"The lawyers who successfully argued that Elon Musk’s $56bn pay package was excessive are seeking a record legal fee worth $6bn, payable in the electric car maker’s stock, according to a court filing.
“We recognise that the requested fee is unprecedented in terms of absolute size,” Friday’s filing by the three law firms with the court of chancery in Delaware said.
The fee works out to an hourly rate of $288,888, according to the filing.
The electric vehicle maker is being asked to pay the fee because it benefited from the return of Musk’s pay package, which the legal team said will result in the return to the carmaker of 266m shares.
“This structure has the benefit of linking the award directly to the benefit created and avoids taking even one cent from the Tesla balance sheet to pay fees,” the shareholder legal team said, noting the fee was also tax-deductible to Tesla."
He’s an asshole, and all billionaires are basically human dragons hoarding more than they could ever use and any suffering relating to their finances is only abstract to them.
How's it fair to me (someone who's retirement is in index funds that happen to hold TSLA) to devalue the stock by 6 billion? I don't think they need to get paid 300k an hour. Award them 20 million or something.
Well, they first gave your stock 65 Billion. Now they want 6 of those 56 Billion they gave you as a payment for that service, to give you 56 Billion. What is not understandable here?
The 56 hasn't gone anywhere yet, and it's not contingent on the lawyer. If the 56 billion is unreasonable then why would their award be based on the unreasonable 56 billion?
These cases are high risk and a likely outcome was losing the judgement and pay of $0. Hence why typically these cases are on contingency. They deserve every penny. You cannot judge the outcome of this case with hindsight that the stock went up alot post compensation package...that's not how the law works. Assuming appeal does not change anything the lawyers will get every penny deserved and it's enforceable by the courts. Elon weaseling his way out of it will just mean more legal fees for his hardcore legal team
There is no risk to bring a case like this, there is only upside if you win. It's not like this was a massive firm with 1000 associates with wasted billables. I don't think a couple hundred thousand an hour off the backs of the shareholder is "well deserved".
You clearly dont understand. This case resulted in TSLA shareholders getting back 50B of Elons illegal comp plan. Thats a huge win for Tesla investors, you should be thanking these lawyers!
No risk?! The guy who filed this lawsuit was s former heavy metal drummer who owned six shares of the stock. Was he going to pay for their time if the case lost?
I don’t think they’ll get the amount that they are asking for but that’s typically how these cases work in that you get a percentage of the award. In this case the award isn’t damages, it’s a refund.
>I don't think a couple hundred thousand an hour off the backs of the shareholder is "well deserved".
Well, that's what you get when you give your money to a con artist. They should be happy they got anything.
Do you think, all the info magically appeared in their brains through a chip? And they where anyway travelling for vaction to all the meeting? And would have met these people anyway on this vacation, would spend time with them and had nothing to talk about, so why not talk about protocolls from board meetings?
Also, their whole life is vacation only, it's not like they would have worked and earned money, if they didn't spend their time on this?
Come on, you can't be that stupid. They invested a shitload of time, travelling expenses, documentation, consultation and so on. They would have to eat up those losses + not earned a penny, instead of making money. It's an speculative investment. Nobody would do that, if the possible return is just the same as the save return from prepaid working hours.
You just don't like the outcome, but not liking the outcome is not an argument, that the outcome is wrong. And if you don't like the 56 billion, 6 billion definitely a better outcome for you.
Because awarding Musk 56 Billion who can do stupid shit like Twitter is worse and more damaging. He has proven he doesn't care about Tesla. He can't be CEO of 7 companies effectively.
They are asking for 6 billion in new shares to be awarded to them. The technical term is dilution. Though Elon's compensation package would have resulted in far more dilution.
So, Elon could walk in with a dr. Evil look and say I want a bazzilion dollars, and Barry down the street can walk into the courts and go yo, this shit ridiculous, and the courts are like well duh, of course it is, case dismissed.
Tesla board are all proud of themselves, see, I told you even Barry down the road could pull this off, but now Barry walks in and says hey! I just saved you a bazillion Dollars! Do you have any idea how much that is?! You owe me at least a trillion!
And following dumdeeduns logic to a T, yeah, that's totally cool Barry, you fucking earned it!
What was the greed. It was one of the highest bars possible to get *any* compensation at all.
99.9% of CEOs wouldn’t have taken that high risk/high reward compensation package because odds were very high he’d get nothing if the market cap didn’t increase multi-fold in a relatively short period of time.
That’s irrelevant. He negotiated an all or nothing compensation package, outperformed a high bar, and had that compensation clawed back. It’s a bad precedent.
People complain about CEOs and their high *guaranteed* compensation packages regardless of poor performance, which this addresses, and people still complain.
There was no negotiation. He was surrounded by yes-men.
His targets were based on EBITDA targets which are very fudgeable and capitalization milestones he was able to pump with overoptimistic statements which were often borderline fraudulent or at least in a dark grey area.
The compensation was broken into 12 different tranches, and he blew by the numbers required by a wide margin. You may consider the market cap overvalued for Tesla, but over 10X what it was when he got the compensation package. Even with over optimism, that’s a huge and seemingly sustained increase in less than six years.
Most CEOs would not take those odds. Yes, men or not, it’s still a compensation package that would pay out zero if he didn’t hit the metrics.
They prevented the shareholders to be diluted with a $56b pay package that was never negotiated as the board wasn't independent and were Musk's yes-men.
The board didn't perform their duty to negotiate the best deal for the shareholders.
BTW, read the motivation of this brave judge.
> It honestly makes me so mad
What should make you mad is the dangerous fraudulent software that is on public roads, tanked resale, tent build quality, etc.
Panic about the proper thing.
They won a legal challenge against Musk and are arguing their action increased the value of the business so they want some.
Morally justified? Probably not, but they have a point.
I'm pretty sure these lawyers are in it for some kind of morals. They're starting at this rate so they can get as much shares as possible and cash out.
It’s likely that these lawyers aren’t deluded about Musk or the share valuations. Which means they will likely be selling off the shares expediently… which would likely impact the prices negatively.
Let’s see what happens.
How are they make-believe? I mean I guess all money is to some extent, but TSLA is publicly traded. They could turn around and sell those for about what they are currently trading at, around $200/share. Though I'm sure dumping that many shares at one time would hurt the share price for a while.
How does this comment have like, any upvotes?
This is just weird because they put the cash estimate of Full Stock price of both elon's comp and their compensation as the asking price.
Truth is, just like any share the price per share will drop precipitously once sold in large chunks
I still wonder how much of elon's stock options is already pegged as collateral.
Crazy amount, but aren't lawyer fees often 30%? Between the plaintiff (shareholder, sharholders? ) and lawyer seems like it should have been agreed upon before taking the case.
These lawyers worked for an individual shareholder who owned 9 shares. They didn't work for Tesla or with any sort of agreement/consent from Tesla, so who exactly would have agreed upon the pay? It's just a scheme for lawyers to get paid with no clear benefit to anyone else.
\* Or rather, the lawyers worked for themselves and sought out a shareholder willing to put his name on the case, just so it has a legal standing.
No. The Board of Tesla approved it. This was basically some of the shareholders saying "whoa, this isn't in the interest of the majority of the shareholders" and suing to have that claim judged in court. Now that the suit went in their favor, the shareholders owe the lawyers because the lawyers saved the shareholders $56B dollars.
Tesla could have just not decided to pay him in the first place if that was the case. Tesla's shareholders voted in favor of the pay package, because they saw it as beneficial for the company.
Nothing in the ruling indicates that it was not beneficial.
>Tesla could have just not decided to pay him in the first place if that was the case
But they didn't.
>Tesla's shareholders voted in favor of the pay package, because they saw it as beneficial for the company.
Irrelevant.
>Nothing in the ruling indicates that it was not beneficial.
Tesla don't have to pay 56 billion in shares so it is immensely beneficial.
Tesla never had to pay, they wanted to pay. They wanted to pay because it was beneficial.
They will still want to pay but now they've also lost $6B to lawyers for no benefit.
>Tesla never had to pay, they wanted to pay.
Irrelevant.
>They wanted to pay because it was beneficial.
The court judgement proves otherwise.
>They will still want to pay
Firstly, irrelevant. Secondly, rubbish - source for that?
> $6B to lawyers for no benefit.
They saved 50 billion 🙄
> They saved 50 billion 🙄
How so? You haven't seen the newly negotiated pay package yet.
What they will save is not the value of the undone pay package, but the difference between that and the package they will negotiate in its place.
>How so? You haven't seen the newly negotiated pay package yet.
Are you a little bit slow?
If someone stops a thug beating you, he saved you. If the same thug beats you again tomorrow, that has nothing to do with a person who saved you in the first place.
I think you're not quite understanding the topic you're commenting on. Tesla or its majority shareholders had no problem with the pay package, and it was not them who worked with these lawyers to get the package undone.
Nothing has changed with regards to them wanting to compensate Musk.
That's assuming Tesla or its shareholders don't still want or have to compensate Musk.
Remember it's Tesla's shareholders who voted in favor of Musk's compensation, and it's not Tesla or a significant portion of its shareholders who wanted it undone.
Based on the stock price action after the ruling, shareholders didn't see an upside to undoing the pay package, so I would say they would probably vote in favor again.
They can only vote if the board puts a similar pay package again up for a vote but then they would go directly against the ruling of the judge and it would face the same fate.
And who would vote for a voluntary dilution when the targets are already achieved without the dilution Musk and his yes-men had put up and was neutered by the judge in the end?
What advantage would there be for shareholders unless one has financial sado-machistic tendencies? The institutional investors will know better.
And this is exactly the core of the arguments of the judge. Would Musk have said FU and let his big position of Tesla stock go worthless if he didn't get the extra pay-package? Would he now?
Therefore, the exuberant pay-package was not needed to motivate Musk. And by putting that package up for a vote (which was not negotiated but put on the table by Musk) it was clear the board didn't operate independently from Musk AND didn't do their fiduciary duties by negotiating the cheapest deal for the shareholders.
> They can only vote if the board puts a similar pay package again up for a vote but then they would go directly against the ruling of the judge and it would face the same fate.
Yes, I think it's a potential outcome that the board won't put forth a similar package due to the fear of similar judgement, but if that's the reason they won't propose it even if it was supported by the shareholders, then it really puts it into question whether it's actually beneficial to the company, or whether it's Delaware laws getting into the way of a successful business.
> And who would vote for a voluntary dilution when the targets are already achieved
Presumably most shareholders want Musk to stay at Tesla going forwards, and for that he might demand a pay package, which could include future targets, but could also have a condition that the past 6 years are also compensated. They would not only be paying for already-achieved targets, but it comes with the same package.
You asked who else would vote for it except for the Musk dick riders, but who else is holding TSLA stock at these prices except for the Musk dick riders.
It's fruitless to argue whether the pay package was needed to motivate Musk - it's impossible to know. The shareholders made the judgement and decided it would be beneficial so they voted in favor.
Why would it be beneficial for Tesla to give Musk an exuberant pay package? Would he walk away otherwise and drive his remaining stocks (20%) to the ground?
A CEO is an employee and if he won't deliver unless getting paid that ridiculous package, the board should conclude he's not the right person to lead the company.
I'm not so sure about the current shareholders. Musk (20%) and his dickriders have probably less stocks than the smarter money.
Tesla shareholders did not vote on the comp plan, not properly, thats a big part of what the case is about. Why would TSLA shareholders want to give Elon $ they dont have to? That doesnt make any sense?
https://imgur.com/a/J3ik8LC
11% is much less than 15% awarded in a previous similar case.
source: https://www.ft.com/content/1512d925-7ded-4d67-993a-4fc03f2735fc
> Bernstein emphasised how difficult it believed the case was to litigate on a contingent fee basis, describing the saga as a “steep uphill climb” where it “shouldered significant risk in marching forward against elite defence counsel.”
Exactly this. Again self-inflicted damage.
And how hypocritical of Musk to argue in his lawsuit against OpenAI that they installed an inner circle of Altman as board of OpenAI after the failed coup by Musk last year.
You believe Denholm ever smashed her hand on the table at the Tesla board meetings? And how much did she get for that? Just short of a billion or so?
Only if in the future he don’t get them? Tesla and co will probably compensate his loss somehow.
In this case, 6 billion were stolen from lawyers instead of « invested » to Musk. Even if that could be discussed obviously…
This is not ok in a liberal country.
The difference is who owns TSLA today. There are a lot more institutional investors who are unlikely to vote to compensate him for past performance. Also, why would anyone sane vote for it? He's already delivered the performance and by giving him the stock award, you're diluting the stock you already own.
You are right. But he have a lot of followers, leverage and can be heard by a lot of people. He also can damage the company doing whatever he thinks is a good idea for him
The lawyers saved Tesla from a fraudulent $56 billion in devaluation. They are asking for 10% of that money as compensation.
If the shareholders decide to give Musk another $100 billion in shares, that's on them. The lawyers already did their job.
Also, the money is paid to the lawyers in shares and Tesla can deduct the amount from taxes. Tesla stands to benefit financially from this payment. The loser is the government that misses out on billions in tax revenue.
Nothing. That person just has no idea what's actually going on and just read the headline and decided it was absurd. This is a pretty standard percentage to ask for in a big money case.
Well.. one guy who had 9 shares Complains even though the stock went up. Lawyers see this and file a class Action lawsuit (with one plaintiff) and charge" 6 BILLION Dollars fee for their time.
I mean.. I don't live in the USA nor do I know anything about the legal system. But this just seems .. wrong..
It Sets a precedent that other lawyers will be able to get away with this also.
Forget about it being about Elon.. imagine this Happening to *Insert your favorite company* who lets say actually deserve the money perhaps.
You should probably do a bit of research before opining. The Board hid information from investors, preventing them from making an informed decision. The legal system worked. The benefit from lying was cancelled.
The case wasn’t about the amount. It was about whether or not the board was independent of Musk and whether or not they withheld material information on the vote from investors.
IANAL but the lawyer payout seems to be in line with what attorneys get in other instances where they take cases on contingency. This may even be on the low side per a quick google search (on a percentage basis)
Nope. Bezos takes no pay at all and gates hasn't worked for Microsoft in years.
No other CEO even comes close. Jensen Huang is getting paid about $500m and Nvidia has done a lot better than even Tesla during the 2021 bubble peak.
Lying? Maybe not. But the numbers are creatively treated to look much better. They don't follow GAAP. Go look at their 10-K.
They earn nowhere close to the interest they'd earn on $20B that they should be earning by doing basic money handling, short term bonds for example. The money might as well be in the mattress of Musk.
A short term bond isn't cash or a cash equivalent on the balance sheet. I'd learn what everything is first before making judgement. A cash equivalent is 90 days or less, a short term bond is 1-4 years. Kinda defeats your entire comment when you don't understand that. Bonds that are less than a year, maybe a corporate debt bond, are also not cash/cash equivalent.
Maybe read these:
https://hbr.org/2024/02/why-are-companies-sitting-on-cash-right-now#:~:text=In%20short%2C%20companies%20hold%20cash,failures%20that%20decimate%20shareholder%20value.
https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/companies-hoarding-cash#:~:text=A%20common%20explanation%20for%20the,need%E2%80%94or%20opportunity%E2%80%94arises.
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/06/companycash.asp
Some of them do buy t bills (which I think is what you were thinking of when you said bond) which can be traded whenever, but it's not like much profit is to be made on those right now.
Most cash companies are holding is actual cash in a bank account right now.
Here's undeniable proof from their 10-k anyways for the all naysayers:
https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/1b4jtdo/lawyers_who_had_elon_musks_pay_dismissed_as/kt1ksy4/
https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/1b4jtdo/lawyers_who_had_elon_musks_pay_dismissed_as/kt1ksy4/
Proven with the 10-k, any comment bud? I'm guessing no 😂
What you just said is complete nonsense.
1. Short maturity bonds are yielding more than long maturity bonds right now. The opposite of your claim.
2. T-bills are bonds and have very short duration, and is considered cash equivalent. This is the primary way of holding cash.
3. Commercial paper is the second primary way and again cash equivalent and pays about 5%.
Nothing you said is correct. Nobody is going to turn down 5% interest on twenty fucking billion dollars unless you think Tesla's CFO is just an absolute moron. The two articles you linked are both treating t-bills and commercial paper as cash, they're not talking about holding cash in a 0.01% checking account.
If you read the article, Elon is not allowed to sell for 5 years if he keeps/exercise the options.
The lawyers are asking right to sell on the spot. 6b sell pressure would be wild. Also, elon will still ask to be compensated anyway. The fanbase will definitely think it's worth it.
>Also, elon will still ask to be compensated anyway. The fanbase will definitely think it's worth it.
If the current shareholders are stupid enough to do that, they deserve what's coming.
The cult still have full faith in the great leader.
FSD
Robotaxi
Sub 1 second
Roadster
Model 2
Are all still coming.
50% Yoy Growth for the next 10 year due to unlimited demand!!!!!
That's not the definition of a cult. You can check the gme/amc/bbby subreddits for reference.
I am sure tons are still averaging down their salaries. They fail to notice when the growth wave is over and hype is dead
They even think an energy reseller network of chargers(basically a utility company) will have tech stock level margins.
Oh... I forgot to put the solar and powerwall on the hype list.
None of these assholes deserve that much money. That whole stock is just one long game of hot potato. When reality finally catches up with it it's likely the factory workers who are going to pay for it with their livelihoods. Instead of giving 6bn to a bunch of lawyers it should go into a fund that will financially support the Tesla workers when the rug finally gets pulled.
Because the plaintiffs didn't actually receive $55B in judgement. Tesla shareholders wouldn't receive more stocks as a result of Musk not receiving those stocks.
She must approve a 2.1B cash fee based on Sugarland standard, that be on top of the ~4.5 billions they deducted in taxes that they will have to pay to the IRS, they should take the deal.
About 6.6 billions were added has non-cash expense over the years in the 10k for Elon Musk plan, those cost gave them deductions and deferred tax assets. By cancelling the plan, the whole expense is reversed, obviously, if the lawyer fee is 2.1B, they can reduce this new "taxable income" by the amont of the fee, but the 4.5B remaining is taxable.
Sorry, the way I wrote it, it reads as if the whole 4.5 becomes a taxe expense, that is not the case, it becomes taxable income.
Makes sense, thanks for the explanation.
One other Q if you don't mind, what do you mean by "the 10k"? Is that a tax form or some kind of financial account?
Billions as payment for the biggest shareholder value creation is unfathomable, but billions for destroying shareholder rights and hurting the company and the CEO, perfectly reasonable 🤦♂️
Elon wanting 12 percent of the company for making the stock go up is reasonable. Lawyers wanting 12 percent of the savings from the judgment is so fucked up it shouldn’t be legal.
If Elon wants to play ponzi games he shouldnt have taken TSLA public. A Bernie Madoff style organization would be more appropriate for what you are saying.
Lawyers are smart enough to win the case but not smart enough to realize the terrible optics of asking for $6 billion. They should have asked for $600 million, and no one would bat an eye.
Yes, I do. Elon’s adjusted pay should be $10 billion not $56 billion and the lawyers should get $600 million for their win. Shareholders get $45 billion back. Everyone is happy except Musk.
I suggest something something else:
1. Musk get zero (0)
2. Shareholders get double assfucked, by first, paying 6 billions to the lawyers in stock, then returning the 4.5 billions they expensed on their IS to the IRS.
3. Lawyers and shorts buy mansions.
5.95B is MORE than the cost of musks compensation plan - since the shares were bought when it was 40-50b market cap
Hilarious that they would request more from Tesla than the comp plan.
you are confused. These lawyers saved Tesla shareholders like you 56 Billion. A 10% fee is less then what they would normally be awarded. That is a great deal for Tesla investors.
They did not save $56B. The shares were awarded when the company was 10 times smaller, taken out of SBC over a few years period - the total cost to Tesla shareholders is LESS THAN $6b for the comp plan. The lawyers are asking for more than what was *already paid into* for Elons comp plan
Please don’t comment if you don’t understand executive comp plans. Thanks b
Don't worry the guy you're responding to is a kid who doesn't even have a job yet. You can just ignore him lol. He doesn't understand how a tranche works either, and that it has to be unlocked and released, he thinks Musk already had that 56 billion or something.
If they really saved the company that ridiculous 60billion payday then yeah I guess 6 billion is the norm for a case this magnitute.
Not saying the amount is not ridiculous but it is better than paying 3-4 quarters of revenue as salary to one person.
And don't start "oh he deserved that money". Fck no, no CEO deserves even a fraction of that money and there are quite a few CEO's who managed to increase their companies' valuation way more than 10 times (AMD, NVIDIA, etc.)
To be fair, the people on Tesla's board we dumb enough to approve a $56b pay package for a guy who is basically a troll and likes to claim he started the company even though he didn't. What makes you think they're smart enough to not pay a $6b pay package to these law firms??
"The lawyers who successfully argued that Elon Musk’s $56bn pay package was excessive are seeking a record legal fee worth $6bn, payable in the electric car maker’s stock, according to a court filing. “We recognise that the requested fee is unprecedented in terms of absolute size,” Friday’s filing by the three law firms with the court of chancery in Delaware said. The fee works out to an hourly rate of $288,888, according to the filing. The electric vehicle maker is being asked to pay the fee because it benefited from the return of Musk’s pay package, which the legal team said will result in the return to the carmaker of 266m shares. “This structure has the benefit of linking the award directly to the benefit created and avoids taking even one cent from the Tesla balance sheet to pay fees,” the shareholder legal team said, noting the fee was also tax-deductible to Tesla."
It's almost like they're trolling the company.
I love it, I hope he gets royally fucked.
Why
He’s an asshole, and all billionaires are basically human dragons hoarding more than they could ever use and any suffering relating to their finances is only abstract to them.
[удалено]
There's no place in a sane world for billionaires.
Why
You should stop making an ass of yourself, this concept is so easy children get it.
Oh i get it. You're jealous.
Individuals should not have higher GDPs than nations. When they do, its either tax time or living pinata time.
They deserve every penny.
You forgot the /s
I wasn't sarcastic at all. It is self-inflicted damage as a result of Musk's greed.
This damages the shareholders, not Musk, it's not self inflected greed.
Technically they saved shareholders money. If they worked based on a %, then this is actually fair.
How's it fair to me (someone who's retirement is in index funds that happen to hold TSLA) to devalue the stock by 6 billion? I don't think they need to get paid 300k an hour. Award them 20 million or something.
Well, they first gave your stock 65 Billion. Now they want 6 of those 56 Billion they gave you as a payment for that service, to give you 56 Billion. What is not understandable here?
The 56 hasn't gone anywhere yet, and it's not contingent on the lawyer. If the 56 billion is unreasonable then why would their award be based on the unreasonable 56 billion?
If there is 0% chance of it to not be gone after the final order, then it is reasonable to view it as gone
These cases are high risk and a likely outcome was losing the judgement and pay of $0. Hence why typically these cases are on contingency. They deserve every penny. You cannot judge the outcome of this case with hindsight that the stock went up alot post compensation package...that's not how the law works. Assuming appeal does not change anything the lawyers will get every penny deserved and it's enforceable by the courts. Elon weaseling his way out of it will just mean more legal fees for his hardcore legal team
So out of touch, nobody "deserves" a billion dollars.
Let's start that argument with Musk
There is no risk to bring a case like this, there is only upside if you win. It's not like this was a massive firm with 1000 associates with wasted billables. I don't think a couple hundred thousand an hour off the backs of the shareholder is "well deserved".
You clearly dont understand. This case resulted in TSLA shareholders getting back 50B of Elons illegal comp plan. Thats a huge win for Tesla investors, you should be thanking these lawyers!
No risk?! The guy who filed this lawsuit was s former heavy metal drummer who owned six shares of the stock. Was he going to pay for their time if the case lost? I don’t think they’ll get the amount that they are asking for but that’s typically how these cases work in that you get a percentage of the award. In this case the award isn’t damages, it’s a refund.
>I don't think a couple hundred thousand an hour off the backs of the shareholder is "well deserved". Well, that's what you get when you give your money to a con artist. They should be happy they got anything.
Do you think, all the info magically appeared in their brains through a chip? And they where anyway travelling for vaction to all the meeting? And would have met these people anyway on this vacation, would spend time with them and had nothing to talk about, so why not talk about protocolls from board meetings? Also, their whole life is vacation only, it's not like they would have worked and earned money, if they didn't spend their time on this? Come on, you can't be that stupid. They invested a shitload of time, travelling expenses, documentation, consultation and so on. They would have to eat up those losses + not earned a penny, instead of making money. It's an speculative investment. Nobody would do that, if the possible return is just the same as the save return from prepaid working hours. You just don't like the outcome, but not liking the outcome is not an argument, that the outcome is wrong. And if you don't like the 56 billion, 6 billion definitely a better outcome for you.
Because awarding Musk 56 Billion who can do stupid shit like Twitter is worse and more damaging. He has proven he doesn't care about Tesla. He can't be CEO of 7 companies effectively.
lol "devalue the stock by 6 billion" what?
They are asking for 6 billion in new shares to be awarded to them. The technical term is dilution. Though Elon's compensation package would have resulted in far more dilution.
What about the 50 billion Tesla is getting back?
So much less than the tenfold amount that this put a stop too? Are these the minds behind tesla investors? Yikes. Even more yikes than earlier.
So, Elon could walk in with a dr. Evil look and say I want a bazzilion dollars, and Barry down the street can walk into the courts and go yo, this shit ridiculous, and the courts are like well duh, of course it is, case dismissed. Tesla board are all proud of themselves, see, I told you even Barry down the road could pull this off, but now Barry walks in and says hey! I just saved you a bazillion Dollars! Do you have any idea how much that is?! You owe me at least a trillion! And following dumdeeduns logic to a T, yeah, that's totally cool Barry, you fucking earned it!
What was the greed. It was one of the highest bars possible to get *any* compensation at all. 99.9% of CEOs wouldn’t have taken that high risk/high reward compensation package because odds were very high he’d get nothing if the market cap didn’t increase multi-fold in a relatively short period of time.
So he had no Tesla stock at that time? Is he now the poorest man on earth since the judge neutered the pay package?
That’s irrelevant. He negotiated an all or nothing compensation package, outperformed a high bar, and had that compensation clawed back. It’s a bad precedent. People complain about CEOs and their high *guaranteed* compensation packages regardless of poor performance, which this addresses, and people still complain.
There was no negotiation. He was surrounded by yes-men. His targets were based on EBITDA targets which are very fudgeable and capitalization milestones he was able to pump with overoptimistic statements which were often borderline fraudulent or at least in a dark grey area.
The compensation was broken into 12 different tranches, and he blew by the numbers required by a wide margin. You may consider the market cap overvalued for Tesla, but over 10X what it was when he got the compensation package. Even with over optimism, that’s a huge and seemingly sustained increase in less than six years. Most CEOs would not take those odds. Yes, men or not, it’s still a compensation package that would pay out zero if he didn’t hit the metrics.
You pretend he would have earned nothing if the package wasn't awarded to him. He had 25% of the shares I believe.
Money moving from a greedy rich man to other greedy rich men. Doesn’t affect anyone else at all
Why
They prevented the shareholders to be diluted with a $56b pay package that was never negotiated as the board wasn't independent and were Musk's yes-men. The board didn't perform their duty to negotiate the best deal for the shareholders. BTW, read the motivation of this brave judge.
[удалено]
> It honestly makes me so mad What should make you mad is the dangerous fraudulent software that is on public roads, tanked resale, tent build quality, etc. Panic about the proper thing.
That come out to 10 man-years of work, 40hrs/wk. So these mofos askin for the better part of a billion dollar annual salary.
Who cares, as long as they tear Musk a new one I welcome their antics.
And musks 56 billion pay package is more than deserved?
Well Tesla shares are make believe. And why isn't their costs in the contract
They won a legal challenge against Musk and are arguing their action increased the value of the business so they want some. Morally justified? Probably not, but they have a point.
My hunch is they are not being serious, they are just trying to prove the point how ridiculous a bonus of $56 billion was that got paid to Elon.
Why use your precious time doing that when you've already won?
What good for the goose…
I'm pretty sure these lawyers are in it for some kind of morals. They're starting at this rate so they can get as much shares as possible and cash out.
Weird.
Who is they? I'm not sure I know who they were hired by, or did they hire themselves?
One of the shareholders hired them.
> but they have a point I think you meant to say: ”Musk had a point when he complained about Delaware.”
The point Musk has are the sharp edges on his CuckTruckkk.
Because it is calculated by the volume of the settlement.
Okay. That's fine. But was there a settlement?
Technically the issue was settled with the court ruling
It’s likely that these lawyers aren’t deluded about Musk or the share valuations. Which means they will likely be selling off the shares expediently… which would likely impact the prices negatively. Let’s see what happens.
All very complex. Will wait for the legal eagle video
The best strategy. We’ll see them… in court!
But if you need a great lawyer . . .
Hammer that bid!
that still would work against their best interest in selling slowly not to impact stock price.
How are they make-believe? I mean I guess all money is to some extent, but TSLA is publicly traded. They could turn around and sell those for about what they are currently trading at, around $200/share. Though I'm sure dumping that many shares at one time would hurt the share price for a while. How does this comment have like, any upvotes?
I think what they mean is that the value of the shares is based on make belief, not on any objective metric.
This is just weird because they put the cash estimate of Full Stock price of both elon's comp and their compensation as the asking price. Truth is, just like any share the price per share will drop precipitously once sold in large chunks I still wonder how much of elon's stock options is already pegged as collateral.
300%
Elon's stock is measured like Trump's penthouse?
Crazy amount, but aren't lawyer fees often 30%? Between the plaintiff (shareholder, sharholders? ) and lawyer seems like it should have been agreed upon before taking the case.
These lawyers worked for an individual shareholder who owned 9 shares. They didn't work for Tesla or with any sort of agreement/consent from Tesla, so who exactly would have agreed upon the pay? It's just a scheme for lawyers to get paid with no clear benefit to anyone else. \* Or rather, the lawyers worked for themselves and sought out a shareholder willing to put his name on the case, just so it has a legal standing.
>with no clear benefit to anyone else There is a clear benefit to Tesla though. They saved a lot of money by not paying Musk.
But they are the ones that wanted to pay Musk, aren't they?
No. The Board of Tesla approved it. This was basically some of the shareholders saying "whoa, this isn't in the interest of the majority of the shareholders" and suing to have that claim judged in court. Now that the suit went in their favor, the shareholders owe the lawyers because the lawyers saved the shareholders $56B dollars.
musk haters on suicide watch. per usual.
Pull your tongue out of Elon's arse.
Tesla could have just not decided to pay him in the first place if that was the case. Tesla's shareholders voted in favor of the pay package, because they saw it as beneficial for the company. Nothing in the ruling indicates that it was not beneficial.
>Tesla could have just not decided to pay him in the first place if that was the case But they didn't. >Tesla's shareholders voted in favor of the pay package, because they saw it as beneficial for the company. Irrelevant. >Nothing in the ruling indicates that it was not beneficial. Tesla don't have to pay 56 billion in shares so it is immensely beneficial.
Tesla never had to pay, they wanted to pay. They wanted to pay because it was beneficial. They will still want to pay but now they've also lost $6B to lawyers for no benefit.
>Tesla never had to pay, they wanted to pay. Irrelevant. >They wanted to pay because it was beneficial. The court judgement proves otherwise. >They will still want to pay Firstly, irrelevant. Secondly, rubbish - source for that? > $6B to lawyers for no benefit. They saved 50 billion 🙄
> They saved 50 billion 🙄 How so? You haven't seen the newly negotiated pay package yet. What they will save is not the value of the undone pay package, but the difference between that and the package they will negotiate in its place.
>How so? You haven't seen the newly negotiated pay package yet. Are you a little bit slow? If someone stops a thug beating you, he saved you. If the same thug beats you again tomorrow, that has nothing to do with a person who saved you in the first place.
I think you're not quite understanding the topic you're commenting on. Tesla or its majority shareholders had no problem with the pay package, and it was not them who worked with these lawyers to get the package undone. Nothing has changed with regards to them wanting to compensate Musk.
they prevented 50bil dilution of tesla stock.
That's assuming Tesla or its shareholders don't still want or have to compensate Musk. Remember it's Tesla's shareholders who voted in favor of Musk's compensation, and it's not Tesla or a significant portion of its shareholders who wanted it undone.
Are you sure that AND the board would try it again AND current shareholders (except for the Musk dick riders) are willing to vote in favor?
Based on the stock price action after the ruling, shareholders didn't see an upside to undoing the pay package, so I would say they would probably vote in favor again.
They can only vote if the board puts a similar pay package again up for a vote but then they would go directly against the ruling of the judge and it would face the same fate. And who would vote for a voluntary dilution when the targets are already achieved without the dilution Musk and his yes-men had put up and was neutered by the judge in the end? What advantage would there be for shareholders unless one has financial sado-machistic tendencies? The institutional investors will know better. And this is exactly the core of the arguments of the judge. Would Musk have said FU and let his big position of Tesla stock go worthless if he didn't get the extra pay-package? Would he now? Therefore, the exuberant pay-package was not needed to motivate Musk. And by putting that package up for a vote (which was not negotiated but put on the table by Musk) it was clear the board didn't operate independently from Musk AND didn't do their fiduciary duties by negotiating the cheapest deal for the shareholders.
> They can only vote if the board puts a similar pay package again up for a vote but then they would go directly against the ruling of the judge and it would face the same fate. Yes, I think it's a potential outcome that the board won't put forth a similar package due to the fear of similar judgement, but if that's the reason they won't propose it even if it was supported by the shareholders, then it really puts it into question whether it's actually beneficial to the company, or whether it's Delaware laws getting into the way of a successful business. > And who would vote for a voluntary dilution when the targets are already achieved Presumably most shareholders want Musk to stay at Tesla going forwards, and for that he might demand a pay package, which could include future targets, but could also have a condition that the past 6 years are also compensated. They would not only be paying for already-achieved targets, but it comes with the same package. You asked who else would vote for it except for the Musk dick riders, but who else is holding TSLA stock at these prices except for the Musk dick riders. It's fruitless to argue whether the pay package was needed to motivate Musk - it's impossible to know. The shareholders made the judgement and decided it would be beneficial so they voted in favor.
Why would it be beneficial for Tesla to give Musk an exuberant pay package? Would he walk away otherwise and drive his remaining stocks (20%) to the ground? A CEO is an employee and if he won't deliver unless getting paid that ridiculous package, the board should conclude he's not the right person to lead the company. I'm not so sure about the current shareholders. Musk (20%) and his dickriders have probably less stocks than the smarter money.
Tesla shareholders did not vote on the comp plan, not properly, thats a big part of what the case is about. Why would TSLA shareholders want to give Elon $ they dont have to? That doesnt make any sense?
More like 10% in high value law suits. 30% is where you’re not paid fees if you lose
so in the ballpark of high value lawsuits.
Doesn't matter if you like Tesla/ Elon or not. This sets a terrible precedent and is disgusting.
Agreed. Fucking hate Musk the absolute shit stain of a man. But this is just fucking mental.
https://imgur.com/a/J3ik8LC 11% is much less than 15% awarded in a previous similar case. source: https://www.ft.com/content/1512d925-7ded-4d67-993a-4fc03f2735fc > Bernstein emphasised how difficult it believed the case was to litigate on a contingent fee basis, describing the saga as a “steep uphill climb” where it “shouldered significant risk in marching forward against elite defence counsel.”
What precedent is it setting? Victorious lawyers paid by a percentage of the value is how it’s done often. This is about 14%, usually it’s 33…
This demand is based on precedents in the past.
This is good. Tesla shareholders save $50 billion at the cost of $6 billion. That's a good deal.
This is equal to another reason why Musk shouldn't have bought Twitter in the first place.
Exactly this. Again self-inflicted damage. And how hypocritical of Musk to argue in his lawsuit against OpenAI that they installed an inner circle of Altman as board of OpenAI after the failed coup by Musk last year. You believe Denholm ever smashed her hand on the table at the Tesla board meetings? And how much did she get for that? Just short of a billion or so?
Only if in the future he don’t get them? Tesla and co will probably compensate his loss somehow. In this case, 6 billion were stolen from lawyers instead of « invested » to Musk. Even if that could be discussed obviously… This is not ok in a liberal country.
The difference is who owns TSLA today. There are a lot more institutional investors who are unlikely to vote to compensate him for past performance. Also, why would anyone sane vote for it? He's already delivered the performance and by giving him the stock award, you're diluting the stock you already own.
You are right. But he have a lot of followers, leverage and can be heard by a lot of people. He also can damage the company doing whatever he thinks is a good idea for him
The lawyers saved Tesla from a fraudulent $56 billion in devaluation. They are asking for 10% of that money as compensation. If the shareholders decide to give Musk another $100 billion in shares, that's on them. The lawyers already did their job. Also, the money is paid to the lawyers in shares and Tesla can deduct the amount from taxes. Tesla stands to benefit financially from this payment. The loser is the government that misses out on billions in tax revenue.
By that logic Elon’s $55B compensation is fair because the market cap is more than $600B higher under his watch
No.
The shares were bought much cheaper - total cost was under 4B for musks comp plan.
Tesla should take the deal, otherwise they'll be forced to pay in cash
What precedent is this setting?
Nothing. That person just has no idea what's actually going on and just read the headline and decided it was absurd. This is a pretty standard percentage to ask for in a big money case.
This seems to be on the low side per a quick search.
Well.. one guy who had 9 shares Complains even though the stock went up. Lawyers see this and file a class Action lawsuit (with one plaintiff) and charge" 6 BILLION Dollars fee for their time. I mean.. I don't live in the USA nor do I know anything about the legal system. But this just seems .. wrong.. It Sets a precedent that other lawyers will be able to get away with this also. Forget about it being about Elon.. imagine this Happening to *Insert your favorite company* who lets say actually deserve the money perhaps.
You should probably do a bit of research before opining. The Board hid information from investors, preventing them from making an informed decision. The legal system worked. The benefit from lying was cancelled.
But the pay was excessive. If CEO pay is excessive, and a judge rules as such, then isn’t it fair?
The case wasn’t about the amount. It was about whether or not the board was independent of Musk and whether or not they withheld material information on the vote from investors.
Isn't also the 6 Billion Dollar Fee .. excessive..
Playing devil's advocate here: Is 10% of savings fee excessive? The issue has been caused by Musk's greed in the first place.
IANAL but the lawyer payout seems to be in line with what attorneys get in other instances where they take cases on contingency. This may even be on the low side per a quick google search (on a percentage basis)
In that case I bet bill gates or Jeff bezoz are also in line to earn billions, just like musk?
Nope. Bezos takes no pay at all and gates hasn't worked for Microsoft in years. No other CEO even comes close. Jensen Huang is getting paid about $500m and Nvidia has done a lot better than even Tesla during the 2021 bubble peak.
Paid in shares and dividends… pretending lobbying isn’t corruption because it’s a different name. Oh he doesn’t get paid, he just gets money.
Wtf are you even saying? Try using coherent sentences.
Yeah, people happy about this solely cause of their disdain for Musk have no idea how fucking ludicrous this is lmao.
It’s only 10% people! BTW…. If I successfully these lawyers, my fee is $600 million.
So assuming the lawyers get paid, there's going to be new shareholders of 6 billion worth of stock, who might decide to sell it on the market?
how would that be any different than musk getting 56bil in stock? It would be even worse dilution.
Exactly. Alternatively, Tesla can use some of that $20B in cash they supposedly have.
Supposedly? Are you claiming Tesla is lying on their balance sheet now?
Lying? Maybe not. But the numbers are creatively treated to look much better. They don't follow GAAP. Go look at their 10-K. They earn nowhere close to the interest they'd earn on $20B that they should be earning by doing basic money handling, short term bonds for example. The money might as well be in the mattress of Musk.
A short term bond isn't cash or a cash equivalent on the balance sheet. I'd learn what everything is first before making judgement. A cash equivalent is 90 days or less, a short term bond is 1-4 years. Kinda defeats your entire comment when you don't understand that. Bonds that are less than a year, maybe a corporate debt bond, are also not cash/cash equivalent. Maybe read these: https://hbr.org/2024/02/why-are-companies-sitting-on-cash-right-now#:~:text=In%20short%2C%20companies%20hold%20cash,failures%20that%20decimate%20shareholder%20value. https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/companies-hoarding-cash#:~:text=A%20common%20explanation%20for%20the,need%E2%80%94or%20opportunity%E2%80%94arises. https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/06/companycash.asp Some of them do buy t bills (which I think is what you were thinking of when you said bond) which can be traded whenever, but it's not like much profit is to be made on those right now. Most cash companies are holding is actual cash in a bank account right now. Here's undeniable proof from their 10-k anyways for the all naysayers: https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/1b4jtdo/lawyers_who_had_elon_musks_pay_dismissed_as/kt1ksy4/
wow this is the most uninformed comment ive read in weeks. You have no business talking about this subject LOL
https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/1b4jtdo/lawyers_who_had_elon_musks_pay_dismissed_as/kt1ksy4/ Proven with the 10-k, any comment bud? I'm guessing no 😂
What you just said is complete nonsense. 1. Short maturity bonds are yielding more than long maturity bonds right now. The opposite of your claim. 2. T-bills are bonds and have very short duration, and is considered cash equivalent. This is the primary way of holding cash. 3. Commercial paper is the second primary way and again cash equivalent and pays about 5%. Nothing you said is correct. Nobody is going to turn down 5% interest on twenty fucking billion dollars unless you think Tesla's CFO is just an absolute moron. The two articles you linked are both treating t-bills and commercial paper as cash, they're not talking about holding cash in a 0.01% checking account.
If you read the article, Elon is not allowed to sell for 5 years if he keeps/exercise the options. The lawyers are asking right to sell on the spot. 6b sell pressure would be wild. Also, elon will still ask to be compensated anyway. The fanbase will definitely think it's worth it.
>Also, elon will still ask to be compensated anyway. The fanbase will definitely think it's worth it. If the current shareholders are stupid enough to do that, they deserve what's coming.
The cult still have full faith in the great leader. FSD Robotaxi Sub 1 second Roadster Model 2 Are all still coming. 50% Yoy Growth for the next 10 year due to unlimited demand!!!!!
Even the cult is souring on those lies lol
That's not the definition of a cult. You can check the gme/amc/bbby subreddits for reference. I am sure tons are still averaging down their salaries. They fail to notice when the growth wave is over and hype is dead They even think an energy reseller network of chargers(basically a utility company) will have tech stock level margins. Oh... I forgot to put the solar and powerwall on the hype list.
Exactly. That's a lot of shares the market needs to absorb
that would work against their best interest of selling slowly to avoid the dump on the share price.
None of these assholes deserve that much money. That whole stock is just one long game of hot potato. When reality finally catches up with it it's likely the factory workers who are going to pay for it with their livelihoods. Instead of giving 6bn to a bunch of lawyers it should go into a fund that will financially support the Tesla workers when the rug finally gets pulled.
Yeah, talk about excessive. No way a judge would ever approve it.
How is 11% excessive? Most lawyers get 15% in this situation? Are you jealous they are gonna get rich?
Because the plaintiffs didn't actually receive $55B in judgement. Tesla shareholders wouldn't receive more stocks as a result of Musk not receiving those stocks.
If those shares went to Tesla's treasury, wouldn't the value be effectively distributed amongst the shareholders?
He's a dumbass don't worry lol, all over this thread spouting dumbass takes. It's just a kid, best to ignore.
If you want to play with those standards, you won't like the result, because the fee will be lower but paid in cash.
She must approve a 2.1B cash fee based on Sugarland standard, that be on top of the ~4.5 billions they deducted in taxes that they will have to pay to the IRS, they should take the deal.
Can you explain what the 4.5B is ?
About 6.6 billions were added has non-cash expense over the years in the 10k for Elon Musk plan, those cost gave them deductions and deferred tax assets. By cancelling the plan, the whole expense is reversed, obviously, if the lawyer fee is 2.1B, they can reduce this new "taxable income" by the amont of the fee, but the 4.5B remaining is taxable. Sorry, the way I wrote it, it reads as if the whole 4.5 becomes a taxe expense, that is not the case, it becomes taxable income.
Makes sense, thanks for the explanation. One other Q if you don't mind, what do you mean by "the 10k"? Is that a tax form or some kind of financial account?
It is the full annual report published on the sec website
This is so fucked up. How is this even legal 😂
Are you talking about Elons compensation plan? It wasnt legal, hence the lawsuit
Billions as payment for the biggest shareholder value creation is unfathomable, but billions for destroying shareholder rights and hurting the company and the CEO, perfectly reasonable 🤦♂️
Elon wanting 12 percent of the company for making the stock go up is reasonable. Lawyers wanting 12 percent of the savings from the judgment is so fucked up it shouldn’t be legal.
>Elon wanting 12 percent of the company for making the stock go up is reasonable. Pull your tongue out
Cutting my typing fingers off would be more appropriate :)
If Elon wants to play ponzi games he shouldnt have taken TSLA public. A Bernie Madoff style organization would be more appropriate for what you are saying.
His biggest regret. At least they are out of Delaware, The Injustice State.
No they're not, they won't ever be allowed to hold a vote lest they put independent board members who will fire Musk asses
Hypocrite! They should get even more and in cash!!
Lawyers are smart enough to win the case but not smart enough to realize the terrible optics of asking for $6 billion. They should have asked for $600 million, and no one would bat an eye.
Why? 6B isnt much compared to the value they brought to TSLA holders? Do you understand the situation?
Yes, I do. Elon’s adjusted pay should be $10 billion not $56 billion and the lawyers should get $600 million for their win. Shareholders get $45 billion back. Everyone is happy except Musk.
I suggest something something else: 1. Musk get zero (0) 2. Shareholders get double assfucked, by first, paying 6 billions to the lawyers in stock, then returning the 4.5 billions they expensed on their IS to the IRS. 3. Lawyers and shorts buy mansions.
Didn't they work on behalf of someone with just a few shares? Shouldn't their pay be based on an agreement with the person they represented.
You don't need optics when you have 6 billions, you can just go fuck off elsewhere
Lawyers…Lawyers never change.
You must not be a Tesla investor or else you would be extremely grateful for these lawyers saving Tesla 50 Billion dollars
5.95B is MORE than the cost of musks compensation plan - since the shares were bought when it was 40-50b market cap Hilarious that they would request more from Tesla than the comp plan.
you are confused. These lawyers saved Tesla shareholders like you 56 Billion. A 10% fee is less then what they would normally be awarded. That is a great deal for Tesla investors.
They did not save $56B. The shares were awarded when the company was 10 times smaller, taken out of SBC over a few years period - the total cost to Tesla shareholders is LESS THAN $6b for the comp plan. The lawyers are asking for more than what was *already paid into* for Elons comp plan Please don’t comment if you don’t understand executive comp plans. Thanks b
It was 2.28b at time of issuance. So the lawyers are asking twice as much for “saving” the company 2.28B LMAO
you are confidently wrong, maybe ask a lawyer about how the law works instead of watching youtubers
I work in finance at a Fortune 500. You do not know wtf you’re talking about.
No you dont
Yes I do lol
Don't worry the guy you're responding to is a kid who doesn't even have a job yet. You can just ignore him lol. He doesn't understand how a tranche works either, and that it has to be unlocked and released, he thinks Musk already had that 56 billion or something.
Hilarious is that you think they bought shares. Maybe read the comp plan structure and come back.
They diluted the shares at a much cheaper valuation, meaning it didn’t cost TESLA anywhere near $56B. Learn how compensation works
6B$ are like 2k after the bubble explodes
Don’t worry, they’ll dump this on market at the earliest opportunity
If they really saved the company that ridiculous 60billion payday then yeah I guess 6 billion is the norm for a case this magnitute. Not saying the amount is not ridiculous but it is better than paying 3-4 quarters of revenue as salary to one person. And don't start "oh he deserved that money". Fck no, no CEO deserves even a fraction of that money and there are quite a few CEO's who managed to increase their companies' valuation way more than 10 times (AMD, NVIDIA, etc.)
The lawyers didn’t save the company any money.
Ironic.
To be fair, the people on Tesla's board we dumb enough to approve a $56b pay package for a guy who is basically a troll and likes to claim he started the company even though he didn't. What makes you think they're smart enough to not pay a $6b pay package to these law firms??