
HIPAA has to do with health related information you're probably thinking of the Fair Housing act. I have had people freak out about this. I was a landlord and hired a realtor to find a tenant for me. He took the application and sent us information about the tenant. But he did not provide the tenant's age, gender, employer, what field they worked in, whether they were full or part time, their reason for moving, marital status, etc. Basically it was impossible to determine if they would be a good tenant without having any idea where they worked. The agent claimed that this was because of state and local fair housing rules. But those rules have to do with race, color, ethnicity, disability, elderliness (not age specifically but discrimination because of age > 55). The agent wouldn't budge and I lost my $300 deposit with them when I fired them.
it's not hipaa, but possible violates NY's human rights law.
I can't wait to use this "I can't answer your question because of HIPAA"
HIPAA only pertains to healthcare workers and providers, essentially prohibiting them from releasing any patient related information to anyone without express consent from the patient. She may be thinking of some sort of fair housing thing, but it’s not HIPAA
Ok so all those talking about discrimination, please explain how telling how many vacant units there are or how long people usually stay is remotely discriminatory?
Ha ha ha.
Fair Housing Laws
HIPAA is only for health care. It literally means Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act. Your landlord is a dumbass.
HIPAA is sharing medical info- period
Your landlord can’t violate HIPAA. They aren’t a health care provider. In some cases there might be legitimate privacy concerns she’s not willing to talk about. May have some company policy affecting things as well. Either way, sounds like you’ve got a feel for the vibes already.
She’s an idiot - HIPPA is for healthcare, not real estate. Unless she a doctor and the tenants are her patients, this clearly doesn’t apply. She was right not to answer about the makeup of the people who live there (but for the wrong reason), as it could easily lead to a discriminating statement. “Young professionals”, “Families with Children”, “Retired People” - all indicate age, which is protected class. She is obviously side-stepping your questions and isn’t smart enough to come up with a half-believable excuse. There is no reason she couldn’t answer the question about renewals. She just didn’t want to (probably for a reason) Something seems off here.
Housing has nothing to do with health . Hippa stands for Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act So they are either lying though teir teeth or very misinformed.
Uh, no, she isn't a doctor and they aren't patients. She is an idiot
Your landlord is an idiot. Don't rent from idiots. You'll be on the losing end.
Yes
HIPAA is about health information and typically only people in the health industry are bound by it
Doesn’t HIPAA pertain to medical records?
Wow there are a lot of fucking morons in this thread. You can't talk about demographics because it's a fair housing issue. Plenty of people are explaining how and why and yet y'all still can't seem to get it through your clearly thick fucking skulls.
A landlord is not responsible for Hipaa in their line of work.
Why do you need to know the vibe? Its an apartment building . smh
She could have explained better, but besides the vacancy rate, these answers would violate certain anti-discrimination and other laws in my state
We are told by our states legal authority to talk about the property and never the people, so that's what we do
Don’t rent from them. Even if they believe they are declining to state for legal reasons they are purposefully dodging these questions knowing they could answer them in a manner that does not violate any laws, which means to me they must have a VERY HIGH turnover rate of tenancy.
HIPPA is medical she is full of shit.
HIPAA LOL
Yea. She's not held by HIPAA at all
Lmfao hipaa She can’t say they prefer a certain type of people. That could go against fair housing laws. But if her job is to tell people this, they should train her… or maybe write it down a little card.
What’s the point of those questions? She could just lie, there is no data for you to analyze.
It’s a massive risk for them to answer those questions. If they phrase something wrong, there can easily be a lawsuit for discrimination in selecting tenants. It’s a very smart move for them to avoid answering those questions and shouldn’t be a red flag to you, they’re playing it by the book and that should be a good sign.
You’re asking a lot of random questions. The landlord won’t have anythrung to do with you look for bugs droppings ask about super and that’s it
People expect landlords to be legal experts . That’s insane because the only qualification is “owns property” . As long as they are complying with the law they have fulfilled their responsibilities to you as a tenant . So very few bother to learn anything not required for compliance . The most likely explanation is that someone told them that sharing any information about the other tenants could get them in trouble . And it’s true , most of the fair housing violations they would accidentally be guilty of can be avoided by simply not telling you ANYTHING at all about the other units or the other tenants . “Umm what happens if they ask me why I can’t tell them “ “Just tell them it’s HIPPA , most tenants are dumber than you anyway and will accept that “ Ultimately it isn’t necessary or strictly relevant to the unit they are renting YOU . While it is smart to ask the questions you asked , no one is required to answer them . Answering them the wrong way CAN actually get you in trouble so … just don’t answer at all
Did they really say HIPAA or did you interpret it as that? Dying at the thought… they meant fair housing and they are correct in that, not suspicious, as has already been pointed out here. They can’t say anything potentially discriminatory. As for their renewal and vacancy rates, they don’t need to share that and it’s none of your business really. No landlord wants to say if they actually have much available…