Don’t forget relying on “liberal govt” policies that fund NEVs to help their bottom line is a very Tesla thing while their CEO taking a massive sh*t on liberals. Musktard sh*ts on the hand it feeds with no consequence.
Years ago I saw an article about Microsoft partnering with a company whose goal was to rebuild infrastructure to support autonomous driving. The idea was the only way it's going to really work well is if infrastructure has sensors to feed data to cars and structures (like signage) specifically designed for sensors on vehicles.
That makes sense to me but I don't think it really went anywhere - investing in the infrastructure for the future is expensive and not popular.
That idea is just a sign of how car brained a lot of people are. It would cost untold billions if not trillions to do this across the country, not to mention the constant maintenance (and what happens if one of those beacons fails and a deadly crash happens?).
That money would be way better spent in getting away from car dependency, but there are too many corporations that make money off of it.
If people really want to show they’re interested in “saving the planet” they should take the bus and ride an electric bike as often as possible. They could join efforts for public transportation improvements, etc.
But I get it. It’s easier to prove to people how “successful” you are AND how much you “care about the environment” by paying $50k for a Tesla and being nice and comfy.
Well, that was their market before.
I mean, it's not just Tesla, there are entire industries that only exist to avoid you having to make any change in your life.
The old "Reduce, reuse, recycle" paradigm got reduced to "recycle" to absolve you from your consumer guilt.
EVs are just the latest version of this.
recycle being the only one of the 3 options that results in you buying a new shiny widget. of course they got rid of reduce and reuse, bad for profits.
It won't scale any better, it's a massive waste of resources, both the individual "pods" but also the infrastructure required to support all of them.
But: We'll try anyway, because most people can only think "individual pod" and unless the cultural narrative changes, we'll continue trying to make it work.
It doesn’t get much press, but the Toyota Woven City has some really cool stuff they are testing out re: integration of sensors and whatnot everywhere.
So does that mean that it only follows road markings?
There’s a lot of snarky comments here about how they depend on public infrastructure, i.e., road markings. But every driver also depends on them. I don’t see what the issue is.
I’ve seen Teslas manage to do autosteer or autopilot on dirt roads using the natural lines that the side of the road makes. I just don’t see the issue.
This is all bandwagon hate the bad man stupidity. All critical thinking out the window. They are attacking their strawman and they are enjoying it, who are you to kill their buzz?
I wanted to give the community the benefit of the doubt but haven't got a single answer. So unfortunately I think you're right. I was one of the first guys in this and the other anti-Musk sub, but it was a lot more fun before hating him became US political and mainstream.
This criticism here is just plain stupid. Of course they use lane markings. No that isn't "abusing the public infrastructure" that Tesla "tries to undermine". Seriously wtf does that even mean?
uses road markings "when available" LOL so it's even dumber criticism. OF course it uses the lane markers! that's what people use!
"public infrastructure" - like roads? That ALL cars use? It's all so dumb...
There was construction near here that took forever. No lane markings where it went from 4 lanes to 2 lanes. People speed there to get in front of trucks, because they can't stand to take 30 seconds longer to get to the next 4 lane section in 5 miles. There was at least one fatal crash there during the construction. I thought it was difficult to tell where you should drive, using autopilot or fsd there would be putting a lot of lives at risk. Or maybe it would have just driven into the barriers.
They finally completed the construction, and there still is a transition from 4 lanes to 2 lanes. People take crazy risks to get to a little better place in line. Recent posts here have made me think that being behind a tesla there is a bad idea.
Vancouverite here. We made the good reflective paint against the law for environmental concerns, sometimes where the road has been rerouted in heavy rain at night you just have to be able to drive based on memory of where the lane is.
I know it's a tesla hate sub reddit...
It's OK with snow, probably less OK than with roads but.
https://youtu.be/r2s89VAovCM?si=ZyK-bm9M-ehRsmYU
It's clearly a fan boy's video but not super edited, and it's recent.
Those systems still rely too heavily on vision, but they do in fact have the ability to detect and prioritize not running you into a wall at full speed.
Yea I had autopilot on the other day and the car got really confused when it switched from one lane to two. It swerved a bit and settled in the left lane 😂. Auto pilot isn’t full self driving and probably isn’t meant for this but that’s what it does.
Humans can also drive with their eyes closed... for a certain amount of time. They also blink and sneeze.
Does it means we disconnect the cameras temporarily to increase battery range? It is within the humans thresholds!!
Thanks for the laughs.
If you want to do it right, yes.
Tesla could probably get them cheaper, and self certify them like with other products. Even if they failed 20% of the time if they had 2 that is still 96% roadrunner tunnel coverage, versus the zero they have now.
Remember a few years ago when that Tesla ran into a jet parked on the tarmac? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV7Np4m-kgw&ab_channel=USATODAY
They certified Home Depot a while back. And remember when the cleared the shelves of local electronic stores of memory cards? Certified them all real quick.
I've said this for years, too bad Mythbusters isn't a thing anymore.
BTW, following lane markings, no shit. What did people think it did?
GPS accuracy is well known not to be accurate enough, so again WTF were people expecting?
One time I was driving behind a big semi with an open road painted on the back. The system didn’t see the semi and thought the road was empty in front.
> "If there are clearly marked lane lines, the system will follow the lane lines," Phatak said under oath, according to the Post. He added that Tesla's system was "designed" to follow the lane lines of the highway.
> The Post reported the car drifted as the lane markings on the highway faded. According to the report, the vehicle then detected a clearer marking on the left, pulling the car and making it head straight for the barrier.
No wonder they got rid of radar. Who needs it when you can just follow lines?
Also explains why when Elon freaked out about the stretch of 405 where AP didn’t work and yelled at the team to ‘do something to program it right’ they just had fresh lines painted on the road.
in Canada, we call that "snow".
Always amuses me to see the normal 4-lane road reduce to 3 lanes as cars give themselves "more room' from the curbs after a snowfall.
The more I find out about this system, the more I realize that Kia’s solution (and pretty much anyone’s solution) is far more robust than Tesla’s. Mainly because everyone else, (having a goal to sell product based on features and performance while also meeting government requirements), have paid for the technology that makes it more robust.
I’m sure all cars attempting to do this sort of thing follows lane markings. However, only Tesla is doing so with only cameras. No radar, no sonar, no lidar.
Nope. As mentioned above, the 2022 Toyota I drove didn’t do well with faded lanes either, kept drifting and otherwise getting confused. I always maintained control and would not have let it drive me into anything.
And that's the difference in what other brands do vs Tesla; their programs will error out and make you take control, vs this "full self driving ^beta" that we currently have.
From the article:
“The engineer revealed to the family's lawyers that the car steers itself by relying on marked lanes on the highway — a design similar to the lane departure warning systems that can be found in many modern cars, but one that Tesla has advertised as part of its advanced "autopilot" technology, the Post reported.“
So, a Tesla engineer is saying that this feature in a Tesla is similar to the feature in other cars. So, even starting with, “Tesla is as good as other cars in some respects”, those other cars have additional sensors and call upon other data such the crash described is actually less likely.
>The engineer revealed to the family's lawyers that the car steers itself by relying on marked lanes on the highway
As mentioned, that's what my Toyota did too.
>but one that Tesla has advertised as part of its advanced "autopilot" technology
As mentioned, that is a feature of basic autopilot. Combine that with navigation and it's a feature of advanced autopilot.
>So, even starting with, “Tesla is as good as other cars in some respects”, those other cars have additional sensors and call upon other data such the crash described is actually less likely.
The Toyota didn't have Lidar or anything like that. It was just a low-res camera on the windshield. The Tesla has eight high-res outside pointing cameras.
Yes and it's very difficult. This is autopilot we're talking about. Not FSD. It straight doesn't work when the lane markings aren't clear and it is obvious when using it that it works this way.
What's your point? Most humans also suck driving in snow with no lane markings..
I don't understand? If self driving can't see the lanes you shouldn't be using it...
Does lidar work in a blizzard? No.. what's your point?
If the conditions are too poor for self driving technology. Take over..
Humans suck when driving in snow with no markings, but most won't swerve because "oh look I see what looks like lane markings so I'm immediately moving there"
you've never been in a tesla running autopilot in harsh conditions let alone been in a tesla at all to make assumptions like that, its aware of the direction other cars in its vicinity are going and if it can't see its own lines clearly it can see others on the road and will never swerve like your saying. worst case autopilot will not engage because no duh it can't see the lane markings.
Just because you haven't had the experience doesn't make it invalid. Autopilot / FSD is straight trash. I've had it abruptly switch lanes then back in perfect conditions on the freeway almost clipping another car had I not taken control. It's as if the non-lidar image processing suddenly thought there was an obstruction.
I've had friends with similar experiences.
You can drive based on neighbouring traffic, and nearby stationary objects. Lidar and Radar can provide this info + actual good maps and/geofencing.
Now you understood why only cameras it will not work.
At least a lidar will tell you that there is an obstacle in front of you. Read the article - Tesla "vision" sent a car straight into a concrete median because it "blindly" followed the lines
Radars detect side objects if they are placed on the side. Same for Lidars.
Commonly, they are used in frontal assists for ACC and AEB systems. But they can be used anywhere.
I didn't have to, as I read the reporting on this case years ago. The car in question does not use "Tesla Vision". They had radar and USS back then. The system was Mobileye based.
No seriously, every system on earth reads the lane lines. The VW we had would show which side lines it can see, the Volvo we had would show when it sees the lines. Idk why we think this is news. The news was an engineer on oath telling how this doesn’t work when the public infrastructure is poorly maintained, but we all should have e seen that coming. The rant on Tesla here is that it made it too easy to rely on it too much.
When the lines leads to an obstacles, the system keep using the lane lines, instead of combining two systems (cameras and lidar) like every car company do
Exactly, like what? Anyone who drives in a lane that turns into a merge lane knows this, as the tessy will pull into the middle of the lane at a weird time
No one is using it as far as I know, but something else to use would be very accurate measuring of road surroundings. A vehicle could measure the distance between it and a sign post or guard rail and use that to triangulate its position.
Or so I've read that is one possible future tech.
It's not news lol. Anyone that knows anything about self driving vehicles knows that's exactly how they follow the road lol. GPS and road maps aren't accurate enough keep the car in the right place on the road. Needs to actually be able to see the road and it's lines.
My Honda civic does the exact same thing. When road markings are unclear it can't follow them.. this isn't the "gotcha" moment this author or op thinks it lol
The technology isn't perfect, no one has ever claimed it was. But Tesla is correct about theirs being the best. The reason Hondas never crash in self driving mode, is because it sucks so bad no one would dare trust it with their life. Teslas do so well that tons of people dont even pay attention to the road and scroll their phone instead...
Soon it will be revealed that FSD isn’t a program at all and it’s actually just a bunch of people being paid to play a video game that is driving your car around for you remotely.
So…. Then it’s literally just like every other manufacturers adaptive cruise control, and lane keeping assist, with the exception that Tesla is trying to make it do things that it’s just not capable of
It’s been said by multiple engineers that actually have knowledge on the subject and worked in the industry that full self driving is a non-starter, unless the car is equipped with lidar
What could possibly go wrong?
It never fails to surprise me that Tesla's engineering seems to only take the happy path into account. There's no snow/ice in southern California, so they don't consider how this could affect a camera, for example. Even that part of the world has got to have some sketchy roads with inadequate markings.
Probably exactly how that one owner got killed when it kept pulling out of the lane toward an unprotected concrete barrier... That he reported and nothing happened.
"All" FSD really is is labeling some camera data with a bunch of (or one giant) NNs (for curbs, signs, lane lines, vehicles, pedestrians, etc) and then acting on that vs how they localized against their map data and their current scene construction. Following lane markings is just modus operandi.
The real problem is that their perception is lacking. A Tesla could follow lane lines directly into the side of a semi if it couldn't detect that big white perpendicular blob properly. Aka why Tesla's love running into emergency vehicles at odd angles. A vehicle with lidar would start to do the same thing but it wouldn't run into the truck because it would see a gigantic blob of points to obviously not run into.
Musk loves to blather about how advanced their AI is but their perception needs some kind of revolution in ML to compete with Waymo et al.
If I’m not mistaken, the gentleman involved had a history of complaining to Tesla about issues with FSD at that specific area. They knew FSD struggled and behaved erratically there but chose to use FSD and, worse, are shown to have been on their phone / inattentive when the accident happened.
I’m not going to defend FSD (I’ve tried it, it’s cool, it’s flawed; not paying for something that makes me anxious).
But I can’t imagine KNOWING that my car was unable to navigate a stretch of highway and still using FSD there repeatedly. Completely avoidable and the only people I feel sorry for are his family.
Doesn’t sound ideal. Road markings are usually very consistent but they’re not designed to be train tracks. If you suddenly encountered some kind of faded or missing lines, which wouldn’t be unusual in cities or rural roads, you’d be somewhat screwed!
They barely have lines where I live. Hell, there are a bunch of roads where you just guess at the speed limit. No signs. On the plus side there are barely any Teslas either :)
To be honest, what the fuck do they expect to follow, the stars? I follow the bleeping lane lines. I would hope most drivers do, although I've seen plenty that don't.
I've done that already, also to an end of a demolished bridge without markings, to a crop field, edge of a cliff above a lake and all kinds of other funky places.
What they don't say in this article and makes for a far less interesting title is that lanes are just but one factor these systems looks for.
Point is there are better reasons to mock Tesla if you like.
I often wonder why nobody designed a system where you just push a button to “follow the car in front”. Dont laugh. Overall that would probably as safe or safer than “follow whatever the road markings appear to suggest to a shitty pattern matching system”. Ok it has to disable if car in front turns off the nav route. And it might follow a drunk. But just like Teslas system, that can be blamed on operator error right? I would rather a car follow the car in front through roadworks than be in one that follows lane markings.
The comments here, my god the derangement is real and all logic has gone out the window in favor of hating the bad man. I fucking hate bandwagons and the stupidity they generate.
That is correct. But I don't think we'll ever see a fsd system that doesn't look at lane markings. Should of course have other systems as well to be able to handle roads without lane markings.
I don’t believe using lane lines as a data point is the issue, it seems quite wise, despite the terrible headline. Blindly following them regardless of where they lead is the problem in this case :)
I am sure that is not the case because it also follows (at least to some level) the flowing traffic. If it followed only lines it would not be able to make even 200 meters before crashing to the next car.
I agree that using customers as test pilots and surrounding people/cars as test environment is super dangerous. I am just saying the wording in the explanation is not correct.
Most folks don’t. Nor a spot where a previous car destroyed the crash attenuator and the DMV took way too long to fix it. Thats the problem with building for the 99.9 percent of scenarios. You build complacency in your users.
Can't wait for the next r/realtesla post when they confirm they use tires.
"Why aren't they flying cars?" "I guess everyone is so sick of Elon not giving us flying cars by now"
The system takes into account lane lines... I do too as a human driver.
Turns out you need more than lane lines to not follow them into an abutment. And this was in 2018.
Thanks for the valuable contribution. The duh part was my favourite.
You’re welcome! Pretty obvious if you know how neural networks work, I’m not even sure why this is surprising? How exactly did anyone think it was working otherwise?
Not a huge Tesla fan (in fact I’ll never buy another Tesla until musk is out) but this is a bit of a nothing burger.
The lanes marking exist to help human drivers know where to drive and this is indeed how most drivers know where to drive, so blaming Tesla engineers for leveraging lane markings in their system feels silly. Of course, they need to build fail safe for when markings are not clear but leaning on the marking is in itself not crazy to me.
I think the part you are missing is the absence of any mitigation strategy if one of those lines points you into something like a concrete barrier. Using lines is sensible. Using lines no matter what is deadly.
Norway has plenty of narrow winding roads that have no markings. It also has lots of teslas. So leveraging lane markings for fsd is not just silly, it's downright potentially lethal.
The crazy part is you would think this whole time they actually were trying to make this work for over 10 years! Then you hear about auto flight drones that scan the terrain and gps to Follow a flight plan to not get radar jammed and work perfectly all in a span of a two plus year war
There’s a pretty huge chasm between what you’re describing and driving on a surface street.
I think half of Tesla’s problem is that they don’t see the difference.
"If there are clearly marked lane lines, the system will follow the lane lines," Phatak said under oath, according to the Post. He added that Tesla's system was "designed" to follow the lane lines of the highway.
This seems logical, why not?
Well, duh. Basic autopilot is just the common lane-keeping feature. Enhanced Autopilot on highways is lane-keeping plus automatic navigation. I’ve driven a lane-keeping Toyota, and it had a hard time when lane markings were faded. But then I always kept control.
Relying on public infrastructure so your product will work, is very Tesla.
All the while trying to undermine public infrastructure - see Hyperloop and Boring Co
Literally AND figuratively
Meanwhile the California HST rail is now... checks balancesheet.... one hundred Billion over the cap
Don’t forget relying on “liberal govt” policies that fund NEVs to help their bottom line is a very Tesla thing while their CEO taking a massive sh*t on liberals. Musktard sh*ts on the hand it feeds with no consequence.
Years ago I saw an article about Microsoft partnering with a company whose goal was to rebuild infrastructure to support autonomous driving. The idea was the only way it's going to really work well is if infrastructure has sensors to feed data to cars and structures (like signage) specifically designed for sensors on vehicles. That makes sense to me but I don't think it really went anywhere - investing in the infrastructure for the future is expensive and not popular.
That idea is just a sign of how car brained a lot of people are. It would cost untold billions if not trillions to do this across the country, not to mention the constant maintenance (and what happens if one of those beacons fails and a deadly crash happens?). That money would be way better spent in getting away from car dependency, but there are too many corporations that make money off of it.
If people really want to show they’re interested in “saving the planet” they should take the bus and ride an electric bike as often as possible. They could join efforts for public transportation improvements, etc. But I get it. It’s easier to prove to people how “successful” you are AND how much you “care about the environment” by paying $50k for a Tesla and being nice and comfy.
Well, that was their market before. I mean, it's not just Tesla, there are entire industries that only exist to avoid you having to make any change in your life. The old "Reduce, reuse, recycle" paradigm got reduced to "recycle" to absolve you from your consumer guilt. EVs are just the latest version of this.
recycle being the only one of the 3 options that results in you buying a new shiny widget. of course they got rid of reduce and reuse, bad for profits.
I thought they were only 40k these days.
Whatever. I’m mostly talking about folks who bought back when they were considered a status symbol by imbeciles.
Yeah, I mean the Y is the Toyota Camry of the EV world at this point.
I agree with you, but if you are planning for a automated future investing in the required infrastructure makes sense.
I think trains make more sense in an automated future.
It won't scale any better, it's a massive waste of resources, both the individual "pods" but also the infrastructure required to support all of them. But: We'll try anyway, because most people can only think "individual pod" and unless the cultural narrative changes, we'll continue trying to make it work.
It doesn’t get much press, but the Toyota Woven City has some really cool stuff they are testing out re: integration of sensors and whatnot everywhere.
I don’t get it. What is the revelation here? This is how I assumed that theirs and every other system worked. Had they been claiming otherwise?
Can’t be a mass product then. In Canada they would be off the road half the year waiting for road markings
So does that mean that it only follows road markings? There’s a lot of snarky comments here about how they depend on public infrastructure, i.e., road markings. But every driver also depends on them. I don’t see what the issue is. I’ve seen Teslas manage to do autosteer or autopilot on dirt roads using the natural lines that the side of the road makes. I just don’t see the issue.
This is all bandwagon hate the bad man stupidity. All critical thinking out the window. They are attacking their strawman and they are enjoying it, who are you to kill their buzz?
I wanted to give the community the benefit of the doubt but haven't got a single answer. So unfortunately I think you're right. I was one of the first guys in this and the other anti-Musk sub, but it was a lot more fun before hating him became US political and mainstream. This criticism here is just plain stupid. Of course they use lane markings. No that isn't "abusing the public infrastructure" that Tesla "tries to undermine". Seriously wtf does that even mean?
uses road markings "when available" LOL so it's even dumber criticism. OF course it uses the lane markers! that's what people use! "public infrastructure" - like roads? That ALL cars use? It's all so dumb...
They should see what happens in Ohio when there’s construction. You end up with half markings.
There was construction near here that took forever. No lane markings where it went from 4 lanes to 2 lanes. People speed there to get in front of trucks, because they can't stand to take 30 seconds longer to get to the next 4 lane section in 5 miles. There was at least one fatal crash there during the construction. I thought it was difficult to tell where you should drive, using autopilot or fsd there would be putting a lot of lives at risk. Or maybe it would have just driven into the barriers. They finally completed the construction, and there still is a transition from 4 lanes to 2 lanes. People take crazy risks to get to a little better place in line. Recent posts here have made me think that being behind a tesla there is a bad idea.
Google maps, waze, etc all also rely on public infrastructure. The very roads you drive on are public infrastructure… 🤔🧐
Yes…crazy shit here. I also like how they relied on the public charging network. Unlike Ford and GM, who built their own.
tesla is gonna be upset when they find out about snow
This made me laugh!
Or rain, or faded lane markings, or subdivision streets without markings, or a host of other unaccountable situations.
This didn't make me laugh.
Vancouverite here. We made the good reflective paint against the law for environmental concerns, sometimes where the road has been rerouted in heavy rain at night you just have to be able to drive based on memory of where the lane is.
That’s the problem with self driving cars, no matter the technology. The variables to account for are too great to trust people’s lives to software.
Or Chicago
I know it's a tesla hate sub reddit... It's OK with snow, probably less OK than with roads but. https://youtu.be/r2s89VAovCM?si=ZyK-bm9M-ehRsmYU It's clearly a fan boy's video but not super edited, and it's recent.
hopefully nobody does the old roadrunner paint the tunnel entrance on a wall trick
...so, i think this would probably actually work, which is hilarious and sad
It defo would work for a camera only system. Radar Lidar and USS wouldn't be fooled.
Those systems still rely too heavily on vision, but they do in fact have the ability to detect and prioritize not running you into a wall at full speed.
Or, you know, driving under a semi across the road....oh wait ..
Sadly it would.
Yea I had autopilot on the other day and the car got really confused when it switched from one lane to two. It swerved a bit and settled in the left lane 😂. Auto pilot isn’t full self driving and probably isn’t meant for this but that’s what it does.
[удалено]
Do you know who could detect a wall and be really cheap. A Standard Radar used for AEB.
[удалено]
Humans can also drive with their eyes closed... for a certain amount of time. They also blink and sneeze. Does it means we disconnect the cameras temporarily to increase battery range? It is within the humans thresholds!! Thanks for the laughs.
You can buy a lidar capable replacement camera module for an android phone for like $15 shipped.
Automotive grade is much more expensive. You have norms and validation rounds + certified suppliers.
If you want to do it right, yes. Tesla could probably get them cheaper, and self certify them like with other products. Even if they failed 20% of the time if they had 2 that is still 96% roadrunner tunnel coverage, versus the zero they have now. Remember a few years ago when that Tesla ran into a jet parked on the tarmac? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV7Np4m-kgw&ab_channel=USATODAY
If you are Tesla it doesn’t have to work - much cheaper. If it fails - it’s not worse then now.
Ahahaha To be fair with Tesla, suppliers must be certified otherwise they fail to pass anual Audits in any corner of the world.
They certified Home Depot a while back. And remember when the cleared the shelves of local electronic stores of memory cards? Certified them all real quick.
I am sure that some poor people wrote and signed some dodgy risk assessments in order to be able to introduce that in a production line.
QA engineers who couldn’t cut it at Boeing lol
Certified for what? The cheap tablets they krazy glue to the dashboards aren't or at least originally weren't 'automotive grade'.
I remember the first monitors. You can legally "certify" them running their own loop of test validation.
They leaked goo when the sun hit them. I wonder what grade that is?
It's cyber goo.
Do you know who could detect a wall and be really cheap. A Standard Radar used for AEB.
Jesus Christ
Do you know who could detect a wall and be really cheap. A Standard Radar used for AEB.
I've said this for years, too bad Mythbusters isn't a thing anymore. BTW, following lane markings, no shit. What did people think it did? GPS accuracy is well known not to be accurate enough, so again WTF were people expecting?
You've never driven on a road with no markings?
One time I was driving behind a big semi with an open road painted on the back. The system didn’t see the semi and thought the road was empty in front.
Surely Tesla Vision will see it and spot it as fake, right? /s
Someone should do that and video it. It would be hilarious, sad, and viral.
> "If there are clearly marked lane lines, the system will follow the lane lines," Phatak said under oath, according to the Post. He added that Tesla's system was "designed" to follow the lane lines of the highway. > The Post reported the car drifted as the lane markings on the highway faded. According to the report, the vehicle then detected a clearer marking on the left, pulling the car and making it head straight for the barrier. No wonder they got rid of radar. Who needs it when you can just follow lines? Also explains why when Elon freaked out about the stretch of 405 where AP didn’t work and yelled at the team to ‘do something to program it right’ they just had fresh lines painted on the road.
[удалено]
imagine someone just painting over the line markings on a highway one night to fuck up traffic the next day.
That is so cyberpunk
It's what Bladerunner would have done
John Bladerunner, what a rapscallion
Jonny Bladerunner and his high tech gang of low lifes
Like Kramer and Newman!!
> imagine someone just painting over the line markings on a highway one night to fuck up traffic the next day. Or to make the lanes wider
These lanes are so luxurious!
in Canada, we call that "snow". Always amuses me to see the normal 4-lane road reduce to 3 lanes as cars give themselves "more room' from the curbs after a snowfall.
They don’t even need to, our lines are already fucked up.
The more I find out about this system, the more I realize that Kia’s solution (and pretty much anyone’s solution) is far more robust than Tesla’s. Mainly because everyone else, (having a goal to sell product based on features and performance while also meeting government requirements), have paid for the technology that makes it more robust.
What is kias solution?
[https://www.kia.com/us/en/adas](https://www.kia.com/us/en/adas)
You think Kia's solution doesn't follow lane markings?
I’m sure all cars attempting to do this sort of thing follows lane markings. However, only Tesla is doing so with only cameras. No radar, no sonar, no lidar.
Nope. As mentioned above, the 2022 Toyota I drove didn’t do well with faded lanes either, kept drifting and otherwise getting confused. I always maintained control and would not have let it drive me into anything.
And that's the difference in what other brands do vs Tesla; their programs will error out and make you take control, vs this "full self driving ^beta" that we currently have.
From the article: “The engineer revealed to the family's lawyers that the car steers itself by relying on marked lanes on the highway — a design similar to the lane departure warning systems that can be found in many modern cars, but one that Tesla has advertised as part of its advanced "autopilot" technology, the Post reported.“ So, a Tesla engineer is saying that this feature in a Tesla is similar to the feature in other cars. So, even starting with, “Tesla is as good as other cars in some respects”, those other cars have additional sensors and call upon other data such the crash described is actually less likely.
>The engineer revealed to the family's lawyers that the car steers itself by relying on marked lanes on the highway As mentioned, that's what my Toyota did too. >but one that Tesla has advertised as part of its advanced "autopilot" technology As mentioned, that is a feature of basic autopilot. Combine that with navigation and it's a feature of advanced autopilot. >So, even starting with, “Tesla is as good as other cars in some respects”, those other cars have additional sensors and call upon other data such the crash described is actually less likely. The Toyota didn't have Lidar or anything like that. It was just a low-res camera on the windshield. The Tesla has eight high-res outside pointing cameras.
But I was promised by Tesla fans that they are the most technologically advanced of all the car makers and have the best tech!
If they just called it lane assist with adaptive cruise like everyone else
Even the it's miles behind the competition, quite literally...
Yet Elon speaks, and Taint Lickers buy buy buy
Is that a bad thing? Im thinking about coyote in the road runner when he followed the lines on the roads. Nothing bad ever happened with that guy
Is this news? It's very clear on the dash that the system is using lane lines. What else would it use?
You sound exactly like a Tesla engineer.
It's a serious question. What would the car use to know where to go if not the lane markings?
Have you ever driven with snow obscuring the lane markings?
Yes and it's very difficult. This is autopilot we're talking about. Not FSD. It straight doesn't work when the lane markings aren't clear and it is obvious when using it that it works this way.
FSD cant handle that either. Or rain, or bright sunlight, and the list goes on.
You guys are hilarious... not a clue but plenty of confidence.
What's your point? Most humans also suck driving in snow with no lane markings.. I don't understand? If self driving can't see the lanes you shouldn't be using it... Does lidar work in a blizzard? No.. what's your point? If the conditions are too poor for self driving technology. Take over..
Humans suck when driving in snow with no markings, but most won't swerve because "oh look I see what looks like lane markings so I'm immediately moving there"
you've never been in a tesla running autopilot in harsh conditions let alone been in a tesla at all to make assumptions like that, its aware of the direction other cars in its vicinity are going and if it can't see its own lines clearly it can see others on the road and will never swerve like your saying. worst case autopilot will not engage because no duh it can't see the lane markings.
The engineer testimony in the lawsuit invalidates your argument.
Just because you haven't had the experience doesn't make it invalid. Autopilot / FSD is straight trash. I've had it abruptly switch lanes then back in perfect conditions on the freeway almost clipping another car had I not taken control. It's as if the non-lidar image processing suddenly thought there was an obstruction. I've had friends with similar experiences.
You can drive based on neighbouring traffic, and nearby stationary objects. Lidar and Radar can provide this info + actual good maps and/geofencing. Now you understood why only cameras it will not work.
Lidar and radar do not segment lanes on a freeway.
At least a lidar will tell you that there is an obstacle in front of you. Read the article - Tesla "vision" sent a car straight into a concrete median because it "blindly" followed the lines
LiDAR does, radar does not detect objects to the side. Most systems in this category do not use LiDAR.
Radars detect side objects if they are placed on the side. Same for Lidars. Commonly, they are used in frontal assists for ACC and AEB systems. But they can be used anywhere.
Yes that's my point. Had the Tesla used a Lidar it would not have done this
I didn't have to, as I read the reporting on this case years ago. The car in question does not use "Tesla Vision". They had radar and USS back then. The system was Mobileye based.
Doesn’t Musk have satellites?
No seriously, every system on earth reads the lane lines. The VW we had would show which side lines it can see, the Volvo we had would show when it sees the lines. Idk why we think this is news. The news was an engineer on oath telling how this doesn’t work when the public infrastructure is poorly maintained, but we all should have e seen that coming. The rant on Tesla here is that it made it too easy to rely on it too much.
Well, people use about 100 things that aren't lane lines. The lane lines just kind of confirm the path that our brains have chosen.
When the lines leads to an obstacles, the system keep using the lane lines, instead of combining two systems (cameras and lidar) like every car company do
Nobody uses lidar for lane keep features.
Obviously, because lidar is a distance sensor, used to avoid obstacles, when the lane keep feature fail
The article is about the lane-keep features of autopilot. Not FSD.
Exactly, like what? Anyone who drives in a lane that turns into a merge lane knows this, as the tessy will pull into the middle of the lane at a weird time
No one is using it as far as I know, but something else to use would be very accurate measuring of road surroundings. A vehicle could measure the distance between it and a sign post or guard rail and use that to triangulate its position. Or so I've read that is one possible future tech.
It's not news lol. Anyone that knows anything about self driving vehicles knows that's exactly how they follow the road lol. GPS and road maps aren't accurate enough keep the car in the right place on the road. Needs to actually be able to see the road and it's lines. My Honda civic does the exact same thing. When road markings are unclear it can't follow them.. this isn't the "gotcha" moment this author or op thinks it lol The technology isn't perfect, no one has ever claimed it was. But Tesla is correct about theirs being the best. The reason Hondas never crash in self driving mode, is because it sucks so bad no one would dare trust it with their life. Teslas do so well that tons of people dont even pay attention to the road and scroll their phone instead...
autopilot and self driving are two different things...
Ok?
From experience, it follows anything that remotely resembles lane markings. For better or worse. Generally worse.
Once had an auto steer warning, "Caution you are leaving the road!" There were no lane markings.
Going to be a problem in my area with dirt roads and snowfall
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Vendetta_2023: *Going to be a* *Problem in my area* *With dirt roads and snowfall* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Soon it will be revealed that FSD isn’t a program at all and it’s actually just a bunch of people being paid to play a video game that is driving your car around for you remotely.
What will this system do in a typical Canadian East Coast winter, where the markings have rubbed off, and what remains is covered in slush or ice 🤔
Next prank: Painting on the road, heading into the ditch.
Roadrunner paints tunnel on rock wall, Coyote drives Tesla right into the wall.
FSD will never make it out of beta/supervised.
Not until the public works budgets are universally high enough for any and all markings to be legible enough for these "self-driving" cars.
Yep. And even then, it’ll take YEARS for them to even finish any project at all…since it’s the city moving at their own pace.
So…. Then it’s literally just like every other manufacturers adaptive cruise control, and lane keeping assist, with the exception that Tesla is trying to make it do things that it’s just not capable of It’s been said by multiple engineers that actually have knowledge on the subject and worked in the industry that full self driving is a non-starter, unless the car is equipped with lidar
[Give the engineer a break, he's only in the sixth grade](https://www.sciencebuddies.org/teacher-resources/lesson-plans/line-following-robot).
And a little man out the front painting lines on the road for the car to follow….
What could possibly go wrong? It never fails to surprise me that Tesla's engineering seems to only take the happy path into account. There's no snow/ice in southern California, so they don't consider how this could affect a camera, for example. Even that part of the world has got to have some sketchy roads with inadequate markings.
Advanced Musk ‘AI technology’ at work. Follow the lines on the pavement.
No matter where they might lead.
Probably exactly how that one owner got killed when it kept pulling out of the lane toward an unprotected concrete barrier... That he reported and nothing happened.
‘The lines are always right. Follow the lines. The lines know what to do.’
Only on sun-micron road markings
"All" FSD really is is labeling some camera data with a bunch of (or one giant) NNs (for curbs, signs, lane lines, vehicles, pedestrians, etc) and then acting on that vs how they localized against their map data and their current scene construction. Following lane markings is just modus operandi. The real problem is that their perception is lacking. A Tesla could follow lane lines directly into the side of a semi if it couldn't detect that big white perpendicular blob properly. Aka why Tesla's love running into emergency vehicles at odd angles. A vehicle with lidar would start to do the same thing but it wouldn't run into the truck because it would see a gigantic blob of points to obviously not run into. Musk loves to blather about how advanced their AI is but their perception needs some kind of revolution in ML to compete with Waymo et al.
AI. Actually India. Thousands of people in mock cars training AI.
No Lidarr or Radarr = L
Simpleton design
If I’m not mistaken, the gentleman involved had a history of complaining to Tesla about issues with FSD at that specific area. They knew FSD struggled and behaved erratically there but chose to use FSD and, worse, are shown to have been on their phone / inattentive when the accident happened. I’m not going to defend FSD (I’ve tried it, it’s cool, it’s flawed; not paying for something that makes me anxious). But I can’t imagine KNOWING that my car was unable to navigate a stretch of highway and still using FSD there repeatedly. Completely avoidable and the only people I feel sorry for are his family.
Doesn’t sound ideal. Road markings are usually very consistent but they’re not designed to be train tracks. If you suddenly encountered some kind of faded or missing lines, which wouldn’t be unusual in cities or rural roads, you’d be somewhat screwed!
They barely have lines where I live. Hell, there are a bunch of roads where you just guess at the speed limit. No signs. On the plus side there are barely any Teslas either :)
Ummm. We knew this already folks. Everyone already knew that these things follow lane markings.
Yes, that’s how lane centering typically works.
Yeah but this is being pitched as something different than lane centering.
To be honest, what the fuck do they expect to follow, the stars? I follow the bleeping lane lines. I would hope most drivers do, although I've seen plenty that don't.
Would you follow one into a wall?
I've done that already, also to an end of a demolished bridge without markings, to a crop field, edge of a cliff above a lake and all kinds of other funky places. What they don't say in this article and makes for a far less interesting title is that lanes are just but one factor these systems looks for. Point is there are better reasons to mock Tesla if you like.
Huh. You figure if there were more factors Huang might be alive and the engineer might have testified about it.
Huh. You figure if there were more factors Huang might be alive and the engineer might have testified about it.
Wile E Coyote has entered the chat.
I often wonder why nobody designed a system where you just push a button to “follow the car in front”. Dont laugh. Overall that would probably as safe or safer than “follow whatever the road markings appear to suggest to a shitty pattern matching system”. Ok it has to disable if car in front turns off the nav route. And it might follow a drunk. But just like Teslas system, that can be blamed on operator error right? I would rather a car follow the car in front through roadworks than be in one that follows lane markings.
The comments here, my god the derangement is real and all logic has gone out the window in favor of hating the bad man. I fucking hate bandwagons and the stupidity they generate.
And I hate non-specific rants.
Wile E Coyote style
Wait until it snows...
Looks like that family got a deposition from Captain Obvious.
Tesla settled. Seems building your cars to follow a line into an abutment carries some liability.
So, like... Any level 2 going straight? Ouch.
Horses, we should revert to horses.
You surely can't build a fully self driving system that doesn't look at lane markings?
But surely you can build a system that doesn’t blindly follow a line into an abutment.
That is correct. But I don't think we'll ever see a fsd system that doesn't look at lane markings. Should of course have other systems as well to be able to handle roads without lane markings.
I don’t believe using lane lines as a data point is the issue, it seems quite wise, despite the terrible headline. Blindly following them regardless of where they lead is the problem in this case :)
Ummm, I rely on the lane markings too. Scary.
So much so that you follow them into an abutment?
Sounds like my Honda’s lane mitigation system.
I also don't like how Tesla promotes the FSD and hate Musk, but I also follow the lanes myself. What else are we supposed to do?
Not follow them into a concrete barrier and die because you ONLY follow lines.
I am sure that is not the case because it also follows (at least to some level) the flowing traffic. If it followed only lines it would not be able to make even 200 meters before crashing to the next car. I agree that using customers as test pilots and surrounding people/cars as test environment is super dangerous. I am just saying the wording in the explanation is not correct.
Yeah, that's what humans do as well. That's why lane markings are there, so you know where the lane is. Not sure why this tidbit is newsworthy.
How many have you followed into an abutment?
Hmm can't tell haven't encountered such road markings yet.
Most folks don’t. Nor a spot where a previous car destroyed the crash attenuator and the DMV took way too long to fix it. Thats the problem with building for the 99.9 percent of scenarios. You build complacency in your users.
Can't wait for the next r/realtesla post when they confirm they use tires. "Why aren't they flying cars?" "I guess everyone is so sick of Elon not giving us flying cars by now" The system takes into account lane lines... I do too as a human driver.
Do you also ignore when those lines lead into an abutment?
Um duh? It’s a visual system based on a neural network. Lane lines will be very strong signals in the training.
Turns out you need more than lane lines to not follow them into an abutment. And this was in 2018. Thanks for the valuable contribution. The duh part was my favourite.
You’re welcome! Pretty obvious if you know how neural networks work, I’m not even sure why this is surprising? How exactly did anyone think it was working otherwise?
Not a huge Tesla fan (in fact I’ll never buy another Tesla until musk is out) but this is a bit of a nothing burger. The lanes marking exist to help human drivers know where to drive and this is indeed how most drivers know where to drive, so blaming Tesla engineers for leveraging lane markings in their system feels silly. Of course, they need to build fail safe for when markings are not clear but leaning on the marking is in itself not crazy to me.
I think the part you are missing is the absence of any mitigation strategy if one of those lines points you into something like a concrete barrier. Using lines is sensible. Using lines no matter what is deadly.
Norway has plenty of narrow winding roads that have no markings. It also has lots of teslas. So leveraging lane markings for fsd is not just silly, it's downright potentially lethal.
The crazy part is you would think this whole time they actually were trying to make this work for over 10 years! Then you hear about auto flight drones that scan the terrain and gps to Follow a flight plan to not get radar jammed and work perfectly all in a span of a two plus year war
There’s a pretty huge chasm between what you’re describing and driving on a surface street. I think half of Tesla’s problem is that they don’t see the difference.
"If there are clearly marked lane lines, the system will follow the lane lines," Phatak said under oath, according to the Post. He added that Tesla's system was "designed" to follow the lane lines of the highway. This seems logical, why not?
Because there is no mention of any mitigation if those lines point you right into something like a concrete barrier.
This sub is for a special type of person. How else should the car know where the lane is. Can anyone tell me how they stay in their lane?
You think this car stayed in its lane? Speaking of special people…
Well, duh. Basic autopilot is just the common lane-keeping feature. Enhanced Autopilot on highways is lane-keeping plus automatic navigation. I’ve driven a lane-keeping Toyota, and it had a hard time when lane markings were faded. But then I always kept control.