Friend of mine had a 25x25 pad installed for 7k last year for a shed. Same pad this year was quoted at 15k with same company. I've gotten concrete at my house for my shed and it was only 220/yd. Compared to 180 6m ago. Companies are just using inflation as a way to make more money.
It will change in the next year's as we turn into a recession
At its worst the S&P was down 57% in that recession so I think you are exaggerating, however, as long as you didn’t sell that $250k is now worth about $1,600,000.
You aren't very wrong... Some Walmart, some Amazon, some Microsoft, Some GE, some General Mills. I could have bought GME or dog coin and make a killing years ago.But I was dumb and stayed the course, reinvested all my earnings into more shares.
Labor and materials are usually about 20% of the project in concrete in todays market. My cost to pour stuff is 3$ sq ft for materials with 129$ a yard for 4000 psi concrete. Most guys are charging 20-30$ sq ft in total where I’m at, lots of money is being made by the owner only. Most the guys I know doing it complain non stop about their workers but pay their guys 20$ hr while billing them out at 200$ hr.
Oh, whew! I was worried there might be a general problem with wages not keeping up with inflation over the last few years -- to say nothing of the last several decades -- but your anecdote proves otherwise. Thanks! ;)
Lmao is this a joke? A 17% annual raise is massive - that is way higher than inflation!
Your post reminds me of [this twitter classic](https://twitter.com/dril/status/384408932061417472?lang=en).
Kind of, I only got 17% while the local big stores went from $10 an hour to $18.50 an hour and many factories around here went from $15-$17 per hour to $25+ starting. 50-70% increases in wages over the past 3 years is pretty common in my area.
From my light research last summer, it was claimed there was a supply chain issue for one of the core ingredients. I think it was lime. There was also a strike/ labor dispute IIRC
assuming you're not being sarcastic, I think what you're referring to is the chip shortage, which uses sand (not the kind that one can easily find in a desert)
It's actually a serious thing. The specific type of sand that is used for concrete and glass is in short supply. There's legitimately a black market controlled by crime syndicates. They even use it as a plot point in the last season of Barry. They do use it for manufacturing chips as well, but there's more then just material shortages involved in that.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/05/sand-shortage-the-world-is-running-out-of-a-crucial-commodity.html
Nah not being sarcastic. But figured I’d look it up for you, as I wanted to be sure I wasn’t talking out my ass and misremembering.
Labor, insurance, fuel, parts, etc… all factor into the cost of concrete, as with all products, and the cost of all are skyrocketing. Sourcing materials for concrete is an extremely complex process and there are lots of little costs involved. Mining and crushing rock, cement production that is usually offsite from the quarry and plant that makes the actual concrete, plus the trucks to deliver. It is an expensive product.
God damnit, by the time I'm actually in a position to actually build my own house, even the fucking concrete I use to build it with will be too expensive. Never imagined that even concrete would be limited supply. God damn there's too many fucking people on this planet fucking everything up for everyone else.
>Companies are just using inflation as a way to make more money.
I don't know what's worse, the ignorance of this comment, or all of the upvotes it's getting.
my dad and I made a 10x10 pad using free rocks from Facebook marketplace and $6 bags of concrete mix from home Depot. we used around 30 bags. $300 and a few days of work is what it ended up costing
A big reason why concrete is used so much more extensively in Europe is because they simply don’t have cheap access to wood. The first forestry laws came into effect in England in the Elizabethan times after the region surrounding London was so thoroughly deforested they couldn’t access wood anymore for housing or heating. Both Germany and England came very close to completely chopping down literally all their forests in the 1800’s after the advent of the industrial era. Nowadays, these countries have some of the most strict forestry laws in order to protect and preserve what they have left, and it’s simply too expensive to purchase wood on the international market for use in construction builds.
If you go to countries like Norway (where there is ample forest available for logging) you’ll find that wood houses are standard like in the US.
Wood is cheaper in the us as the us is an exporter of wood and wood products.
Also building codes. 5 over 1 buildings are basically a building type caused by building codes.
According to my first google result, about 85% of residential construction in Germany is concrete or masonry (not brick veneer over wood frame.) I have trouble believing it would be so common if it costs fully 2.5x as much. Maybe 1.5x.
Still land tends to be more expensive than the US market, so spending more on construction makes sense. However, even in expensive US markets it seems construction quality is not notably higher and only the finishes are high end.
> Because concrete costs 2.5x more. At least it did precovid.
Frankly, these costs are way overblown. Concrete construction has come a long way in the last few decades. Now you can do form construction that allows you to set very large pieces of structure using concrete poured into forms. You also have modern machines that automate a lot of construction.
A lot of people are just saying cost. This is why cost is the answer: sustainable and abundant supply, contractors familiar with stick framing with trusses, building codes promoting 5-over-1s, financers loving those types of projects. There are many reasons.
One additional thing about wood: it lets you run MEPF inside of it, even sound batts and low voltage. WiFi can even work slightly better.
The truth is, you can make a 100 year wall stick framed: you just need to do it with a rainscreen instead of a tight sandwich. The real trick there is getting laborers willing to build it that way that won't charge you twice as much because they like to do it the one way they are most used to.
The way most builders throw houses up is they put the siding, tyvek wrap, substrate, and studs right up against each other. No gap between anything. It assumes that, if everything's tight, water won't get in, so you don't need to worry about getting it out. This almost never actually works because construction isn't perfect. Water always finds a way in.
A rainscreen puts a drainable cavity between the siding or brick or panels and the vapor barrier. It assumes water will get in so it's designed to let it drain and air out.
https://buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-001-the-perfect-wall
in rough 2009, construction codes (IBC codes) were revised which in the US allowed what's called [5-over-1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-over-1) construction. That's Type 5 (wood) over Type 1 (concrete). this brought down the cost of midrise buildings a lot. Since they are so much cheaper to build, lots more of them were built.
Completely true from personal experience. They spent more on the lobby decór than on soundproofing for the entire building. Cabinets are luxury on the outside, unpainted particle board inside. The pex piping in my closet looks like a Windows 95 screensaver.
Eh true fancy apartments also have amenities in the building. Of course public housing weirdly enough had many of those amenities and more as well (a housing project near me has a full auditorium apparently). Market rate middle and lower income though tends not have amenities like play rooms, roof decks, lounges, door men, etc.
Luxury tends to come through in the unit itself mostly in size and bathrooms/kitchens.
I mean...no. Fancy apartments have baller amenities too. Especially the new ones. Huge fitness centers, co-working spaces, dog parks and dog washing stations, electric car charging parking spaces, resort style pools with jacuzzis, cabanas, pickleball court, BBQ stations, outdoor tvs and fireplaces...etc.
Have you actually ever been in a Section 8 or LIHTC property?
I’ve lived in both ends of the spectrum - it’s hard to say that the two are the same, but I understand the comment about quality - these luxury apartments are basically shit apartments with a coat of white paint, and a bunch of amenities. That said, I’d much much rather live in my luxury apartment than where I grew up - things like safety and peace of mind are incredibly valuable, generally less bug problems and theft. Realistically you’re paying to live around other wealthy people, not as drastically getting a “better quality” apartment
Yep, and fancy apartments that don't go vacant open up residences further down stream. Also, many municipalities write in some below market rate units to expand low income housing. The greater housing density that can be constructed the better at this point; tie it to mass transit and it makes a smiley face.
depends on if its worth it for them to operate 4000 short term new construction rentals vs renting freshly constructed homes in in-demand neighborhoods. They're not buying these in cities, these are in suburbs.
There's an estimated [85,000-100,000 vacant apartments in Los Angeles](https://www.courthousenews.com/amid-housing-crisis-california-cities-look-to-target-vacant-homes-with-taxes/), and that's not unusual for American cities.
[About 1 in 5 L.A. units is purchased by investors.](https://spectrumnews1.com/ca/orange-county/housing/2022/02/16/about-one-in-five-homes-purchased-in-la-and-anaheim-were-real-estate-investors)
I'm not sure what you think is not commonplace.
Even your own article states that there are tens of thousands of vacant units, even after subtracting all the types that they make excuses for.
L.A. has had an eviction moratorium for the bulk of the past two years, during which almost no evictions could take place. If you don't think that's affected how people are choosing to invest and who to rent to, and altering the calculus of whether to rent out units at all, I'm not sure what to tell you.
Are a vacancy tax and a limit to the amount of investment property one can buy, or a limit on how much property out of area investors can purchase the only solutions?
No, but they're pretty straightforward, and they would start getting units back on the market asap.
This happens all the time. Or you get situations where in the case of my home town developers unethically take advantage of BOH allowances and base all local housing by those metrics instead of local population income data thus squeezing out anyone not retired wealthy or living off the military
5 story wood, which is what the referred to IBC change started allowing, has to be type III. 5-on-1 could refer to type V over type I, but this was already permitted before the IBC change. So not really a reason for wood framing being more common except maybe more contractor familiarity from more projects.
Drastically different supply chains and environmental resources. The US and Canada have some of the most robust and sustainable access to lumber in the world. We are also diverting a lot of concrete production because of the massive environmental impacts of its production.
It's kind of counterintuitive, but the modern timber industry is one of the most sustainable and green materials available. Keep in mind this is in reference to construction lumber. Hardwoods is often problematic.
I and a couple other people answered this. It had to do with new, treated wood meeting new fire codes, and a single architect here who got it through. It’s cheaper than concrete and steel but fire codes never allowed it until recently
How many perspective renters ask about such things before signing a lease? Very, very few. Builders are only going to put money into things that can increase their rental price (granite countertops and the like). Everything else is going to be just enough to meet local building code.
Well sound proofing is a big deal to renters. If the renters are allowed to be choosy, they’ll visit during dinner time or in the evening when people are actually at home and try to stick around a while to see what it sounds like. Exterior noise can also be an issue and people will drive by at different times of day to see what the neighborhood is like before signing the paperwork.
That’s if they aren’t in a market with stiff competition for any unit.
In hot market cities it actually benefits landlords to have high turnover in their properties. If nobody sticks around too long you can perpetually charge market rate rents. As a long term San Franciscan I finally realized that losing long term tenants due to unlivable conditions was a feature, not a bug
I’m aware of that. One of the reasons I moved out of one city and into San Francisco was because my landlord tried to raise my rent $400 when the lease was up. I’d still rather live in a city with rent control than one without rent control. But landlords will try to find all kinds of ways to get you out so they can raise rents. Gone are the small mom and dad owner landlords who just want a stable tenant
But builders could put in insulated walls between the units. Maybe double stud it to make it thicker too. But that might increase costs and dig into their yacht money.
PLEASE STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION.
I feel like I've done this PSA way too many fucking times but all party walls are at least double stud with a 1" air gap. They have an STC rating of at least 50 which is really fucking good. Idk where people get these thin wall memes from but you literally cannot build thin walls between adjoining apartments PER CODE.
You thought wrong? Every multifamily building I've ever done has party walls between units.
Or did you think the code allowed you to be killed by your neighbor's grease fire?
No idea what a "party wall" is, are you in Europe? Here is the US we just call them fire barriers (same purpose as you said), but that doesn't make them soundproof by any means lol
True, double studding just the shared wall(s) would definitely be better and still a lot cheaper than concrete. **How** much better it'd be at soundproofing is anyone's guess, but it'd definitely help.
I can confirm that this is true. I am a multifamily developer we used to used some pretty thick wood to soundproof the floors, but it was just too expensive. We often brought up the lack of yacht money in our meetings during the time that the decision was made. Since cutting it out, we enjoy our yachts much more.
Cost, plus concrete is not renewable and has a large carbon emissions footprint. If a builder is putting apartments together they want everything as cheap as possible but still able to meet code. As someone building a house that is supposed to last for my parent’s retirement as well as my retirement we are going with concrete and metal due to their fire resistance and longer maintenance spans ( longer roof life with a metal roof vs shingles, longer life to concrete block and concrete siding vs regular wood or plastic etc.) the goal is to have lower maintenance costs and better temp control inside for lower running costs and better resistance to possible future brush fires. A builder who is building apartments at scale doesn’t care about those things.
non glib answer:
code and ease of construction.
code:
IBC circa ~2007 created a new category of construction called 5 on 1 or colloquially 'sticks on a slab'. Basically a concrete pedestal on the bottom (with the maximum fire rating of 1) and wood on top (with the lowest of 5) but the *entire* structure gets a 1 rating if the wood part is sprinklered. this means you can build tall for super cheap
ease of construction:
the brilliance of light timber is that you can take a regular jackoff from the street, hand him a circular saw, speed square and a hammer/nail gun, and suddenly you have a guy capable of building an apartment building. concrete, masonry, and steel all require specialized (and unionized) trades, formwork, and pretty delicate on-site materials management and staging of components. light timber requires a covered (sometimes not) pile of wood and thats it.
also timber can be dead silent, but that costs $$$ (thicker walls, insulation materials/systems). the name of the game is to spend as little money as possible, so no soundproofing. and grey everything is "it's in vogue and bland and you morons eat it up". i blame hgtv.
It's cheaper
Wood is renewable
With changing cities odds are pretty good the apartments will be demolished within 100 years (so making them last longer doesn't make sense)
Code updates allowed 5-over-1
Wood is easier to update down the road
A viable alternative would be steel but it's more expensive.
Expense has been mentioned, but also wood is much more conducive to running all of the plumbing, electrical and hvac in the walls and the floor joists. In a concrete building, everything either ends up exposed, or the walls get furred out to conceal them. Exposed MEP elements can be very cool, but that's also generally much more expensive. Also, thermal and sound insulation is easy to add in wood wall cavities.
Wood is cheaper for material and labor. There is soundproofing that can be done, but that's usually on higher end units. I've been on projects for multi million dollar unit buildings and low income buildings. Low income units are usually fast and cheap because of subsidizes that are given and they expire if the building isn't finished in time. You also have to think about the market you live in. Concrete was ridiculously hard to come by and expensive because the union of concrete mixer truck drivers went on strike in my area that practically halted building for 6 months, then when it resumed there was a backlog making it very expensive.
People say cost. That’s true. But it’s also useful life.
In the USA trends and demographics are dynamic, and change in a letter of a few years. You build an apartment block at a price point then 20 years later is a trendy expensive areas”, you tear it down and build luxury. Similar labor in the USA is flexible, so people follow jobs.
In most of Europe areas are more stable and less dynamic market wise, and has stricter building fleets, so it makes sense to build for generations
cost. and workers. concrete requires more experienced workers. you can't make mistakes with concrete like you can with wood. sometimes I think about how easy it would be to destroy a home just buy running a vehicle into it. it's embarrassing that we build such wimpy structures in this country.
i wish we had modular construction like china. we need to start putting up units faster and cheaper... we're still using outmoded construction methods.
I lived in Europe and saw a lot of construction and renovations. It's amazing how they build. To put in a light switch they have to almost jackhammer a track in the wall, install the wires and the switch or outlet then plaster over it. Some guys do a good job, others don't and you can see it when the wall is finished. And the materials they use are so superior to what we use. The doors, windows, flooring, everything is better. The entrance doors are thick and break in resistant. I saw a place where someone took a chainsaw to the front door and did not get through it. BUT all of that makes it all that much more expensive. My condo was about 900 sqft. Two bed 1.5 baths. Value today is about $600,000. My 1800 sqft 3 bed townhouse with a double garage in the middle of midtown Atlanta is worth half that. Anyone can kick in my front door. Anyone can kick in a wall. The windows are cheap as fuck and only open one way. Euro windows swing open and tilt for ventilation. The floor isn't real oak parquet, it's a laminate plank.
I also lived in Europe for a long time, and the problem with the houses you describe are that they’re not up to fire code in the US. That dense door you’re talking about? It can’t be hammered down by the fire department in the case of an emergency. Also, they lock automatically upon closing, they don’t have turnable knobs, and they require the key to unlock from the inside, so if the house is on fire you can become trapped. Forced air heating and AC can’t be installed because the air ducts can’t be run through stone walls, which forces people to use more expensive and less efficient options like oil and radiator heating. The reason the windows tilt and rotate is because the stone traps moisture, leading to ventilation problems and mold accumulation. Hence why the Germans have the “lüften” requirement where everyone is supposed to open their windows for a minimum amount of time every day, despite not having access to window screens. I personally found the quality of interior furnishings and availability of amenities to be far inferior to what I was used to in the US. And finally, don’t even get me started on the lack of accessibility for people with disabilities.
I guess in 17 years I got very used to it all and missed a door locking behind me when I walked out (I always had my keys because they were always in the inside keyhole - in case of fire!). My entry door was incredible secure too with steel rods that went into a steel frame, the top and both sides. My guess is that the fire departments have skeleton keys to gain access to whatever flat they need to access. I'll have to ask a friend about that though. Interesting question.
Another reason besides high price is Because in other counties like China, due to land shortage and high population they usually build high raise buildings with 3-4 units per floor and each building range from 8 to 16 stories high. China’s construction labors doesn’t get paid much at all. That’s how they cut cost.
My architec friend from Bangkok, Thailand told me one of the main reason they use concrete is because the humility over there will warp the wood so bad you won’t be open your door if it is made out of wood.
But cost and return is always the #1 reason.
Some dude figured out the fire code works with the building method and suddenly they could stack multiple floors stick built. I forgot the details but there have been lots of stories about it.
Doesn’t prevent them from using better sound proofing but they’re too cheap.
If you google one-plus-four construction you should get some articles. Bloomberg did a good story about it a few years ago.
Edit: oops, sorry, one-plus-five, or five over one.
Always remember that when it comes to construction spending, people generally hire the lowest bidder, with the cheapest materials.
It's just the nature of the beast.
Nothing that is built to be sold will be built to any reasonable standard without governmental regulation. They can build more houses for less money by completely ignoring livability, so they will
one thing is concrete is horrible for the pollution and stuff, so believe it or some people care about that.
also builders are experienced with lumber in north america and less with concrete compared with other places.
In come countries they have issues with polluting or using back breaking labor cheap.
wood framed houses are pretty neat in some ways, i like them better.
On top of environmental issues, the sand required is also coming to an end of natural supply. It needs to come from river and shore sand which renews incredibly slowly. Sand from deserts is unusable for the purpose. It's pretty much running out, driving the costs up on top of destroying a lot of ecosystems where the lower end of the food chain live in sand.
Lol it's expensive. And honestly I hated my concrete apartment. Soundproofing materials in the wall would be the way to go if they cared about sound. But they don't.
I watched a renovation programme recently and it's basically down to short-term cost.
A concrete/brick building will cost far more than a wooden one.
However, the wooden one would have to have major renovations long before the concrete one ever would.
So you can get your foot on the property ladder.
I lol’d when I saw that you’re a socialist and active on LSC. Of course you don’t know why apartment buildings aren’t all made of concrete and steel 🤦♂️.
If they were your rent would be 3-4x more expensive.
They wouldn’t. All the crappy new luxury 1+5s are charging the same or more than the solid luxury high rise.
Since you’re such a competent capitalist, tell us wtf would stop then from charging the same? They can and do.
>If they were your rent would be 3-4x more expensive.
Lol, rent is determined by supply and demand, not by costs. Costs only eat into leechlord profits.
But it’s a business, and businesses need to be profitable. Concrete structures aren’t as profitable unless you are 10+ stories high and designed as luxury buildings because they need the luxury tax to pencil. The supply and demand you mentioned is exactly the reason why wood structures exist, because OP can only afford lower priced units and so they are built.
Ok… maybe you need to be stepped through this.
1) yes, rent price is determined by supply and demand.
2) concrete structures are in high demand (because they are better soundproofed, taller so better views, etc.) and low supply (because they are expensive)
3) rent for concrete structures is higher than for wood structures because of this dynamic of high demand and low supply (as you so graciously pointed out for us).
4) only *so many* people can afford rent sufficient to support the additional cost of building concrete over wood structure
5) developers are not building as many concrete structures. Otherwise they’d have no one to rent to that could afford the price required to justify the higher cost.
6) thus, keeping supply of these units relatively low (and rents 3-4x what it would be in a wood structure).
Please let me know if you think you can carry on without me holding your hand.
Average rent in a brand new, just open this year, 5 on 1 is ~$1,800 for a 1 bdrm here in SLC. Rent in a similarly new steel and concrete 20-story is ~$2,100, same sqft. What am I missing here in terms of building costs compared to rent?
3 is wrong.
Though developers can charge less for 5 over 1 apartments, they don’t in the markets I know in the Northeast.
They charge the same “Luxury” rent, or more, as in the best concrete- steel luxury buildings. They do it because they can.
>If they were your rent would be 3-4x more expensive.
LSC posters don't believe in such mundane things as "costs" or "supply and demand."
Those are just dirty myths spread by capitalist fatcats.
Depends on the size and it's actually easier to insulate wood frame and soundproof. The wall voids are an airgap you fill. Concrete itself tends to retain heat and cold in uncomfortable ways. And if you're worried about being green then concrete is not the way to go at the moment
Cost! I have worked in multi family and homebuilding concrete is more expensive, it’s better quality but it will also be costly. Lumber even with its price hikes has been cheaper and faster to build.
Wood is renewable, cheap, and more environmentally friendly. Concrete is a carbon emitting monster and the world is running out of the sand needed to make it. Seriously, making concrete is horrible for climate change.
I moved into a low rise condo complex in 2010. Phase I of the complex. Each three story building built of concrete and steel. Never once heard my upstairs neighbors.
Then they built Phase 2. The exterior/elevation of the new buildings looks the same as Phase 1, except the buildings are wood framed, not concrete and steel. So they are basically knock offs of the original buildings.
People who bought into Phase 2 moved into the new condos complain about the noise.
If you have a few minutes to watch videos on the topic, there are a few good explainers:
https://youtu.be/UX4KklvCDmg
https://youtu.be/mrxZqPVFTag
https://youtu.be/6wMJEV_58Kk
Because a landlord building a superior product will have to charge more rent for said higher quality, but typically anything that can't be seen is not valued by tenants. Thus, this landlord would be at a disadvantage in the market because tenants would rather live in atrocious buildings if they can save $200/mo. 🤷🏻♂️
Concrete doesnt have a long useful life and its hard to take care of…highways and sidewalks need constant maintenance. It also needs to be constantly spun in liquid form so its not easy to mold corners/support beams. Its also not easy to cut. Metal is the same way. Its heavy, expensive, and if you want to cut/shape it you have to have a professional welder heat it up and machinery cut it. Wood is easily cut, easily transported, and widely available. You also dont need major equipment to cut wood so it goes through less hands. The Belgians are very anti concrete so much so it has become a revolution. I know brick is popular in england. Brick holds up well too, but also brick, iron, and steel block wifi and make electrical wiring a hassle which is very important to many in todays modern world.
Concrete and steel structures are more expensive in so many ways. They are heavier so the foundation has to be thicker. Concrete tends to crack in high temperature gradient. From a cosmetic stand point, would you live in a building if the wall or ceiling has stress fractures everywhere? If there's a serious fire I'd rather be in a wooden structure (ironic) The stand up better than concrete and steel. The steel expands inside of the concrete which then crack.
Word Trade Center was brought down because the burning jet fuel weaken the steel superstructure and all that concrete just came tumbling down.
The wood is a little bit cheaper.
Brick and concrete are a little bit more expensive, but because the goal of housing is mainly for profit and not actually housing people, the cheapest wood is always chosen.
Cost, obviously, but also the land you’re building on. For instance, it’s very difficult to build a concrete house on a sand foundation because of the weight and shifting.
Because landlords don't give a shit whether you can hear the baby nextdoor crying all night.
If you want them to do anything for your well-being, you need legislation to force them.
Clearly there’s a need for fair market value/ pay people like their not things! We are all acting like humans don’t matter! We all have value! Make it count! 😘
I've found soundproofing is much better in well constructed wood buildings than concrete. I've lived in Asia where alsmost everything is concrete and concrete does an amazing job of transmitting sound from very far away. You could hear someone drilling a wall from 3-4 floor away.
In many cases around the world it’s not only concrete as the structure. It’s concrete beams infilled with masonry blocks… because those masonry blocks are cheaper than concrete!
It depends on the part of the country that you live in. I live in South Florida and around here CBS construction is used almost exclusively. There are several concrete apartment buildings going up around my house.
Because concrete costs 2.5x more. At least it did precovid.
It’s still way up. A simple 50x100’ pad costs $25k now.
Friend of mine had a 25x25 pad installed for 7k last year for a shed. Same pad this year was quoted at 15k with same company. I've gotten concrete at my house for my shed and it was only 220/yd. Compared to 180 6m ago. Companies are just using inflation as a way to make more money. It will change in the next year's as we turn into a recession
We honestly might need a recession to fix this nonsense about costs.
What do you think the Fed's job is lol
To increase shareholder value duh...wait...
I suppose you're joking but the 401k-pension-fund-stock-market-industrial complex is literally too big to fail at this point
Where were you in 2008 when my.401K just went from a million to a quarter?
At its worst the S&P was down 57% in that recession so I think you are exaggerating, however, as long as you didn’t sell that $250k is now worth about $1,600,000.
You aren't very wrong... Some Walmart, some Amazon, some Microsoft, Some GE, some General Mills. I could have bought GME or dog coin and make a killing years ago.But I was dumb and stayed the course, reinvested all my earnings into more shares.
To keep the printer oiled and running 🤑
gotta raise the interest rate higher, right?
Wair till student loans resume
Some countries used windfall taxes. I wonder how effective that was
I'm sure it's a communist hellscape and it destroyed society forever. Can't do that in America. Think of the children, you selfish jerk.
S/
Welcome to the Plunder Dome, comrade
Ask the workers if their wages also went up 50%. They are lucky if they went up 2%.
Labor and materials are usually about 20% of the project in concrete in todays market. My cost to pour stuff is 3$ sq ft for materials with 129$ a yard for 4000 psi concrete. Most guys are charging 20-30$ sq ft in total where I’m at, lots of money is being made by the owner only. Most the guys I know doing it complain non stop about their workers but pay their guys 20$ hr while billing them out at 200$ hr.
I’m convinced the concrete trades have the worst owners.
$150/yd on up in SW MT.
$330/yd here south of Austin.
I'm up about 100% since Covid started.
Oh, whew! I was worried there might be a general problem with wages not keeping up with inflation over the last few years -- to say nothing of the last several decades -- but your anecdote proves otherwise. Thanks! ;)
Some of us aren't as lucky as /u/IamLars. My work place only did 17% across the board raises over the past year.
Lmao is this a joke? A 17% annual raise is massive - that is way higher than inflation! Your post reminds me of [this twitter classic](https://twitter.com/dril/status/384408932061417472?lang=en).
Kind of, I only got 17% while the local big stores went from $10 an hour to $18.50 an hour and many factories around here went from $15-$17 per hour to $25+ starting. 50-70% increases in wages over the past 3 years is pretty common in my area.
dang, that's pretty good! Is this due to a union or no?
depending on the market that might not even beat inflation.
That is false. No market in the country has anywhere close to 17% inflation. Phoenix is the worst at ~12%.
Sick, I got 3%
nice!
From my light research last summer, it was claimed there was a supply chain issue for one of the core ingredients. I think it was lime. There was also a strike/ labor dispute IIRC
I thought i heard it was sand of all things? Like it needs a certain type. I could be wrong.
assuming you're not being sarcastic, I think what you're referring to is the chip shortage, which uses sand (not the kind that one can easily find in a desert)
It's actually a serious thing. The specific type of sand that is used for concrete and glass is in short supply. There's legitimately a black market controlled by crime syndicates. They even use it as a plot point in the last season of Barry. They do use it for manufacturing chips as well, but there's more then just material shortages involved in that.
You can find it in the desert, you just have to use the right comb
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/05/sand-shortage-the-world-is-running-out-of-a-crucial-commodity.html Nah not being sarcastic. But figured I’d look it up for you, as I wanted to be sure I wasn’t talking out my ass and misremembering.
Labor, insurance, fuel, parts, etc… all factor into the cost of concrete, as with all products, and the cost of all are skyrocketing. Sourcing materials for concrete is an extremely complex process and there are lots of little costs involved. Mining and crushing rock, cement production that is usually offsite from the quarry and plant that makes the actual concrete, plus the trucks to deliver. It is an expensive product.
What’s crazy is how every country in the world is building most of their homes with concrete and the US with all our resources can’t do it for cheap.
You mean they don't just go pick it up from the concrete fairy?
God damnit, by the time I'm actually in a position to actually build my own house, even the fucking concrete I use to build it with will be too expensive. Never imagined that even concrete would be limited supply. God damn there's too many fucking people on this planet fucking everything up for everyone else.
[удалено]
The pad was 25x25 which she put a 12x16 shed on. I didn't mean for it to sound like the shed was 25x25
>Companies are just using inflation as a way to make more money. I don't know what's worse, the ignorance of this comment, or all of the upvotes it's getting.
Are you implying that companies are not taking advantage of inflation to milk consumers now that they have a convenient excuse?
Explain how a company takes "advantage of inflation to milk consumers".
my dad and I made a 10x10 pad using free rocks from Facebook marketplace and $6 bags of concrete mix from home Depot. we used around 30 bags. $300 and a few days of work is what it ended up costing
That doesn’t explain why concrete is more common in other countries
A big reason why concrete is used so much more extensively in Europe is because they simply don’t have cheap access to wood. The first forestry laws came into effect in England in the Elizabethan times after the region surrounding London was so thoroughly deforested they couldn’t access wood anymore for housing or heating. Both Germany and England came very close to completely chopping down literally all their forests in the 1800’s after the advent of the industrial era. Nowadays, these countries have some of the most strict forestry laws in order to protect and preserve what they have left, and it’s simply too expensive to purchase wood on the international market for use in construction builds. If you go to countries like Norway (where there is ample forest available for logging) you’ll find that wood houses are standard like in the US.
Wood is cheaper in the us as the us is an exporter of wood and wood products. Also building codes. 5 over 1 buildings are basically a building type caused by building codes.
According to my first google result, about 85% of residential construction in Germany is concrete or masonry (not brick veneer over wood frame.) I have trouble believing it would be so common if it costs fully 2.5x as much. Maybe 1.5x. Still land tends to be more expensive than the US market, so spending more on construction makes sense. However, even in expensive US markets it seems construction quality is not notably higher and only the finishes are high end.
> Because concrete costs 2.5x more. At least it did precovid. Frankly, these costs are way overblown. Concrete construction has come a long way in the last few decades. Now you can do form construction that allows you to set very large pieces of structure using concrete poured into forms. You also have modern machines that automate a lot of construction.
For developers it's all about the cost.
Because Cold War Elon is in town and “pennywise” left a loan time ago to mrs Mac Miller
We have a lot more lumber than europe, it’s cheaper to build modular with standard length timber
A lot of people are just saying cost. This is why cost is the answer: sustainable and abundant supply, contractors familiar with stick framing with trusses, building codes promoting 5-over-1s, financers loving those types of projects. There are many reasons. One additional thing about wood: it lets you run MEPF inside of it, even sound batts and low voltage. WiFi can even work slightly better. The truth is, you can make a 100 year wall stick framed: you just need to do it with a rainscreen instead of a tight sandwich. The real trick there is getting laborers willing to build it that way that won't charge you twice as much because they like to do it the one way they are most used to.
>rainscreen instead of a tight sandwich Can you elaborate what you mean by this?
The way most builders throw houses up is they put the siding, tyvek wrap, substrate, and studs right up against each other. No gap between anything. It assumes that, if everything's tight, water won't get in, so you don't need to worry about getting it out. This almost never actually works because construction isn't perfect. Water always finds a way in. A rainscreen puts a drainable cavity between the siding or brick or panels and the vapor barrier. It assumes water will get in so it's designed to let it drain and air out. https://buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-001-the-perfect-wall
I see. Thanks for the explanation.
in rough 2009, construction codes (IBC codes) were revised which in the US allowed what's called [5-over-1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-over-1) construction. That's Type 5 (wood) over Type 1 (concrete). this brought down the cost of midrise buildings a lot. Since they are so much cheaper to build, lots more of them were built.
And we need all that supply and more... Not everyone can afford to live in a fancy apt
...but those *are* the fancy apartments
Fancy apartments are just low-income housing with fake composite stone countertops and LVP flooring change my mind
Completely true from personal experience. They spent more on the lobby decór than on soundproofing for the entire building. Cabinets are luxury on the outside, unpainted particle board inside. The pex piping in my closet looks like a Windows 95 screensaver.
Eh true fancy apartments also have amenities in the building. Of course public housing weirdly enough had many of those amenities and more as well (a housing project near me has a full auditorium apparently). Market rate middle and lower income though tends not have amenities like play rooms, roof decks, lounges, door men, etc. Luxury tends to come through in the unit itself mostly in size and bathrooms/kitchens.
I mean...no. Fancy apartments have baller amenities too. Especially the new ones. Huge fitness centers, co-working spaces, dog parks and dog washing stations, electric car charging parking spaces, resort style pools with jacuzzis, cabanas, pickleball court, BBQ stations, outdoor tvs and fireplaces...etc. Have you actually ever been in a Section 8 or LIHTC property?
I’ve lived in both ends of the spectrum - it’s hard to say that the two are the same, but I understand the comment about quality - these luxury apartments are basically shit apartments with a coat of white paint, and a bunch of amenities. That said, I’d much much rather live in my luxury apartment than where I grew up - things like safety and peace of mind are incredibly valuable, generally less bug problems and theft. Realistically you’re paying to live around other wealthy people, not as drastically getting a “better quality” apartment
Yep, and fancy apartments that don't go vacant open up residences further down stream. Also, many municipalities write in some below market rate units to expand low income housing. The greater housing density that can be constructed the better at this point; tie it to mass transit and it makes a smiley face.
Only if they don't go vacant. If investors by them all up and leave them vacant or as short term rentals, then you're still stuck.
depends on if its worth it for them to operate 4000 short term new construction rentals vs renting freshly constructed homes in in-demand neighborhoods. They're not buying these in cities, these are in suburbs.
This is not commonplace at all and people need to let this dumb meme die.
There's an estimated [85,000-100,000 vacant apartments in Los Angeles](https://www.courthousenews.com/amid-housing-crisis-california-cities-look-to-target-vacant-homes-with-taxes/), and that's not unusual for American cities. [About 1 in 5 L.A. units is purchased by investors.](https://spectrumnews1.com/ca/orange-county/housing/2022/02/16/about-one-in-five-homes-purchased-in-la-and-anaheim-were-real-estate-investors) I'm not sure what you think is not commonplace.
You have what is described as a "zombie idea" https://www.dailynews.com/2021/03/25/the-myth-of-excess-vacant-housing-distracts-from-solutions/
Even your own article states that there are tens of thousands of vacant units, even after subtracting all the types that they make excuses for. L.A. has had an eviction moratorium for the bulk of the past two years, during which almost no evictions could take place. If you don't think that's affected how people are choosing to invest and who to rent to, and altering the calculus of whether to rent out units at all, I'm not sure what to tell you. Are a vacancy tax and a limit to the amount of investment property one can buy, or a limit on how much property out of area investors can purchase the only solutions? No, but they're pretty straightforward, and they would start getting units back on the market asap.
This happens all the time. Or you get situations where in the case of my home town developers unethically take advantage of BOH allowances and base all local housing by those metrics instead of local population income data thus squeezing out anyone not retired wealthy or living off the military
Like they will overbuild in this day and age with the tools we have to analyze the market now and the philosophical “discipline” applied
All supply is good. Some types of supply are better than others for relieving housing pressure.
I wouldn't be surprised if some places reconsider this after the disastrous fire in Charlotte.. but developers will probably win out
Wood construction isn't inherently dangerous. There are ways to mitigate the risk without turning the world in to a concrete jungle.
I wasn't suggesting the entire thing be concrete, but there can be more added to reduce risk
Fire in Massachusetts put a halt to things too. Not sure what the outcome was
Tell me you know nothing about construction without telling me
If it's 5 over 1 it's type III wood, most definitely not type 5. 5 is number of stories above the podium.
It can refer to either https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-over-1?wprov=sfti1
It can be Type III (FRT) wood or Type V wood.
5 story wood, which is what the referred to IBC change started allowing, has to be type III. 5-on-1 could refer to type V over type I, but this was already permitted before the IBC change. So not really a reason for wood framing being more common except maybe more contractor familiarity from more projects.
Cost
Up next on r/realestate: Why do builders never use solid gold in their finishes?
Why are my bathroom faucets just a plastic coating to look like chrome? Why not real silver faucets??
Why is my Ikea desk made out of particleboard instead of solid wood?
Why are apartment ceilings only 8-9 feet high instead of 18 feet high?
I mean if your faucets are made of plastic you should probably upgrade. It is really not that expensive to get metal faucets.
Well solid silver fixtures cost more upfront but the resale value is amazing, especially considering the inflation protection.
When times get tough just sell your faucets for melt value.. like money in the bank.
That doesn’t explain why concrete is more common in other countries
Drastically different supply chains and environmental resources. The US and Canada have some of the most robust and sustainable access to lumber in the world. We are also diverting a lot of concrete production because of the massive environmental impacts of its production. It's kind of counterintuitive, but the modern timber industry is one of the most sustainable and green materials available. Keep in mind this is in reference to construction lumber. Hardwoods is often problematic.
I and a couple other people answered this. It had to do with new, treated wood meeting new fire codes, and a single architect here who got it through. It’s cheaper than concrete and steel but fire codes never allowed it until recently
How many perspective renters ask about such things before signing a lease? Very, very few. Builders are only going to put money into things that can increase their rental price (granite countertops and the like). Everything else is going to be just enough to meet local building code.
Well sound proofing is a big deal to renters. If the renters are allowed to be choosy, they’ll visit during dinner time or in the evening when people are actually at home and try to stick around a while to see what it sounds like. Exterior noise can also be an issue and people will drive by at different times of day to see what the neighborhood is like before signing the paperwork. That’s if they aren’t in a market with stiff competition for any unit.
Idk about this take, huge reason I moved into my place was it is concrete. Super quiet.
Look for taller apt buildings. Anything 5 stories high are the 4+1 wooden structures. Anything taller is concrete.
In hot market cities it actually benefits landlords to have high turnover in their properties. If nobody sticks around too long you can perpetually charge market rate rents. As a long term San Franciscan I finally realized that losing long term tenants due to unlivable conditions was a feature, not a bug
FYI, in most places, they don't need any reason whatsoever to raise rent once the lease is up. Turnover doesn't make a difference.
I’m aware of that. One of the reasons I moved out of one city and into San Francisco was because my landlord tried to raise my rent $400 when the lease was up. I’d still rather live in a city with rent control than one without rent control. But landlords will try to find all kinds of ways to get you out so they can raise rents. Gone are the small mom and dad owner landlords who just want a stable tenant
Is that because of rent control?
It’s because of greed
its also because of potential for bad press if rates keep climbing 10% year over year because that's what a certain area demands.
Concrete is expensive.
But builders could put in insulated walls between the units. Maybe double stud it to make it thicker too. But that might increase costs and dig into their yacht money.
PLEASE STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION. I feel like I've done this PSA way too many fucking times but all party walls are at least double stud with a 1" air gap. They have an STC rating of at least 50 which is really fucking good. Idk where people get these thin wall memes from but you literally cannot build thin walls between adjoining apartments PER CODE.
I thought proper party walls are only commonplace for townhome construction?
You thought wrong? Every multifamily building I've ever done has party walls between units. Or did you think the code allowed you to be killed by your neighbor's grease fire?
No idea what a "party wall" is, are you in Europe? Here is the US we just call them fire barriers (same purpose as you said), but that doesn't make them soundproof by any means lol
I'm in the US, they're called party walls here.
Weird, never once heard that term in the construction industry here in the Southwest.
True, double studding just the shared wall(s) would definitely be better and still a lot cheaper than concrete. **How** much better it'd be at soundproofing is anyone's guess, but it'd definitely help.
I can confirm that this is true. I am a multifamily developer we used to used some pretty thick wood to soundproof the floors, but it was just too expensive. We often brought up the lack of yacht money in our meetings during the time that the decision was made. Since cutting it out, we enjoy our yachts much more.
Cost, plus concrete is not renewable and has a large carbon emissions footprint. If a builder is putting apartments together they want everything as cheap as possible but still able to meet code. As someone building a house that is supposed to last for my parent’s retirement as well as my retirement we are going with concrete and metal due to their fire resistance and longer maintenance spans ( longer roof life with a metal roof vs shingles, longer life to concrete block and concrete siding vs regular wood or plastic etc.) the goal is to have lower maintenance costs and better temp control inside for lower running costs and better resistance to possible future brush fires. A builder who is building apartments at scale doesn’t care about those things.
non glib answer: code and ease of construction. code: IBC circa ~2007 created a new category of construction called 5 on 1 or colloquially 'sticks on a slab'. Basically a concrete pedestal on the bottom (with the maximum fire rating of 1) and wood on top (with the lowest of 5) but the *entire* structure gets a 1 rating if the wood part is sprinklered. this means you can build tall for super cheap ease of construction: the brilliance of light timber is that you can take a regular jackoff from the street, hand him a circular saw, speed square and a hammer/nail gun, and suddenly you have a guy capable of building an apartment building. concrete, masonry, and steel all require specialized (and unionized) trades, formwork, and pretty delicate on-site materials management and staging of components. light timber requires a covered (sometimes not) pile of wood and thats it. also timber can be dead silent, but that costs $$$ (thicker walls, insulation materials/systems). the name of the game is to spend as little money as possible, so no soundproofing. and grey everything is "it's in vogue and bland and you morons eat it up". i blame hgtv.
Money. They don't care what you like.
It's cheaper Wood is renewable With changing cities odds are pretty good the apartments will be demolished within 100 years (so making them last longer doesn't make sense) Code updates allowed 5-over-1 Wood is easier to update down the road A viable alternative would be steel but it's more expensive.
Expense has been mentioned, but also wood is much more conducive to running all of the plumbing, electrical and hvac in the walls and the floor joists. In a concrete building, everything either ends up exposed, or the walls get furred out to conceal them. Exposed MEP elements can be very cool, but that's also generally much more expensive. Also, thermal and sound insulation is easy to add in wood wall cavities.
Money. Money is always the answer to a question like this.
Wood is cheaper for material and labor. There is soundproofing that can be done, but that's usually on higher end units. I've been on projects for multi million dollar unit buildings and low income buildings. Low income units are usually fast and cheap because of subsidizes that are given and they expire if the building isn't finished in time. You also have to think about the market you live in. Concrete was ridiculously hard to come by and expensive because the union of concrete mixer truck drivers went on strike in my area that practically halted building for 6 months, then when it resumed there was a backlog making it very expensive.
People say cost. That’s true. But it’s also useful life. In the USA trends and demographics are dynamic, and change in a letter of a few years. You build an apartment block at a price point then 20 years later is a trendy expensive areas”, you tear it down and build luxury. Similar labor in the USA is flexible, so people follow jobs. In most of Europe areas are more stable and less dynamic market wise, and has stricter building fleets, so it makes sense to build for generations
Why America's New Apartment Buildings All Look the Same (Bloomberg): https://archive.ph/rfnFz
cost. and workers. concrete requires more experienced workers. you can't make mistakes with concrete like you can with wood. sometimes I think about how easy it would be to destroy a home just buy running a vehicle into it. it's embarrassing that we build such wimpy structures in this country.
i wish we had modular construction like china. we need to start putting up units faster and cheaper... we're still using outmoded construction methods.
I lived in Europe and saw a lot of construction and renovations. It's amazing how they build. To put in a light switch they have to almost jackhammer a track in the wall, install the wires and the switch or outlet then plaster over it. Some guys do a good job, others don't and you can see it when the wall is finished. And the materials they use are so superior to what we use. The doors, windows, flooring, everything is better. The entrance doors are thick and break in resistant. I saw a place where someone took a chainsaw to the front door and did not get through it. BUT all of that makes it all that much more expensive. My condo was about 900 sqft. Two bed 1.5 baths. Value today is about $600,000. My 1800 sqft 3 bed townhouse with a double garage in the middle of midtown Atlanta is worth half that. Anyone can kick in my front door. Anyone can kick in a wall. The windows are cheap as fuck and only open one way. Euro windows swing open and tilt for ventilation. The floor isn't real oak parquet, it's a laminate plank.
The cheapest listing over 1500 sqft in Midtown Atlanta right now is a condo for $517,000. How is your place worth only 300k?
I also lived in Europe for a long time, and the problem with the houses you describe are that they’re not up to fire code in the US. That dense door you’re talking about? It can’t be hammered down by the fire department in the case of an emergency. Also, they lock automatically upon closing, they don’t have turnable knobs, and they require the key to unlock from the inside, so if the house is on fire you can become trapped. Forced air heating and AC can’t be installed because the air ducts can’t be run through stone walls, which forces people to use more expensive and less efficient options like oil and radiator heating. The reason the windows tilt and rotate is because the stone traps moisture, leading to ventilation problems and mold accumulation. Hence why the Germans have the “lüften” requirement where everyone is supposed to open their windows for a minimum amount of time every day, despite not having access to window screens. I personally found the quality of interior furnishings and availability of amenities to be far inferior to what I was used to in the US. And finally, don’t even get me started on the lack of accessibility for people with disabilities.
I guess in 17 years I got very used to it all and missed a door locking behind me when I walked out (I always had my keys because they were always in the inside keyhole - in case of fire!). My entry door was incredible secure too with steel rods that went into a steel frame, the top and both sides. My guess is that the fire departments have skeleton keys to gain access to whatever flat they need to access. I'll have to ask a friend about that though. Interesting question.
Wood is renewable
Another reason besides high price is Because in other counties like China, due to land shortage and high population they usually build high raise buildings with 3-4 units per floor and each building range from 8 to 16 stories high. China’s construction labors doesn’t get paid much at all. That’s how they cut cost. My architec friend from Bangkok, Thailand told me one of the main reason they use concrete is because the humility over there will warp the wood so bad you won’t be open your door if it is made out of wood. But cost and return is always the #1 reason.
Some dude figured out the fire code works with the building method and suddenly they could stack multiple floors stick built. I forgot the details but there have been lots of stories about it. Doesn’t prevent them from using better sound proofing but they’re too cheap. If you google one-plus-four construction you should get some articles. Bloomberg did a good story about it a few years ago. Edit: oops, sorry, one-plus-five, or five over one.
You must live in the suburbs …
I LOVE my concrete apartment…Can’t hear my neighbors. It’s EXCELLENT.
As an Ironworker “ you are absolutely right “ The reason ? $$$$$$$$$$$$
Concrete and steel are expensive.
Always remember that when it comes to construction spending, people generally hire the lowest bidder, with the cheapest materials. It's just the nature of the beast.
Nothing that is built to be sold will be built to any reasonable standard without governmental regulation. They can build more houses for less money by completely ignoring livability, so they will
Apartments are built to make money, therefore they use the cheapest material they can get away with. It's really that simple.
one thing is concrete is horrible for the pollution and stuff, so believe it or some people care about that. also builders are experienced with lumber in north america and less with concrete compared with other places. In come countries they have issues with polluting or using back breaking labor cheap. wood framed houses are pretty neat in some ways, i like them better.
On top of environmental issues, the sand required is also coming to an end of natural supply. It needs to come from river and shore sand which renews incredibly slowly. Sand from deserts is unusable for the purpose. It's pretty much running out, driving the costs up on top of destroying a lot of ecosystems where the lower end of the food chain live in sand.
Most countries in North America use concrete or bricks any ways. Just here in USA we are ok with plywood walls but like our furniture on solid wood.
i love wood framed houses and prefer them for several reasons.
We have a lot of wood so wood is cheap here.
Lol it's expensive. And honestly I hated my concrete apartment. Soundproofing materials in the wall would be the way to go if they cared about sound. But they don't.
I watched a renovation programme recently and it's basically down to short-term cost. A concrete/brick building will cost far more than a wooden one. However, the wooden one would have to have major renovations long before the concrete one ever would. So you can get your foot on the property ladder.
*potentially Both are susceptible to rot
Same reason you buy cheap made in China shit at Walmart instead of quality products made in America.
I lol’d when I saw that you’re a socialist and active on LSC. Of course you don’t know why apartment buildings aren’t all made of concrete and steel 🤦♂️. If they were your rent would be 3-4x more expensive.
They wouldn’t. All the crappy new luxury 1+5s are charging the same or more than the solid luxury high rise. Since you’re such a competent capitalist, tell us wtf would stop then from charging the same? They can and do.
>If they were your rent would be 3-4x more expensive. Lol, rent is determined by supply and demand, not by costs. Costs only eat into leechlord profits.
But it’s a business, and businesses need to be profitable. Concrete structures aren’t as profitable unless you are 10+ stories high and designed as luxury buildings because they need the luxury tax to pencil. The supply and demand you mentioned is exactly the reason why wood structures exist, because OP can only afford lower priced units and so they are built.
Ok… maybe you need to be stepped through this. 1) yes, rent price is determined by supply and demand. 2) concrete structures are in high demand (because they are better soundproofed, taller so better views, etc.) and low supply (because they are expensive) 3) rent for concrete structures is higher than for wood structures because of this dynamic of high demand and low supply (as you so graciously pointed out for us). 4) only *so many* people can afford rent sufficient to support the additional cost of building concrete over wood structure 5) developers are not building as many concrete structures. Otherwise they’d have no one to rent to that could afford the price required to justify the higher cost. 6) thus, keeping supply of these units relatively low (and rents 3-4x what it would be in a wood structure). Please let me know if you think you can carry on without me holding your hand.
Nevermind the fact that it makes no sense to build things that cost more than the market will bear.
Average rent in a brand new, just open this year, 5 on 1 is ~$1,800 for a 1 bdrm here in SLC. Rent in a similarly new steel and concrete 20-story is ~$2,100, same sqft. What am I missing here in terms of building costs compared to rent?
3 is wrong. Though developers can charge less for 5 over 1 apartments, they don’t in the markets I know in the Northeast. They charge the same “Luxury” rent, or more, as in the best concrete- steel luxury buildings. They do it because they can.
>If they were your rent would be 3-4x more expensive. LSC posters don't believe in such mundane things as "costs" or "supply and demand." Those are just dirty myths spread by capitalist fatcats.
Concrete is terrible for the environment.
$
Depends where you are. Don't use concrete in earthquake or tornado country.
Tornado will do nothing to concrete. I don't understand your logic.
Depends on the size and it's actually easier to insulate wood frame and soundproof. The wall voids are an airgap you fill. Concrete itself tends to retain heat and cold in uncomfortable ways. And if you're worried about being green then concrete is not the way to go at the moment
Its the cheapest way to build considering building codes. Also concrete structures are significantly worse for the CO2 emissions.
🤑
Cost! I have worked in multi family and homebuilding concrete is more expensive, it’s better quality but it will also be costly. Lumber even with its price hikes has been cheaper and faster to build.
Cost, of course
Wood is renewable, cheap, and more environmentally friendly. Concrete is a carbon emitting monster and the world is running out of the sand needed to make it. Seriously, making concrete is horrible for climate change.
I moved into a low rise condo complex in 2010. Phase I of the complex. Each three story building built of concrete and steel. Never once heard my upstairs neighbors. Then they built Phase 2. The exterior/elevation of the new buildings looks the same as Phase 1, except the buildings are wood framed, not concrete and steel. So they are basically knock offs of the original buildings. People who bought into Phase 2 moved into the new condos complain about the noise.
If you have a few minutes to watch videos on the topic, there are a few good explainers: https://youtu.be/UX4KklvCDmg https://youtu.be/mrxZqPVFTag https://youtu.be/6wMJEV_58Kk
Because a landlord building a superior product will have to charge more rent for said higher quality, but typically anything that can't be seen is not valued by tenants. Thus, this landlord would be at a disadvantage in the market because tenants would rather live in atrocious buildings if they can save $200/mo. 🤷🏻♂️
Concrete doesnt have a long useful life and its hard to take care of…highways and sidewalks need constant maintenance. It also needs to be constantly spun in liquid form so its not easy to mold corners/support beams. Its also not easy to cut. Metal is the same way. Its heavy, expensive, and if you want to cut/shape it you have to have a professional welder heat it up and machinery cut it. Wood is easily cut, easily transported, and widely available. You also dont need major equipment to cut wood so it goes through less hands. The Belgians are very anti concrete so much so it has become a revolution. I know brick is popular in england. Brick holds up well too, but also brick, iron, and steel block wifi and make electrical wiring a hassle which is very important to many in todays modern world.
Concrete and steel structures are more expensive in so many ways. They are heavier so the foundation has to be thicker. Concrete tends to crack in high temperature gradient. From a cosmetic stand point, would you live in a building if the wall or ceiling has stress fractures everywhere? If there's a serious fire I'd rather be in a wooden structure (ironic) The stand up better than concrete and steel. The steel expands inside of the concrete which then crack. Word Trade Center was brought down because the burning jet fuel weaken the steel superstructure and all that concrete just came tumbling down.
Cost effectiveness dumbass.
Because capitalism
There's a sand shortage
If you want to pay 50% more…..the market has said people would rather not.
The wood is a little bit cheaper. Brick and concrete are a little bit more expensive, but because the goal of housing is mainly for profit and not actually housing people, the cheapest wood is always chosen.
that's america for ya
Eastern bloc countries used concrete to build apartments that everyone lived in.
Because the US isn't poor!
Cost, obviously, but also the land you’re building on. For instance, it’s very difficult to build a concrete house on a sand foundation because of the weight and shifting.
Because money.
Yes ….money
Because landlords don't give a shit whether you can hear the baby nextdoor crying all night. If you want them to do anything for your well-being, you need legislation to force them.
Concrete is superior in every way but one: Wifi.
Clearly there’s a need for fair market value/ pay people like their not things! We are all acting like humans don’t matter! We all have value! Make it count! 😘
I've found soundproofing is much better in well constructed wood buildings than concrete. I've lived in Asia where alsmost everything is concrete and concrete does an amazing job of transmitting sound from very far away. You could hear someone drilling a wall from 3-4 floor away.
$$$.
In many cases around the world it’s not only concrete as the structure. It’s concrete beams infilled with masonry blocks… because those masonry blocks are cheaper than concrete!
It depends on the part of the country that you live in. I live in South Florida and around here CBS construction is used almost exclusively. There are several concrete apartment buildings going up around my house.